In Defense of Bathhouses with Dan Savage

gimbal shots. They are all sorts of cameras that I've never fucking heard of, and I don't want to know anything more about them. Curtains and drapery and lighting and la la la la. Joe did everything for me. He

arranged everything. He just asked me to pick out certain colors and this and that, and then went in and got on stage at like nine in the morning at the theater with my producers Michelle and Shannon, who are an incredible producing team, and I he goes, come in at four thirty, honey, do whatever you need to do to get in the zone and just come in and four thirty and I was the most most experience I've ever had, And I am so grateful to have not only a partner, but somebody who has in this world

that I operate in shorthand Yeah, and he's cool and it has style, like you know, so I don't have to think about any of that. And I'm just it was just a delight. So we're home now, we've been on the road for three weeks and we're home. So it's time for me to de bloat, because this travel section really got after me drinking, eating, drinking, eating, traveling constipation. I'm just like, what is that? Why do you when you travel you don't go to the bathroom. I don't

like that at all. And then I tried this new product, this green drink, which I was like, great because it makes you go to the bathroom a lot, but then you're constipated for two days after so I think it cleans you out so much that you've got nothing left to give for two days. And then, uh, so our plane ride home was just long, long, long, because I

just wanted to detox. You know, I'm feeling already so much better being home good, and to make your own choices and like eat what you want to eat that

makes you feel good. My therapist and I even talking a lot about that, like mindfulness and intuitive eating, eating what you know in a half an hour is gonna make your body feel good and just like little swaps, yes, yes, yes, because it's nice and like eating clean makes you such a difference in your mental clarity, and like for me, that is everything because I hate feeling foggy and on the road. Inevitably I start to drink, I start to

eat badly. You know, you make poor decisions when you're hungover. You think you're gonna be able to stick to your diet even when you drink, but it's not like that. You wake up, you have a bad night of sleep, then you need more food for fuel comfort, and then you go and make bad decisions. And when I eat clean, I'm just I have higher energy levels. Yeah, absolutely, and you're just like feel better, like physically, you don't get that,

like you said, tons of bloating. You don't get that nauseous feeling if you're you know, having a potato chip or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I had a bag of Cheetos on the road. Was my first bag of Cheetos probably and like two years and yeah, and I started for three days, so I'm not eating studios again. It's so disgusting. I did get to see my nephew though. We picked him up. He was in Detroit. I had a show

an Ontario Windsor. So we picked him up in Detroit and drove across the bridge to Canada with him, trying to deprogram him from his ultra conservative views. Not ultra but too conservative for my liking. His mother has been programming him for a long time. Indoctrinating him is how I like to frame it. Um. She's a Russian nationalist. So we had to, you know, say, and we did. All of us had a really good time kind of debating back and forth to do with him about what

he thinks is the real state of things. Yeah, did you hear feel some movement on him? Because he's nineteen. My security guy Buddha was there and he's like, you know, Chelsea, I remember when I was in nineteen. I believe that ship too, you know, like he he said things like, oh, you know, I don't know if I don't believe racism is as big of a problem as people make it out to be. And it's likely if you're white, you're you wouldn't know, how would you know, you're white and

your nineteen and your whole life is set up for success. Yeah. Yeah, he's in college. He's interning, and I mean thankfully he's in college because he's going to be around other people that will hopefully open his eyes and mined up to things. But he's still upset that he didn't get into, you know, the college he wanted to get into. And you know, he thinks that somebody else took his spot that was maybe less qualified, and we had to explain to him

why that's not even an issue. So shut the suck up. If he didn't get a four point oh, then you know, yeah, it's not someone else's fault. Martha came to my show. Yeah, Martha Stork came to my show in God, it's so hard to remember where I just want Yes, yes, she and her crew came. That was fun, and Joe came on stage with us. So it was good to see Martha out and about maybe she's eighty years old, she's like still very beautiful. Yes, yes, radiant, that's what I said.

I said, luminous. She really Joe's because we looked it up at lunch after Joe met her outside Joe's like, how old is that woman? I mean, she seems young and I was like, yeah, I know, I think she's probably late seventies. And then I looked it up and she's eighty. Yeah. People are getting older. People are getting older and happening. One of my great grandmother said, you never truly mature until you hit eighty really, so maybe she's mature. Now, Well, what about who people who don't

hit eighties? I mean, what's their story. I definitely don't feel fully mature, and I don't know when that's going to hit me because I'm sucking forty seven, so I would like that to hit sooner than later. Although it doesn't sound super fun to be mature, like that just sounds I feel like I'm already less fun than I used to be, Like I want to go to bed at nine thirty. Last night, Joe and I were up and and he came home at like six thirty, and I had already taken my edible with dinner, so I

was fading out around. I was already like tired at six thirty, but I just came back from the East Coast, so I was kind of I used that excuse when it's suits me that I was on East Coast time only when it suits me, and I'm like, well, it's nine thirty and I usually like to go to bed around ten thirty, you know. But I was fading out and he's like, do you want to go out and get a juice somewhere? And I just looked at him like, no, I don't leave the house. I'm not I don't want

to go anywhere. I fell asleep on the sofa. We watched one episode of the Staircase to get him up to speed, the fictionalized the sc scripted version, not fictionalized, because they actually say because I was toggling back and forth between The Staircase the HBO Max One and then going to Netflix to see like, oh, is that girlfriend of his the documentarian in the Staircase documentary? But then

I was like, no, idiot, you're high shoot. No documentarian puts themselves in the documentary, especially when they're sucking the person that there is starring in the documentary. So that didn't make any sense. But that show is so disturbing and that guy is so guilty, it's just so ridiculous. And then the sexy and it's like that sex scene of him eating her ass in the kitchen. I heard about this, I haven't seen. I've seen the documentary, but

I haven't seen. Well, it's obviously not in the documentary, but it's because that they took a little license with that eating her ass in the kitchen, and it's like, first of all, who's ready to get their asset in the middle afternoon? I mean, you need to prep for that. And then there was another really gross sex scene between Tony Glenn and Colin Firth. I mean, Colin Firth really pulls it off because he plays a very He is disturbing, you know, and creepy and like, I mean he's so good, yeah,

so good. Yeah, Yeah, he's a really yeah, he's a really good actor. Because even when they've interview him behind the scenes for the staircase, you're like, oh, you're actually sexy in real life. You've made yourself kind of unsexy, not kind of. But what I still don't understand is if my father, like if my mother was found at the bottom of the stairwell by my father, even if it was my birth father, I would not be on his side. There is no chance that I would believe

any of that horseship. So the fact that four of his children are so fucked up that they believe that their father is innocent when everything is pointing to the fact that he is not makes me I rate big spoiler alert. I don't even know if I should say

this to you, but what happened in his past? Yeah, I mean, especially after you find that out, it's like, wait a minute, well who cares those Either you saw the show where you didn't and I want to say, there's a scene in the movie or one of the things where they say, oh, you there is no such thing as a serial staircase killer, right, because I'm like, there is now, this is one, like, it's not to accidents,

it's just not right. And then the other ex wife from the past, he's all, you know, out of sorts. I'm just like, she's a hot mess too and has been brainwashed or brain injured. You know. Yeah, good points. So anyway, that's been keeping us busy for a while. But I think we're going to move on to Atlanta now because I'm behind in Atlanta and I want to catch up with because I hear that's a really good show. Yeah.

We watched the first couple of seasons of that and really enjoyed it, but then it's taken kind of so long for new season's to come out that we've sort of falling off the wagon with that. We've gotta jump back on that train. Well before we get to all the fun stuff, We'll take a quick break. Okay, sounds good, We'll be right back. Oh. Our guest today is a an advice columnist himself. You probably know him from his

advocacy work on the It Gets Better campaign. He is a co writer of the upcoming film called Spoiler Alert, and he is the host of Savage Love Cast, which is in its season. Please welcome Dan Savage. Hi, Dan, Hey, Chelsea. Hi, It's nice to see you again. The last time we saw each other was at a dinner party that we were filming for my Netflix show Right, yeah, your house. I made Jennifer Garner sad. That's what I remember about

that dinner. Jennifer Garner. What was sad? Yeah, because she was talking about Republicans and ma reaching them, and I kind of felt that there was no reaching them. And I think I've been proven right over the last few years there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that conversation. Of course, we were talking about that then it's funny that the conversation probably would be exactly the same at this point. Yeah, we are trapped, I know, terrible times

we live in right, Yes, yes, very terrible. Well, I'm very excited to have you on today because Dan Savage, for those of you who are not familiar with him, has been the premier advice giver on his podcast, which is called Savage Love Cast, which is in its seventeen season. So we have somebody who really really has the skill set to answer questions not unlike yours, truly, I'm sorry, not like yours truly, definitely unlike yours truly. You know, when you look at advice in the dictionary, all it

says is opinion about what kutter should be done. The only qualification you need to give advice is somebody asked you for it. That's exactly right. And you know what my just vocation for even doing a podcast like this, Dan, is that I was giving unsolicited advice to people for so many years that I figure, why not have people

actually ask me questions so that it is warranted. Solicited advice is better than unsolicited advice, just like solicited dick picks are better than unsolicited thank you for saying that, so I didn't have to now tell me do people assume now? Do people come up to you whenever they see you, recognize you, expecting to asking for advice in real life all the time. Yeah, It's happened in restaurants. That's happened in airports. It's happened at urinals where the

person standing next to me recognizes me. That's my favorite place for a fan interaction. Is it right next to

a urinal? Yeah? Yeah, mine too. What's really weird is because not as many people are familiar with my face, but people have been listening for a long time, and so it can startle someone to hear my voice come out of a person as opposed to their headphones or earbuds, and so that, you know, I'll be on the phone with somebody and somebody in line our bucks will turn around because they're shocked to hear me standing behind them talking. That's nice to them for people to recognize your voice,

isn't it. Yeah? Yeah, it is nice. I like it. It's you know, it's kind of nice to not be recognized on site all the time because I'm not on television a lot, but it's still nice. To know that there are lots of people out there listening to my podcast, or after all these years exactly exactly after seventeen years, I mean, you were like the one of the original

people to have a podcast. Yeah, and I've been doing the podcast several cost for seventeen years and writing my dumb sex advice column savage Love that the podcast grew out of for thirty years. Holy sh it. Really Yeah, since I have been at this a while. Oh my god, So what every week you have to turn something in on what day? What day is your delivery date? Friday?

From the craziest part about writing a sex advice column for so long as I am now giving sex advice to the children of people I gave sex advice to thirty years ago before their children were born. So adults who did and exist whose parents I gave sex advice to are now writing for sex advice And it kind of blows my mind. That's funny. So how do you

justify giving advice after all this time? Like, how do you keep your information flowing so that you know what's going on in the world, and and and kind of like what what information do you consume, whether it be books or you know media, like, how do you stay fresh so that you are actually giving the most sound advice? You know, to zoom out for a second. And this is me to get a little airy fairy about my

format and genre. The the advice column, the original one in print was advice columns really pioneered what then blogs and the Internet made standard for writers in an advice column, you know, going back a hundred years, going back to a lander's column. For decades that I grew up reading, readers wrote back, and the columnists would print letters from people who disagreed with the columnists and engage in a debate. That then didn't become kind of standard for journalists and

writers until the Internet came along. It used to be if you were a writer in a newspaper, there might be a letter to the editor about you, but you didn't respond to it. You didn't engage with that critic. But in an advice column, you engage with your critics

all the time. And so the people I learned most from the people who keep me up to date and current are my readers and my listeners who are always getting in my face about whatever it is I may have said about what they agreed with what they didn't agree with, and there's always been this back and forth. You know. When I started Savage Love, I called it a conversation I'm having in a bar with my friends about our sex lives when we're drunk. And originally the

column was a joke. You know. It was a gay guy giving straight people sex advice thirty years ago. And I was going to treat straight people at the same contempt that straight advice calumnists like A Landers had always treated gay people with. UH. And I was going to do it for six months or a year. But then straight people who had never been treated with that particular kind of contempt before I really liked it. I thought it was really funny as opposed to really traumatizing UH,

and started sending me real questions. So it kind of accidentally became a real advice column in a real advice podcast. And how would you rate yourself in applying your own

advice to your own life? Well, you know, more than once, UH, my husband has turned to me and quoted me back to me when I haven't been living up to my own standards around being honest or using my words, or being direct or being g g G or my most I think one of the pieces of vice I'm proudest to fuck first, which is, you know, before you go out to dinner fun, don't wait till you get home

from dinner, because you're gonna be too fold to fuck. Originally, this is advice I came up with for Valentine's Day because on Debruary fifteenth, I would get all these letters fro people who didn't get funed on Valentine's Day. We were worried about the date of their relationships, and I would write them back and say, so, what happened on Valentine's Day? And they went out to dinner and they had wine and Coco Van and chocolate mouse and more wine, and no one wants to get fucked with a gut

full of Coco Van and chocolate mouse. Funk first, then go to dinner. And so when I, you know, my husband or my boyfriend's horny and they want to funk, and I'm like, oh, let's do it later, they're like, fuck first, Who said them? Who said the first? You did? Let's fun? Now? Well, the first of all, that's great advice. Everyone should suck first anyway, even whether you're talking about

eating or not. I feel like getting fucking out of the way right away with a new potential love interest will save everybody a lot of time because you have to find out what parts are working and what's gonna because some people are into some kinky ship and some people are not into some kinky ship. So it's good to find out what is happening in that arena before you even go to dinner, because otherwise that's just a waste of a meal. In my opinion, that's how gay

men do it. Yeah, well, maybe I am a gay man. I I the other night, Joe, my boyfriend, and I were ordering room service and I knew. I said we should suck first, because once we eat this, I'm not gonna want to suck. And I we had thirty minutes before room service came, and I was like, let's get this going. And I knew because I was like, we're in a hotel room. It's going to happen at some point, so let me get this out of the way. It was more of a formality. I don't make it sound

very mantic because it quite frankly, it wasn't. I was just making sure that I would be able to relax after I my cheeseburger, which is really important. Also, you know, primarily I give this advice to people about holy days of fucking obligation, like a day when you gotta get fucked or you're going to be sad or think something's wrong your wedding day. First, don't wait till after the reception. Stand at the altar with come writing down your legs.

That's how you do it. That's good advice too, because who knows what kind of shape you're going to be in at the end of your wedding. You're getting exhausted and ship face probably most often, well not everybody, but a lot of people do get shipped faced. And I get those letters I didn't you know, we got married and we didn't have sex on our wedding day, so sad, Well, yeah, you should have had sex on your wedding day. That morning before the wedding. Katherine, what's your view on being

too full to fuck? I totally agree. I mean you can. Actually, while you were saying funk first, I was like looking over here at my engineer who I am also married to, and she's like, yeah, absolutely, you have to funk before you go to dinner. But to the wedding day. Think my brother and his wife fell asleep counting money on their wedding day and never had sex. That's pretty hot there, I know that. Great, that's like a good reason the

second best thing. Yes, but no, totally agree. First, Yeah, I feel like that's a good rule of thumb to live by, especially if you're an adult. If you're a young adult and you're experimenting with sex for the first time, don't listen to what I'm saying. But if you're over thirty and you've had sex with a lot of people, just I would say, just get it out of the way as soon as possible, for more reasons than one.

And then you know, if you funk before you go out and then you catch a group and you don't want to suck again, yeah, hot, there you go, and then that's hot, and then you're over. Yes, then you're over delivering and you don't feel this sense of tension or you know, because oh my god, we have to funk when we got home. You already sucked and so you won't be tense about it. And then if you want to funk when you get home, awesome. Let me

ask you another question. Do you feel like since you are such a good advice giver and you're known for that, well, it's your career. Do you feel like when you take you your personal life into account that it matches and is commensurate to the advice that you dole out like you have imposter syndrome? Absolutely, Advice is easy to give and hard to follow. I get in trouble sometimes because I'm slow to tell people to break up or get a divorce that I'm happy to get under the hood

and tinker. And I think you've been with my husband for thirty years as well, and I think that being in such a long, long, long as term relationship, there definitely been times when I thought I should leave, we should get a divorce, and then I didn't, in part because it's such a hassle to break up, to separate everything, to get a divorce, and so I hesitated. And then you know, when we got to the other side of the crisis and we figured it out or worked it out,

I was glad that we hadn't. But there's definitely been a few times in my relationship where I was like Dan Savage would tell you, dance Savage right now, to get a divorce, and I know, because I sometimes find myself going like, oh wait, I wouldn't agree with this at all, with the way I'm behaving right now, I would advise somebody against that. Oh yeah, in all fairness to my husband, there have been times when I thought Dan Savage would definitely tell your husband right now, Dan Savage,

to get divorce. You are asked too, so and what books do you have you read that you would like to share that have had the most impact on you, advice or self help or you know whatever in that arena genre. I really think um Aster Parrel's books Mating in Captivity and State of Affairs, a book about sex in a long term relationship, Desire and a long Term Relationship. Those are the best two books I think anybody can read about sex and relationships. She's a couple's counselor ted talker.

She podcast to herself. Absolutely genius Aster Parrel. You know, one of her observations is that two desires to want and the paradox of a long term relationship is how do you want what you have which you already have? And if you want to try to figure that out? If you're an exclusive, committed, monogamous, long term relationship, a star parrel is really the best place to go, you know.

You raise something like I'm coming up. I think we're almost at our one year anniversary, my boyfriend and I and and it's interesting because it's like every time you start a relationship, it's like youth. It's like the saying youth is wasted on the young. Right you start a relationship, you really just don't believe it's going to happen to you, like that that feeling and those endorphins and all of the stuff that comes with wanting to someone, wanting somebody

and wanting them badly. All the time, you just fantasize about fucking fuck dinner. Nobody even wants dinner at that point.

You know, it's like the first two months where you're like, you lose ten pounds because you're so excited about who you're having sex with and having sex with them, and then real life starts to settle in, and then you gain that weight back, and then you get used to having that person in your life and you acclimate to all of those things, and everything everyone tells you becomes true.

You know, you don't have that ripping, roaring, raging desire anymore because you've become a union with this person, like you're a team, and the newness is gone. And it's funny that it doesn't matter how old you get. You don't believe that's going to happen to you, and it happens every time, and good advice should be realistic about that.

Like a lot of people live around thinking there's something wrong with them, something wrong with the relationship, something they should do or say to get back to that, you know, infatuated. I want to drink all your spit feeling of the first few months, and that's never coming back. And you have to figure out what in the long term relationship compensates, what's different and also interesting or valuable about that long term relationship, about the sex and the intimacy and the

long term relationship, and it's gonna be different. But the whole relationship advice industrial complex is selling often delusions and convincing people that you know, if you just buy this book or listen to this show, you can fix it. You can adjust all the dials and then you'll be sucking each other like you were sucking each other in the first month. And that's just a lie. So Dan, you really coined the phrase monogamish, right, and you and

your husband have been open for quite some time. Is that something you feel has increased your attraction level to your husband? Oh? Absolutely, and it's also something you know.

Esther Perel said that even if you're not going to fund other people, sometimes it will reignite your desire if your partner, if you see your partner through someone else's eyes, Like, go somewhere where somebody might flirt with your partner, and you'll suddenly realize how attractive your partner is again, and your partner will also feel affirmed and desirable, and that's important.

And gay men are really good at this because you know, most gay relationships aren't monogamous, and gay men also go to places where like men are. It's not that men gay men behave this way because they're gay men. Gay men behave this way because they're men and are just

like dogs. And to like go to a gay bar with kind of a sexually heightened a lot of erotic tension and see people who want to funk your husband reminds you that you want to suck your husband too, and you wanted to suck your husband first, And then you'll go home and suck your husband. I was funny you say that. I was having a conversation with my trainer Ben Bruno the other day and he because he's as straight as an arrow, and he was talking about

that show The Staircase. Have you watched that, Dan, I haven't yet, but I read the article is based on Okay, so the televised version like that they turned into a series with Tony Collette and Colin Firth. There's a scene where he goes to this pornographic store. Pornography store, I'm not I guess magazines, yeah, because it takes place like in the eighties, so he's like looking at a dirty magazine.

He and this other guy he's he's supposedly a straight, you know, married man, but he's clear he's sucking men on the side. He goes to this pornography store. There's another guy. They make eye contact once, then they meet in a back room and don't even speak. Like one of them is has his back facing the opening of this area and the guy comes in and they just start fucking. And my trainer Ben Bruno goes, I mean when that's so unrealistic. He goes that two men just

start fucking. I go think about what you're saying. Men are men, will fuck anything, and if you get two of them together, they're not going to fucking talk. The only reason anyone's talking is there because there's a woman involved, right, Straight men would do everything gay men do if straight men could, but straight men can't because women won't. And

why won't women. It's not that there aren't horny women out there who might be up for casual or even anonymous sex, but slut shaming and sexual violence and the risk of pregnancy and disease all followed disproportionately out to women's shoulders, which ups the opportunity cost for women of being sexually impulsive. Well, those things aren't necessarily a problem

when two men are going to get together. And I always like blows my mind when a straight guys like you gay men and your bushes and bathhouses so disgusting and now I would look at them and say, if I told you there was a building full of women I wanted to get fucked right now. Don't know your name or your phone number ever see you again. You're telling me that straight men wouldn't go there, that straight men wouldn't be lined up around the block to get

into that building. All the bathhouse a gay bath houses is a whore house staff by volunteers, and there's no parallel in straight land. But if there were, straight guys would go. Yeah. Absolutely, they're jealous. They're so jealous. They're so jealous of gay men's lifestyles because yeah, and then it's it's optional for gay men, like we shouldn't say, like all gay men go to I don't go to

bath houses. I have to know somebody's name. I'm very much my lesbian friends call me a lesbian, like I kind of have to know somebody a little bit before I couldn't, and then I couldn't. Like when I first came out and as gay as eighteen years old, my friends took me to like those dirty bookstores where people had sex in the back, and I was just like, it's dark in there, Like what if one of my uncles comes in here. I don't want to accidentally blow one of my uncles who could be closeted and gay

for all. I don't. So I was very squeamish and thank god, thank god, because because I came out at night, and so if I'd been like I'd probably be dead. Oh yeah, good point. Okay, there you go. Okay, Well on that note, Catherine, what do we have in store for us today? Oh? So many sex questions. We have perfects, perfect We have to put you to good use today. Okay, so forgive us in advance. Yeah, people are having a lot of sex, people are having not enough sex and

everything in between. But we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with Dan Savage and Chelsea. Okay, Dan and I are just going to head over to a bath thousand. We'll be right back, and we are back. That was satisfying. It was I really enjoyed talk and I enjoyed watching. Oh you're welcome, Catherine. I like being observed. Our first question comes from a a as a woman. Dear Chelsea, I don't know how to say this, so

I'm coming straight out with it. My husband and I just webb three months ago and we're not having sex. It's been about a month and we've had sex one which felt like he was doing it out of pity for me. He says it's because of arguments we've been having and that things will get better. But I have concerns. Firstly, I'm worried that this will continue for our prolonged period. It seems like every couple I know that isn't having sex started their dry spell this way. I'm also worried

that he just isn't attracted to me anymore. There have been a couple of times I've noticed him looking at other women lately. I trust him and I don't think he would cheat, but it's hurtful to see when I know we're obviously lack in chemistry at the moment. We used to be all over each other, and now he won't even kiss me. It's really hard for me not to take it personally, and at this point, I feel like I'm desperately vying for my husband to have sex

with me. It makes me feel pathetic. We've talked about it at nauseum, and it seems to make things worse and more awkward. My question is how do we get over this hump. I don't want to pressure myself or him, but I feel like we just have to do it before things continue on this dry path. Thanks so much for reading. I love your podcast. You give the best advice, and if there's someone that can help me, I know

it's you. Sincerely A Okay, well, Dan, I'm to let you take this from the top, since this is in your wheelhouse M D M A. And the weekend of the cabin might help, you know, I think it's actually I think it's giving it that the sex drive up so soon after getting married, and a lot of straight people have it in their heads, consciously or subconsciously that marriage means the end of fun, adventure, possibility, and that can really smother desire. You know, you see straight people

doing this thing. We're like, we're gonna have a bachelor party or a bachelor party, and what's being what the implicit statement of a bachelor or bachelor party is after you're married, no more fun. This is your last chance to have fun. And so maybe the husband, you know, thinks that because they're married now, the fun has to stop or the fund has stopped, and it's you know, marriage for some people comes with a lot of dear

oticizing baggage. You know, he now looks at you, is not his hot girlfriend that he's tucking, but his wife. And so I think maybe in couples counseling you could dig down there. But I gotta say, if at three months you're not fucking and you're having to get into couple's counseling about not fucking. I don't have a lot of hope for your marriage that this isn't a problem

that you should be facing three months in. If he has some sort of Madonna horror complex where he could suck his girlfriend but not his wife, that's work that he needed to do before he got married, when he was single on his own. Trying to do that work now with you there tapping your foot impatiently waiting for dick, I don't know if he's gonna be able to do it. Yeah. I would also like to say that that may be true,

like that is a that is a concerning sign. But you did mention that you've been arguing a lot, and I know when I'm arguing, I don't want to have sex with the person that i'm arguing with, Like that is not a turn on. And if you're belaboring the point about not having sex, that also is now to turn on. So instead of overly overly discussing something like ad nauseum, as you mentioned, I would say to really put a pin in the subject of sex and let things happen in a natural way and give it a minute.

Give it a minute so that you can actually naturally come to each other, you know, after a fun night out or I don't know what you prefer, like if you guys are mourning people or night people. Just let some time pass where you're not rehashing the fact that you're not having sex, so that there can be a natural coming together. Because if you guys already were all over each other at some point, then that's a pretty good indication that you have that chemistry and you can

get back there. But there was also something I mean, him checking out other women and you noticing that, Like I can understand that you're feeling slightly paranoid, and that's coming across in your letter, and there's an air of desperation in your letter, which is fine because you're being honest and it's important for you to be honest with your feelings. But I would really really implore that you have to take a step back and not make it

a mandate, you know, let it. Let let the conversations aren't working in the way that you're hoping they will. It's been this amount of time and you guys aren't being sexually active, so what you're doing, your approach isn't working right now. So you should do the opposite, you know, and take a couple of steps back, like I said, and wait until there's an opportune moment that makes sense. That isn't you like saying, hey, I want to seduce you.

You know, in this way, it's just like a coming together, and there can be physical touching in between that time, you know, like hand holding and stuff like that does have an impact on people and their closeness. You know, some people aren't touchy feeling and some people aren't, So you know that better than than I would about you

and your partner. But like, let those things develop and don't put so much pressure on the situation because as soon as you over lead, discuss and argue about a subject like that, it's very hard for somebody who doesn't have a reasonable explanation as to what they're feeling to perform. There's clearly something going on with him. I think it's great advice to put a pin in it the argument

about sex. I would also encourage you to think about the rest of the ship that you're arguing about right now. There's arguments that have been going on prior to the sex. One of the ideas I tossed around on my show A lot is the price of admission that there are certain prices of admission that you pay to be in a relationship with someone. Not everything can be resolved. There are certain conflicts you have to agree that you're going

to step around. And often, you know, when people marry, not just the husband having some weird idea that marriage at the end of fun. People marry and then think, well, now I have to iron out all we have to like fight out everything that we are in conflict about,

come to a resolution, solve these problems. And the real trick of any long term relationship is identifying the problems you can't solve and to stop trying to stop and you know, creating conflict about things that no amount of conflict is going to resolve and step around those things. I don't think anyone should put up with emotional abuse, physical abuse, neglect, to which itself is can be a

kind of abuse. But you know, if you're fighting because his socks on the floor, you're fighting because she doesn't load the dishwasher the way you think it should be loaded, you cannot have those fights. You can just reload the dishwasher. You can be the one who picks the laundry up off the floor and then look around and see, you know, the things he might be doing or she might be

doing that they're putting up with your bullshit. And so much to the conflict I see in LTRs, among my friends, among my listeners and callers is people having fights about things they could just go. You know what, it doesn't matter. This is a price of admission. I'm willing to pay to be in this relationship, and I'm not going to complain about it anymore or try to run it to

ground anymore. You know, my husband is kind of a slab, and we used to fight about that, and then one day I just started picking up after him and it was like, you know what, this picking up after him is a lot easier than arguing about and picking up after himself. Yeah, and it just remember, like, it's not a turn on to fight. I know a lot of people think that they get in fight and makeup. Sex

is great, but that's like a temporary thing. Also, if you're in a constant state of arguing, it's unlikely that you're gonna want to have sex with each other. So yeah, where are those people who mistake conflict for passion exactly. So yeah, so take this advice, put a pit in it, and if the situation continues in six months, then yeah, you do have an issue, and you do need to

go to counseling. But I would say right now to take the pressure off yourself and take the pressure off of him, and try to and just enjoy each other right now, and hopefully naturally this thing your sexual life will come back. Can I give one more piece of advice. We don't know how long they were dating before they got married, so it may just be a coincidence that they got married and then it fell apart. Maybe it

was starting to fall apart sexually. When you think about the sex you had early in a relationship, it was risky, like your adrenaline was pumping. You're getting naked with somebody that you barely knew. They could be an ax murderer,

you could be crazy, like it felt. Sex at the start is risky and dangerous, and risk is arousing sex, and an LTR the risk goes away, and so sometimes people mistake the LTR and they think something's missing in the partnership, and no, you're the same people you were. It's just like there's no danger anymore, and what you miss is the danger. And so you know, at the

beginning of a new sexual relationship, you're the adventure. There on, they're the adventure you're on when you're together ten years and you want to feel that again, that kind of risk, danger, adrenaline, those adventurous feelings. You've got to go on an adventure together.

You've got an engineer risk into your sexual relationship that at the beginning of your sexual relationship was just present, without any effort, without any intentionality, and so like, you've been together ten years and it's not exciting now like it was at the beginning. Of course, it's not Go have sex in public, Go have sex in a sex club,

Get out of your bedroom, get off the bed. But a different time, go to a bathhouse, get a cabin in the woods for the weekend and go funk and then take some M d m A and you'll remember why you loved each other. You should read Love Drugs by Brian Er, which is the science behind go to the cabin for the weekend with your LTR partner into some m d m A. What is LTR stand for? Forgive me for asking Dan? But long term relationship? Okay? Good to know. I was like, is that latent? I'm like,

what trying to hear out initials there. We can't prescribe molly to people or m d m A because we're not medical practitioners, but you certainly are free to do whatever drugs you think you want to do. So you heard that here first, and keep us keep us posted, please, we want to know what happens. Yes, thanks a well. Our next question comes from a Saila. She's here on the phone. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a thirty five year old Mexican immigrant mother of two girls, five and two.

My five year old is at that age where she's super curious and inquisitive. She's wise beyond her years, incredibly smart, and is amazing and expressing her feelings. I'm proud of the girl i'm raising, given how different my parenting is from the parenting I received in my childhood. I've noticed lately that she's exploring her body. I catch her sitting in awkward positions where I can tell she's rubbing up against something, and although I know she isn't doing anything wrong,

I know it's natural and immediate and irrational. Anger comes over me and I've yelled at her over something seemingly harmless to her. I do not want to confuse her, and I definitely don't want to shame her. I was shamed as a child and teenager and even as a woman for being sexual, and I don't want to do that to her. But I don't know why I react this way. I've looked up scientific articles I'm a public health graduate student to find out whether this is healthy

child behavior, and I think it is. But there's not much literature out there that I can find on how to talk to young children about their sexuality anyhow. I wish I could just talk about this with other women, but even that feels taboo. How can I overcome this reaction so I can be cool and collected for my child when she needs me. If I can't deal with this now, what will I be like when she's older and inevitably has a sex life. Hi? Hi, Hi, how

are you? I'm good. I'm very much enjoying this. Thank you for having me. I get this question, and some other people they're they're small child begins, you know, touching themselves, and they don't want to sec shame the child. They don't want to give the child hang ups. But it's important for your kid not to wind up in first grade touching themselves in a way where they will be

shamed or picked on or stigmatized. So the balance you have to strike is communicating to your kid that there's a time and a place for this, and this is a private kind of touch, and you're not to touch yourself this way in front of your mom, in front of a television, in front of classmates. This is a

private time thing. And I don't think that's shaming. It's correcting, and it's setting your kid up to avoid the potential negative fallout of not hearing that as a kid, not knowing when and where this kind of pleasurable self touch is appropriate. And I don't think that's shaming that you feel this anger rise up in you. That's something to maybe unpacked with a therapist, because that is kind of looking at your child and fearing that your child is

a sexual person. And one of the things that you know if you're the parent of of kids, and I'm a parent, one of the things you realize pretty quickly is that kids aren't sexually newter or neutral, that kids are already have a kind of I'm not saying kids should be sexually active. I'm not saying it's right for

anybody be attracted to a child. But kids have agency and some sort of sexual self awareness even at age five um, and a sense of what their bodies will be capable of later in life as adults, a dawning awareness of it. And it's your job as the parent to channel that to the appropriate time and place so your kid isn't attacked, scolded, shamed by peers, by authority

figures they may encounter outside the home. You want to have that in its right channel and have your kid's head screwed on straight about that before they're out there in the world moving independently of you. Yeah, I mean, or jerking off on monkey bars, which is what I was doing growing up. Actually, no, there weren't monkey board bars. It was a swing set with the metal poles in between the swings, and I would ride those to give

myself the feeling over my clothes. And I would ride those bars and then the recess bell would ring and I would be climaxing. So I couldn't go back into school because I was busy, And the teacher came out and basically told me that I had to stop rubbing my vagina against the metal posts during recess, otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to go to recess anymore. But so then I just found different appliances to put under my desk.

I mean, I jerked off so much in school between third and fourth grade with whatever appliance I used, pencils, anything, And I would never want to touch my vagina directly because that, to me was disgusting. But finding any other things to eroticize myself it was, you know, open game. Even at my parents dinner table, I would take a ladle and I would rub it in between my legs and I would jerk off while our family was having dinner, and nobody said anything to until my brother said, can

someone please tell her to stop? She does it all the time. And that was when I first got caught out and I was shamed, and I didn't masturbate again until probably I was in my late thirties because I thought it was so embarrassing. So shame, yes, shame could carry you a long way, go stays with you a long time. But a Sailah, the reason why you're having the reaction you're having is because your parents. You were shamed or whoever shamed you for doing that when you

were younger. As why, it's pretty much that simple. We perpetuate those things. Whatever you were shamed about, you feel shame about, and then seeing your daughter, that's coming out of wanting to protect her, you know, and everything that

Dan said is perfectly accurate. You want to make sure that she doesn't have shame around touching herself, but that she knows it's something that she has to do in the privacy of her own bedroom, and that she has to do by herself and not with anyone else around, certainly not any adults or other children around. So it's totally fucking normal for your kid to touch themselves. Everybody

deals with this, so you're not alone. And I would also say, you know, please start talking to other mothers about this, because it's not as taboo as you think. That's in your head and that's the way that you were raised. It really isn't taboo. Anybody who has a little girl or a little boy has experienced them fiddling around with their private parts. I would just want to add that you brought up the fact that you sometimes feel an anger rise up in you, and I think

there's two ways to see that anger. And you know anger that your your daughter is doing this thing that's sexual. But if you just shift your perspective a little bit, I think that can be fear for your daughter, and that fear is a very motivating thing for parents. You want to protect your kids and a kid you want to You know, sex is dangerous, sex is risky, Sex is scary. Sex is bigger and stronger than all of us. Sex created us. And to see your kid already in the grip or all of sex is to see your

kid in danger. And so you might help you to understand your emotions at that moment not as anger, but as concern and fear and not unreasonable concern and fear for your kids safety as a parent, to channel you know, this kind of touch which is appropriate for her age right now, in a way where it's not a danger to her, And to really understand that some of your fear anger is anticipating what sex is going to mean for your kid, for your family, for the risks she's

going to run when she is an adult, when she is an older teenager and becomes sexually active. So don't fault yourself for that anger, Just like, shift your perspective and see that anger is legitimate, motivating concern for your kid. I appreciate you saying that so much because I think you hit the nail right on the head. I think fear is definitely the you know, the back, you know, like in the background here, and I think they're selves. So a lot of cultural stuff that we're caring that,

you know in my family. Still even talking about it later with my grandma, she was like, do not say it's private, just discourage it period, Like, don't do it at all, it could be bad for her. And I was like, wait, like we need to change the way that we talk about is we need to talk about it first of all. And that's the reason why I even submitted my question. Just even talking about it. It's important to me because I look around and I'm like, who do I talk about this, you know with, And

I want to change the conversation. I know it's normal, and I've read about it, and I see her and I know she's doing nothing wrong, and I remember what I was being shamed, and I don't do not want to do that to her. So it's irrational. I recognize that on my part that it's completely irrational, but it just you know, boils in me and comes out. So I think it is the fear and the thinking that she might be in danger and having heard growing up

like conflicting advice about sex. Don't do it, but or you're gonna do it, but you know, So it's it's it was very confusing and it was very hard. Very late into my life. Did I feel like I came into myself feeling confident about me being a sexual being. So I don't want that for her, definitely. But but you were. You were shamed, and that was traumatizing for you and took your time to overcome. You're not shaming

your daughter. You're going to direct your daughter. You are going to parent your kid and help her channel these things in appropriate ways while affirming that she's allowed to do these things, that these are pleasurable things, and so you're not shaming. Some parents get into their head that any correction and direction is shaming, and it's not. It's a very come from a very different place. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And you, you know, like any mothers that you have a close relationship with that school, or any mothers that aren't at school with your children and just friends of yours that are also mothers. I would urge you to open up that conversation because you'd probably be doing a lot of people that favor, because you're not the only one that feels like it's not being talked about enough, and your intention of just wanting to talk about it in a responsible way and

not shaming your daughter is awesome. So you know, don't be shy about that. You know, that is a conversation worth having with people, getting different people's perspectives on how they handle the situation. You know, making sure your daughter understands it's okay, it's just a private thing. Take the butt out of it. You can do that. You need to be in your room. You know, it's a private situation. It's a private thing. You don't have to make it the way. You know. You want to stop the cycle

of what happened to you. You know, that's all everyone's goal should be to try not to recreate the trauma that had been impressed upon you. And you're already doing that by being this thoughtful about it. Thank you, You're absolutely right. Thank you for having me sure, Thanks Selah. How cool to have a mom like that who's so forward thinking and like understands what her own behavior the consequences that gonna have for her child, and is working

to take strengths to remedy that. If somebody just had told me in my family like what I was doing like I had, I would be hiding behind the sofa and I would be rubbing. I always did it, lying on my stomach, rubbing my pants underneath over my pants, but I would like have an ottoman covering the side

of me. Like I thought I was being secretive. My whole family knew that I was masturbating all the time, and no one said a fucking word to me, like I wish somebody would have just said, hey, that's something you want to really keep to yourself. You know, the time and the place, and the family roommate the place and differently, and the dining room table also was not the place so right, But that's our family dysfunction junction. We are going to take a quick break so you

can hear and add and then we'll be right back. Well, our next call is from Stephen. Stephen says, dear Chelsea. I said I'd give celibacy a go when I was twenty two for four years to prove a point, why what point? I did not fit into the gay lifestyle whatsoever, and struggled to fit in with that community based on

my relationship and marriage goals. Unfortunately, that started a shift in my life that continued for more than the original four years as planned, and as each As each year has gone by, I've become more and more afraid to get back on the horse, so to speak. Now it's been twelve years. Oh my gosh. I've had the odd hook up here and there every year or so, enough

that I can count on two hands. But I'm petrified of men and have no clue how to date or what a normal relationship is or normal interactions with men. The pandemic is also of no help. I've moved in with my godmother, which has made my sexless life even less sexy. Given that you're someone who spent quite a few years your legs in the air, I'm very jealous. Really, do you have any advice for me and my single forever which may also be okay? Stephen, and he is

here with us? Oh good, Stephen, Let's see you. Where are you, Stephen? How are you? By Stephen? We have our special guest Dan Savage is here today. Oh wow, that is special. Yeah, he's a gay man, so you're in luck. I'm well aware who he is. I've had my legs and there a few times myself. Well, thanks for having me, and nice to meet you all. It's nice to meet you too. Okay, So it's been a while, huh it has and uh and yeah, twelve to fourteen years.

I'm still trying to figure out the math. It's between that somewhere. So how old were you when you took your four year break when you decided to opt out? I was twenty. It's often the case that get you know our straight peers. My straight brothers were dating when they were thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old in high school, and when you're gay, you often don't start dating until later in life. You don't come out, And so when

we're twenty, we can feel like thirteen. And like I said to the previous car, sex is scary, and I can see you being afraid of sex, afraid of men at twenty and not having the same tools to handle dating and secks that even a woman of the same age who was into men might have. So I don't want to say you did something wrong by like pumping

the brakes there. So I think setting an arbitrary four year I'm not going to date or have sex with anybody may have been a bit much, um, and you denied yourself the kind of furtive exploring sexual experiences that could have been formative and helped you. But it's not too late to start having those, right. Well, I, like you said, I was young, and I thought I had

something to prove. And I thought, because that's a you know, in general, life is over sexualized, and especially in the ay world, that's sex sex sex, So I thought, I it's holier than thou and could prove this four year look at me thing, And that one sided with like a lot of trauma, so I was kind of hiding that and this would be an easy way to not have to indulge in sex to prove this for your thing. And then it just kept going on and on, and as the years go on, it just seems less and

less attainable. Stephen, Can I ask you a co question you But you did have sex before you took this little hiatus, right, I did just big hiatus, yeah, from the ages of eighteen too. And did you have a lot of sex in those years, not a lot. I had a health scare when I was one that medical industry did treat me very well, and that caused a lot of trauma. And it's already a hypochondriact, so it was just easy to just shut everything down from there.

So you know that stereotype, I should own it. Like earlier I was joking about, you know, straight men would do everything gay men do with straight men? Could not all gay men do all those things we associate with gamel communities, right, some of And someone says the gay world is all sex sex sex, Well, that's the corner of the gay world that gets a lot of press and a lot of jokes, but it also gets a lot of attention. If that's all you're seeing, that's possible

for you in gayland. I would say that's the only place maybe you're looking, and you can turn your face away from that. Some people are like, but if I put I want a date or I want i'm anogonmous relationship on my Grinder profile or whatever, I don't get as many responses. Well, you don't get responses from guys who wouldn't want to date you. You don't get responses from guys who were only interested in sex, and you aren't interested in those guys, so scaring away those guys

is actually good. And more responses on Grinder with a faceless picture, So that says enough about Grinder. Yeah, well yeah, but listen, Grinder is not the only spot there's I mean, I was just with my gay friend. I wish i'd know in the spot that he uses. What's the new one that everyone's using? Scruffyes, there's there's bunch, there's so many. I mean, there's myriad gay sites for you to be on,

and you should use your picture. You should actually put it all out there so that you are getting honest feedback and you're not tricking anybody, or that you know, you're setting yourself up for failure so that they come and see you on a date and realize they were had a different expectations. But regardless of all of that, like you did this, it sounds now out of it was born out of a traumatizing event that you had, So you're letting that event kind of dictate the rest

of your life. And now it's panic mode, yes, and you can't let and for that reason alone, you have to get out there if you put your actual face out there, which I think is smart. Put your actual not trauma. You don't want to make somebody feel like, Okay, I can't date this guy. Sith enough to take on all of their emotional burdens, but be honest about your

lack of experience. I often hear from gay men who are like, I'm really in experience, and I'm afraid none of these guys are going to want to date me because I'm so inexperienced. There are other inexperienced gay guys out there who may have taken a hiatus from dating, or may just not have ever jumped in just the way you never jumped in or you jumped out, who are looking at your profile doing well. He's an attractive guy, he's got great hair, like he wouldn't be interesting because

time so inexperienced. Lead with your inexperience. I'm nervous and I'm inexperienced, and you know I didn't. My twenties weren't like most gay men's twenties. And you think that's gonna turn some gay men off, Okay, it might good. You don't want to be with those gay guys. That's going to attract other gay guys. You have to filter those gay guys because you don't want to wind up with

somebody who's hoping to take advantage of your inexperience. Right, But there are gay guys out there who are similarly inexperience exactly, and you guys who will feel safe opening up to you about that because you opened up to them first, right, Because it all kind of boils down to intimacy factor in general. If I if I've never dated or had a relationship, another question is do I just start having the sex part. I can't imagine like dating someone for the first time and having this sex

thing in the back of my head. So if I should just like go out and just get it done and then look for dating from there. There's always when you talk about millions and millions of people, there's gonna be hundreds of thousands of exceptions. Most game and I know who are in relationships had a one night stand or hook up and then they just clicked and wanted to hook up with that person again, and then a relationship grew. But there are certainly gay men out there

who were, like, I want to date. I'm a demisexual. There's a term for everything these days, I want to get to know somebody first and then maybe move on to sex, and then you might make an emotional investment in somebody in the sex doesn't work and you have to end it and like move on to the next emotional investment and then see if the sex works. But it's worth it. I think it's worth it for you

to be honest. Listen, you don't want to traumatize yourself again, right, I think it's worth for you to be honest on your pages. Get on all those pages and say I'm looking to have make a connection with somebody. I'm not looking to go In this case, it would be not funk. First Dan, I would say, you know, I'm looking to make a connection with someone. I'm looking to take it slow.

I understand that that's not why everybody's here, but that's what I'm looking for and I would respect that in return, or you know, somebody to be in the same position as I am, because like Dan said, you're gonna find like minded people that also have little experience with sex or don't have much recent experience with sex, and take it slow so that you can have a nice experience for your first time re entering the scene and entering someone or getting entered. I don't know what your bag is.

You probably don't even know if you're a top our bottom that says it's been so long, But whatever it is, that's regard, you know. Regardless of that, you just respect yourself and taking the time and being honest and upfront with everyone so that there is no demand or expectation from them, and that they know where you're coming from, and that you laid it all out there, and then

something will naturally develop with one of these people. You will be attracted to one of these people, and they will eventually one of these people will be attracted to you. You know, it's not gonna happen like lightning, maybe right out of the gate, but it's going to happen. And you owe it to yourself to put yourself back out there because you don't want to let this experience that you had so many years ago to find you. Right. Yeah, that's true. And Stephen, are you in any kind of

therapy right now? Um? Not at the moment, but I was, and that's something that I should get into again. I had It's called E M d R, which is for anyone who has trauma in their past or PTSD it it was extremely beneficial, So that is something I should obviously do again. You say you live with your godmother. Yes, I've had to downsize my life a little bit, that's fine. Is your godmother supportive? Are you able to be out? Oh? Yeah,

very much so. She would be thrilled, same with my real mother, and everyone would be Everyone in my life would be absolutely thrilled to see me not alone. I'm glad you have that kind of support. I think that's really important. What you need to what you need to disinhibit about, is you think no one would want to date me for this reason my experience. You know, I haven't been a relationship before. There are people out there who will want to date you for exactly that reason,

or who won't care. We want to date you for other reasons, and those won't seem relevant. To stop disqualifying yourself, which is what you're doing right now. No one I want to date me. I'm not gonna put myself out there. I'm so inexperience. You're disqualifying yourself. Don't put yourself out there.

To be really honest, and people will come along. We are interested in you and and sometimes, you know, paradoxically for exactly the reason you thought no one would want to date someone else who's equally inexperience is to be Okay, we share this, and I don't have to be stressed

out about it. I don't have to worry about when I'm gonna tell him I have no experience because because he just told me he has none, And we can just be really honest with each other about that and then move on to see if we're compatible in all the other ways that matter. Right, Well, Stephen, let us know how it goes. Yeah, let's keep in touch with us, Okay, Stephen, and let us know, like when you start getting out there and you know, well, yeah, get those legs up.

I'll let you know when more than just life is fucking me. Okay, right, thanks Steven, Thank you, Steven, Bye bye, okay bye. Well, now we know that Steven's the bottom, I think, which is a fine thing to be. Okay, So what do we have on deck? Catherine? All right, So our next email comes from b. B is a year old female and her boyfriend is twenty year old male.

She says, Dear Chelsea, I've been dating my boyfriend for about five months now, and he really is the best guy I've ever been with in regards to the way he treats me and the things we both enjoy doing together. The problem is that my ex boyfriend from a few years ago gave me genital herpes without my informed consent, which really made me depressed for years. My current boyfriend isn't educated enough on it and it's freaked out by it.

We've only had penetrative sex less than a handful of times, and each time has been pretty awkward because he can't stay hard or finish because he's in his head. He always makes sure I finish, but I missed the connection that's formed when you have sex with someone you love, and it just makes me feel like shit, even though he says he loves me. How do I bring this up to him without it sounding like I'm coercing him and having sex with me? B How long did she say?

They were together? Five months? Five months and they've only had sex a handful of times? Well, okay, First of all, one in three people have herpes. It's very very common, and you can only spread herpes when you have an outbreak, which you'll know that you have. You know, and they're sure. There are times where people don't know they're having an outbreak, but as a woman, it's pretty obvious when you're having an outbreak and just like a man their penis, it

shows up on their penis. There's like a bump and a redness. So I've dated a guy who has had herpes, and as long as you're forthcoming about it, if the person can't get past it, then like, I don't know what to tell you, Like they have to get past it. I got past it. It was not an issue for me. I was like, thanks for telling me. You know, I get it, and that's all you can do is give him your honesty. So I don't know what to say

to that. I mean, I don't know how you can coerce him into staying horror are feeling more attractive if he if he's paranoid about catching herpes, other than giving him the education and and make and you know, looking it up for him and reading to him exactly when they are. The times are that he can catch that from you. Because you can easily be in a relationship with somebody who has herpes and not catch it from them.

You can be in a relationship with someone has herpes and not know it, because most people who have herpes aren't even aware that they have herpies. And unlike people who have herpes and don't know it, I would say to the caller, you can take steps to protect your partner. So you can take valocyclovia, which is an antiretroviral medication which can make you less infectious and make outbreaks less common. Is that valtras? I think so? Yeah, I think so.

That's what's its full name. And so you know, if I was talking to your boyfriend, what I would tell almost, Okay, worst case scenario, you can tract herpes. You're not going to die. Most people who have herpees have one outbreak and then never as beer an outbreak, sometimes never again another outbreak, and your odds of getting herpies if you

guys are taking simple precautions, are very low. And so I would say to the caller's boyfriend, like, you have to decide is the risk of herpes worth being with this person? And if you're just so paranoid that you can't risk that, have the decency to break up with this person rather than every time you have sex with this person making them feel terrible which is what he's doing to the caller. And caller you have to ask yourself how long you're going to put up with that? Yeah,

I mean, it's really not a big deal. It's it's not a big deal in my opinion. I dated guys who are HIV positive back when contracting h of E meant you were going to die in eighteen months or two years. And I didn't make them feel like they were nuclear waste or toxic. And I wouldn't have dated them and they wouldn't have put up with me as a boyfriend had I made them feel that way. I had to relax and accept what the risk I was

running being in that relationship. And that's what your boyfriend has to accept the risk and relax and be with you or fuck off, and there's no middle ground. I like that. Yeah, I agree, I agree? Or fuck off. Yeah, that's got this woman's boyfriend makes me mad, and that this woman thinks that it's something that she needs to fix when he's the one with the with the problem, when he's the one who has some work to do here.

You know, women are always the ones who are like convinced they have to nurture and tinker and if they just like say the right thing, do the right thing, they can fix the shitty guy. And he's kind of being a shitty guy with his dick right now, and like he needs to get past it. And maybe just sometimes you only learn about something like herpes after you date somebody with herpes, and that's what gets you past it. And so just five months in that you might need

to educate him. Okay, we will allow for that. But if he can't be educated or refuses to be educated, we can't calm down, can't relax, can't love you show him the door. Amen. Wow, well that was easy. Our last que sin comes from Brad, he says, Dear Chelsea, my name is Brad and I'm thirty five years old, happily married to my husband of five years, together for thirteen years. My sister lives in Texas with her three sons, along with the rest of my family there eleven eight

and six. My husband and I try to get out and see them at least once a year, or sometimes more. On our most recent trip, we quickly realized they had developed a new habit of calling each other gay. We've never hid from them the fact that we're married, love each other sleep in the same bed. However, we've never been a part of any serious conversation with them about

what it means to be gay. So my first thought was, okay, ship, they heard someone say gay in a derogatory way and are now using it like we all did back in the nineties. I think I know how to go about that conversation. Then I realized that they were actually using the term quote correctly, meaning you are acting gay, which broke broke my heart. My husband and I were so shocked and had no idea what to say to them. My relationship with my sister is on a fragile side.

We got into a major fight after I yelled at her kids point taken. It's not my place, but now I find myself in this situation. Her boys did this on several occasions in front of her, my mom, and my dad. No one said anything, so I started saying, guys, please stop saying that. You know what upsets me, and I've told you this before. I thought maybe that would trigger a reaction from my sister or mom or dad for that matter, but still no one said anything, So

of course the boys completely ignored me. My dad their grandpa is also gay. They have another gay uncle on their dad's side, So why has no one had this conversation with them? How do I bring this up with my family in a non confrontational way. I have no idea how to bring it up without making my sister mad. Sincerely, Brad and Alex. Suck your sister, Dan, Why don't you take this one. I already did fuck your sister, make er mad. Have a confrontation, screaming y'all, blow the funk

up that you're prioritizing your sister's feelings. Correct your kids when they insult you in front of your sister, defend yourself, defend your husband, defend your dad, and talk to them, and don't be inhibited by your sister's homophobic bullshit. And you know it takes a village to raise decent kids. And if a kid says something in your family, says something homophobic in front of you, says something racist in front of you, says something misogynistic in front of you,

speak the fuck up. Don't defer to the dumbest bigot in the room. When this instance happens to be your own sister. M hmm, yeah, she probably thinks the behaviors innocuous, but like, where has she been for the last five years? Like that behavior should be nipped the bud The minute a child is saying anything like that should be nipped to the bud, especially if you have family members that are gay, Like it's so disrespectful to have to be there and hear that. But I would lay it out,

you know, I wouldn't. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of results that come from a major blowout all the time. So I would lay it out in an email and just say just so you know, like this has been my life experience and how deeply offensive it is to not only hair your children talk like that when you have gay family members, but to also not say anything to them and leave me to correct them. What an onus that is? How can you do that? You yelled at me for trying to parent them once,

yet you want to be absolved of any parenting. How do you think it makes me feel to come over and have little children making fun of a lifestyle, like they're not going to grow up in this world and get away with that behavior. So there's a lot of points you can make in that email, but I think it should just come from a place of hurt and asking her like, where's the line? When are you going to say something to them? It's been established that that's

an inappropriate use of language. Calling somebody gay or telling somebody that they're acting gay is not cool anymore. And your fear is the uncle like worst case scenario is that you won't get to see your nephews or your sister for a while. If you stand up for yourself. Is that the worst case scenario here that you don't have to hang out with your homopublic sister and her now homophobic children who will one day hopefully apologize to you.

That is not a bad outcome if they can't treat you with kindness, decency, and respect you and your husband. So stick up for yourself and don't be inhibited by the fear of the worst case scenario coming to pass that you don't have to do. You don't have to see these people for a while. How would you have that conversation with the kids If he is going to approach the subject with his nephews easily, I mean sitting down with them and explaining, hey, I'm a gay man.

Your grandfather is a gay man. It's very disrespectful to cure you talking about that in terms that a you don't even really understand yet. These are little children, So the conversation with the child would be easier than with the adult because she's going to be defensive about her parenting, and she might think that you can't tell kids they shouldn't use gay in that way, because then you're gonna

have to have a conversation about gay sex. And if a kid is using gay in that way, well then you might have to have a conversation about that acknowledges the existence of gay sex, just as you probably had

a conversation with those same kids. Acknowledging the assistance of straight sucks because the kid they have already asked their parents where babies come from, and if they're old enough to be told that, they're old enough to know that gay people have sex for all the same reasons straight people do, except once or twice when straight people try

to get pregnant. You know, sex is mostly for pleasure, and some people are sexually attracted to members of their same sex for the same reasons some people are attracted to members of the opposite sex. And you can definitely have that conversation with a child who's using gay as an insult. I found my nieces and nephews at that age they are such parrots and they're just parroting the

behavior that they see. When my nieces or nephews have said something that to me is troubling, that feels borderline, and I have expressed to them, like, you know what, it's actually it's actually better to do things this way. It's actually better to be more accepting. It's it's cooler to be this way. They flip flop real fast, and they just because they're hearing a different perspective and suddenly they're like, oh wait, it's cool to be friends with

that person. Oh wait, it's better to not use that type of language. I would never do that. They flip up. We're all real fast. So well, Brad and Alex's best of luck and let us know how that conversation it goes. Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah, we'll take a quick break and be right back. Okay, Dan and I just are taking a quick bottom break and top break, and I'm the bottom and he's the top, and now we're back and now we're a sandwich. Excellent. Well, Dan, I hear

you have some advice you'd like to get from Chelsea. Oh, I thought you're gonna say advice you'd like to give to Chelsea. Yeah, And usually people will come on and ask for advice for themselves from Chelsea. But your producer let me know that there are a few questions sometimes that have you stumped, and you wanted to bring one of your stumpers on to ask Chelsea about that question. The question today comes from experienced. She says, Hi Dan, I'm a forty one year old bisexual female living in

the rural Pacific Northwest. I'm somewhat recently divorced and getting back into the dating scene. I keep running into this problem over and over. Where I match with someone, things are going fantastic, conversations flowing, and inevitably the talk turns to sexual compatibility. I'm an experienced woman, and I'm proud of all the fun I've had in my life. I've played safe and feel very fulfilled. If someone asked me what's my number and I had to slap a number

on it, I'd say eighties or nineties, maybe more. And every time I'm talking or texting or on a date with someone, one of three things happens. Either they drop off the face of the planet. And that's fine. I'm not everybody's cup of tea two. I'm no longer seen as someone who is datable, just fuckable. Talk of any dating or romance just completely drops off. But more often than not, this usually leads to conversations with gentlemen of their own fantasies, their own desires. But every time they

just drop off the phase of the planet. They're no longer interested in dating me. They ghost me. It's just done and gone. Anyway, Help me, Dan, I'm trying to figure out how I can be seen as someone who's both datable, worthy of love and romance, but also someone who is really great and bad with gobs of experience that I have to bring to the table. Help How can she be seen a worthy of love and romance as well as scorching hot sex while still being honest?

So I thought this would be a fun one to share with Chelsea, because sex with more than one person. Thank you for putting it that way, putting it so mildly. First of all, you don't need to frontload all of that information into meeting somebody on the first on the first date, like that's not necessary for them to know, just like it's not necessary for you to divulge your entire childhood to somebody that you meet for the first time. And it's not lying. It's first of all, developing a

connection with somebody and developing a trust. So if you want to date somebody, you have to get to know that person and they have to get to know you. And getting to know somebody means not frontloading every single thing that's ever happened to you on the first date. It's just unnecessary. You know, there's no intrigue there, there's no getting to know somebody, so you don't have to

come out with all of that. You just have to go on a date, like you're not auditioning for a job and putting out this kind of resume, Like that's not an obligation. You're not lying. You're getting to know someone, and in time, when you feel trusting and trusted, you can reveal more about your personal history and your sexual history, and when the time is appropriate. But that time is

definitely not in the first few dates with somebody. You're dealing with men who are fragile, and that is a generalization, but it's applicable to a lot of men. Men are very fragile, and while the right person will be okay with that information, there's no reason to give that that information away on the first date. Let somebody grow to understand you and respect you and have feelings for you, and then you can give out the that information if

it's completely necessary for you to do that. If you feel like you have to give out that information, great, But there's no rule saying that you have to tell everybody everything about your past, even somebody you're dating. You don't necessarily have to tell that person. You want to be respectful and you want to be honest, Like if you have herpies, you want to tell that person. Yeah, I've heardpies. But saying you've had sex with ninety people

just seems extraneous. And group sex and kinky sex all on the first date. Yeah, yeah, all of it is just better left for the person that is going to be able to digest that. My advice to her was to slow her role, and that's your advice too. Yeah, slow your role is great. Just leave it at that. Slow your role. And the thing about having a lot of sexual experience as a woman and a man, having a problem with that you're the caller is disclosing all of that right away, and then men are ghosting her.

And if she let a guy get to know her and then this came up and then they like had that conversation where they talk about, you know, their experiences, he may, if he's the type of guy who would gohost on the first date, knowing all of that, he may have to reassess his feelings and assumptions and prejudices about more sexual experienced women if he knows you better, if he knows you well enough to like say to to then question himself about the assumptions he might have

made about a sexually experienced woman having gotten to know you. And that's often what really helps people get past their prejudices when it comes to dating and sex is getting to know somebody and then finding out more about them and then thinking, okay, well, my you know what I thought about, you know, people who are HIV positive, what I thought about people who did or used to do or are doing sex work, what I thought about whatever,

what I thought about dating someone other therapies. I'm gonna have to rethink that because I have gotten to know this person, and of course you should disclose everything. Somebody has a right to know, so they can, you know, make informed consent before being sexually active with you. But they don't have to know everything right away. Yeah, there's no investment on the first date. It's easy, it is to reject someone if you don't like their lifestyle or

their previous history. And like think like Chelsea, if you were on a first date with a guy and he suddenly told you the exact number of people you've had sex with, all the different kinds of sex he's had with these people. Even if you were like into the at and your number was as high or higher, wouldn't you be like, that's kind of bad judgment. Like you obviously have no filter, and what you want on the first date is like a good time and to see

somebody has like a filter. Yeah, absolutely a filter. Filter. Slow your role and get a filter, yes, absolutely. Okay, Well there was a lot of sex talk today, Dan, I attribute that to your presence. Well, I really enjoyed it. I always loved sex talks, so yeah, I do. I love your advice too. It's nice, nice and straight. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to spend time with you. Again. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me or I really enjoyed it and you give great advice to Thanks Dan, I'll see you soon hopefully. Okay, Thanks Dan, bye bye. And if you'd like to get advice from Chelsea and one of her guests, please write into Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com