The Death Penalty, an Insider’s POV

You will probably see that change. The death pilling is because they found too many innocent people on death row. The money didn't do it. The moral consciousness of the communities in the state didn't do it. They did not want their tax dollars to kill an innocent man period. Jarvis masters on what he believes it will to put an end to capital punishment. I can imagine seven people in an auditorium and they all talk about their experiences

of being seconds away from being executed. That would turn people against the death pilly, in my opinion, very fast, very fast, because we're looking at seven human beings that we paid to be executed. That really gets to the consciousness of people and see what happens. I think most people in America would say Wow, this is not for me. No, no, no, no, no,

you guys got this all wrong. My name is Daniel Vasquez and I worked with the California Department of Corrections for thirty years, starting as a correctional officer and bootstrapped my way up through parole agent assistant, borol agent, investigator and then warden at Saint Quentin for ten years. But when were you at Saint Quentin. You were there from when to win from three through nineteen nine. The warden, you're the chief operating office, responsible for the daily operation

by subordinate staff of the institution. But you're responsible for the budget and for you know, just everything that has to do with the run in a Saint Quentin also carry out executions, you know, when they've been confirmed for executions and the death warrant has been received. According to Witness to Innocence, since the death penalty was reinstated in nineteen seventy three, one hundred and sixty seven men and women from twenty eight states have been exonerated and freed

from death row. Let that sink in one hundred and sixty seven American citizens, the vast majority of whom we're discovered to be innocent. We're scheduled to be executed by our government, but they were spared, be it for the grace of God or the fate of luck. And the vast majority of those spared were found innocent based on dubious DNA evidence. What does that mean for the many condemned inmates who claim innocence, including Jarvis, for whom DNA

evidence is non existent. Imagine the international outrage of China was to knowingly execute over a hundred of its innocent citizens. Many of us still rage at the fact that the Saudi Arabian government executed just one of their citizens, Jamal Kashoji. In our first episode, Jarvis asked how many guilty people need to be put to death to justify the execution of one innocent We all need to answer that question

for ourselves. But as painful as it might be to look, Jarvis and his community urge you to not turn a blind eye to the devastating reality that more than four percent of defendants sentenced to death in the US are innocent. According to National Academy of Sciences. The National Coalition to Aboli the Death Penalty puts the number even higher at

one intent. You are a believer still in capital punishment. Yes, Sam, you know, as the Bible says Uhffer, and I do you think it is a deterrent for other potential criminals to prevent them from committing capital crimes? No, No, it's a it's a determ for the individual that's executed. But if that was the case, then you should have only taken one execution to stop others from committing a capital crimes. And as you well know and I know, it doesn't

work that way. It never stopped anybody else from killing another human being. Can I cannot say one thing? Because you know my stale death roll. People have read the papers and watched television. They see people who come on death row that have some of the most despicable crimes you can imagine. I'm talking about serious ugly stuff, baby killing, killing women who are pregnant. I mean real, serious ugly stuff.

And for a while there was one guy. I never met him, you know, but I've seen him, and he was people on death row for killing the baby. And for years I watched people watched this guy walk by, and they were so enraged by him. They hated him, and I didn't like him. I didn't hate him, but I didn't like him, you know, and I used him as a sort of Okay, here's the perfect example of someone you need to work because you it helps you

work for yourself, you know. And he was in protective because I think for about sixteen years ago, very few people spoke to a you know. It was just terrible. And behold, he was found to be innocent and walked out of this prison and left his property right at the door, because I've seen it, because I was going

to visit to go home. So you spent all this finger, all this energy, and yet the very person that you despised that you probably want to kill because of what he did, it's found to be honest, what does that say about Hugh Army? Sixteen years you've been hating this dude, wanting to kill somebody. How do you how do you reckon with that you wanted to kill this man because you've the baby killer, and yet he just walked right by yourself and left all his belongings right at the

foot of your door. So I just wanted to add that because it's so important to to what the questions I have about the definitely, you know, and it goes back to what I was saying. If you find an innocent person, it changes people's mind. Is there any circumstance in which the death penalty is justified. No, I don't believe it's justified because I think it's morally wrong. It's arbitrary. I mean, I honestly think a lot of people in America,

I think it is morelly wrong. But I would challenge those people who believe in it to put it on the evening knows the actual execution. Don't do it in the middle of the night. Do it in the middle of the day. But they don't want their kids to see it. They don't want to see it because deep down this side, you cannot kill a human being. People, people who recognize, who see other people ask him be can't do it. You need a monster, You need someone

who's sick. That's what you need. Has your opinion of the death penalty changed over the years since it's become so personal for you? No? No, you know, before I got a death for what I was gonna saying, Quentin and I lived on a tier with people on death row, and I want my watch and walked by myself and I said, well, you know what, what in the row is he's sleeping on, you know, And it was really really personal that I saw people that I I got

to know who are on death row. When we come back, Jarvis will tell the story of one person in particular he got to know on death row and what it was like in the days leading up to December two five when that close personal friend was executed. So you said you've known people who have been executed. Did you see him walk down to the chamber? How did that unfold?

So if you though I know that people, but I don't know, I don't know anybody, because it did Stanley Chucky Williams that I knew personally, and then I thought get executed. One of the last men to be executed in California was the notorious leader of the Cripts gang. Stanley TOOKI Williams. In two thousand five. I asked former Warden Vasquez if he had been familiar with Tookie Williams

during his time at San Quentin. Yes. I was become somewhat of a rallying cry for people who believe in rehabilitation because he wrote children's books and he apparently turned his life around in prison. Did you see any of that? Did you witness his rehabilitation. No, not really. I mean, I you know, he was just one of of When I left the institution, I think there was about six hundred thirty four inmates on death row, so he was just one of six four in To me, he wasn't anything,

uh special or you know. I saw him days before, you know, his execution. But we're in a visiting room and he was having his last visits, you know, with his family and friends and his his girlfriend, she may have been his wife. He he was so strong and I don't mean, you know, you can barely know he was on death row. You can barely tell that he was going to be executed. I didn't see it, and I looked for it that he didn't have it. He

didn't have it. I thought maybe he believed that he was going to win his appeal in the last minute. I didn't know what was going on, but I was looking for something and I didn't see it. He kept his family laughing, He kept his people laughing. It was like the last supper, and I kind of felt with that was about, you know, I felt that he was just holding them. Let's call Andrew a California number will be monitored and recorded. You go out there and you see a lot of people who want to client, and

you you hold him up. You know, you say, no, this is not gonna happen, or you know, I'm gonna love you guys no matter where I am. Um, so I got I got that sense. But him being executed two days later was it was I just believe that he knew something I couldn't know and it may not happen, or that there was some resolve that it was going to happen. Uh, but I couldn't read what he thought. You know, let's her friends. Oh yeah, he was a

good friend of mine. Yes. Uh. In fact, his first book, in my first book, we were writing it together and the Adjustment Center on the first tier. He had an idea of write a book about kids, and I had this idea of writing stories, you know, um, short stories. So we were writing at the same time. You know, I couldn't spell a lick, so he always I used to always call him over and asking how to spell

certain words. And over the years, you know, he went one way on death row and I stayed in Adjustment Center. He came back once or twice, but you know, for twenty seven years. I was an adjustment center, and UM only saw him when he came, you know, came and left, you know, but I knew him personally. But I couldn't I couldn't get a sense of where where he was. You know, what was the day? It was? It was, I don't know. It was a very cool day. We were not on lockdown. Uh. He walked with the same

two guards he always They escorted him. He didn't have no It was the same restraints that he would normally have that they normally put on you, rather you're a death row or not. It was those same restraints. He wasn't in bald chain and the leg irons on anything. So I didn't see a dying man, you know, I didn't see a man who's going to be executed. When he was walking towards the chamber. Do the the other prisoners show respect. I don't know how that works. I

really don't know how that works. You know, they keep that stuff top secret. You know, I really don't know how that works. I really don't. I know that they in the last twenty four hours of seventy two hours, they put you on death watch. They put you in the isolating zell and they watch everything you do, you know, and they log everything thing you do and they write with you what you did need you know. But I mean that's what I just don't know from you know,

from word of mouth. I have no idea, you know, I know, I don't even know where where it's actually done. You know, Um, I have no idea where that's at. Not too many people do. Really, it's that's amazing. So you don't even know where the chamber is. Well, I mean we knew where the gas chamber is, you know, because the gas chambers there a hundred years ago, you know, and then they removed. But this table, this execution table, you know, no, I know, I didn't know where it was.

Did you hear that it was dismantled? Yeah, Anti lot saw it on television, and we are as I speak, as I speak, shutting out removing the equipment in the death chamber. At Sam Clinton, the governor made a very serious point when you know, when when there's that visual you know, and we were watching, you know, parts of it come out on the door. You know. Um, that

was a very powerful statement. But they also got a lot of people mad too, and I think, uh, those numbers of people who believe that the death penalty are increasing. Because of that, I think there's uh underneath our feet. There's a lot of people who are getting ready to spent a lot of money to put the death penalty back in action if the governor wins the next election.

Why do you think they're motivated to do that? In my heart of hearts, I think people believe that if you stand in line, you vote on the death penalty, in that vote is discredit didn't taken away from you. People are upset, you know, and they voted for the death killery. And people believe that their vote will stolen and the victims had no right to have that spelled taken someone like that, you know, and that is a response to the governor. Uh, juries are are voting to

give people the death killing. Now those Jewels who believe that they vote were stolen, they're they're they're taking it out. You know, I'm in the Bay Area. You find very few people who believe in the death killing. You know, I know people who ain't never met anyone who believe in the death telling. But if you go to Orange County, if you go to San Berndino County, if you go

to the whole half part of Riverside County. And then if you specially go up here, up north and all these other counties, they're totally want the death pillty, you know, and they're and and they're doing something about it. According to Gallup, opposition to the death penalty is actually at its highest point in almost half a century, though a majority of Americans continue to support capital punishment for individuals convicted of murder. Wait what you yeah, Okay, okay, we'll talk.

We'll talk, all right, he will, he will. In landmark case back in nineteen seventy two Ferman v. Georgia, the Supreme Court had actually abolished capital punishment, though it was eventually reinstated only four years later. Justice Potter Stewart stated at the time that the death penalty was quote so wantonly and freakishly imposed. It was cruel and unusual, in the same way that being struck by lightning is cruel

and unusual. The only justice on the Supreme Court to ever litigate a death penalty case, Justice third Good Marshal, also can heard with the firm in Georgia case. An adamant abolitionist, he believed that the more informed voters were about the arbitrary nature of the death penalty, the less likely they would be to supported a theory referred to

today as the martial hypothesis. Up next, Stanford law professor Larry Marshall, no relation to third Good breaks down the veracity of the martial hypothesis and the fascinating way in which Larry was first introduced to Jarvis's plate. I'm Larry Marshall, and I am a professor of law at Stanford University and UH and the lawyer as well. So I got a call from someone asking if I was available the next day to speak with Oprah Winfrey about a case UH.

And I said yes, And I got on the phone and she wash, you know, very passionate about Jarvis's case and about trying to make sure that he got, you know, world class representation. And I told her that I would do my best to help find lawyers who would be

able to take the case to the next level. In the course of my work for coast to thirty years, I have met thousands, thousands of people who have said I used to support the death penalty, but the more I've learned about its vices and flaws and risks, and so on I've now come to oppose it. I've not met a single person who says I used to oppose the death penalty, But the more I learned about its accuracy and its fairness, and its cost effectiveness and it's justice,

I've now come to support it. And I submit to you the measure of any public policy is what impact does information have on public opinion? And here, if people can be educated, and this is the martial hypothesis, if people can be educated about the death penalty, they will in huge numbers come to oppose the death penalty. Perhaps hearing Jervis's story will compel some to test the accuracy

of the martial hypothesis on themselves. Jarvis has maintained his innocence in the crime that put him on death row. Reputable legal scholars who have researched his case have declared him factually innocent. None of us can know for absolute certainty that he's telling the truth, but similarly, none of us can know for absolute certainty that he's not telling the truth. A man's life hangs in the precarious balance

of this ambiguity. We are as judge and jury. What we know for absolute certain is that one Jarvis never murdered anyone. Two Jarvis may be guilty of forming the SHIV that killed Sergeant birch Field, and equally, three Jarvis may not be guilty of forming the SHIV that killed Sergeant birch Field. With this level of uncertainty, can there

be a conscionable justification to execute an American citizen death penalty? Focus, the nonprofit devoted to ending the death penalty, dubbed last Year the Year of Executing Innocence, and Alabama Death Row inmate has been executed. Dominique Ray was executed on February seven, nineteen. Dominique Ray died tonight at home in correctional facility and a more Mr. Ray was convicted based solely on the testimony of a witness with schizophrenia who was delusional and

actively hallucinating. The witness's mental state was known to the prosecutors but never disclosed. His attorneys were inexperienced, underpaid, and did very little investigation. There was substantial evidence of innocence, which the jury never heard. On August one, nineteen, Larry Swearingen was executed in Texas. He went to his death tonight, maintaining his innocence. He was executed for the murder of

a nineteen year old woman. There was no physical evidence associating him with the crime, there was no matching DNA, and the day the murder most likely took place, Mr Swearingen was locked up in the county jail for traffic violations. Tonight, Texas executed Larry swearingein at the State Penitentiary in Huntsville.

The death chamber. His lawyers claimed, quote a combination of flawed science and overblown testimony condemned an innocent man, and according to the Death Penalty Information Center, nineteen of the twenty two prisoners who were executed in twenty had quote significant evidence of mental illness, brain impairments, intellectual disability, or

chronic serious childhood trauma. Sadly, appears no less lethal for innocent people on death row despite weak evidence in subpar representation in his two thousand five trial, Forty three year old Nathaniel Woods was executed just two months ago for his connection to the murders of three Birmingham police officers. This despite the fact that he didn't shoot the gun, he didn't even hold the gun. He maintained that he dropped to his knees in an attempt to surrender to

the officers who barged into the apartment. The man who actually fired the gun. Death row inmate Carry Spencer said Nate was actually one innocent. Two of the twelve jurors voted to spare Nate's life, and a sister of one of the slain officers made a last minute call to Alabama Governor k I Vy's office to postpone the execution date to allow more time to investigate the evidence. On that call, she said, quote, he didn't kill my brother, and he didn't kill the other officers. May they rest

in peace. I'm asking for mercy, and I believe my brother would want me to take the same stance as of the man. He was. Sadly that plea fell on deaf ears because staunch pro life Governor Ivy was pro death.

That day, high profile individuals from the son of Martin Luther King Jr. To Director Ava du Verney to Kim Kardashian West all tweeted against Woods's execution, but the Governor of Alabama released a statement doubling down, saying, this is not a decision that I take lightly, but I firmly believe in the rule of law and that justice must be served. Staunch pro life, Governor Ivy has presided over

nine executions on her watch since twenty seventeen. Last year, Governor Ivey signed into law and abortion bands citing Alabamians deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God. Nate's sister Pamela believed Nate was a precious gift. Nate's father, Nate Sr. Believed Nate was a precious gift. Tens of thousands of

Nates supporters believed him to be a precious gift. Dear Governor Newsome, my name is Pema Children, and I'm a Western Buddhist nun and a teacher of students throughout the world, most of whom aren't even necessarily Buddhists. And I've written a number of books, and probably the most well known

is called When Things Fall Apart. I've known Jarvis Masters over twenty years as a friend and as his spiritual advisor, and I have no doubt at all, really no doubt at all, that Jarvis was not part of the conspiracy that resulted in the death of Sergeant Birchfield. I don't know if What I know was after Fining Freedom was published and I heard that someone who gave her my book Fining Freedom. And after that there's this point, you know, we start writing each other and everything else. It's like

a blank for me. I can't remember anything else. Did she come to visit you? Oh? Yeah, she visits me almost twice a year, once a year. You want to talk about joy? Here you are death row and locked in a in a page and you're laughing all for for for two and a half hours. You know, Uh, that's what that? You know, how you get a little of that? You know, you've got to love her. How can you not love someone who's able to do that?

You know? Jonvis isn't exceptionally compassionate man that literally spends almost all of this time helping other inmates. He has written two beautiful books about his life. But really the most important thing is that he is innocent. He's an innocent man who does not deserve to be in prison

even a day longer. Every time my songer, it was it was something special for me and being she started introducing me to other Buddhists and that she knew in a lot of our other students, and a lot of these people are still in my life, still supporters of me. She's more like a mother to me than anything else. Yeah, she's She's definitely that. You know, a lot of people want to identify our relationship as my teacher and I and I totally accept that just as fast. But my

relationship to her is my mama. That's who she is bar known, so that's just what she used to me. I love her that way. I have visited Jervis many times at San Quentin, and we are in close touch by phone when he's able to call, and he has become a dear friend and a student. Jervis has had me in tears literally both from joy and sadness about his many experiences with diffusing prison conflict among the prison population.

I'm so inspired by his stories of his experiences that I often use them as examples in my public teaching on human goodness. One story which I find so touching is one time Jarvis I was thinking they were out on the yard and uh, there was a guard that was trying to provoke Jarvis. Now, I want to say in this regard that most of the guards are wonderful and very helpful. Um, but of course there's some that aren't.

And in this case, the guard was taunting Jarvis and trying to get him to respond, but Jarvis didn't retally eight and didn't push back, and finally the guard left, and then the men on the yard they came around and uh, and they were saying to him, it, Jarvis, how did you? How can you do that? How can you just let him talk to you like that without lashing out at him? How can you do that? Is that your Buddhism that allows you to do that? And

he said, no, it's not my Buddhism. It's just that I've gotten some letters from teenagers who are the children of guards, and they say that sometimes their fathers are so frustrated and angry when they come back from work because of what they've had to put up with with with prisoners, that they lash out at the kids and beat them. So I don't retaliate when I'm taunted like that, because I don't want these guys to go home and beat their kids. So I know that you are us.

His aspiration is to continue to help others no matter where he is, and his lifelong experiences of being a prisoner on death row will be invaluable to people who

come from the same background that he did. His habitual care and love for others while in prison has become i would say, cellular for him, and his passion is to work with beings on the outside who could, with no guidance or encouragement from someone that knows firsthand, who could then find themselves in prison just as he did, or of course worse, The injustice of keeping Jarvis locked up because he has caught up in a web of an old system filled with racial bias would be such

a travesty and an unfortunate waste of his experience, wisdom, and genuine desire to make underprivileged and unguided lives better. He has courage, He really knows what these young people are up against, and he has the heartfelt longing that no one ever has to live a life behind bars, and that life is full of possibility and love, not hopelessness. Next week, we'll hear the details of the murder of

Sergeant hal Birchfield. Jarvis's side of the story. Will also hear the jaw dropping away in which Jarvis finally found out that he was implicated in the conspiracy to commit murder. Today's episode was written and produced by Donni Fazzari and myself, Corny Cole. Our theme song sentenced his compliments of the band stick Figure from their album Set in Stone. Stu Sternbach is composed the original music Nate beforet did the

sound design. Visit Free Jarvis dot org to find out more about Jarvis's case and to sign your name to our Dear Governor news and petition and if you have questions for Jarvis, please to leave a message on our hotline at two zero one nine zero three thirty five seventy five. That's to zero one nine zero three thirty five seventy five. Dear Governor Newsome is a production of

I Heart Media and three Months Media. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.