What lies beneath | 8

I think, mister Carrell, is your name, Kevin Stephen Carrell. Yes, it is, and you have been giving evidence in the inquest. Yes, did you meet with Rochelle Childs on seven June two thousand and one at Bargo? Absolutely not know?

Just days before Christmas in two thousand and six, Kevin Corell is giving evidence of the inquest into the death of Rochelle Child's. It's five years since Rochelle's murder. Unbeknownst to Kevin, while he's on the stand at Glebe Coroner's Court, Rochelle's body is beneath him in the same building, being re examined by a forensic anthropologist.

Sitting in the start, Kevin Correll was told Rochelle's body has recently been expered.

I didn't know that, replied mister Correll.

He hasn't been charged or other persons of interest have now been cleared.

Counsel assisting the coroner, Peter Singleton, told him further post Morgan examination has found at least one digit is not present, its information police never made public.

Kevin Corell, a grandfather of three, strenuously denies any involvement, and in court today tried to avoid taking the stand his lawyer, claiming mister Correll might be tricked into giving answers that suggest he's guilty.

I'm Ashley Hanson and you're listening to episode eight of Dear Rochelle, a podcast by True Crime Australia. This is the untold story of Rochelle Charles. In this episode, excerpts from the coronial transcripts have all been voiced by actors, including those of Kevin Correll. It's important to mention non publication orders prevent us from revealing some witnesses and their evidence, and even evidence from certain has been suppressed. Those court

My name is Peter Singleton. I'm a barrister and I was the counsel assisting the coroner in the inquest into the death of Rochelle Chiles.

Here's Peter Singleton reading his own opening address.

This matter has involved many victims. Rochelle Childs, of course, is the primary victim. She has tragically lost her life, her family have suffered greatly, and her friends have also suffered. So too of other persons and their families when those persons have come under police scrutiny for crime they did not commit. And indeed, in this inquest, there will be further pain as painful issues are necessarily canvassed. Even the family of the killer is likely to suffer discomfort in

The inquest ran over two years, with multiple adjournments. Almost one hundred witnesses were called to give evidence. A Gleeb coroners called in Sydney's in a West. The building was on one of Sydney's busiest roads, Paramatta Road.

I would recall it as a as a brutalist type of building seemed to be basically made of concrete with a perhaps some pebble crete or some other weak attempt at beauty, but essentially it was relatively dark inside, unattractive, unadorned, unappealing, and unsympathetic to the people who had to be in it.

It had been five years without answers for Chelle's loved ones, her sister Christie and her mum Anne can remember sitting in the courtroom.

We were there every day, all day and it was it was hard. It was hard listening to people talk about it. It was hard listening to people refuse to answer questions too. That was infuriating. If you've got nothing to hide, why you're not answering questions. That was Kevin who eventually refused to answer any more questions, which was his right. But why wouldn't you just answer the questions? Don't be an asshole? Alrighty O.

Little notes and listening and feeling sorry for those who had to go through it. Listen, just look the same way going through a sort of you know, because I all cared about her, all the people and on the stand.

Can you give us some context around what led to Rochelle's inquest being held In two thousand and six.

The police had conducted an investigation. They had a brief of evidence, but it wasn't sufficient to lay any charges. In this case, the state current had decided there should be a hearing.

Or an inquest.

There were nine persons of interest. Is that unusual to have so many persons of interest for homicide?

I think it probably is unusual. My experience may differ from others, but it seems to me more than average. Bear in mind that these investigations and in quests offer need to be thorough and need to canvass all the possibilities. We don't go into them with a closed mind. In this case, there were nine people who had had some connection to Rochelle in the periods leading up to her death. All of that needed to be explored. Mister Carrell was one of the nine people who were in proximity to

Let's return to some of Kevin's testimony. Kevin Carrell was legally represented by Matthew Johnston, a criminal lawyer. You're about to hear in exchange between Peter Singleton and Kevin car Real voiced by actors.

The proposition is that, in the course of this inquiry, by order of the coroner, Rochelle Child's body was exhumed for a further post mortem examination. Do you understand that I didn't know that, But I understand what you're saying when you say you didn't know it. Today's the first

Do you understand that? Do you understand what that means?

Yes.

During the course of the inquest, we received information that one of the people of interest had brin spreading the story that Rochelle had been killed by by Kisho would cut off her fingers. The initial autopsy had not looked at that or at least resolved that possibility. To the coroner ordered that the body be exsumed and the second autopsy be performed to see whether or not that could

How extraordinary is that for a coroner to order the exhumation of a body.

In my experience, it's very rare. I don't think that's an uncommon experience. I think it is very rare, and it is only done pursuant to a legal order.

And when they went back to the autops it wasn't conclusive what had actually happened to her fingers, so they thought, oh gosh, is their merit in this.

It's believed the initial autopsy conducted on Rochelle's badly burned body acknowledged at least one finger was detached, but what cause that detachment wasn't clear. Was it from the fire or was it cut off by her killer. This was a pivotal moment in the inquest. Could this be the breakthrough police were waiting for? Rochelle's family was consulted in a secret meeting about the prospect of exhuming her body.

When we went to Leppington to exume her. I wasn't allowed to tell anyone. So the only people that knew aside from New South I was police in the coroner, was Mum and Dad. And I can't cope with their emotions and they can't cope with mine. Like when we go to break down, we go away from the others because we're so close. We know what it does to each other. So I couldn't sit with them.

It was just such an evasion, but they needed to look for something.

Yeah, I remember sitting in the car with Detective Haywood, who was like a my adopted big sister at the time. Mum and Dad were in a different car because I just again couldn't be with them when it happened out at the cemetery, which you know, I go out there a lot it's terrific, And we've followed the van into Glebe.

I just got goose bombs.

But no, that was like a a knife in your back.

I did tell the person who had been spreading the story that the body had now been exhumed and was now being autopsyed or was about to be. I asked him to give evidence knowing that fact.

Did you try and use that situation to your advantage, not to my advantage.

But what one is trying to do is get truthful evidence, and there's a balance to be struck between pursuing that and always ensuring that it's a fair procedure. So in this case, mister Krell was the witness. Our purpose is not to trap him unfairly, but to persuade him to

I also want you to understand that some of her digits from her hand were apparently not connected to the rest of her body at the time, or as sorry, are not connected seem not to have been connected to the rest of her body.

Do you did you just understand that proposition? Yes?

And I want you to understand this important point. The examination has not finished and we are yet to be told the result the final result of all of the investigations as to whether or not her hand or fingers have in fact been cut off. That's a matter for further forensic examination. It may be that they were not cut off. We don't know the result. Do you understand

Been some severance of those parts of her body.

Nai Peter Singleton was pressing Kevin on information about Rochelle's body that he allegedly circulated to other people, including his former partners Alice and Evelyn. Last episode, Evelyn told it she held some information back on the stand for fear of hurting Rochelle's family, but she did call police the following morning with crucial information.

Kevin, on a few different occasions too that I can recall, said to me that Rachelle's fingers were severed by bikeys. That's what you do when you steal from bikeys. Now, I said, I'm sorry, but I just didn't want to say that in front of her parents. I just didn't want to. So with that, she said, okay, I don't want you to talk about this to anybody, and I will contact you tomorrow morning.

So twenty four hours had passed and she contacted.

Me and said that there's been a decision to exhume Shell's body.

Like the rest of Rochelle's loved ones, the exhumation hit her best friend Lisa heart.

The imagery that comes up, you know, when they tell you that's what they're doing, You just you think of her and you see her, but you see what she probably could look like now, and a cold table in a room and no one's hugging her and.

It was that was tough, just kind of brought her back in many ways. Ah, and then you have hope again this is going to lead to something. You know that, Yes, this is a horror, but it's going to lead to something. You couldn't think it up.

It's just yeah, the.

Blow after blow after blow, you just can't. Yeah, breaks you down.

Let's see some more of Kevin's evidence.

Do you agree that in the days after Rochelle Childs had been killed you undertook the task of cleaning out her office, cleaning out her desk On the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me. In your view? Was Rochelle Child's a fairly easy going, happy, go lucky type of person? On the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may

Didn't you.

On the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me. You also told police that you had overheard a conversation about miss child going to a rebels party. Didn't you, on the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me. You also told police about a married man called Bruce that lived nearby her at Bargo, from whom Miss Childs

But you did not raise with the police.

That Rochelle had met someone over the internet and gone to see that person, did you, On the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me. Mister Carrell, did you hear various rumors and other bits of informal information about what had happened to Rochelle Child's On the advice of mister Johnston, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

Kevin was legally entitled to exercise his right to silence. The objections he took to answering questions are not to be taken as any admission as to his guilt or innocence. This case was dogged by red herrings. Remember in the beginning, there was a vicious rumor that Rochelle had been killed by barkies over a drug debt. It's now becoming clearer who was involved in peddling that rumor.

He said that her fingers had been cut off because she'd ripped off the rebels or something like that.

But because she was set a light that could have just burnt and they need to look at that to see if Singers was severed.

And it wasn't. Did the rebels do that? It was it was definitely looking at Kevin, you know, did he have information about what happened to her fingers? And if he did, how did he know?

That?

It's horrible?

And then we buried her again.

MSS Childs had been led by someone to believe that a Walk and Shaw commodore would be acquired by her dealership at Camden Holden and would arrive on the eighth of June two thousand and one. MS Childs generally made

We'd organized for these drinks on the Thursday to go and have a drink, and I said, I'm not going to go. I've been on the phone all night. I'm just going to go home. And we had that conversation down in the train carriage where anybody could have heard that conversation, that the plans had changed, that she was just going straight home.

As of the morning of seven June two thousand and one, and indeed probably as of lunchtime on that day, MSS Childs had no special plans for Thursday evening. Yet by that afternoon she had made a plan to meet someone that evening. That plan was not communicated to any of the friends and family members to whom Miss Childs usually communicated her plans, probably simply because of the lateness of

Peter Singleton wasn't the only one determined to get to the bottom of this flashy ice blue car.

Heavin, her boss told her that a walking Shaw was coming into the car yard and that she could have it for the long weekend. So that was really exciting, but we had to keep it quiet.

Yeah, I couldn't believe it.

I was like, oh my god, that's so exciting. I was just like, that's so awesome because I knew how much she loved Commodore's and at the time, I'm no car person, but I know a Walking Shaw is like one of the big cars, you know, like that adds a special car, So I was excited for her.

Why the secrecy behind the Walking Shaw, I don't know for sure, but I think because it was such a classic and worth so much money, and back then it was something that someone would want to steal. So it's not something that you would publicize that you had one of these and that you were going to be driving it around because you didn't want it flogged.

Basically, let's go back to Jim Morrison. He was the manager of Camden Holden where Rochelle and Kevin worked there.

I had no knowledge of one being negotiated on, traded or anything. Never been discussed with me, and I'm pretty sure through the business owner he checked that with the other brands, just to see if any of the value or managed so they're had any knowledge of it, and by memory no, they didn't. So where this walking Shaws suddenly materialized from and I never did materialize, there is a bit of a mystery. It wouldn't be done secretly.

A bit of don't let you know. I don't think that would.

Be necessarily a conversation. I'm more inclined to think it might have been just some sort of furfey. There's never a walk in Shaw, but it was put up for whatever reason, and I don't just yeh can't understand why.

With hindsight looking back and the secrecy that was around it. Do you think there was another motivation behind keeping it hush hush?

Looking back on it, I think that the walking share is the key to this. I don't know whether it existed or not, but the fact that she was so excited about it and she had to keep it so quiet and then no one ever spoke about it again. To me, that's suspicious, and I think it needs to be investigated. I think it's the key to this. I just keep circling back to that. That's what she was excited about. That's what she was focused on. That's all

On the last episode, we revealed explosive new evidence from Kevin's ex partner, who you know is Evlent. She told us Kevin showed off a walking Shaw in his carport just a year after her murder at his unit on the South Coast at Marilla, which is just thirty meters north of where Rochelle's body was found.

Evelyn approached me on Facebook because my friend Mindy and I have built a Facebook page, and she approached me and I called her and I spoke to her for probably about an hour and a half on the phone, asking lots of questions.

Around eight o'clock in the evening, I had had a few phone calls with Christy and.

We sorry, sorry, sweetie.

Talking to her, I realized that you know, it's it's not just a story in a paper.

It is somebody's child, and it's and sister and whatnot.

And she was obviously very careful with what she said.

To me, but the information that I obviously knew, nobody knew and I didn't know that when we were talking at the time. She did say to me, had you ever gone to his home? And I said yes, I had.

So I asked her just to think about when she was at Kevin's unit at Waulah, and I just asked her what did she notice? What could she see?

And I told her the story about me being unwell and what the house looked like, and.

We're on the walls, what was on the floor, what was she stepping on? What did she said that?

He had a big knife that was on his bed head hanging.

Was there anything unusual?

So where did you go?

And I said, well, we walked out the front door to go across to the beach.

And he said, oh, come and have a look at my car.

And it's incredible that that's when this piece of information came out, because I just said, what do you know?

I want to show you my pride and joy and we were just talking about that.

She went, oh, okay, so nothing else. I said, yeah, he had.

Like a like a silvery blue colored car. I said it was a walking Shaw. I said, I remember the name because I always thought it was a pretty ass.

She said, oh yeah, he had one of those walking Shaw cars in his car port. And I nearly fainted.

She said to me, it was what And she stopped for a moment, and I thought, oh, my god, if I said something I shouldn't say.

And then I asked her, are you sure, and she.

Said, please tell me what you said again.

So I did.

Described to me what a walking Shaw looks like, and she described it, and she remembered having a conversation with her son at the time, who was a car fan, and he said to her, oh, yeah, no, that's a really that's a classic. That's a very expensive car. She was only ever asked by the police what he drove, so she didn't think it was important.

She said, Evelyn, you didn't say that in your police statement, the name of the car, And I said no, I told them that he had a really fancy, expensive looking silverish car.

She was only ever asked by the police what he drove, so she didn't think it was important.

I said, you never said the name of it, and I said, well, I didn't really think that was important what kind of brand it was. They just asked me what kind of car he had.

So the fact that she saw a walking short in the caryard at his unit block he's significant.

Was this an oversight by police? Here's Evelyn reading from a subsequent statement to police in two thousand and seven.

I then thought of my relationship with Kevin Carrell between November two thousand and two until February two thousand and three.

I recalled that whilst I was with.

Kevin, he had four different new cars during that time. They'd be secondhand, but quite new and expensive cars. I recall the very first time that I met Kep and he had a black Sleka sports car. The car looked to be brand new. It was very impressive. He had this car for a couple of weeks and I never saw this car again. The next car I saw Kevin with was a silver Fancy Commodore. He only had this car for about four weeks.

I said that and she went, oh my god. And that's how she told me the story.

And that's a piece of information that wasn't gathered by police because their line of questioning wasn't open enough. In my opinion, that's very important.

Do you think that needs to be investigated now by police?

Definitely, and they know because everyone has communicated that to police.

While the inquest was still under weigh In April two thousand and seven, police assigned detect is to track down every single hold and walk and Shaw ever manufactured, all seven hundred and fifty of the limited models. Detective Seney Constable Eric and Nuttle, assisted by Detective Sendy Constable Sally Clark, would tasked with interviewing every owner and asking them the same eight questions.

One were you.

The registered owner of a Holden Commodore Group a Walkinshaw motor vehicle on the seventh of June two thousand and one.

Two Do you know Kevin Correll? Three?

Have you ever been approached by Kevin Correll to borrow your Walkinshaw motor vehicle on or around June two thousand and one. Four Do you know Rochelle Charles?

Five?

Have you ever been approached by Rochelle Child to borrow your Walkinshaw on or around June two thousand and one. Six Have you ever had any dealings with Camden Holden on or around June to thousand and one seven. Has any employee from Camden Holden ever approached you to borrow your walking Shaw on or around June two thousand and one eight? Is there any further information you have that

To look like genuine Walkinshaw vehicles.

Basically, there are fakes out there, other commodols kitted out to look like walking shorts, and because they're not registered as walking shaws, it's impossible to account for them all. Let's hear from Ben Hill, a family friend of the child's and a car mechanic who specializes in high performance vehicles. You'll remember his voice from earlier episodes when he assessed Rochelle's beloved Holden. How difficult is it to distinguish between an authentic walking share and a fake.

It's very difficult unless you're a trained expert or an obsessive collector. If if one drove past or were pulled up in a car park, you wouldn't be able to spot the difference with the amount of reproduction stuff that you can buy and could even buy then to make a mock up.

So how to talk me through that?

How does that process play out if someone's trying to fake a walkie?

Basically, if somebody knew somebody and they could buy something in the black market, then they were buying body kits and they were buying twin throts and rebirthing a six cylinder vel commodol and it was actually re using all the original components off a walking shore.

Knowing Rochelle, if she was promised a walking shaw for that June Long weekend, she would have jumped off.

The Harbor bridge for that. Yeah, if there's an opportunity to drive a b in it, she would have. Yeah, would have given up a left leg to to have that opportunity to drive that car.

I believe.

And would she have known if it was a fake?

Oh?

I don't believe.

So Again, if it was parked there with a bonnet shut and it had replica everything on it, it would look like a walkie if it was in the garage, said, unless you're a train collector and you know what to look for. If you just opened the rollers and the light was turned on and it looked like a walkie, you'd think it was a walkie. If it had the right interior, the right paint, the right wheels, the right stickers, you'd definitely believe it.

So it's possible Rochelle's boss, Kevin Carrell, had access to or rowned a fake walking shaw at the time of Rochelle's murder and police would have been none the wiser. Let's break this down with Damien.

The walking shaw comes into it the fact that she just promised to have one for the weekend that weekend and to find that Kevin Carrell's got one in and seen the year later in a garage of the premises on not far from Girauah on the in the Ilawarra. Was that ever discovered at the time, because it sort of concerns me.

Would police at the time had known if he had a walking Shaw they would have.

But as long as the vehicle was registered in his name. If it wasn't in his name, then no, they wouldn't have known.

What about if it was a fake walking show.

No, because the model doesn't come up on the RTA records as being a particular. It only comes up the standard model of the vehicle. So it say it was a v VB model made to look like a walking show. It only say it's a VB. It wouldn't say it's a walking shore. It's only a kit goes on it makes you look like a carb.

I'm keen to tell Peter Singleton about this possible breakthrough. Someone has come forward saying that they saw Kevin in possession of an alleged walking shaw a year after Rochelle's murder. Do you think that's of interest and should that be something that police should be looking at today?

Yes, I would say it would be of interest. I can't comment on police resorts and they've got a lot of other work to do, but it would strike me that the information should be followed up. Most likely explanation would be that he's acquired an interesting walking shaws himself, but of course the police will want to know when he got it and did he have it back in two thousand and one?

Did it have to be his could it had just been a walking shaw that he had access to.

Potentially potentially, I mean a possibility is that he or whoever it was, borrowed a Walkinshaw and took her for a drive. And maybe it was just to impress Rachelle in the hope of a return favor that was never forthcoming, leading to violence. So there are possibilities. Undoubtedly, the Walkenshaw featured heavily in this inquest for various reasons, and it is a matter that should be followed up. Someone's got this information, they should be interviewed.

Given the war sure was a major focus in the inquest, it is possible people's memories could be contaminated unintentionally. Here's Damien Well.

You really have to be careful in relation to the witness's contamination, in particular when the evidence is laid bare at any inquest or perhaps trial, you really have to be careful of.

How they are.

Forming their thoughts and their what they think they saw or heard. And they weren't compromised by any other witnesses who may have said something else and they're just following the line that they saw or heard.

It was clear the inquest was very interested in Kevin Corell's behavior before and after Rachelle's murder. Several witnesses were called to give evidence about their interactions with Kevin. Here's Peter Singleton recapping a witness who testified that Kevin had made a trouble and comment. Just three days before Rochelle was murdered and her body set on fire.

A friend of Rochelle, who was a firefighter or a volunteer firefighter, happened to be visiting Rochelle at work and was talking to Rochelle outside sales the used car sales manager's office, which is actually an old train carriage. From memory, Rochelle asked the friend whether she had ever seen a dead body or something to that effect. The answer was no, and somehow that the conversation got into this murky territory.

I asked Peter Singleton to explain how much weight he placed on that particular comment.

Well, of course, it's interesting because Rochelle's body was burned by whoever did it. By itself, that means nothing. Anybody could have said that. Many people have said such things that they haven't committed murders. But it's an example of a tiny circumstance that can be added with a lot

The topic of fire was a common line of questioning by Peter Singleton. Now for the first time you're going to hear about evidence from a key witness, Kevin's ex partner, who you know as Alice. She lived with Kevin for almost a year before she told him to move out. It was subsequently discovered he'd moved out in the months prior to Rochelle's death. This is not her voice, but here is part of her evidence at the inquest.

Did Kevin have a preferred method of getting rid of rubbish?

Yes?

Was it to go to the tech with it?

No?

No, What did he like to do?

Kevin liked to burn rubbish? And yes, he liked to burn rubbish. Burn things. I'd cleaned out a whole lot of paperwork and you know things that I put I've got a little shit up the very back of my property and I put a whole lot of stuff there to be taken to the tip or disposed of in some way.

And he said he'd get rid of that for me.

And on one particular day, I think I was having my car washed, so I had some items in my car that I took out of my car and put there, thinking they'd be safe. They were in bags, white garbage bags. They didn't look like rubbish to me.

But anyway, even though they were in garbage bags.

Well, but they were in white garbage bags. The rest of the rubbish was rubbish like, it was all like strewn there to be disposed of. But these bags, and I don't even think they were all white garbage bags, but I'd put things in. There was a beach bag which had my swimming stuff in it. There's a swimming costume in there that he didn't like me wearing. That was in that bag. There was my I had a diploma, an original one, one of those beautiful diplomas that I

After she broke up with Kevin, Alice began a relationship with Colin. You've heard him on Deer Rochelle before because Alice told him quite a lot about Kevin. Did Kevin ever use this fire pit, because Alice has given evidence that he used to have fires in the backyard.

The shed that was up the back was more like a bit of an open sort of shed that was very old. There had been a fire had been built in the middle of it in the floor in there. At the time when he said that he had got something out of there, I had noticed that the wheelbarrow had been moved, because I had a the lawn and lee recently, I knew where I put the wheelbarrow, and

Okay, as you've just heard. Rochelle's inquest was explosive. Her body exhumed, nine persons of interest scrutinized. So many questions needed to be answered. Who started the rumor about bikes cutting Rochelle's fingers off, Was there ever a walk in shore? What happened to her in those missing nine hours after she left work. The inquest ran for two years but concluded with an open finding. As Peter Singleton said in his opening address, what began as a blue had become much clearer.

Mister Carrell, what happened to Rochelle Child's that brought about the end of her life? On the advice of mister Johnston. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me. You killed Rochelle Childs, didn't you? On the advice of mister Johnston, on the advice of mister Johnston. On the advice of mister Johnston. On the advice of mister Johnston. I refuse to answer that question. Refuse to answer that question. I refuse to answer that question.

On the next episode of Dear Rochelle, what was it like being married to Kevin?

Carrell just like to.

Talk about There was many sides to Kevin. You know, I spent thirteen years with him. He threatened to if I ever left him, he.

Would help me down and find me.

He would cut me up in little pieces.

What makes him so dangerous? The fact that he can just snap is not to be trusted.

You do want to do this, I do.

It's just really hard that it happened to someone I loved, I would want someone like me to come forward, keep a stake.

Let's have a break yet, just I'll just move that microphone away.

I feel.

I feel sometimes like it's my fault.

Dear Rochelle is a multi media production from True Crime Australia.

If you want to be one of the first to find out what happens next, go Dear Roshelle dot com dot a you. That's where eligible Digital News Corp Austrelia subscribers get early access to podcast episodes and breaking news in our live investigation and you will also find exclusive videos, interactive evidence, feature articles and more. That's De Rochelle dot

Sydney.

Camera operators are Daniel Andrews and Oscar Viera. We sound designed by Martin Perolta. Thanks also to Greg Thompson and Lenny Panerz. Show Bareo fageld Sa Grabe, Hailey Goddard, Stephen Grice, Charlotte carp, Tina Coggins and Harry Hughes. Special thanks to the Daily Telegraph editor Ben English and dear Rochelle would not be possible without the help and I'm wavering support of Christy and Anne Childs, Mindy Wicks, Damien Loon.

And Rochelle's friends.

This podcast series is hosted and investigated by me Ashley Hanson