Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea, Greetings from Whistler, Canada.
You guys got dumped on?
Oh gosh, I cannot ski in deep powder. I got buried like three times the other day. The powder is so deep that I can't even navigate it. I don't know which way to go, and then you fall down and it takes forever to get your skis out because they're under like six four I was under like four feet of snow and I was hanging upside down. At one point, I skied through a tree, double ejected, went
through the woods. Finally, after the third tree I hit, I was like, I think it's time to get out of the woods.
Yeah, it's just.
A hot mess up here. And now I have children at my house.
My cousins are here, Molly and Carrie, and they arrived with their three year old and four year old girls, so that's cute. I don't have children at my house very often.
You know that, little kids.
And then I had my other children here, Katie, my little daughters, my twin buddhas Katie and Jesse. And I was trying to make Katie some food on Saturday night, so I made a bunch of hamburger meat and she's like, she calls me dad.
She goes, Dad, that's disgusting.
I'm not eating anything you cook, like you're not a good cook, and we all know that we can't eat. I'm like, all right, all right, I'm fine. I'm like it's good. I put seasoning, I put onions. I'm like it's good, it's good. And I took a bite. I'm like, oh, this is terrible. You know, I destroy everything I cook. So the next morning I gave it to Doug because I, you know, I figured dogs like hamburger meat. Doug has had an explosive diarrhea now for forty eight hours.
Oh no, he exploded all over.
My carpet, and Molly, my cousin, is trying to clean it up because she knows. I don't know how to clean.
Up feces PSA.
Dogs are not supposed to have onions, so maybe that is why.
Oh cool, what about hamburger meat?
Though hamburger meat should be fine?
Yeah, I was like, what is it? Maybe too fatty for him, that's why he got the diarrhea.
I don't know.
It's a hot shit show in this house, though, you should. Literally this morning, the dog walker friends coming going diarrhea.
My friend stepped in the diarrhea.
How many of errors?
I added a new show in Prior Lake, Minnesota, and then I added a new show in Santa Rosa, California. Second shows for that, so you can go to Chelseahandler dot com. I'm kind of a Salt Lake city too, which is exciting in April and Denver, Colorado. So go to Chelsea Handler dot com for all my tickets and we're going to be adding more and more dates.
Excellent, just always adding more dates. That's always happening. That's a great thing.
This weekend I have Coloonna and Victoria both are sold out, but Victoria on Vancouver Island and then Colowna and then I'm going to go to the Oscar parties on Sunday.
I think I can just get dressed up for the day and then you.
Know, Nike more. That'll be fun. Chelsea. It's International Women's Day this week?
Is it? Oh?
My goodness?
Happy International Women's Day. We love women, women, women, women, women, Chelsea.
Since it's International Women's Day, I wanted to ask you, as women, what are some ways that you feel we can regain our power?
I think it's very important for you to be honest with yourself and never to sublimate your feelings for the benefit of others.
Mm hmm.
I think you have to.
Really, there's such an overcorrection that needs to be made in order for us to balance out, because we have been fed this whole song and dance, our whole lives that men are just more valuable, and that's simply not true.
We are valuable.
And to understand your value, you have to be in a relationship with yourself, to understand who you are, what you're good at, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. And once you can figure those things out, like what you're good at and what you're not good at, then you can excel at the things you're good at and kind of minimize your exposure to the things that don't
bring you as much joy and as much power. But I think the most important thing is to always stand up for yourself, to always, you know, be your best ally.
Yeah, And one thing you talk about a lot is like asking for what you want and asking for what you need. And I was with someone this weekend who you know, when she didn't want to do something, she would say, oh, but you guys, go ahead.
I'm not going to, but you guys go ahead.
And I just was like, I want her to feel confident in to say like, no, you know, let's not do that.
I'm not really into that. Let's go to this other thing over here. And I think the more we can.
Work that muscle and gain that muscle, the more powerful will be.
Yeah.
Absolutely, very important to always just kind of I like to think of myself as like my own little daughter. I'm not going to ever let somebody hurt a little kid, so I'm not going to let anybody hurt me either.
Yeah, you'd want hurt a stand up for herself, so like, let's stand up for her.
M M.
I love that we have a very special guest for International Women's Day. Her ted talk has topped over twenty two million views, Her reformation campaign went viral this week, and her self care and anti harassment activism is widespread, including her most recent anti bullying efforts with stand upto yourself dot com. Please welcome producer, activist, public speaker, and contributing editor at Vanity Fair Monica Lewinsky. I can't believe you're in my studio, but I'm not there. Yeah, it's
so good to see you, Monica. Thank you so much for being our special guest this very important International Women's Day, which we should be having more frequently than once a year. It seems like, Monica, where do we meet? We've met a couple times, right, Once this was with Alissa.
Wright, who I love, and I think we have Maria Schreiber in common.
Yeah, we probably have some people in common. Well, I was meaning to hang out with you at some point. We still have to do that anyway, but now we're hanging out here, so we'll start here. So I'm very excited to talk to you because obviously, well you've been a very public figure for a very long time, and now you have a huge, big perspective on all of the things that you've been through. So I'm sure the way that you look at things has probably changed a lot since you were a young girl.
Right.
Absolutely.
I've had a lot, a lot of therapy and like a lot of healing modalities.
I do it all, so do you.
Oh yeah, My main therapist is a trauma psychiatrist. I have a somatic therapist I have. I call him my energy worker, but he's like, I don't know, it's more resonance kind of resonance work.
And I have a friend apist, and.
What is a friend to pist? I mean, obviously I can figure that out.
Yeah, well, you know, it's someone that I had started working with professionally, not as a therapist, but in other capacities. We became friends, and then a few years ago I was going through just challenging work stuff and she kept stepping up to the plate so much, and I was relying on her so much that I just felt like, because we had had a transactional relationship before and now there was this deeper connection, it just didn't feel like
an even exchange to me. So I was like, I know, I'm going to just pay you a tiny bit of money each week and then you know, so it's great, because I just felt like there needed to be an even exchange. But I find what I find really valuable is that I don't have to always wait until my next therapy B session to process something if it's really important.
Yeah, I want to catch our listeners up.
For anyone who's not familiar with Monica or her story, this was a very very long time ago. Let's set the scene because this was before social media, so we didn't have Instagram.
Or even Twitter.
At that time, we had nothing, and you were caught up in a very, very, the most public scandal of all time probably or one of the most public scandals of all time, and you were only a twenty two year old girl. So your Ted talk, which has received over twenty two million views, was so moving because it is on the subject of cyber bullying and what you went through and the disparities between men and women and
cyber bullying. So at that time, how were you reading this stuff about yourself that people were writing.
It was horrific.
I think in large part, I think it's challenging for anybody in the public eye to read or hear something negative about themselves, but chosen to be a public person. And I literally went to bed one night a private person and awaken the next morning and there was my name above the fold on the newspaper like So it was a very jarring transition and obviously not something people want recognition.
That's not what you want to become.
Known for, and so it was quite challenging, and I think I went through a period where I became almost obsessed with the negativity. But I also felt in many ways that I had to follow along with everything that was going on because it was giving me clues to what was happening legally, and even though I had lawyers, I think we've all gone through this before. When you feel you're in a helpless, feeling situation, any straws that
you can grasp for agency can feel valuable. So it was that way, but it was I mean, it did a total fucking number on me. So I mean I still deal with, you know, with insecurities and issue from ways that I was talked about, both true and untrue. And didn't you mention in one interview that your parents didn't have really the Internet on their computer at home, so you had to like go to an internet cafe.
So my mom, yeah, we didn't. So my parents are divorced.
I was living with my mom in DC and my dad and stepmom are in Brentwood, so my at my mom's we did not. And then when I went out to stay with my dad and stepmom, they had the Internet. And that was I was actually just thinking about it
when we were saying this a few seconds ago. Because I would get up super early, I'd go on the internet, and they eventually established a rule that I wasn't allowed to go on the computer until after breakfast because I would just dive in and then I was, you know, little miss cuckoo pants from what was.
Being the moment you woke up. I'm sure, yeah, well it's just a I mean, it was I wouldn't wish the experience of my worst enemy.
So, you know, I think influencers these days, and obviously it's it's somewhat different from what you went through, but there are bullies out there, there are nasty comments and that sort of thing, and most of us are picking up our phone first thing in the morning, We're going on social media and so like same sort of situation where they're filling their minds with that from the moment they wake up.
Well, any I think too, what we don't think about enough with what we're seeing online is that we all become collateral damage to that, particularly women, when we observe what other people, even if it's other women are saying about other women, we all relate on some level, and so I think that's where it can it can become so toxic for the culture.
When you say, I want to go back to what something you just said, When you said you became obsessed with the negativity.
Can you expound on that a little bit.
I think it was.
I had I mean, like most young women, I had insecurities going in to nineteen ninety eight. I had insecurities as a young woman and trauma that led to my even being in that relationship. I don't know about either of you, but I think that there's when I was young, that feeling of almost the worst thing that could happen would be someone confirming my worst fears about myself. And when that's someone is the entire world, it's pretty fucked up.
So it was just I think that it became sort of like a wound that you just can't leave alone.
It's fascinating to me that psychology, because it's impossible when something is being said about you to just look away, right, especially with that magnitude or that cacophony of the whole world watching. So I can't even imagine on such a large scale because you don't have the tools as a twenty two year old girl. Your brain isn't even fully developed. Yes, you don't have the tools to weather that storm. So it's like a miracle that you're okay.
Okay, is no I'm kidding.
I'm okay, You're okay, okay, but you.
Know, I've I've found it. I don't know.
I don't know if either of you've experienced this, but I think one of the things that's been so magical for me about how things have changed in my life in the last decade is that I've come to learn and understand how when you have that balance of things
starting to sort of gel more in your life. I think feeling like I've been seen for more as my true self, that it has allowed when there's been something negative, something that might have laid me low for an entire day that I kind of am miffed for five minutes, and that there's just a wider landscape that you and a wider context that you feel seen and judged in, so that's been better.
Do you think that's something that kind of comes naturally a little bit with age or would you talk at it mostly to the work that you've done.
I think it's a combination of both, you know, So there's there's the maturity, then there's that, you know, sort of the alchemy that happens between maturity, age, experience and how they all sort of work together. But I'm grateful for it either way, so.
Right, because without the work, if you didn't have the work, you would be a completely different person right now, And you would be so easily triggered by that experience. You know, if not working through that experience, I would only just come up and tap you on the shoulder at the worst, most inopportune time. So you're kind of left with no choice but to do the work right because it's.
The only way out, exactly. And I think that's for me. I had kind of jettisoned what I thought I was doing, was jettisoning my public life in two thousand and five, and I left the States and I moved to London and went to graduate school at the London School of Economics. And the intention there, I think, was that I would leave this old Monica Lewinsky behind and now I was going to be the new Monica Lewinsky with a new scaffolding and start my real life. And of course, you know that didn't happen.
I mean, obviously you could clock when we were being introduced to people that you have to get over that hurdle. I'm so curious as to what that is like. Every time someone meets you they're like, oh, that's the story, Like how does one handle that?
Like did you go at it with humor?
Did you try to disarm people or did you just let everybody figure it out as they went along?
I think probably.
I mean I like to think I'm funny, so I would I'd like to think it was like disarming with humor or just you know, I probably have a much higher EQ than I do IQ and just in that way of sensing people. But also trauma, you know, trauma will definitely shape your senses and your nervous system around how you perceive things, how you try to feel safe.
Someone once said something so interesting to me that people with trauma can't feel safe until everyone else in the room is safe or feel safe to them comfortable.
And I think that's definitely true for me.
But I've had people, which was I took as a compliment, people saying that they get over the speed bump really quickly, which I think is good. But I mean, then you have those funny moments where you can just somehow tell the difference between Sometimes people don't recognize you, they don't know your history, all of those things, and then there'll be times where someone will pretend that they don't know.
Have you ever had this happen?
Like someone pretends that they don't know you or your history, and you're like, wait, I don't know. There's something about the way you're doing, like I know you're either trying to make me feel comfortable or you're trying to be cool or whatever that is.
So what was your first job out of college? Exactly? Exactly? Have you ever worn a beret? I think you look really good.
But and on a larger note, the saying or everything happens for a reason, there are a lot of people who believe that. You know, what do you think about that saying everything happens for a reason.
I think it's bigger than all of that, because I believe in karma, and I believe that idea that things become cyclical in a much larger way over lifetimes. And so that part of me thinks that's an accurate statement. But then there's another part of me that is like, no, you just try and survive, and then this is the story we tell ourselves that, oh, it happened for a reason because it's easier.
You know.
It's sort of like if you've had a friend who's not made great choices in relationships for a long time, and then they meet their person and then and they're like, well, I finally went for the nice guy, you know, and it's like okay, or that's just the story you tell yourself. You know that you stopped wanting the other things. And sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not.
It does seem that you have sort of intentionally tried to arrive at the reason, arrive at the reason that this happened, and you recently have been doing you know, in the last several years, have been doing this anti bullying work. Can you talk a little bit about turning your pain into purpose? And it really seems like that's what you're doing.
Sure, it really ended up being it was not intentional. I think I was trying to find purpose in my life and I couldn't. When I got out of graduate school, I couldn't get a job, and so then I found myself approaching my forties and not really having anything close
to the life I had imagined. But it's the anti bulling work that I've been able to do really stemmed from the first thing I did a decade ago, which was writing a first person essay for Vanity fair, and I think that opportunity I was given to reclaim my narrative and reintroduce myself on my own terms was a really powerful moment, and it allowed people to start to see me in a different light, to a reevaluate the story,
and that allowed me to eventually step into it. Was actually an anti bullying group in the UK called Anti Bullying Program that's part of the Diana Award, and they were the first ones who were sort of said, hey, we'll work with you and really embraced that I had a story to share in a way that could help other people feel less alone, and so that became really important to me and finding a way that you know, so if you're a sensitive person, you just I hate
to say feel you know, I feel your pain, but feeling other people's pain in that sense of the work that I've been able to do has been incredibly rewarding for me. And I think that all of the anti bowling organizations that I'm connected to in different ways, we've all tried to make strides in this area. But there's
still more work to be done, you know. So what's great is we're now having more conversations about bullying and public shaming and harassment, and therefore people feel less alone if it happens to them, it's less stigmatized, which is really important. I believe, you know, the worst things happen when someone's suffering in silence.
I want to talk a little bit about what happens to these people who get bullied. Like I was bullied in high school or elementary school. I was a bullied and I was bullied, and I which came first.
Yeah, exactly which came first?
I think I got bullied and then I started to be like, oh, I have to be that way in order to defend myself, and then I took yeah, and then I was like, oh no, you know, it took me many many years to realize that's not you know, that's not cool either.
So I was guilty of both.
But I do remember in high school and or in elementary or middle school, all of those terrible periods of time, I fucking hated school more than anybody. I couldn't wait for it to be over. I just could not wait to be out of school because I thought it was torture. But I remember having this thought, and this is so childish, and I never was going to go through with it. But I remember thinking if I just ended my life, if I just took my own life, then I would
teach everyone a lesson. And I know that that line of thinking goes through many people's brains.
Did you feel that way, Oh?
Absolutely, for sure.
There were a lot of times that I opped myself to sleep, just praying I wouldn't wake up the next morning and thinking about I mean, really, it was my family that kind of kept me here. And I think anybody who's gone through one cycle of that. The only thing that's positive about having gone through one cycle is that the next time it happens, there's that little tiny voice in your head that knows, if I can just get through this moment, it will get better.
Yeah.
And that's the thing with young people, you know, and online bullying, is that that thought isn't as fleeting. You know, everyone can have the thought, but the idea is to have to be able to tell them this isn't it, This isn't the end of the world. You will survive this, and you will get through this, and you will come out stronger. It's so hard to get through to a teenager.
Right well, and I think it's so important why we tell these kinds of stories. Why we talk about the difficult times that we've been through, because especially if you have a public platform, because it does allow other people to hear, Oh, this person went through something shitty, they felt the way I'm feeling, and their life has shifted
and it's turned around. And that really is sort of at the core of using other people suffering and giving a purpose to your past, is taking that pain and trying to jiu jitsu it.
So, and do you communicate with a lot of young girls, like do you work with them?
Not so much directly with a lot of young women.
I work in with different organizations in different ways and in opportunities that I have. Sometimes when I'm speaking somewhere, someone will have brought their their daughter or their son or their non binary child, and I'll have sometimes have an opportunity to talk to people there, and I will talk to a lot of different people who have gone through big public shamings, but very privately.
Because you touch in your TED talk on these themes of you know, how you survived and how everybody does survive this like public shaming and public bullying. And in another interview I listened to of you, you mentioned that a lot of times people will come up and say, I showed this to my fifteen or sixteen year old kid and like that was a gut punch.
Oh it was for me too.
It was, I mean on the slightly more humorous side. It was a nice shift for me for instead of people coming up and saying, no offense, but do you know who you look like, people would come up and sort of talk about my ted talk, which was very meaningful to me. But I've had teachers say that they've shown it to their students. I've had parents talk about
that it was a very meaningful moment for me. Shortly after the talk, a friend of mine from graduate school had gone to visit her cousin who was going through a hard time, and she saw that he had handwritten out on a piece of paper that was on his desk a quote from my talk, and it was sort of a just did a deep heart moment for me and real gratitude there.
So I think it is, yeah, yeah, that's really wonderful.
I think in healing also that there are so many moments of healing right, Like it doesn't all come in one fell swoop. You don't all of a sudden feel like yourself again. But there are these milestones, right, Can you talk a little bit about what some of yours were like over the years she felt like, oh I've got I've got my feet back underneath me, or I feel like I'm coming into my own in a new way.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting because I've sort of gone through this a bit this past week after I launched this get out the vote campaign with Reformation and it was received really well, and so I worked all last week on Okay, I'm you know, gotten good at weathering a storm. Now I have to be able to enjoy this sunny day. And that's fucking hard. Like it's really I can.
Swear, right, Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.
So but yeah, I know, but I'm just checking, just double checking. So I think that there is I mean, for me, I would say there were some quieter moments of like getting my masters. So the morning of graduation, I was having a really hard time taking in this fact that I was getting a master's degree.
And I came up with.
This kakammy thing where I thought, Okay, if I ran into someone I hadn't seen in the last two years, and I said, oh, what are you doing today? And they said I'm going to get my master's in social psychology from London School of Economics. I would have thought to myself, Oh, I could never do that. Wow, that would never be me. I could never do that. And somehow that unlocks something that allowed me to step into
some of the pride that I had for that. But definitely when the Vanity Fair piece dropped and people started to I mean not everybody. There was a lot of controversy around it, but there were loud enough voices that wanted to start to revisit the story. Doing the Forbes Talk, my Ted talk, you know, doing the work with anti bullying groups, and we did a campaign for Bullying Prevention Month in twenty eighteen and it was nominated for an
Emmy in the Commercial category. So and that was exactly what I had wanted to do coming out of graduate school and I couldn't get a job in it. So it was very rewarding for me. But it's people saying I'm funny on Twitter, my brother having to finally acknowledge I'm funny, Like that.
Was that was such a moment.
After I was I was interviewed by John Oliver and my brother's like, okay, fine, you are funny, you know, because he was always saying, you're really not as funny as you think you are.
I'm funny. I am funny, you know.
It's so you think those were Those are some of the moments. I turned fifty last year, and so I did a lot of personal work leading up to it of really trying to catalog the past decade from before that, and I burst into tears one morning just really thinking about how much had changed and how much had happened, and just how grateful, just how fucking grateful I am.
So yeah, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for you too. I'm grateful at your strength and perseverance. I'm really just I mean, if you could get through something like that, you can get through almost anything. Really, You've turned all of it into something positive. And that is just so admirable and so important for our listeners to hear, because if you're not a kid you have a kid, or if you're like me and smart or like Monica and refuse to procreate, then because I can't.
Prograte because I don't want any of my daughter.
I don't want a daughter going through any of the shit that happens in high school. I'm like, I will never have children because I will never put them through this that was just regular high school.
Well, I have baby popsicles, so I, you know, I froze my eggs and I you know, but I think I'm at a point now where that just didn't happen for me, which is which has actually been not always easy.
So you know, right, yeah, tell me how is your trust level?
Like how is your trust with men and in relationships with women too?
Right?
Well, I you know, I consider myself really lucky because I could see, you know, if I stepped outside of my own experience of this story, I could look at what happened to me and think, oh, yeah, this is going to be a person who is bitter and whose heart is closed for the rest of their lives.
And that's not me.
So I consider myself really lucky that way that I can trust. I.
You know, I think it's still a.
Challenge in romantic relationships somewhere of a challenge there. And my therapist will often say to me, She's like, well, the paradox of you is that the very skills and things that allowed me to survive this sort of well of hope or my perseverance and not giving up.
She's like, it's not.
So it's like a little maladaptive in romantic relationship.
So well, I think not every man can be with a strong woman. Not every man is up to the challenge.
Well done, Brad.
And I also think too that there's I think there's something with this generation too, that we're sort of sandwiched between the Boomers and the millennials and that where things were changing, and so you had a lot more people, particularly I think Gen X men eventually coming out that
was more acceptable. So you still had with the Boomers and the silent generation a lot of men who got married who were gay, a lot of men who were gay who married women either because it wasn't acceptable or they didn't even know they were gay, right, And then our generation it was you know, I think men started to come out later. But then the younger generations are the ones where it's been much more fluid, and so I think that there literally are less straight men available.
So I mean, it is.
God, thank God, we had an overdose for a while. Truly, we need some non straight man more of them.
Yeah, So it's a you know, I'm at a point now where I'm like it'll happen or it won't happen. You know, I have a lot of great things in my life.
What I like a partner? Sure, but that's okay.
Well on that. No, we're going to take a break and we'll be right back. And we're back.
Oh, we are back for our first question.
We're going to have a caller, and Christina is going to join us on the line. But she says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a female in my thirties and a resident physician at a hospital in New York City. During my training, I've experienced a substantial amount of sexism within my department, including favoritism, rule bending, inappropriate and non constructive criticism, additional
tasks or tasks withheld, and yes, sexual harassment. I have discussions with my other female co residents in which we all have our own experiences to share.
I decided to become involved.
In leadership and was asked to create a project relating to diversity, equality and inclusion. I thought this would be the perfect opportunity to conduct a survey with the goal of bringing to light the gender inequalities in my department. After finding a legitimate and validated survey with many citations and publications. I was met with complete pushback. After talking with higher ups, I received numerous phone calls from URHR
rep expressing concern for potential consequences of the survey. I was advised to just drop it and go ahead and find a new project.
The have it caused by a request for.
Permission to conduct a survey along the lines of sexism tells me all I need to know. I listened to your podcast every week on my walk to and from work and all the great advice you provide. I know there's no quick fix to this, but I met a loss as to how I can move past this. How am I supposed to continue these next few years working for such a sack of shit place, knowing it covers all this up and there's nothing I can do about it. How am I supposed to encourage female medical students to
come here for their residency. I cannot risk my training position by pushing the issue, and I need some of the higher ups in question to write me letters of recommendation upon my departure, any guidance on how to navigate the sexist political nightmare while we wait for these old barnacles to fall off.
Christina Wow.
Hi Christina.
Hi, Hi, this is Monica, our special guest today, Monica Lewinsky.
Nice to meet you, Christina.
I know you mentioned something to me that I would love for you to share with Monica as well of why you were like, I actually have to call it.
I have your biography from ninety eight on my nightstand. I had about forty pages left when Catherine told me that you were going to be on and I was like, Okay, I have to go. I have to do it.
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
That was an authorized biography that Andrew Morton did and that I participated in, and he's a great person. I do not recommend doing an authorized biography right when you're coming out of the most traumatic year of your life that is also written in three months.
But you know, help pay the legal bills, Yeah exactly, you know, there you go.
Yeah, so your situation.
You have tried to kind of blow the whistle on the situation there and you were met with a lot of pushback, right, correct, And do you see any other avenues for you to pursue that line of accountability?
So the only other thing I could do is like, go, I guess find the correct authoritative people to kind of report things to. But unfortunately, I think it would have the same outcome or the same negative effect in terms of what my reputation would be or some of the ways I would be treated. And I still need, you know, a lot of things from these people forward with my career. Kind of a tough situation.
It sounds like a tough situation, and I'm sorry that you're in it.
Did you so did you already deal with HR on this when you asked to do the survey or.
So they just kind of ghosted me. I never heard anything back. They said they would get to, you know, touch base with me at some point, but it's like they wouldn't even say no. You know, it's like I'm just asking for permission. So if the answers no, then just say no, and you know, give me whatever reason you can come up with. But it's like they just completely brushed it under the rug and just ignored me.
What is the vibe at work? Is it a daily occurrence?
Like, are you constantly just dealing with being marginalized there?
Yeah, pretty much. And it's and it's not just the men either, it's it's the women too. You know, it's kind of like sometimes the women attendings are harder on the female residents, and you know, a lot of the HR people are women. It's tough, it's it's just kind of you know, no one wants to lose their job.
I know, And I'm so against keeping your head down.
I don't know how you feel about that, Monica, but like I'm very much about telling on people. I like to tell on people, especially when it's that this issue, because this issue, it's so weird that we're living in this time, you know, where we just had Me Too and the repercussion and of Me Too is basically the
overturning of Roe v Wade. Yeah, like I look at that as all, you know, like we stand up for ourselves and then they're like shut the fuck up, don't talk too loudly, and don't stand up for yourself too strongly, like whack them all?
Yeah, right, right? And how many years do you have left in the program?
But two?
Right?
And do you think that, like what are you thinking?
Are you thinking that you can survive that and that you're going to just like get through it?
I mean, I guess I don't really have another choice.
Well, you do have a choice.
You.
You do have choices here.
You can decide to make a big deal out of this and blow the whole thing up.
You can. I don't know if that's what you want to do.
It's that doesn't sound like that's necessarily the best option for you, But it is what I.
Want to do, of course. But no, I don't think it's the best thing to do in my particular situation. But it's kind of like, how do we ever progress if everyone thinks that way? You know, if everyone is putting their head down and just complying because we're trying to get, you know, to to get and we've all worked very hard to get to this place. You know, it's not it's a lot to put on the line, but like, how do you force change if everyone does that?
Well, I think there are other ways to kind of stand up for yourself without making it this huge thing where you're calling everyone out. I think there's a you know, it's kind of like, you know, how there's microaggressions. There's also micro assertions, like ways to make yourself be more you know, standing up for yourself in a way where it doesn't have to be kind of a blanket statement.
It's actually individual to you like, I'm actually not willing to do this, I actually don't appreciate being spoken to like this, or you know, like little little things where if that's how you see yourself and you start actually calling people out on the little things without making it a huge deal, but being like, I actually don't really appreciate being spoken to like that or just being overlooked in that way.
It kind of feels like it's because I'm a woman.
I find the phrase that's not going to work for me sort of sometimes can feel really empowering and also puts the ball back in someone else's court of Okay, this isn't going to work, and therefore come up with another fucking solution, you know, or suggestion of something else.
Yeah, you mentioned there are opportunities that are given to some of the male residents or taken away from the female residence. Maybe there is just some questioning that you can do on an individual basis, like, oh, is there a reason that this task or opportunity is going to this person instead of this other person, whether it's you or another woman resident.
Yeah, I mean that's true. For instance, there's a certain rotation where if there is a female resident on with other male residents. This one attending will only ask the female to go like run errands, like to a console, other physicians, or give them cases, like not even their case. But if there's two females on then you know, he'll kind of go back and forth between the two females. But like, the males never get asked unless there is no female in service, of course, so things like that.
But yeah, I think that I think you're right. I think it does need to be just said in the moment.
Yeah, in the moment.
And also, like, you know, I learned this a few years ago about when I'm having a confrontation to be light and happy about it and be overly like smiley, because you have to actually act that way with people, especially men, because they're like, oh, all of a sudden, you're you're contesting something that they're saying and you're a bitch.
But if you're smiling and you're friendly and you're like, but wait, it's kind of weird that you're only asking the women to do this, right, Like it's almost like you have to play with their brains, you know, And it's almost I don't want to say in a flirtatious way, but sometimes I do do that where I'm like, wait, I don't understand, are you giving? Because this one guy I went and I was pulling up to this nail salon.
I had forgotten something and this guy I was at a meter and I didn't put money in the meter because I was just running up to the nail salon on Montana Avenue and I came downstairs and the guy goes, excuse me, miss miss, missmiss, you didn't put any money in your meter, And I was like, who the fuck are you my fault?
Like why are you a meter maid? Who cares what I'm doing?
But I was like, okay, this is a man telling a woman what to do, And even though it's not the biggest thing, it is a very micro aggression. If you get enough of those, it becomes a macro aggression and it's fucking annoying. You know what man would say that to another man, You forgot to put money in your meter? Mister Like, no, that's it's definitely a male female like dynamic.
So I said to him, I go, I'm sorry, but I just I'm so confused.
Why do you care what I'm doing with my meter? And then I like slapped him on the shoulder, like in a playful way. I'm like, I'm just really curious. He goes, well, I'm just looking out for you, and I said, but are you? Are you looking out for me? Like do you think that I don't know about parking meters like that? I don't know what goes on? You know, this isn't my So it's like, but just that tonality, like he clearly saw what he did in our small exchange.
I just wrote about this and he was like, oh god, I go it's just kind of unnecessary. Do you understand like women were just so sick of being told especially by men. I'm sure you meant well, but it doesn't I don't need you. You're not my babysitter. I'm a grown woman. I'm in my like I'm almost fifty, you know, like stop so And it was a nice conversation. I ended up giving a kiss on the cheek as I
left him for being such a good listener. But do you know what I'm saying, It's like the small kind of calibration to just kind of change the narrative so it's.
Not like, oh, you're whining and bitching and moaning, because that they can use against you.
So if you go in there with like playfulness and kind of you know, not flirty, you don't need to flirt with anyone that's like, you know, that's not cool for us to even have to do, but in a more playful manner, like, oh, interesting, you should take a look at that, And so it doesn't feel like such a threat to them. I think maybe it's easier for people to see it that way.
Yeah, they're definitely more men, especially are more receptive when you're a little.
Smiley and yeah, and who cares, like we're just manipulating them anyway into seeing their own behaviors.
So I'm all for that.
I feel like we are societally built to think this is a zero some game and only one woman could succeed, and we're in competition with each other because of what men the way that you know, we've all been going through the world for millions of years. It is a man's world, and women are like, oh fuck, there's not going to be three of us at the top. There's only going to maybe be one of us, so everyone else get out of the way. But I think you can do the same thing, like actually, it's not even
like confronting them. It's actually pointing out, go oh, that's interesting. We're actually working against each other, like because of the guys, Like, isn't that funny?
Don't you think it's funny?
You know, like in a conversational way, just like pointing out things that you notice or in the moment that they're happening.
Or after the fact, with a version of you know, I'm sure it was unintentional, but it seems to me that I've been asked to do this where some of the other male residents haven't. And is there something personal to that I don't you know, or that you doubt it's personal.
And you can also sort of you know, you know these things are happening, so you can maybe bypass the questioning about it and go straight to the solution. And I think, especially with the women applying to their better nature and their mentorship, maybe a good solution saying you know what, I really am feeling like, I want to challenge.
Myself over these next few months, you.
Know, I want to take on additional tasks if there's any any time, you know, maybe you have specific examples, but if there's anything that I can do to do more challenging work. I'm really interested in doing that because I want to be the best doctor that I can be, and like really applying to that sense of mentorship could be a way through that as well.
Yeah, definitely, I think that's I think that's great advice. I think the sort of it's difficult for women in medicine, and especially if you're you know, we have a lot of international attendings too, so I think they had to work really hard and probably had to experience that stuff themselves.
My best friend from college is a is a pediatrician, so I know she's I hear numerous stories about both ways she's respect and ways she needs to assert herself at times, and so it is a balance. I think it is finding that balance, and I'm sure you've done this, but it's also good to just be documenting what's happening, you know. So yeah, it doesn't have to be a whole report, but.
Yeah, I agree with that too.
Yeah, and even if you know, I don't know if this is the sort of thing that you would talk to somebody in the media about on an anonymous basis, but especially if you are documenting it, you have specific examples and dates and times and people that you can that you can reference.
And then again like you know these things are happening.
Maybe it's skipping something like the survey and going straight to suggesting like hey, you you know you wanted me to do this leadership and DEI.
Maybe we go ahead and have a training. Maybe we go ahead and take some steps.
And you know, do some sort of a rotation where it's like doctors are all about systems, right, you have your checklist, you have your system. So maybe it's like, hey, instead of just like picking willy nilly, here's who gets the task or here's who gets the opportunity, maybe we have a rotational thing so everybody is getting you know, the same level of opportunities. I don't know if that's something that can happen because I know it's very hierarchical.
But maybe just bypassing going straight to the solution.
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the things we talked about for like a project idea was to do like some sort of PowerPoint like presentation on you know, workplace microaggressions. But the thing is is it's already a training. You know, it's already a module training, right that's required, and so it's like no one's paying attention to that or the people.
I think with trying to change social behavior, we found with some of the PSAs that we did that getting people to feel an emotion always helps shift thinking and behavior a lot faster than just hearing information. And maybe there's I don't know what that creative solution is, but maybe there's a way of if you're doing that, maybe it's writing scripts and having the men be the women in something funny and you know, some version of that, because that's what people remember is how they felt.
Yeah, that's so true.
That's true, especially through humor, even though it's not a humorous situation. It kind of takes the weight off of it. It takes the weight off of feeling like you're learning.
Yeah, like a skit or something like that.
Yeah, medical snl. Yeah.
Yeah, it's like we have to outsmart men now just to like it's so exhausting, you know, we're not allowed to be smart, and then we have to become smarter than them to like make change or make something different.
And it makes you pay more attention to the you know, to things that probably are nothing and you're like, oh, that's something. It's like when I go for a hike and you know, you're trying to pass somebody and it's a mail and then he's like, he's like go ahead, and I'm like, don't tell me what to do.
You know, but it's like, isn't it funny? I find in the car so much. I don't understand why people have such an issue of letting someone pass, Like I want to go faster than you do.
Why do you fucking care? Like it's such a weird thing.
It is so it just but also what about people who scream at people while they're driving?
O wait, road rage?
It's so harossing, I do.
I had a boyfriend once, Ted Harbert, who pulled over someone else. He pulled over another car. He's not a police officer, it wasn't then, and he literally made this arms gesticulation to this crazy driver. We were in Venice, California, and he went like this and pulled over and the woman pulled over.
And I was like, oh my god, what are you doing?
And he's like, I can't deal with this, and he went out and screamed it her and goes, you have no friends, That's what he said too.
And I was like, how I'm supposed to be fucking you? Like are you kidding me? You have no friends? And like after this and all of it was mind blowing.
I'm like, well, pulls over for a random man going like this, talk.
About man's blaming.
Oh my gosh.
Anyway, I digress. That wasn't a very necessary story, but when I had to share. But yes, I think it's great that you're asking these questions, and I think it's great that you're open to like solutions, like a non traditional solution, like you have to get creative, and that's only going to serve you in the long run anyway, to deal with more situations like this, because they're gonna, unfortunately be there, you know what I mean. You're going into the medical field. This isn't going to be the
first time you're dealing with this. So I think if you just try like a couple of different approaches and then when you find one that works, then that's going to be like something that you're going to be able to use throughout the rest of your career to put people in their place.
Yeah. No, I think everything you guys said is really good advice. I think it's you know, you have to kind of girl the courage to say things in the moment, and not everything is in the moment. Some things are like, you know, you talk to my like I'll talk to my male co residents and then they'll tell me, oh, that's weird, like they didn't have me do that, and you're like, really, you know, it's kind of like you're finding out after the back things that do happen. I
think I think you're right. I think I need to just address that, just you know, finding the courage.
Yeah, and the tone and the right tone, because the right tone is everything you could say. You could say fuck you eighteen different ways, and one of them can be friendly, you know, like you can find different ways to say almost anything where it becomes more of a conversation and more.
Of a thought, like oh, you say to your doctor like, oh my god, that's so funny.
I was talking to the male interns like they've never done any of this stuff. I wonder why that is.
They don't know how the coffee maker works. How funny?
Yeah, is that part of the rule, you know, like almost kind of in a playful way.
And see where that gets you.
As Chelsea said earlier, I'm sorry you're going through this. You shouldn't have to do all this extra fucking work.
So I agree, But it's everywhere. I mean, that's that's the unfortunate part. You know, we're still talking about this. Yeah, it happens everywhere, medicine not medicine.
So yeah, well, keep us posted, let us know how everything is going with you.
I will hope you enjoyed the last forty pages of the book.
Bye bye, well.
Our next caller, Ali says, Dear Chelsea, my dad was diagnosed with ALS when I was two and a half and died a week after my fourth birthday. I'm turning thirty on March fourteenth, and every year my birthday and the week's leading up to it are awful.
Try as I may, it's.
Often an anxiety ridden day that I white knuckle through and often don't enjoy. I get stressed about it months in advance. I've tried everything. My grief tends to come and deeer the month of March.
Every year.
It's like my body is remembering everything and grieving, and every year I'm surprised I can't get out from under it. Honestly, my best birthdays aren't even up there with neutral days in my life. I'm an extrovert with incredible people in my life who want to celebrate me and who know this and try to support me each year, and it's still a day in a month. I'd rather just fast forward right through. Can you help me enjoy my birthday?
Ali?
Yes, Yes we can. Ali. Hi, Hi, Hi speak, How cute you are? This is Monica Lewinski, our special guest today.
Hi, nice to meet you.
Hi'm lotka, nice to meet you. Nice to see you.
Catherine, you need to flip it and reverse it. Sister.
You are going to start now in the month of March and just do Every morning you are going to get up and do all you're going to write down. We're going to get you a list of affirmations where you're going to say, this is going to be the month that I celebrate my father's life and that he celebrates my birthday with me. And you are going to go through that month enjoy because you had a father. It wasn't his fault he died. He doesn't want to
see you mourning for him a month every year. He wants you to enjoy your birthday and you're going to enjoy it with his spirit and mind. You have to take hold of this and take hold of him and be like, we're doing this together. This is the year that I am going to enjoy my birthday, and I'm going to enjoy this month, and I'm just going to be appreciative for all the love that I have in my heart for you, because that's really what it's all about.
You know, there's no point in grieving. Obviously it's a natural feeling. You can't control grieving, But there's no point in suffering because now you're suffering more than grieving, do you understand.
Yeah, that's the difference.
So it's like it'll hit me in October and I'm like, this is grief, and then every March I'm confied and it feels more like suffering and not like grief.
Yeah. Yeah, Also, what Chelsea's saying in other words, is finding a new story for it. You know. So I went through something similar, different underpinnings. But so January sixteenth for me, every year was January sixteenth was the day I was stung by the FBI and I found out about the investigation happening and was told if I didn't wear a wire, I was going to jail for twenty seven years, blah blah blah, and the sort of next year or two, I dreaded that day, I dreaded.
One oh one pm.
That's this is when it happened last year, and then I think it was maybe by the third year, I decided that I was going to celebrate it as Survivor's Day, and so my family and I do that every year, and January sixteenth is Survivor's Day. I, by myself a present. I try to celebrate as much as I can. And changing that narrative around that event made a difference. And so I wonder if there's you know, is there a different story to find.
No, it makes sense. Yeah, it's this bodied remembering.
Yeah, yes, and you just chase. I mean, we have the power to do that.
It's just that we feel kind of wrapped up in our own feelings and we don't know how to get out of them. Sometime, but like even as simple as finding out some of your dad's favorite books, right, or some of your dad's favorite things, and spending that time when the date is coming along or you know, your birthday's coming along, or whichever the day you know, reading what he loved or experiencing some of the things that he loved. Whatever his hobbies were like as a way
of connecting him to your life now. And I guarantee you the more you welcome people who are gone, and the more you wring them towards.
You, like I do it in meditation all the time.
I always just imagine my mom who's passed away, and my brother as these kind of like mythical little nymphs like in Greek mythology, like dancing through the sky. I always just summon them when I'm meditating because that's like my light that's protective, and your father is protecting you. Like that's what happens. You know, people who are in your life, they never just go away. Their energy is with you forever, and it's worth celebrating and it's worth honoring.
It's not just about the time you didn't have with him. It's about the person that he was and that he created you. And I think there's a lot of stuff that you can do and set yourself up for turn it into a celebration. Yeah.
There Also what comes up for me is I wonder too if there was anything that happened when you were so little that you somehow coupled you know, kids, as kids, we make our own stories.
Definitely.
Yeah, was there some narrative or something you you overheard that you maybe misinterpreted as a kid that made you loop that connection of sort of this negativity and that. And I'm clearly not saying you were responsible for your dad's death. I think kids can kids can take that on and sort of that you know, that version, and so there could be you know, your younger self could be in there sort of still holding on to that narrative.
Yeah, I think it's a feeling of a lack of control that I that's a trigger for me in my life. I've in general, but I think, yeah, he did hospice in the home, so there were years of me watching that that I don't remember, but I was there, right, And so every March it's like my body is like something happened twenty five.
Years ago that scared the shit out of us, right, and like my body remembers first. And so I.
Really I think because of that, I avoided this month maybe more than I would in a different month, because I'm afraid to kind of like turn into the curve. And I like what you're both saying about claiming it, not trying to.
Put it under the rug, because I'm not like that. My family is not like that.
There's no reason for me to say, hey, I really miss him today. It's no reason I can't say that or do a toast to him at my birthday dinner.
Do you live either in California or Florida where there's like a design I'm in La Okay, you know, going to my my energy guy, he talks about like literally disrupting the pattern in your body and how it could be so great to like Disneyland is a rate to place to do that, going on a roller coaster rides, going on the rights and maybe maybe doing doing that on your birthday. It's literally shaking up your pattern.
Yeah, when I travel, My birthdays are better every time I travel. Which is interesting that you say that I have people coming here which will still be different and good.
And know something, you know, whatever you focus on intensifies, right, So if you're focusing on the loss, that is intense feeling. If you focus on the love and the experience that you had, that will intensify. So it really is a choice that you make and it becomes a practice, but it works.
You know.
It's like, have you had any somatic healing or somatic therapy.
I talked to Catherine about that. I do therapy, and I've always done like king.
And body work. I don't know that I've ever done like us somatic therapist.
Yeah, you might want to look into that because that is healing your body.
Yeah.
The La Pain and Psychology Center is where I have gone. My therapist is there and that's been super super helpful for me in getting certain stuff out of my body. And just how you say, like it's like your body triggers your emotions with this, like it starts in your body.
That might be something to look into. Yeah, and I know, Monica, you do some semitic I have a sematic. Yeah, every other week I do. I have a somatic session.
So yeah, because your body remembers for sure, I'm like always every year, I'm like the last to know why.
I'm just I'm like, oh, yeah, I do this every year.
Well can you just you could you like when you start to really pay attention to it too, I mean they're just the subtle.
I know.
Early on working with my somatic therapists, I had this realization that I feel I am on my legs, I'm not in my legs, and so like even just a little something like that just really reorients how you how you see and experience your life. You know.
Yeah, so interesting. Thank you so much. I'm going to look into.
That happy early birthday.
Thank you. Ten days until I'm thirty.
Oh this is perfect. This is perfect timing for you to turn the beat around.
Yeah, new decade.
And also have you ever read have you ever read any of like like Signs from the Universe by Laurlyn Jackson?
I haven't, but I heard her on your podcast and learned about her work.
I have her book. I haven't read it yet, but I do do that.
I have a sign that I have with him, and he does it's the band of who it's and he does.
Come to me a lot. I ask for him.
Yeah, I talked to him a lot. I feel connected to him. The older I get, which is great. And so this year I think I'm like, let's get real dat.
Okay, yep, yep, yeah, yeah, Well good for you. You're going to be fine, It's going to be better.
Thank you, Thank you, al. I really appreciate this.
Yeah, Okay, take care, thank you.
Bye.
What a perfect little face. She I was looking at her face. I was like, oh, you're like a little baby doll.
But I think that idea of turning toward the pain you feeling, or turning into your body, that was something that was a real key for me. Was because I was having a lot of stress that was manifesting in physical pain. And there were times when I would have pain in one part of my body and I actually turned inward and focused on it, it either changed or dissipated or lessened. But also I would notice things like, oh, I think I'm only having this pain in this this
is the only sensation I can focus on. And when I actually did a body scan, I'm like, oh my gosh, my hands are tingling, or you know these other body sensations that I could I wasn't even aware of because I was so focused on trying to not focus on the pain.
And when you actually.
Look inward and focus on it, whether it's emotional, physical pain, it can change your relationship to it. Obviously, it doesn't cure every pain, but like I can change your relationship to it so well. Our last question comes from Adria. Dear Chelsea, I'm turning fifty in August, and I'm blissfully single and child free as such, I've not had a wedding, a bridal shower, a bachelorette party, a baby shower, or received gifts or money for any major life events beyond
high school graduation. I didn't even send out graduation notices when I earned my undergrad or graduate degrees.
My chosen careers have never been.
Especially lucrative actor teacher, bartender, and I'm currently self employed as a pet sitter. I also volunteer five or six days a week at my county's woefully underfunded animal shelter. My goal is to open a humane society operating on government contracts, essentially doing away with the animal shelter, as was done with great success in a neighboring county. I want to ask my friends and family members for money to start this humane society, with the purpose of the
announcement being my fiftieth birthday present. My conundrum about doing this is twofold. First, will starting something like a GoFundMe for this be perceived as ghosh or worse lazy? In other words, why am I not well connected or financially solvent enough by this age to accomplish this without their help? Second, I think I deserve to be acknowledged. Nay is celebrated for not adding to the world's overpopulation or being another divorced statistic, which I surely would have been if any
of my prayer relationships had led to marriage. So how do I bring this up without offending those who have chosen to get married and have kids? Thanks so much, love the show, Adria.
I think starting a gofund me is that what she's asking?
Like, Yeah, for sure, absolutely, that's perfect go fundme material. Mm hmmm. I don't have a problem with that at all, and I don't wouldn't worry about I mean, the people you're gonna offend, You're going to invite a lot of people that are not going to be offended to focus on those people.
Right, I think this is a perfect way to like reach out. I don't think it's gohosh, I don't think it's seen as lazy. Ask your friends to share it, and I think there is You know, this is such a cute, funny way to be like, I haven't asked for you know, baby shower gifts or any of these other things, Like this is how you can give back to me because I want I mean, you're not asking for yourself you're asking for this humane society that's incredible.
And also can always sort of say if you can to people. I think just like giving people because sometimes you know, people feel uncomfortable asking for money. It's like, if you can, if you, if you can do this, great, this is what I I would like and you should feel good about yourself that you have such an amazing friend who this is what she wants.
For her fiftieth berxactly.
And if you can't give financially, I would love if you share it on your social media exactly, and other people may get involved. It can be a whole community effort. Like I think this is a wonderful thing to do.
Yeah, I love it. I love it.
Yeah, good job, Adria, go for it.
Problem solved.
Well that's all we got.
Oh okay, well we're going to wrap it up. Monica.
It was such a pleasure to have you on our show. Yes, being here, and I want to hang out when I'm back in La.
Okay, for sure, let's go out.
We'll go out with Maria and we'll have some drinks. Maria has to watch me drink though, because she doesn't drink, so I don't drink either.
But oh well, then they both watch me and I'll.
Drink until ten o'clock. I'm like everybody who drinks gets boring after ten pm, so no worry.
I'm I'm in bed by nine thirty.
Oh no problem, me too. Grandma hours. That's what I call it. I keep Grandma hours.
So okay, Well take care. So yeah, and Happy International Women's Day. Wow.
We mentioned this at the start of the show, but the team here at Dear Chelsea is celebrating International Women's Day this week. For more programming honoring the incredible women at the network and worldwide, head over to iHeart Podcasts International Women's Day feed by searching Women Take the Mic wherever you look for podcasts. We're featured alongside Therapy for Black Girls, The Psychology of Your Twenties, Cheeky's and Chill,
the Nikki Glazer Podcast, and others. That's Women Take the Mic on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Okay, so, Chelsea Handler is my name and comedy is my game. Comedy and therapy are my games. I'm sorry, I misspoke. I have added more shows. I added a second show in Vancouver, so I have two shows in Vancouver March twenty ninth March thirtieth. Then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July thirteenth, So i have two shows in Sydney July twelfth and thirteenth. For other shows in Australia at New Zealand, go to Chelseahandler dot com.
And I've added two shows in Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma on May third and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma, which is May fourth, and then I'll be at the YouTube Theater May eleventh in Los Angeles with Matteo Laine and Vanessa Gonzalez and Fortune Femmester.
And Sam Jay. Those are my updates and more shows are coming, so pay attention.
If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickard executive producer Catherine Law and be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com