The Light of a Narcissist with Jenny Mollen

I love yes, and as he did basically like a body scan and pulled cards like these animal cards for each part of my body. And one thing he told me was he asked when I'm sleeping. He told me it's kind of later in the night, to know, maybe a little later in the morning then maybe like someone with kids or something. But he told me I need to start going to bed at nine pm and waking up at verse six. He said, the time between nine and midnight is when your body is in healing mode.

So he said, you're not allowing your body to heal from midnight on. It's like preparing for the next day. Yeah, So I kind of blew my mind a little bit. I'm like, maybe I should try this. I love going to bed at nine o'clock. I mean, nothing gives me more pleasure than knowing because then I'm so energized in the morning and I'm so clear. I love it. I love sleep. I can't tell you how much I love sleep. I just love it. Are you a good sleeper? Yeah? I mean I wake up a lot, so that's annoying.

But if I don't drink, I can have a really good night's sleep. I mean I pee. I have to pee like twice a night, so that's that's annoying. I'm sure that will only get worse as time goes on. But Joe doesn't get up to pe in the middle of the night. I envy him for that. My husband will drink like a liter of water right before bed, and then he has to get up. I'm like, well, there's a reason for that. Hello, we understand why. But

he just gets very thirsty. He's very thirsty. Well at least yeah, Well, I guess he's thirsty while he's sleeping, which is an unusual phenomenon. Right, I have shows coming up tomorrow night. I am in Springfield, Massachusetts, that's June sevente and I'm in Windsor, Ontario at Caesar's Windsor the Coliseum. And I'm coming to Vancouver and Calgary and Honolulu and

Cahulu Cahulu, Hawaii. That's on Maui, Honolulu and Mauie. I will be there July one and July three, and I will have my lover with me there, so I know how much Hawaiian's love that excellent. I do have an update for us, Chelsea. What is it? What is this? Is from remember the woman who called in who her daughter heard her having sex and was very upset. Well, the daughter wrote in, I'm very excited about it. The subject line is twenty year old daughter overhearing mother having sex.

I am the daughter, Dear Chelsea. She says, just listen to the episode comic stating comment in which I was featured in a story my mother quote, Jenny wrote it, I love this. This is the story of my life. Is talking about someone who I don't think is ever going to listen to the platform I'm on and finding out within thirty seconds. Yes, she said, I'm not looking for any sort of public update, but I thought i'd

feel you guys, in in case you were curious. I don't live with my mom, but was home visiting from college for one night. That's the night she chose to have someone over, so surely it was intentional. I also didn't call her perverted or a slot, but I did say I felt disgusted because well I did. This is the third or fourth time I've experienced her doing this, and after having many conversations, I was quite honestly over it, which resulted in me not speaking to her for a

few months. Once I was able to get the image somewhat out of my head, I was ready to speak again. I love my mom, and she's made me a very strong woman who's unashamed of my sexuality. I all so. I think she's a badass and a beautiful woman who should be able to bang every man on the black. However, I'd like it if our sex lives could be kept separate.

I love the podcast and listen to every episode. I have no clue how I missed this episode until now, probably because I wasn't talking to my mom L O L. However, we're all good now, and although our relationship won't be quite the same, it is somewhat back to normal. I emailed her asking if it was okay to share this.

She said sure, I'll look forward to listening. I wanted to add that my mom offered me tickets to Chelsea's show in Jacksonville, and it was definitely the icebreaker we needed, maybe a subtle bribe, but also there was no point in staying angry since it all worked out. We loved the show. Thanks the profane daughter. Wow, I love that. I know what a cutie. Yeah, I mean that is sucked up, like if your mom saves them one night

for you when you're home. But how did your the daughter know that it's that one night that she doesn't funk all the time, you know what I mean? And that that's just like her daughter's there. It's like that can't be too much of an inconvenient I agree with her, though, there's no reason of sex while your daughter's home. You can't take a couple of nights off of fucking, Like, come on, do a popcorn and a movie night with your daughter. Yeah, put a plug in it or something. Jeez,

but I'm glad they're all back together. That sounds nice. Yeah, exactly. Well, before we get to all the fun stuff, we'll take a quick break. Okay, sounds good. We'll be right back. Okay. So we have a very good friend of mine on the podcast today. She's an author, she's a memoirist. She's got a new book coming out that I'm really excited about. It's called City of Likes. She also has a podcast. Joe and I were her very first guest on her podcast. It's called third Wheel. We tell our love story on

that podcast. Oh and City of Likes is already being adapted into a TV show with Diablo Cody attached. So that's another person that I like a lot that I'm friends with. I'm friends with a lot of people that I do not like, but I'm also friends with a lot of people that I do like. That's not true. I'm not friends with anyone I don't like. I don't have time for that kind of those kinds of shenanigans. But her name is Jenny Mullin. Hello, Hi are you on? Hi?

Hi sid Biggs. I'm said Biggs today in London. Oh you're in London? Yeah? Oh my god. Later for her, it's seven o'clock right. I don't even know anymore. I took any ambient yesterday. I'm just I'm on an ambien now, Jenny, so don't worry. Fabulous, I love it. I always like to take an ambien or a muscle relaxer. Right before I got started, I didn't know you were going to London.

I just had Katherine. I just had dinner with Jenny and Jason in the city the other night, Joe, Jenny, and because we're a quartet now, the four of us, they're so they're so excited. Oh yeah, we all wore Khaki and we all yeah, and they're so excited that I actually have a real boyfriend that people like, you know, people just are so psyched about it. And then we saw Sarah Silverman's play The Bedwetter. Yes, yeah, it was great. There's this girl and it who's awesome, the girl that

plays Sarah so Rman as a young girl. She was really awesome. And we had a lot of book talk because Jenny, who is a really good friend of mine, has a new book coming out which has she has been toiling away on in the same vein as you know Ernest Hemingway pretty much. She was working on this book for so long and so fiercely that it is really something to celebrate that It has been printed and is coming out on June. Yes, everybody, It's called City

of Likes So long. That last time Chelsea sent me her book, the inscription said, here's my book, Where the fuck is yours? So long? It literally before ever this one. It's like a pregnancy that won't end. Yeah, that's a really long pregnancy. So talk to us a little bit. Tell our listeners about the book, because I would describe it as a great commentary on modern society, present day society,

and the embarrassing nature we all have towards social media. Yeah, it's definitely takes wipes at a lot of these influencers that you know, we either follow, we hate follow, or we just like still have them in our feed like we don't know how to get rid of them, we don't know how to like pull away. And it really gets into this culture that we're living in right now, where we are so addicted to this need for external validation.

And I really wanted to write a book that dealt with the stuff that I was seeing in Manhattan, where you know, when I got to New York, I felt like in l A the currencies fame. So you're only as good as the last pilot, you shot like, that's the only reason people will only talk to you if you're like on a billboard or a TV show. When I got to New York, it was interesting though, because

I sort of came with these strings attached. I had this following of women between the ages of eighteen to twenty five with a little bit of buying power, and these influencers but also brands. And it's not really ladies who lunch anymore, it's ladies who launched. So they all have their own companies. Whether they're fake companies are real,

doesn't really matter. But I was embraced by them, and I was brought into this weird, underground sort of society where it was like mommy supper clubs, power moms supper clubs, and like weddings for dogs and fashion Week, crazy, these parties that you would just like not believe we're real. And a friend of mine said, Jenny, you can't write another memoir right now. You need to write about what's

actually happening to you. And what I was seeing was just this disparity between how we were like curating motherhood and how we were presenting it to sort of our fans and friends and followers, and then like what was really going on? And that just kind of haunted me, and whether I wanted to write a memoir or not, I knew I will be driven out of New York City if I don't call this book fiction. So that's where we're starting off. Guys, that's funny. I mean, how

would you describe your relationship with social media? I would say that before the pandemic, it was like a cigarette that I would hide from my children, the other woman in my marriage. You know. It was something that I was doing that I knew I shouldn't be doing as much as of it as I was doing. I didn't really want to admit it to myself or my family. And then once the pandemic hit and we were just stuck in a house together, nobody could go anywhere. It

was like, guys, this is the real thing. What happening? Are we gonna live or die? You know? Refresh every ten fucking seconds. No, but I grapple with it all the time. It's when you have kids, you're just riddled with guilt in general, and all you kind of sit there wondering is how am I going to suck them up? And for me, it always comes back to I am

so desperately. I'm just so scared that one day my kids are gonna look at me and say, like, why did you choose that stranger on the phone over like the people that were sitting in front of you, Why did you reach for that? Even if it is a path lavic reaction, it just it kills me to think that this thing that I have this relationship for, this like insatiable beast that I keep eating in order to sustain my career is going to really impact my children.

That's just like for me, kill me. Yeah, but not enough for you to stop using social media, especially right now because I gotta sell the fucking box. Maybe I can throw my phone out the window. Yeah, that's so funny.

It's so fucking true, though, I mean, who does who feels I want to know who feels good after they look at social media, especially if you're on a train and you're just scrolling for a long period of time, like if you're spending an hour or something doing it, and then all of a sudden you realize that you've been doing it and you don't have any remorse. Is really where where the question lies? Because I feel like that's pretty much where we are in society. Nobody gives

a funk about how shallow or empty it is. Vapid is really the word, right, You're just like looking at other people to decide what do you think about when the phone tells you. The worst is when the phone says you've scrolled enough, You've seen all there is to see. There are no more update. It's like the person at the bar being like, I think you're good. All right, right, I've scrolled too much. My phone is telling me. Now, first of all, I've never gotten that message, so I

think you. I think I think you're advance. Yeah have you ever seen that? I have not. But I have like a limiter. Oh yeah, my my thing. I did once get to the end of Facebook, like back in the day, and I was like, this was a waste of a Friday night. It was. It was a terrible feeling. It says you're all caught up. Oh my god. No, I have like a limiter on there, and I always in like fifteen more minutes, fifteen more minutes. The limit

does not exist. Give me fifteen more. Yeah, you have a tier on Okay, that's that's a good idea, doesn't do it? I've heard, I've heard of people having timers, but you have to have will power in addition to the timer. And now it's hard, it's so hard. Press your situation. The marriage in the book is a big part of it, and I think that mirrors your relationship with j Sit a little bit right or a lot. I don't know, Yeah, I really I knew when I was writing the book that I didn't want the husband

to be Jason. So I was very conscious the whole time that I didn't want to write him just because I have memoirs and I wanted that dynamic to be different. But it does talk about a relationship with you know, somebody coming into your marriage and kind of pulling you out. And not only have I had that happened, because I do find these mentor figures that come into my life. And or Chenny likes to like fixate on, you know, somebody that she's either met or has stated, someone she's

stated or someone you know, Jason stated. She gets fixated and she likes, Yeah, she likes to really focus on that because she's fascinated by that person and she wants to know everything that It's like, it's just so there's just so much low hanging fruit there comedy. I just love it, But no, I also find myself. I'm I'm always finding these mommy figures and I attached and the and they become men tours, and then all of a sudden, I find myself just like kind of serving these narcissists

on some level. And there's no greater When the narcissist shines their light on you, you like there is no greater high. You just feel so seen, You're like I am chosen. But when that light blows off, it's just it can be so painful. And I know that in these female relationships, we do sort of date each other, and there are and I've experienced these relationships that do kind of get toxic and and have on occasion pulled

me from maybe priorities at home what have you. And I wanted to really get into that and discuss sort of that dance that we do as women with other women.

So that's kind of more what in terms of the marriage, There were definitely fights with Jason and I along the way in regard to how much time I was spending with this one particular person and how my life started to revolve around this person and so I wanted to really kind of talk about that and just like the pain that comes along with it, because I think that when you have to end it, it's hard, especially if they represent your mother on just being family can have

You've known me for years, I can tell you everything, but also especially when your husband has to see you more in a relationship that was only taking away from him, which is, you know, essentially on some level an affair in his mind. You know, yes, yeah, exactly, It's like watching your wife more in her ex lover, right, Like what I have to be privy to this? Yes, why do I shoulder you're crying on Jason's Definitely we have

a similar dynamic with our relationships. Yes, you're in charge and I'm in charge, and they're both they both are total men, but they both like will defer to us on major decisions right, completely completely. That's why I feel so good about this relationship for you, because I feel like you're finally with adjacent type and I like that. Yeah, like Joe doesn't put up with any of my ship either.

I came home Sunday Sunday morning from New York. We went shopping and we've grabbed some lunch and we were going into get a Starbucks and I said, Hey, I'm gonna just go to this shop. We had like two hours together before he had to go to leave for his show. I go, hey, I'm just gonna go into this little boutique because I didn't wanted to grab some clothes. And I go, I'm just gonna go and hear while you get a coffee. And he turned around and looked

at me, goes, no, you're not. We have two hours together, get your fucking ass over here. And I just I just started laughing because I was like, yeah, it's totally right, Like that's a fucking dick move. But of course I'm a dick, so I didn't even think about it. You know. No, I have the perfect comeback for you. You've just said him like, you're the fucking person who made me a shopper. Yeah, yeah, I go that's I thought you'd be happy I was shopping.

Yeah right. But I also like that he's just like, no, you're not going there, don't even Yeah it's hot, yeah yeah, But I think as a strong woman, you definitely need somebody who can like give you that push back. My husband I have a very similar dynamic and for a long time I thought like, oh, am I being too bossy.

Am I like making all the decisions. And it took like eight or nine years before I was like, he actually married because he wants a bossy woman in his life, Like he wants to make decisions when he wants to, but also like he wants veto power. But if it's like where we're going to dinner or what we're gonna do for the weekend, he's like, just lets you pick,

Like Jason claims he wants me to have control. And for instance, where we're doing some like redecorating the house and he's like, I don't care, do whatever you want. And then all of a sudden, things up here. He's like, that'scons war work, no way, Oh that looks terrible. He's like, we need more light here, we need It's like he has so many fucking opinions. But then you know, the stuff starts showing up to his house and and it

just immediately leaves. He sends it away. No. Yeah, decorating between couples is also a big no no. That's no fun to do. I think that's like a whole reality show. And just te him to go away. For three months while you sort some things out and then get back to him. Yeah, he'll come back to the finished product. It will be beautiful. Yeah, I love it. He's like, you're going to give away everything because I do tend to just like ship his things out while you're a

woman and Jason's technically a man. Okay, So we're going to take some callers, Jenny, We're gonna have some people right in. Some people call in and you'll see, and we're just giving them real advice. Okay, great. Yeah, before we get to that, we will take a quick break and be back with Jenny Mullen and Chelsea. And we're back with Jenny Mullen and Chelsea and Catherine hi Well. Our first email today comes from Kristen. She says, Dear Chelsea, I have a bit of an unusual question for you.

I've been together with my husband for four years now. Over the years, I've noticed that he farts really often and they're always loud, but never stinky. We became vegan a year and a half ago, and I was a big mistake. I was hoping that taking dairy out of our diet would make his gas better, but it stayed the same. It's hard to ignore his farts because they are so loud and they're really starting to annoy me. I've asked him to walk out of the room to fart,

but he thinks that's too much effort. What do you think I should do? Sincerely, Kristen, Oh wow, way to start off the episode. I Jenny knows more about dieting and what causes farting than I do, probably because she has all these issues and she has to eat very clean. So, Jenny, what do you have to say about the fart? On the subject of farting, I think I would say that I agree maybe he should leave the room if it's bothering you, if it's starting to become like an issue

in the relationship. But I would also ask what he's being fed making him part all the time. I feel like that he could do some simple changes, maybe some food combining, which basically food combining. It's like you don't eat your mains and your meats together. So you have a grain and you want to do star cheat vegetables with that, fine, so have that you have to wait

three or four hours. Then if you're going to introduce an animal protein or have the animal protein, but you can't choose something from every category and have it at once. That's just creating a terrible situation for you. Also, like if you're eating dairy, you might be lactose and tolerant without knowing it. You might be allergic to gluten, you

might have all these food allergies. So a go get his food allergies tested, so you could just eliminate Sometimes it just takes eliminating one thing and you don't even have to eliminate it forever. Sometimes you can reintroduce it after the fact. And the other thing is, I don't know what you want to do about him farting and leaving the room. I mean, the whole farting thing seems like a real bummer, So I would immediately get to the root of the problem rather than worrying about if

he should leave the room or not. And if he's farting while he's sleeping, what's he gonna get up in the middle of the night and walk out? And then I mean that doesn't make any sense either. That actually think it's enjoying the farting because I think Jason really Relish is a good fart. He wants to create a scene with it. He likes the drama that comes with Yeah, so I mean, what was her name? What was our Kristen? Yeah,

So get to the root of the matter. Otherwise you're just putting a band aid on it and it's not going to be gone anyway, whether he leaves the room or not. Just find out what the problem is. Because farting is gross. You don't want to be doing that on the constant. It takes away from the special moments and that Jenny's talking about with Jason, like when you have it and he's starting in the other room r right now. But when you have it happened once in a while, it's more of an event than you know,

a recurrence, right, it can be a special moment. Yeah. I think the food issue is really not where I expected this to go. But my youngest son, we go to restaurants. Then I had to tell him. I said, you can't scream. I farted out loud, and so now he goes, mommy, but I'm not gonna say, I thought, my god, he doesn't quite understand. But yeah, there is an announcement in my house I live within. Yes, it's a whole entertain anything in your house. Yes, Well, Kristen,

have his allergies checked and get back to us. Let us know how it goes for you. Yeah, or don't get back to us right well. Our next email comes from Jessica. She is in Australia, so she's on an even later time zone than you are, Jenny. She says, Dear Chelsea, years ago, when I was seventeen, I dumped my girlfriend of a year, and then one month later she started dating my mom, fucking lesbians. Two years later they got married, and then shortly after divorced. Surprise, surprise

and special. Oh my god, Yeah that would that's like Meady, I'd be writing all about that. Yes, that's the short version. The result of this is I really struggle to open up to people about it without talking about as a joke. This has obviously created a lot of tension towards my mom and has kept me from being as close to my family as I like to be, even though we now joke about the whole situation. I'm a writer and a poet, and I'm in university to hopefully publish a

poetry book. I'm nervous, but no, I can be successful if I open up. I'm currently working on writing a one woman show. How do I share my truest realist writing with the world without being terrified of the repercussions and alienating my entire family? Jessica, Hi, Jessica. Hello. This is Jenny. Jenny's our special guest today, and this is Catherine. Hello. How are you good? How are you? I'm good? Thank

you well. Jenny has written about some very personal situations, so I thought that she would be great to help us with this issue. Yeah, so you are contemplating basically telling your story, which is totally your right, right right it is. I mean, my boyfriend's dealing with this. I've done this, and Jenny's done this and much and in all different sorts of ways. But I think the bottom line is that everyone has a right to tell their version of their story. Jenny, why don't you take it

from here? Yes? I agree. I feel like if your mom and no offense to your mom, but if that she felt comfortable enough to be with your ex girlfriend and marry her, then she deserves you do. Can't think about her work, but I think she kind of deserves you to be open and honest with your story, and you have a right to tell your truth and your

side of things. I mean, you know, my parents definitely didn't love hearing all of the things I had to say about my childhood, but on some level, because they're both kind of narcissists, they were thrilled. My mom now when she meets people should be like, I don't believe everything you hear. She like loves it. She loves that. She comes off like this crazy, fun, eccentric person that you'd love to have a dinner party. And it's never

as bad as you think. I feel like, when you're writing the book, you always think, oh, fuck, these people are going to kill me. Everybody's gonna hate me. I'm gonna alienate this person and this person. But once it's in the world, it's funny. It doesn't ever have the impact you really think and you and I think you should just kind of embrace it as being your truth. As long as you're self deprecating and really get into your feelings on the subject, you have every right too.

And I think that your family should be proud of you for taking that jump and risk. Well, thank you. My mom is like classically a narcissist, so she'll love it. She'll be trust me. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like she doesn't really pay attention to anything I do unless she can brag about it, so she'll love it. You have a book. Any closer than that, she's going to be psyched. My daughter has a book, that's it. Okay,

Well that makes me feel a little bit better. Yeah, But on a more, on a more, this really has nothing to do with anything I'm about to say. But on a more personal how just out of curiosity, how long were you dating this woman? When you dated her, so, I was like sixteen to seventeen, and she was about seven years older than me looking back, is obviously gross. Yeah, and then my mom was eleven years older than her, So yeah, it's gross. It's all gross. It's so gross.

Are you do you hang out with them? You know they're divorced now surprised. Oh yeah, that's a good thing to mention. Yeah, for any other mothers out there who are listening to this thinking about hitting on their daughter's ex girlfriends, please do not. People are so fucked up. It's so fucked up. So yeah, that's kind of they've broken up, and we were really close for a little while, but then I stopped giving her what she needed, which was some healing from her divorce. But I never got

that back from her for what happened with everything. Has she never apologized or said she regretted it. No, not one. They're still friends, I think. And when they were together, you did you spend time with them? Yeah, we did. Because my sister had a baby yesterday, so I have to go and see my mom to are Oh, i'd take congratulations, but I guess yeah, But that's kind of the main reason I paper relationship with her is obviously for my siblings and my nieces and nephews. So well,

that's big of you. Yeah, yeah, I think you have to get into the relationship with your mom. I mean that seems like a bigger story than even just this woman. I think that you could fill a whole book just with stories, probably with her, And I think that you're going to help a lot of people. I think that when people you know, that is such a common dynamic, not necessarily stealing somebody's person and marrying them, although I do know somebody has a baby with one of their

kids ex boyfriends girlfriends. But I think that I think it's a story that needs to be told, and I think it will feel really cathartic for you to just get it on paper. Yeah, that's what I'm hoping. I just want to like get She's never going to give you what you want. I hate to tell you this, like I'm still waiting for my parents approval. You have to write it. Okay. That makes me feel a lot better. Thank you and waited for you. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm

just like, I'm just scared. But my my siblings know what she's like, and like everyone kind of knows, like everyone knows what the situation is, but everyone's just really nice to each other. So no, it will set you free. I think you have to do it, Okay, I hope. So thank you. Did you say you wanted to put this up as a one woman show too, or as a Yeah, I'm hoping to make it a pretty show. Yeah that's a good idea too. Yeah. I think it'll be great for you. And everyone's telling their story. That's

what everyone's doing as an artist. So it's your story. You have every right to it. It happened to you. You were like essential character in the story. So yeah, it's gonna be awesome for you to do that and experience it and all your siblings are probably gonna just love seeing it put up like that, you know, like, oh, we finally, this is what we all experienced and someone has the guts to do it and say it. Oh my god, thank you so much. I feel so validated.

Well great, well, good luck. Let us know what happens. Keep us posted. I will do. Thank you so much, sealthy. Yeah, thank you here, Jessica, whoopsie doodle, that is a fucked up situation. I mean, I suppose you would have to be a narcissist to funk your daughter's girlfriend. And also that relationship was illegal. I'm like, yeah, what's the age

of consent? I also had an illegal relationship when I was younger, underage, But at the time, you know, I thought at the time, you just think like, oh, this older guy, like they're interested in me, and then later you're like, wow, that was so gross. But even me, just what's wrong with that guy? You're like, you can only impress somebody with seventeen a little looser. I know, nobody's only even give him the time of day. I'm

sure that's why. No. I definitely would feel responsible for my relationship with an older man because I definitely I know that no man has any right to be around a girl that's under eighteen years old. Now, at that time, I believe I said used him. I convinced him. I convinced him to be with me. I convinced him even though he had reservations about my age. I was like, no, no, you don't understand, like I made this guy have a relationship with me and he had no chance to not help.

So I don't want to lay the blame where it's undo. But yeah, now we know that men aren't even allowed to think about that. And then when you think about it, you're like, yeah, what are you thinking? It doesn't matter how mature or cool you are. But on the subject though, because this comes up a lot talking about our stories and how you shroud certain people, because it's like you have your right to your own family. I mean they can sue you potentially if you disclose their information without

them signing something and using their real names. Yes, they can sue you. Because the my second book, I started off saying, you know, all the people's names have been changed, characters blah blah blah, except my mom. Her name's Peggy. I don't know what the English I didn't want to sue you. Well, no, your mom's not gonna sue you, though, Like I mean, are you probably had her sign something You're I'm sure you did. Maybe you should send her a text right now, be like I need you to

sign this. Send her what's that thing I released? You know, what's one of those forms that you that you can sign digitally? Now that the docus I gotta fucking doctors sign it, just go quickly, or a video recording saying I give you the right and the right and allowance to use my name and likeness in your book and just put it on. Yeah, that's funny because in my first books, like I gave my brothers and sisters different names, and then it was like why was I doing that?

Because it's so easy to find out what their names are. So for like the second book on I just started using their real names. And no, I love that about your books, saying the names literally just change. And she's like, oh, I'm too lazy. I'm like, let me just tell you their real names. It's not like it's a secret. It's so easy to look up and half the time I'm

doing things with them. So ye, but I do know when you're talking about someone, or you're telling a real story about someone, especially if they're of note, you have to change their name, likeness, occupation, all of the things that could connect a stranger to who they are. Yes, yes, yes, which is totally reasonable. Reasonable. We are going to take a quick break so you can hear and add and then we'll be right back. Our next question comes from Liza.

She's thirty eight living in New York and she's a photographer. Dear Chelsea, I spent most of my mid twenties to mid thirties building a photography career that I became very proud of. I was in l A for ten years, where I met my husband, and by the end of my time there, I was shooting for clients like Betsy Johnson and l Magazine. Given that I was always the kid with no direction growing up, I was beyond proud

of myself. We left l A and twenty nineteen for New York because my husband got a job, and while it seems like the transition would be an easy one from one big city to the next, my photography career plummeted once COVID hit. We landed in the Hudson Valley, a place I love, but also a place where I feel more lost than ever. The career I had in l A is realistically not feasible where I am, unless I want to spend lots of time traveling, which no

longer sounds ideal. So my question for you is what advice do you have for someone who found their passion and once thrived in their life, but now lives a completely different lifestyle without a clue as to where to pivot next. I'm okay with a career shift, but I don't know where to begin or what I'd even do, and I definitely don't have the hustle energy I had in my twenties. Any advice would be so helpful. Lisa, Hi, Liza, Hi, Hi, how are you? This is Jenny, our guest today, and

this is Catherine, who you've met. I'm assuming Hi. Hello. So you're in the Hudson Valley, yes, And there's no opportunity there for you to apply your photography there to do anything with it. I mean, it's not like I'm sure they do shoots up here for all sorts of things. I just don't have the connections that I have in l A. And I'm I'm just just still kind of stuck because I'm up here, like my husband's working and I'm just sort of sitting here at a computer every day,

And what were you shooting? What kind of photography were you doing? So I was working a lot with modeling agencies, doing advertising, editorial look books for fashion brands. Yeah, I mean I feel like you can still do all of that there. I mean you're not that far from New York City. I mean that's not an unreasonable commute. It's not like flying to Los Angeles. You just have to do networking on that end. I mean, they are doing shoots in Hudson Valley all the time. Although I mean

you see that in Magazine's Town and Country. You see it with people's homes up there. Architectural Digest does stuff up there. I mean there's room for you to maneuver and like figure out some kind of line of communication for opportunities that are coming up there to shoot, and also take advantage of the fact that you're so close to New York City. I don't think you have to

change careers. Yeah, I mean it was tough when I moved because I like so my work in l A was so it's sort of carved down a niche for myself where everything was like blue skies and palm trees, and that's what I shot, like, I shot outdoor sunshine. I wasn't like a studio photographer. So when I came to New York, I think I was just sort of blissfully naive, thinking that things would carry over. And we moved in the dead of winter, and I was like, oh, ship, Like, I can't do what I did in l A in

New York. And I mean, like, you're completely right about the networking thing. I'm just really bad at that. And I feel like I spent thirteen years doing it in l A that I'm just tied, like I had all my connections there. Yeah, but I think you need to just get good at it. These are all excuses. You can do all of these things. You just don't feel like doing it. And just because Hudson Valley looks the way it does in the winter, doesn't look like that

in the summer or the spring or the fall. It's like a complete opposite of what you were shooting in l A. It's rustic, it's woods, it's greenery, it's more beautiful, I would argue, So you can create all of these opportunities. I understand what you mean about not having the ambition you did when you were twenties. I can completely relate

to that. But there's times to hustle, and this is one of them, and so thinking about changing career seems like a lot bigger burden than just hustling for like a good six months and making the connections you need to make to sustain a career that can then last twenty plus years. Right now, that's a very point. Do you still have the passion for photography that you did? I do, but I like there is a part of me that wonders if the hustle isn't in me, then

maybe that says it all. And that's what sort of scares me too, because I'm like, well, maybe I'm ready for a shift, but I have no idea what that shift would be because I've basically gotten good at something for ten years, and before that I was in the service industry, and the skills that I have are very specific. Jenny, what do you think? Well, I think that there are either twos. One if you think that it might not be what's right for you and maybe this is what

you should do regardless. Is I think that you need to take the time and not guilt yourself about needing to throw yourself into a career. Again, I think I'm very competitive with my husband, so like I understand when your husband's working, you're like, I'm sitting here at home, I'm not doing anything, and you start to spin and then you start to shame yourself and you just get

into this like negative headspace. I think you need to rewrite that narrative for yourself and say, I'm giving myself time because I don't want to jump into a career if I'm already burnt out on it. Like, what is the point of even starting something up if I'm not going to find joy from it. So I think you need to say, allow yourself the time to really sit there and decide is this what I want to do next, and explore some other options before you make a move

in any direction. And if it is self photography, I think your best bet. And this is like antithetical to what my book is about, but I think you need to get online. I think you need to start shooting outside and I think you need to start posting on to talk and Instagram and show people what you can do. I think that is so so I hate networking in person. I much prefer just like you know, posting something and

waiting to see who sees it. It's so much easier than going out and having a billion drinks with somebody or a billion different people and trying to just like get in and and social climate or whatever you have to do. All that bullshit drives me crazy. So I let your work speak for itself if that is what you want to do, but first give yourself the time to really marinate and think about what is the next step for me? What what do the next ten years

of my life look like? Yeah, you're allowed that you've hustled, you worked your ass off. Yeah, And I think that's a good point that networking post covid looks a little bit different than it did pretty covid, where it's just like go to parties, go to parties, put in FaceTime all this garbage, and like now it's very different. It's

it's online and agree Instagram and TikTok. I feel like Instagram sort of punishes new creators, but go on TikTok obviously for photography it's a little bit different, but people will come to you. Basically, you can shoot there like all over you. Yeah, especially all these like fashion influencers. They're like, would you like some more experience for your book? And maybe you're thinking not really, bench why don't you

pay me? But you know, maybe you do want to just have that person make an appearance and repost you sometimes that you know it gets more work. And also in terms of networking, it's like just also reaching out with the to the context that you do have from all of your experience thus far, whether it's in l A or not. People are always working in New York and London, in l A, in Paris, so like just

reminding people, oh, hey, I moved to Hudson Valley. If anything comes across you, just keep those conversations going because you never know what's going to drop into your lap that way, and just by applying any sort of hustle to any situation, you're going to find out what you're gonna want to do if it isn't photography. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a very good point. Anything creative that you can do, even if it feels sort of disjointed from what you've done in the past, is going to

get those creat of juice is flowing. I mean That's really why I landed in podcasting, because I was like dipping my toe in this water. I was writing, I was doing voice over, I was doing all these different random things, and then I started my first podcast, and that's sort of like the it's snowballed and I found myself being so creatively fulfilled by it that, you know, some of the other things that I had been really passionate about before fell away, but I was able to

use the skills I learned doing them in podcasting. Right, that's a really good point. Yeah, it finds you. I think if you put that energy out there, it finds you. Yeah. And I've connected with actually people downstairs that we're doing a creative shoot today. Amazing actually have a job right now because I'm not actually working as a photographer right now.

So I don't even know what this call is about. No, it's just it's a creative shoot, but like just to meet, Like I've connected with them randomly online, their makeup artists here, and they seem amazing. The model came up from New York, so shall see. Thank you, because I mean thank you to all of you. But like I do feel like sometimes it's it's difficult when you're just like sitting by yourself,

and like you said, you get in your head. Yeah, I've been where I'm just like sitting and like I want to create and I want to do stuff and I really want to work. I just don't, you know, I just don't know what to do. It's like there's so many options that I just don't Yeah, but you do know, Just start with the first thing, you know,

start with the Instagram, the TikTok. If that seems too big, send a couple of emails to people you've worked with to just say where you're moving and be proactive, don't be defeatist. That energy turns into negativity and then you're just sitting there for having a pitty party for yourself, which is how you entered this call. So get your ship together and go get us a good update and follow back up with us and give us some good news. Please. I needed that. Thank you, Okay, see you later, Thanks

for calling. Sky. I had a mentor who told you to go get your ship together. Basically she was like, moved a coast. You don't belong in Chicago. The creatives, yes, but no, she called it. And especially for for Liza, who says she had no direction growing up, and obviously she's a creative. But this mentor, Debbie Phillips called it

stomping your perimeter. What that means is like all these random jobs or experiences in your life eventually go into what becomes your dream job, and they all get used, they all get used, and then eventually, you know, you might have a new dream job that uses your skills you you got from your first dream job. But she'll get there. She just needs to keep those juices flowing. Yes, yeah, but I know that feeling where you're just like, oh

my god, it's it feels like this just like insurmountable thing. Yeah. And also just spending that kind of time alone, what that does to your psyche. Like you could just tell by her whole demeanor that she's just been alone too long. She's just in her head and like, uh, because that feeling sucks. You know, that's when you really need an adderall.

But we can't prescribe medication because we're not doctors, and adderall it's not something that I would prescribe if I were a doctor, even though I've had some good times on adderall. Well. Our next question comes from Jess Jess says, you're Chelsea. I'm about to turn thirty seven and have been married for two years. After suffering two miscarriages and nine months we decided to try IVF. It's been a

brutal past two months. To put it lightly. The reason I'm writing this is that this whole pregnancy, loss and infertility process has given me zero interest in sex. I jokingly refer to myself as a laborate these days. With all the doctor's appointments, tests, surgeries, shots, et cetera. Lately I view my body in a strictly medical fashion. I don't feel sexy or desire any pleasure physically. We probably

have sex about once a month. My husband has been wonderful about it, but it can't help but to feel terribly guilty, like I'm failing him as a wife. I know sex is such an important component to marriage, and I don't want to deprive my husband, especially so early on into marriage. While I'm super attracted to my husband and love him to death, I just have no desire

these days. So I guess my question is should I put in more of an effort and just do it, or is it okay to take this time during this difficult journey to use my body how I feel most comfortable, which is not having sex. Thanks Jess, Jenny, you didn't have to do in vitro. Right, No, I wouldn't have probably had kids because I think that Jason would have done in vitro. He was desperate to have children. His biological clock was drinking and we needed to like have

a baby to make him happy. And and I'm so glad we did. But he really had to force me off that ledge. Like I was white knuckling it to the bitter end. I was just so afraid to be a mom. But no, we didn't do i v F. But I know a lot of friends that have been through it, and it's brutal. It's just like, oh my god, emotional journey is insane. And the thing is it's not permanent, but it is annoying. But it's like that's how people feel when they do IVF. Overwhelmingly, that's the consensus that

you don't want to have sex. So I think that is your right to not want to have sex during this time. And to explain that, I think you said it nicely, like using your body for the purposes of getting pregnant and getting healthy and having a successful pregnancy. Could you try more? I mean that's up to you, like if you want to, yeah, sure, but you don't have to, and just remind yourself like it's not going

to be like this. It does take a tole on the marriage because men need to fuck their moody, and that is what helps their mood. Unfortunately, it's as basic as that. Is that true, guys, then I should be having more sex too, because I don't even put enough now. I think that men really appreciate having sex like it helps that. I think it helps them calm down. Do you think it to calm down? Do I need to be having more sex with you? Because like she's saying, word,

I be up. I'm still having sex one once a month that I'm thinking that's fucking great. It sounds like a lot. No, Jenny, once a month is not good if you're not going through I V for Jason. Am I gonna have to Jason again? Yes? And I think it's okay. Let me talk to Joe about that. Joe, but like he is sort of interfering with that. Little Joe requires a hundred of my time. But anyway, back to the person who actually called in for some serious advice.

That's my advice is everything I just said, you know, absolutely take this time. If that's what you need, then that is your right. Yes, and I think that you should be having less sex because I think you're going through a lot. You don't even need to put out once a month. Yeah, and like there are other things you can do to satisfy his needs without him having to get all up in your space, watch some porn exactly, or like helping you know, give him a hand whatever

else a fucking child. Yes, I find a hand job to be even sillier than a blow and Harry, it's almost just like you're just jerking someone off. It's there's something very I don't think I've ever given a hand happen. I know, like that just seems like a long way to go. Like there's so many more effective ways to make that happen, Like a hand job. Who has time for that? It's so silly. You can just read a book while you're doing Yeah it is. Yeah, anyway, so

whatever you do, don't give a hand job. That's the title of this episode. Yes, well, Jess, let us know how it goes. And also like get yourself a massage. From someone who's not trying to have sex with you, so you can like feel good about your body. Yeah, good good, That good one, Catherine. So our last little question here, and this is a quickie, is Dear Chelsea. First, I want to say you are amazing. I'm a huge fan and really appreciate all that you do. I just

wanted to ask for book recommendations. I know you're an avid reader and was just wondering if you knew of any good reads for shifting one's mindset to more positive thoughts and gaining self confidence. Also, if you have any recommendations on fiction books or a series you really like, I would definitely appreciate it. Thanks Chelsea from Virginia. Oh,

I'm reading this book Between Two Kingdoms. But it's not necessarily upbeat, but it does it will make you grateful for your own life and existence because this is a story about a woman who gets diagnosed with this blood cancer when she's twenty two and then everything that happens after, and it's it's brutal, like in terms of what you could you realize that the human body can endure. But it's really also really well written. Till Between Two Kingdoms,

it's a great book. It actually really I read it this weekend and I came away feeling very grateful and optimistic. So that's a good way to make yourself feel good and grateful for all the things that you have and don't have to experience. And it's an eye opener. But in terms of what's a good fiction book, I always recommend Cercy That by Madeline Miller. That's a good fictional book and that takes you to another place and it's just like magic Land, and usually I don't like that

kind of ship, but I do love that book. Jenny, have you read any good fiction lately? I read this book it's called Mouth to Mouth and it was really fun. I loved it because I don't want to give it away, but it's these two guys. They meet up in an airport and they haven't seen each other since they went to school together when they were younger, and just the story that sort of unfolds the ending is killer. I just I really loved it. It was a great read,

so different, it just yeah, really captured me. I also just read the new Rebecca Searl book recently, One Italian Summer, which is a great summer beach read, and then don't forget to order City of Likes, which is coming out June four, but you can preorder it now on Amazon. City of Likes by Jenny Mullin. It's better than all

of these books, so to order that. No. And then as far as a self help or like a you know, really working on your self type book, I always come back to The Untethered Soul whenever I'm having a panic attack or I'm feeling scared that something's going awry or I'm gonna die. I read The Untethered Soul and chapter two mind blowing. I I love chapter two of the bookshets the best chapter, but that's a great one. All right, Well that's a good list of recommendations. We've talked about

that book before. Yeah, start there. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back with Jenny and Chelsea. And we're back, Jenny, Do you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Yeah, I'm curious as somebody who is touring with comedy, who's out there telling jokes in this post COVID world, post Trumpian era. I'm afraid to be on Twitter these days, and I've really I'm just so much more self conscious about the things that

I'll joke about publicly. I'm wondering has it changed your comedy, and like, what are your thoughts on that? What would you advise people who are out there running off of the mouth. I think it's made me sharper and more clever. Like I think my stand up is stronger than it ever has been because of the very essence of being mindful of others, you know what I mean, and not going for the cheap joke or the easy joke or

the low hanging fruit. Actually being sharp about what you're going to talk about and what your point of view about it is. Because there's still plenty to make fun of it. All we have to do is not be sexist and racist, you know what I mean. That's not at all order, especially for for so many comics. Like That's why I keep having these conversations about reviving Chelsea Lately into Chelsea Later, because I feel I've seen so many comics on the road now it's like, this isn't

a hard time to be funny or be yourself. There's just parameters that have been set that should have been set frankly a long time ago. So I think you're going to enjoy it. It's just it's as a creative all you ever want to do is have more clarity and be sharper. And what about politically do you avoid or do you go straight forward the jugular? Well, with politics, I think I had so much. I didn't do a

lot of good. I don't think by being so politically out there like people, it was very divisive Because of my personality, I engage much more on a different decibel, is what I've learned about my own political activism. My opinions are of course the same and hopefully you know, changing as time goes on all the time. But I wasn't making the kind of traction and the kind of

things happened that I wanted to. And I realized there's a different volume associated with every part of what you do, and you can be much more effective if you pay attention to that. Yeah, yeah, And on that upbeat note, I um going to go in the bathroom and finger blast myself, Chelsea. Is that a hand up? Talk about low hanging fruit? Jenny, I love you so much, Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited

for your book. Everybody please grab a copy. City of likes and let us know yeah start book clubs and tag us and tag Jenny. That's great, Thank you, thank you so much. This was so fun. Tell Jason, I said to funk Off. Okay, okay, tell Joe the next time we're getting together, the next look we're gonna go for is like all Sailor we did, We already did, Army Medic. Next, he had some good stuff from that

Martha's Vineyard brand. What's it called? With the whale your advice, He's got a great how I already have his outfit checked out. Yeah, yeah, okay, no problems, okay, thanks. So if you'd like to ask Chelsea a question, email us at r Chelsea Project at gmail dot com