Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists.
Each week we invite you into a session so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help other people come to understand themselves better and make changes in their lives.
So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week, a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband, her children, and her own emotions.
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of saying he loves me, like I have a hard time saying I love you back.
First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. So hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have this week at our box?
Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this, and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions. My issue is that I have a really difficult time
being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As much as I know that being there for them and accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance, I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect, and I find that I need to be away from them when they are having meltdowns. I disengage and even dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing them by not being there for them emotionally when they
need me most. I think part of this may have to do with my not being okay with my own negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help work and work with a few different therapists to help me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I can't engage and dive in all the way, and that really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.
So this is a really good example of what happened when you haven't had the experience of tolerating and embracing your own emotions, and they get triggered when other people around you have big am emotions and they're not shy about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit their emotions until they learn from the outside world that maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about is that somehow she's sending that message to them.
I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys, and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way. And it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well, un as she can change it.
Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating, that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether they're yours or there's someone's around you feel so big and so scary that you just don't want to be there, and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situation. And that's what she does. So let's go talk to her and find out a little bit more and see how we can help.
You're listening to deal with the therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa, Welcome to the show.
Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.
So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened then and what this awakening was about?
Sure, So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed by them. But I had no way of putting words to them. And then my husband and I separated for over a year, and during that year I did a lot of self growth, self healing work that made me really really aware of what was going on and gave me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.
You and your husband got back together after a year.
Yes.
Did that have something to do with the fact that you were feeling cut off from your emotions?
I think in all relationships there's two parts to making something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think that made it very difficult for my husband to know. Because he's a good person and wants to do good things for me, he just has no clue. He's not able to and to it that himself. So with that said, my husband and two of my children are on the
autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself in that world.
How long have you been married and how old are the four boys?
So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are seventeen twelve six and one.
You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big emotions when they have them. But tell us first how you deal with your own.
Oh, that's a big question. I started feeling them so before, I guess a couple of years ago. I was not allowing myself to feel them. I shut myself down. I was kind of like in survival mode. I tend to sit with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them. Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm in touch with them through my writing. So I write what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult
to figure it out. Like I would have a like a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling. And I'd go through all the words and like, oh my god, I'm feeling lonely and I'd laugh and cry. I figure it out heartbroken, and so I have words for them.
There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia, and it means that you don't have a vocabulary for what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what you're feeling, and so sometimes with little kids, we give them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue, It's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a place to start with. And I imagine that if you had no experience with your feelings, that you would have to learn a whole new vocabulary.
Yeah, for sure, it's like learning a new language. And it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.
We call that emotional literacy.
Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person, and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because he's on his back. But then I realized my part is was I was not in touch at all with what I was feeling. And you know, I put too much of the blame on him. I really did.
You said a few minutes ago that you were in survival mode. What were you trying to survive?
I would think I was just trying to survive day to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have four kids and some of them are very high needs, and I was just trying to keep it together, just to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and I wasn't able to do so so well that self care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the emotional stuff, I became so much better at taking care of myself.
Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom is from a broken home. She was putting faster care as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence. There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.
When is it you started to realize that your childhood wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had these challenges, because when we grow up, we don't know if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when did you start to get how different your upbringing was.
I think it started like in my twenties. I noticed things were off about it. I started seeing other families are different that fathers could be involved with their with their kids. I think as a child, I knew something was off. I just didn't know what.
Can you give us an example of something that felt off to you in retrospect?
My mother would have rages and become violent or just scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my father not giving her enough money to do shopping, and I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping such a stingy person, or you know, something a child
probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of left the room, and all of a sudden, she came behind me and started like punching me in my head and like and just you know, chasing me and saying I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're just I think anyone would really know that's off. So I think I've had to learn a lot on how to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.
You said you've been in therapy over these past years. How much work have you done on trying to really understand the experience you had and as a child through the eyes of someone who then does recognize what was acceptable and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you developed for the experiences that you went through.
The first therapist I saw her for many, many years, and she was like one of the CBT model kinds, and I don't think it really worked for me because she never reflected back. So I never had a sense of normalcy from her either, which means if I described something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily GOHI that's absolutely nuts. She would say, you know, how can we reframe that? Or it really didn't help me. I think about four years ago is when I really started looking at what happened
and seeing it and working on the self compassion. I think that has been key.
I think what you're really talking about is what we call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving that because when you were a girl, you must have wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this my fault? Or is something going on with my parents? And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes, this is not okay, Yes this is not about you, Yes this is something that's going on with your parents.
And so when you just told us the story of your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting your head. I don't know if you saw our faces, but we just empathized so much with the pain of that and the confusion and also the sense of betrayal that your parents are supposed to be the people who protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what to do with your own feelings when you have them.
So when you said I'm actually a very emotional person, we're all very emotional People's human is you just aren't used to feeling your emotions.
Yeah, I hear that. I totally hear that.
Tell us a little bit, then, what happens with your sons? You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us an example of the kinds of situations that you find yourself in with your sons that you have a hard time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.
Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop on the computer, and I said, we're gonna help mommy for a little bit first, and you know, although I know it's unexpected, he had a complete meltdown. He's twelve. So you wouldn't expect him to lie on the floor crying, screaming. It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens to me from loudness, but I can't manage it, like
I'm very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said, you know, like you have ten seconds to just get yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then I went out on the stroller with the baby and we went for a walk just to get a break from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm not there with him in the moment.
You said you have two sons who are on the spectrum? Is that one of the suns?
No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.
That reminds me a little bit of what happened with your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions to things and you had to sit there and think, well, is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve, so I don't think he should be doing that, But
at the same time, you're not really sure. I think that's sort of a replication of something that you've experienced your whole life, which is, how do I know what is typical acceptable?
Totally relate to that? That really resonates.
The example he gave Melissa is one in which your son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments like that.
I mean, my six year old might come and say his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it. I don't think I typically will respond with a lot
of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your brother's up right now and he can reach it, maybe he should be doing it on a different surface or in a different room with the door closes or something like that.
What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage, Because the response I just heard was very dis engaged.
I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied with it. It's really hard for me to even hear what he needs.
But what actually happens in your body? Can you close your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens when you go back and think about that.
I think I cringe, like at the noise, and I feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like I can't figure out what I need to do, you know. I like if my kids screaming for food and they're hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll open the fridge and not be able to get anything out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able to think, like, what is it I need to do next in order to help the child. I'm just more frozen.
So the noise really makes a big difference to you. There's about the view that knows, Yeah, I can't spend a second going oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before you go to but maybe put it on the table because you can reach the younger brother. Is that something that comes to you in hindsight or is that something you recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because of the noise.
I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it is in the moment, but I'm frozen, or because I feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just get away from me, Just go away, leave me alone.
Their pain is causing you so much distress when we feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical pain is often to lash out in anger, and our response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And so I'm assuming that at some of those moments their distress is triggering a lot of pain in you. Is that something that you've realized.
I didn't realize, but it sounds true.
So then it's about you being able to manage your pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.
I don't think I could do both at the same time.
The question is whether you're doing either of them, because it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing with yours or theirs.
Correct them not.
In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight, flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about fight or flight. In an argument like with a partner, for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze is very common, and I think what you're doing is you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying, it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your pain or your child's pain. You're standing in front of
the refrigerator with the door open, unable to move. And I think that one of the things that would be really helpful is to understand a little bit more about how in the last four years since you've had this awakening, you've come to manage your own emotions.
That's a big question. I think I do come to myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's say I goof up, I know, messed up something, and I just put my friends in there and say, you know, if she messed up, how would I feel? And I would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps.
I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate, just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.
Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot of noise that it feels a lot like the noise when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at, when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar to you.
I haven't put the two and two together. It feels more if I had to put a word, like like being in trouble, like being on the hot seat.
What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?
I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm supposed to do something with it.
So danger it feels like danger.
It does feel like danger.
Yes, Because when your parents would get very loud, you did feel like you were in trouble because they told you that you were the cause of their pain. Yes, And so every time you hear that loudness, you feel like I'm being blamed for this other person's pain, even though I'm not quite sure that I'm responsible for it.
Yes.
And now when your kids come to you and they get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming to you because he's really upset. You hear it as and you, mom should have done something about this, and you, mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower, and you, mom need to take away my anger and my pain at this, and you are to blame. I think that's the message that you're hearing from him.
Yeah, that sounds true.
When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens afterwards? When you unfreeze? Do you do any kind of repair work with your son about it later on?
I don't think I do most of the times, unless I like yell at the kid to just go away. I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you. I shouldn't have done that.
But you don't go back and say, do you want to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You don't go back and try and talk to them about it when they're calmer, when you're karmo, when they're not shouting, when you can think, I do not.
What do you think would happen if you did, I think they would explode again. I feel like it's going to dredge it up again for them and maybe for me.
So the feeling you have is that they will not be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened, that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze, and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's not entirely true, what if they can talk about it when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and
have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.
Oh, I think I could. I think I just have to be patient, you know, to wait for them to completely calm down, and then to bring it up again. I guess be brave enough to go back into the arena because.
The paradox of it is, and I think this might have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't give you that emotional validation, it makes you get louder because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it
the first time. So I think the way things happen now with you freezing and then being loud up this cycle, when in fact, if you approach them once they were calm and you will calm as well, what you would be pulling out of them would be something calmer that, in time would help them keep the lid perhaps on getting too loud when things happen, because they'd have a little bit more of the assurance that Mom can hear us even if we're not loud, and especially perhaps if we're not.
I think that would be great.
Can you tell us a little bit more about the marriage? You split up for a year, you got back together. What has it been like since you got back together? What has changed that has made it work better for both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.
So since we've got back what has changed, I feel is mostly on my part is the way I communicate, which means if I need something, I need to take a shower now, and I need you to watch the children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I think I would not have been able to say it that way. I just would have been I need a shower, and he'd say later and then forget later, and I would just explode that I need a shower at some point.
So I think being able just to verbalize what I need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he had no modeling, you know as well. For that. I feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know, stepping up and meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping
up a meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at self care, taking a lot of time for myself because I need a lot of quiet time just to be by myself.
About that. By the way, how much are the five guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult for mom? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?
I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.
That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you means it's a little annoying, but you can manage it makes you freeze. It really activates you, it triggers you. And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact that he could be useful by paying attention to the noise level in the house and stepping in, and that that would be a very helpful duty as a co
parent and as a husband on his part. Do you think he's clear enough that he can actually add value there more than he might be at the moment.
I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it in that way that I really need him to step up and help me with that. I find sometimes when I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.
What does that look like?
Well, he'll tell me that it's not normal, or that other people aren't like that, or I really should get help for that to deal with it a little better. It's not empathy.
I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well, you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize for it or feel that it's something that you need to fix.
I do own it, and I am very honest about being sensitive to many things. I do find that it turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you need to get help for that.
When you say that he's framing this as your issue. Did the two of you when you split up go to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then what did the two of you do to try to make things different so that you could come back to other.
Okay, so before this the split up, we saw many marriage counselors. Many of the times my husband would stop after four six sessions and say, you know, and now I know what I'm supposed to do, so I just need to do it. Until then there's no point in continuing.
Was it your idea to go to counseling?
I absolutely pushed it. It was, you know, it was pretty much a thread over has had many times where he'd start, stop, start, stop, in and out all the time, but never voluntarily saying, hey, maybe we should get some help. So what I did find helpful was during the split up, somebody had recommended a marriage coach and it was very
different from counseling, but it definitely was counseling. We worked with that person for maybe a year, just over a year, and she was incredible and skilled, and she was the one that helped me wake up to my emotions.
What happened between you and your husband during that time in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about you? And what did you learn about him?
I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let him have space to be there for me as a husband. I think he did step up to the plate to a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would have liked. I do think him moving back was premature. I felt like I was pressured into it and I wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and a little bit by the marriage coach.
Did your husband want to move back because he expressed missing you?
No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I think he was very shamed that a separation, I guess, and you know the circles where he's from, divorce is very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe like a failure. He felt rejected. There were many things he was feeling.
You say you'd think he felt meaning, you're guessing or he was able to articulate those to you.
He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one day and it would never work out, or things like that where I could kind of guess that he was fearing rejection.
But he never said I miss you.
You know what he said, I miss you. But again, with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation, or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm not saying I felt it.
I just want to say one thing about people on the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't express it well, and that is their challenge. So when you say there was no emotion in his voice when he said I miss you, that does not mean that he did not miss you. It means it might have sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.
But I think that you are very invested in this idea that because he's on the spectrum, that he doesn't have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings, he doesn't know what to do with them or how to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually have more in common than you realize. And the way that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.
And I think that it's something to consider that he does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't know how to express it. And I think that there's no coincidence that the two of you ended up together in the first place.
Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it was also I was questioning where he was coming from. So although he may say, you know, I miss you, it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have a place to live next month, like I really need to move in. I was unsure as to which one it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.
Right, And it could be lots of things like the logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do you notice that you didn't ask.
No, I didn't ask.
I judged right, and both of you do that to each other.
Yes.
Another thing to keep in mind with people on the spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues. And so you're smiling, tell me about that.
Yes, they definitely will the emotional cues, social cues, physical cues, every cue.
That.
Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a lot of cues out there and many of them did not come back. And when they miss them again, another misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it has to show up on your radar. And often what happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm glad you know that. I mean, you know that enough
to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that, because otherwise you can equally misjudge the lack of response is not caring when that's not the case. It might be caring.
He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, And you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because you can read them very easily. And I think that the reason that we're talking about your marriage even though you wrote about your children, Is that what the two of you do in practice together will help you so much with what you do and what you practice with your children.
Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes by just as the baby is knocking down the tower of the six year old, or whatever the comparable situation would be with any of the other boys, and he's actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts with the boys?
I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so just let him smash it down. He might like push his brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the big brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find that when he gets involved, I have a lot more damage to have to restore than just had he not got involved at all.
Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there because you had the response of, like, here's what you could have done differently rather than contain and validate the
frustration of the six year old. But since the boys haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you, is it something you would be able to have a conversation with your husband about that you might have to work together as a team so that you at least are able to do a little bit more of the emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support, either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down, lower your voices, or even just being there and standing
next to you. Often what happens when their two parents in the home, If one of them is trying to manage a situation and the other just comes and stands next to them, doesn't say a word, it really feels to the kids like you're operating as a team, and
it could feel to you like he's being supportive. But I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze in those moments, or I hope the kids bring it down in terms of volume by a notch so you can then use some of the skills that you've been practicing to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.
I love that idea of just his presence being there because I think that's something he can do and like not screw up.
I just want to also just have you notice your language and you said, I think that's something he can do and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right,
and I'm sure that he picks up on that. And when Guy was talking about presence and having his presence there and how that might be more containing for the children to see their parents as a team, I wonder if his presence is also comforting to you, not in terms of in front of the kids, but you did decide to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You decided you wanted to stay married to him. In what ways is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about the positive parts of this marriage.
That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.
I think part of why you might be dissociating is because what feels really difficult for you in this moment is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're
still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion and I'm wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.
I have the closest bond with a friend. She does not live in my state. I run a support group for women with men on the spectrum and she is part of it, and we became close to friends through that.
You're the one that's running the support group, and you get close to the person who's in the support group. So you can get close to someone because the situation almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group. It's your job to be open to the people in
the group. But I think that it might be very hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to get close And that's part of the trauma work that you've referred to, that there's probably some more work to be done there.
Yeah.
I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's happening with the boys. I think that to be there for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration of the tower being broken, is to love them in a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an unconscious way because your history is that loving family can still be very scary because The thing that stood out for me about your description of your mum in that scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,
it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult because when you grow up like that, you really don't know when it's coming, if it's from behind. And I think there's still work to be done there so that you can try and move past some of that trauma and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you from allowing yourself to get too close even to your children, to your husband, to people that you really actually do care about.
What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I know it's it's true.
Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that mean that you think there might be other feelings about your husband that when you stood up there at your wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person, did you feel like, yeah, he's okay? Or were you excited on some level to marry him even if you were also terrified.
I think part of me was excited on some level. I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.
For me that but also you keep the distance from him.
I do.
So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's in two parts. The first part is about the kids. We believe that you've been doing a lot of work on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings, and we know that you really want to connect more with your kids. We do understand that in the moment when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is going to be very difficult to do that fight flight or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard
to do something about in the moment. But you don't have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen, you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a little calmer. You included. So what would like you to do this week is to find opportunities that one of the kids is upset about something and you freeze up, and after that happens, we would like you to go to that child. And we're just going to use as an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.
If after that happens, you can go to your six year old and do the emotional validation that is, help him name the feeling, because you have the names now, And the simple way to do that is to say to him something like, I know that when you're working on a tower and you've been putting effort into it and you're building it, and when your brother comes and topples it over, that can be really frustrating and you can be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay
that you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation. Now. Your concern in the past has been that if you say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's feeling frustrated, it will activate him again and he'll feel angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and
back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by bringing up the very emotion that upset him you will be igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it. We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling, we have the same way. You get an insight when you ah, I found the feeling in the book you go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that
comes when that happens. That's what you can give each of the kids by doing this with them, by giving them the names so that they can name their feelings and learn to do it much younger than you did, and that will be a great gift that you can give them. And you can do it after the fact, when you're calm, when they're calme. So this week would like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the first part of the advice.
Okay.
Part two is that we want to help you think a little bit differently about that story that you have about you and your husband. The story that you have is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions or responding to you in a way that will be emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble
doing the same thing with him. Now, the reasons might be different, but both of you judge the other person for the things that you're not getting from one another, and both of you think that it's the other person's fault. And so what we'd like you to do to help maybe edit that story a little bit and see if a truer story emerges. Is that we'd like to see you hold up your end of what you would like to happen in that marriage, which is do you ever
take his hand? Do you ever show affection toward him? For example, in that time when he said that he wanted to come back and he said I miss you, you made an assumption about why he wanted to come back, but you didn't actually say to him, Hey, I'm really curious to learn more about what you mean by you miss me. So you didn't give him the opportunity to tell you something that would have been important for you
to know, like what is it you mean? And I don't think that you were able to let yourself acknowledge what you missed about him, because I think there's a reason that you decided to re engage in the marriage that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure. And you're nodding,
so we can see that that's there. So what would like you to do this week with your husband is to respond to him without the judgment and the very rigid story that you have about his ability to be emotionally connected and to really consider your own challenges with emotional connection and to give in the marriage what you would like. You know, when we asked about you know the social cues that he misreads, you said, you know
globally he misreads every single social cue. Does he you know, if he took his hand, what would he do with that? Are you aware of his sensitivities and the way that you're asking him to be aware of yours? And we want to see if you notice a difference in your own level of satisfaction this week? Do you feel a
little bit better? Do you feel a tiny bit more connected if you do something that addresses your part in what's not working in terms of the connection in the marriage, and will that somehow influence him to feel more free to engage with you.
It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of saying he loves me, like I have a hard time saying I love you back.
Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?
I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere or not.
How do you respond when he says it?
I usually shrug it off.
What if the next time he said I love you, you said it means a lot to me when you say it, I could try that. What will happen if you do is it will connect to you a little bit, to your feelings, so you might freeze or disassociate. But if you have trouble saying it with words, you can just walk up to him and rub his shoulder or his back to let him know in a gesture that you heard and you appreciate it. If you find it, you're freezing.
Okay, So that's like a plan.
Can you tell us any other examples of how he comes to you besides saying I love you.
Sometimes he'll buy flowers, he will leave it in a bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it. I don't usually receive it well because I feel like I need words to go with it and not just left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because I didn't realize they were for me.
Well, the flowers, you can't mistake the flowers can so, and when you get the flowers, what we're suggesting is that you go up to and say, I found the flowers. That is so sweet, Thank you so much.
I do. I tell them again, I say, you know, it's so thoughtful what you did, but I don't feel it. I'm saying it for him.
But he doesn't have the words like you do. He doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures, the actual action, And so it's important to remember that the actions really convey true emotion.
They do I translate them that when he does things, he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words what I think of you and how amazing you are, But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am. Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.
You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is that even if he were able to express it in words like he does when he says I love you, that you would freeze up at that.
An ouch.
Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you. And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally says to you, I love you, you don't trust it. If he gets flowers but words don't come with it, you don't trust it. And so there will always be a way to defend against those feelings of this makes
me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love, so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're giving it much more weight than it is actually contributing to what's going on between the two of you.
You're right.
The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people, don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look at what they do that will tell you their true feelings. It's advice we give a lot of the time, but it's valid here because look at what he does. He gets, the flowers, he gets, the chocolates. He even says I love you and I miss you, So he's communicating quite a bit about his feelings. It's so much to take
in for you, you're so not used to it. But if you can remember that in part, what you're complaining about is that he doesn't make you feel enough that he loves you when he's actually making you feel it as much as you can tolerate, you're the one that's not able to tolerate much more right now. So if you can work on responding more to him so he feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are better than not shrug, he'll be able to do more, even if not say more, And you might be able
to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more, him feeling more than doing more. That would be a great cycle for you. Guys.
Wow, that.
Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes, but you're doing a great job.
We saw that it was hard, and at the same time, I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.
Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.
Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where she would be in five years or in ten years if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at the beginning of a process that I hope will be much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.
Yeah, I agree with that, and I was so glad that we were able to hear the part about her husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I was so moved by that, And you could see that she wanted to be moved by that, because we could see it in her body language and in her smile.
But you can also see how much she feels like she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion, whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I love you, leaving flowers, leaving chocolates, and exactly the way she wants it. But I also feel like that's a defense against her being able to really take in love.
And so I'm excited to hear whether going back to her kids and validating their emotions will feel somewhat healing for her as well as for the kids, and also whether noticing her own resistance to expressing emotion in her marriage will bring out something different in her husband. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
We heard from Melissa and we had asked it to do a few tasks, all of which are going to be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.
Hey, Lari and Guy, I just wanted to update you and like you know how my week was going. This week, I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed a few things. One is it's much easier to do it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed is originally I believed that it would like reignite them if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true. I think the truth is I'm really really scared. I find it very hard to actually get the words of
validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times I ended up crying. I felt my stomach clench. It was hard for me. But I did notice my children did calm down quicker, and I did notice also that it created a closeness. I was able to do a lot more eye contact that felt really good, you know, much as I want that closeness like more than anything in the world. I'm also petrified of it. But the second thing I noticed was with my husband. I tried to be way more aware of the ways that he
really is acting loving towards me. And you know, the stories that I really told myself regarding his ability or inability and my parts on not picking up on his social cues of his messages of love. And I actually share this with him. I shared with him how hard it is for me to you know, pick up on the love. And I told him to please cue me if he's doing something loving. And I'm you know, just
dismissing it. But I did notice he said a few things and I just told him, you know, that means a lot to me, and I smiled and I accepted it. It really felt awesome, and I noticed, as there's a result, I'm feeling a little closer to him. One night this week, I was just lying on his arm, just feeling close to him, and you know, and I said to him something I've never said to him before. I said, you know, honey, I feel like I'm home and I don't think I've
ever felt that before. And if that's not closeness. I'm not sure what it is, so again, I want you to thank you so much for all you've done to help guide me along this journey.
I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her kids and her husband. And what I love so much was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say, I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they
don't realize their own role in it. So once she was able with her kids to calm down and come back to them in a moment when she could gather herself, her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they calmed down, and then again with that feedback loop, she was calmer with them, and I think with the husband there was that feedback loop too, where she did thing beautiful.
She said, I want you to cue me when you're doing something loving in case I miss it, and then she was able to move closer to him, and that moment at the end where she said, you know, I feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful way of expressing it where she said, I was lying down with my husband and I told him that I feel like I'm home.
I loved it too, I really did and what I really liked about it is that there were two leaps of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion validation is scary. You're going to someone and saying you understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels like you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it does the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic a bit when we said it. She tried it, she saw it, and the same thing with her husband. You know, the
paradox is he's closed off. If I open up, I'll only feel more distant when he's closed off. But if you open yourself up to him, then you'll end up feeding closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these things will actually have the emotional impact for her that they did, But she took that leap of faith. She did it spectacularly, and I'm so glad that she got the results that she got because of it.
I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away, and also what our listeners take away, is that when other people feel understood and we let them know that we understand them, we start to feel more understood too. Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to find out how our advice worked out a year later.
The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship. That helped me feel less confused about what it was that Blake was looking towards me for and what it is that he's looking for me.
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