Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED. And this is Deo Therapists.
Each week we invite you into a session so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help other people come to understand themselves better and make changes in their lives.
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
This week, our fellow traveler is haunted by the ghost of his last relationship as he tries to move on with a new partner.
It's really hard for me to open up to him because every time in the past I have opened up about my feelings, it's either been met with rejection or met with OCD. So it's really hard for me to trust that I can have a safe person to open up to first.
A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Hi Laurie, Hi Guy. So I think today we're going to talk about relationships.
We are. We have a letter from someone who's in a new relationship but not quite over the old one, and it goes like this, Geotherapists. Eight months ago, I got out of an engagement with my five and a half year partner. It had been a long time coming and was ultimately better for the both of us. My
former fiance suffered from severe clinical OCD. His compulsions included excessive repeating of the same question that often centered around me or our relationship, for example, asking twenty times in a row if it was considered cheating, if he thought another man was attractive, or apologizing for sighing and making sure I knew that he wasn't mad at me. I had been having doubts about being in the relationship for
quite a while. The constant questions drove me to the point of almost madness and caused a lot of anxiety, self doubt, and insecurities within myself. I felt he never supported me or could be present for the things I needed because we were too focused on him and his needs. In the end, he was the one who ended things to me. It was completely out of the blue. I had shared my unhappiness with a relationship on multiple occasions. He always cried and said he would change, and told
me how much he wanted to be with me. He never once told me he was unhappy or that he needed something different from me. I think that was the hardest part. After all these years I had supported him, it was difficult to accept that he was the one who couldn't be with me anymore. I have since entered a new and much healthier relationship, and even though I have moved on from my ex and don't have feelings towards them anymore, it still seems like he occupies a
lot of my thoughts. I question what it says about me that I allowed myself to be in such an unhealthy relationship for so long can you help me find peace and closure with this toxic past. I don't want it to affect my current relationship, but sometimes feel so stuck in the past, even though my partner loves and supports me in the ways I need. I fear it's only a matter of time before things go wrong, or question if I'm missing signs that it won't work out, Doug.
This is so common when somebody has a relationship that really marked them in a way, even when they move on to a much healthier relationship, if they haven't processed what happened in the other relationship, meaning it's not just that the relationship is over, it's that they processed what happened during that time, they end up feeling like there's something incomplete, something unfinished, and they can't truly enjoy the new relationship.
It's also very common that when you're with somebody who has a manifest disorder, whether mental or physical, so much attention goes to that disorder that a lot of other things get lost. And OCD is very difficult because people who have it described that they feel harassed by it, but then often their partners can feel harassed by it as well, because it can be a very difficult disorder to live with.
And the thing too about the OCD is that it took up so much space in the relationship, and there was so much focus on what the partner was doing that was harmful in the relationship. But it takes two And there was a question that he asked, which I think was a good one that I want to explore with him, which was what was his role in this relationship and why was he in it for so long?
I agree, so let's go explore it with him.
You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. I'm laur Gottlieber and I'm.
Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hey Doug, welcome to the show.
Hey Lori, Hi Guy, how are you doing today.
We're well, Thanks for coming on the show.
Thank you for having me.
You're welcome. We'd like to hear a little bit more about the relationship, the ups and the downs. You mentioned some of the downs, but we'd like to hear a little bit about how bad things got, how good things were, and how things came to an end.
Sure, So Max and I met back in twenty fourteen, and we met through work and connected right off the bat. He was a really friendly guy and just really easy to talk to, so we started dating shortly after we met. Everything was good at first, and about six months in he told me that he battled OCD clinical OCD and OCD can manifest differently for everybody, but for Max in particular, he would have obsessive thoughts and then repeat himself many,
many times, and over time it progressively got worse. When we started dating, it was, you know, maybe once a day every other day he would start really focusing on something, and towards the end it was all the time. It was all day, every day, from morning to night, about really anything. It could have been. He was upset that he breathed wrong, or maybe he saw somebody attractive and thought, is that cheating? Do I want to be with this
guy more than with Doug? And I think over time I didn't realize how much it was weighing on me, and my anxiety and my depression was really starting to come through, because I mean, it was really just all about him and all about his problems, and towards the end it really got to the point where we were fighting in front of our friends. I would try to remove myself from the situation. I would lock myself in the bathroom in the bedroom, and he would pick the lock.
I would try to leave the house just to get some space, and he would call me thirty times in a row to turn off my phone. So it got really intense. Towards the end. At the four year mark, we got engaged, and I was really apprehensive about it, but I was also really hopeful because I thought maybe this would be a time in our relationship where we could really focus on starting fresh and starting new and really going forward with getting his OCD under control.
Doug, let me interrupt and ask you a question. It sounds like the relationship was so volatile and there was so much stress. You're fighting in front of friends, you were locking yourself in a room, he was picking the lock. What made you both decide we should take this to the next step and get engaged.
I think for both of us it was our first serious relationship, and all of our friends had been getting engaged. It just kind of made sense at the time of our life. And I really did love Max. I loved his family. I don't have a great relationship with my family, and his family fully embraced me from the very first time that we met, and I think I was really excited to have that in my life, and it was really important for me to have that. And we did
have a lot of good times together. We had a lot of great memories together, and I really had hope that it would get better. I knew the OCD would always be there, but I thought with therapy and with work, we could make it better. And it just never really got better.
And did you see Max doing any of those things, going to therapy or doing the work to change Based on the requests that you've made about the things that made you uncomfortable.
He would go to therapy every once in a while, it was always really hit or miss, and it was always me trying to push him to go. When I would have conversations about being unhappy. My two requests were, please see a therapist regularly, and please reach out to your friends or your family for support, because it all kind of fell on me. He never really did that consistently. He didn't feel comfortable talking to his friends or family.
He was very private about his OCD, so no, I never really saw much of an effort, which was where my frustration came in.
I hear how hard it was for you that he was having so much trouble with the OCD. Did he feel like he was having trouble with it? In other words, it sounds like you were the one saying, please get some help for this, and it sounds like it was pretty severe. Was he saying I don't like having to live this way or did he not feel like it was as big of an issue as you did.
He definitely knew it was an issue, and he struggled with it. And to him, going to therapy and doing the work was harder than living with his OCD. He wasn't willing to put in that work because a lot of the therapy was exposure and putting himself in situations that would make him feel uncomfortable, and he didn't want to do that.
And when did that become apparent to you that he didn't want to do that? How far into the relationship.
I would say probably after the first year, year and a half, and I continued to have hope that he would go and after we got engaged and I told him I'm going to put a pause on our wedding plans because I don't feel comfortable moving forward. I really need to see you making an effort to go to therapy and work on this, and he didn't. And after all these conversations, he would cry, he would say he was going to do the work. He would get me
flowers or write me letters, and nothing ever changed. And eventually I told him I'm not seeing a change, and he immediately got out his phone and made five appointments with a therapist. But at that point it was too little, too late, and ultimately he was the one who ended it with me. He told me he was unhappy, and that's the first time he had even said that to me, So it really came as a shock that he was unhappy with me when he never really voiced that.
You said, when he said, okay, I'm going to go do this, you said, it's too little too late. What do you mean you were seeing that he was finally doing the thing that you had waited years to happen. So why was it too little too late? You were still in the relationship, You hadn't broken up with him, You weren't planning to. He was the one who broke up with you.
Yeah, I was planning on breaking up with him. I knew that it wasn't good. I think I was so afraid to break up with him, and I just didn't have those feelings of love. I just felt mostly resentment.
Why were you afraid to break up with him?
I think I was afraid because I had never really been on my own. I had such a strong support system with his family and with his friends. I have my own friends and support system, but I just really didn't have a lot and his family and friends really supported me, and I was afraid that I was going to lose that with losing him, and I think the fear of an unknown future was scary to me too.
Having at least a plan moving forward with somebody and knowing kind of what my life was going to look like was comforting to me in a way, even though I was unhappy. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's kind of where I was.
I think it makes perfect sense. One of the things you keep mentioning is his family and the draw of his family, and I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your family and why you felt like you didn't have that in your family.
So I was raised in a very religious family. My dad is a pastor, my mom is a stay at home mom. I have two older sisters that are married with children and an older brother, and everybody in my family is pretty religious, and so when I came out around the age of twenty three, it really wasn't accepted with my family. They really I got kicked out of my parents' house. I moved in with my best friend. I had all of my stuff in two trash bags and just kind of said I'm moving in with you.
And it was really tough for a long time because my family has always stressed the importance of our family bond and I felt that I was disappointing them and letting them down. And even throughout my relationship with Max, my parents never asked about him. In five and a half years and being engaged, they never met him. They didn't really care. And I would be on a FaceTime or a video call and they would ask about my dog,
and then they wouldn't even mention anything about Max. So it was very much a part of my life that they did not want to know about.
And noticing that when you talk about Max, and also when you talk about your parents, you seem much more fluent in talking about their feelings and what they were going through than you are your own. So you said, you know, I felt like I really disappointed them. They felt very disappointed in my parents. But they kicked you out. You literally had to put your stuff in trash bags
and go to a friend. You didn't really mention and any feelings you might have had about that kind of disappointment of your parents actually not accepting you and kicking you out of the house. So first, I do want to hear what that was like for you, But I also want to ask you if that's something that you notice that you do that you really focus on the other person's feelings and yours come after that.
Yeah. I do have a hard time articulating my own feelings a lot of the times, and I think during that time, I just felt shame that I wasn't doing what my family thought was best for me. That's when I would say I really started feeling depressed and anxious. Was during that time.
You're saying that I felt shame for not doing what my family wanted, But it's actually not about what you're doing, it's about who you are.
Yeah, much more refound definitely, Yeah, And I felt very alone during that time, and I think with Max. That's all I did was put his feelings and needs before my own. And it is a very lonely feeling because I can sit here and explain what it's like to have somebody ask you the same question twenty times in a row, or from morning tonight, just non stop asking the same thing. And I would explain that to my friends. I would tell them about it. Sometimes they would even experience,
but they never really fully understood. So was a very lonely feeling because no one quite understands what it's like to go through that.
But even here in this example, who actually didn't tell us anything about how that feled to you? So how did that feel to you?
It was frustrating. It would anger me. I would get so angry so quick. Even if you just asked me the same question just a second time after the first time, I would instantly get super angry because it just was unending.
Did you ever get angry with your parents?
I did. I went about a year without speaking to them because I didn't know how to address what I was feeling. I didn't know how to talk to them about how they made me feel, and it was easier to just not respond. They live out of state, so it was really easy to just not talk to them.
Did you ever express that to them thereafter? How you felt the anger because to be kicked out of your house by your parents, who raised you and loved you and their other siblings, and I'm sure they were welcome, to be actually kicked out because of who you are, must feel horrible. Did you ever tell them? Do you ever have an opportunity in the years that followed to tell them what that was like for you?
I did. I started going to therapy myself, which was really profound, and my therapist helped me write a letter to them, because a lot of times when I would try speaking to my parents, they would my mom especially would overtalk or interrupt, or they would have Bible verses that counteracted what I would say or how I was feeling, and I was never able to fully articulate in those moments how I felt. So I was able to write them a letter and kind of laid everything out about
how I was feeling. And it felt really good to send that, And I would say, that's kind of the turning point in my family's relationship with me. It kind of opened up some conversations about what it was like to be me. I don't think they had really put themselves in my shoes, even though they still believe the same way. We can at least have a little bit more open conversations about being gay, about living my truth, and it's not as combative anymore as it had been previously.
How did they respond when they got that letter?
They wrote me a letter back, and they were understanding, I would say, where I was coming from. They still had a lot to say about how they felt and where they were coming from. And I think they felt terrible that they had put me through, that they had kind of had it in their minds that they were doing this out of love and because they cared about me,
and because they were worried about my future. They didn't realize that they were the ones that were hurting me and making me feel less than or unequal to my siblings.
What was your siblings reaction you talk about up being alone. Was it your parents and your siblings who reacted the same way, or did your siblings have a different reaction.
My sisters are both pretty religious as well. I would say it wasn't as extreme as my parents, But my one sister did say she didn't want me around her kids alone because she was worried that I would hurt them or influence them in some way. So that was really tough because I've always been really close with my sisters.
My brother is not super religious, so he was a little bit more accepting and understanding, but he kind of had his own problems with my parents, so he kind of stayed out of that family dynamic.
Has it changed with your sister since then so that you can be with her children and she has shifted in her views.
She has I feel like it's easier for me to talk to my sisters. I think they understand more how hurtful it has been for me, and they're much more open to even talking about my life and my partners, and they're fine with me being around their kids. So that definitely has improved over time.
How is your parents' relationship.
They have been together for a really long time, I think over forty years. They fought a lot when we were kids, and it was always behind closed doors. So my dad, like I said, as a pastor, so they could be fighting on the car on the way to church, and then when we would walk into church, everything would be fine and great. There were a lot of actually a lot of similarities between the way that my parents would fight and the way that Max and I would fight.
My mom wasn't ever diagnosed with OCD, and she refused to ever go and find not if she was. But there were so many similarities between my mom and Max, and it felt sometimes that I was just living the same life as my parents in a way.
What was it like with your mom? Can you give us an example of something that was similar?
Yeah, So she would be telling a story, for instance, about something that happened at church, and as one does in a conversation, we would interject, the kids would interject, my dad would interject, and she would get really frustrated by someone interrupting her, and she would start her whole
story all over again. She was also really really particular about how the house looked, about how tighty it was, how everything would be placed, and she would notice dust on the floor that nobody could see, and she would be really really ainal about trying to make sure everything was right. Even as kids, we would have to have our rooms clean and our beds made in the morning before we would go to school.
When did it occur to you that I have had OCD. Fiance has OCD one of those two connect for you.
I think when we when my fiance and I started fighting more, and I remember having one conversation that was pretty much identical to the conversations my parents would have, where my partner would be relentless in talking about the same thing over and over, and at first I would maybe try to stay on my ground or tell him he needed to stop, or even try the silent treatment, and he would just keep going and going until I would just throw my hands up and say, Okay, you're right, Yeah,
it's fine, or just agree with whatever he would say to move forward so that we weren't stuck on the same thing. And that was exactly what my dad did all the time, because he would rather just let it go than continue to argue. Because my mom would just keep going until everyone would agree with her.
See, in that moment, you might make that connection, but you literally have the model that but you don't get divorced over it, you don't break up over it. Your dad totivated it for the forty years and he was a trooper, so you must have felt like, no, this is not grounds for a breakup. Because my parents have a similar situation and they did not break up.
Yeah, exactly right.
When he broke up with you tell us about the context in which that happened.
So when we would have our conversations and I would come to him and tell him the things that I needed, like going to therapy or reaching out to his friends, he would always just ask me for patience, and he would always say how much he loved me and wanted
to make things work. And his mom is battling pancreatic cancer and has been battling that for almost two years now, and one night we were on the phone with her and praying with her, and when we got off the phone, he just started crying and asked him what was wrong, and I told him she's going to be okay, It's going to be okay, and he just said, I think we should break up. I'm unhappy, And at that exact moment, I felt relieved. I was sad, and I even said,
I agree. I think that this is the right decision for us. And we kind of just had a peaceful night where we reminisced about our past and we talked about our dog, and we just really kind of made a plan for the future. What we were going to do as far as a living situation. And then overnight, I think that's when the fear for me really started to set in and I thought, no, I don't want this to end. I think again, because I was just afraid.
And so the next day I wrote him a letter and I told him, I want to fight for this. I want to make this work. You have never told me what you needed from me, so I can give you what you need. Maybe we can go to couple's therapy, maybe we can take some time apart and think about it. And he was really really unwilling to do any of
that work. And I was really surprised by that and really hurt by that because I had tried for so long to make it work and he ended it because he was unhappy and I had no idea and wasn't willing to fight or work on anything.
Do you know why he was unhappy? Was able to tell you because for five and a half years he never told you that he was unhappy, And now he's saying, I don't want this, I've been unhappy.
He didn't did you ask him? I did ask him. He didn't really have a reason. He had a really hard time articulating it. I brought up the fact that it must be hard for him to know that I was really frustrated and that I would get really angry, and he kind of agreed to that, and I tried reaching out to his friends and his family to see if any of them had any further insight, and they didn't.
You said you were surprised that when you said, hey, I'll work on this, let's go to therapy, let's do something, that he wasn't willing to work on it. When for five and a half years he wasn't willing to work on things. Why were you surprised that here at the end, he yet again was not willing to work on things.
I think because we did have such a long relationship, and so I thought maybe maybe he would be able to tell me why he was upset or unhappy in therapy, or maybe things would come out that we could work on together to help our relationship.
So you said, at first I was relieved, and then overnight I got really scared and it was going to be scary because similar to when you had to pack everything into the two trash bags and move out of your parents' house, here, you were going to lose a lot, not just Max, but his family, his friends. His mom was going through this very very difficult illness, and you feared you were going to lose a family again. And I can understand why that was very scary for you
in that moment. How much were you in touch with the fact that I'm trying to get back together because I'm afraid of moving on alone versus no, I think this relationship can work out.
At the time, I didn't recognize that. Now that it's been a few months since we've ended things, I see that it was that. But at the time, I really was just trying to hold on to the future that I thought that we could have, and hold on to whatever relationship we had at that point, because I was afraid to be alone because, like you said, I had already lost my mind family unit, and it was really scary to think about losing another family unit.
So after the anxiety set in about being alone, what happened between you there? How did you actually split?
We actually lived together for a month after we split because our lease was not done yet and we were both looking for a place. And I kind of attribute that time as a really big blessing and a really big curse because we were able to talk about a lot of things that we had never talked about in the relationship. I got to bring up a lot of things that I felt frustrated by a lot of hurt that I had felt in the relationship. I got to bring up mostly because I was really upset during that time.
And even though you were talking a lot during that time, he still never was able to articulate how he came to the realization that he wasn't happy in the relationship. No, did you directly ask him?
Yeah?
I would ask him if there was somebody else and he would say no. I would ask him if it was because of the way I looked, and he said no. I asked him if it was because I smoked marijuana. He said no. And well, Doug, you're.
Sort of playing twenty questions as opposed to saying, can you tell me why you're unhappy in the relationship? Did you ever ask him that question?
No? I don't think I directly asked him in that way.
No.
Do you have an idea of why you didn't ask him.
Maybe I was afraid for him to tell me that it wasn't anything to do with me, that maybe it was just because we were incompatible.
Was that similar to what happened in your family, where there was this thing that people just knew but nobody wanted to say directly.
I think my siblings knew. They didn't really seem surprised when I came out to them. My parents seemed very surprised, but I had kept it a secret for so long, and I played the part of a straight man that went to church and loved God for so long that my parents just didn't expect that from me.
Do you have a thought about why you felt freer to bring up a lot of your feelings and frustrations in the relationship in that month after the breakup then you were before the breakup.
I think at that point I felt like I had nothing to lose. He clearly didn't want to be with me, and I wanted him to know how much he hurt me.
Was he responsive to the things that you said. Did he have an understanding or compassion that maybe he didn't have in the relationship.
I think so. I think he really realized how deep it went. I don't think he really understood that throughout the relationship, but he definitely apologized for the things that he said and did and I really relationship, and I know he meant it. I know that he really, he really did feel bad.
When guy was asking why it was easier to talk about this after the relationship had ended, and you said you had nothing to lose. What would have happened. Did you imagine if you had told him at the time when he made a remark that hurt you, to tell him, hey, that really hurt me. What do you think his response would have been.
When we first started dating and his OCD really started to come through, a lot of his OCD was about finding other men more attractive than me and wondering if that meant he was cheating. And on several occasions I brought up how much it hurt me because I felt like he didn't find me attractive. And when I would bring up something like that, he would apologize over and
over and over again and feel bad. And then when it would happen again and I would say that hurts me, that makes me feel insecure, than he would apologize again over and over and so it got to the point where I was like, well, I'm just not going to say anything because he's not listening to what I'm saying. It just triggers his OCD.
More so, what was different after you broke up because he still had OCD? What was more satisfying about his response after you broke up that you weren't getting when you brought it up during the relationship.
I think it seems like he understood it more so. For example, with me feeling unattractive, I would work out two times a day, I would count my calories, and he never knew that. I felt much more free to say those things after we had broken up. I think because of that, it made more sense to him, and I think he could really see a bigger picture than just those moments.
To me, it seems clear that the difference in how he responded after you had broken up was due significantly to the fact that you brought things up in a different way, that you were not holding back to you like, I'm just going to talk about how I feel. I'm not going to hold back. I'm not going to worry that this might break something because it's already broken. And
that evoked a different response. Are you clear that it was you speaking your truth about how you feel that garnered the better response, as opposed to him being in a different place.
I definitely understand that now, and that's something that I've been working on through therapy. I think I'm trying to learn how to be more vocal and say my needs and my feelings, but it is still difficult.
For me to do. So you broke up several months ago, and what is your contact like now with Max? And tell us also when and how you met your new boyfriend. Yeah.
Yeah, so Max and I still have contact. We had a dog together, so I will take the dog. We see each other. It is very cordial. I still talk with his mom and his sister regularly. It feels good to be on good terms with him. And I met my current boyfriend, Lucas through a mutual friend, and he is amazing. I feel like he gives me everything that I need out of a relationship. He gives me support, he gives me a listening ear. It feels very balanced
in the relationship. When I'm feeling anxious, he's there to support me. When he has things that he's going through, I can be there for him. I didn't realize how easy a relationship could be. I feel like I can be much more open and honest with Lucas, and I feel like I have been. There are definitely times when I get in my head or I don't feel comfortable being super open about how I'm feeling. He'll ask me, and I think that's kind of where I struggle is.
He'll ask me, and I'll say everything's fine, and he'll ask me again, and I can feel myself getting angry even though he's not doing it because he is OCD. I think I still have those thoughts where if somebody asked me the same question a couple of times, I just tense up. I think, after five and a half years of going through that.
Are you able to in those moments, even if you're getting annoyed, but tell him how you feel, or if you're preoccupied at you're distant, be able to share with him where you're aunt emotionally in that moment.
We have talked about that a couple of times, and I've kind of shared my story with Max and how that went, so he understands where I'm coming from, and we're able to get to the point now where I can say I'm really anxious, I can't talk about it right now, you can talk about it later, and we do when I'm a little bit more calm or in a better mind space that does work out really well for us in this new relationship.
What makes you anxious?
It's not necessarily anything with the relationship per se. Could just be work, it could be things with my family, it could be just the state of the world. And I think it's really hard for me to open up to him in certain ways about certain things because every time in the past that I've opened up about my feelings, it's either been met with rejection like my family, or met with OCD with Max. So it's really hard for me to trust that I can have a safe person to open up to.
Each of those things are all good. Further, for a conversation with a partner to say, you know, I'm just thinking about, well, I'm a little anxious about something. Let me tell you what's going on. Why not share that with him? Because as part of your pattern is I'm afraid to share enough about what I feel because in the past people haven't handled that well. I've told my parents about who I am, and I've gotten OCD responses from Max. But part of you recognizes that it's an
important thing to be able to do. Why not actually just tell them what the thing is that you're anxious about. That's when you would most benefit perhaps from that support and conversation. Why have to be unanxious before you can talk to him about what you're anxious about.
I just don't want to be a burden on anyone, Like my family, for instance, they are worried about me and going to heaven or my future, and I just always feel like when I do open up to people and when I'm honest with them, that I'm just being a burden to them.
I can see how in your mind you felt like you were a burden to your parents because they were going to have to quote unquote deal with the fact that this was going to affect their lives, the lives of their community, etc. Even though, of course being who you are is not a burden. And so I think Max was very convenient for you because you couldn't possibly be a burden to someone who has OCD. That takes up all the space in the relationship. There's no room
for you in the relationship. So in some ways you really resented it, but in other ways it was incredibly safe for you because you couldn't possibly bring your own stuff into that relationship with all that was going on.
You could have, you chose not to, we should say, because at the end you did, and here you are with Lucas, who is giving you all of that space, and on the one hand, you really crave that, and on the other hand, you're so comfortable with it because you're so afraid that if I share the truth of who I am, I will somehow disappoint, burden offend, be too much.
That's exactly it. I think I'm afraid sometimes to share how I feel with Lucas because with Max, he broke up with me out of the blue and I had no idea how he was feeling. And so I think that even amplifies that with Lucas, because I'm afraid that I'm going to say something wrong or that I'm going to be too much for him, and he's not going to want to take on that burden of me and maybe my problems.
I tend to think that the burden for Max in your relationship was that you didn't bring things up, and I think that it became a burden because it became all about him. And on the one hand, I think that he wanted to have somebody who was very supportive of what he was going through with the OCD. But on the other hand, I think there was also a part of him that wanted you to show up in the relationship, so it wasn't all about him, and the two of you never had the tools to discuss things
in that way. But you have an opportunity now to see that relationships thrive when both people are fully present and it's not about one person or the other.
Yeah, I think that's very true. I think in my mind I was supporting Max by being patient or listening or being there for him in those moments, but I never really gave him the opportunity to do that for me, or when I did, it wasn't fully the truth.
Maybe right. So you have this idea that if you bring things up, the relationship will break, and what I'm saying is if you do I won't bring things up, the relationship will break.
Yeah. I never thought about it that way.
And you said you're not quite sure why Max broke up with you, But the reality for Max was that his OCD was practically the entire relationship. It did take all the air out of the room and there was no balance. You mentioned your anxiety and your depression, but you mentioned them very fleetingly earlier on when we were talking here, and I think that's probably the representation they
got in the relationship with Max as well. They were known, but they weren't really brought up, and so your emotional struggles were not there other than your emotional struggles about Max's emotional struggles. And so for him, he's in a relationship with someone who's managing his issues and keep saying to him, this is really hard to manage. Can you get more help because this is really really hard for
me to manage, and he doesn't get more help. But then part of why the breakup probably came to him most because he didn't have solutions there. He didn't want to get more help, and he knew that all he was hearing from you was that it's too much, it's too much, it's too much. So he just took the executive decision then this is just not going to work.
Yeah, I never thought about it that way.
That makes a lot of sense, And.
I think what we don't want to see happen here is that there's a role reversal where in the first relationship, Max was having all these issues, but he wouldn't really deal with it, wouldn't really talk about it, and he just brought his symptoms, but he wouldn't really talk about what was underneath it. And we don't want to see that happen with Lucas, where Lucas is coming to you and saying, Hey, what's going on? Talk to me and you're not really talking about what's happening and what you're
doing to help manage it. You can share, hey, I'm working on this in therapy. You don't have to tell them all the details, but to really be present and not feel like, well, if I tell him, it's going to burden him and that's just going to push him away.
Yeah. I appreciate when he can be vulnerable and tell me what he's going through because he's able to talk about it so freely, and I really admire that. And he's given me no reason why I think that he wouldn't be willing to do that for me as well.
Can you tell us a little bit more about what I'm going to call intrusive thoughts since that's what Max had, The intrusive thoughts that you have when you're with Lucas that get in the way of you being in this relationship in a comfortable way.
There have been times with Lucas that he will ask me how I'm doing, and I'll get instantly annoyed, or maybe he's a little too much in my face and I just don't know how to react, and so my instant thought is to be like, this isn't going to work or I can't handle this.
What's an example of him being in your face?
It's literally just leaning in for a kiss or being close close proximity to my face, Like it's not it's not or anything aggressive or anything like that.
Oh, it's nice in your face, not the bad in your face.
Right, So all of this sounds like you're trying to protect your own space. But in your letter you talk about I'm worried that the other shoe's going to drop, that he's going to leave me. So I think you're doing all these things to protect yourself, like, oh, that's too close, that really nice gesture coming over to kiss me, that that normally would feel really good, feels a little scary because you don't want to get too close or too invested, because you wrote in your letter, I'm always
worried that something will go wrong. So can you talk more about that, because I think that's what this is really about.
Yeah, I think that's very true. I think I'm afraid to get too close because I don't want to get hurt again. I'm afraid to show Ucas the deeper parts of me because I'm afraid that it's going to be met with rejection. I even had a dream last night that Lucas broke up with me, and I was really upset and sad about it, and I reached out to him today and told him about it, and he said,
I love you so much. I wouldn't do that. But I think those are just fears that are just there because of being blindsided by Max after such a tumultuous relationship.
I think those fears are there because of being blindsided by your parents. And I think that there was a way that MAX worked very well for you because it kept you so safe to always be in the position of you are not making me happy, I might break up with you, which gives you power and keeps you from being in that vulnerable position of you might not
want to stay with me. How could you not want to stay with me if I put up with all of your OCD day in and day out for five and a half years, not realizing that that doesn't work
for either person. And so as you think about this abandonment fear that permeates your relationship with Lucas to the point that you're dreaming of him breaking up with you, it sounds like getting in touch with some of those feelings that maybe you haven't expressed fully about what it was like to pack up those two trash bags and leave your house might be really helpful now that you're in a more balanced relationship.
Yeah, I do want to add one thing. There was the moment where your parents rejected you and kicked you out of the house, and there were the thousands of moments before you told them that you worried that they might. So that's why that's so impactful. Opened once, But do you worry that it would for probably many years before it actually did, and then it did, and that it's going to leave a mark.
And there's a way when we talk about OCD that when we imagine the horrible thing happening, it almost protects us. If I can imagine Lucas breaking up with me, even though it feels bad, at least I'm prepared in my mind. If I don't get too close to him at least it won't be so bad. So there's almost like an OCD like process going on with you where you're doing everything you can to protect yourself against what you see is almost inevitable.
Yeah, definitely.
What is your relationship like with Max's family? Now? You said you're still in touch with them?
Yeah. I am really close with his sister. I consider her my sister. Still. We visit together pretty frequently, and I still talk to his mom pretty regularly and just check in see how she's doing. They all still consider me a part of their family, and I still consider them my family.
So the catastrophe didn't happen.
No, I did not.
You thought that if you broke up you would lose this entire family, And you have a cordial relationship with Max and you still have this lovely relationship with his family and you see the dog right.
Yeah.
What about Lucas's family? What is your relationship like with them?
He has a pretty similar experience as me coming out to his family, so he is not super close with his parents and one of his brothers. I have met his other brother and his in law and they're wonderful. They're really sweet.
What has happened in the relationship with your family since you started dating Lucas.
I still haven't told my family that I'm dating Lucas. I think because I am enjoying my relationship with Lucas and I feel like bringing it up to my family will sort of tint that in a way. And I feel like my family and I's kind of in a better place right now because they think that I'm single, and so in a weird way, we're able to kind of talk without worrying about another partner that I might have.
So being single makes you less gay?
Well, my dad did ask me recently, where are you with the whole gay thing. I said, I'm not really sure what you're asking. I'm still gay if that's what you're at. And he said, so you really don't think that it's a choice, And I said, no, it's definitely not a choice. And that was kind of the end
of the conversation. But that's how it's always been, is every time they would bring it up to me, it was very this is really what you're choosing, This is against what God wants, and this is not what we want for you in your future.
It remains hurtful that they have to keep telling you in a consistent, practically OCD way. Let us know when you're done with being gay, and you know that it's still not okay with us, and it's still not okay with our God and all of those things. I mean, it's very unfortunate if it keeps coming up.
I feel bad not telling my family about Lucas because he is such a great person. But they're not going to see him the way that I see him. They're not going to see him as a great person. They're not going to see him as somebody who makes me happy. They're going to see him as somebody that's taking me away from my path to righteousness or God.
I think that the ways in which you have to protect yourself from the hurt from your parents bleeds into the way you feel like you have to protect yourself from Lucas, And sometimes you conflate the two. You're holding back with your parents because they will say hurtful things, but you're holding back with Lucas because you're afraid that he is also going to reject you, and we want to make sure that doesn't happen. We have some advice
we'd like to give you. We've been thinking about your situation and we've been seeing a lot of parallels between the relationship with Max and the relationship with Lucas, but
with the roles a little bit reversed. And so what we'd like you to do is we'd like you to have a conversation with Lucas where you say to him that even though I've told you a lot about my relationship with Max and how much I had to take care of him, I think in some ways it was very convenient for me because I didn't really have to deal with my own anxieties about rejection and love. And I don't want to become the Max to you in
our relationship. And there might be times when you come close to me and even though I really really want that, I get a little bit scared and you might feel a little bit rejected by me. And if that happens, please let me know, because I don't want you to feel that I am not wanting all of this delicious love that you were bringing to me. And so you're just opening the door for him to have a dialogue
about that. When he perceives that, because he will, he'll notice it, and then we want you to do something about it. And in your relationship with Max, you said the reason that he didn't want to go to therapy was because a lot of the treatment for OCD involves exposure to the very thing that makes the person anxious.
We want you to do a little bit of exposure therapy here, and what we mean by that is when Lucas comes toward you and you feel a little bit overwhelmed, it comes to kiss you and you feel like, uh, oh, I'm feeling a little vulnerable here. Instead of moving away from that, we want you to move toward that, but we want you to do it in a specific way.
I don't know how much you know about exposure therapy, but typically, let's say, if somebody is trying to get over a fear of snakes and into the snake pit they go, and it's like, ah, snakes, but it's all very very passive. You know, they're just sitting there with snakes doing what snakes do. And the thing about anxiety
is that we feel better when we're in control. So we want you, as part of your exposure therapy, to lean in to the love when it makes you a little anxious, but to do it in a way in which you have control, which with Lucas would look like he gets into your face, that you actually sit up taller or stand taller. You put your hands on his shoulders. You control the closeness. You bring him in to you for the embrace, you bring him into you for the kiss.
So you do the exposure therapy to yourself, but in a way that you actually have control, which makes it easier to tolerate. And each time he comes into your space after that conversation and you feel yourself having an anxious reaction or feeling flooded or overwhelmed, you lean in to the love and it's exposure therapy. It's going to be hard, but the more you do it, the quicker the anxiety associated with it goes down.
And what happens is the more you're exposed to it catastrophic happens, the more you can relax when it happens again.
There is one more piece. You were thinking about your parents and your relationship with them. You wrote them the letter initially, and we understand why it was hard to get a word in. You Mum would quote scripture. You know it would be a difficult conversation to have. So let's just get all my feelings out in an email. We think that might be a good approach this time as well, but we think there needs to be something
communicated about. Look, I'm in fact as offended by your views religiously as you are by mine, because in my religious views, in my philosophy, parenting is a virtue that should surpass all and so is unconditional love. And I am not interested in hearing anymore that you think I'm going to go to tell that you think who I am is wrong. I am not interested in hearing it. And if we're to have a relationship, it has to be one that starts at the basic respect of who
I am as a person. And I know you might have different feelings about it, have them, I do not want to hear them. And one day I'm going to find love again and I'm going to get married, and you are my family. I will invite you to that wedding, and if you want to have a relationship with me, you should come to it, because that's what loving families do. They put their differences aside to celebrate the happiness of
one another. And that's what I'm going to expect. But going forward, I do not want to hear from any of you that you have judgment about who I am as a person.
And this is going to go to your entire family, including your siblings. I'm thinking about your sister who wasn't going to come to your wedding. It's for all of them, and what we'd like you to do is not have expectations around how they respond, but we'd like you to think about what it feels like to be able to say that so directly to them. You're not asking them to change who they are, but you're asking them not to say to you, change who you are. And that's
a starting point. And so what you're asking for is reciprocity, which you didn't have with Max because you didn't ask for it, and we'd like you to ask for it this time.
Yes, you're very right.
I think when he was with Max, he found a relationship that would make him feel safe because you wouldn't have to deal with his own issues that he was bringing into it, but it wasn't necessarily satisfying. And now with Lucas, he's in a relationship that could be satisfying, but it doesn't necessarily feel safe because he's going to have to manage some of this abandonment. And I think
it's going to go really well with Lucas. This week, Lucas sounds like somebody who's really able to offer him something that he didn't have with his parents and didn't have with Max in the same way, and I think it's going to be tricky with his family.
I think it's going to go well with Lucas in the sense that he will do it and Lucas will respond well. I think though, that he's still going to feel anxious, because the idea of doing that is you keep doing it to beat down the anxiety. But at first the anxiety will be there, so he'll be doing the right thing and it won't feel like he's doing the right thing. So I just hope he can keep at it despite that, because that's how it is. At
the beginning. You're doing the thing you need, but your insights are telling you it's not, because that's what you've been avoiding.
And that's why we tell people do the up. Normally we say listen to your gut, do what your gut says, and when somebody is in this situation, we say your gut is lying to you. Do the opposite.
I actually say, much more, your gut is lying to you than I do. Follow your gut. I don't say for follow your gut a lot. I always say like no, no, don't listen to that. I think with his parents it's going to be much more problematic because I think they're going to have a hard time hearing it. I think they feel righteous and they feel that the perspective is correct and his is incorrect in every possible way. And I hope he can stand up and fight for what he deserves.
Either way, I think this is going to be a good experience for him. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
So we heard back from Doug and we asked him to do a couple of things, both of which involved him taking control. So let's see how that went for him.
Hey, Laurie and Guy. So I've been working on opening up and leaning into the love that Lucas has been showing me. We had a really open and honest conversation about how I can feel overwhelmed at times when he comes too close because I'm afraid of being too intimate and vulnerable with him. We talked about my family and I got to share with him how rejected I felt by them and how I was carrying a lot of
those fears and anxiety into our relationship. I was really nervous to have this conversation, but Lucas listened and was so supportive and understanding. I've also been working on the exposure piece and taking control in times when I'm feeling anxious. One time, after having this conversation, he noticed me pull away and asked if I was feeling overwhelmed. Normally I would have brushed those feelings aside and said I was fine, But this time I told him how it was feeling,
and it felt so good to voice that. After opening up to Lucas Moore and feeling how supportive and loving he was, through that, I felt so much closer with him. He was also able to be there for me as I worked on the second part of my assignment, writing a letter to my family. This part was really difficult for me, and I put it off as long as I could. I had a really hard time being vulnerable with them and sharing how their words and actions hurt
me again. My gut reaction was to avoid the confrontation and potential rejection, but I really want things to change. I started off by saying that I appreciated our relationship and that it has gotten better over the years, and that I wanted to continue building on that, but that
I also wanted to set some boundaries. I told them I no longer wanted to hear their judgment about who I am as a person, and that I'm not interested in hearing any more disrespectful and invalidating questions or comments to them. That I don't just want to be tolerated. I want to be loved fully for who I am, all the parts of me. I felt incredibly scared to hit that send button, and my anxiety was literally through
the roof. After I sent it, Lucas gave me a big hug, a kiss on the cheek, and told me how proud he was of me. It did feel like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders, and it also felt really good to not be alone in that moment. I haven't heard back from anyone yet, and even though I'm still really worried about what they'll say and how they'll respond, I'm hopeful that this will be the next step in having a healthier relationship with my family.
I know moving forward, it's still going to be a difficult journey for me to get to a place where I feel more comfortable being vulnerable, but I am committed to doing this work. Thank you again, I appreciate you both.
What Doug has come to realize through doing these exercizes is what so many of our patients in therapy come to realize, which is that when you try to protect yourself using a method that worked when you were younger, it generally doesn't work when you're older and you have agency.
And so when he started talking to Lucas about feeling overwhelmed what happens when he becomes vulnerable, he thought the world would crash down, and you know, Lucas would get rid of him, because that's what happened in his family. You can't talk about these things. But instead Lucas came closer, and not only did he come closer, but he ended up supporting him both in their relationship but also in
what he wanted to say to his family. So it was really a lesson in what happens when we can separate out how we protect ourselves as children and how that doesn't really protect us but actually holds us back as adults.
I completely agree, and I think that the fear hand about sending the email to his family was that he knew that if they responded poorly, he would have to
draw a line. And I think that the anxiety was because he knew that he had signed up for that, and I believe he will if they respond poorly, and I think they're likely to respond poorly from what I've heard so far, So I really hope if he's listening, he has Lucas around him when he needs to maintain that boundary, and that he does so with the same conviction with which he sent the email and with which he meant every word that he wrote.
I think the reason that he was ready now to send that letter with that boundary is that as he becomes more truthful with himself and with the relationships in his life, it's hard to not be truthful with these other relationships in his family, and he's ready to ask for that, And he has the support of someone who really sees the truth of who he is and is there for him. And I think that makes a big difference, so that no matter what his family does with that letter,
he can feel good that he sent it. Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week. Don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
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