I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists.
Each week we invite you into a real session where we help people confront their biggest problems and then give them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made in their lives.
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
This week, a man with unprocessed grief from his childhood struggles to trust himself and to set boundaries in his relationships.
I was kind of head over heels for him at the beginning. There were a few red flags where I started to be a little bit concerned. I did kind of do mental gymnastics trying to justify his lies first.
A quick note, Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical or psychologe advice, and is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for
length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Hey Laurie, Hey guy.
So what do we have today?
So today we have a letter about relationships. So here's the letter, Dear therapists. My mom passed away when I was nine years old. Even though I was very young, I was incredibly close to her and felt like I had a deep and special connection with her. My family and I were with her when she died at home, and this moment has always stuck with me. I've never been able to share this experience with anybody, despite it being the most painful thing I've gone through, and it's
still something I think about very often. I'm fortunate to have a loving family. However, we never really talked about my mum's death or the impact it had on us, and I feel that this has created an enormous amount of distance between us all. My relationship with my father is particularly distant and his lack of communication throughout my
life has often left me feeling very alone. We have also had some big clashes in the past, including one very painful argument regarding my mom's wedding ring and who she left it for after she passed away. On top of this, I've struggled to have a healthy romantic relationship. Almost all of the people I've had a relationship with have cheated on me or lied, and I've often accepted
behavior which, upon reflection, was totally unacceptable. I know that I have some attachment issues after my mom passed away, and I have been trying hard to work through that, but I feel a bit lost as to what I need to do to try and build healthy relationships with a romantic partner, and also my family love to hear any advice you may have, Adam Well.
I think it's great that Adam is writing to us and realizes that there might be some connection between the unprocessed grief with his mom and what he's struggling with in his romantic relationships.
I agree, and I think it's interesting that he's been unable to talk about the death with anyone, not just with his family who are reluctant to talk about it. But he's not found anyone in his life, not a friend, not a lover that he felt comfortable discussing it with. And that's something I'm curious about. So there's a lot we need to find out here. Let's go and talk to him.
You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists. Adam.
Hi, Laurie, Hi Guy. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
You're very welcome and thank you for coming on the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself, just about your current life. How old you are so we have a general picture of you.
Okay, So I'm thirty one, I'm single, I live alone. I now live abroad, originally from the UK, but I moved away from home when I was about eighteen, so quite young. I went back to study, but as soon as I could, I left the country and moved abroad.
Tell us a little bit about your relationships that you wrote to us about. When was the last time you were in a relationship, how long do they tend to last? And what has happened.
Sure, So, my last relationship ended about two years ago, and I was in that relationship for about two years. It started fairly quickly. I think it was within four weeks we decided that we would be boyfriends together. I was kind of head over heels for him, but at the beginning there were a few red flags where I started to be a little bit concerned. But because of my previous relationships where I've been cheated on before, I
decided to just start afresh. It wasn't fair for him to be under that same bracket, as I thought, you know, it's a new relationship, it's a new guy, so it's only fair to give him a fresh start.
To what were the red flags?
Yeah, so it was there were several things. I mean, I think at the beginning of the relationship, I mean, I had made very clear that I wanted this to be a very honest relationship. So I think upfront I said about how important honesty was to me. Then I noticed some little lies coming through here and there, nothing too big, just things like him lying about where he was and what he was doing. Later on, I found out that he was taking a holiday, and he was
going on holiday with a guy. At first, I was a little bit funny about it, but I thought, you know, it's that they could just be friends, so that's fine. But as time went on, you know, I was never allowed to know who this person was. I was never now to meet them, So that was one big red flag that I had, But I just kind of brushed it aside, thinking that, you know, it was probably just in my head and I needed to relax a little bit.
What strikes me is that you said there were some red flags, nothing too big, Just like he lied about where he was and who he was with. Yeah, that's not a little thing in a relationship. So I just wonder how you come to think of that as as a little thing.
I think I'm just putting it into proportion to the things that later came. Things started to get really out of hand in terms of his lying.
You're just starting this relationship and he's already lying about where he is, and then he actually refuses to give you information about who he's going away on holiday with. It's obviously very suspicious that he's not willing to tell you. There's obviously something he's hiding. How are you able to put that aside? What were the justifications you gave to yourself about why you can maybe put something that significant aside.
That's a good question, and I'm not sure how I did it, but I did kind of do mental gymnastics trying to justify his lies. And I think I was really just head over heels and really liked him and really believed him when he said there wasn't anything to worry about. So I did just put my trust in him. I tried to ignore the fact that, you know, these kinds of things that happened to me in the past
and start afresh. I had also been very clear from the start, you know, before we actually agree to start a relationship together, that was going to be the thing that was like, couldn't negotiate on, Like I just wanted complete honesty, and so I think I took him at his word, even though there were these obvious red flags.
Did you confront him at some point about the fact that he was being secretive and that he had lied about his whereabouts in the past.
I did. I did, and it wasn't met very well. He turned it around and made it seem like I was being very intrusive and overly possessive, which of course, when somebody says that to you, you do immediately back off, because that's not the kind of boyfriend that I wanted to be. When that happened, it really made me think like, oh, okay, maybe I am overthinking this too much. It kind of made me take a step back and think, just okay, relaxed.
So how did things progress with this guy?
Well, it wasn't until that holiday that he took where things really started to become clear that he was lying about lots of things. I found out that he had invited several guys to go on that holiday actually, and whilst he was there, he was using all these dating apps. He later admitted that he did meet people when he was away on holiday, and so obviously I was devastated by that. When I confronted him about this, well he
was still on holiday. He immediately went into like apology mode and it was just endless emails and messages and I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which made me think, Okay, like he's messed up, he's messed up, and maybe I need to rethink about giving him a second chance.
Have you given people second chances like that in your other relationships?
Yeah? Yeah, I have done several times pretty much for the same thing, lying cheating. It's been pretty much the same topics each time.
And given that the second chances haven't worked out so well, what made you think I'm going to give this guy a second chance.
I found it very, very difficult to let go of the relationship. Like I said, I was head over heels. I was really into him, and I think in my mind at that point it seemed just like when I was younger as well. I made mistakes, so I thought, you know, people do change, People mess up and then they learned from it, but he didn't.
So you know, it's interesting, Adam, because you said you've had other relationships where people lied and cheated and asked for a second chance, and you gave them the second chance, and they continued to lie and cheat. So then you do that a second time. And the question is when you miss up by giving people second chances after lying and cheating repeatedly, do you learn from it?
Yeah, that's interesting. I've not really thought about it like that before. I think more and more I've become the very intolerant of lying, and I've been trying to notice these red flags sooner than I had before and take them more seriously. But still I think I had that thing in my mind which just kind of talks me out a bit and talks me down, and yeah, it's just not very helpful for building a healthy relationship.
Well, I think the thing is that you start the relationship with the right statement. And I'm going to elaborate a little bit. You've been hurt before. You didn't say that part to us, but I'm assuming you've said that to them, and therefore honesty is very important to me.
I have a zero tolerance policy for lying. Then you catch him on small eyes like where he was, and the zero tolerance turns into tolerance, and so the messaging to him becomes I have a zero tolerance policy for lying, but if I catch you and a lie, I'll forgive you. And there's the mixed message that you give him about his untruths, and so he knows that you really are again but you will forgive it. And that's not the
message you want to send. The message you want to send is I'm against it, and you know there will be consequences if it continues. But do you see that despite your intention, the message you're giving in your actions by forgiving. It's confusing.
No, you're exactly right. It's all kind of empty, empty threats or empty promises of you know, if this happened, this is how I'm going to walk away, this is what's going to happen. But actually, in the end, it never did. I just kept tolerating it. Yeah.
The other thing I'm thinking about is how it doesn't sound like he cared much about how much this hurt you. And as guy was saying, you have a history with this, he was aware of it, so you would think he would be extra sensitive to your needs there. And when he did apologize and send that string of apology because he was caught when he was on holiday, it was more about he wanted you to forgive him. I didn't get the sense that it was about I've really hurt you,
I've really betrayed your trust. I know this is going to be really hard to repair. This must have been devastating for you.
That's exactly right. And later on, when there were all these other things that came out, the same thing happened where I'd get endless messages and endless emails and it was a lot of words, but there wasn't much meaning behind it. There was a lot of you know, I even said to him at one point. You know, there's a difference between saying sorry and an apology. You know, anybody can say sorry, but an apology is really sort of taking time to think about what you did, how
much it hurt, and how to move forwards. And there was none of that.
Have you had any relationships, even if short, that you would consider successful and that maybe it didn't work out, it just didn't, you know, make the leap from infatuation to love or some but that there was honesty, there was good communication, you felt heard, scene supported. Did you have any experiences like that?
Yeah? Actually, after my last relationship, the one that was pretty much a disaster, about seven months later, I decided to try dating again and I met somebody who was very nice and he had also been in the same situation as I had been. His ex boyfriend had cheated a lot and treated him quite badly, so we kind of bonded over that experience. And it was such a different experience from with my ex. There was just this feeling of calm. There wasn't this feeling of secrecy or
things being hidden, and it didn't last very long. It was only about four maybe five months and he moved away, So it ended purely because of that. Yeah, that was like a big shock to the system, because you know, while it was very positive, there was a piece of me that was thinking things are going a little bit too smoothly. You know, when is something gonna come up, or when is this big surprise going to happen, because it's bound to happen again.
Right when you said that there was this feeling of calm, I was wondering if there was also a feeling of when is the other shoe going to drop? This feeling of constant, low level.
Dread exactly exactly that was the fear. I didn't act upon it. I wasn't questioning or asking all these things. I kind of just decided to go with the flow and see how it went. But there was that feeling of things are going a little too well. And I've been here before where things just seemed great. But looking back, I think it really was just that we were able to bond over that experience and just knowing that's sort of this unspoken thing between us that we wouldn't ever do that to each other.
Did you know from the beginning that he was going to move away, and if you didn't, was that upsetting to you?
It was upsetting, but he was moving away to pursue his career, and so I said to him, like, I fully support that. You've got to do what's right for you in your life right now. It was very sad, though, because I think we were reaching the point where we were going to be together. He had met my friends, I'd met his friends, which was a big thing for me, and things just felt good. And the way that he spoke to me, the way he treated me, was just
something that I hadn't experienced in a long time. So it was sad to say goodbye to that.
And so was there any conversation about maybe finding a way to stay together, like you going to where he was, or doing a long distance relationship, or ultimately figuring out a way that you could be in the same place together given how well it was going for both of you.
One of my friends had brought that up, but at the time it just didn't seem viable. I have a business here, so I wasn't able to and you know, he was studying a new career, so you know he was going to be meeting lots of new people and going to be very busy, and only four months that would be we had been together, so it seemed it would be a little bit too quick to make that step forwards of you know, could we move to the
same country together, could we even live together? You know, it seemed a little bit too fast, and it felt quite natural just to let it go and say goodbye.
That ended maybe about a year and a half ago.
Yes, that's right, Adam.
What's so encouraging there is that small, short relationship gave you a taste of what it should feel like when you don't have to be anxious and worried and checking up and not getting information and catching small discrepancies and truth and those kinds of things. When someone's communicative and can show up for you and has the same priorities and values that you do in terms of honesty and cheating,
you got to take of that. I'm curious, since then, then, have you been able to keep that taste going in your latest elections of people you dated?
Well, since him, I haven't dated anybody. And you know, after that relationship, I kind of made the choice that no, I think I just need to take time and be with myself, and that is kind of extended into you know, I'm single, I don't need to have anybody. But I think part of it is a bit worried that, you know, I'm going to find somebody again, and this whole cycle of lying and cheating is going to thought again, and
I just don't have the energy for that anymore. It's just too emotionally draining.
I want to just go back to my question from earlier. So were only together four months and he was leaving to go change careers. So he must have known at some point in those four months, pretty early on that he would be leaving, right.
Yeah, that's interesting actually, because things were going incredibly well, and towards the end, I noticed he started to distance himself quite quickly compared to how close we were. He distanced himself quite quickly. So I did confront him and ask him like, what is going on, Like are you, you know, changing your mind about us? And that's when he told me that he was leaving. And he also thought it was a good idea that we kind of pumped the brakes considering that he would be leaving.
But here's another example of even though he didn't cheat on you, there seemed to be open lines of communications compared to your other relationships. This was a big omission that he had this thing going on that he was going to be leaving, and instead of telling you that, he just pulled back and then you had to confront him. And then he was honest with you about what was happening, but he wasn't proactive about coming to you and saying
here's what's happening. So I think when you talk about this year and a half of feeling like, well, I don't need anyone, it sounds like from a very young age you've been quite lonely. Your mother died when you were nine, your family didn't talk about it, You've had some difficulty with your father, and you've had these relationships that have been very distressing. And I can see why it might feel safer to say I would rather be self sufficient than acknowledge my desire to have a partner.
But I think you wrote to us because you do have a desire to.
Have a partner.
You just want to have a partner in a way that you haven't quite experienced yet and want to figure out how to do that. And so I think when we talk about honesty, let's start with honesty towards yourself, which is, it'll be really important for you to be honest with yourself that you do have this desire that you are lonely, that you would like to have a satisfying, mutually fulfilling, trusting relationship. When other people lie to us,
sometimes we end up lying to ourselves. It just becomes such a part of the atmosphere that there's just nobody acknowledging the truth. So I want if anyone's going to be honest with you, I want you to be honest with you.
Yeah, now I think you're right. I think I noticed that in hindsight afterwards with my ex that there were so many red flags at one point, and I was just turning a blind eye, and I asked myself why I was doing that. I don't think I realized at the time I was lying to myself that these things weren't really happening when it was quite obvious that they were.
And so it's interesting there, Adam, because two things that are important to you, honesty and trust are the things you need to repair within yourself in a way. The honesty, as Laur just explained, and the trust as well. And you to trust yourself. Means that when you say I won't accept something, you indeed won't and you won't turn a blind eye to so many incidences of that very
thing that you said you won't accept. When you set a standard for yourself that then you reflect to the other person, But then you don't maintain that standard, you begin to lose trust in yourself as well. So both honesty and trust are things you need to repair within yourself in your own internal dialogue before you can repair them outside.
I have been avoiding it, I think, deep down, if I ask myself, it has been more about me avoiding being hurt. And there are a lot of excuses as to why, you know, my career, I'm too busy, I this, that and the other, But actually I think it's those are all just excuses.
Can we hear a little bit more about where some of this might have started. Can we hear a little bit more about what happened when you were nine?
Yeah? So my mom passed away when I was nine years old. She had cancer. She was diagnosed when I was about four years old, but of course I wasn't really aware of what was going on until I was about seven eight. That's when I really started to get a deeper understanding of her illness and what that meant.
You got a deeper understanding because your parents communicated that to you, or because you just intuited it from watching what was going on around you.
Both, I think both. My dad was very honest with us, especially towards the end. We would have family meetings where we would sit down and he would tell us, you know, the condition that my mom was in. But also before that, I would notice that I spent so much of my time with her as a kid, and there are a lot of times where I could see that she was
just really really struggling. And at school as well. I mean, all the teachers knew as well, so they would pull me aside sometimes and kind of try and get me to talk about it or ask me if I'm okay. So there was just a lot of things that I noticed. My dad did, like speak to us very honestly about what was going to happen.
What about your mom, did she speak to you about what was happening?
No, that's a good question. I think actually in all of these family meetings, I think my mom found it probably too difficult to be there. You know, I have two sisters, and I think she probably thought it was going to be too difficult to see our reaction when we were told that she was dying and that, you know, there was nothing that could be done to stop that.
I'm sure there was a period when she thought that she might be able to get through the cancer. Did she ever say to you, hey, I'm sick, but we're treating it, and you know, we're hoping it's going to be okay. It just was never acknowledged that she was sick by her.
I have no memories really of her talking about it. I remember when she was, you know, in her last few days, she spoke to us because we were with her, and you know, she said that she didn't want us to be upset about what was happening. Other than that, I don't have any memories of her, you know, actively talking about it with us. I think she probably tried to avoid talking about it as much as possible.
I can understand why, as your mother, it must have been so painful for her to imagine how upsetting it would be for you and your sisters to lose her. But the message that she gave trying to protect you was don't be upset about this incredibly life changing, upsetting thing. And I'm thinking about how you started the conversation today saying, yeah, he didn't tell me where he was and he was not truthful about that, but it was just small things.
I wasn't really upset. So this idea that you're not supposed to be upset about something that is incredibly upsetting has lived inside of you for quite a long time. She wasn't saying, I know this is going to be really upsetting. I love you so much. It's so painful to know that I'm not going to be here for you. It's okay, don't be upset, but I'm dying, but don't
be upset. And I understand her intention was loving, but the message is something that you seem to keep living out in your relationships.
Yeah, it's interesting. With many different things, that's been the case where I, you know, something might be quite painful, and I don't give it the space that it probably needs, and I do minimize it and I avoid talking about it with lots of things. But I mean, especially you know the topic of my mom. I've never really shared it with anybody, even like my close relationships. It's something that I feel like I shouldn't burden them with that.
It's something that people don't need to hear. It's a lot to take in, So I just don't.
But that there is the legacy of that last wish of your mom, don't be upset, And I think that you internalize that to mean that your feelings can be a burden to other people. And I'm wondering that was your mom. You mentioned that teachers pulled you out to check in and see how you were doing because they
knew what was going on. But in your family, in these family meetings, in one on ones with your dad or your sisters, was there any discussion of how you felt, not just what was going on, but how you felt about what was going on. Was that something that was discussed in the family.
No, from my memory, no, it was more about the things that were happening and what will happen. We didn't actually talk much about how we felt, you know, before, during, and after, we never really had that discussion.
Have you ever tried in your family since to have a talk with anyone, whether your sisters or your dad, about how you felt about your mom dying when you were so young, No, we haven't.
You know, when it comes to my mom's birthday and her death anniversary. We were all share a message saying that we're thinking about her. That's as deep as it's gone. I mean, when we're all together, we might share a couple of memories here and there, but we never talked about the actual experience of what we went through as a family.
How old were your sisters when your mom died?
I was nine. I had one sister that was eleven and thirteen, So.
You were really the youngest and the least able probably to know how to talk about what was going on.
Yeah.
Yeah, so you're nine years old and your mom passes away. What was the grieving like for you? We were to see you then, what would we be seeing that was going on with you? So you weren't talking about how you felt, but how were you managing? What did it look like to see you managing in the aftermath?
When my dad told us that she was going to die, that was a moment that we all broke down as a family. And also the night that she did, she died at home. She decided she wanted to be at home for her last few days. I mean I was hysterically crying watching it happen. In front of me, and I think the following days. I mean I remember bits and pieces, but a lot of it is just kind
of blank. I mean, I know that I was really hurt and really upset, but as very little that I remember about what happened after that she died.
When you got the news that your mother was going to die, and you said you broke down and were crying, was there anyone there to comfort you? What happened to that moment?
I remember it quite clearly, and we were all sat in different places in our living room, and I think we all just broke down. We didn't know come together or embrace each other or anything like that. We all kind of just sat in our own place and cried separately.
And no one came and hugged you or tried to comfort you in any way.
I'm sure my dad maybe did at some point, but that wasn't something that he really did too much from my childhood. He didn't really hug and.
Once you got that news, your mom wasn't in the room when that news was delivered to you, So did everybody just not acknowledge it to your mom? Meaning nobody said, hey, mom, we're so sad. Dad told us that you're going to die, so you just carried on with your mom as if things were normal. Nobody acknowledged that this news had been delivered to the three of you.
No.
No, So there's something that you learned there very young, which is you can have huge feelings for really good reason, and you have to carry them by yourself. You don't share them with people. People don't ask you about them, you don't ask other people who you know are having similar feelings about theirs. This idea of you have to
go on as if things are normal. And I'm saying that in that way because it's a bit the rationalization you had about the cheating with the longer relationship, which is that there was a part of you that just wanted to go on as if things were normal. You had to learn how to compartmentalize or put aside your feelings or just sit with them yourself without being able
to share them from a really young age. You've gotten really good at it, at being able to sit with big feelings and not have them validated by anyone, and then you end up questioning their validity because if you couldn't even get validation for how horrible and difficult it was when your mom was dying and then died in the home and in front of you, and that couldn't get validated externally, verbally or in other kinds of ways. Then that's the legacy that you kind of bring forth.
The idea of my feelings won't get validated, there's no point in really talking about them too much.
Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't until quite recently that somebody, you know, I've been doing therapy as well, that I was asked, how who do you share this stuff with? Who do you share these memories with about your mom or that experience? And it was only then that I kind of looked back and I thought, for over twenty years, I haven't shared it with anybody. You know, there are very specific things about that experience which even the closest people in my life, I'd never shared that with them at all.
Can you tell us a little bit about what happened between you and your dad since then? Did your father remarry or was it you and your sisters and your dad after that?
Yeah, so my family's a little bit complicated. He didn't remarry, but he was in a very long term relationship. I think when I was about eleven, he got into a new relationship and they were together for about ten years. They broke up in the end. So she was a big part of my life growing up, but she didn't have much experience with kids. She kind of just got thrown in with three teenagers at that point.
When she moved in, did the house still have the presence of your mom and it meaning there was still pictures of for you kids, so that both things could co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then there's this new person in the house. Was there any kind of presence of your mom that continued in the house after she died?
You know, when she moved in, a lot did change. A lot changed quite quickly. You know, the color of the walls, you know the decorations, and it was a very very different dial to what we had before. There were a few pictures I think of my mum in the house, but not many, not many at all.
What was that like for you when she moves in and the house changes, because as kids, that often feels like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your mom or being replaced, et cetera. Do you remember how you felt about her moving in and about the I'm going to guess that nobody asked you how you felt about her moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect. But do you remember how you felt about her moving in and those changes?
No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me. But it did feel like a betrayal. I don't think I have a voice that it felt like a lot of my mum's essence was being quite like literally being painted over, you know. And yeah, it was sad. It was sad to see these things that you know, I considered a a home be changed now. It was quite confusing as well.
There wasn't a lot of awareness of how having a connection to your mom would be important to the kids in the house. It seems like not only were you not asked about it, but there was just a lack of awareness that there might even be feelings about it.
Yeah, yeah, I think because it wasn't something that we talked about. For me, it just seemed somewhat normal, and you know, with somebody else moving into the house, it was already a big change. It was like a big change to the way that we did things and our schedules. And it was also at the point of time in my life where I was changing as well as changing school, and all these new things were happening. It was overwhelming, and I was very little discussion about what was going on.
Did you have friends at school at that time.
I had one good friend at the time when I was quite young. I mean, a lot of my friends knew that my mom had passed away, but it was never something that we talked about.
You said that you left home and home being home and country when you were really young. It sounded a little bit like you were in a hurry to lead. Tell me if that's the case, and tell me, if so, why you were in a hurry to leave.
No, you're right, it was pretty much as soon as I turned eighteen, getting on a plane and going halfway across the world. I think there was just a lot about my home life which I wasn't very happy about. I did feel alone. I don't think at that point I had many people in my life that I would have considered close. It just made sense to me to get up and completely change the environment and to see what happened. And in many ways it was very good. I made lots of really close friends by doing that
and had lots of great experiences. But You're right, it was a get up and go as quickly as I could.
You talked a little bit in your letter about the struggles that you've had with your dad. Can you tell us about those.
Yeah. From a young age, I was very close with my mom, and I always was a little bit scared of my dad, not because he was, you know, a bad guy or anything. It was just, you know, sometimes he could lose his temper and I found that a little bit scary, and so from a young age, I was always quite kept my distance from him and was spent all my time with my mom. After my mom passed away, we did spend time together, and we would have some pretty big arguments as well. We had like
a few big blowouts. Even up until recently, we've had some huge arguments. You know. There be certainly been times where I've been the instigator or pushing his buttons, but I think a lot of them has also been him unfairly being angry at me over something and even afterwards not quite getting an apology. It's kind of the same thing where it's a sorry, but it's not really a deep apology about what happened and what went wrong.
I'm just noticing how you minimize his anger. You said, well, I kind of avoided him when I was younger because he had a little bit of a temper. You know, a temper from an adult when you're young and small is incredibly scary, very frightening to see an adult with that big kind of rage, even if other times he's
very loving and kind. I just want you to notice how much you minimize the experiences that happened to you that elicits some kind of emotion in you, like fear or sadness, or even your own anger at your boyfriend for cheating or at your father for being angry with you. These external things get minimized, and then you don't allow yourself to feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging how these things are affecting you.
Yeah, it's interesting. A friend actually pointed that out to me not too long ago, where they said, you know, you, even when you're telling somebody about something bad that happened, you always kind of give a little clause at the beginning at the end, where for example, with my ex, I would say, you know, I wasn't a perfect boyfriend either, so obviously I didn't do anything to the same levels as you did, but there would always be some kind of bookended by these things about myself.
You mentioned in your letter an incident with your mom's wedding and that was a big dispute with your dad who that would be left for. Can you tell us about what happened there?
Yeah, it was all quite dramatic. My elder sister she when she got married, my dad decided to give her the wedding ring, and my brother in law at the time was very gracious. He came to me and my other sister and asked if we felt okay with the ring going towards my elder sister. I was totally fine with it. I felt very happy that it would go to her and she was going to start this family
and it was going to be great. But a few weeks later I got an email from my auntie and she was the one who had been taking care of the ring, and the email was worded in such a way that made me question why she was sending this email. And she asked me if I was sure that I was okay with the ring going to my sister, and I said, of course, why would I have a problem, And she told me, well, actually, Mom asked me to keep the ring for you for when you were ready
to get married. The ring was kept in the photo frame of a picture of me and my mom. I started to question a lot of things as well, like it makes sense that it went to my auntie rather than my dad because he's so disorganized and you know, has a terrible memory. And a friend pointed out as well that actually, it kind of makes sense that you'd leave it to the boy in the family because they would probably use it to propose. So I decided, with no intention of trying to get the ring at all,
to talk to my dad about it. And I started the conversation by saying, first of all, that this has nothing to do with like the thing, like I don't want to get anything from this, but also it was super important that there were no arguments in the family about this, and he agreed to that. And when I started to tell him what my auntie had told me,
he just immediately shut it down. He said, no, there was no way that my mom would have left me the ring, and that if I was so desperate for a ring, that I could have his wedding ring after he died. And at that point I just I think I just hung up the phone and he didn't keep the promise. He brought it up with my auntie and they had a falling out over it as well. Luckily there on good terms now, but I think at the time it was quite heated.
There was something so moving to hear that your mom thought so much about it that she left it for you, with this picture of her and you together, gave it to her sister, knowing her husband was disorganized for the one day, years in the future, years and years in the future from where she was. You might want to propose, and you might want the ring. What was it like for you to find out that she had given such thought to it, that she had asked to do that
that your aunt had kept for so many years. What was that like to hear that?
It was such a huge shock that nobody had ever mentioned this to me. And on some level it felt like I had communicated with my mom all this time after she had passed away. It felt like she had sent me a message. I think I spent a long time just crying, because it really did feel like after all that time, we still had that special connection that I had when I was a kid, and that she was thinking about me so far ahead and thinking about all these things that I would do in my life.
So yeah, it was incredibly meaningful. But then again, on the other hand, it felt like, well, is this real like because apparently it's not. According to my dad.
It sounds like the experience that you have repeatedly with people when you confront them with something that you know and they tell you that that's not what's happening. So you say, hey, you going on holiday. This doesn't sound right. Oh, no, you're being paranoid. So I think that you do know a lot, but you've had this experience repeatedly of being told that what you know is not true, and that can be incredibly confusing and it can really get in
the way of trusting yourself. And I'm so glad to hear that you were able to feel when you were told that your mom had left this to you and that beautiful story. I was tearing up hearing that part about the photo and how you were nine years old and she thought, I can't be there for him, but I'm going to connect with him in this way that I have him in mind, and I want him to
know that I have him in mind. That's so lovely and you were able to feel that, and then you went to your father and he denied that those were the facts. But what he couldn't deny was your experience. And that's the part I want you to hold on to. Nobody can take your experience away from you unless you let that. And it sounds like in your relationships you
often let people take your experience away from you. I'm feeling this, but no, I'm not going to feel this because they're telling me this other thing.
Yeah, that sounds pretty right to me. It's in many different aspects. I feel like I'm often being told that, no, it's not that way, it's this way, And like you said, it's very confusing and very disorientating, and it's hard to know which way is up.
Are you dating now? Did you say? Are you still on the shelf with that?
I have a dating app, and you know, I talk to people here and there, and on occasion, I might talk to somebody that I think, Oh, this person's interesting, and then when it gets to the point of okay, let's meet up, I generally make excuses. I just think, like, oh, I just now, it's not a good time. There's a lot going on and it never gets to the point where I go on a date.
I just go back to one thing with your aunt. So when she told you this, you said, you've really never talked about your mom's death with anyone. Was there an opening there to talk with your aunt about your mom's death?
You know, recently I did bring something up about my mom, and for me, I felt like I had said a little bit too much about how I felt growing up, and this was all done by message, so it wasn't a great medium to do it. And it wasn't until the next day, I think she replied saying like, oh that you know, you've given me a lot to think about, you know, just talking about my experiences as a kid, and that made it immediately made me feel like, oh, I've shared too much. I shouldn't have said that.
What is it you said?
I think it was that our family would have benefited from therapy like family therapy, that we never spoke about it, and I understood that it was probably because we were all in pain, I think, I said. I don't think it's as a coincidence that I and actually my other sister moved halfway across the world as soon as we could I think there was something going on with us that that made us want to leave as quickly as we could.
And that's what your aunt said. You're giving me a lot to think about because there's a bit of an invitation in what you're saying to her to have a conversation.
It made me feel like I said just a little bit too much, that perhaps I was saying that she wasn't there enough for us as kids. I think maybe she started to feel a little bit guilty that she hadn't been there enough to support us. I might be wrong. This is just coming from what I think, but it made me feel like, Okay, this is not something I can keep talking about with her. I didn't want to make her feel any guilt or any burden.
So we're back to burden again. Guy had said that your note was maybe an invitation, but I think that she in her response was offering you an invitation too. She wasn't saying everybody did the best they could, or she didn't not respond. She said, this has given me a lot to think about, which is very open ended, and it makes me feel like there could have been a potential opening there. But then your younger feelings came in of I don't want to be a burden. Don't
be upset. Everybody did the best they could. However, you justify it to yourself. You know, I don't want to bring up with my boyfriends that they're cheating or lying because I don't want to burden people with my emotional reaction. That's really interesting to me how you interpret something very differently from the way that I'm hearing it, not being in your experience. You interpret it as, Oh, I said too much, I was a burden. She must feel accused.
You create all these stories around it. You just don't know if those stories are there.
Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought of her response in that light, and now you say it, it makes a lot more sense that she was. It was more of a positive. I think that she was oneting to take some time to think about what I said.
The thing that stops you from having these conversations different feelings of yes, my feelings would be a burden, or the other person might not want to But any kind of interpretation always leads to the same path of so let's not have these kinds of conversations. And that's the thing to pay attention to. And despite the evidence all roads lead to Okay, I won't have the conversation, I won't date. I'll use the app, but basically not really.
You know, you're swiping and you're chatting, but you're not meeting. There's again this big, big hesitancy to kind of engage in the things that will evoke emotion.
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. I totally see that.
So, Adam, we have some advice for you. We would like you to this week email or text your sisters and your dad and tell them that you've been thinking about your mum a lot lately, and you know that they think about her as well, and that you would like it if on the next anniversary of her death, you all got on a call and talked about a little bit, shared some memories of her that would make you feel good and you would really like that. The emphasis is that you would like that to happen. You're
owning that that's something that you want. Now, I'm sure you're thinking, I don't know what kind of response is I will get from them. Neither do we. But the goal here is to represent how you feel, and that is something that you would like. It is a door you would like to open. So that's the first part of the assignment.
And what's important about that, as guy was saying, is that this isn't so much about whether they respond or if they respond in a way that you would like. It's that you are putting what you would like out there so that you can exercise that muscle and get used to doing that. And that leads us into the second part of the advice, which is that what happened with your aunt is that when she told you about the wedding ring, it happened on text or on email.
It was not where she could see you. She does not know that you broke down crying, you had this really lovely feeling of being connected to your mom again. And also we think you made some interpretations about her response to your other text about being a burden. We think it was sort of potentially an invitation, and so we would like you to contact your aunt and say to her, you know, when you told me about the
wedding ring, it moved me so much. It was so nice to hear something about my mom and me from you. And when I sent you that other text and you said it was a lot to think about, I was really glad that I could share that with you. And now that I'm in my thirties and I don't have memories of my mom past nine years old, it would mean so much to me if maybe you could share with me some parts of my mom that I either don't remember or happened before I was born. I just
wanted to get to know her better. I would love to hear stories about me and my mom when I was little. What was my mom like as a little girl, What are some funny stories that happened in her life? If you could help me get to know her better, that would mean so much to me. And see what happens when you open the door that way with her.
So one last piece of advice, Adam, and that's about your dating life. As we said, you need to restore a sense of trust with yourself and restore that sense of honesty with yourself, so you really listen to how you feel and you don't marginalize it and push it aside. And to that end, would like you to do two things.
Number one, we'd like you to write a pact with yourself that you'll stick to from here on, with items such as, since honesty is really important for me, I will let that person know whoever the next potential boyfriend is that it is important to me if I catch them lying, I will let them know that that's not something I can tolerate, such that if it happens again, I will be out because I can't be in a relationship where I'm worrying all the time that the person's
not being honest with me. But the pact is one strike, and one strike too, they're out. And other items that you want to put there that you know that you've not done a good enough job in the past of sticking to what's true for you and what's important for you. It'll be easy for you to stick to a written pact that you should have in your pocket when you go on dates, just to remind you that this is something that you've promised yourself. And then this week you're
on the apps, you've been chatting. We would like you to set up one date, and what we want you to note on that date is how it feels going in there with this new determination, this pact in your pocket, that you are going to be operating very very differently, and that you're going to stay really close to your truth because your truth is I don't abide the lying and the cheating. I can't be in a relationship where I'm anxious all the time because the person isn't honest.
I've tasted what it's like to be with somebody I can trust. That's what I'm looking for. And with that new idea in mind, would like you to know what your experience of that first date is.
So this is a contract between you and you, not between you and the other person. It's between you and you. You can't control whether other people are going to betray you, but if you stop betraying yourself, we think you're going to pick better partners as a result of that.
Yeah. Now, I like that idea of making a pact of myself and writing it out.
I thought. And once you do that, you'll know one thing. Somebody is going to lie to me. I'll only do it once. Somebody's going to cheat. We'll only do it once because I won't be there for the second time. So that makes it feel much safer. Yeah, because it can't keep happening, you won't let it.
Yeah, that's an interesting way. I've never thought of it like that. It can't happen more than once. If I said this, this boundary or this pact. Yeah, no, I like that idea. Thank you. I'm nervous but excited at the same time that thank you for your advice. I appreciate it.
You're welcome.
You know, often as therapists, we hear something in a first session that becomes sort of the touchstone of what keeps getting that person stuck. And what stands out to me was when he was talking about sitting at his mother's deathbed and her saying to the children, please don't be upset. And as a parent myself, I understand so much of the pain his mother must have been in and not wanting the kids to feel that. But the message and the legacy of that moment was don't be
a burden, don't be upset. You're feeling these huge feelings, but it's not okay to feel that, And that has been the narrative in the family even after the mother died, where they just did not talk about the immense pain
that they were all feeling in different ways. When there's a death in a family, everybody in the family experiences it in a different way from their own perspectives and their own pain, and nobody felt that it was okay to talk about it, and that is what he has inherited in terms of his adult relationships.
You're absolutely right. And the other snapshot that I have is that scene after she dies, with all four of them sitting in a room, each crying alone. Is the other kind of set up there in that family. Of what other feelings you have, it's not only we don't talk about them, cry alone, but I'm hotened because he did seem quite interested in breaking some of these molds and having some of these conversations or trying to at least be beyond, and he will see what happens with
the family. It feels risky and dangerous to share these feelings when you were so early on taught not to right.
Not only to not share them, but he came to a place where he doesn't even trust that like when his mom, should I feel upset with his boyfriends? Should I be upset about this little thing? Like he didn't tell me where he was, and it takes going on holiday with other men for it to become something that he can acknowledge is maybe not okay. It's not only not being able to feel the feelings, but not being able to trust that the feelings you're feeling are valid.
One thing I was so moved by was that he said he had never really talked about any of this with other people, and he was so open and willing to share this with us, and I felt so honored by this experience. I think we always feel honored that people share their lives with us, but this one in particular really really moved me.
You're listening to deer therapists. We'll be back after a short break. So we heard from Adam and we gave him a lot to do. Let's see how that went.
Hi guy, Hi Laurie. So it's been a week and I wanted to let you know what's happened since you gave me your advice. The first piece was to reach out to my family and to tell them I'd like to do a call on my mom's death anniversary. I actually changed it a little bit to my mom's birthday
because that's just coming up much sooner. My family were a little slow to respond, but everybody did eventually reply, and they all said how much they loved the idea of taking some time to talk about memories that we have with my mom and share some stories. So that was really great. Secondly, I got in touch with my aunt. I explained to her that I wanted to try to connect more with the family on the topic of my mom,
and she was really supportive of that. It does still feel a little uncomfortable to have these discussions, but I think, as with anything, the more I do it, then the more I'll get better at it. I think at first it will probably be me trying to connect us all in this way, but I've realized in essence, I feel like this is a kind of way to keep my mom alive by sharing our memories and our stories about her.
Even though that she's gone, having that closeness to her is still very important to me, so thank you for that. My next assignment was to write a pact with myself, and this was really interesting because I actually had to stop and consider what it is that I do and don't want from a relationship, and writing it down made it feel much more tangible rather than just some vague
ideas floating around in my head. It gave me some confidence knowing that I can rely on this pack to come back to whenever I feel like something might be going wrong, and hearing you both talk about me being honest with myself. Also made me realize that I need to treat this promise to myself in the same way that I would treat a promise to a friend too.
And finally, you told me to go on a date, and I have to be honest, I was really finding any excuse not to do this, but I did, in fact go on a date and it was really nice. And also, having made that pack with myself, I felt like I was going into it much better in the case of red flag starting to pop up. So it's still a work in progress, but I feel like I'm pointing in the right direction. So thank you both so much for listening to me. I really appreciate all of
your insights and all of your advice as well. Thank you.
Well. I am so pleased for Adam, and I think one of the things that came out of this was being able to connect some of these earlier experiences of loss with what was happening in his relationships now and the earlier experience of not talking about things and how that translated to what he was doing in his relationships now and not being able to trust himself if something felt off.
I agree because I think the theme with Adam was avoidance. It was avoidance talking about his mum. It was avoidance dating. And I think that the push we gave him really work because he sounds less avoidant, even though he said he did try to avoid having the date, but he had a good experience. He sounds like he opened up a conduit in his family to talk about his mom again that I think everyone will end up benefiting from eventually.
And I think the beauty of what he did was seeing that people are really receptive. That he didn't know how they were going to reply, and we always said to him, it doesn't matter how they respond. What matters is that you do it. But then as a bonus to see and they were very receptive. And sometimes it takes one person in the family to be that person to start having conversations in a way that the rest
of the family wasn't able to do. And I think the takeaway here that I think many people can relate to is that when you avoid things, it creates so many problems. He wasn't just avoiding things with his family members and with the people that he was in relationships with. He was avoiding facing these things himself. And when we stop avoiding things with ourselves. This whole new world opens up next week. A couple struggles with a toxic ex spouse who's not happy about their upcoming marriage.
My ex wife is not happy about the fact that I am engaged to anyone, and she's not happy that I'm engaged in particular to Lily.
If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Elena Rosen, John Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez and Silver Lifton and special thanks to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio, Fisher Food