Hello, Catherine.
Hi Chelsea, you were telling me you added some second shows in some cities.
What do you have going on?
Okay, guys, I have added more second shows to my Little Big Bitch tour. I added second shows in Hollywood at the Pantagious. I am going to be there two nights October twelfth and thirteenth. I added another show at the Chicago Theater October twenty seventh and October twenty eighth, one of my favorite places to perform. I added another show in Portland, so I'll be there November second and third.
And I added a second show in Boston at the Weighing Center, so I will be there November sixteenth and seventeenth. I also have two shows in Seattle, San Francisco, New York at the Beacon and Washington, d C. I will be there October fifth and sixth. And a special shout out to Phoenix, Arizona, where I'm coming Saturday, October fourteenth. And then I'm coming to Cleveland Columbus in Pittsburgh, So suck on that, you guys. I can't wait to set everybody.
Oh and I'm coming to Eugene, Oregon too, everybody. That's November ninth, twenty twenty three, and I will be at the Clubhouse in East Hampton, which is going to be a very intimate show on Saturday, August twenty sixth, So if you are in the Long Island area, that's where.
I'll be awesome. Well, we have a great guest today and she talks all about women and the patriarchy and it's very exciting.
But I have a question for you.
You've talked about how you know your mom and your sisters were big influences in your life. But I'm curious, who are some other powerful women in your life, either growing up or early on, and what did they teach you?
I mean, I guess I would start with my third grade teacher, missus Sheckman. She was a big influence on me because she loved me and she just showed me such like maternal love. And I went and stayed with her a couple times at her beach house with her husband, and my mom loved them, and she just really took me under her wing. I think she sensed how to neglected I was, and she must have felt for me, and she was just so sweet. I still talk to her.
I talked to her. I haven't talked to her in a few months, but she calls me every once in a while and she's just she lives in Florida, and she just extended love to me and tenderness, and I really that made an impact on me to extend love and tenderness to others who or who who I could see were neglected. Yeah, so I and my mom was
very much like that. My mom was very sweet to people when she knew they had issues or even my girlfriend growing up was really in a bad home situation, and my mom sensed it always told her she loved her, because my friend's parents had never told her that they loved her, And so that was nice. But as far as powerful women like, I don't know that anyone I looked up to like the lessons I learned were powerful.
I think I I wanted to always be powerful because I didn't feel like enough women were in my life were powerful, and it made me, just as by instinct, want to be more than what I was seeing, Like I was like, this isn't good enough. Why does? Why are all like I want to be like a boss bitch from a young age. And it's not even that I wanted to be. I just inherently was it was in your nature, Like I just wanted to be in
control of my own destiny, not reliant on anybody. And I think that's the always been the theme in my own experience, is that I'm dependable. That's all I wanted to do, because I saw so many people in my life that were not dependable. In my mind, however, I interpreted my brother dying, my mom not picking me up from school, blah blah blah, I wanted to be dependable, and so growing up that was always like, I wanted to be the friend. If you call me, I will
be there. If you need me, I will be there. You know you can always count on me. And that was more than the idea of power or looking to someone who you know, in a powerful position. I just wanted to be a soft person.
Yeah, it's interesting because you it sounds like you grew up knowing you wanted to be independent, but also be someone others could depend on.
Well, excuse me while I burb well, said Catherine. Great, Yes, that's it, that's exactly right. And what about you? Who did you look up to?
I was really lucky where I grew up with a really great mom who sort of like brought in all kinds of other people. Like so many people in my life are are like your mom is like my mom, you know, like she's she's adopted everyone around her. But I also feel like I had so many other like friends moms who were like a second mom to me.
My best friend's mom always was like fun to talk to and interesting and like really wonderful and always had this like a bubbly charismatic energy and cared what us kids had to say.
You know, yeah, yeah, I.
Think that's such an important quality.
Is just like listening and being interested, and she always was that for sure.
Yeah. I remember I had an uncle growing up, and he was always interested in everything with the kids had to say. Like I remember loving going over to his house because he would spend time with me and be like, Okay, tell me what you think about this. And I was such a young girl and I got so much attention
from him. And then last summer, we were all at our family vacation on Martha's Vineyard and some of our cousins came over and then they told us that that uncle had so many affairs growing up with all of his girlfriends. I was like, oh, he was probably hitting on me, so I was like, well, you just blew that whole fucking memory that I had anyway, So well, okay. So our guest today is the host of the podcast Pulling the Thread, an author of On Our Best Behavior,
Elise Lonein. Hi, Elise, look who's here today? Hello?
This is exciting for me, you know, I love you.
Oh, thank you, honey. And this is Catherine, my producer. Hello, and we are here to celebrate the launch of I don't know why I'm holding this up like I'm Oprah Winfrey because I don't have the studio owns, but I guess I'm holding it up for Catherine, who's also read it. Your new book which is called On Our Best Behavior, The Seven Deadly Sins and The Price Women Pay to Be Good, which is a very important book for every
woman and man to be reading. So that took me a while because it's a heavy book, Like there's a lot of information in there and a lot of history. I think you do a good job of really kind of bringing it back to yourself a lot, and the ways that it's kind of imprinted itself in you and
your experiences in this world. And I think all women should have to understand or should want to gain, I guess a better understanding of where all of these ideas that we have about our responsibilities in society came from and how many millennia they have been making their mark
on us. Yeah, And what we are able to do as women to kind of take our our own agency back and stop the art of performing for others, Yes, while also remaining true to who you are in the idea that by doing that it even gives yourself more room to give. Like, when we take care of ourselves, we are able to take care of others in a more impactful way. And if that's what we're trying to do in the first place, is take care of everybody, then we should really start with ourselves.
Can you just do my book tour for meat?
Yeah, no problem. Yeah, I just need a ton of wee to constantly talk about the same thing. That's how I make things exciting. Is I just add weed to it. I'm like, okay, I can talk about this again, because the book tour becomes very monotonous too. I know you have to repeat yourself a little, So talk to me and talk to us about your impetus for writing this book and tell us a little bit about all of your research and history.
Well, unsurprisingly, you may know this about me, but I am a good girl. I have spent my life achieving and trying to be the best at everything and every sphere of my life. And I hit a point several
years ago where I have a recurring panic disorder. I have a chronic hyperventilator and I hyperventilated for more than a month and just hit a wall of trying to understand what it was in me that was driving me to try to reach some invisible finish line where I would have safety and security and be loved and be enough. And I recognized, despite everything that I had achieved and how much I had done for other people, my family, my coworkers, that I was only driving myself deeper into
a hole. I was the farthest I'd ever felt from emotionally free or comfortable, and so I knew I needed to address this, whatever it was in me, these invisible voices that were telling me that I was bad, that I wasn't enough, And that sort of began the journey of what would it look like to actually turn and face this rather than trying to continue to outrun it and In that process, I came across this code of goodness that is so obvious it's invisible, I think, to
all of us, and this punch card of goodness that women specifically try to fulfill in our culture. Regardless of whether you're raised in any religion or know anything about religion, these are cultural rules at this point, and if you actually don't achieve them, you deny them sloth, pride, envy, gluttony, greed.
Because we're treating they're so bad right to practice any of these things.
Yes, that I recognized in that all the ways that I was policing myself and sadly policing other women.
M hm.
Yes, that very much struck a chord with me. When you're talking about the judgment we have, I'm a very judgmental person, so I struggle with this a lot because I'm always trying to just go at everybody with love and no judgment. But I'm so opinionated. So it's just a fucking pain in the ass. But it's not fair to judge everybody. It's not fuch fair to judge anybody. You're supposed to be looking at people with sympathy and
compassion and empathy and no judgment. I mean, I can't wait till one day feel that, you know for more than a couple of fleeting seconds. So talk to me. How you recognize that in yourself?
Yeah? Well, the big question that I feel like I've been circling for most of my adult life, definitely since twenty sixteen and the election, is why do women have so much trouble getting on side with each other? What is it in us that makes us so it feels instinctual. I don't think it's instinctual. I think it's culture. But why do we slap each other down? And why is it so acceptable to dismiss each other with comments like I just don't like her, or who does she think
she is? Or she's too big for her breches? And these are all cultural refrains we've said, we've heard, most likely we haven't interrupted them in ourselves and in conversation with each other. And I really wanted to understand that in myself. Why did I have that reaction to specific women, not all women? And what I realized I sort of started with envy. It's a gateway drug. I realized that those women that were bothering me were women who were pushing on a dream I had for myself and they
had something. It was envy, They had something that I wanted for myself, and I just couldn't actually admit my own wanting or acknowledge it. And I think we're all conditioned to suppress it. It comes up, and we suppress that wanting and we just attack. That's what I think is happening.
Yes, I think that's a great way to describe it, because you can, I mean, anyone listening to this can relate to feeling envious of another person and then what those feelings bring up for you or that you're supposed to shove them away, And it's like that's actually part of your psyche or you can call it your shadow self or whatever you want to refer to it as.
But those are natural thoughts that have that happen, and it's your job to put them in the right compartment, you know, not to act on them, not to behave in a jealous way or behave in an envious way, but to acknowledge I mean, or you can. I mean, it's really up to how you want to play this game of life. It is like, how do you want to operate within all of these dynamics and self agency and self respect allow you to acknowledge that you even
have those feelings and they're not the most powerful feeling. Yes, or what that feeling leads to, which is a truth that you're not willing yet to admit to yourself. Yes, which is I want that.
One thousand percent. It's full of really essential information. I think that our envy is our soul knocking on a door asking us to pay attention to what we want. And in our culture, unfortunately, women have been conditioned to subjugate what we want to other people's needs. It's just being a woman, one a one. We don't have great models culturally of identifying what you want and then going after it, and there aren't that many women also culturally. I'm sure it can relate to this, and I write
about this in the chapter on pride. We don't have very many examples of highly visible women, women who have dared to be seen, women who are really living their dream, who have managed to escape cultural destruction. Right like so many women, business leaders, athletes, actresses, singers follow this trajectory where we love them when they're coming out, we applaud them,
we celebrate them. They reach a certain pinnacle and then we destroy them, and we can say that those people have nothing to do with us, like people like you and me, Catherine. We can say, oh that we can get a little hit of schadenfreude or just find it kind of entertaining. But the reality is that lives in us too. It lives in all young girls. This is a playbook. This is what happens to women, and when we celebrate it, we're inhibiting ourselves from being seen too.
It has really really deep implications I think for all women.
Yes, it's something that it would be nice to have a language for young little girls, you know, and boys, everybody really, because who doesn't get envious of another person's accomplishments. But there's this dismantling that needs to be done about the way that we're taught about those feelings and all the seven deadly sins that we're not supposed to feel. I mean it, basically, your book speaks to the fact that patriarchy was invented with religion. You're not saying that,
but that's what I'm saying. That's where all of everything
started to get murky. And even in this book, I read Short History on Humanity, a few weeks ago, and that goes back to like two million years ago, and it goes back to when civilization began and the migration pattern, and it starts to understand when women became property because of burial sites like you can see that there was a change in civilization and when it's what started out equally ended up being they ended up being subjugated, and that was definitely because of religion.
Yeah. Well, and I would say I'd take that one step farther and say, you have sort of the Hamarabi's code. This for early patriarchal ideology, which was all about destroying women, like drowning women and penalizing men slightly with like a slap in the hand. And then you when your hand job, yeah, or hand job if you really transfer the penal code exactly. But then with Judeo Christian religion in Rome just really taking over, you see this moralizing that comes into it
as well. So it's not just about oppressive dominance, subjec subjucation of women. It's about you are bad and base and maybe you'll make it to heaven if you spend your life trying to prove your goodness.
Well, interestingly enough, there's also evidence to show or direct you to the idea that this is one stage of civilization and then so it started out with patriarchy, then went to patriarchy, and then the next stage it could be some conjecture, will be androgeny.
Yes, isn't that I love this idea.
I also love this idea.
Yeah, And I feel like that's what the contemporary trans movement is moving us toward, this idea of transcending gender and gender identities and living balanced between energies the masculine and the feminine. Regardless of gender, we all have both energies. I think women can really identify with this. The masculine being order, structure, truth, when you're directing, when you're organizing,
when you're making stuff happen. The feminine is nurturance, care, creativity, and men have feminine energy and desperately need to be living that in their lives fully in the creative, nurturance carrying component of self. And so I think with the trans movement, we're seeing like it doesn't matter what your body parts are, these are universal human values and it is incumbent on all of us to be balanced in both.
And imagine the lack of gender discrimination when there is no gender Yeah, like hello, that's what we need to like. I mean, there's so many advantages to understanding this movement and learning about this movement instead of rejecting it. Because if you only think there's a boy and a girl, which is so dumb, in certain places in the world they already have a third sex. Yes, so that makes sense.
And knowing that everything is a spectrum also, I think it's really fascinating to understand that and how you know our conditioning and what you're supposed to do. Even with the little decisions in our lives every single day and the minutia, we do what everybody else is doing most of the time without having our own original ideas or thoughts about counteracting that kind of behavior or making a decision not based on what other people made their decision on yes.
No.
And I think like you, for example, to me, are sort of a post hratriarchal person, and you're an incredibly good interrupter of this programming that runs in US. I feel like you have an ability to sort of stop it and question it and evaluate it and then take it or leave it in a way that I think the rest of us need to develop this ability to sort of say, is this what's running me? Is this me? Or is this just some sort of conditioning that is
informing my behavior? And if we could do that and get closer to ourselves and say, yes, I'm a woman and I'm a mother or in your not a mother, that doesn't mean that I am that that identity defines me, that I am only those things. You know, we have a lot of trouble with sort of the complexity. We really want women to be only caring and nurturing and men to only be this and it's a cage.
It's a terrible cage.
What were you saying, Catherine, You were saying something about our book before when we were talking.
Yeah, I was telling Chelsea, you know one of the most meaningful parts of your book was that first introductory portion where you're talking about the history of where patriarchy comes from, having grown up very religious and basically going to church seven days a week between.
School, and so sorry about that. Is it's you? Thank you.
I've been spending the last couple of years sort of dismantling a lot of this stuff and being able to see where this stuff comes from. You know that Mary magg Delane was you know, called a prostitute, even though that was like maybe not not what was going on.
It wasn't what was going on right, right.
She was exonerated by the pope a couple of years ago. But like the damage has already done. But like between your book, it's like when you see these things, when you read these things, your eyes are opened to like, oh, here's what's these thoughts are coming up in me, and they're just it doesn't mean they're true just because they're coming up. It's because of something I learned when I was very young that's maybe based on nothing.
Yes, my friend calls it Bible fanfic. Uh huh. I mean the deadly sins weren't in the Bible, and I
think most people never make that connection. It just these things are passed down to us, like law, and when you actually start to look at and you look at something like the New Testament, and we could nerd out on it, but just the number of mistranslations of the New Testament are higher than the number of words, and like some devastating ones, you know, like the Creation of Virginity was translation from Hebrew to Greek, and Beulah means young woman. It has nothing to do with sexual state.
That's the original hubut rub has nothing to do with whether you're married or not. Just means young woman. That was translated as virgin. Oh nice, thanks for that, it's great.
Wow. Could you also talk a little bit about I know in your book you include sadness, which was originally one of the seven deadly sins? There were eight.
Can you talk a little bit about that and did they cut that one?
It just well convenient. So briefly, the history is that they were called eight thoughts, as you said, demonic thoughts, but demon meaning distraction, and they were first written down by this by.
The way, at least speaks fluent Latin, so watch your back.
Oh oh god. So they were first written down by this monk in the Egyptian desert, Evagrius Ponticus, as eight thoughts and these distracting thoughts. They didn't have this moral tone. This is at the same time that the New Testament was being canonized. This is fourth century, and this little chap book he wrote it as like a spell book,
almost of pits of scripture. It was passed around and then it wasn't until five ninety that Pope Gregory the first turned these thoughts, he dropped sadness, and he turned the thoughts into the cardinal vices, the seven deadly sins, And as you said, Catherine, in that same homily, he assigned them all to Mary Magdalen, conflated her with a woman who anointed Jesus's hair, and turned that woman into
a prostitute. So that's when Mary Magdalene miraculously became a prostitute, and that's how they entered sort of mainstream religion and sadness. We don't know why it went away. The way that Evagris Pontikus wrote about.
It, he probably abolished it.
They abolished it exactly so it had a feminine soul. So I think it fell off because these were assigned primarily to women, and I write I really wanted to include it in the book because I feel like our culture is drenched in grief, and I think sadness, fear of sadness is lodged primarily in the minds of men, and that being cut off from our feelings. The primary symptom of that is toxic masculinity, and this inability to experience grief and to cycle and alloud death is why we're all so screwed.
Even guys that are really sweet that don't have the vocabulary to talk about this stuff end up having toxic masculinity episodes when they are challenged with a difficult conversation or they don't understand it because they think they're you know, they don't have It's like there's like a major disconnect.
And I think in the book what you also talk about very necessarily is even women are conditioned to push their boys to grow up and be men and act tough because there's a certain age where, you know, the cuddling is diminished and the kids start to understand that maybe holding my mommy's hand isn't what a big boy does, and then they're not coming to you for comfort and they're not having emotional outbursts anymore because they're told that's not what little boys or big boys yeah do.
Yes, there is this idea, this cultural remnant, that we have to turn boys into men. And you don't hear that about women and girls, but there is this masculinization, this pulling them away from their mother, so that if you don't do that, they'll be enmeshed or entrapped and the science actually shows that little baby boys are more feeling,
have more attachment than girls. And so it is a horrible crime the way that so many boys and I feel like it's getting better, but we think about our generation and a lot of empathy for that severing and that severance, and it's it goes beyond family, right, This is all cultural re enforce that with each other. So you're mocked on the playground for crying, you learn fast right to not do that.
And I love that you conflate toxic masculinity with like keeping men away from those feelings of sadness, because what do we do when we're having an argument. We use anger as like a shield from what's really underneath, which is hurt and sadness. You know, That's why so often you might be upset or you know, shouting or whatever, and what's really underneath there when you actually get to it is tears, it's crying, it's you know, it's the hurt underneath.
Yes, a thousand percent, anger is often secondary to grief, shame, fear, and anger is also essential and animating, but it can often be a protective, a piece of armor.
But it's also not useful, maybe at times it may seem useful, like coming from somebody who's naturally pretty angry, it seemed useful for a long time, but it is not the way to make my point anymore. And I down that calm, collected and thoughtful yields to much better results.
And don't you think, though, that you have learned over time to metabolize your anger process it, Listen to it, you don't just suppress it.
No, no, no, And usually I'm not angry when I have any time to think about anything.
Yeah, when you do skip the anger part, or you get past the anger part and you get to that vulnerability and that hurt, Like, that's where resolution can come. That's the only place resolution can come, is when you're honest with whatever the hurt is.
Yeah. But I do think we're so hard culturally on angry women, and so so many women are swallowing it their resentment, frustration, rage.
Yeah. Yeah. My friend used to be like, you're so so rage She's like, why are you so angry? I'm like, you're more angry than me. I'm just saying it, and you're fucking suppressing it and talking about everybody behind their back. What is that a more honorable way? To live.
Yes, well, and this is this is our conditioning. I mean, you might be again like an example for all of us of how to live beyond these sins. But boys and girls have a lot of aggression. It's very natural and very human, and boys we let them express it physically and verbally, and girls we don't. When we don't teach any kids proper conflict resolution or how to have healthy conflict, which is an essential life skill, but girls
are taught that they shouldn't be angry. It's not feminine, it's inappropriate, and so it comes outsideways, gossip, alliance building, backstabbing, exclusion, triangulation, triangulation. Really it's killing us. And then what's most painful about that is that it's then ascribed to us as our natural instinct like this, that's how you are, That's how
you are. And it's no, we're just not interrupting these cycles and talking about learning how to talk about our feelings and our aggression and our frustration openly and productively.
I heard this couple talking on Instagram, this older couple talking about their child coming forward about you know, being born a boy but identifying as a girl from the time she was a little girl and her parents resisting this, and you know, their church going and they believed everything in church and that it was a phase and that
they could you know, they just ignored her. And the mother had something really powerful to say about when she finally was able to accept it and sit down and hear her, which I think is really what it comes down to, is everybody being seen and heard. When you are heard by the people that love you like, that sets you off on the road to love and acceptance.
It sets you up for success, to be accepted by your parents and loved and encouraged no matter what you are, just for that embrace and the rejection of that sets you on the road that can be irreparable. Yes, and this woman said, as soon as I accepted what my child was telling me, and as soon as I sat down and listened to her, and my husband and I stopped fighting and just started hearing, she goes, the love
that my daughter had like lit her up. She goes, she felt so loved by us, and she her whole energy and dynamic changed and she finally was like happy and joyful just by the act of her parents accepting.
Yes. Yes, I mean it's so powerful and that's all that any of us want is to be seen, heard, but more intensely understood, I think.
Not labeled, understood, you know. And this is a conversation that came up around that video because I watched it with a friend of mine and she was like, I said, don't you think most people's fear about their children being trans is that they're going to endure all this abuse and that they're you know, they're going to be subjected
to such discrimination and you know, bad behavior. And she said, no, I think some parents that a parent's outlook should be oh no, I'm going to make sure that everybody knows as much as they know about this, and I'm going to protect you and I'm going to be there right by your side. That's the way they could be looking at it. And I thought, oh wow, yeah, that is right.
Yeah, no, And I'm sure it's a whole wash. I mean, my brother is gay and we grew up in Montana, and I remember when he came out it was right around Matthew Shepherd, right, and so my parents, who are really progressive, were we all knew, right, But a big part of it was major understandable fear about what would happen to him Ben in the wider world, and he didn't say in Montana or yeah, no, of course he.
Didn't say Montana. Why would you. I wouldn't go to Montana. Montana's beautiful, I think, by the way, Actually, so I guess I do just go there. I'm not sure.
I think that's where I did my back to schools shop.
Oh right, right, right, right right on the other side of the path. Okay, Well, we are going to have some callers, Catherine, are you gonna get us up for this episode?
Yes, We've got some overwhelmed moms, We've got some people who need love advice, we've got some cheating boyfriends. A lot of different stuff and all kind of relates to the patriarchy. So great, We'll take a quick break and we'll be right back with Elisa and Chelsea.
And we're back.
We're back.
Well, our first question comes from Carter. Carter writes, Dear Chelsea, for the last eight years, I've devoted most of my time and energy to my career and family. My parents and my sibling depend on me for emotional and often financial support, which puts me under immense pressure. Feeling stretched thin has become normal for me, and I realized that I haven't had any real fun in a very long time. I'm thirty two, single and way too responsible for my age.
How do I start to bring joy back into my life? What are some easy ways to begin to make joy a habit? Thank you both for the wisdom you share on the podcast.
Carter to practice joy, Well, I guess that is a practice. But once you get it, you have it. So you got to start practicing because it is a practice. It's like for my practice is patients, I have to practice that. I have to practice that, and now it's coming much more naturally. I think joy is about finding what brings you the joy, Like what lightens you up where you feel kind of tingly? Like is it nature? Is it exercises? It work? Is it reading? Like? What is your passion?
You have to identify certain passions that you have. And I think when you realize, you know you don't have to be good at a million different things or like a million different things, Like you can be drawn to two or three things, but make them a bigger part of your life. Like if you're an artist, you need
to create. But I think if you're having trouble finding joy, then I think instead of looking harder, I would actually advise you to just be a little bit lighter about it and take note of yourself, like be in your body a little bit more and see what brings you joy, because that's what you have to surround your day around, you know, Like I love to read books. I need to read at least like an hour or two hours a day that brings me deep satisfaction and sometimes joy.
But sometimes you know, it's heavier stuff like reading your book was so informational and so helpful, but I came away with such a bigger breadth of knowledge than I had started your book with, so so worthwhile. But I think that's what you have to find about out about yourself. But that's me sounding off. What do you have to say, Elise.
Well, I'm glad to hear Carter use the word joy because I think in our culture we're taught to look for happiness as a steady state, which drives me crazy.
Yes, absolutely, that's that's stupid. Also, I want to say that it's impossible to be happy all the time. Joy is something separate than happiness.
It is and it's I think joy can be brief, fleeting it is that, you know, Catherine's laugh it.
Is overwhelming gratitude for something in your life that can bring you joy.
Yes, just that sort of It can be five seconds, but I think that that's where you start. And finding those moments where you do laugh out loud or you have a nice moment with a barista is a great place to start. And that's the reality of our lives ups downs, that sort of emotional durability. So that's great that Carter wants joy and not happiness, because we all need to unplug from the toxic positivity.
That's toxic positivity. That's good. Yeah, Yeah, some people are really annoying with that.
Yeah, And I think because it's hard. It sounds like things are hard for Carter. You understand the underside, and so just developing the upside sort of what you were talking about, Chelsea. Just a great song. A quick walk reminds you of what it is to have that full emotional expression.
Yeah, and also to recognize it, you know, take your time throughout your day to recognize what are the things that perk you up, even if it's your coffee in the morning, When you have that moment and you sit with that moment and experience it, Like even the littlest of joys, they start to kind of multiply and then you start to understand and enjoy more and more of them.
So just pay attention to what you're feeling and thinking for the next few days and pinpoint some of the things that bring that feeling into your life.
Yeah.
I think it goes right back to what Alice and Chelsea were saying at the beginning of the episode, which is you can't pour from an empty cup. So if you're giving all of this to your family, to your friends, to whoever else needs stuff from you, you actually have to do what you need for you first. Yes, well, Carter, thank you for writing in and let us know what solutions you find.
To give you more carters.
Yes, we have our first caller. This is Emily and she's in her late twenties.
Is it Emily Dickinson?
It is, Uh, she's a lie.
I told her. She texted me earlier. I told her to call in good. We're on the text thread.
Well, she writes, Dear Chelsea, I'm writing in because I need some powerful woman love and advice. I just found out my boyfriend of a year has been dating another girl almost the entire time. I found photos in his phone of them together, not snooping, and it makes me sick to my stomach. She's trashy and she knew about me, which makes them both disgusting. We were planning our future together, we were talking about having babies and getting married, and he was with her the whole time.
Gross.
Yeah, he would go on trips with her and tell me it was a boy's weekend or he was out with his family. I need some advice on how to move on from this and get my power back. And yes, I dumped his ass, but my heart is broken and I can't stop picturing them together. Cheers Emily, Oh.
Emily, Hi, Emily, Hi, Hi, this is our guest Elise. Say hi to Lalise and Catherine.
Hello, honest to meet you.
I'm so sorry, honey, that is such a betrayal like ew that makes me so I can't even imagine how painful that must be for you.
Yeah. I was very, very shocked, and he gave me no warning signs at all, Like I never went through his phone, like he never gave me any suspicion, So I was pretty shocked. He also gave me a fake Instagram account that said it was her and it wasn't her. So I actually ended up finding out who actually was. And they've been seeing each other for a couple of months now, so yeah, I was. I was pretty shocked, to be honest.
And so what did he do when you confronted him?
Oh?
He gasled me quite a bit. I was like, who is this girl? And he said that it was his ex from six years ago and he randomly ran into her at Harrison Hot Springs together. So I did some more and he was like, I knew that you would do this. I know that you would do this, and it was the U you used that he got me like, I knew that you would go to Instagram and find the cell blah blah blah. I'm like it makes no
fucking sense, Like who is she? Just fucking tell me who she is, you know, And I was just shocked.
Yeah. No, that's traumatizing to have somebody lie to you on that kind of level.
Yeah, it's deep betrayal.
Are you in therapy? No?
And I actually I listened to your podcast all the time. I know you love therapy. I have never been to therapy.
You need to go, I know you need to go. Because like, that's a terrible thing to have happened to you. That's a major betrayal of trust, and in order to work through that in a healthy, really adult way so that you get through it sooner and you're not holding onto resentment three or four years down the line. You need somebody, like a really solid professional to talk you through this on a regular, consistent level, because nobody deserves
to be treated like that, including yourself. Obviously, you know that because you broke up with him. So that's the first best news, is that you broke up with him and that you have enough strong enough sense of yourself to know that that's not acceptable to you. So great for doing that. Good for you. It's hard to break up with somebody when you love them, but like you stood up for yourself and you respect yourself, so like you're already on your road to recovery just by that action. Yeah.
No, I ripped up his orchid. He got me. I put all his love letters and I put her on a box of my patio, and so get your shit.
So good.
I'm doing a lot better. I'm in school now to be a teacher, so I'm just focusing on that and I'm really, I'm getting back into running and stuff, so I'm doing a lot better, but I do think I should probably go to therapy here, right.
Yeah, because you also need to restore trust in yourself, and betray is hard in that you think that you should have seen something or known something that was being held from you. So you need to primarily restore your own faith and your intuition and your sense. And then I heard you also say it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And so as you heal, part of it is to disconnect from him energetically and to stop trying to figure it out or justify it
or wonder what you missed. And it takes a lot of self control to interrupt that. But you're not going to figure it out. It doesn't make any sense, No.
It doesn't. It's not your problem. Really, anybody that duplicitous isn't your problem. Like that's he's a liar, You excited him from your life, and like it doesn't matter, and you picturing him with that girl also doesn't matter. Who gives a shit? Thank god you're not fucking with him, thank god. Yes, Like what she did you a fucking huge solid, So reframe the way you're looking at that divine intervention. Yeah.
I even messaged her on Instagram and I said, the girl a girl, can you just tell me?
And she just blocked me.
So I'm like, you have them, honey, he's yours. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean you know what they say if you wind up with the guy you were like having an affair with, you were just creating a job opportunity.
So you know, I think that you are like a great example of somebody getting through a relationship. I mean, listen, you still should go to therapy, absolutely, but you seem very solid and like this is good for women to be hearing that you're already through the thick of it in a short amount of time and that you are identifying all of this kind of self awareness.
Yeah. No, I let myself cry for a couple of days and then I was like through this, Like I'm getting back on my shit. I wrote into you, I talked to my mom, I talked to my friends, like I have a really good circle.
So it just it sucked, you know, Yeah, No, it does suck, and like, like, listen, that sucked, and hopefully that will never happen to you again.
So I won't hopefully I'm not going Yeah, I was just confused how I didn't see it.
But that doesn't matter. You can't see things when you're in them. It. Don't self flagulate or blame yourself for not identifying a situation as it was like. It may not have been that way the whole time. It may have been that you know, it may have developed like it doesn't matter either. That doesn't matter either. All you have to know is moving forward, like what you're willing
to tolerate and what you aren't. And you already said that to the world by breaking up with him, which is again a strong move, and your headed already in the right direction.
Yeah, and don't go forward defended, So do whatever you can to heal that so that you can go through life heart open.
Yes, yeah, no, you're right. I'm just said of hitting this summer to me and only me and all of my goals and what I want to do.
So I love it. Okay, Well, take care. Thank you so much for calling it, and best of luck to you. We're sending you total good vibes.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thanks Emily, Bye, Emily Bye. That I mean that goes right back to what we were talking about before with right now she's in the anger part and she's in the like fuck that guy whatever. Like that's where she's at right now, and you know, getting into therapy to get past that a little bit and into the hurt processing the heart like that will help her not carry it with her. Yes, well, should we jump to another caller?
Yeah?
Our next caller is Amy.
She is thirty four.
Dear Chelsea, first of all, I adore you both. I'm writing in because I probably need a swift kick in the rear. I'm a former high school teacher who left the profession after ten years, feeling completely beaten down by the demands of the overall system of what we like to call public education.
God, I don't fucking blame you. What a joke.
I have since focused on my two young children, who are four and twenty two months. I love being a stay at home mom, but eventually, sooner rather than later, I would love.
To go back to work.
One career path I can't seem to get out of my head is to be a personal trainer, more specifically a coach at Orange Theory Fitness. I've been attending this gym for about eight years. I have almost nine hundred classes to my name. The problem is I don't have the body type you envision when you imagine a personal trainer.
I'm short and chubby, but I'm in great shape. I'm afraid Jim's won't hire me over this fact, as well as clients not taking me seriously or believing I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm in a slightly bigger body. What do you ladies think? What a slightly larger bodied person make you not want to take workout advice from them? Or would it be refreshing to see a different body type in the gym? Any advice or
opinions are appreciated. You both are doing amazing things and inspire me Weekly Amy thirty four Nevada.
Hi, Amy, Hi, Hi, how are you?
I'm amazing, couldn't be better? How are you? Guys?
This is our special guest at Leise loan In today.
Yay, so nice to see to meet you.
Thank you well.
Have you actually applied or are you still just contemplating this?
I'm so contemplating. I'm still in this kind of awkward place in my life where I'm trying to embrace the stay at home mom life a little bit, but it's already starting to get to me one year in. So I'm thinking of avenues to you venture down and I was thinking, what do I enjoy doing?
And I really enjoy working out.
I'm kind of the silly one in my friend group, and you know, the coaches at my gym are really upbeat and fun and they like really get you into your workout.
And I was like, I could do this. You know, I was a teacher for ten years.
I'm really good at being able to delegate my attention and everything like that. So I was thinking, like, this might be something I could really do. But I'm worried about how I look. People might not take me seriously just because I'm not in the best shape, you know when you just look at me.
But I'm in the best shape for myself. But you know, some people are.
Really judgmental, and I don't know if I kind of want to get an outsider's opinion, just if they think that that would be an issue I would come across.
Basically, I think you have to go for it. I think that that whole scene. I think the way that we equate health with an exterior representation is so profoundly and deeply flawed. Some of the least healthy people I know are walking time moms. And I think we're at
the beginning of this culturally. So I'm not going to say that it's going to be easy, but body diversity and different experiences of health have got to be present in places where we work on ourselves and work on our bodies and think about a lot more women look like you than they look like you know, a tiny little spin instructor at that point, Yeah.
I think there's a huge opportunity for you to attract people who are intimidated by a perfectly fit trainer. A lot of people that turns them off because they feel like they're being judged by their trainer. So you have a whole group of women, especially moms, who probably feel that way and feel intimidated, so they can find somebody that looks a little bit more like them. It's they're going to be a little bit more I guess, you know, feel more comfortable I would say working out. I would
think that would apply to a lot of people. Yeah, there's a group of people that want their trained to look a certain way. Then there's a group of people that want to feel comfortable working out with somebody that makes them feel good about themselves.
Yes, a thousand percent.
Yeah, that's what I was banking on too.
I was like, you know, if I saw someone like me when I started out my journey with working out about eight nine years ago, I think I wouldn't have been as intivity. I kept putting it off. You know, I don't want to go to this gym, you know, it looks scary. But then I finally went and it was fun. But you know, maybe if I did walk in and see someone that looked more like myself, maybe I would have been more inclined to start sooner.
That's a really good point.
Yeah, And I think that's also how you sell it to someone when you're in a job interviews. It's like, when I walked in here, I wanted to see somebody who looked like me, like not just like a size double zero. I wanted to see somebody who's like an average size person.
Without apologizing about your size. And you can advocate for what they They may have their guardrails up about what they deem as somebody that can teach there. But I also wouldn't even limit yourself to orange theory Like this is great marketing. I could already see like you marketing to women in your neighborhood and moms, Like, do other moms want to work out without being judged by everybody in the gym? Do you guys want to and figure out fun ways to do that around the neighborhood walking
around or going to a park and meeting up. So it's not so that there's a fun vibe and there's kind of movement in the movement, not you know, literally and physically, like you're actually changing it up and offering different places to go or different activities. I think you could just not limit yourself to only thinking you can just fit yourself into somebody others operation and potentially create your own business.
Have you.
Yeah, not that everyone needs to be a digital influencer, but I also wonder if you started making some content just for your friends and family. I think you would get a lot of positive reinforcement. It might be what you need confidence wise to see the market for this and move into it. You don't have to keep doing it or build a profile, but yeah, I think you get a lot of feedback.
That's a really good idea. I didn't even think about.
Thank you, and I love what Chelsea said too. When my mom was like in her fifties, she and several of her friends started working out with a gal who was about your age. She'd built like a whole gym in her basement, which like depending on your weather situation where you live, you know, basement outside whatever. But like that was where they love to go because it was like a normal person with great equipment, and they would go and have a great time and chat with the
other ladies. And it wasn't like this like gem gem gem experience.
And where our culture is awash with unattainable bodies and if that's what people need in order to feel inspired, they have a plethora of opportunities to feel bad about themselves. And no, but I think it would be revolutionary to disrupt that narrative and to get comfortable. For people to see someone who's healthy, strong and has a body that's attainable and equivalent is really powerful.
And I think exactly picking off off of what at least said earlier, make that part of your narrative too, Like how we define health has been misinterpreted for eons, and actually healthy and strong and fit are the most important things to be. It's not about being a size zero or a size two, especially not for everybody. Nobody. People aren't naturally like that, and you know, are forcing themselves. There are people that are naturally like that, good for them,
but that's not natural for most people. So I think you have a huge opportunity here too, So get get going, get working.
Yeah.
And I also like how when you had Ben Bruno and he talked more about how women should be doing more like weight training, how we're always we go straight for the cardio, and.
I was thinking, like, because that's.
Where I found my passion. I used to hate lifting weights, and now it's like I look forward to it. Can I beat my personal record and things like that, And I want to get people excited like that, and women excited about that, because I think there's a misinterpretation of you know, lifting weights for women too. They don't want to look too bulky or whatever. And I'm like, that's not a thing like that, It's not a thing.
Yeah.
I also this just kind of keeps popping into my mind too. You may want to talk to a therapist or somebody as well, just to see if there's somebody dys morphias stuff going on, because if you're limiting yourself so much like having this question about like am I good enough to do this? Am I the right side to do this? There might be just some extra like body stuff that you need to work out with a therapist.
Yeah, I grew up with an almond mom.
If you guys know, so, I try to an almond joy mom. So I have the opposite set of problems.
You got a trademark that Chelsea. That's great almond joy.
I see a new commercial.
Yeah, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.
Absolutely, I've all yeah, this was all great advice if I never thought of so, I just I feel inspired.
Thank you, I really awesome.
Great, Well, job is here, problem solved. Everybody can go home now.
I will keep you updated on my future endeavors.
Okay, let us know the name of your jim when you start it.
Your mantra is think Bigger, Think bigger.
I gotta pick up a gym name with that has nugget incorporated into it somehow, like you know, nugget.
Nobody wants to work out with a nugget. But you could call that think bigger too. That's a good gym name. Think bigger.
Bigger is a great name. We are like you have three CM right now doing your marketing plan.
Love it, love it. Thank you. I appreciate your time, I really do. Thank you.
Oh thanks for calling in my pleasure?
Thank you?
Why this is so fun?
Anything we want to expound on?
I ask her a question?
Oh yes, oh yes, would you like to ask me a question? At least? I'm so sorry, how rude of me.
Well, we can take a quick break and we'll be back with more Alice and Chelsea.
And we're back.
We're back, Alisa.
Did you have a question for Chelsea?
I sure do. Thanks for asking. Catherine. You have a fearlessness about you, and I'm assuming you've always been a brave person, but you are someone who says it anyway, right, you see something, you say something. Do you ever feel scared and what do you do in those.
Moments scared of saying something, just being.
Who you are in the world.
Oh, I have fears. But everyone always asks me this question, and I take it as a compliment that people think I'm so fearless. I think I'm not really sure. I haven't digested it fully because I don't feel fearless. I definitely feel brave, but I have lots of fears, and I make it my business to kind of work push through like go you can do it, like every time you get over a fear, the level of the confidence that you feel, and the I think self security is
the biggest thing that I have. Like, I know I can depend on myself. I know I'm not going to let anything get too carried away, not for anybody else and not for myself, and that if someone asks me to do something, I have complete confidence in my competence. You know, as long as it doesn't involve technology, like anything emotional, any sort of draatic thing, Like I can help somebody and I can actually deal with it myself. But I think it's from stepping through fear over and
over and over again. I think there's so many different nuances of fear and how that plays out in your life. You know, you can be fear full, you can live in fear, or you can just have a fear of certain things. You know, it depends how and do you let it run you? And no, I do not let it run me.
Yeah, And how do you interrupt it in that moment or do you just feel it or do you do you have a practice?
Yeah, I mean I'm very into like meditation. For the past like five years, I've been really practicing meditation. And this isn't fear based necessary, Yes, it is fear based. This is a good example. Then last week I thought I got some bad news about something. I just looked at it and thought, oh, that's not good, Like I was expecting more from this or a better outcome from that. And then I had a phone call and I and that was based on my fear of not being good
enough at delivering something. Right, Like, I was like, wait, I thought I did a better job at that. They should have gotten more for that, whatever the net result of it is, right, And I was like, huh, maybe I'm not doing a good enough job. And then I had a phone call assessing the information we got, and it turns out I did a fucking great job, right.
It turns everything was great. We did everything we wanted we set out to do, and it worked in many ways, multiple levels that I hadn't even seen yet until everyone got together told me. But I chose to go down the negative route for some reason. And that's fear based. That's because you think you're not good enough, you're not whatever. And I remember getting off that call and sitting with myself for about twenty minutes and saying, next time you do that, you need to recognize that A you don't
have all the information. B where is this coming from?
Yeah?
Why do you care so much about this specific outcome? Unless it's based on fear and that needs to be identified in the moment, and then it's easier to deal with. I think. Yeah, anyway, do we have time for one more question from a caller too? Unless at least do you have any more questions?
So many?
Well?
Yeah, I just have one more email from Nicole. She is in her forties. Dear Chelsea, I would love your opinion on a recent dilemma with our thirteen year old daughter. She and her friends are having a costume party and are dressing in similar themes. Her costume idea was super cute. She was going to be the Queen of hearts. However, when she showed me her inspiration or esthetic board, I was taken aback. We're talking corset, platform heels, miniskirt, thigh
high hose. To give you a little backstory of my daughter, she's very independent, self motivated, and an incredibly smart eighth grader. She prides herself in making straight a's even though I think she's too intense about it. And she's a terrific performer who's done musical theater since she was seven. She started her period in sixth grade and her body changed almost overnight. She has big boobs, just like her mama.
I have been very intentional about not body shaving my daughter. However, when she tried on the corset she bought, I was at a loss. I told her I thought it was inappropriate for her age, and she freaked out. She even said she wanted to dress slutty for the costume party and knows it's a cliche but doesn't care. While I appreciate her honesty and confidence, I just don't know how to tell her she shouldn't dress this way without making her feel ashamed of her body. Am I in the
wrong here? How do I help her stay age appropriate and still love her body? Thanks Chelsea Nicole, Well.
At least I know you don't have any daughters, but you're the only parent here, so I have to let you go first.
Okay, I have a lot of feelings about this. Okay, So Peggy Ornstein, he's an amazing journalist. She was telling me a story about talking to a boy. She writes a lot about kids and sexuality, and he was talking about his girlfriend and he said she's sexy but not sexual. And I thought that that distinction was so critical and key, because I think with a lot of kids, girls specifically, they are wanting to be sexy and they are not yet really sexual. They don't have a full sense of
their own sexual power. I don't know, maybe they've all maybe they're far more advanced than I was at that age, but I worry a lot about the performance of sexuality for an audience and the objectification when you don't even know yet what it is. And then you know. I know that we're in a time where which I respect not slept shaming girls or talking about their bodies body
shaming them, But culturally we are not there. We still live in a culture that is incredibly patriarchal, where of one thousand sexual assault cases, only twenty five ever progressed to trial. It is not safe for girls. You are expected to be the babysitter of rapacious male desire. Whatever happens to you is your fault. This is the culture that we live in. And so I think not acknowledging that and pretending that it's all fair for girls is not is a gross to service. So it's not about
shaming her about her body. It's about making sure that she can keep her self safe. And I recognize that no girl should be responsible for keeping herself safe and that it's fucked up, but unfortunately that's where we are.
I think you said that so beautifully. There's also I know, Chelsea, you can speak to this too, there's also a shitty thing that happens when you have bigger boobs of like you can put on the same exact dress as your friend next to you with small boobs, and like you look quote unquote sluttie. You look like you're trying to be more sexual than your meaning to be because your breasts are larger. Like that's definitely an experience I've had.
For sure, I felt that way too, But I also want to counter argue, like I get all those things, and I understand you're saying. Everything you're saying is true, But I also think at eighth grade, a girl who has shown responsibility and shown good judgment should be given the right to make these kinds of decisions on her own and then see where that lands, Like see she's going to school, you know, like hopefully that's a safe place for her to try to exercise her freedom and
the way she wants to dress. And maybe she'll come back from that and be like, oh, I don't want to I don't like I don't like that kind of attention. Yeah, or I don't like the way people are looking at me, and maybe she won't. Maybe she'll come back and go I liked that. I liked that a lot. But again, you can't control her experience with that, like at a certain age, especially the way girls dress now, they show everything at a young age, you know that the things
that they're exposed to. And I agree with especially what you're talking about regarding sexuality and sexy because I do
think girls are more innocent these days. They're exposed to more on the internet, yet they have less experience in person, which is I guess you know this has been a hot topic of conversation with boys and girls, adolescents and everything in between, and nine binary children as well, Like you want your own agency, You want your kid to be able to make decisions and understand what those decisions lead to, especially something that I understand why you're asking,
but overall, this seems pretty innoc to me. I don't think it's a major big deal. You know, it's not like she's sexually active all of a sudden and you don't know how to handle that, because that's something that could also happen in the eighth grade. We're talking here just about an outfit, and it might be worth the experience of her wearing that to understand if she wants to wear something like that again.
Yeah.
Now, my sister calls that the natural consequences. She talks about this with her kids a lot who are now teenagers, Like my niece Lucy, she wanted to wear high heels to school, and my sister was like, you know, the natural consequence to that are you can, but your feet are gonna hurt at.
The end of the day.
And of course it came home with like terrible feeling feet and blisters and all this stuff, and it's like, that's the natural consequences. But yeah, letting her go to school and see how she likes that attention, Yeah.
I think so. I think I mean it's nice to give people some responsibility also instead of parenting them at that age in that way, I think it's a good like, that's a good self esteem booster to kind of be have your own you make your own decisions on certain fronts, to see how you make them, Yeah, and practice making them.
Yeah. I think that's all fair And I don't want to be sound so puritanical. I just like any girl we can save from.
Sexual predatory behavior, toy behavior. Yeah, but can we save anyone from that? You know what I mean? Like, can you really save somebody from that?
I don't know, I know, I think I think it's kind of both of these answers. It comes down to like is it a safe sandbox to be playing in? Like is she going to a safe place? Or is she like going out into the city? Like not great?
You know?
Okay, guys, this is your opportunity. The book is called On Our Best Behavior, the Seven Deadly Sins, and The Price Women Pay to Be Good. It's written by Elise Lonan. Please order your books or go to your independent bookstores and buy a copy of this book. It is very important reading. Elise. Thank you so much for being here too.
So fun.
It's so nice to talk to real people right and give advice. I love it. I love it. Thanks guys, We'll see you next week, Bye bye, bye bye.
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com