Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. How are you.
Oh?
I'm just off the road.
My life is insane, and I think I slept fourteen hours last night. Oh my gosh, fourteen hours to wake up and go get a butt exam at I guess a proctologist or a scatological expert.
I don't know what he was, but was a degrading experience.
My cousin recently went to this doctor, and he brought my cousin up right before my anal rectum exam. I already had to call anoscope this month, so I'm getting so much ass play. This is separate and he basically told me to. He was very nice, and he must he had to have been.
He's got bedside manner.
Yeah, he had a nice bedside asshole manner. And what was the most humiliating part was that he told me to bend over the table and pull my pants in underwear down, so not even off, just down like you were getting. It is worse. So it's totally worse. I was like, can I just take them off right?
And no gown?
There was just a like a shade, like a dressing, you know, something to shade me. He was in the room also when I took my pants down looking away, which is horrifying also, and the nurse was there because you know, they have to have a witness now.
And then I bent over the table with.
My pants around my ankles and my underwear around my ankles. Absolutely, and then they lifted the table up, so the part that I was leaning on, oh no, they're putting down and put it down so that my asshole was more was protruding more. I suppose it was all a blur. I mean, actually it wasn't a blur. I wish it were a blur. So that was how my morning started.
By the way, I'm coming to Charleston, South Carolina this Friday night, and I'll be in Charlotte, North Carolina on Saturday night, so I hope to see you there.
Tickets are still.
Available, and I am closing out this year with my last batch of shows for the Little Big Bitch Tour, so.
Come see me. Awesome. Actually, Chelsea, I have a really exciting update. Oh good, what is it?
This is about Lynette who we did a GoFundMe for last week?
What was that for her sister?
For her sister to get the car fixed and her GoFundMe is over five thousand dollars, So thanks to all the Dear Chelsea listeners who donated.
She knows, so fantastic she does. I would be great she didn't, she knows, she's aware.
So yeah, all that money goes to Lynette and her sister. And if you still want to donate, I will put a link in the description again this week, so check that out.
Okay.
Our guest today is an author and now I guess she's a producer. Well I don't guess she is a producer because she has her own TV show coming out based on her book called Three Women, which premieres tomorrow on Stars. Please welcome author and creator Lisa Todeo. Hi, Lisa, Welcome, Welcome to Dear Chelsea. This is my producer, Catherine.
Hi, Katherine, lovely to meet you.
Well, Lisa, this is nice because I vaguely recall no offense to you, but I vaguely recall interviewing you when the book came out, because I was a big fan of the book. When it came out, I was so delighted to find out it was going to turn into a series, and I watched the entire series in my bed on Sunday, prepping for my colonoscopy, so cheers to that. Gosh, wow, so we've been through it together so far and you didn't even know it.
No.
First of all, I want to say great casting. Everybody in this is so good. Betty Gilpin is in.
It, and Jyleen Woodley, Jaylene.
Woodley is always adorable and a great actress.
And then what's Sloane's name? What's her name?
She's a fucking Wanda Wise. She is insane. She's insanely talented and insanely stunning.
Yeah, she's very, very easy to look at, and she has a lot. First of all, there's so much sex in the show, and it's female positive sex.
So we're going to talk about all of this.
But the first thing I wanted to say to you, Lisa is it was so nice to see a book be turned into a series with all of the fingerprints of the actual author on the show rather than someone else taking it over. This is a huge female centric production, from the directors to the writing to all of this. The storytelling is for females.
You know.
Obviously men can watch it and learn a lot, but it feels very representative of the female experience. So that was very refreshing, and congrats to you on keeping your hand in the pot of all of this, because so many times we hear you know the opposite thing happening. Thank you, was that your relationship at Stars, Like, is that how you decided where to land?
Because they were going to give you the what's the word I'm thinking of?
I want to say authoritarian, like that like you to be an authoritarian?
Well, yeah, I mean I believe that the show is exactly where it should be right now. But we did start at Paramount showtime. That was the initial sort of landing zone. Now Stars has picked it up, and I'm very happy to be at Stars. I do think that it is literally the ideal place for the show.
And so so tell us, okay, don't I want you to talk about the show a little bit more than me describing it, because I feel like you might do a better job. But I want to just talk about So this is this original book. If you guys haven't read this book, I've talked about this book on the podcast before when I read it.
So this is to just lay the groundwork.
This is Lisa followed three different women throughout their kind of journeys. In this story, and kind of just tracked each woman and they each have different experiences and they all kind of tie in together. And then in the show, you're actually represented. There's a character that's you who is played by Shyleen Woodley. So how do you compare the book versus the show, Like, do you think it mirrors it? Did you think did you take some extra license?
So I think it mirrors it. I think fans of the book will feel specifically with the acting. You mentioned
all the actors that we have, they're brilliant. I think that the actors have brought Betty Gilben, bringing Lena to life, the housewife and Indiana who just wanted to be kissed is one of the most beautiful portrayals of female passion and having I think that people who loved the book and love Lilena character in specific, will just be blown away that Betty Gilpin has essentially just become her so much so that I felt like she had met her
and she obviously hadn't. But the main difference in the show is that the Shalen Shale Woodley is playing, like you said, a sort of version of me. And the reason for a version of me being in there is we were trying to satisfactorily link all of the women and not have it just be an anthology and have it be like a real, you know, a television show, and we were going through the different ways that we
could link them. There were some wildly pitched ideas, like Sloan's husband could be the lawyer in Maggie's story and stuff like that. All of it was very inorganic feeling when we were doing so much justice to honor the real three women's lives. The reason that they are all linked was me, and the reason that they all talk to me and that people talk to me in general, was that I I think, you know, I was going through a rough period of my life too, some of
them where and I was. I was It's like, you know, it's easier to confess to a priest that has been you know, kicked out than it is to one that hasn't. And that's kind of what I was. I feel I felt like I was kicked out of the world, and people sort of you know, I just it was a it was we became close, and we became friends, and I have remained close with all three of them, most especially Maggie, who I talk to almost every day.
Oh wow.
So the sort of idea of me being the linking mechanism, the truth of it felt true to the to the book, and so that is the biggest difference in the show.
Okay, let's talk about these characters.
Okay, so Lena specifically, we'll start with her because her story is probably very typical. Right, I'm sure of a woman that's married, that hasn't been touched by her husband for a really long time, that is aching for some
sexual interaction or appreciation or any vibe at all. Like her marriage is dead and the relationship is dead, and he completely takes her for granted and just thinks she's going to stick around, and he doesn't know what the problem is, which I think is illustrative of many relationships far and wide. And how do you get that spark going? And in fact, she didn't get that spark relt with him. She had to go find it elsewhere, and then that
becomes its own story. I mean, this Lena's character arc in this whole thing is just it's like a rollercoaster. So she falls kind of head over heels for her high school love interest. But he's married too, and I don't want to give away anything, but she really gets into him and then she gets the courage to make a change in her life. But it doesn't end the way you think it will end, and she's going through all of these emotions, losing herself, finding herself, losing herself
and finding herself. And I loved seeing where she began and where she ended because I remember when I thought I was going to be some sort of actress.
When you go to acting class. They talked about that, and.
I was like, God, it's so interesting because so many times you see movies and you see shows and there is no arc that's definable or that you can put your finger on. You're like, well, this person's just stayed the same throughout the whole series. But in this show, every character is different than when they from where they started. So I thought that was so beautifully done in terms of acting, direction, all of the writing for it. So which story do you feel out of the three women?
Maggie Sloane.
Sloan's story is going to be very inspiring for a lot of people who want to throttle up because threeaples are very in vogue now. Threesomes are making a comeback in a major way, probably from the seventies, and I know a lot of women want to open their marriages because I have a lot of friends that I've spoken about this, and this is this is a great depiction of the trials and tribulations of doing that. Yeah, So, which one of the stories are you closest to as a writer?
Gosh, that's a that's a hard question. As a woman, I would say that Lena's story was probably the one that I felt the most personally connected to, that roller coaster of how you feel in the sort of you know, in the gleam of the person who you love's eyes. So that felt to me like like Lena and I had grown up loving the same fairy tales, like the Princess Bride, et cetera. We got our our idea of what love came from the exact word, the same age,
so it kind of came from the same place. So me, Lena and I have a very similar DNA in that way. So I think Lena's story is probably going to be one of the most relatable, just because, as you said, it's such a widespread issue. I think almost anyone can relate to that. Maggie being a young woman in high school who has attention from an older man is I think something that many of us can relate to as well.
I certainly related that to that too. And there's something about and now as I have a daughter, I have a nine year old, and I'm seeing like you know, I'm kind of seeing men because she's smart and interesting, older men will sort of talk to her in a different I'm starting to see that and the way that she likes it because it's attention and just being able to see that what had happened to Maggie happening, you know, just seeing a version of that, the path of that
in my own home is so striking, and I think people seeing it on screen. Gabby Creepy plays Maggie. She's a phenomenal actress, and she embodies the desire. I mean, it's like imagine desiring someone because it's your teacher. It's an older men like and yet the feelings of wrongness that come with that. I think we're so in tune to that and Sloane story. As you said, thrupples are
getting big again. But what's so big to me about Sloan is that she just is unapologetically herself and certainly the Sloan in the book, and the other Sloan that I had spoken to who was an African American woman but did not want to be in the book in the end, was were the two Sloans that we kind of looked to while also retelling her story with Tory Samson and Chieza Hutchinson, who were the architects of the New Sloan. But what I think about the New Sloan
is that she wants what she wants. She wants things that might seem to some women like whoah, you have this, this and this, you don't need that too. And that's the part that I like so much. It's like, well, you don't know what she needs. She has this, this and this, you don't have that, okay, but maybe you have the thing she does want. And who are you to decide what she should have left after having, you know, after having a wealthy lifestyle, a nice home, a gorgeous husband, and Blair Underwood.
The idea that the notion that you should be satisfied with a certain number of things and not ask or exactly, yeah, have no cupidity for more like.
Oh, okay, exactly, my cup is full and that's it. It's like no, no, no, no, wait, who decides that our cup is full? We're the ones who decide.
That exactly, exactly.
And that's such a female thing to do. Like when we're talking about like these kind of gender roles that we've grown up with, the idea of this male gaze, this idea of male appreciation, the idea that you can be seduced from such a young age, starting years younger than ten, by male attention, because of power dynamics, because of men you look up to, whether it's a mentor. I mean, I was in an inappropriate relationship at a very young age also, and I thought I was completely
in control of the situation. And it's like, well, you're not taking into account all of the dynamics that exist within an age difference, like that that an older person has power over you.
And the realizations that you have when you do get a little bit older, because when you're like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen and an older guys paying attention to you, you're like, I got this.
Yeah, it's confirmation that everything is what.
Yeah, And now that we're also we're all questioning these things and understanding that that is not good and that we don't want men looking at, you know, younger girls in that way, and it's like, you can't stop that from happening. So now we have to reconstruct how we act as women and how we.
Raise our women, which is so messed up.
Yeah, we're always doing all the clean up work, always exactly.
I also like in Maggie's story, you know, she has an inappropriate relationship with her teacher, but she doesn't come to grips with the inappropriateness of it until much later, And so while it's happening, of course, she's in the throes of this, like she thinks this is a romantic love story, and she and I like how many times she says on camera I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, because she needs it to hear it back so so much.
Right, That's like another thing.
When we're missing something we want, we wanted, we say I love you so prematurely without thinking it because we love the idea of being in love. We don't think about what comes, what kind of baggage comes with saying I love you, and what kind of responsibility you're taking
on by saying I love you. So what about as a mother, how are you changing the way that you're talking to your daughter about these kinds of things even though she's nine, Like how are you preparing her knowing what you know now about women and writing these like you know, this book and this show, Like how do we change the narrative?
I've been sending her to a ninja school, like after school, you know. I mean, I don't know how we change the narrative. I think it's got to be a collective effort. Unfortunately, and I say unfortunately because I feel like there's a lot of people who are still stuck in previous ways of being and for this next generation and every forthcoming generation, I think the idea that you know, we need to evolve with this piece. We need to evolve in a lot of ways, but with this specifically, it's a very
tricky zone. And like you were saying about Maggie, like she didn't know. She didn't while she was in the throes of it, she wasn't feeling, you know, and then later she felt something. But actually there was a moment, a couple of moments when she's like, you know, doing her high school thing, and like her friends were like, Yo, are you going to this party this weekend? Et cetera.
And she's like, wait, I don't know if I'm going to be allowed to do that because I'm kind of dating this guy, you know, Like those kinds of things started seeping in. But she was like, well, but he's married and he's my teacher, so he shouldn't have a problem with me going to the prompt. And she was already kind of feeling yucked out and then he did
something to pull her back in. So it's not even The part that is frightening to me is that, like, there is an inner mechanism I think at some point where someone's like, wait, you know what, I don't want to do this. But people who do have that knowledge of how how to groom victims essentially understand exactly when to get in there and flip the switch again. And that's absolutely terrifying to me, and I don't know how
to fix it. I think the way that I personally am doing it is being hyper vigilant in situations of that sort. Wench. My daughter's at an early age so that I can sort of, you know, walk her through what's going on, so that there isn't a period of time where she's just not talking to me about it,
because that's what happened with Maggie too. You start to feel shame and then you just clam up, and that's when the people who are making you feel the most shame are able to, you know, move in and essentially establish residence in your soul.
Yeah, because even every woman isn't on the same page yet, right, Like we're having the conversation, so like, if you're a thinker and you're actually worried about this, you want to change the pattern of behavior of women moving forward. But all women don't feel the same way. Some women like that they think men should be in charge of society and women should be demure, and you know, a housewife is a great thing to aspire to be and that's all you should ask for.
And this whole women's lib movement is too much.
So it's like, for me as a woman, I feel so passionately about impacting any young kid girl specifically that I can with the knowledge and the power of what it means to be a fully actualized woman and not being so deferential and attention seeking from men. You know that that's not where it's at, and that is a disease. Like we're not going to be able to turn that around in our lifetime because you know, that's how we
were raised, thinking that that's such a good thing. I think I was going to ask you about putting your own story in this series. How did you feel about doing that?
I mean, I felt apprehensive about it, but I also what I also felt was, you know, I have put these three women's stories into a book and now adapted it for show. The idea that I would be too sort of precious with mine was not something that felt right. But more so I kind of I'm more of like a, oh, I don't want anything about me to sort of take away from anything about them or other people, because I didn't. I just didn't want to take up space in that way.
But when I realized that it was good, it was the sort of the true ecosystem of the story of the book and then the story of the women and
all of us, it just sort of made sense. But yes, I was apprehensive, and there was a moment where all of my worst fears were sort of realized when my husband and I were watching a scene that on playback on one of the monitors that Shyleen Woodley had just done an intimate scene with an actor that was sort of recreating a scene that my husband and I had actually had where a condom was lost inside of me on our first date and you know, he's trying to
fish it out, et cetera. So we're watching the scene on playback and she comes up behind me and she goes you little creeps, and I was just like, oh my god, it's so humilian. I'm like, but I'm working. But ye know, I was apprehensive or I was nervous about stuff like that. But Shylene is so is such a consummate professional. She also it's not while it is me, and most of the things that are in the show that happened to the Gia character did happen to me.
Shey Lene also, we discussed and she created her own version person, her own character, because it's not like I'm some you know, historical figure. You know, it's like the Queen where you know exactly how she does this, Like nobody gives a shit about how I drink tea.
So there is a lot of condom use.
I've never seen a show talk about condoms more or people use condoms more, because I honestly haven't used a condom in a really long time.
I'm going to be honest, and I was like, oh.
Great reminder, great reminder that we're supposed to be using for I'm having a lot of random sex.
But there's so much like realistic sex in this Like the condom Use, there's period sex, there's like funny laughter during sex, which you it happens in real life but never on tech.
Yeah, and I also love that there's so much eye contact from the women moving into the sex scenes, you know how sometimes because it really made me reflect on my own like sexual kind of arc of my life. I remember being so much more inhibited and insecure and self conscious as a twenty and thirty year old, where I wouldn't make eye contact when I was getting and becoming intimate with someone.
There's this kind of like.
Avoidance where you're like kind of giggly and looking away and you can't take the straight action without the talking when you know you're an intimate moment. And there's so much female validation also in this series, which was so beautiful, kind of circling back to what I was saying earlier about imprinting on anyone you can that's a younger girl or even a woman our own age because we don't all have the same amount of confidence, we don't all have the same amount of.
Agency and self esteem.
And I loved that scene specifically where shy Lean Woodley is telling Betty Gilpin how beautiful she is in love, Like, you're a beautiful woman. Look how beautiful being in love and being happy makes you. And it was so gorgeous because we all need to be saying that to each other more frequently, regardless of whether you're in love or not. You know, when someone is beaming, you got to say, look at you. You're feeling yourself, but this is a beautiful look on you. Look how proud you should be
of yourself. Like we don't do that enough at all as women with each other.
We don't. And that's exactly right. And that's one of the main takeaways I hope come from the show is exactly what you just said, because like we were talking about Sloan before, when we were like, oh, well that's too much. You filled up your cup. You're done, your
cup is full. I think that when we see someone else getting either more than what we have or something we wanted, it's really hard for us, I think, as a gender, to be happy for another woman because of the way we've been pitted against each other in our patriarchal society. So I think it's like imprinted in us to not do that. And so I think exactly what you said is right. We need to be like I'm
happy you're happy. I'm happy you're smiling, and or I'm not happy right now you're smiling, I want to smile. How can I smile too? I think that's like the honesty and the sort of like coming at things or even like I'm a little upset that you got the man of your dreams or the woman of your dreams and I am still looking, but I hope to find
that too, and I'm so happy for you. Like I think that being able to hold the hands in our support of one another is really one of the most important things we do.
That and eliminating the negative talk that women say about each other. There's all so a very pertinent scene where she one woman is calling another character a slut, and she's like, don't do that.
That's gonna come right back around at you.
You know what I mean.
We shouldn't be using that language about each other. Men use that language. We shouldn't be calling each other sluts or any of the other derogatory terms that we do.
I mean, I do like the word cunt. I'm gonna say that, but I like that more as a descriptor.
For a man than a woman. But I like saying the word cut. One of my very closest friends hates the word cunt.
She hates it. She's like, it's such a vile word.
I'm like, I understand you, but I think we should bring it back around and like it is in vogue, and I like calling a man a cunt, like he's a real cunt, you know. So anyway, Okay, on that note, Lisa, Sorry, this conversations all over the place, but I I'm all over the place and I love it. Okay, great, So we're going to take a break and we'll be right back with Lisa TODAYO from Three Women.
And we're back with Lisa. What's happening, Catherine? We have so many things to talk about today. Are you ready to give some advice?
Absolutely?
This is a juicy one. Oh okay, juicy one. That's I always like to start with juicy.
This email comes from Miley. She says Syra Chelsea.
Spelled differently, but obviously she's trying to shrow.
Dear Chelsea help. I am a single mama to a five year old daughter and became a surrogate three years ago. I gave birth to my friend's son last June, and we've always planned to do a sibling journey. We waited a year, and this summer began the process for the next journey. I've gone through medical and legal clearance, and I'm now playing a waiting game on sibling journey.
Yes.
So, so basically, she had the child for her friend and they planned to have a sibling for that child with her as a.
Surg Okay, yeah, I really wish everyone stopped using the word journey.
It's very confusing.
The fuck I thought she was doing ayahuasca. I'm like, wait, what what's happening? Okay, sibling journey? Okay, got it.
Yes, so I was just waiting to find out the transfer schedule. So it's happening, so.
That she's gonna have another baby for these people, right, Okay, here's the thing.
Last month, my college sweetheart reached out to me to see if I'd be interested in catching up. We spent the first night laughing and reminiscing for hours on a rooftop lounge, followed by legit fireworks. He reached out almost immediately after I left, and we planned our next meetup. We're now three wonderful dates, in one of which was me joining him on a sailboat for his best friend's birthday. To say this was all unexpected is a massive understatement.
I will always lead with honesty and know I need to tell him I could very well be getting pregnant within the next few weeks, but how the timing feels like a mean trick from the universe. Any advice, Miley, huh wow, Yeah, yeah, I.
Have like a question.
I know, it's so annoying when you have questions because they're not fucking here.
I know. I'm just like, it's an open question. Was she getting paid for the surrogacy, because it sounds like the new guy and the sailboat maybe it was his friends. But if he's maybe she doesn't need I'm just kidding.
I'm like, really, this is where you're going after what we just talked about a man.
To provide for hers.
We're talking you.
Don't need the money from the surroga so you have a new boyfriend, he's got to throw sailboat drop.
No, I was kidding, but my but I guess it's like she's doing this for her friend. I mean, gosh, I feel like I personally would say that, wait, she already has the date for the transfer. The date. Ya, This is like blowing my mind.
I know, I know.
So they don't have the date yet for the transfer, but they are cleared for transfer.
Oh okay.
If they don't have the date, I would say, give it another two dates with the dude, right, I mean, like we can wait and see, we can wait a month. I just no, you don't like, oh no.
This is what I'm thinking out loud, is if you made a can comitment to do something, Because there's a threat of professionalism in this.
Right, she's not a friend, she's not just doing it for free.
I'm presuming if she's getting paid to do this, and this is a commitment that she has made. I feel like it's like any other work commitment. You don't stop your commitment because you started dating somebody. So if you take out all the ingredients of the situation and just look at it, yes, right, like, Okay, you were scheduled to go work for these nine months, but you just met a guy that you really, like, are you gonna quit your job for the next nine months?
I don't know if it's. If she's not getting paid and it is just a service she's providing, then that's a little bit different.
But she still made a commitment to help these people, so it shouldn't even be impacted by the boyfriend. The new boyfriend, and he's not their boyfriend yet because it's only been three dates with a friend's sale.
Book college flame.
I kind of feel like, since she has a child of her own, which is sort of like very in the very beginning of the email, a pregnancy might not be that far out of the realm of his expectations.
Who knows, Yes, I did both for it. Let him figure his shit out.
And if he's like, who knows, maybe he's got a pregnancy fetish, maybe he's into it, or.
Maybe he's I don't want him to have a pregnancy fetish.
What is that?
Even that doesn't sound good.
I mean, then what happens after the baby's born? Yeah, pregnancy fetish? Like, let's not get carried away. I think this is a good subject matter for your next book.
I totally I totally agree. Too bad, it's about grief. But yeah, I hear both of those. I think the work commitment and the or you know, whether she's getting paid or not, the professionalism of having made a commitment. But the only thing I'll say, which is why I do like the idea of waiting a couple more dates, is what if this is the guy of her dreams and you know, it's sort of what if it is the person for her? That being said, if it's the person for her and she says, I'm planning to be
a surrogate, how do you feel about that? I think that should happen regard wardless because then you find out you know what kind of a person he is, and he might be like, oh, I don't care. And if he does care at such an early stage, then I would be like, oh, maybe he wasn't right. So it might end up being an easier answer if we ask more questions.
I know, I'm just trying to think some I never try to think like a man because I don't really care.
But I'm just trying to think.
I don't really care what they're thinking, but I like to I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like to be dating someone and then then to be like, fully, nine months pregnant, you're in love with them and they're having someone else's baby.
What does that feel like? And I just realized I don't care again.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I don't care enough because it's like it's really nothing, has nothing to do with you.
It's just a body changing exactly.
So I would say, yeah, you could wait a couple more dates, just so everything's out in the open and you can clear the air and make sure he's provided with all the information. And again like, if this guy is it and you guys have this great connection, yes, I understand it. Nine month pregnancy is a big deal, but it's nine months. It's not the rest of your life. And it is again a commitment that you made.
I really like that, And I.
Think maybe now you tell him I did the circusy thing a few years ago for my friend and that was a really cool thing for me. And then maybe in a couple of dates, when we wait a couple dates to tell them, hey, remember what are you telling about that circucy thing.
We're doing it again. We're doing a sibling journey. So maybe it's like peppering it in, but definitely don't use the term sibling journey. Just say we're fucking having a sibling. Okay, I mean, that's it. And on a personal note, I would do anything to avoid a pregnancy. I would do anything. I would be like, this is the perfect out.
Like if I weren't looking at this situation trying to be objective, which is what I am, I would be like, get the fuck out of that fucking surrogacy thing commitment you made and go be with your boyfriend.
Okay, but we're not talking about me.
We're talking about someone who's nice, generous, has already done this for another person, which is pretty much the biggest gift you can give somebody, and really, so there's lots of different feelings about this, but I think she should focus on the fact that she has stood up and said she's going to do something, so you should follow through with that. And we'll leave it at that before Lisa says anything.
Else, all right, Miley, keep us posted.
Our next caller is Sarah, and her question dovetails with so many of the themes in the show and in the book. So she says, Dear Chelsea, I've been in a relationship with my boyfriend Chris, for the past ten years.
I'm twenty five and he's twenty six.
We've faced significant struggles, particularly in the last four years, and it feels like we're stuck in a painful limbo. Four years ago, Chris told me he hasn't been attracted to me since our sophomore year of college.
This aggravated a.
Deep wound that I've had all my life, manifesting through eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and low self.
Esteem due to PCOS.
Despite my efforts, and for people who don't know, PCOS can cause you to have some body changes, some weight gain, that.
Sort of thing. What does PCOS stand for? Polycystic ovarian syndrome?
Right?
I get yeah, last one to the party as usual? Okay.
Despite my efforts to improve my self image and our relationship through therapy and self care, our intimacy has been non existent for three years. A peck good night, and that's it. I've tried to address this gently and consistently, but I'm beginning to fear that staying in the situation means disrespecting myself. Chris is incredibly caring and kind, making this even harder to stomach. I'm finding it difficult to balance my journey of self acceptance and healing with the
need for a reciprocal and supportive relationship. Our attempt at couple's therapy didn't result in much, and I often feel like I'm the only one actively working on our issues. I've tried my best to be patient and let him work through this at his pace, and I know he feels terrible, but nothing ever changes. This situation, combined with the grief of losing my mom to early onset dementia this past May after caretaking for her for two years, has left me feeling deeply stuck and isolated. Am I
holding on to false hope? Or is there a way to address these issues constructively? Chris has been my best friend for most of my life and I can't imagine life without him. I'm not conventionally attractive and I come with a lot of baggage for a twenty five year old. So if this man who has known me for so long doesn't show me the love I need, how will I ever get anyone to love me the way I need to be loved?
Sarah, Hi, Sarah, that's hi, wo Hi cutie. This is Lisa TODAYO, our special guest Today.
Hi Lisa some order to meet you, lovely to meet.
You, honey, honey.
First of all, please don't ever say you're not conventionally attractive.
Yeah, georgeous, I.
Going to say. I was just going to say the exact same.
You're beautiful, insider, your eyes are beautiful. I can see that you have a beautiful soul. Please don't even talk about yourself in that way.
I'm going to this. This is not going to be an easy phone call for you.
Okay, Right, you're in a stale relationship that has expired, and I understand that there's an attachment issue, that you're attached to him a different in a different way, But you are not going to build your self esteem and your self worth by being with someone who said he wasn't attracted to you. First of all, this is all an inside job that you have to work on yourself. You have to figure out away from any man that you're valuable, that you're special, that you have something to offer,
and that you're beautiful as a person. Beautiful I just don't mean the exterior, but you're beautiful on the exterior too. But that's the last point, Like, who gives a shit about that?
Right now? This is a deeper issue.
You can't be with someone who said they're not attracted to You can't have that seeping into your system. It's like a negative thought pattern that you are experiencing. Do you have a therapist that you go to on your own I do, yes, Okay, and how is that going.
I've been going to therapy since I was sixteen for my own mental health issues, so it's a regular thing in my life. But she's not the type of therapist who will say her outright opinion about something. She'll just kind of guide me along, so I don't really know what she thinks about this relationship.
Okay, well, let's get down to business. Should you need to get into your self worth and your self esteem? Those are your major points of interest for the next six months to a year. Is building yourself up, and the way that that's going to happen is by initiating some independence for yourself first and foremost. I don't think you should stay in this relationship any longer than you have to. I really think that you are going to give yourself a huge gift by getting away from the relationship.
That doesn't mean you don't love him, that doesn't mean he doesn't love you. It just means that's not that's not your future, and it's holding you back because these thoughts that you have about yourself. You have to retrain your entire brain in the way that you think about yourself, and that might mean getting a new therapist who's going to help you achieve that.
You know what I mean.
Sometimes when we're a therapists for too long, it can get a little bit stale. And I'm a big advocate of jumping around and moving around to different therapists at different times in your life.
You have different needs throughout your life.
Right, Okay, that makes sense.
I guess I get hung up on I have empathy for where he's coming from and that he didn't necessarily mean physical attraction.
I read him between the lines.
Is he less interested in being intimate? And that's what caused you to ask? Or is it? Yeah?
Yeah, so there are some intimacy issues that had just gone unspoken and I brought them up and that's kind of where the conversation led.
And that was about three four years ago.
But you said you read between the lines. What did he really say?
Well, my therapist was wonderful to remind me that this probably doesn't have much to do with my physical appearance.
That has nothing to do with that about there's a lot about his.
Own self confidence and self image and.
How he feels in this relationship. So I've been trying to focus on that.
Okay.
Also, I want you to think about this when I'm going to say something. This moment in time is not the rest of your life. This is a moment in time, and you have the choice and opportunity as such a young person to look at like the big picture of what your life can be. And it's up to you to make like to create the engine to move forward. It's up to you to go, Okay, my life can be bigger than this. I can love myself in a big different way. I could find someone where with the chemistry,
it's just about chemistry, you know what I mean. You have to have the right chemistry with people. And sometimes chemistry dies and sometimes it fades, and sometimes it's a lie forever.
But regardless, you have to have the spark between two people.
That can create that when you're attracted to someone, you can almost work through anything together if you both have the same desire for each other. Yeah, you know, and if a relationship has fizzled out, that's okay. The only mistake is staying in it for longer than you need to. Once it has fizzled out, that doesn't mean it's a failure. That means that period of time is over. It's completed. Now you can move on to the next phase of your life.
And I know one of the biggest fears for you too is losing him. But it's okay. If this transitions into a friendship, and in many ways it seems like it, maybe he already has.
Yeah, I was gonna say that, Yeah, it does feel like a friendship.
And I asked him specifically in preparation for this, why he still wants to be in a relationship with me, and he says there's something deeper there than friendship. To him, just the joy I bring to his life is what he said, is deeper than friendship.
But that's friendship.
That is friendship, right, So it is it's hard to imagine redefining that after being in a relationship like this for ten years now, but I think you're right, there's definitely some at least redefining that needs to happen.
I can tell you for what it's worth from my own personal experience that I my boyfriend throughout high school and into college and beyond. I was with him for many years. Very similar situation happened. We broke up, it went on for longer than it should have, many years longer, and now we are still friends to this day, and it's great, Like it's a really great friendship. But I do rue I do miss the days, the years that I that I stayed if I'm just telling you that
and what it's worth, because I was. I was terrified of losing the connection with the person who I had been with for so long, and that's the most normal feeling in the world. It is. It's going to be very hard, but you are ultimately going to get what you need and probably still have this person in your life.
There's a difference between attachment and attraction. You have an attachment to him, and that's fine, and that's a friendship. That's not a love interest. You need to develop your like love affair with yourself. You have your whole life ahead of you. You're incredible, Like I can see the kindness in your eyes. I know this is upsetting to hear, but I want to hear from you how you feel about actually ending the relationship, Like, do you think you have the ability?
I know you have the ability. Do you think that that you're capable of doing that in the near future?
I do If that's what's best for both of us, I have the strength to do it. It's hard to imagine losing his family.
They've been You're not going to lose his family.
You're not.
No one's going to say We're never going to talk to you again. That's just not You've been together for ten years.
Right, And I guess with all the change that comes with losing your mom, it is hard to imagine the change of.
How long ago did you lose your mom?
In May?
I'm so sorry? Yeah, thank you so Mark. Yeah, he and his family have been really great about helping me through that. So that's another thing that I just have been benefiting a lot from their support. But I think you're right, something needs to happen. It can't keep saying like this.
But also, your mom passing away, you have to think about what your mom would want for you. Yeah, would your mom want you to be in like a stale relationship just because you're getting support from them because of her passing? What your mom really wants for you is for you to have agency and for you to go after your dreams and to find yourself in a real concrete way.
That's what any mother would want for their daughter.
So even in moving forward through these difficult moments, because there will be many difficult moments, you have to bring your mother's energy into your body and do it for the both of you.
That makes sense. Do you have any thoughts on what to do? Like I just I feel like he's coming from such a kind place that he really wants to improve this. That's what's so heartbreaking, because I feel like I need to give him space to try.
To Are you attracted to him?
I would be if I felt safe. I don't know that I feel safe to let my guard down that much yet anymore.
After getting rejected so many times. Yeah, yeah, that's understandable. Yeah.
And it's not like he's the bad guy, you know what I mean? No one's the bad guy here. This is just like a relationship that has run its course. And I think you're doing you and him a favor by actually taking the step instead of just sitting there and waiting for another five years to pass. I think the conversation starts with like, Obviously I want you in my life forever. Obviously our friendship is so deep. I want to continue this forever. Your family has been.
A rock for me.
I don't want to lose that. I don't want to lose our friendship. But I think we have to really be honest about what this is. This isn't a love relationship anymore. And I have needs that I would love to go explore. I have to go find myself in a real way without having like a codependency with each other.
And you also want that for him. You want him to be able to find his happiness and his truth. It's not just about you, it's about both of you.
You're actually stepping up to the plate where there's two people who are like being passive you know what I mean, And you're saying, no, we need to face this situation.
It's going to be difficult.
But if we do this with love and out of respect for the ten years that we've spent together, we can separate in a way that we won't ever have to really say goodbye to each other. We can have all the good things remain. Yeah, but we're not in a relationship anymore. Like under the subterfuge of a romantic relationship.
I think that makes a lot of sense to me. I just I worry that the pain of we couldn't be enough for each other might be a little too much to keep that relationship going, that friendship.
You think that will impair the frinch, You think that won't.
Just that I wasn't enough for him and he wasn't enough for me.
That But honey, that's not what it is.
Okay.
It's not that you're not enough. It's not that he's not enough. It's that you're no longer a match. You're enough, he's enough. You're not for each other, You're not a match. It's like things that go together and blend well, there's alchemy, and then there's the opposite of that, and then there's no strings attaching you anymore.
You know what I mean in that way. And it's not about you being deficient. And I understand that these are words.
It's not like, oh, you're going to leave this phone call and be a completely different person. But I want you to re listen and re listen to this conversation because there are people that you don't have chemistry with, and then there are people that you do. And there are different kinds of chemistry. There's friendship chemistry and then there's sexual chemistry. And hopefully in your next relationship you're going to find both of those things and they're going to last.
And it's just the alchemy's not there for the sex.
Yeah.
Sure, And I know you're scared about not giving him enough time or robbing him of the joy that he gets from the relationship.
But it's been ten years, so there's enough time, right, And.
It's been three years of this sort of like no sexual tension. But I think one thing that you need to realize is by staying, you're not only denying yourself the time to go and find the next right thing or being by yourself, you're also robbing him of that opportunity as well. As much as he probably wants to stay in the relationship because it's safe and it's comfortable and you're obviously wonderful, and why wouldn't he want to be close to you, you're denying.
Both of you that opportunity to go find what's right for you. That makes sense, So what's the plan?
What if what if you started by writing a letter, because I think a lot of this is your fear about how he's going to react. So I think if you write a letter to him that you can just sort of feel and say everything you want in it, and then and then just have it and sit with it for a couple of days and then maybe imagine how he will react to some of the things in there, and just sort of because I think right now the idea is just so big and giant that you just
need to take it step by step. And I think writing a letter that no one has to ever see if you don't want them to, is a good first step to just getting everything down and getting yourself comfortable with even the potential of doing this.
That's a great idea.
I love that idea. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea.
You're obviously a beautiful writer, like your letter you wrote to us was very beautiful. So, Lisa, I wonder as another creator, Sarah is also a creator Chelsea too. Is there some advice that you could give her on turning her story and these elements, these painful elements that she's going through. What can that become in the future.
Gosh, it can become anything. I mean, there's a line you know, someday this pain will be useful to you that I've like, if I didn't just have that in the frontal lobe of my brain every day, that I would not be able to make it because life is so hard sometimes. I think that the idea for me, as someone who who writes and creates other things, the idea of being able to take the pain and metabolize it and change it into something that can help other people,
especially you know, in your line of work. I think that the ability to be able to tell a story, if it's your own or someone else's, or an adjacency like that, the idea of everything you're feeling now, kind of taking it down as a note and observing it the way. You know, we're meant to look at moments and live in the present, which I have not figured
out how to do, but maybe one day. But in the meantime, just looking at the moment and just noting it down, noting the pain and knowing that one day you're going to be able to turn that pain into something that somebody else can make somebody else feel. See that gives us all the purpose. I think you have all the purpose in the world.
I really do.
Thank you.
I do too. I do too. I believe in you. You're going to be great.
This is important. I'm so glad you called in. And I want you to reframe this idea of loss. You're also going to gain so much by taking this step and moving in the right direction of your life, like you were going to gain. So like you're thinking about all the things you're going to lose, you don't have to lose all those things.
So I don't want you to look at it like that.
Just you're redefining the relationship for what it actually is instead of pretending it's something it's not.
That is really helpful to see outside of my own head, to get that perspective.
Thank you.
Yeah, So write that down, okay, Okay, I will, and then write down everything else because you're going to use it and create and move it into art at some point in your life, and and you're going to help a lot of people.
So thank you.
I have faith in you.
Please keep us posted, Okay, Well, let us know what's going on, and if you need to talk again, we'll be here.
Okay, thank you both so much.
Okay, bye, cutie, thank you.
Bye.
Oh God. I know that one's a heartbreaker.
You need to give her my phone number she needs to text me on a daily basis. I'll send her positive affirmations about herself.
That's the thing. If we just had more people doing what you just, if that were just going on everywhere, we'd be good. Yeah.
Yeah, Okay, Well, let's take a quick break and we'll.
Wrap up with Okay, Well, we're going to take a break and Lisa and I are going to take a virtual bath, and we're back.
Well, Tamara says, Hi, Chelsea, My daughter's turning sixteen this summer and finishing her sophomore year in high school. I've been talking to her about her plans for college and trying to nudge her to get prepared for applying.
And choosing a major, but she's been brushing it off.
I've sent her many resources on the college selection and application timelines, but I doubt she's looked at any of them. Her signed up for info packets from various New England colleges and sent them to her, but again I doubt she even looked at them. When I asked her what kind of job she wants, she gives me vague answers, like something in biology. I told her the best way to narrow down a career path is to look at current job listings, examine the skills and requirements for the
available positions, but mainly look at the salary offered. I even sent her tiktoks of young adults talking about selecting a profession, where they expose the fact that if you ask any kid what profession they want, they list the same ten professions teacher, doctor, and nurse, policeman, firefighter, etc. When they're in fact over ten thousand professions out there
that kids just don't know about. How do I motivate my teenager to start seriously thinking about selecting a career path and applying to colleges before it's too late.
To Mara, I mean, first of all, she needs to understand you have to stop paying for things for her, so that she has to understand that eventually she has to get an income. That's the first step to let them know that they actually have to have some accountability.
I mean, I don't know, Lisa, what do you think.
I don't know how you motivate a sixteen year old because it's like if you're nagging, nagging, nagging about the same thing, it has the opposite effect.
Yeah, Well, if they might go out and get a job really fast. If you're nagging a lot, you know, just to get out of the house.
That would be a good It doesn't sound like that's the situation now.
No, No, I think she's the mom. Sounds like she's doing a lot of the right things. But I think that the first thing you said is essentially, if the daughter needed something, she would try to find a path to get what she needed. It doesn't sound like she needs or wants anything, So I think the goal is to create the need or the want, and if creating that is you know, taking away some of the assistants and support for the non food and water type things
the children need. I think if taking away some of that extra support for extracurricular things might make her daughter go, oh, WHOA hold on a second, the buck is gonna stop at some point. But I think, you know, in terms of path, I believe that she will find her path because it sounds like her mother is going to stick with her and stick on it. But I also think that,
you know, it might just it it it. Maybe she doesn't go to college right away, you know, maybe that is her path, and maybe she sees all of her friends in college being happy and excited about X, Y or Z, and then she's like, I want to go, or maybe she finds a completely different path for herself and doesn't. But I do think that what you said is number one sort of you know, increasing the motivation to be said.
She needs to show some initiative, Like she has to know that when she's done with high school, if she doesn't go to college, what's the game plan. She's gonna stay at the house. You have to define what's going to happen. She's gonna stay at the house and she's gonna have to go get a job. Did you want to go get a job or would she rather go to college. I'm sure she'd rather go to college than get a job. In the interim, She's gonna have to
fucking get a part time job anyway. Since you have to start understanding what responsibility looks like, I mean, you know, you can do plenty of shit at sixteen. You can babysit, you can you know, find different ways, and in many states you can work at sixteen with your parents' permission.
So I would say try a different tactic.
Also, like what you're doing by sending her stuff is probably just nagging nagging, nagging. You need to get real with what her reality is going to look like after school when all her friends are going off to college and she has no plan.
As far as the majors go. I kind of feel like, let her go with whatever major. Don't worry about that changes their major.
I mean, every teenager I know who just went to college, like, none of them are going to be what their major exactly.
One step out of time. Yeah, yeah, totally, so totally okay, Well any the pressure off a little bit tomorrow, but also set some boundaries. Yeah, exactly. So sick of parenting advice. Honestly, Lisa, I love you. You're so fun and normal. It's so nice to meet writers that are normal.
There aren't many.
I know, I know, I keep saying that.
Every time we have a writer on, I'm always like, thank you for being normal, And it's like what happened to me was some writer. I must have had some experience that I with a writer where I was like, holy fucking shit, is this your personality? Because I'm so pleased when writers can talk and like be normal.
Ellie, thank you.
I appreciate it because I have felt the same way after meeting many of my.
Heroes, contemporaries or heroes.
Right.
What are you reading right now, Lisa?
I am reading Bookshop Women, Big Swiss, and burnham Wood.
Do you read three books at a time.
I read more than three books at a time. I don't finish them very quickly.
I read.
I love that.
I do the same thing.
I wrotate between books and then I'm like, oh, this one I didn't finish three months ago, and then i just jogged my memory with the last chapter. I'm like, okay, I'll finish this now exactly.
And I also do that for inspiration and stuff like that, but that's exactly how I read.
I once read a book and halfway through I was like, have I read this before?
And then I was like, oh, because that happens with TV all the time, right, But when it happens with a book, I'm like, wait a second, I know what the fuck is about to happen to you? Anyway, Okay, everyone is going to watch Three Women. I'm very excited for you, and thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to see you again and a pleasure to meet you Catherine.
Oh.
Thanks Lisa, Likewise, I can't wait to see you the next time I have to interview you, the next time I have to the next time I have to interview you.
Okay, Okay, bye, Lisa, thank you so much, thank you hearing you. Okay.
So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina.
I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and Kansas City.
And then I will be in Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My first three dates in Vegas are September first, Labor Day weekend, and then November second and November thirty. I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout the end of the year in December, So if you're in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Okay.
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law, and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com