Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. And this is Deo Therapists.
Each week we invite you into a session so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help other people come to understand themselves better and make changes in their lives.
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
This week, a single woman deals with shame about getting a late start in dating and sex.
I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in a sense because then people ask you about your history, and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single. You know, when you mentioned that to people, that are always like shocked, And I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?
First. A quick note therapist is going national purposes only, does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician mental health professional or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Hey guy, Hi Laurie. So I think we have a really interesting letter today. It goes like this, Dear therapists. I'm fifty three years old and I have never been married and have no children. I didn't have a boyfriend until I was thirty two and lost my virginity with him when I was thirty two. We dated for four years. It was not a good relationship. Since then, I've had a few relationships, but nothing lasting. I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment over this, so much so that
I think I avoid dating. I don't have to share this with anyone. I even feel embarrassed putting it and writing to you. It actually makes me WinCE and I feel like such a loser. Admitting that I didn't have a boyfriend until I was thirty two and was a virgin until then too. It just makes me want to run and hide. I feel like it's a dirty secret I carry around with me. I'm very lonely and feel this shame or secret is holding me back from entering
into the loving adult intimate relationship. I crave Can you help me get over or work through this shame? I feel thank you, Lauren.
Well, I feel really bad for Lauren, just because shame is such a toxic feeling. Shame means that we feel really bad about who we are as a person. You know, guilt is about an action, Shame is about who you are. And so to feel so bad fundamentally about who she is for decades, I'm glad, she wrote, And I really hope you can help them.
I'm so glad, she wrote too, because shame prevents people from getting the things that they want in life. What it does is it makes them hide. They feel like they can't show the truth of who they are to anybody,
that they are fundamentally unlovable. And so I think what she's got here is not just an issue around she didn't have sex until she was thirty two, and that's her big secret, But it's also this question of she didn't have love and what the shame does is it prevents her from finding the love that she wants, and.
It's prevented her from doing that. Interestingly, even after she had sex and had a relationship, it didn't free her up enough. That shame was so deep that it continued even after. So I would really be interested in finding out why what happened that the shame is so deep.
Yeah, let's go talk to her.
Yeah, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio.
We'll be back after a quick break. Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
So Hi Lauren, Hi Laurie.
Great to have you on the show.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
So we would like to hear a little bit more of these feelings that you've had about not dating until a later age, or about being a virgin until a later age. Can you tell us a little bit of the dating history.
I dated a little in my twenties, not very much. I think I dated more, but just very casual.
Never a boyfriend.
When I was in Spain, I studied abroad, maybe I think I started dating more. I probably felt more free there and I dated, but I never got involved with anyone seriously, just kissed and made out really nothing more than that. Then I dated like a few people, and then when I was thirty two, I met this guy and we started dating.
And he was the first one that I had sex with, and.
My first like real boyfriend, maybe second real boyfriend.
Okay, who's the maybe first real boyfriend?
A guy that I met through work.
I think he was probably a little bit more into me than I wasn't to him, but because of his religious differences, he didn't want to continue dating me because it was a matter of a matter of like my converting to his way of thinking to religions.
I'm wondering about this person that you met when you were thirty two. So you said you dated a little bit in Spain, and then you dated some other people, nothing really much went anywhere. What was it about this person that made you think I want to be in a relationship with him and I want to have sex with him.
Well, I guess what or not I wanted to be in a relationship with him. I think maybe in part I was kind of desperate at that point, and he seemed like a decent guy, and we to do a lot of the same things. And as far as the sex, I made him wait for a while.
Why I don't know.
I guess some a friend of.
Mine said, you can't quite trust him, and I don't know. I guess I just put it off. I don't really know that I was scared. I don't think I was scared. Yeah, I'm not really sure. I guess that's I think.
I just maybe it was a matter of trust with him that I made him wait.
You said you were desperate. You used that word. Do you mean desperate to be in a relationship or desperate to lose your virginity? What do you mean by that?
Probably both. I really wanted a boyfriend.
And obviously I really wanted to have sex too, And I think, you know, he came at a time and I was like, wow, you know, I maybe I felt it's been a while now, but maybe I felt like it was now or never, and that he seemed like an okay guy. And also, in thinking back, I wonder if, like I felt that he wasn't going.
To demand a lot of me emotionally.
So maybe I kind of felt safe with him in a sense.
Although I did tell.
Him that he was my first boyfriend and that I was a virgin until that point.
How did he react to that information he shared with him.
I think he was a little surprised, but he didn't really say, oh my god, why nothing. I don't really think he had much of a reaction other than that you said.
That you thought he wouldn't demand too much of you emotionally. What do you mean when.
Laurie asked what was his reaction? I really didn't think.
He would say, really, Lauren, why, Like why haven't you been involved in relationships until now?
Like what's going on? So I think that he's not going.
To dig any deeper into reasons why where I think somebody else might have, you know, maybe questioned me on it.
So he was safe because you knew that he would collude with you in not having to talk about something that felt very shameful to you.
I think.
So I'm glave to hear a little bit about how you were raised, Like what were the values around sex and dating in your household when you were growing up or a teenager? What was the messaging around sex and especially you know, women and sex.
So well, I'll start off by saying, my dad died when I was nine, and my mom never dated anyone after that.
I think one of the reasons.
My mom never dated anybody after that is because she was overweight and I think she was really ashamed of.
That and just felt overwhelmed by it.
And she had five kids that she was left to raise on her own, and you know, I just think she looked at that is that this is what I'm going to do, and never bothered to date.
And my mom as far as dating and sex, I think was almost like my mom did not want me to date. I will say that I think because I'm the baby. I was the baby of the family.
And my other two sisters they dated, they had boyfriends young.
My one sister got married when she was eighteen. But with me, it was kind of.
Like a different story that she did not want me to have boyfriends. She really didn't want me to have a lot of friends either, but she definitely did not want me to date.
And as far as sex, she really never said anything about sex.
She was kind of embarrassed of in talking about it with me when I would ask her stuff. But I never got the idea of like, oh, sex was dirty, nothing like that.
She just didn't talk about it. She didn't think it was appropriate What was.
Your understanding of the different standards she had for you, like you shouldn't date or even have that many friends, versus your sisters were clearly dating if they were getting married so young.
I didn't understand it, especially when I was going through it was really young.
It just seemed very unfair to me. She did not want me to go out and socialize. There was a dance in junior high that I really worked hard on, and I it was expected to be there by my teacher, and my mother would not let me go.
Did your mom tell you when you said, you know, I worked on this and I'm expected to be there. What was your mom's explanation for why she didn't want you to go?
I cannot remember. I just know she said no, I just wasn't going to go. I don't really think she gave much of an explanation, because I know I pestered her heir as to why. You know, she used to say because I said so a lot. So I'm guessing she probably said something like that.
You're saying she didn't want me to have that many friends either. What was the reason for that?
I think, you know, as an adult now and looking back, I think that took away.
My time from her. I think she kind of like used me as like almost like a companion in a sense.
When one of my uncles actually commented that, like when I moved out.
Finally, finally in being what age.
Thirty, Yeah, she didn't have anybody and I wanted to help take care of her, but I decided to move out.
So how much do you think it might be related the fact that she was giving you these messages from a very young age. Look, your dad's not around, it's just me. I'm sacrificing everything for you five kids because I'm not dating anymore. I'm just raising you and you, Lauren the youngest, you should at least stay around and keep me company as a thank you or take care
of me a little bit. How much do you think that played in to your feelings in your teens and twenties about the fact that if you date and have sex, it will take you away and you'll be betraying your mom's wishes.
Really, I'm not sure.
I mean, my mom never came out and said, you know you owe me this, or you know you.
Need to stay at home.
No, have you felt it that?
Yeah? I did feel it?
Yeah, I mean I'm sure it played a role. Another thing that came into play was my sister, who's two years older than me. She's very pretty, and cousins and aunts and people at school and people that knew us would always say, my gosh, your sister is so much prettier than you. It must be really hard to have for you to have a sister that's so much prettier than you.
So I heard that a.
Lot, and people wanting to fix her up with people and not me. So I just kind of got this message that, geez, I just there's something wrong with me.
Yeah, we can hear that in your letter, that there's a sense of feeling like you're unlovable. And what you're describing are two things. One is you're describing what we call a parentified child. So often this happens when a parent dies and one of the children is expected to sort of fulfill that role somehow for the remaining parent. Your mom didn't date, so she didn't have companionship, but she had you. She didn't want you to socialize, she
didn't want you to have friends. She didn't want you to leave her in whatever way that might have been, and in fact, you stayed there until you were thirty. Even if she didn't say I need you to do this, you felt her need. You worried about her loneliness, You worried about the fact that she didn't have anybody, but you weren't focused on the fact that you were lonely
and you didn't have anybody. And then you got this other message, Well, your sister's so pretty, and so it's sort of like a perfect storm where it makes sense that you would have all kinds of confusion around your desires, your need, and your love ability all at the same time. And that's where shame comes in. It sounds like you have so much shame around who you are, what your
past is. And what struck me so much was when I asked you, why did you pick that person at thirty two, and you describe yourself as well, I was desperate, I wasn't really sure I trusted him, I wasn't really sure I liked him that much. That you were sort of just going for whoever would take you, as opposed to going for who you truly wanted to be with.
Yeah, I think you're right, and I think I've done that with almost everybody else that I've dated since then.
What made you move out at thirty? What happened at that point?
There wasn't like some kind of defining event or anything.
It was just this is it. I have to move out on my own.
If I ever want to have any kind of adult life or adult relationship, I have to separate myself from my mom because she's not doing me any favors.
How did your mom react when you told her that you made the decision to move out.
She was really pissed off for a few days, and I think the day that I moved on the next station, she was fine fine. I think maybe my uncle talked to her and said, you know, look, she deserves to be on her own. And he's the one who had commented before that you know she sees you as a companion because she doesn't have anybody.
Lauren, when you say that you stayed with her till you were thirty, and that doing that really cost you in terms of your own independence, your ability to pursue in your own life and certainly your own relationships, and that at thirty you finally say to Hi, I need to move on with my own life and her response
is to get pissed off. What that tells me is that, even if she didn't verbilize this to you directly, the edict of your role, Lauren is to be here with me and keep me company and be my companion and to prioritize my needs over yours. And I think that that edict is something that you took in so strongly that it really delayed your ability to start life until you were thirty years old instead of starting into taiteen or before or twenty or something like that. So there
was a huge delay there. And what's interesting or unfortunate rather is that to me and I think to Laurie, that's so clear that you were staying out of loyalty, out of love for your mum. But what registered for you at the time was that you were staying because you're unlovable and because you know, you're not as pretty as your sister, and so you're going to have a hard time finding someone to love you and to want
to have sex with you. That's what really got engraved almost into your own head, and not I'm staying out of loyalty. I'm staying for all these noble reasons in your head got interpreted into him staying because of shameful ones.
If you're asking if that's correct.
I think it probably probably is, although I didn't realize it at the time, And yeah, I must have been scared or like you said, probably ashamed.
But also I was afraid of her reaction. It's like, oh my gosh, she's going to flip out.
Why were you so afraid of her reaction? You were afraid that what would happen if she got upset with you.
I guess that she wouldn't talk to me for maybe a week or so, not that she had ever done that before. My mom wasn't want to give the silent treatment or anything. I was afraid that she would get mad at me. And also my mom was like bad off, like physically, she had a lot of trouble getting around, so she depended on me to help her.
So even after I moved out, like I would go over and fix.
Dinner all the time for and she never once after that said anything about me moving out.
How did she feel about you having the boyfriend?
She liked him?
Okay, when we first started dating, she get mad. She made comments to my sister that I might will just go ahead and marry this guy because I'm just spending all my time with him, and I assume she thought I was having sex, or assumed I was.
She didn't like it.
She didn't like that you were having sex in your thirties.
Yeah, yeah, she didn't think it was appropriate because I wasn't married. And this came up with another guy after that, to which I responded, well, do you want me to be a virgin until I die?
You know, like what if I never get married?
And her response to that was.
Yes, please, Okay, you know, it's just something like you know.
The first thing that you said, though, was she commented, well, you're just spending all your time with him. She is very upset when you don't spend time with her, and you're kind of saying, well, no, she wouldn't do that. No, She's not a person who gets upset about these things. She is incredibly upset about any bid for independence that you make. And I'm wondering when you went to Spain, and I think it was in your twenties and that's when you started dating. What was her reaction to that.
Well, she did not want me to go and to study abroad. As you can probably guess, we're shocked, shocked, but I was set on it. I'm like, I'm going, you know, too bad. So my aunt was like, oh, this is a great thing. You know, I'm really happy. You should be happy. Once it was determined that I was going, but she was very upset. She was crying.
When you described that time in Spain earlier, you said, you know, you were in Spain, you started dating, you kiss some guys, and then you said, but it never went anywhere. I wonder if part of the reason it didn't go anywhere is because there you are in Spain and there's a part of you that says, I really want this, I need this. I am an adult and I am in my twenties and this is something I really enjoy. And there's another part of you that said,
but you're betraying your mother. And I have a feeling that that's why nothing ever went anywhere. That the minute you started to experience joy, you also experienced guilt, and that the guilt won every single time, so you never got to see would this go anywhere? Do I want
to be with this person? There was this voice of your mother and this thought about her being so upset with you and somehow betraying her, leaving her, abandoning her, and it wasn't until you actually moved out that you were able to say, I want to have a boyfriend. I'm going to go forward with this.
I'm sure that you're right. I think it probably did have something to do with it.
And also one of the things.
I will say is I just felt very ashamed of like my body, like I have a complex with my legs being big. So maybe that and then the guilt too. I never thought or the fear of the reaction of my mom, of my mom's reaction.
You know what, Lauren, It's so much easier to acknowledge the feelings of I'm not good enough, my legs are too big, than to go to the other place, which is I'm really hurting my mother.
Oh, I never thought about that, Laurie.
To Laurie and I, this seems very very clear how powerful the messaging of your mom was. Oh but really, from the age of ten on to you, your role is to be her companion, is to be there. That messaging was so clear to.
You, and I knew it had something to do with my mom making me feel guilty, whether intentionally or not, but never so deeply that I, you know, I thought it was a lot of just self shame.
So this is giving me a lot to think about.
I'm curious about the relationship that lasted four years. Four years is a good chunk of time. What happened there that the relationship didn't work out?
We argued a lot.
He lied just about little stupid things, and that would just it would make me insane, you know, like silly stuff like oh I didn't put the tomato and the refrigerator, like, well, there was no one else here, of course you did, you like things like that would just drive me up a wall. So and then he lied about bigger things too, and he wasn't that smart.
So at what point did you realize you actually did not want to be with him? It sounds like pretty early on.
Pretty early on.
Yeah, I remember, like you like, when I was alone, we'd be like God, you like, give me a sign, you like, should I be with him?
Or shouldn't?
And now I look back and say, well, if you're asking God all the time, then there's your.
Sign, you know.
You know, if there's that much doubt, then it's not the right relationship for you.
And you stayed because you felt like this is the best I can get.
Yeah, Yeah, when you.
Had sex with him. That was your first time. What was that experience like for you?
It was good.
I really enjoyed it, like I always enjoyed having sex with him. After the next guy that I had sex with, I realized that I was really just having sex with the first boyfriend and the next one it was you know, it was really good. It was making love then having sex at the same time. It was more emotional with the second person.
Did some of the shame go away? Meaning you stopped worrying about how somebody was going to see your body?
I mean I still felt a little embarrassed, but not to the point where I wasn't not going to not have sex.
What happened to the guy that you felt emotionally connected to.
I think I did something really stupid.
We'd been dating a few weeks, and before I met him, a girl that I worked with wanted to set me up with a friend of hers.
So it took a few weeks to get that rolling.
So I had been dating this guy who I really liked, I would say, blake fell in love with him.
I think he had something to do that weekend or something.
I went out with the guy who the girl that I worked with set me up on and I told him about it, and I probably shouldn't have and I think it probably hurt him. And we hung out once or twice after that, but it was very clear that you was not going to date me after that.
These days, are you on any dating apps? Are you open to dating? Where are you at these days in terms of that?
Well, I'm open dating.
I am on Tender right now, but I don't think it's the best website. It's a lot of people just looking for sex. And I've talked to a few people, but with these dating websites, you'll talk a few times and then the conversation ends, so I haven't been too serious about it.
Do you feel you holding back from really giving this a go?
Maybe maybe I could be. I guess I'm afraid to.
Get into a relationship in a sense because then people ask you, like about your history, and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single. I know children, and you know when you mentioned that to people, male or female, they're always like shocked. And I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you? This man said this to me this one day and I started to tear up and I walked away, and he came back a few weeks later and you know apologized, you know, said he was sorry.
And then another man just said, well, you must be a real pain in the ass if you're still single.
That's a little bit like the people who said to you, Oh, your sister's so pretty, how do you feel in her shadow? It's really unfortunate that those things were said to you. And when I think about when you say, well, I'm just on Tinder, which is sort of a more of
a hookup site. Sure people find relationships on it, but as guys, that it doesn't sound like you're trying that hard, and that when you did find that guy that you say you were falling in love with, you went on that other date anyway and then told him about it, knowing that it probably wouldn't go over well. So there's this element of even though you want this very badly, you find ways to sabotage it. And I think that if you and your mom are both lonely, you have
that in common, that there's a connection between you. Even if you're living separately, you're both these women who are lonely and unpartnered. But if you become less lonely, then she really is alone in her loneliness.
So, Laurie, Actually, my mom passed away like ten years.
Ago, okay, but I think that there might have been a time and maybe even you're still carrying this around that there's still some sort of betrayal of her. If you become less lonely, you lose that connection with her. But that was something the two of you both had together, was that loneliness. Nobody talked about it, but it was there. You didn't have a parent who said, I really want you to find connection. I really want you to have
a full life. I want you to have friends and family and relationships and all of those things that you desire. Sounded like your mother was really not supportive of you branching out and having a social life. Who are your friends now, in terms of do you have close friends? Do you have friends who know your quote unquote secret? Do you have friends who you talk to about wanting to find a partner? Do your friends who really know you?
I have two good friends.
I have more friends than that, but two, I guess pretty close friends as far as I'm knowing my secret, not completely.
No, they don't know.
Like I didn't date until I was very old, and that I didn't lose my virginity until I was old. I've just kind of like, oh, yeah, I was older when I lost it, and no one's pressed me.
I do want to point out, Lauren, that this very strong link in your head between if I only lost my virginity at thirty two, it's a shameful thing. Period. They're no extenuating circumstances is in your head, but you have. I grew up in a household in which the messaging I got was that sex was not something you did before you got married, and I really internalized that strongly.
And my mom had some health issues and she needed a lot of assistance and companionship, and so I stayed with her until I was thirty out of loyalty and the really desired to care for her because she was really in need. Both of those stories are a true and be paint you in a very positive light relationship wise. Right, This is somebody who's loyal, This is somebody who's kind, this is somebody who's compassionate. And those stories are truer than the one you've had in your head all these
years of there was something wrong with me. I wasn't lovable, enough, or I wasn't as pretty as my sister, and therefore that's why I wasn't dating, because that wasn't the issue. And I think that you really need to think strongly about changing the story in your head to one that's more accurate and that's much less self damaging and self flagellating and self demeaning, and there is no shame in the real story.
Yeah, I think you're right. I think if I keep telling myself I'm not good enough or pretty or pretty enough, that I'm just going to keep living my life based on those thoughts. Some things that you guys were saying today, I really never really really considered.
Them very much.
I didn't really relate it so much to my mom as strongly as you guys think that it is related to her.
In our relationship, we've.
Talked a lot about your mom. I'm curious to know what you remember about your dad. You said you were nine when he died. What was your relationship like with your dad, and what do you remember about him?
It wasn't like a real close relationship.
One thing I remember is my dad was angry a lot, and my mom and dad argued a lot. Then when I was when I was seven, they went to see a marriage counselor.
And how do you know that?
I think maybe my grandmom told me.
I'm not really sure because my mom really my mom did not talk about this kind of stuff, but I know that's what they did because I remember one time.
I think as kids, we waited in the car for them.
So I guess maybe one of my brothers or sisters said it was like some kind of counseling or something. So after they went to counseling, their relationship was so much better, Like they held hands, they told each other they loved the other in front of us, and they went out on dates and we started doing more things as a family. So then I didn't think of my dad as being so angry. But that didn't last very long because then he got sick.
So your mom must have been especially devastated that they had just gotten their marriage on track. They were much closer, and then your dad got sick.
I'm sure she was devastated, But my mom just really didn't talk about her feelings, you know, never talked about missing him. My mom was really closed emotionally.
How did your family handle it when he died?
We were all really devastated.
We were all very upset, and I was very scared for years, Like as a teenager, I was just so scared that my mom or grandmam was going to die because my grandmother lived with us.
Did she live with you when your dad was alive or did she move in afterward?
She lived with us ever since I could remember.
I think she probably moved in maybe when maybe before I was born. She lived with us. I mean my grandmother. She was a deer. She was the sweetest thing. They broke them a little on her.
How old were you when your grandmother died?
I was thirty, so it was so right around the time that I moved out.
But Lauren, do you live with your mom? Because you didn't want it to be alone and she needed the companionship. She had the companionship she had her mom. Why did she need you to be another third companion.
She might not have, I guess.
And I wanted to be there, to just be there for my grandmom. And she, by the way, wanted me to date and have friends. And my grandmother would say, oh, Lauren, I hope you find someone.
You know, I want you to be happy. You know, get out, you need to get out and date.
If you go out with friends, you know you'll end up meeting someone. So after my grandmother was in a nursing home, then it was just me and my mom, and I.
Guess I felt guilty and leaving her alone, Yeah, because now she didn't have the companionship of her mom, and then she'd be losing you too.
Yeah.
One of the things that happened sometimes in families is that we look at our parents and we say, well, I want something different from myself, and yet there are so many reasons that we're not aware of that we end up creating exactly the same thing. And I think what you've done out of some kind of connection loyalty is created something very similar, which is you are alone and you are lonely.
Yeah. Yeah, I am alone. I've lived alone for twenty three years. Now, I am lonely.
Lourene, we have some advice for you.
What we were thinking about was this very famous quote by Carl Jung, and it goes like this, nothing has a stronger influenced psychologically on their environment and especially on their children than the unlived life of the parent. And we were thinking about that in terms of your relationship with your mother, and what a profound effect that has had on you and your life, whether you were aware
of it or not. That again, the narrative that you had for yourself was I'm not attractive enough, I'm unlovable, something's wrong with me. But there was a whole other narrative which had to do with your mother's concern about not having you as your companion. And we want to free you from those shackles because your mother's not here anymore.
You're fifty three years old, you're lonely, and you know what you want and really nothing is holding you back at this point but you and the faulty narrative that you're caring around.
So with that in mind, we have two tasks for you. We would like you to write a letter that you think your grandmother would write to you, because she is the one that saw what was going on. She's the one that said, no, I want you to get out there, I want you to date, I want you to have a life. We would like you to write a letter from her to you in which she acknowledges the deep sacrifice you made by being loyal to your mom, by
being her companion. And we would like that letter to be one in which she described to you how amazing she thought that was that you were taking such great care of her daughter that she could die knowing that her daughter was well taken care of. But what she wants for you now, most of all, is for you to start taking care of you.
Now.
I don't want you to spare how amazing your grand mother thinks and thought what you did was, how amazing the sacrifice was, how loyal, how wonderful, how caring, how kind, and how noble. All right, So that's the first task, okay.
And then we have sort of a two part second task. And the first part of it is that you have this narrative that something is damaged about you, something is wrong with you, because you started dating and having sex later in life. I mean want you to just entertain the idea that you started your adulthood at thirty one.
That was when you left the house. You left the house at thirty one with unprocessed grief about your father's death, with feelings of devotion towards your mom that took precedence over fidelity to your own needs, and also a very clear sense of knowing inside of yourself that you wanted an adult life and indeed, within a year of leaving the house, you got a boyfriend, you started having sex, you were in a relationship, it wasn't the right relationship.
Some of these myths that you were carrying around, like you're not attractive enough, or you're not good enough, or you're damaged goods because you were starting so late, were really shown not to be true. But every time you would confront that, you would sabotage something like there was that guy that you really liked and you went on that other date and then you told him about it. It seems like there was still that story that was holding you back, and we don't want that to happen anymore.
So we want you to manage your dating life in a way that is not self sabotaging. Right now, you're on a dating app called Tinder, which tends to be more hookup oriented and maybe excuse a little bit younger, but it's not enough, and you don't seem to be getting very farther. So what we want you to do is we want you to get on many dating apps knowing what you know now, which is, oh, actually I
had a pretty typical course of things. If you think about my beginning being at thirty one when I moved up, things were pretty typical. I had some low self esteem issues, I had some unprocessed grief, I had some blurred boundaries with my mother, so to a lot of people, and so instead of thinking of yourself as like this odd person, we want you to really embrace how typical you are if you look at it from a more accurate place. And then we want you to go on these dating apps.
We want you to talk to your friends about how you really want to be set up and how you really want to meet someone, and we want you to not have these long back and forth with people, because we want you to get on a zoom date. And you're going to do that by asking someone out. And you're not going to ask out someone that you well, yeah, maybe that's the best I can get. You're going to ask out the person that you are most excited about, and we want you not to ask yourself the question
will he like me? But the question is I want to see whether I'm going to like him. He's the one who's auditioning, because you forget that there's another side to this equation, which is anybody who goes on a date with you is going to really wonder is she going to like me? How do I look? Am I going to be interesting enough? Just like that guy who really liked you, he was so hurt that you went out with someone else, and it didn't occur to you that someone could feel that way about you.
We want you to be the one that texts the initiative.
Right, because really this is about you embracing your freedom. You have absolutely nothing to lose here and you have so much to gain, and so we want you to commit to going on a zoom date with someone that is interesting to you every two weeks, giving you two weeks between dates, because we don't just want you to pick someone because you have this deadline.
So we want to hear your assessment of him, like here's what I liked about him, Here's what I didn't. Here's where I think you know we're a good fit. Is where I think we're not. That's your focus. He's applying for the job. You're the one doing the hiring.
So show up with the attitude that basically I'm looking to see if I like.
You yes, And if the end of that one the answers are yes, then you say, hey, let's do this again, okay, And.
To get in touch with the fact that you're showing up to that date, not as somebody who doesn't have kids, as somebody who's child free, not as somebody who was never married, as somebody who never had to go through a bit of divorce that made her resentful to it or man. In other words, you really need to understand that you are an amazing catch.
Okay, sounds good.
Lauren unleashed.
Great, all right, So we look forward to hearing how it goes.
Thank you both so much.
I appreciate your time and your advice and your insight.
You're very welcome.
Lauric well off she goes.
Into the wild, I think she's going to do it. I think she's going to write the letter. I think she's going to sign up for some websites. But the thing I'm most interested in is that if she does go on a date, can she go with that attitude of I'm interviewing you, of I'm checking out to see if you're for me, not vice versa. That to me, if she can do that, that would be the most promising thing.
I just keep thinking about the unlived life of the parent and how much that has affected her life, and I think it's going to take her some time to unshackle herself. One thing I noticed when we were talking to her was that she's very much in her head.
There wasn't a lot of emotion there. And also these were things that she was considering for the very first time that nobody had ever talked to her about the connection between what went on with her relationship with her mother and what goes on in her relationships with men, and so hearing it for the first time, I think she could hear it on an intellectual level, but I don't know that it was really sinking in on an
emotional level. And so I think that writing the letter from her grandmother maybe will help her to integrate some of that on a deeper level and hopefully prepare her a bit better for the dates that she goes on so that she stops sabotaging herself. One thing we see so often is people, no matter what age they are, if they haven't worked through something, they end up sabotaging themselves so that they create a situation where it makes it impossible to get the very thing that they want
the most. You're listening to dear therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.
So we heard back from Lauren. We gave her a lot of dating related assignments. Let's see how she did. This is Lauren.
So I did the I guess the homework. We can say.
I wrote the letter to myself from my grandmother's point of view, and I guess I was kind of expecting to have I don't know, I had some kind of reaction, and I really didn't have much of a reaction, but I think it kind of prompted me to start thinking about my uncle, who was at my mom's house a lot and I'm close to and I remember he commented a lot on you know, saying that it was kind of unfair that my mom used me as a like her companion is the term that he used, and that
you know, he understood why I wanted to move out, and he was happy that I did it and comforted me when I did, and my mom got mad at me. And then I remembered something that after my mom had passed away, he actually he did thank me, and I guy, it's funny that you said to write a letter from my grandmother thanking me. I do remember him thanking me for taking care of his sister. He said, even though it's your mom, you know, I really you know, it
was nice that that she had you. She was lucky to have you to to take care of her, and that he appreciated it. Then, as far as the dating, so I did sign up for two other dating websites.
I've been talking to a number of guys. So right now I'm talking to someone and he seems like a really nice guy. We have similar interest in music. We get excited about the same music.
But that's about as far as we've gone. I think we've had maybe three or four email exchanges, so I haven't spoken with him yet over the phone or video, but I imagine that's going to come very soon. I think it was a good idea that you told me to get on more serious websites so that I can kind of push myself and start dating. So anyway, I wanted to thank you guys for talking to me. It gave me a lot to think about the first week after I spoke with you, it was pretty emotional for me.
I was just thinking about a lot of things, and I've decided to go into therapy.
I start this week. I think Tuesday is my first appointment.
Hopefully it will help me with a number of the issues that I have, so again, thank you.
I think when people first hear Lauren's response, they might think that grandmother thing didn't really work. But as therapists, we see so often that what people do with a conversation often leads them to some kind of growth or change, even if it's not exactly as we anticipate, and I
think that's exactly what happened here. So she wrote the letter to her grandmother, and she didn't have what felt to her like an emotional experience, but I think she did have an emotional experience because it brought to mind an emotional connection with her uncle and how her uncle was so supportive of her having a life and so appreciative of what she had done for his sister, her mother. And I think that's exactly what her grandmother did and said when she was alive too.
It's funny because we chose the grandmother because we wanted her to see something through the eyes of a benevolent figure in her childhood. And she was like, oh, you know what, maybe that's not the right benevolent figure. I'm just gonna think of my uncle who was another benevolent figure. So she did actually the assignment, she just did it through the different eyes than we suggested. But I think she was actually really on point with the assignment.
Yeah, absolutely, And I like that she did what we asked about, finding dating sites or apps that were more oriented toward what she's looking for, which is a serious relationship. And she did start conversing with people, and I hope that she will move it more quickly to let's have
a video chat. But I think that she sounded really excited about the fact that there was this one guy with whom she had this potential connection with and no matter what happens with him, I think it will give her more confidence moving forward to really embrace herself as this independent adult who is entitled to have a loving,
reciprocal relationship. And I think that even though her letter was about shame, ultimately, when you really examine the old story and you help to revise it with a more accurate current story, you free yourself from the shame and you can see yourself more clearly, and you can see your situation more clearly, and that liberates you so that you can move forward.
And therapy should really help her with that, and so it's a really good move that she not only decided to go into therapy within a week, but actually scheduled depployment and is beginning the process. Very glad to hear that.
Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to find out how our advice worked out a year.
Later, and Guy had said that he didn't think I understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie actually later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to confront those painful experiences because of what it might say about them, and I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
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