Hi.
Hello. This is Chelsea Handler Joy, Chelsea Joy, Chelsea Joy Handler.
Hello, this is Catherine Elizabeth Lah. How are you.
Oh, I'm good. I'm just sitting here in my bedroom with my big black lover, Doug, and he is so cute.
Now.
I came home. I was gone for two weeks. I went to my worka and I came home and he has this new thing where he just jumps on you and then puts your hand in his mouth with a light and he's not really biting, but he's trying to drag you. And I'm like, you better cut that fucking shit out, buddy, because people are not going to respond well to they I'm doing that. People who don't like dogs are gonna be scared, right, Doug, make sure Mobell tregged him to do that.
While in my absence, she's like, fol of Shenanigan's that Mabel.
Of course.
Of course. I was just listening to Alex Cooper's interview with Kamala Harris on My Jove in. I was so so blown away that she got that interview. I texted her right away. I was like, holy shit, So that's awesome, that's amazing. I love to see that.
Yeah, I also like to see candidates being real and normal in the modern world, like doing something like a podcast.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I like when they just act like normal people, Like you don't have to always be spouting Paul, like you're a human being. I want to see the human humanity in everyone you know and be like, Okay, but anyway, I've been spending a lot of time in my hyperbaric chamber because I'm a home for two weeks and I figure I might as well regenerate and rejuvenate. Or somebody told me the other day that my skin looked incredible, and I was like, you know what, thanks
for that hot tip. I'm going to keep going. I'm like, it must be the hyperbaric chamber.
So I was like sleeping like a vampire in your tube, among all the other things that I do to myself.
Are you reading anything exciting right now?
I did. I just read a great book. I think I don't know that it's out yet, because my editor sent it to me. It's called Like Mother, Like Mother by Susan Rieger. I read that. I read Cutting for Stone Over the Break. That is long and laborious, and I would not recommend that unless you're into you because he's the one who wrote the Covenant of Water Abraham fa Yes, yeah, I did just reread Many Lives, Many Masters, because it's come up so many times on the podcast.
I did much. I just reread that and then I gave it to my aunt because she could use a little spirituality booster. I gave that to her with her well bucher and that I dropped off at her house the other day. I said, start taking one of these a day every day. Please. She's like, you know, I'm not unhappy. I'm like, no, no, no one's saying you're unhappy. You just need a little bit of a moodlifter. I'm like,
it's just so that you're a little bit more optimistic. Yes, And she's like, I am optimistic, but I'm also realistic. And I'm dying. I'm like, you're not dying, you're just old. We're all dying. That's my dad.
He's like ever since he turned I mean, I don't know, probably thirty, but like literally every year he's like, I probably won't make it five more years.
I'll probably die by the time i'm fifty.
Why do people say things like that. I so either read or listened or someone told me that if we make it through the next ten to fifteen years, we're going to be able to live until we're one hundred and twenty. I'm like, no, thank you. First of all, I can't afford to live until I'm one hundred and twenty. Okay, I don't have that kind of money. You want to retire someday? Who the fuck wants to do that to one hundred and twenty.
I mean, have you seen old people? It's hard to get around.
Oh please, Well, apparently there's gonna have that. We're gonna be all these things to help us keep us young. But it's like I'm gonna spend most of my time in a fucking hyperbaric chamber. I already feel like crazy like a fox. Oh by the way, there are still tickets for Kansas City, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis that are coming up at the end of October October twenty fifth, sixth, and seventh. Anyway, we have a serious guest today. We have the professional today on the show No funny Stuff.
This was a recommendation from my friend Yanica. So please welcome Nedra to wob Welcome Nedra to WAB Thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you for having me.
I have lots of questions for you. I follow you on Instagram. A lot of my friends also follow you on Instagram, so I'm not sure who turned who on to you. But I read your book Drama Free, and I've sent it to a lot of people anonymously, just so you know. I like to just send books to people without them knowing exactly where it came from. But there's a couple of things in your book that I
want to touch on right away. First of all, your licensed therapist, so you have a lot of experience right with dealing with different people, different kind of dynamics and relationships. What I found very interesting, I had never really understood the term enmeshment before, and I was interested in you kind of delineating the difference between codependency and enmeshment because some of the examples in the book that you used
for in meshment sounded to me like codependency. So I want to be better at knowing what the real differentiation is.
Oh, that's a good one.
When I think of codependency, I think of us trying to enable some unhealthy behavior, and a person trying to rescue them from some sort of outcome, trying to manage things in.
Their lives so they will be better.
When I think of, you know, this enmeshment that we have in our relationships, people can be very healthy in their own life and very enmeshed at the same time. It's that couple that doesn't have any outside friends. It's the siblings who won't let anybody else in. Nobody has a drug addiction, nobody needs saving from anything. But there is no outside influence. It's just us. And so the enmeshment is really like we have no boundaries because we have nothing else besides what's in this situation.
So would you say it's like a little bit like isolation, like isolating someone.
Well, it could be isolating a lot of people.
I think you know you brought up Drama Free, which is about dysfunctional family relationships, and one of the things that happens in dysfunctional families is there is this immeshment around. We are the only people who can love us, right Like everybody else is an outsider, a friend, a teacher, everyone is an outsider. It's only us. And it doesn't
mean that those people aren't healthy. For you, but it certainly breaks up that dynamic and can point out some of those things that are a bit dysfunctional, and so for the dysfunctional system to sort of continue, we have to be enmesh.
Okay, because one of the examples you use for enmeshment, I think if I recall, it was about like getting accepted to a college that was far away from home, and your family desiring for you to go to college close to home, and you choosing to go out of state, say, and then having there'd be a consequence within your family about that, like how dare you go so far away from us? You're supposed to stay close. So that's a good example of enmeshment.
Absolutely, when we are unable to get away from something, even if we're going to this healthier thing, even if our family has taken really great care of us, they don't want us to leave. It's very healthy for people around a certain age to leave the nest. And if you're not allowed to do that, that can be problematic
for you. If you're not allowed to raise your children a little differently than how you were raised, if you're not allowed to have friends outside of the family, if you're not allowed to go on vacation with people who are other than family. Those things are problematic.
That very much sounds to me like an instance of a man controlling a woman, say in a relationship where they isolate them, right, and they don't want them to have any friends, They don't want them to do anything unless it's been approved. That kind of abuse, that kind of situation that most typically leads to abuse control.
Right, Yes, so it typically is a control tactic because the people we love, we want other people to love them as well. And if I am saying to you I am the only person who can love you, or we are the only people who can love you, I will pick the people that's not good for your sense of autonomy, like you don't get to you know, be at work. It maybe pick some people who are good
for you because they've already been picked. And so if I am saying I am the barrier for entry of anyone else, yes, I'm trying to control your life in some sort of way.
Okay, let's talk about counter dependency versus codependency. So would you say that counter dependency is basically the opposite of codependency.
Well, yes, counter dependency is the isolation of people as supports, as confidantes, as emotional companions. People who are counter dependent, they tend to function pretty well in life. They have this very strong exterior. They have a mantra of I don't need anyone to really do it yourselfers they believe in this philosophy of being self made, and they have a high ability to feel very lonely because we need
people in the world. When you are of the mindset that people have harmed you and the safest thing to do is stay away from people, it causes this isolation of I am the only one with me, so even if I can do it all, I still feel bad about having to do it all, even if I'm pushing
people away. So sometimes, you know, we'll see this in dating as the person everything is going really well, it seems like it's a you know, really great relationship, and then it's supposed to maybe go to the next step, and they start to push you away because there's too much closeness, there's too much vulnerability. So you see that a lot with folks who are counterdependent, or and you may see them carrying a heavy load and they are unable to allow you to help them. Sometimes with our
family members. This is the person who we don't see very often, the person who may not call us, the person who keeps to themselves, but they function pretty well in life, but they are very isolated from everyone else.
And is there a way to be counterdependent? Because my sister and I were talking about this term over the weekend and we were saying how we were both we both became counterdependent because our parents were so well useless pretty much. I mean they were around, but they weren't really doing anything. And so we were like, oh, we're both but we weren't. We're both very much involved in our family. We're not isolated from our family. So how does that fit in? Like, if you're somebody who's very
self sufficient, like I always feel like that. I'm like, oh, I'm all on my own. I've got to do everything on my own. But I've become quite used to that because that's how I grew up, Like I had to be self sufficient, but I'm not isolated from the rest of the family.
Well, how do you invite people in?
I've always have people around.
But how do you invite people in emotionally?
Because there's a difference between having people around and being around people and being able to show up in that space and allowing people to be there for you, allowing people to support you when you're going through something, not you always being the supporter, but really letting people in, letting them know what's going on. So you can have relationships and still not be evotionally available in those relationships.
So I would wonder if a person is counterdependent, how are you being vulnerable or not?
So coundre dependent would mean that you're not that you are being invulnerable or can you be counterdependent and be vulnerable?
Counterdependent and vulnerable with a small few, with a small few. Sometimes I'm just gonna live into that category.
I think that's true.
Yeah, with a small few, because what I've seen with that is people who are vulnerable with a small few is it is very small. I mean it's not enough to even have a party with. It's really like I have two people, and if something happens to these two people, I don't have anyone else. There's no inviting in, there's no more opening up because you know, again, somewhere along the way, like you said, like you know, my parents were useless, So I grew accustomed to doing things on
my own because I know I can do them. Well, I know things will be done, and I have not developed that trust for other people to do them. Now I can talk to people about my problems, but I don't really want people to get in there and resolve my problems for me. So I think there is some variation of how we're vulnerable with others as well. Sometimes
with counterdependency, people are very vulnerable after the fact. They they talk about things as they have already resolved those things, and not necessarily maybe as they're going through those things.
Okay, let's talk about the term. Is it alexathemia. That was a word I had to look up that I've learned in your book, So thank you. I love learning new words. So tell us what that means.
Alexithymia is where we have like this emotional restriction. We're not aware of what we feel. We almost can't tap into our emotions. Sometimes this will show up in people saying things like I don't cry, or I don't get upset about stuff, or I don't get very angry. Well, emotions are very helpful for us. Now how we express those emotions it matters. You can be angry, but do we want you to be angry and get out of
your car and yell at a driver. No, we don't want that, but it is okay to have some level of a feeling in your body. Ultimately, you know, people have to be able to identify what their feeling is. And with alexithymia, I think we see a lot of folks who don't even know what they feel. It's like, I don't know what I feel. I'm often confused about what my feeling is about this thing, or they're pocketing everything into you know, maybe two feelings. I'm angry or
I'm sad. Well, let's talk about this whole wheel of other things.
You might feel.
You might feel disappointed, you might feel confused, you might feel lonely. So being able to communicate your feelings, especially, you know, going back to counterdependency, a lot of counterdependent folks really struggle with being able to identify what they're feeling, and so it can be challenging in your relationships with people if you can't even show feeling and then be able to recognize those feelings and other people and respond
to it because you don't have them. You're like, I don't even understand why they're upset about this thing because that wouldn't upset me. Well, we have to be able to show up for people in relationships. We have to
be able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And you know, as a therapist, we use things like feelings charts and you know, mood trackers to kind of help you distinguish between a happy moment, of exciting moment, a sad moment, of this moment of that moment, because most people will give you like two things, but once you break it down, it can be hopeful to know that, actually I was enraged when I did that. That was a step beyond anger. When I responded in that way, I was actually very hurt.
I wasn't angry. Those can be very hopeful tools for you to be able to communicate with others and certainly to manage your behaviors.
Yeah, you talk about that a little bit with a couple that like, this woman was just frustrated with her husband and not he wasn't able.
She was.
She was ready to leave him, and he wanted to maintain the relationship and stay in the marriage. Yet he didn't know how to He didn't know how to communicate or what the problem was because he had grown up with a family of you know, parents who were divorced or had an unhealthy dynamic, and so he didn't know
how to express his emotions. And when someone is that stuck, and you talk about this also like having patients that aren't ready to make changes, you know, sometimes there's like a phase of there are several phases of going to therapy where you're curious enough to think that there is a problem. Then you go and you start talking to somebody.
But I know from experience, my own therapy experience, that it is there's a phases to when you're willing to accept and learn more about yourself and actually gain self awareness about your behavior. But when someone is so stuck and is emotionally unavailable and emotionally almost uneducated, right, they have an inability to express themselves, where do you begin? How do you salvage a marriage if somebody is that far removed from their own emotions.
Well, if that person is in therapy, I think a therapist would point out their feelings for them. There have been times where I say, you know, you sound very sad about your partner wanting to leave the relationship without that person being able to identify, Oh my gosh, I'm sad. I'm like, is this accurate or am I far off right? And then we'll talk about what that feeling looks like.
But if that person is not in therapy, I think sometimes when we're in relationships with people, it can be really challenging to push them to the point of change because people have to want that, and there are you know, there are people who grow an age who you know, never change because it's it's so uncomfortable. It can be so uncomfortable to move away from this idea that I have to manage everything or I have to keep things really private to I'm going to be an open book
with someone. For some people, they would rather that marriage in than to risk being vulnerable in that relationship, because that's way scarier. I have had some clients where it has taken you know, maybe years maybe for them to get to this point of being able to quickly recognize what they feel and act on it. Particularly in marriages. You know, a lot of marriages. You know, we kind of talk about infidelity, We talk about, you know, how
you communicate when people have kids. That's a really troubling spot as well.
I want to talk about this section of your Brook. I took a screen grab because I found this it resonated for a lot of situations that I've seen before signs of emotionally immature parents. So there's a list of One of the first thing says you feel lonely when you're with them, which is so sad. The relationship is one sided. They dismiss or minimize your emotions. They demand compliance,
and they don't respect boundaries. Also, they make their problems seem more significant than yours, and they are unable to hold space for your feelings or problems. So it sounds that sounds also very narcissistic. Is there a correlation between being like an immature parent because all of these things are also signs they think of narcissism.
No, they could be, but I think a narcissis is a little more strategic. I think an emotionally unavailable parent is maybe a little more aloof because there can be love there, like the parent can love.
You, but just not have those tools to really show up in a way.
Even if you tell them like the application of these things, they can't quite grasp it. So I would say what a narcissist is a little more strategic. They really don't have a desire to change. They are certainly manipulating a situation with an emotionally immature parent. There just may be a lack of understanding. Certainly they don't have a grasp
on their mental health. And I think that if a narcissist or emotionally available person was a client, the emotionally unavailable parent would likely be able to change and the narcissist would not.
Right, because it is that's typical, right. I remember asking my therapist if I was a narcissist, and he said, typically narcissists aren't asking for feedback.
Yeah.
I think sometimes we confuse narcissism with like being highly concerned or putting your needs in the forefront, Like that's not necessarily narcissistic. I think there is some strategy to a narcissist that maybe we don't understand about that dynamic where someone is strategically trying to manipulate you or make you believe something is happening that's not happening.
With a parent.
I think what's happening is that parent probably still needs a lot of parenting themselves, so being able to show up for a child is just out of their wheelhouse. Because they're really still looking for the same things that
you're looking for, which is a lot of nurturing. Kids lead a lot they need people to tune into their world, and some parents they just don't have those skills and they don't really know how to develop them because they're still trying to get it from you or to give it to themselves.
And what advice would you give to children like that that are dealing with an emotionally immature parent. How do you guide that?
Well, you can have a relationship with an emotionally immature parent, the relationship is not going to be ideal because you cannot change that parent. So you know, for instance, if you have a parent who doesn't respond to let's say your career successes and you're like, mom, I got a new show, or mom, I got this thing going on, and they're like, oh, okay, you may want to not share with your parent until you feel secure in the
way that they might respond. You may want to share with people who can really have a warm level of excitement and then tell your parent as a formality. But going to that person who has shown that they can't support, you know, looking for that support, that's going to hurt you every time. So the strategy for being in relationships with emotionally unavailable people is really to manage how you interact with them, your expectations around what they are actually
capable of. With parents, we often give them expectations that they can never achieve because you know, everybody is not prepared to parent. What is the stat like seventy percent of people have unplanned pregnancies, So you know, people are not necessarily equipped to deal with everything that you know happens with a child, even when that child is an adult.
Because you'll have.
A lot of adults who say, well, maybe I could understand that they didn't get it when I was a kid, but now I'm thirty, I'm forty, and they still don't get it. And it's like, why do you think that the aging process means maturing emotionally? It doesn't necessarily mean that. And you're talking about them maturing during a high stress scenario. They were raising you and working and doing all these things.
That's not the time to mature. So you know this idea that our parents should be able to get it at some point, it's like, well, what work have they done? What work are they doing? Are they listening to this podcast. Are they going to seminars? Are they in therapy? Like, what are they doing? If they're not doing anything, expectation of them changing is pretty small. And if you're into this sort of self improvement work and mental health projects and all of this sort of stuff, if you're into that,
then that's great for you. But it's certainly not something that is likely to rub off on a person who is uninterested, and certainly a person who doesn't seem to have a problem with themselves.
Okay, that's very interesting. Not everybody is mature and just because they are getting older, right, that's an important nugget of information to remember when you're dealing with a sixty year old moron. Remember that, everybody. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back to take some callers.
We're back, We are back.
Okay, we're back with that. You're chob Yeah.
So I wanted to ask about enmeshment.
And we get a lot of calls and emails from people who are having difficulty with their family, either because they have chosen to leave the religion that they grew up in, that they were raised in, or that they come out of the closet and their families have a poor reaction to that.
So I wonder is that a consequence of enmeshment Leaving.
A religion can be, particularly if you're unwilling to support your child and discovering the new belief, or if you are unwilling to even accept your child if they have a new belief.
Particularly one that they're not joining a cult.
You know, you have this sometimes like within Christian sex right like oh my gosh, you've went from Catholic to this other thing, or you went from this to that, and you know, people can have a lot of conversation around that, meaning that everyone in this family needs to be Presbyterian. Everyone in this family needs to be you know, this particular thing, and if you are not that we cannot accept it. So that is an example of enmeshment.
I would say that if you have a child or some one in the family who is LGBTQ, typically that is a value challenge in families that we do not believe or we do not support this thing. Is not necessarily we all have to be this one thing. I think that is a little deeper, and it goes to you know, if you are not this thing you end up here, so it you know, I think that's a really big thing in families, and I do talk about that a bit and drama free as to what I've
seen sort of backfire for families. I live in the South and so I do encounter a lot of folks who are, you know, perhaps Christian, and you know, their family does not believe in, you know, them having a certain type of lifestyle, and it is a rough road. And my suggestions there is always too one be yourself and two also recognize it. In those situations, you are redefining their idea of who they thought you were, and
they have to be able to process that. Sometimes they process it with you, which is terrible because who wants to hear it. And sometimes they find, you know, a therapist or someone else to process it with. But there is this period of time where you know, in some families they do go through this like value or moral crisis, even when they love you and want to be in
relationship with you. And I would say that that is you know, on the on the realm of normal to have this sort of like I thought it was this and now I'm starting to understand that you will have a different life than what I thought it was.
Yeah, And I think that's about It's very important to remember the processing time because for someone like me, I'm very impatient. I want everything to be quick.
I'm quick.
I take things in quickly and I and I can spit them back out quickly and I can comprehend the situation. But a lot of people do need a duration of time to actually process whatever for new information that they've been given. So when you do get a bad reaction if you're say it is you're coming out to your family and your family isn't as receptive as you would hope they would be, there is a period of time that you have to allow people to adjust to the
new information. And I think we can say, you know, I know personally, I can lose sight of that. And it's a good reminder for all of our listeners. You know, everybody processes things differently, and some people take a lot of time and some people take, you know, less time. So to be open and not looking for immediate results.
Well, I think it's very similar when we restructure our boundaries in families and we change you know, Hey, I know every year I come home for Thanksgiving, but this year I'm going to do this other thing. That new information can be very problematic. Changing anything when people are used to used to it being a certain way, is you know, a problem, and there is some adjustment people have to make on their end. We have the information well before them, and so we're already adjusted and we're like,
what's the problem. Like, I just told you this thing I've been thinking about for two years, why don't you love it? And it's not to be received in that way that people really do need some time to sort of figure out what they feel about it and how to show up with you.
Well, should we take some questions?
Yeah, let's go. I can't wait for her to drop some more wisdom, you know.
Let's start with a caller. Our first caller is Lauren. She says, Dear Chelsea. Last year, my partner of fourteen years ended our relationship and moved out of our apartment. It was an adjustment to take over full rent payments. My parents offered to let me move in with them, but I was determined to stay in my home and maintain my independence. I've received my lease renewal and the
rent will increase by a whopping twelve percent. I've been dipping into an inheritance left to me by my grandparents to cover any shortages. There's not much inventory in my area that's less than what I'm currently paying either, so I can't move. I've renewed my lease, but made a commitment to myself that this will be my last year in this apartment, after which i'll temporarily move in with my parents. This will allow me to pay down credit card debt I accrued while my relationship was ending and
I became depressed and did some emotional overspending. I'll build my savings and eventually begin looking for a more permanent home. However, I'm afraid that moving back into my childhood bedroom at thirty eight will tip me further into a depression that I've been fighting my way out of for two years, and I'm uncertain if my self esteem can take this hit. I've felt shame in losing my relationship and struggling to afford my own home and using my grandparents' money for rent.
That feeling will now be magnified by living in my childhood bedroom, and I'm scared I'll be trapped. Plus, the loss of independence is scary. How will I date as an adult from my childhood bedroom. I'm truly grateful to have the support from my family. However, I'm still finding it tough as I prepare myself for the emotional toll of leaving home and with it the chapter of my life I spent with my partner and for losing some independence in my parents' house.
Thank you both. I absolutely love this podcast.
Listening to your wise words of a fe to others is getting me through this tough time of my own.
Lauren, Hi, Lauren, Hi, Hi.
Lauren Hilsey, Hi, Catherine Hi.
This is Nager Chuab. She's our special guest today. She's a licensed therapist, so you're in good hands.
Hi o Hi, thanks so much.
Okay, so, first off, you have a year right left? I mean to prepare for this move.
Correct, Yes, I now have a year.
Okay, So isn't there a possibility that within this year you can figure out a different dynamic that won't make you have all of these feelings like finding a roommate to move in with or finding a different kind of I know you said most of the apartments in your area are the same price, but I mean you have a year to kind of find another solution if moving into your parents' house represents all of these kind of misgivings you have about yourself.
Yes, yes, sire, And I'm considering the roommate option as well.
And possibly getting an additional job, Like what do you do for a living? Do you have time to get another job or something that you could do on the weekends for ex income.
I work at an independent bookstore, and sometimes I have to work on the weekends, and that's not always easy for me to tell in advance, so it's hard to schedule a second job. But I have thought about looking into second jobs I can do from home, maybe that aren't tied to a schedule, but you know, data entry, writing, those kind of things.
Yeah, I mean that sounds a lot better. Like I would say, move into your parents if you were okay with that, but you sound like you're definitely not okay with that, And that has all of these separate meetings
to you. And figuring out this situation independently before you have to move in with your parents and coming up with solutions so that you don't have to move in with your parents are going to serve you a lot better than kind of folding into a situation that you're not looking forward to Yeah.
I think you're right, And part of why I decided to stay for one more year was trying to find, you know, the fortitude in myself to make changes in how I live, make changes to my budget, and see like, exactly what can I do? What can I do in a year?
Yeah? What do you think, Nedra?
You know, I wonder if you could reframe this from moving into my childhood home to moving in with my parents and reinventing that space talking to your parents about what living with them as an adult looks like versus living with them as you know, someone zero to eighteen. I think this is a wonderful opportunity for you to reposition yourself to be able to move out and maybe stay out for a longer period of time. But this
sounds like a wonderful opportunity. I wonder if you could reframe this really as a gift to be able to have parents who have a space for you to move into where you can revisit your finances and think about how you want things to be in maybe five years or three years or whatever.
The plan is.
But you know, if you keep thinking of this as like, you know, little Lauren's bedroom where she had this, you know, poster on the wall, it will be a terrible experience. You are an adult, and I'm sure your apartment looks a nice, lovely way and you can recreate that. You know, look at some tiny home stuff on Penrish. You could get really creative with this space and really maximize where
you are at this point. You'll have more more discretionary income to hang out with your friends, you might be able to do some of that frivolous spending that you were talking about, and you can certainly buy as many books as you like. So this is really to me, it's like, will they take more people in this house, because it's a wonderful opportunity to reposition yourself for a better situation in the future.
Lauren, I'm going to tattle on you a little bit, but this is something that came out when we were having our sort of pre interview call. You know, I know, the breakup happens like eighteen months ago or so, and you're still in contact with your ex and like hanging out. I know that's been sort of difficult for.
You guys and to me with that, and like having this.
Extra year to sort of make a decision about moving in with your folks. It feels like maybe there's a bit of like a things are moving a little bit slowly, and I wonder, at Needra if you'd have some advice as far as like boundaries there with the ex, if it's okay to keep seeing him, if it's very painful for them, or what are good sort of next steps for Lauren.
Well, I think we think about life is like this upward progression of stuff, and if we go back to some period in life, it's like a disaster. It's like go back to school, go back to my parents' house, go back to my ex. When an actuality, maybe everything is just kind of fluid and we are moving in and out of situations, and maybe this is a time with your ex where you need to evaluate how the relationship that you're establishing with your ex now is adding
any value to your life or not. Is it putting you more in this space of oh my gosh, we should have been here with things, or is it like this is wonderful companionship. So you know, it's not necessarily bad to have a relationship with your ex, but what is the meaning of the relationship, How is the relationship impacting how you see yourself. Those are important things to think about as you're continuing to connect with this person.
Yes, thank you. That all sounds like so many things I need to think about. I think we've had blurred lines over the nature of our relationship, him not wanting to put a label on it, and having some of his stuff still on my home. It definitely at times, I'm not really sure what we're intending. So good things to think about.
Yeah, I mean all different and lots of different advice to think about. I mean a lot of different perspectives, or at least a couple of different perspectives. But do you feel like relation to your ex that you guys are in a do you feel like it's a healthy dynamic? What you your communication with him and your relationship with him as it stands today?
You know, I'm not sure. The last time we spoke, he expressed a lot of self loathing on his part for having and died the relationship and not knowing why, and listening to him talk, I just kept thinking, you know, like he's not in good working order to start up again. You know, he needs to love himself and I want him to do that. And it's you know, at times I do feel selfish, like think, oh my gosh, he you know, he's second guessing this, or he's not sure
why he did what he did. Maybe we'll go back. But I do worry that he might be returning or thinking about returning as a way to kind of boost his self esteem and not have the guilt for ending the relationship.
You know, I'm less concerned about what he's doing and what you're choosing to do, Laurene. I wonder what do you want in this dynamic? I hear a lot about I think he's doing this and it's probably like this, and it's like, well, this is your life. What type of relationship do you want with a person if you're dating. I don't know if you consider this dating, But if you're dating a person, what do you.
Want that dynamic to look like? And is this it?
Yeah, thank you for reframing it that way. Yeah, right now, it's not it.
So maybe this is just companionship for now, and whatever his desire is for the relationship, it doesn't override what your desire is for a relationship. So if you want to go to the movies with this fellow, that's fine, But what you're looking for is not what he's offering. So just being clear about that can be really helpful.
It can help you draw those boundaries of I need you to get your stuff out of my apartment in thirty days, right, because you know, if I'm just if we're just companions and we're spending time together, maybe in that type of relationship, I don't allow myself to be a storage facility.
Right, So you think of what that looks like.
Like, Okay, so we have some sort of relationship, but what would the boundaries for this type of relationship be, right?
We haven't really put boundaries on it at all, and definitely need it definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it sounds like you definitely need to implement some boundaries in all of your life, you know, like to decide what you want to do, Like if you're going to go move in with your parents, commit to making that a really positive situation. And if you're not going to commit to figuring out a way to make that a really positive situation, because you're in a gray zone. So hopefully some of this stuff that we've talked about today will help you.
Yeah, it is, it is so helpful. Thank you all three of you. This is this is really wonderful.
Okay, well great, Well.
Keep us posted on what happens with you.
Okay, Lauren, pick up drama free read some There's some stuff there that will apply to you for sure.
Oh we'll do all.
Right, Thanks Lauren, Thank you, Lauren, thanks so much. Our next email and this is just an email, so he won't join us. But this comes for from Chris. He says, I'm a gay man in my early thirties, the youngest of three, and this involves my sister, the middle child, who's four years older. Almost ten years ago, after graduating college, I enrolled in graduate school. My older sister, after doing nothing for a few years in her twenties, enrolled two.
I initially thought it would be great to have her with me during what was sure to be a stressful few years, and I quickly made a tight knit group of friends, three guys and three girls. Toward the end of grad school, my sister became increasingly close to my friend group, despite having made her own friends during our time in school. Eventually, I finished grad school and moved
to a big, fun city one hour north. I was excited for a fresh start to be whoever I wanted, make gay friends and live as an outgay man for the first time in my life. Six months later, my sister moved to the same city as me. I quickly made gay friends and made up for the fun I didn't have while in grad school. Before I knew it, I had so many gay friends and was having a blast. But soon my closest friends were becoming my sister's close friends.
I realized she would meet them in passing and then DM them to hang out.
Now, while this might not have.
Been inherently wrong, it felt suffocating to me. Soon I'd show up to gay friends' houses and she'd already be there. She'd cook dinner for my friends when I wasn't around, and she even once went on a trip with a few of my friends and I didn't find out about it until later. Shouldn't she be busy making her own friends and having her own life. I know the importance of family and how much you talk about sisterly love.
I love my sister always, but I do not think that, just because we're siblings, that my sister has allowed carte blanche access to my life, especially when I've expressed wanting boundaries to have some things for myself. Am I wrong for feeling this way, Chris.
I don't know it. Does that sound like enmeshment?
That's right, It definitely sounds like immeshment.
And I'm thinking here that Chris could do a better job of not introducing his sister to his friends. There are some things, it sounds like that need to be private, because if he's expressed that I want my friends to be my friends, please do not call them, please do not. There is something sacred that he needs to keep in place that doesn't involve her, because she's not really honoring this request to have these you know, separate relationships or
you go find your own people. Doesn't sound like she's going to do that from city to city, from you know, life event to life event. She's really latching one. And so he will have to be the person to say, I will not invite you to this thing. I will not introduce you to these people, so she cannot continue
to have these relationships. You know, I think it could be very hard for your friends to meet your sister, and she's a very lovely person and to say to her, hey, we can't talk anymore because i'm your brother's friend, Right, That's a really hard thing to say. But it might be something that he needs to talk about with everyone in his life that Hey, I'm in this situation with my sister. I love her dearly, but I'm really trying to help her meet her own people. She has this
history of really latching on to my people. So if she DMS you, you could just let her know that we've had this conversation. Sometimes with our boundaries, we like to say things once and give people the chance to do something. And then after we say it once and we say it twice, we have to do something about it. We have to start to issue some sort of consequences. The consequence of this would be eliminating her from social things, so she no longer has that opportunity.
You know.
Also, in a very loving way, you could, you know, hey, have you looked into book clubs?
Hey?
You know, I work with this lady who's really cool. It says like you all would be wonderful friends. Helping her meet some people could be helpful, But ultimately you will have to take things into your own hands where you say I can't even include you anymore, because I have learned the hard way over and over that you will start to absorb these things.
I'm doing as your own.
But this woman, the sister, sounds like she has absolutely no boundaries. I mean she's following him from city to city, is hanging out with his friends. I mean, she's not.
Going to take that.
Well. Obviously, we already discussed people having boundaries set that haven't had them before and their bad reaction to them. So how would you deal with someone who's going to have a hostile reaction to him trying to set a boundary, because I would disagree. I don't think it's up to him to talk to his friends about it. Like this is a her issue, you know, Like I have a lot of friends that are just nice enough to my family that they would hang out with them as a favor.
So like he has to go around and basically tell all these people to stop doing it. I mean, I feel like it's a her problem, not is his friend's problem.
Well, I agree with you. I think it's her problem.
But I think if he has spoken to her, he may want to try something different. Speaking to the friends is just one way to to address it, and other people may not feel comfortable set in that boundary. That's why I say a lot of it will be not including his sister in on certain information or including her in these friend gatherings and social events where she has
the opportunity to latch on to other people. She can't DM anyone that she doesn't know about, she can't invite people on vacation if she's never met them, and it can be known that I will not mix my friends with you anymore. And she is entitled to have whatever reaction. But it sounds like, you know, the letter writer here
has a really big, important reaction as well. I meant the letter was written to say, I'm having this really big issue, so she can have whatever response she's going to have, and I think the execution of it is, I have to exclude you from certain things as a consequence of you not honoring the boundary. Because the solution is not for her to start to do these things because she hasn't done them. She has very poor boundaries.
It is not really anyone's job to fix that, but it is, you know, perhaps his job to make sure that his boundary is honored.
I feel like, also if you tell your friends, like if you do meet my sister, like she's a little bit clinging, she like tries to hang out with all my friends and sort of like with an eye roll, they'll they'll kind of get the gest right.
They won't want to hang out with her.
I think, well, yeah, I mean, but it's I feel like the issue is her. You know, she used to like cultivate her own friendships and her own relationships. Yeah, I mean, And it's hard to hear from a family member. I don't want you around all the time, you know, right, So it's like I just am thinking about like what it would feel like, you know. She thinks, probably like, oh, this is great. My brother and I have all the same friends. We're super close, we do everything together. His
friends are my friends. So it's gonna be like a real loud thud when she finds out that's not the case.
Yeah, but yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with a question to wrap up.
Okay, So we'll take a break and we'll be right back to wrap up with Nedra.
And we're back, and we're back, and I have one last quick caller for us. So Allison is calling in. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm adopted. I found my birth mother more than twenty five years ago, and my birth father at the same time. Over the past twenty five plus years, I've built great relationships with my birth mother, my half sister, adopted sister, cousins, etc. I've enjoyed those relationships immensely. I met my birth father once and have
no relationship with him. My question is do I approach my four half brothers on his side, his sons, who he's told me have no idea I exist, and let them know they have a half sister out here before they or I start dying. And we entirely missed the chance to meet. My adopted sister found her birth family and is loving having two new brothers. She's very encouraging of me to reach out to these people. But I'm on the fence. What do you two think? Should this family secret blow up or stay dormant?
Allison, That's a tough one.
Yeah.
The other thing that she mentioned is they all live kind of in the same area and she's worried about her kids and their kids like meeting and volume lo.
Hi, Hi, Hi, Alison? How are you? Oh?
Wow?
Thank you, Chelsea, how are you?
I'm great. This is Nedra towab our special guest today. So you've discovered some of your family members and not all of your family members CORP.
I've known my birth mother and father for thirty years. I've had a relationship with my birth mother and that side of the family all this time. I have never had a relationship with my birth father, and he has four sons whom I have never met, nor do I believe they know about me.
Okay, what do you think ndra about this?
I have a question here, who's secret is this?
It would be my birth father's secret.
Okay, why do you feel the responsibility to keep someone else's secret?
Is a very fair question, And I don't know. My grandmother who raised me, basically said she was very old school, and she's like, don't you ever embarrass him by coming out and you know, telling his kids about you. But my other my adopted sister, has met her family, and she's like, who cares. He's an old Like who cares? Why do you care so much? And I don't. I don't know, I shouldn't, I suppose, but I'm here to hear your feedback, so let me know.
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of shame management, Like I'm I'm going to manage his shame by not allowing this thing to come out. That would make him feel some sort of way and you know, be put in position to have certain conversations and confrontations and this sort of thing. So I will try to make him feel comfortable by keeping this secret even though it's not my secret.
Yep. That about sums it up.
And also you can easily just reach out to them and like leave the ball in their court. You know, you're reaching out to them, you give them the information, I'm your half sister, this is what happened, and then you're covering both. I live in the same community, right, is it the same town, same community.
A northern California fish.
Yes, you all live in northern California.
We do.
Yeah, So okay, I live in this area. And it's totally up to you if you guys, because that way, you're kind of accomplishing all of the things you need to accomplish. You're not holding anyone's secret, you're not managing anyone's shame, and you're doing outreach, you know, and actually taking a step towards meeting them. And then it's in their court if they want to meet you. You know, you don't want to force that on anybody. If they're interested, great,
and if they're not interested. Okay, well you tried, right. I mean, there's no harm, no foul really, and I agree. I mean, who cares about your birth father and his feelings like that? You have your own life and this is your decision.
Yeah, And it sounds like you owe him very little, like he seems like maybe he was a sperm donor basically, and you know here are yeah, exactly exactly. So I don't think you owe him much.
Do I give him a chance to tell them ahead by letting this other cousin know that this is my plan in like thirty days, I'm going to come out and reach out to them and give him the chance to come clean ahead of time. Or do I just lay it up and let the chips fall where they may.
Well, he's had thirty years to tell them, true, that's a very long time. I don't know if he needs thirty more days understood.
Yeah, it's like you don't really owe him anything. That's another courtesy.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
It's just so tied up in this whole, like, don't embarrass him, Like I don't know why he would be embarrassed. It was a mistake thirty years or fifty seven years ago.
Now, Yeah, and there's not a lot of time. I mean there's I don't sorry, it just sounds so morbid. It's not that there's not a lot of time left, but like enough time has gone by, you know, like sure to avoid it. And you're saying that your grandmother said that to you, you know, don't embarrass him. And there always sentences that some adult has said to us that stick with us for the rest of our lives,
that hold such little meaning. It's in a moment where they're saying something and sometimes they don't even know what they've said, or they'd have no idea how hurtful what they've said is. I can think of a couple of sentences my father said to me where I was like, I will never ever forget those two sentences. And I know he would probably want to take that back if he could, so I wouldn't put so much value in what someone said to you about another person.
And if your grandmother could speak now, she might have something different to say about the situation. I mean she spoke from a place of being highly concerned about him and less concerned about you.
And seeing how.
You've struggled with this, probably over the last thirty years I think is you know, it's fair to say that perhaps she misspoke and your loyalty has been to her, But is she still alive? No? Okay, So that loyalty that you had with her, you know, it sounds like you've transferred it to your dad and you haven't even talked to him about this for him to say that there's any embarrassment or you know, any of these things
that she assumes that he might feel. So it's you know, it's a lot of hearsay, and sometimes this is the thing that's needed to break situations open. It might explain a lot about who he is to his other children, like who knows. So I don't know if keeping this secret is something.
That will feel good to you.
Yeah, I love what you said about you know, she might have something different to say now because it was also probably a very different time culturally absolute when she said that, right, it was like back then it was this big, you know, shameful secret if you had a child out quote unquote out of wedlock.
But you know, things are different now.
Yeah, all right, all right, ladies, Okay, I guess I'm taking a plunge.
Yeah, lady, go for it. Report back. Let us know how that works out. Okay, well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for all these wisdom pieces. I loved your book. I hope all of our listeners get it. And do you have another book?
Yeah?
I have.
I have a few books.
I have Set Boundaries Fine Peace, I have Drama Free, and I have one coming out consider This that will be out in October.
Okay, greatly exciting. Okay, well, thank you so much for being here. Ndra.
You're welcome and have a great day you as well.
Okay, bye, listeners, we'll here, we'll hear you and see you next week. That's from you to us, not the other way around. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have you guys, I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and Kansas City, and then I will be in Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater on November eighth, and I have tickets on sale throughout
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