Moonwalking Away with Jameela Jamil

And those numbers aren't how many awards they want, how many things they've achieved, how much money they've even learned, if that's something that's an important metric is definitely one that we consider important in men. It was how much they weigh on a weighing scale in kilograms or pounds. And I just couldn't believe that in twenty years after I first developed neating disorder, that is still we are still confirming my greatest fear that a number on a

scale determines my worth in society. So one day I was piste off and I wrote, you know what, I fucking weigh my orgasms, my relationship with my boyfriend, my social justice work, my fine sure independence, my social dependence, the eating disorder I've overcome. I weigh the some of my mother fucking parts. I just tweeted it out at a very small following on the Internet, and for some reason it just resonated and within three days I had ten thou responses from women all over the world telling

me what they weigh in those same metrics. So I started an Instagram account. I thought it would be like the ice Bucket Challenge, it would just be a short phase. But now we are three years later. We have almost one and a half million followers on Instagram. We have a podcast, and we have three bills that we're trying to get emotion I just spoke at the Supreme Court regarding looking after the mental health of young people when

it comes to body image and diet culture. But also it's now turned into a social justice based like a starting point for people. I think a lot of people want to get involved in social justice, especially in the last year and a half, and they don't know where to start, and it's not super welcoming space. You know, even amongst the left, amongst liberals, there's that kind of common saying about us that we're looking for We're looking for traitors and not converts. And I do feel as

though that's how social media really feels. That it's not a safe space to do your learning, to admit that you don't have all of the answers, and I think that's really sad because it devalues progress. So I decided to turn my way into a space where wherever the funk you're at in your knowledge, we don't care. We're not here to judge you. We're just so excited that

you want to learn. And I'm ignorant as I don't know buck about ship and so I'm bringing on these experts of all different ages and backgrounds to educate me, and then you learn with me. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do. I'm just here to be the kind of mediator or you know you're I would just like to be a part of your starting point because I've got so much growth to do, and I don't believe in doing that stuff privately and presenting this

image of being this kind of deity. I believe in showing your mistakes and showing your vulnerability and being open that learning is cool and something that we should actively encourage each other to do until the day that we die. So I weigh as a it's a community for learning about how to be, you know, how to show up better for each other. Well, I just climaxed from all that. So impressive, so impressive, and just so great. I fucking love it. I love it all. I love it all.

And the Instagram handle for I way is just I way. It's a I underscore w E I g H. And the podcast is one of my favorite things I've ever been a part of. I've learned so much. I would love you to come onto the podcast sometimes, and are you kidding? Any time? Any time? I'd be happy to Okay, great, well, then perfect, This is the perfect time to get started. First of all, I want to talk to you about how we met. We have a lot in comments, so I was excited to find out that we're represented by

the same publicist. So I reached out to you right away because I know you came up to me somewhere and introduced yourself once at some event. I don't remember. Do you remember where it was? I have no idea somewhere, but I'm a big fan of telling women when I love them, and I think it's because of how much

ship we do here. It's not to say that you don't have many millions of people who tell you that they love you, but women tend to get a lot of ships, sometimes from each other, but just generally from the mass public. And so I take it upon myself that when I adore someone, I just want to go and tell them. I remember it was it was Netflix just for laughs or something like that. Maybe yeah, special that we did where they made us dance in between one line of jokes and I wanted to jump off

the balcony. I don't think I would have done. I don't think that was where we met, because I don't think I did Netflix as a joke. I wouldn't have agreed to dance anywhere on television because I have no rhythm. It was something where it was like a throwback of a sixt show. Jay Leno was there and Tiffany Haddish and Billy Crystal and Margaret Show. Oh. It was like it was like a telethon. It was a charity charity telethon, like throw back and that makes sense out of like

cardboard boxes and tell one liners. It was the It was the oddest experience of my life. Right, It's so funny. All of those things just blend together at a certain point, aren't they. You just don't even know where you were, what event it was. It's just all It's also stupid. But anyway, I love your Instagram, I love your messaging.

I love everything you say about women and respecting yourself and being positive and calling people out when are negative towards women, which is such a toxic culture, which is the very reason we are in this situation that we are in in a global way but also in a more micro United States fucked up way, where men are resisting the moment we're in because they don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the situation, and they don't realize

that their role in this situation is prolonging the conversation instead of shortening it. You know, what could have been a conversation has turned into a culture war because men can't collectively say wow, they want to take it so personally. It's like, listen, we're not talking about you specifically, every single time, we're talking about men as a collective have made a lot of bad mistakes, and you are a product of a structure that was created long before you

were here, but that you're still benefiting from. And now we have to change everyone's kind of you know, you have to dismantle your understanding of what societal structure and falsehoods are and start appreciating and respecting the fact that women, among many other marginalized groups have been subjugated since the beginning of time for the benefit of white men, and

so the treatment of women has to change. And I get so frustrated when I see them resisting that, when I see men asking stupid questions instead of really thinking about how they can affect change and how they can respect women more, and how that can just have a ripple effect. You know, if every man just did a little bit extra and tried, you don't even have to believe what you're saying in the beginning. Just start doing it, you know, out of respect for history and the way

things have been. And anyway, I think that I know you touch on a lot of different subjects on your Instagram, but I think we're like minded in the fact that it's a frustrating conversation to have to constantly remind people that something is inappropriate or not an official Yeah, I totally hear you. I agree with everything you just said, But also I think it's important to point out that men don't just benefit from patriarchy. Men are also very

harmed by patriarchy. Patriarchy did quite a big number on men like you. You can see it in the suicide stats. Like it's not it might be statistically benefiting them in terms of like economics and you know, social status, etcetera, in every way more so than us, But their suicide rates are just getting higher and higher and younger and younger,

and so this is harming them. They are hurting themselves, they are hurting each other, and then it's that toxicity that then spills out over onto the rest of us. And so it wouldn't just benefit us for them to start to deconstruct patriarchy and that hierarchy. It's it's it's actually going to benefit all of them. It would benefit our humanity as a whole for us to unpick this like toxic, very formulaic and constructed ideal of gender, do

you know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's all ships rise with the tide, right, you know, think of it as a zero sum game, and it's like, no, if everybody's treated a little bit better. We're all going to be a little bit better, including men themselves, and we can obviously see. You know. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and her husband, because I like to get involved in people's interpersonal relationships. And she, she was my friend, said oh, I don't think they

talk at all. And I said, are you talking to him? You know, like, are you guys talking? And she's like, we don't have that much to say to each other because the kids are, you know, have been taking up our time for the last ten years, which is a very common situation. And so I talked to him, you know, one on one, and I said, hey, you know, like you know, the kids are growing up, you guys are gonna have to get to know each other again, Like

you're gonna have to start spending time together again. You know, how do you want to do that? Like how do you want to rekindle and remember the reason you got together in the first place. And I said, do you want to maybe go to therapy with her? And he walked. I mean, I hadn't seen a male reaction to going to therapy like that in a really long time, probably because I live in l a And everybody goes to therapy,

you know, so nobody cares. But his reaction was so scary to me because he went, I'm not going to therapy. I'm not. That's it's so stupid, that's whatever. You know, they all say the same thing. And I'm like, well, have you ever been to therapy? And he's like no, And I go, well, then how do you know they're all saying the same thing, and he goes, I'm not doing that, And I just thought, Okay, obviously that's not a boulder that I'm gonna be able to push up hill.

But how sad like, how sad to be that shut down, And that's scared of what you would discover if you had to tap into your own emotions, because that's really what we're talking about here, is the fear of a man being able to be vulnerable, being able to say this was my trauma, or this is what screwed me up and and this happened to me, or my father did this to me or whatever it's. It's it is so toxic, and it breads and it's a cycle that

you're passing on to your children. And so it's so important for men to be able to live in a different way than they've been living. You know, the idea that they're in charge and they have to take care of women and that they have to prove their masculinity

over and over again is so passe. Even like if you look at some of the countries where they have the least, even the countries that tend to be the poorest a lot of the time, other countries that don't allow women to work and don't allow women equal positions. So it's like it's it's just harming men. It's so nonsense.

It's so illogical to deny one half of the world basic rights equality and then also to deny yourself the chance of being able to share all of that, to be able to share the way that you feel, share all of your thoughts, share your trauma, share your workload, share your life. I think it's incredibly depressing. I also think there's a tremendous lack of friendship between men and women that is still kind of perpetuated in today's culture.

We still don't really have much discourse around friendships to men and women. I don't think men see themselves as valuable to women outside of being lovers, outside of being foragers and so well, we've got postmates, you know what I mean. We don't fucking need men anymore for that. Like we've got doors and locks and gates, so we don't need them to protect us anymore. From a saber to fucking tiger. We are self sufficient. We can now

have babies without men. There's there's almost nothing that those of us who have the privilege of, for example, being in the West or certain Eastern countries, those of us who have our own autonomy, who are granted that autonomy, don't need them. And they don't see that there's so much value in the companionship, in the in the partnership, in the friendship, in the work relationship of of genders coming together. I think it's sad that they feel like

we must need them for them to have value. Why can't we just want them or enjoy them, or just coexist alongside them. Maybe not. And you would think it would be a celebrate. You would think men would be like, Oh, here's an independent, strong, fierce woman that's sexy and heart

and unfortunately most men are intimidated by that. Most men are intimidated by a woman that and take care of herself and say okay, instead of celebrating the fact that a person has personhood and individuality, it becomes a threat, which is also just such a bummer. And men shouldn't feel that burden. They shouldn't feel the burden that they have to take care of the world. We're here to help you take care of the world, and you know we can. We can do just as good of a job.

And we should all be working in concert, not against each other. They have an exhausting worldview, and I feel I feel very relieved. In some ways, I feel very resentful that it wasn't born a man because of how difficult it is to be a woman. But in other ways, I feel relieved that I don't have to Like I don't have to slowly grow into a nuclear bomb. You know, you don't have to murder somebody. Yeah, I don't have

all of that repressed. I'm not being told you. My boyfriend is a very sensitive musician, and he had to call out Pitchfork a couple of years ago for referring to his music as sad boy music like this is just it's such a coded, reductive term for someone who's truly just singing about his feelings and they're not all

sad songs. Some of them are about his depression, some of them are about different things that you know, he just writes about all the kind of spectrum of his feelings and immediately gets categorized just because he's not saying like terrible derogatory things about women as a sad boy, a grown man talking about his feelings explicitly, there's a sad little boy like it's very, very dangerous that I think that was two thousand and seventeen or eighteen, that

that's still the language we have around a man who's just confident in being who he really is. Also, men need to understand how attractive that is to us. So when we see men being vulnerable, when we see men, I mean, my boyfriend right now says things to me that I can't. I'm like, I'm going to write a book about everything you say to me, as a handbook for what every man should say to every woman. I told him the other day that I found cellulated on my arm. He goes, that's so sexy. Every woman who

has cellulate is so sexy. That's what makes you a woman. I'm like, oh my god, that makes me want to fuck you. You know when men say things like that, And they had to the other night. We're in New York City and I said, oh God, we gotta go get tampons. It was like two in the morning. He's like, you're not buying tampons. He goes, I'll go get them. He goes, You've been buying tampons your whole life. I never want you to buy tampons again. Thank God, I

love you. And when you come back, I'm gonna stick that damp on somewhere. God. Wait, Chelsea, can you hear that all of your listeners just collectively came at the same time. They all climax at the same time every episode, which brings us to my next subject, Jamala. What we do on this podcast is we give advice to callers on whatever subject matter is like kind of curtailed for your visit. Since you're our guest today and we know

what you're passionate about. We have people who call it and these are real people, and this is like this podcast is gives me so much pleasure because I can actually dole out advice to people who want it instead of it being unsolicited. You know, I'm gonna take a quick break, Jamale We're gonna take a quick break and we will be right back, and we are going to hear from some colors. So Catherine, our reducer, Katherine, say hello, Hello, Hi, Hi, Hi. Let's go into a couple of collars so we can

get that taken care of. Fabulous. Does that sound good? So listen, what do we have coming down the pike? Okay? This first question comes from Peter. Dear Chelsea, I'm a thirty five year old man living in Ohio with my partner of nine years. Were married. Recently, my husband lost

over sixty pounds. He's lost the weight through diet and exercise, which is great, but now it's come to the point where he never wants to go out to eat because he wants to eat the exact same meal every day, and he works out several more than two times a day. He's stopped drinking and partaking in edibles as well. I originally was fine with it, as he was doing it the healthy way, but now I'm getting bored and worried. I like to go out to eat, have margarita's, have fun.

He no longer participates unless there's exercise involved because he quote can't manage his intake not to mention. I fell in love with him not despite his big bare body, but because of it. Now he just wants to be as skinny as possible. I'm worried the diet has gone too far, and I'm concerned about his health. I have attempted to have a conversation with him about the eating habits, to which he says he's doing it in a healthy way,

and his doctor has also confirmed that for him. I love him so dearly and of course want what is best for him. I can't talk him into joining me for therapy. What do I do, Peter? Oh, God, Jamila, let's get your thoughts on that. Hi. Hi, Hi, Nice to meet Hi. Nice to meet you too. Wow. God,

that's such an interesting predicament that you're having. I mean, obviously, I don't want to pretend that I am any kind of doctor here, but I would say that from everything I know from my own personal experience and about nineteen years working in activism for the Space, it sounds like at least orthorexia developing, which is kind of like a fear of food, fear around food, and definitely disordered eating.

I think that that sounds really really complicated and tricky to watch, and then also frustrating because doctors are so fast to congratulate weight loss, regardless of how it has been achieved, or how fast it's been achieved, or whether or not that method is attainable. Doctors are so obsessively fat phobic, and they're taught to be so from medical school onwards. So it's really hard to have someone who's kind of seen as a authority in that area congratulate

or condone that behavior. And also it's not guaranteed that your partner is being fully honest with his anxiety around food. I think after such a long time together, I think you owe it to yourself and your partner to be honest with them about your concerns. Have you, I mean, you've voiced your concerns already, haven't you. Have you stressed those concerns? Yeah, as in a as nice as they can. Anyway, he's sort of avoidance attachment style, so like he doesn't

like to actually talk about issues like this. So when we're eating the same thing every single day, it's the same meal every single day, I might let's mix it up, Let's try something else, even if it's just like a variation of the type of food that we're eating. He's like, no, I know this works for me, and I know, like my doctor has told me that this is working. So it's more so I'm treading very lightly. Yeah, which is not a fun place to be for you at all.

I get it. I get it. First of all, nobody wants to eat the same thing every day, So why you have to eat the same thing every day is it doesn't really make any sense. His avoidance, though, is a big issue too. I mean, if he can't discuss it, then there is a situation, you know, Otherwise it would

be easier to have a conversation around it. I would urge you and Jamila, I'm interested to hear what you think, but I would urge you to press him on this, you know, because this is having an impact on you now. So he's not just having an impact on his own life and using his doctor as his crutch for doing everything right. Isn't enough, Like that's great that his doctor thinks that, But you're his lover, what do you think.

You know, he's obviously lost the weight he and he's obsessing about it and not participating in any of the activities that you find fun or the socializing that you find fun, which has created a chasm in your relationship, and that's not deniable because you're you're feeling this way.

So he can pretend he doesn't want to talk about it, or he can feel like he doesn't want to talk about it, but you want to talk about it, and I would impress it upon you to make that happen, you know, to make your feelings heard and your voice heard. Of course, you want to support his health, but not

at the expense of your relationship. No, And I mean it's I've never had a call in advice section where I'm actually face to face with the person writing in, So I tend to be deeply ruthless in my advice and that's harder to do to your extremely angelic face. But but fuck it, right, I have lived a very long, very hard life, and I have a pretty brutal stance on someone not being willing to investigate something that is problematic for me as someone they share the home space with.

So if someone wasn't willing to go to therapy when they are exhibiting signs of something that is definitely troubling and something that is impacting me negatively, if they're not willing to even come to therapy with me and to investigate it with an expert other than they're very enabling,

probably quite fatphobic doctor. Then I would take that as a sign that my happiness and my feeling of safety or joy in a relationship isn't a priority to them, in which case, oh fucking al the seven billion people in the world that we could be with. I frequently asked myself in relationships if I met you now, would

I ask for your number? And I know that you've been together a really long time, and this is and I'm just that you know, dickhead off the good place and not then do I know I'm not supposed to interfere with your life, but I do think that I do think that prioritizing your well being is important, and it sounds like he's certainly doing that with his own life, and he's not really making your priority. And it has

to kind of be a combination. You're not looking to interfere with him, You're not trying to make him live a shorter or unhealthier or worse life. You don't want him to feel bad about himself. But also this is an obsessive lifestyle and you're being dragged into it in every aspect, and you're being curtailed, and you're probably gonna have to go at socialize without him, So he's now

missing chunks of your life. You're not witnessing each other's lives together because of his obsession, because of what it sounds like a bit of an addiction to the eating disorder. And so I think you kind of have to put your foot down otherwise you're unfortunately enabling this behavior like it's an own goal, you know what I mean. I

think you should. I think it kind of has to be either you come to therapy, Like if you have nothing to hide, then you shouldn't be afraid of speaking to a mental health professional, because I think that's what it is with a lot of people with eating disorders, that they're afraid to get help because they're afraid of getting fat if they get better. They subconsciously know that there's something wrong and they're afraid that their biggest fear

will come true. And it's really important that your partner cares enough about you to make sure that you feel comfortable in this relationship. So I think it's a kind of either or situation. Yeah, and I believe. I believe that he cares, saying we've been together her, like you said, nine years. We're obviously coming up of the pandemic, to which was to cult because it was a lot of eating and a lot of drinking that we normally wouldn't do, so, like,

I gained a lot of weight. But in the midst of that, something shifted where all of a sudden I was the one just eating and drinking, and then he was going to the gym every single day and working out and running, and which is fine and great. Yeah, it's all which is great, and I'm glad like and he obviously feels better as you would if you worked

out every single day, multiple times a day. But it was such a sudden shift that I was like, oh, we're not doing Margarita's three times the night, which we normally wouldn't do. With the pandemic was just bury that for us. So do you feel a bit left behind? Then? Is that also part of this that you feel a bit left behind? Do you feel a bit bad about your lifestyle because he's, you know, making such an effort

with his lifestyle. Yeah, and now, yeah, I definitely feel death And it's mainly you know I've obviously talked to somebody about like my insecurities in a scenario, and that like all of a sudden, like when we got together, like I was like stick thin and he was bigger, and now it's sort of reversing. So there is a part of my insecurity and as well that I'm like, I might be pushing my feelings a little too far. Maybe it's not his fault. I don't want to enable

them either, but there's also my part. It's extremely accountable of you. I didn't realize that when I was saying that earlier. I still think that it sounds like there is an obsessive attitude towards food that needs to be remedied, and I think all people with eating disorders have to be accountable to the people they live with and chesspace with to do everything they can to come out with that. But exercise, I think is fantastic. I don't really care

how many times a day people do it. Obviously you can't have exercise addiction, but I do think it's I do think it's really great that you're investigating, that you're doing that with a therapist, your own kind of insecurity. You worried that if he becomes more attractive he would leave you or actually, weirdly that's not the case, which

normally like I would be, but I'm pretty secure. We're pretty secure in our relationship and that I don't think, you know, he's never said to me your body is changing or whatever like that, So sometimes they feel bad when I'm like, your body is changing, and obviously it's changing for the better, as was he when we got married. So I'm working on my insecurities on my own with him. I'm sort of just letting him go because he seems

to be pleased with that. I think that's a great place to come from, though, you know what I mean, Like, it's great for you to open the conversation by even admitting what your issues are, because that's not placing blame on him. It's like, hey, I'm struggling with this a little bit, and I think, you know, it's less accusatory and it's more of a couple's issue that you need

to come together with a third party for right. You know, you have your insecurities and he has his, and it would be helpful to have a third party's kind of input or opinion on all of those things. And starting with your own insecurities is a great way to kind of kind of lubricate the conversation. I think that's really important. But also I don't think you can allow the fact that you're owning up the fact that you have insecurities to make him feel like then well, then that's just

you and your issues. It's very important to remind everyone that you know, two things can be through. At the same time, you might have insecurities. You might feel like he's drifting away from your becoming I don't know, like better than you're any of these things, because he's living this, you know, societally more acceptable lifestyle than three margharita's a day. But at the same time, he also might be developing

an obsession. And so therefore, as I said at the beginning, I really I feel very very strongly about if you ask someone to at least just try speaking to a professional because something is happening, something shifting in the relationships making uncomfortable. If they're not willing to do it, then they're not being considered your feelings. So hopefully you will just take a firm line with that. And I think Chelsea's right the opening with your own ship is going

to I think soften him. Yeah, I think that's smart, and I dispake me coming on a podcast and talking about it. I generally don't talk about my insecurities with him a whole lot. That's sort of what I have a therapist for. So I think you're right. And also, you know, Jamil and I were just before you call talking about this this you know, male kind of toxicity and that the way that men are raised in this world, and to think that they're not allowed to talk to

each other about those things. And because you're two gay men, you make not think it's it's the same thing. You're both men, you were raised as men. You know, you're not women. You're not encouraged to talk about your feelings. So this is not huge opportunity for you and for him, and hopefully you guys can come out the other side

of it. But yeah, with with with nine years of history, you owe it to yourself to get a little deeper with him and to get a little bit more honest about your feelings and your insecurities and those that always opens up the door for the other person to do the same. Yeah, if you're hiding shipped from each other, it's only going to build a space between the two of you because there's a lack of integrity then in in acting as though you're fine when you're not. I

don't mean that in a judgmental way. I just think that then you're not really being your full self. You're not showing up as your full self with each other. And and I mean, I think it sounds like you love each other very much, and you have so much respect for him, and you're being very thoughtful and careful with him in this delicate situation, and so I I have faith that you're going to nail this. Okay, well, thank you, I appreciate it. Do you feel like you're

going to be able to have that conversation soon? Yeah? I do. He did read some of it, so you know, he knew the conversation I was having today. And he even lasted the house because he has today absout. He left the house to make sure like I wouldn't feel like I couldn't speak my truth or whatever. He knows the conversation could be coming. Yeah. Yeah, well this is

the perfect timing. Then you can just explain to him the conversation you had with us, and it started that way yeah, he must be kind of open if he knows you're going on a massive fucking podcast to talk about it. I reckon, you're not too far off. I think he'll do it. I think he'll try it was there to be afraid of. If there's nothing to be afraid of, then he shouldn't avoid it. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, there are lots of people that go through

really extreme eating disorder phases in their lives. You know, people have struggles, and it doesn't mean it's permanent. It doesn't mean it's forever. It's a point in your life and a space and time in your life that takes up a lot of your time and a lot of your attention. But it's you know, nothing's really that permanent.

So you know, don't be hopeless in any regard. Just be very optimistic and forthcoming and that you know, breeds were different, different sets of results than doing what you've done in the past or you know, not expressing yourself and all that. But please keep us posted and let us know what happens, because we always love feedback and I always love updates from all of our patients, even though we're not medical doctors. I like to think that I am. Even though I'm Indian, I maintain that I'm not.

She's a doctor by birth. We come out with the stuff that's going around the neck, just like straight out of the pussy, and I'm not goodbye, goodbye, thank you? Well sweet huh? I know, and it's sweet. It's you know what. When I started doing this podcast, I was like doing it in a little tongue in cheek and I thought, oh, we'll get some maybe quasi serious things, and then people start calling in with real fucking problems and real life situations. So it's really good. You give

great advice. By the way, Jamala, so you're saying a great addition to this blunt Catherine, Who do we have on deck? Okay, well, I think that's the only caller will probably do for today. I have someone else, But there are a couple of other questions that I want to make sure we get to with Jimmy La. This question is from l Dear Chelsea. I was recently on a girl's weekend and got really high on a edible,

higher than I've ever been. We were with a few people i'd never met, one of them being a lesbian couple, and I started to get attracted to this one girl. I've never questioned my sexuality before when it hit me like a ton of bricks. I've never been attracted to a guy like this. With them, I've always just thought, oh, they'll do I guess I just figured i'd never found the right one. Now I can't stop thinking that I might be gay, and I'm kind of freaking out about it.

What do I do? Well, first, you should read Glenn and Doyle's book Untamed, and then you could read Love Warrior also, which that was the prelude to Untamed. But I think it's very very common to fall in love with people, not to fall in love with sexes, and so another construct of society that we are subject to and products of, but is not the way that it

necessarily is. And I think when you have a strong, strong, kind of electrical reaction to somebody, you should always pay attention to that because chemistry is so important between people, whether it's a love interest or not. You know, when you have a vibe with somebody, it's undeniable and you should, you know, and it doesn't matter whether you're gay or whether you're straight. We live in one you know, and I know some states are worse than others. But we're

moving towards the future. So just be accepting of your feelings first of all, and don't ever try and push those away, because that is the first thing that people do that is wrong. You should always just accept what you're feeling, let it come up, and sit around and think about it for as long as you want. But

but that feeling is there for a reason. Women's intuition is everything, and I can't stress enough how we forget how strong our intuition is, and when we don't act on it, we're not serving our own best interests or the interests of others. We're just kind of putting like a pin in something that is never going to go away. So I would encourage you to explore that further. For sure. Explore your relationship with that woman you know, or create

a friendship, or reach out to that person. Did she say in the letter if she had reached out yet or she just felt that strong. Yeah, I would encourage you to explore that because that's what life is about,

is about seizing opportunities and listening to your feelings. And that's something that we're talking about a lot that I think women have an advantage over men with We do listen to our feelings, but sometimes we learn that we over analyze the situation or we think we have to define a situation, and it's not necessarily the case for anything in life to have to define it with such structure. Jimmiela, what are your thoughts on this? I think she should hold it in obviously all of the things that I

write on my Instagram every day. Just bottle it up. Never tell a soul. No. I agree with everything you said. I have no further questions. You're on a you know, like that. Everything you said, it's exactly how I feel, and I think that well. I hope that the next generation have more of an understanding of fluidity regarding gender or sexuality or many of these different things, and so

learn from the kids. Listen to the kids. Definitely read Untamed and start, you know, filling your timeline with more queer people so you can see that it's not this terrible thing that involved being always ostracized and shunned and living a terrible heathen lifestyle. It's just a very normal, happy life. It's a much happier life than when you're

denying yourself your basic instincts. Yeah, I would say, read untamed, and then you're not going to have any questions left because that is the definition of somebody doing the thing that she thought she could never do. How exciting though, How exciting to find that out about yourself at any age better late than never, Jesus. And how exciting to have that charge of meeting somebody and having those feelings.

That's exciting too. I Mean, people go through their whole lives and say they don't feel that, So don't ever ignore that kind of fire, you know. All Right, Well, thank you for writing in and definitely keep up posted. Yes, after you express your interest to said potential love interests, please let us know how that goes and what happens. We need all the details, please. Well, I've got one more question for the two of you. This comes from

Patty Dear Chelsea. Here's my question, based solely on vanity. I just turned forty and I'm slowly watching myself adopt my mother's double chin slash turkey neck. I absolutely swoon over how beautiful your skin is and how great you always look. I'm hoping you have a skincare routine that doesn't cost a fortune and some sort of advice to help slow the seemingly inevitable turkey neck. I'm a yoga teacher and a ski instructor. I take care of my body.

I eat healthy, drink my water, and other than my neck, I am very happy with the way my body looks. Help Patty, but made me really sad. Let me just Jamala had her head in her hands when she was listening to this because it was upsetting to her. And why don't you, why don't you start, Jamala, because this is your area, this is this is definitely your area

of expertise. I mean, this is just daylight robbery. This is a woman who has had her gratitude for life somewhat stolen from her, like she's had her self love stolen from herself worth compromised. This is so unfair. This is such she's such a victim of patriarchy. I mean this with no judgment of her. The fact that women have been taught to be afraid of time and gravity something that we reddish and men, you know, we shoot men on the cover of magazines Dropped Berlin. We shoot

every single tiny crevice in HD, you know. And well, first of all, what about that g Q cover with what's his face, Jonah Hill? I mean, yeah, look at they made Jonah, what about that cover? Men are congratulated just for deciding that they're sexy without if you're having to be sexy, he is quite sexy. But yeah, like it's the gray hair, the salt and pepper, Like we

don't use these words for women. It's so insane, Like when I was looking at the film for Ocean Eights, for Ocean Oceans eight, you know, all of the promo came out, all of their covers came out, and they were photoshoped to the point where they all look like

fucking emojis. You know it just so I didn't recognize any of these women who I grew up with, who are only like maybe five or ten years older than me, and they look younger than me, and and and we as in like us, public figures are kind of weaponized against women, like the one who just called in to think that all of us. I mean, look, first of all, what we think a fourty year old should or shouldn't look like is dictated to by media. Who owns media, men,

they own the magazine. Even though there's a woman editors answering to a man the studios owned by men, film and music labels owned by men, everything, all of the social media platforms owned by men, most of the products sold to women owned by men. Men are creating this falsified standard of beauty and societal expectations that women are

just being adhered to. We're eighty percent of the market, we're eighty percent of consumers, and so the only to make sure people are going to buy things, the most like fullproof way to make sure that people are going to consume is if they feel bad about themselves, as if they feel depressed. The more sad you are, the more empty you feel, the more likely you are to go and buy something that is going to fill that emptiness.

And so that's why we are so targeted and manipulated to hate ourselves, spend every single day of every single minute of our lives hating ourselves and being distracted thinking about things like reversing time and gravity, which is impucking possible unless you are Kiano Reeves. Aside from him, it's impossible.

And so we're being distracted and our eyes being taken off the ball of our happiness, our mental health or safety, our well being, our entrepreneurship, It doesn't like it doesn't even have to do business wise, are just our growth is being stunted by these pressures and these expectations that were created in a lab by a bunch of insecure ass whole men. On top of that, I also find it upsetting that people in privilege are used as the like with the most amount of privilege possible, are used

as the standard of what everyone should look like. When we are given so much help, so much hair makeup, so the like a better quality of food, fucking facials, and and easier lifestyle and a lack of financial stress. We're not running around after four children as single mothers, like working five jobs, not having time to even sucking sleep, never mind preen ourselves the way that public figures do

this frustrates me from every single angle. And I wish I could just grab this woman, especially after the last year and a half where we've realized how short life is and what privilege it is to grow older and to show signs of the life that you have been so lucky to continue to live when so many people have died so young, and just infuse her with gratitude and self love and not this hysteria around the most the most natural and inevitable thing on earth, something that

we love in men. Sorry, amen, Amen, Jamila Amen. I think yeah, that is a great way to put it. You know, I don't think you should compare yourselves to us as your as your your standard bearer, because I even struggle with stuff to do because with lasers and stuff and injections, I used to do all that stuff and I really try not to do any of it anymore because it is a negative, negative spin cycle. Like it is, it's cyclical, and once you get on the ramp,

it is very hard to get off of it. So if you could move into acceptance and understand that your wrinkles and that things that you don't like about yourself are a part of who you are and a part of your experience and aging. And I know that doesn't sound sexy or attractive, but it adds to your soul and it adds to your self esteem, because there's nothing hotter than having self confidence, and self confidence is something

that comes from within. You don't get that from changing the way that you look, because if you change something about your neck, you're going to find something else you don't like either. And so I would just really encourage you to move into acceptance and know that that is a sign of you having a good, healthy, full life. You sound like you have your ship together, So have it together all the way around. Agreed, agreed, so agreed, Such a shame and so young, fultyish, she ful ty,

so young with like four years older than me. And I would also just want to say, like, you don't have like I'm forty six. I don't like my neck either. Guess what I forgot about it a long time ago. You know what I mean, Like, I'm not gonna do anything about it. I I it doesn't matter to me that much. And maybe you're gonna say, oh, well, your neck is beautiful. Yeah. I get a lot of ship. I get a lot of facials, I get a lot of lasers. I get all of that stuff done, and

they are expensive, unfortunately. But I also try to make sure that I'm not ever setting an unreal example. You know, I'm not going to get a facelift. I'm not gonna get plastic surgery. I'm just not doing that. Ship. So you know, there are things about me that I do

not like and that I just say fuck it. That's part of who you are and it's sexier to embrace it and and and forget about it because you fixate on things and then that you don't you know, And it's up to you to kind of have that mental game with yourself where you're a little bit more above it. And I think what separates people from people with lack of confidence from people with more confidence, it's just it's just a mental game. It's just like athletes being better

than other athletes. You can rise above all of that and you can have your self confidence that we all have. We all have a reservoir of it. It's just whether or not you're able to tap into it. And I'm telling you that you're capable enough to tap into it. It's insane that with everything else that we're supposed to fear, you know, rape, murder, being anywhere on our own, whatsoever, everything males wearing flip flops, of men wearing flip flops. On top of that, we're supposed to fear elbow fat

and armpit rolls and our next. No one ever looks at our next, No one cares about our next. Our next have nothing to do with anything other than keeping our head up above our bodies. Like earlobe plasty. I feel like that was just like I knew the pandemic was coming and the world was going to end as soon as they invented earlobe plasty. The fun. Who the funk cares about our fucking airlobes. It's so it's so frustrating, it's so frustrating. We're bleaching our ur holes where I

personally refused to participate in any of it. I had my breast reduced because of back pain when I was younger, and it's not because I don't have any insecurities. I've got body dysmorphia and a fucking eating sort of twenty years I'm covered in scars from head to turb my body because of my disability. I I just cannot say.

I'm such a stubborn bitch that I know that there are a small group of men profiting from myself hatred, and so every time I go and pay them for the hatred that they infused me with, I would feel like I'm betraying myself. It's not like a it's not I'm not on a pedestal, you know here, or like just sitting here like on my soapbox, fucking ranting everyone. I'm just saying that someone is profiting from every moment that you spend shipping on the way that you look,

or obsessing over the way you're probably magnifying. I bet there's nothing. I bet there's no excess skin on her chin from all the way that she's talking. Sounds like all of my friends who are my age, who are all talking about these things that I cannot see when they're pointing them out to me. We have been given

like a psychosis around our appearance. And that's because of fucking, fucking, fucking fucking filtering and photoshop that has made us think that these things don't exist, and we're all supposed to look like KaiA Gerber forever. We're not supposed to look like KaiA Gerber forever or ever. And that's okay, that's good. Variety is hot. Older women are Yeah, older women are all the women that I'm attracted to or older than me. Yeah. All right, Well, I hope that settles your question. And

I hope that yeah. Yeah. I keep us posted and and let us know if you got over yourself. Can I can I just quickly add one thing as well, Chelsea, tell me if you agree with this, can we suggest just to try this for anyone out there. This is what I did when when I hit my peak of self hatred, I decided to try an experiment of taking all the money that I wanted to spend on things that we're going to, you know, quote unquote fix my appearance, and I put it in an actual piggy bank and

put that money towards therapy instead. I decided to fix the inside rather than try to fix my outside for everyone else. I'm not a motherfucking billboard for everyone else to appreciate. I'm a human being. I deserve a good human experience on this earth. Sorry to interrupt, Oh no, I appreciate the interruption. And on that note, we are going to take a quick break so you can hear and add and then we'll be right back. Jamila, do you have a question for me. That's a new thing

we're doing. We're having asked me a surprise question. You struck me a really long time ago, Like I was back in England when I first became aware of you years and years ago, and you were just so different to everyone else on the television. It felt like you were not dictated by whether or not people approved of you, and I was wondering if that's something that you really genuinely feel on the inside, like an indifference to other people's opinions of how you're supposed to live, And if so,

where does that come from. Yeah, I tend to give off the vibe that I don't have high regard for other people's opinions of me. And I would have to say at that point in my life, when I was doing Chelsea Lately, I did not have regard for what people thought of me. That didn't occur to me. I just thought, I'm having a great time, Let's look at the people around me. I was very present in what

I was doing. I definitely did go through about of insecurity and self consciousness later on, probably or five six years ago. I think when I when I left Netflix and I left my TV shows, and that was had been my identity for so long, and the regard that people had for me felt like it was shifting, when really it was my regard for myself because I didn't have the things that defined me in that way. You know, I'm not i'm not married, I don't have a family.

And that was when I decided to go into therapy, when I started to feel and to care what other people how they perceived me. Was when I knew I had lost the plot a little bit. You know, I just thought, wait, wait, wait, this isn't who you are, This isn't you're not this isn't fierce, this isn't strong, this is actually I felt very weak in a way, which isn't okay feeling to have as long as your solution oriented about it. You know, I didn't want to

live in that weakness or that insecurity. It felt foreign to me and I didn't like feeling that way. I didn't like thinking about what people thought about me. So it was a lot of work to get back to what I thought about myself, because that's really what it comes down to, is how how do you revere yourself? Right?

You know? And do you revere yourself? And I got back to that place, you know, what other people think of me, it can bother me, but it's not where I live, and I don't I don't spend a lot of time scrolling through comments about people who don't like me. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the people that say no to me. You know, if you're pitching a show and you get an offer from one place, so many people can focus on all the people that say no, when in reality, all we all ever need

in life is one person to say yes. You just need the one Yes. You just need to have chemistry and fall in love with one person. Know, you don't have to feel that way from everybody. You don't have to have everybody love you, And it's not a realistic endeavor anyway. So I would say, yes, what you saw was real, But I'm not somebody who has never suffered from insecurity or self consciousness. You know, I have and

I didn't like that either. So I made sure to kind of dig my way out of that with therapy, which is what I did, and now I'm in a much different place. But yeah, you know, I definitely care what people think to a degree. I just don't let that be my north star. Yeah, I don't want to hurt anyone, but I couldn't really give a funk whether or not anyone likes me. I hate everyone, so like, no one has to like me, right right? It's not

a yeah. I've also I also have this new philosophy that I've been subscribing to is that I don't need someone to like me. In order for me to like them, because that used to be a barometer for me. Like if I if I didn't like someone, I found out they were a big fan, I'm like, oh, I do like them. It's like no, no, no, no, that's not how it works. You don't just like people because they like you. I decide who I fucking like and who I don't like. And just because someone doesn't like me,

does it preclude me from liking them. I like that. It's a good flo doesn't matter for me whether they like me or not. I normally don't like them, don't. Well, yeah, I think that's I think that's a common I think that's a common feeling for a lot of people. You're not very liberating. I think if we really ask ourselves, like do we like everyone? Know that? Why do we

expect everyone to like us? This ship is mutual? I think we need to exhibit more reciprocity of just like sometimes I'm talking to someone, you know, like when you're trying to be polite or you're trying and then you've realized, like you're talking to somebody and you're trying to be

polite and you're trying to engage with them. And then you're thinking, why, why the funk am I going making all this effort for someone that I'll never ever see again, just so that they can have a good experience with me? And I want to leave them with a good feeling. That's okay, but I don't wanna You know, why am I bending over backwards for a stranger? And know what I do? What? So? I learned this from a guy

at a party. When you join a conversation of a social function, which I almost never go to because I am such an introvert and hermit, But when I do find myself one of those, as soon as I clocked the conversation is not interesting, you just smile and point your fingers and then moonwalk out of the conversation, just in a quite a cheerful way, and everyone's so confused by what's happened that they don't feel bad about themselves

or rejected. So if anyone else would like to utilize that, moon walking out of a conversation is actually the perfect exit when you're bored. Yeah, but I have to learn how to moonwalk then, and I have no rhythm. I'm I have no you know who has rhythm? Though? My boyfriend he can teach me how to moonwork. Yeah, well, I'm glad you don't get I guess the real question. The answer to my question is that you don't give

a ship what people think about you. The answer to your question to me is that you don't give a ship when people think about you. So that's good. It was a process. There was a process we're taught from as soon as we can understand that women have to be liked by everyone. Even though everyone's got such individual tastes and needs, we have to meet all of them and it just feels like an exhausting, impossible task. So let's just try and please ourselves. Yeah, Jamilla, you really

brought it today. We have some like experts and doctors that call in and I mean, you've fucking killed it. You're better than all of those people. I mean, you really know your ship? No I do. I do. I just adore you. I love your Instagram. If you guys don't follow Jamilla, please do. It's at Jamilla Jamil am. I saying it right, Jamala Jamil. It's at Jamia Jamale official on Instagram. Because of a six year old young boy from Syria took my real name. So that's fine.

He can have, isn't that always the way? That's the least we can do for him. And I want to thank you for coming on today and thank you for imparting your wisdom with us and to us and to our callers. And I hope that I get to see you again in person to same. Well. Look, this wisdom comes from thirty six years of immense and repeated failure. So at least I've done it so that you don't have to to anyone listening, I fucked it all up already. Yeah.

I would love to see you soon. Hopefully we're both in Los Angeles, I think, so let's find each other when all this for sure, we will for sure. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you taking the time, and I want to let you go now, and yes, hit me up and then let me know when you want me to come on any of your podcast honey, and I would be happy to Bye, Okay, have a great day, Bye bye, Catherine, Bye, Thanks, thank you, bye bye.

And if you have a question, or you and a loved one have a question, please write into Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com. Oh, and everybody, I am picking back up my vaccinated and horny tour. If you don't have tickets, please get them Chelsea handler dot com. So please get your tickets. I can't wait to see everybody. Okay guys, thanks,