Talking Dateline: The Gorge

Hey it's Katie. Kate Snow, NBC News Anchor and host of This month, Demi Lovato is my guest. The global superstar tells me that she is the happiest she's ever been right now. Demi opens up about starting in hospital. The journey to the top and this was an honest conversation about the first time. Hope you'll listen and follow the I'm Craig Melvin. Look at the world that It's a really fast- Glass half full with On YouTube and wherever you get.

Hi everyone, it's Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking dateline. I am joined by Andrea Canning to discuss her episode The Gorge. Hey Andrea. Hey Blaine. Okay, if you haven't seen this episode, you can watch it on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline Podcast feed, and then of course come right back here. Later we'll have an extra clip from Andrea's interview with private investigator Andrew Waters about the rental car Harold and Alice drove that fateful day in the Taroko National Park.

Park. And then later we will answer some of your questions from social media. All right, let's talk Dateline. Before we get into our conversation, just give us a quick recap about what this episode entails. Yeah, so this episode is, you know, every family's worst nightmare where a text comes in saying, Do you know where Alice is to Grace, the sister, she's she's missed two tutoring sessions. um, with my child and, you know, Grace had no idea that Alice was missing. Once they start looking

For Alice, they first of all, she's moved out of her her her apartment. Sh then they found a new apartment. There's a sign on the door. Welcome home. I love you. Well, who's this who wrote this sign? Then they find out that she's secretly gotten married to an older man who's this. Genius.

um who ho holds all these patents in Silicon Valley and um and then they find out that they had gone on a business trip to Taiwan. Um her husband Harold had come home but Alice had not. And that began the search for Alice. Where was she? Um, and of course, the more they looked, the more they realized she was probably no longer living. And the FBI was not able to formally really investigate Harold and arrest him, you know, on suspicion of murder.

There's a warrant out for his arrest in Taiwan. They want to bring him in to to question him more. Um, but because this happened in Taiwan, there's no extradition with the United States. Um, the family went after Harold in a civil court. And they won. The jury found him liable for the death. Of Allen. He has not been criminally charged.

I think before we jump into this episode, I have to say that you had me from the very first shot. I was like, this is gorgeous. What is the scenery? Where are we? I mean, I was pulled in immediately. I think it has to win the award for like best. most picturesque dateline shoot location. Yeah. I mean I've I've been on some pretty cool locations for dateline. You know, I was in Zambia, Virgin Islands, um, which are amazing places as well, but this was really

something special. I mean, I I felt like I was in a movie. Um and at one point, you know, we drove two hours up the the mountain in that park. And and we still weren't even at the very top. It was incredible. And just how how like the landscape changed, you know, from the time you got in until you you know, two hours up.

It was a different temperature. It it was freezing. It was I felt like I was in the enchanted forest. Wow. Um so yeah, I mean the marble the marble cliffs and the gorge and the the river, you know, running I think there were two rivers running through it. um the vegetation, the clo we were in the clouds, you know, at the top. So for me and I'd never been to Asia before. So to to go not only to Asia but then to go to Tarocko Park. um was really s spectacular.

And I understand I like you said, this was your first trip to Asia. You had some interesting occurrences, especially on the last night. Tell me about that. Oh my gosh, yes. Um so we were all out to dinner. And we had the crew. It was, you know, cause it was our our last night altogether. And we're sitting there and all of a sudden the table starts shaking like crazy. Glasses, you know, moving plates.

And it takes you a second to register what's even happening because you're so not used to it. It was an earthquake. Oh my god. And it was it ended up being a five point seven on the on magnitude earthquake um you know on the rick. Yeah. I I mean yeah, and uh they had and what was really interesting was um the park, Taroko Park had had an earthquake a couple of years earlier.

So everywhere we went in the park there were workers, whether you know, still where they're they were fixing roads, um, all kinds of bridges were closed. Wow. Uh trails were closed. Um ever it really did a lot of damage this this earthquake in the park. Um

But what was really kind of amazing was w we had gone to a monastery in the park, which was beautiful. It had a giant, you know, gold Buddha outside and um The monastery, which is right in the middle and on this really steep hill or mountain, uh was untouched. By the earthquake. That's a beautiful story. Wow. You know, it's so interesting. I think just as you were rattling off the places that Dateline has sent you for different stories.

People always ask us in our jobs, like, oh, do you get to go to amazing places? And sometimes, no, not really, uh, to be honest. But a lot of times you You do You know, I think that my first trip to Asia was actually on assignment before I joined Dateline but

covering news um in Singapore. Um nice the Trump Kim Summit in twenty seventeen, right? And so that was my first time going to Asia and I went to to cover news and it's always such a a An honor and kind of a privilege when you get to see different parts of the world that you otherwise wouldn't go through this job. Right. And you know, going on safari, you know, to Zambia, I mean, that was a dream to see something like that. I mean, the only sad thing is the reasons.

that for d for dateline specific, um, you know, the reasons we go to these places are not happy reasons. Um, you know, it's usually a mystery. There's, you know, been a murder, um, which, you know, casts sort of a bit of a shadow on it, but Um at the same time you can't help but take in the beauty.

Absolutely. This was such a fascinating episode for so many reasons. I think, you know, we often talk about this, Andrea, in our datel stories. Every now and then there's just one factor, one person, one something that kind of makes the difference in maybe a crime never being reported or something not happening.

And then ultimately getting justice or something actually moving. And in this episode, I think it was the family's determination. I was just so really, really touched by her family and how doggedly they pursued this question of. Where did she go? Where is our sister?

Yeah. And it was like one clue kept leading them to another. Um and and the you know, the Koo family, they're lucky, right? They have they have resources, they have money, they have good jobs. Um, they were able to hire a private investigator. You know, they they were doing everything

that they possibly could. So this was a family that really fired up the, you know, the family machine where they were like, you know, we need to get to the bottom of this. And they hadn't really been very much in contact with Alice, you know, of late. I mean, text messages, the occasional lunch, but they didn't really know like what was going on in her life. And so I think I think there was probably some guilt there that, you know, they hadn't been, you know, as maybe close touch as they Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I got that sense. It it's so interesting. How right? Like life. Always moves and moves in different directions and you think that you're oh gosh, I'm keeping in touch with this person, but you can look up and say, gosh, some time has gone by since I've spoken to them. So I I just felt for them. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And you know, every family is different, right? And and they have six siblings. That's a lot.

Um, but you know, I think I think people have this idea that every family has to be in constant contact and having Sunday dinners and you know, it's just that's not reality for everybody, right? I mean I recently My my cousin, who's my mom's twins daughter, my we were very close growing up. Say that again.

So my my mom's twin, mm-hmm, um her her daughter, so my cousin. Okay, got it. Um, she uh it was we were very close growing up and we're still close. Like I I love her and all of that. And All of a sudden I realized you know, no one's heard from her. You know, and I was I and I was r you know, texting around family members. Has anyone heard from her? They hadn't heard from her? And so I st I the you know, I work for Dateline. Like the the panic machine started to set in a little bit.

Mine starts going, of course. Why is she not responding to her cellphone, to her email, to her WhatsApp? eventually she got in touch. But it was it was interesting though because that's all happening as I'm doing this story and I'm like, you know, it this can happen, right? Where where you lose touch or you don't talk as much. Yeah. Um, even though you care about that person.

I wanna talk about um Alice's sisters, uh Josephine and Grace. I mean, they really were kind of like the heart and soul of this story. I loved your interviews with them. They they were just so um so caring, so genuine. They They just were nice, sweet people and and yeah, really just really connected with them.

I could see that. I wonder if you can just kind of tell us more about your interviews with them, like any behind the scenes, just kind of what was it like sitting down across from them? Um Well, one thing that really sticks out with Josephine, um, was how and I say it in the piece, I say it in the show. She had this big picture of Alice next to her during the interview. And I say to her at some point, you know, this is the first time anyone's actually.

had a photo of their loved one next to them during and while I'm interviewing them. So the whole time I'm interviewing Josephine, you know, these are long interviews. Yeah. Like, you know, generally two to three hours. Yeah. She I'm looking at Alice. Like the entire time. Hmm. And she's right there. And Josephine said something like, Well, yeah, like she's what it's all about. Mm.

The family's journey across Taiwan, Josephine's journey, like what they saw, what they learned, what they where they went. That was just fascinating to see. We took the train um with Josephine. She we stayed in the same hotel with her, you know, di dinners with her. We went into the city at night where she what exactly what she did when she was putting up flyers. Um, and she came obviously to the park with us.

There was a scene where you were there and this notion of yelling out into the abyss, come home, yeah, Alice. And then saying it in Mandarin. Oh, it just I got chills. I was almost moved to tears when she started crying like What a powerful moment to be able to just kind of show their pain in the midst of being this dogged pursuit. I mean, they were doing all of this while wading through some really tough emotional waters.

Uh absolutely. She and she initially told me about it in the interview in California, Josephine. And then when we got to t to the park together, she just started calling it out, calling her name out, just calling Alice. And it what it does is by seeing that image, the visual, it really hits you. Just how helpless, right? When you look at the size of that park. How do you find the person? Like how do you find your loved ones? Yeah. In in a park like that.

Th it's just it's just impossible. It's the size of I believe it was Maryland or something was the Wow. Was how big it was, or if I'm getting that correct. Um Just how do you how do you find the person Despite your best efforts, despite doing everything that you possibly can. And and you could feel that. I could feel that, that helplessness and just but also the desperation of just like, ah, something, will something happen? Will something work?

Yeah. I love that we can fact check this in real time. I'm fact checking real time. the beauty of talking Dateline.

Just so you know, um I th I believe it was Taiwan is more like the size of Maryland. Um because the Toroko National Park, um this is why we fact check everything on dateline so you can actually believe what we say. Um So yeah, it's it's says largely mountainous protected area, roughly comparable to in size to the US Virgin Islands National Park or slightly smaller than Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Still a very sizeable national park.

Of course they give it in kilometers, but like nine hundred and twenty square kilometers. Okay. So um but he they had gone really, really high where there's not like as many Tourists up there. I my question is how does one get up there? Are there roads up there? Do you have to walk up there like

Is it high oh yeah, you wouldn't if you tried to walk up there, you'd oh my gosh, you'd be exhausted. You take a car, you're going up an altitude, you're you know, the w the the roads are so narrow and windy, you're looking down. At cliffs. I mean it was like pretty intense. So you're like on the side, like going up these mountains and looking down. Looking down like one you know, if something happened, y like yeah, it's it's um it's pretty serious.

You have a strong stomach for adventure. I I yeah what is that about you?'Cause I'm I'm listening to this description like I could never. I would never. I'm scared of heights. I want going up mountain roads, I I'm never able to do so. I've had a couple like that. Like one was in Colorado, um, that I actually had to drive and the sheriff was like, Meet me up at the spot where the woman, you know, supposedly went over the cliff. Yeah. And I'm like, I I thought it was just gonna be this normal

like track up there and I was like, What am I doing? And I'm driving the producer. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, like these aren't real roads. And and then like another time it was in Joshua Tree National Park. We drove three hours into the desert in a this Hummer. And it was white knuckle driving. And it was so bad that our producer Vince

who was following us'cause I was in the Hummer with the interview subject and there wasn't enough room for everyone. So he was following us in a Jeep and the whole transmission fell out in Joshua Tree. Oh my gosh. And so Vince was like What did he do? Stay with the Jeep and and make that uncomforta uncomfortable call to her. Saying like, hey, I'm in the middle of the desert and uh the transmission has fallen out of the Jeep. So um we need to get the vehicle out of here somehow.

Oh my gosh. The adventures that we go on. And we should say on this Taiwan we uh trip we came across some very evil monkeys um in Torocco that wanted our food. And everyone's not going to be able to do Also on social media. Yeah. They kept warning us, like these are dangerous monkeys. They will like bite you and they're they're evil and they will do they will stop at nothing to get the food. Yeah.

And so so we're uh you you can see it on my on my Instagram. We we were like running from them at one point. And then the um the owner of the restaurant, it's I call it a re it's not really a restaurant, it's just people making food in front of you like outside. And the guy came along with a gun. Oh gosh. And we're like, he has a gun, he has a gun. Boom, boom. Boom boom and he's like firing off the gun like for the monkeys. This has turned into wild adventures while shooting dateline stories.

When we get back, Andrea does a deep dive on a critical piece of evidence, that rental car. And she shares a clip of her interview with investigator Andrew Waters. young Marine. She didn't care about convention. They made a life together. Night the marine. Died. Investigation took a while. Unexpected and utterly bizarre term. I'm Josh Bankowitz and this is Trace of Suspicion. Listen to all episodes of Trace of Suspicion.

Let's talk about this email. This is something that we see more and more in Dateline where there's a someone who's gone missing and then oh magically an email comes through that says, Hey, I'm all good. I just needed some time. Don't whatever it looks like, that kind of makes things seem you know, a bit more calm. The data footprint really, really cracked this case here. Like you said, it was a smoking gun, essentially.

It w it was because, you know, with all the digital evidence combined with that email. It w it just it seemed impossible that she could have written it herself. And the defense pushed back on that and they said that they've never really been shown like hard proof that she couldn't have maybe they're like, maybe she wrote it from a cafe and it was near the hotel. And so it looked like

you know, it was in the hotel, but it was really near the hotel. You know, so they they tried to work around that, but I I definitely think that email, you know, did in the defense'cause Cause it is the we have how many times have we seen that on Dateline where and I'm not talking about Harold right now, but a killer um will write text messages, write emails, pretending to be the deceased. Person.

I remember doing that as a story last year. A young woman was was killed. This person was ultimately convicted. But he I mean, he logged into bank accounts, making it made it look like she was spending money, logged into her social media, was sending, posting, making it look like her, like doing all of these very different things. To make it look like when people go back and look at her digital footprint, like she was still moving through the world and her family looked and said, That's not.

something she would post. And you know, thinking about that, it had to have been harder for Josephine and Grace because they hadn't been i in such close contact. They didn't know how Alice related to her husband, for instance. So like the thing that stood out to me was the, hey, handsome Harold. Oh I was just gonna say that part. I mean I wonder did she really talk like that? Maybe. Did you say that? Did she call him? I don't know.

just kinda throw that in himself like like like definitely I'm I'm handsome. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. I don't and no one no one would know because Exactly it. Because they didn't know the relationship. They didn't know how they talk there were there was nothing there was no contact. Yeah. And maybe she does. Maybe she does. Maybe she can.

We all have cute names for our significant other, but just the throwing that out there, if that wasn't genuine, that one stood out to me like, huh, I wonder if she would have done that. Yep.

So let's talk about the investigation itself, Andrea. I was really struck just in the beginning hearing from the investigator, right? Like just kind of like it seemed like he had two pieces of luck that just worked on the side. One, the fact that there was a random number, 1725. That was all the company was able to give them. And he gets the house on the first try of all the 1725s. That was just a good thing.

It was really amazing, right? Like that yeah, you go over there's an apartment complex and um now you just have to figure out which apartment, y which wasn't that hard because you know, people people knew who she was and they knew she was married and The other piece was that he was in the parking lot and just saw somebody who looked like the doctor and he's like Hey, are you the doctor? Yeah, yeah, actually I am. I mean. What are they all-

I know, right? And and also like he didn't even know it was him. He just it was an older man and he thought maybe and it was. So um yeah, I mean he was the they had a good team assembled. We kept calling them Team Alice because they were I think they were the ones calling it Team Alice.

in the interviews and it was kind of fitting, right? Because there were just so many people on the team, like trying trying to find her and trying to figure out what happened, whether it was, you know, the Taiwanese investigators, whether it was the family, whether it was Todd Davis, the attorney or Andrew The investigator slash attorney. Sure, sure.

There was another piece of the investigation that you couldn't get into the episode about a flat tire with a rental car. I want to play an extra clip from your conversation with private investigator Andrew Waters. According to Harold, they had rented a car earlier in the trip and they hired a driver to drive them around Toroko Gorge. And Harold's explanation was that the driver drove while they watched the scenery.

And uh Harold dropped the driver and Alice off at the train station at the end of the day. So yeah, there was a you learned about more with this rental car? I can't recall at which point, but Harold told us that he had gotten uh a flat tire with the rental car. So he had a tow company come get the car. We subpoenaed in time w we took the deposition of the tow driver and tow company. Uh and got the location of where the breakdown was, got photos of the car.

We even looked at how much mud there was on the tire to see how far off road he could have gone and potentially dumped a body or other things like that. So we had like a more and more refined location for where these things all occurred. And that's the that's the story behind the flat tire of the Rhineland car. So all of this together, the forensic sweep, the flat tire, where did this lead investigators? What did this lead them to think? The flat tire

Harold tried to use that because he said that that's how he injured his hand. Mm-hmm. Right. But they think he injured his hand. Getting in a fight with Alice. Yeah. And also why yeah, like why was he out there. Like I I don't it just there's so many stories. From Harold. I mean just the notion of what happened to your hand, there were so many Oh I got in a fight with my I was wrestling around with my cousins and He opened the door for this perjury charge.

Yeah. You know, which is which is still pending. It hasn't gone to trial. Um there has not been a plea deal and it appears it's gonna go to trial. Um but yeah, like all these stories that the the state, you know, the the prosecutors in California We're like, hey man, we can go after him for that. Right. Right. Wow. I I loved what you said about amnesia being one of the excuses. And you're like who who says that? It's like a so buffer.

Right. Sha is like a soap like that's they do that on soap operas. Like and we do know there have been cases of amnesia, but really, I don't know. And life. In this one in this one, it seems like another stretch.

Mm-hmm. Well, I thought that this one was so fascinating. I thought the ending was fascinating too, because it ended with a civil judgment. He was found liable for Alice's death. twenty three point six million dollars awarded to the family. I mean, that's the judge making a pretty strong statement right there with that amount of money. But talk about what's next. What can be what could possibly happen? If he is found guilty of perjury, a felony, or And because he's a Canadian citizen.

he could be deported. The question is, where is he deported? If he's deported back to Canada, they also don't have an extradition treaty with Taiwan. So that means that Taiwan Taiwan can't come to Canada and get Harold. Is there a road where Harold is deported to Costa Rica, for example? Huh. And Maybe the Taiwanese police are waiting in Costa Rica.

You know, I don't know. I mean these are obviously all questions I'm sure that are being had, um, the FBI sat through uh a couple of FBI agents sat through Harold's civil trial. watching. Um We know the Taiwanese police were involved in that deposition. You know, they were getting real time updates on the deposition. So there's a lot of people watching Herald. Right. I think we just have to see what happens with this um perjury.

situation. And then, you know, does he go to prison or if he's found guilty? Or does he get immediately deported, you know, with say time serve because he was in jail for several months? Um, I I think that's just the next chapter in this and we'll have to wait and see what you know, it's it's almost it feels almost like a game of chess. Like you know, what what move is who, you know, who's gonna make what move next? That's kind of what it feels like to me.

Mm. There is a lot to watch, okay. Coming up next we'll take your questions from social media.

Okay, Andrea, welcome back. As you can imagine, we have tons of social media questions and comments on this episode. Love it. Um, okay, this first one comes from Casey Jones, who writes. How sad. PSA, if you're in a troubled marriage, don't go hiking with him or her. Casey is not. is very smart and because I've been saying long saying that in this job is if you are concerned about your spouse or your uh loved one or your significant other, do not go hiking. Absolutely

Absolutely. And I mean, there are so many things that can just go naturally wrong when you go on a hike anyway. Yeah. Okay, this one is an interesting one. This comes from Penny Harrison. Penny writes, I wish this family would try to get satellite images of the gorge where she went missing. Then use computers to scan for irregularities in those images. I heard of another missing body that was found using this method. That's very interesting.

That is really interesting. I I haven't heard of that. I I've heard of thermal imaging, you know, if someone's still Alive, but I haven't heard of, you know, after like let's say the person is not alive anymore. Sure. Um as far you know, beyond just like regular imaging, I haven't heard of that. But what sounds like a great tool.

It does. But you know, it raises an interesting question too about just closure, right? I wonder if Alice's family wants to keep searching for her remains, like just to have that closure. I I think they are never gonna stop searching. Yeah. You know, I think they're gonna keep going back to Toroko Park. I think that we'll always be there. It's a Catholic family. You know, that this this is very important to them.

to have Alice back and to be able, you know, to have a you know, a proper funeral and you know, certain religions. It's very, very important um to get the remains back. Um, well this next comment comes from Instagram. This is an interesting one, Andrea. So this comes from somebody named M. O'Brien who says, very accurate episode. I was a juror on this case in the civil trial in Santa Clara County. Wow. Oh, I love this. This is great.

It is, it is. I've never seen this before. Okay. So M. O'Brien writes, I was surprised that Alice's brother George wasn't included as he was the leader for his family in the search and trial, and Grace wasn't so included in the episode. Yeah, so um even though you didn't see George in the episode, he was very um uh involved with you know with speaking to us, speaking to his family about the program, giving us information, and also, yes, he played a huge role um in searching for Alice.

He's the one who, you know, got that number from the electric company for the apartment complex. Um, he was the one who hired the private investigator. So he was very active. I think it was just a personal choice in the end for George and his his wife and you know, hi their family. I think, you know, also private and I think that was just their, you know, just their choice in the end that they they preferred not to be on camera. But um Wonderful Man um did a lot.

to find his sister and would Brittany, um, our producer would you know, she had many conversations with him. Hmm. I love hearing that they were so active behind the scenes. And that's what we see in a lot of our episodes, right? Family who maybe doesn't don't feel like sitting down and being on national TV, but they want to help. They want to give information or pictures or whatever it is. Um well this last question, Andrea, comes from Facebook and it's about the book.

book Grace was writing. This is from Lori Reed, who writes, What is the name of the book that Grace wrote about her sister's disappearance? Yeah, it's called uh Where's Alice and it's um It's a fictional book? Uh so Grace told us that it was i you know, not only she drew on inspiration from

Alice's disappearance, but also from other missing women. She said it was very cathartic for her to write it and um she also hopes that once the book is out that it will help other families going through something similar. And right now it's not available, but her siblings, I believe, are in the process of reading it. And, you know, we talked to Josephine about the book and

uh you know, Josephine was, you know, had mixed feelings about it. I think uh because, you know, everything is just so sensitive with this, right? But as far as Grace goes, you know, it was it was a perfect outlet for her. She's very artistic. She's painted photo uh pictures of Alice. Um so that that is her way of of dealing with this tragedy. You know, I loved meeting her and she's just she's just very like introspective. You know, she she really is a thoughtful uh person.

Yeah. But I could tell. It it came across so clearly in the interviews that you did with her and just everybody in this episode, Andrea. It was it was beautifully done as always. Thank you. Thank you so much. And that's it for talking dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about any of our dateline episodes, you can always reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. You can DM us your audio or video questions at Dateline NBC or

Or you can leave us a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252. All of that for a chance to be featured right here on this podcast. Plus, did you know Talking Dateline is now available as a video podcast? You can check it out on YouTube or NBC News app. And we've got some very exciting news. Datelines Missing in America podcast has been nominated. A Webby Award in the Crime and Justice podcast category. So we can't win without you. We need you to vote.

Please go online and vote for Dateline. The deadline is Thursday, April 16th. We've included the voting link in our episode description. Thanks so much for listening. Friday night. a mother in this world. He's sitting right there. New take line.