Candace Gillhoolley on AI and Data Driven Marketing Strategies

Welcome back to Data Driven, the podcast where we dive deep into data science, AI, and all the intricacies of the tech world because who doesn't love an existential crisis over machine learning on a Monday morning? Today, our special guest is Candice Gillhooley, an industry powerhouse blending technical savvy with marketing insight. She's here to chat about her latest venture in sentient marketing. Yes. That's right. Marketing that

thinks and feels in its own way. Together with Frank and Andy, we'll explore the crossroads of data, AI, and marketing psychology. Expect revelations on the creative potential of AI, the nuances of neurodiversity in the workforce, and maybe a few day tours through nineties nostalgia. Grab a cup of coffee, and let's get data driven. Well, hello, and welcome back to Data Driven, the podcast. We explore the emergent fields of data science, AI, and data engineering.

With me today, I don't have that catchy, like, information superhighway thing, but, like, I think the information superhighway thing goes way over kids' heads today. Yeah. So so today is we're recording this on November 4th, and it's the 1st week in November, which, long time listeners of the show know that Andy and I kinda treat like New Year's, because it kinda closes out the crazy busy time of year, at least for me, and then starts going into the

planning for next year for a lot of things. Although I have 3 kids now, you know, one almost able to drive and one still in diapers and one in the middle. So I don't really have a quiet time of the year anymore. But, that having been said, this has been a wild year, and I'm glad to see 2024 in the rear view mirror for a number of reasons. How about you, Andy? How's things going with you? Things are going well, Frank. Yeah. I agree with

you. This is, it's a good time to transition because you get a bit of a jump on the New Year, the whole New Year thing. And, you know, it's hard to do starting over stuff, right after the holidays. I mean, I get it. And it's kinda for me, it's kinda worked out as having 2 New Years, when we do it this way. Yeah. So I get a lot of prep work done for the January 1st New Year. And it was you told me it was your mom or grandma. I forget who. It was my grandma. Yeah. Yeah. And I said, that's that's

a good idea. I'm gonna do that too. It worked out pretty well. And and and it also is a nice checkpoint because when everyone talks about their New Year's resolutions, you have 60 days. Like, well, did I really do all the things I said I was gonna do? Or did I not? But one of the one of the shining bright lights, there were 2 real, I think, accomplishments for me personally this year. One is the adoption was finalized. 2, I

co wrote a book and it's actually published. And that is our guest today is Candice Ghahouli, and it's a good story on how that's pronounced. And, it was you the actual print copy of it. There is a second edition in the works. So because this is a fast moving field. But welcome to the show, Candace. How's it going? It's going great. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. To just to speak to kind of November and

new year's, it's true. I I was it's funny. I was looking over my my resume the other day, and I noticed that when there were transitions, they tended to happen in in November. There's something about that very much of like, almost like a new year type of thing. And I think that, you know, once everyone is kind of running towards Thanksgiving, it's mentally it's when they start to slow down and say, wait a second, I got Thanksgiving and then Christmas and new years and

family. And this is my time to kind of take a break, take a pause, and, you know, think about what happened this year and the changes in positive ways that you wanna see in the in the upcoming year. So I completely agree with you on that sentiment. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, you know, I think historically, you know, most civilizations have been kind of agrarian in nature and harvest time is, you know, roughly this time of year, I guess, depending on your

latitude. Yeah. In the northern hemisphere, I don't wanna leave out our friends in in Latin America or Africa or Australia, New Zealand. But this has always been that kind of, like, thing. And, historically, the Jewish tradition they have, the new year is in September ish. And I actually looked into this. So All Saints Day was kinda treated like a New Year's for my grandmother. Like, that's was a big deal, big

dinner, a whole thing. But it actually has its origins in a pre Christian tradition where basically the harvest were done. They're all getting gearing up for winter, and everybody would just kinda plan, like, how they're gonna survive the winter and how to get ready for spring. Like, this is going back 1000 of years. So it's kind of like a good thing. And and for me personally, the 2 older kids have birthdays in late December, in the second half of December.

So the whole idea of getting anything done other than survival in December is kind of a joke. Right? So it actually works out pretty well. But, the, the thing I was excited about when Candice talked to me about the book was, you know, in my role as in in sales and selling AI solutions. Right? And I still do that right now. I'm a technical marketing manager. So kind of like what Microsoft would call developer advocacy, evangelism, that sort of thing.

Is there's a lot of marketing folks who know they need to use AI, but they're not really sure how to use it. Yeah. I think the why I think they get why they need to use it. But even then, the why is so they get keep their keep their companies afloat, right, and to stay relevant. But, like, you know, and I think, you know, I think what's really important to ask Candace speak to this is that we really wanted to have case studies and examples on why this is important. Right?

What are your thoughts, Candace? Because I know you picked a bunch of the case studies. Well, exactly. Like, so remember first, we

started with Target, and the idea is so We, we, we understand the why as a marketer, we understand why we want to be able to talk to our audience in the most targeted and precise and way that really resonates with them. We understand that we understand that there's a lot of data out there. That's, that's gonna come our way. And we can get, we can

drown in the data, which we don't wanna do. And we're a little afraid of the data, but if we think about working with it and, and kind of forming this relationship where we're saying, look, I want to understand what segment of my audience would respond to a, I want to understand, you know, what would convert people from having an item in their car to actually getting them to purchase with this group

B. Okay. And using the data to set up the right kind of queries where you're able to pull out the behavioral platform that these people are working on would and then hand it to the marketers, then the marketers are able to under they already know the messages they wanna send. They just wanna be able to send the messages to the right group. So it makes sense.

And that's That's true. Have to work together. And historically, on this, obviously, I have a great relationship with the marketing teams at Red Hat. And I'm not just saying that because that's where I am now. Like, it's legit. Like, I I really do. But historically, marketing and IT have not really been on the same page. And my favorite example of this is, Dilbert cartoon. Whenever he portrays marketing, they're all dressed in togas, and they all

have alcohol. And it says the science says welcome to marketing to drink minimum, which I think is kind of funny. But, like, I mean, it's not quite adversarial, but it's not quite cordial either. And I think that one of the things I wanted people to when they read the book, they they kind of walk away from it is you have to work together. Right? And I

can only speak as a technologist. Like, historically, Kent. Now I know you're kind of an exception, Candace, because you've been marketing for technical companies. But so you're kind of, like, you're kind of one of us, kind of. You know what I mean? Like, that sounded really bad. I mean, I meant it I meant it in the most possible best way. All good. No. But I really did. But, like, in the marketing field, how how how do marketers perceive IT?

See, IT and wrongly, I think that marketers don't understand the actual creativity that happens in the IT function. And they think that it's very static and super logical and, you know, just numbers and queries and computer programming. It doesn't really relate to a marketer who is emotive and creative and analytical where needed to drive a message. So they don't really see it as the same kind of person that why would, you know, potentially a non linear

thinker get along really well with a linear thinker like that. And how could they work together? But the point is they can. And the point is that they're more alike than they are different. And what I have learned over, you know, maybe the last 10, 15 years working with so many subject matter experts in, in a variety of tech sectors is how incredibly creative, these engineers and IT people are

because they're creating. I mean, like, it's it's you don't think of it that way, but they're creating something and then they're trying to show everybody what it can do and they want everyone to get involved with it. And that kind of innovation is in fact very similar to the kind of innovation that goes on in marketers. I I love the way you've described it because the analogy that's running through my head is that of definitely art and different mediums. So some people work in oil, others

work in marble. And, you know, I just never made that analogy before the way you just explained that. So, I I really do like that. And it definitely is different types of creativity. And then when I compare that with, you know, working with creative people, I'm a I'm an engineer. I feel the same way you do. I think it's a great description of it.

It's very creative work. But in working with other creative people, even other engineers, there are often clashes of personalities because, you know, there's I don't know what it is about creative people, but it's not the same as, you know, some other classes of personality, but it's definitely something there that that happens. So and I see that. That's I think that's why Dilbert's so funny,

about that when he does it. And, you know, Scott Adams, did share some of his experiences from corporate America. And one of my other favorite ones is whenever the, whenever Dilbert was punished, he was sent to accounting by by Phil, the prince of insufficient light. And, yeah, very, very interesting stuff. Very creative. Speaking of creative, very creative ways of of portraying that. And, yeah, because everybody knows engineers and accountants. That's a that that is a clash, as well. My I'll

say this and I'll shut up. My first CPA once told me that if I'm ever audited, he said take your degree with you. Just everybody knows engineers can't can't do accounting. They can't do accounting. Love that description, Candice. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much, Andy. I appreciate that. And we didn't do a proper intro for Candice because Candice has been worked in a number of,

great highly technical organizations. She was marketing at the Linux Foundation at Manning, and I know I'm leaving a few off. I know you did some evangelism, and marketing for some start ups. Yes. I

I much enjoy the startup mentality, you know, working with the engineer that has all that exciting creative electricity and then figuring out how we're going to go to market with with their product. I worked with a Kupunzu Focus, Kfocus.org, which is a Linux first laptop, brilliant for Linux super users and those who were involved in machine learning, NLP and AI. It really has this ability to handle modules.

The CPU in it is just out of this world and it's really able to help engineers of certain types of, of in certain sectors tremendously. So yeah, I'm, I'm a total geek. I tell everybody I was raised by an IBM inventor who was a TJ Watson Fellow, Doctor. Rudolf Rechtschaffin. And my whole life was IBM and computers. I mean, my dad came home with our first computer in 1983 under his arm. And, I tell everybody that and so this really will date me, but, you know, I,

you know, I look great. What can I say? But I used to play this game decathlon on this IBM computer in 83 when I originally was Bruce Jenner from the US. Right? I remember that game. I know. I remember that game. It was, I think they ported it to the Commodore 64 at one point. Okay. So Yeah. That's cool. Well, I love tech. I love tech. I've always loved tech, but I'm more of, I'm not a programmer. I'm, I'm a, I'm a non linear creative on

the other side in terms of sales and marketing. And, but that's why I really wanted to create this book with you, Frank, because I felt that the kind of the, the marriage of the two sides, the marketing side and the it data driven side would really make sense to what the capabilities moving forward are going to be. And that marketers don't, like, don't have to be afraid of AI, but you should be a little bit more technically literate because it helps you. Absolutely. And I think I I wanna double

click on something you said earlier. Like, you know, they may not understand each other, but I think in the years to come, arguably already, they need each other. You know, to move forward, any organization that does not that does their marketing based on kind of, you know, old fashioned ways or pre technology or pre leveraging data and AI is really at a severe disadvantage, to companies that

do that. Right? You know, And whether it's you know, I think a lot of people think marketing today has been influenced by, you know, social media and influencers and kind of doing those types of relationships. Well, I think that's true. I think there's a lot more subtle marketing going on based on behavioral data. What do you say about

that, Candice? I completely agree with you. I mean, I just wanna say to the influencers, this weekend, I watched the documentary about Martha Stewart that was on Netflix, and I cannot recommend it more. It was oh my goodness. I mean, I knew she was smart. She went to Barnard in the seventies. I went to Barnard in in in the in the late nineties. Like, you know, she was she was one of the first women on Wall Street before they even had bathrooms for women,

Like, really tremendously interesting stuff. And in fact, if you think about it, she was the original influencer before there were issues. In a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, and and people don't realize she was an investment banker. Yes. And she actually worked at Merrill Lynch. And I I had when I worked at Merrill Lynch, as a wee lad, and, there were a lot of people that remember her. Like, you know, they they were like, you know, she was

like, she they're like, she's one tough cookie. Like, that was kinda her. And smart. You know what I mean? To survive on Wall Street then as a woman, I think you needed to have Yeah. You couldn't just get away on smarts. You had to get be also very tough. So she was definitely very tough. So I know that you asked me about behavioral data. I'm sorry. We did we you know, you you've listened to the show enough, Candice. No. Like, we we do, you know, the the

tangents and offerings. Focused. So focused. It's almost obnoxious. But what I wanted to mention, which was so interesting, is it, so when she started as the original influencer and her whole idea of, of showing people how to entertain, Okay. She was feeding into a behavior of many women out there who were working, were also parents, but wanted to do something that felt significant in the family setting. And so she fed on a behavior that other people hadn't really thought about before.

So when she came out with the first book on just entertaining, and it's not just about cooking, but it's about flower arrangement. It's about table setting. It's about invitations. She was including everybody into this world of of a familiar behavior that they wanted. And that's why she resonated so quickly because she really targeted a market that nobody else was talking to. And that's why behavioral data is really interesting when you learn people's behaviors. What do

they like? What do they wanna see? What are they interested in? Right? What are the natural connections they make between individual items? That information is just golden nuggets. Well, and there's this whole field of behavioral economics where, you know, there's all sorts of psychology involved in that, a lot of enough history, even in there, there's biology for goodness sakes, driving some of these behaviors as well. And I

you've encouraged me. I'm gonna watch that that documentary now about Martha Stewart. I've I've admired her from afar, for a while. So I'll I'll definitely check that out. I already had a good excuse to watch that because I you know, Snoop Dogg ain't wrong about much. I'm just saying. Well, and and the whole He's become he's Snoop Dogg has become, like, the representation of America. Like, in so many different ways, he has triggered, you know, alliances of many different factions that

would never align before. For shizzle. For

shizzle. And and I love the commercial. It might have been last year's Super Bowl commercial where and again, she's a very clever marketer. Right? Like, I I I had no idea who Martha Stewart was until she did a commercial. I wanna say it was for American Express where she would do these, like, ridiculous over the top things, and she was acting like it was no big deal. Like, she was she was tiling she was tiling, like, the bottom of her swimming pool, like, to look like a, Renaissance

work. I don't know. It'd be cool if that commercial was in the documentary, but it was just like you know, she's like, what do you do with your old credit cards? And it was just like, you know and she basically cut them up and had this mosaic on the pool floor that she was making, and it was just kinda like she would do these, like, over the top kind of things. And I was like, wait. This lady is real? Like, this is like a real

thing. Right. And then and then after she and then and then she survived going going into jail. And then, and then she came out of jail and it, it tells you in the documentary not to ruin anything, but when she went to go do the Justin Bieber roast, it completely opened up an entirely new generation to who she was. Right. And they she was so smart in this roast for 5 minutes that she recreated her career again. And

now, you know, she's doing everything else that she's doing. She's she was she she she put a thirst a thirst picture up for, for Sports Illustrated Magazine at 70 years old. And she's like, yeah. I like sex. Yeah. I'm a woman. And I'm like, go. You do you. Because if you don't do you, no one's gonna you're never gonna get done. So I loved it. I loved it. I have to say, I mean, I'm always impressed with

people who can reinvent themselves And Yeah. And and particularly with her her situation with jail, which I suspect that given that she was on Wall Street, presumably, she had her series 7, it would be a really it would be really hard for her to say to the prosecutor, I didn't really know what I was doing. Right? Because it was just kinda like there were enough

people around still in the Wall Street. Wall Street's a very small place in a lot of ways, and there would be a lot of people, like, how could you not know this was insider training? Right? But, like, when she came out of that, like, it was really kinda like, well, is this the end of her, or will she reinvent herself? No. Now we don't know the answer, but, like, it's still pretty impressive in terms of, you know, I've always had great respect for people who can

continually reinvent themselves. And I didn't realize she was 70, but I guess the math does kinda point in that direction that she'd be she'd be up there. But, like, I mean and and the whole thing of, like, you know, you know, being part of that Justin Bieber roast, right, does reintroduce her to a new generation. And, you know, it's it it's fascinating to see that the Super Bowl commercials that she's done have been very clever where, you know, I use

it to light candles. And then Snoop Dogg comes on with Willie Nelson, and they say, or other things. And I was like, it's Safeway and, like, around that time. And there was this whole thing where there was a picture of the 3 of them where she has a speech bubble that says, you know, lighting candles. And then the Willie Nelson and Snoop Dogg say or other things, which is like it's brilliant. Like, it's just kinda like, she really leaned into that, you know, her friendship

with Snoop Dogg and things like that. It's it's it's interesting to see that. But I also think that because of social media, because of the constant barrage we have of images, concepts, and whatnot, you almost have to reinvent yourself constantly. Right? Like, if you look at the Kardashians, right, and I would hold them up as kind of like the the counterexample of Martha Stewart. Right? Because I don't really know what

the Kardashians do. I just know that they're famous. But that, you know, the ability to be an influencer like that. I think you're right. I don't think the Kardashians have been I think really Martha was there first. Oh, absolutely. And because she was, like, in a there was only one influencer, 1 or 2, but the industry was probably made by the by, you know, capitalized on by the Kardashians

and things like that. And people don't have people have more positive despite being an ex convict, people have positive impressions of Martha. When you say the Kardashians, somebody always cringes like in the room. They don't get that sense with Martha. But again, we're on another sidetrack. Sorry about that. Oh, and I know. And how are we gonna wrap this all the way up? I don't know. I have no idea. Somehow we always land the plane, and I'm never sure how.

My, my kids were watching the Madagascar movies last night. And, like, the penguins remind me kind of like how we run the show. Like, you know, the penguin where they do this thing like Now now we have to figure out who's Kowalski. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I don't know. I don't know who it is. Maybe it's Bailey. Maybe Bailey's Kowalski. I always go for the AI. That's right. Just blame the

AI. Well, there you go. But but I think it's it's important for people one of the notions that you came up with in the book, which I when I first heard it, I was like, that's a strange word. But it really works. Glimmers. Oh, I love glimmers. I think glimmers is really kind of like part and parcel of the of the book. Can you explain what glimmers

are? Oh, I love glimmers. Glimmer is when you you are reminded of something that makes you really happy. If it's a sense, if it's a sound and you, you see something and then you're immediately brought back to this really happy moment, that's something that's like inherent inside of you. And it just, it resonates. And then when you're able to trigger a glimmer, you've got the customer, the client, whoever it is, because you have spoken to something that, you know,

is so deep within them, that it just makes sense. And usually those kinds of things are like evocative of, of like, if it's a commercial, you'll see, it's like a song. So like, you know, everybody remembers the Coca Cola commercial. I'd like to buy the world of Coke, right? The song, it was evocative of, of the, of the seventies, which, you know, felt much more familiar and people caring about each other and being part of a big family.

So glimmers in marketing are exactly that, finding something even universal, but that's going to evoke the right emotion in people that's going to bring them to the sale. I love glimmers. I love them. Love them. Love them. And because we're constantly connected and constantly given these streams of things, I think, there's opportunities for the savvy marketer to bring these glimmers to life and really kind of embed that in their thing, their thing, their marketing

campaign. Right? Like, you can tell we're recording this on a Monday morning. So it definitely definitely feels good. Before your coffee. Right after the time change. Coffee right after the time change. With kids, man, that that time change is brutal. But, like, right now, I'm totally fascinated with the insurance commercials. The insurance commercials are they're hilarious. They are absolutely hilarious. And it's not just the emu guy, and I love the emu guy.

I love the emu with the sunglasses. I love that. But the other guy who's like this actor who's like the chaos guy. Oh, mayhem. See? Tell me. There you go. You love him. Right? Reminds me of my middle child. You laugh every time you see him. Yep. And it's like a sense of humor that has happened with these insurance commercials that really resonates. I really believe now with generation x and either, you know, generation X were the ones that are finally in the positions that we get

to make the final decisions. And that's why maybe the commercials are so resonating and so funny with me because they really speak to, you know, the time that I grew up in and how I think about things and okay. But they're hilarious and they stand out in their hilarity. They really do. And like you you're, you're not going to fast forward through one of those because sometimes because she's really like it. It makes you giggle. I saw the there's a new

emu commercial where, I guess, they have Thanksgiving Day parade floats. And it was on it was actually on Madagascar because it was, like, intercut, the commercial, and I was like, what? What is going on? And I I didn't watch the whole thing, but I was like, that's clever. Like, you know I also think too, like and I think you brought up something with gen x. Right? Like, I don't know if this has happened if this has happened before, but the whole

notion that you have different generations is not new. But having having to market to different generations, I think, is a relatively new phenomena. Right? Because obviously, you're gonna market one type of thing to an older crowd. You're gonna market another thing to a younger crowd. And that definitely still happens. But the whole idea, you would market car insurance across, you know, for for millennials and gen x and even boomers. It it's fascinating to kinda see. I also think

about the medium in which they're doing the advertising. So I think the advertising that's happening right now to generation Zed is on social media. It's on Instagram. It's on TikTok. It's on Twitter. And when they see it, let's say, or, or on Snapchat where they, they see it and then they, and then they, that is the

omni mark, you know, the omnichannel marketing. They see it on one of these platforms, they click into it, and then they keep on continuing in, in the virtual cycle till purchase because they're just gathering all the information they can because the social media allows them to. They're not even bothering going to the website, right? They're certainly not going to the mall to find it in a

store. Right? So, you know, so the the the marketing that has to be resonating with that with that particular market, let's say, gen zed, is different. It's genuinely different than the marketing that is resonating with gen z who are still watching television and who are watching television and who are not watching everything on their phones. Right? That that is an interesting because I I've noticed that with my kids is, like, you know, as they get

older, they do start watching TV. Now when they watch TV, it's usually a streaming platform. Right? Like, the whole notion of broadcast TV is, like, alien to them. Right. My mom, god rest her soul, was, you know, kind of an early boomer, I guess. But, like, whenever Christmas time came around, she'd be like, Rudolph is on tonight. Like, you gotta watch it. Right? And and and, like Now that I

can go stream at any time I want to. Right. Like, you know, I didn't have the heart to tell her we had it on DVD, which for you kids out there who don't know what DVD is, it was kind of like a CD, but, kind of like an iPad. Kind of like an iPad, but for video. But it was a separate thing. Dating yourself as you continue going. Right. As I go through it. Well, I remember

the generational change in tech is fascinating to see. Right? And I I I I I I wanna write more about it, but one of the things was, you know, my oldest, he's about 15 now, and we had to burn the CD for, a friend wanted something for to burn a CD. Then he heard that. He's like, woah, burn a CD. That sounds so cool. Right? And he was, like, 9 at the time. And I'm like like, yeah. I don't think it's but he wanted to help me do it. Right? So we're, like, he's, like, going

down my my office with me and, like, burn a CD. We're gonna burn a CD. And I'm, like and then he stops and said, what's a CD? I was like, oh, that hurts. That hurts. And it turned out it was very anti climatic burning a CD was like, no. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And the funny the funny thing is is that I bought they used to sell these big spindles at CompUSA. Yes. Of, like, a 100 of them. And I'm like, I bought one. I'm still

using it. Like, I found it the other day, and it's still not even halfway down, like, in terms of, you know, because, like, I even if I had a burner CD now, I'd have to really think about Not many computers come with, come with the option of playing them anymore. So unless you have, like, a c unless you have a CD player, really, because the computers don't have have it. So they're kind of

Yeah. I had my when I got my new car back in 2018, 2019, it was about a month before I realized it didn't come with a CD player. Right. And you and and now, like, if you don't have a car that doesn't have, like, where you can plug in, like, your stick. Right. You know, while your songs are just go hook up right to your Spotify. Or Apple CarPlay. Just use Bluetooth. Yeah. Yep. Yes. So one of our previous guests, Mark Tabadillo, fascinating guy.

Smart guy. Yeah. On the on the stream, first time I'd heard the term, he called it the divide between, digital natives. And I forget the term he used. I guess Digital immigrants. Immigrants. And it was a it was an interesting contrast, and it's that same thing, Candace, you were just talking about. And and we see it in in our kids. I'm my experience goes back about 15, 16 years when I'm explaining to Stevie, the icons in Word. And I say, well, you know, here's the this is a picture

of a folder. We have file folders, so he he got it. You open a folder. You take out a file. And then this is the icon next to it that we use to save a file. And he's like, what's that what's that a picture of? I said, it's it's a floppy disk. He's like, what's a floppy disk? And I was like, he's never seen one. I had some. I still have some. When I've got one, I said, this is a small one. Little ones? The little the little plastic

ones? The 3 and a half inch. Yeah. Yeah. The 3a half. I said, and I think I may have around here somewhere the 5a quarter, some 5a quarter. So I don't think I have a way to to access those. I may because I never throw anything away. I I'm not a hoarder. I could stop anytime I want. You're a collector. It's a bit thank you, Frank. It's like a the difference between a gossip and a historian. I like that. Oh, yes. That's a great comparison. It's

one of my good my my better ones, but you can take it. It's okay.

The the whole idea of perspective, I mean, floats through that. We've had conversations. I don't think we've ever had one online about this, Frank, but we've had conversations about in the SQL world, SQL Server Microsoft SQL Server world, there are SQL generations. And I had an opportunity to share this with a friend, less than a month ago at SQL Saturday Pittsburgh. He had been, one of the technical people in the community, SQL Server community, and he'd shared a lot of posts and

information and ideas. Great stuff. And he'd done it, then he moved into management. And that was about 6 or 7 years ago. And now he's kinda drifting back into the community, and he's like, gosh, I miss all that. And I I feel a little like, you know, I'm I'm out of the loop. Nobody knows who I am and all like that. And I'm like, maybe. But here's the thing. SQL generations run about every 4 to 5 years.

That's a that's a true thing. If you step away from technical blogging for that amount of time, then nobody's gonna know who you are. Not nobody, but you're not gonna pick up any new people, obviously, or or very, very few. But what I shared with, with my friend, Mike, was that here's here's where you are. You know how to do this. You've done it before. And because you know how to do it, you can do it quicker. And don't

feel like you've missed out. Just start and do what you did before minus the mistakes, and you'll be right back up there. Again, you know, you'll be the the new guy, the the new guy in 9 months. You know? So Well, but, I mean, that's a great example. Right? Because SQL Server has has changed. It's been around not forever, but, you know? A long, long time. Since the years began with 1. Since the years began with

1. And, you know, it it but it's really goes through kudos to the engineering team at Microsoft for keeping it fresh and relevant. Right? Like, more so than any of their competitors. But, like, you know, I remember when they added XML as a as a type. Right? And that was like, woah. And then, you know, then obviously, the Azure versions. Right? And then there's this is what what? Four ways to run SQL Server in Azure alone? Oh, I think so. Plus on prem? Maybe 5? I

don't know. They have really been pouring the innovation into Azure SQL DB. Yep. And it's it's almost magic here in 2024, just features they've added. It's are just almost magic. There's a really good YouTube channel. It's run by Anna Hoffman. Mhmm. I think that's her name. It is. Because I was at an internal Microsoft event where she was before she was married and changed her name. So I I always forget which is the new name, which is not.

I think so so so, like, she did a chatbot workshop, and then now she's on the, the SQL team. And, like, she has a great I think it's called Data Exposed. Yep. Awesome show because it's like it's a good round up on kinda, like, if you wanna keep up the date of what's cutting edge there, it's cool to watch. Yeah. And that reminds me of another guest we had who said we should sponsor an off road racing team because we always go off track. But,

where do you, you know, I think but all this is very relevant. Right? It's all very germane. Like, we can It's a pleasure, Frank. Well, we can it

is a feature. We you can always but now marketers have to deal with this. Right? Like, you know, you think about technology generations. Right? Or just let's let's keep it the mark marketing and technology. Right? Like, or marketing technological solutions. Right? It changes pretty rapidly, and that's like a cliche, but it really does change rapidly. Right? So, you know, your your friend who was out of the game, right, may actually be back in style because the whole rush to the cloud, the frenzy

to go to the cloud, I think, is over. Yeah. And I think I and I think that on prem is now cool again. And I think that you can bring that experience to bear because there's probably a lot of kids, can't if you can't see the air quotes, I did kids, but, like, who just don't know how to run a sequel on premise anymore. Well, people do, you know, new to the to, you know, to the experience, know that. And definitely applies, to marketing. And I I track what Microsoft Marketing does.

I you know, like a lot of people in this field and just a lot of people out of this field, I'm yeah. I see patterns, as they emerge. And what we saw for a good solid 5 years before, you know, say, 2017 to 2022. What I heard out of Microsoft marketing was all about the cloud. Yep. And, excuse me, I I can tell when the curve has changed. So So all of a sudden, you're drawing people and attracting people. Maybe there's a little bit of a curve going there. It's growing a touch

exponentially. And then when it gets to a spot where it either begins to level off or and I'm I'm kinda drawing this if you're watching the video. And then, you know, then they know that they need to do something new. And, Candace, I know you would know all of the right words to use with this, but they would take a different approach, new campaign maybe. And when they changed direction, I noticed it in 2023. I noticed it at last

year's past summit, and I saw 2 new things. 1 was all of a sudden, it was cool to be hybrid. And I think what had happened was they had seen the acceleration and, frankly, made the money that they were gonna make out of that, go to the cloud, go to the cloud, go to the cloud. And while it was a great solution, it still is an awesome solution for a number of start ups and a number of businesses like that, you get to a spot where you have reached some level of

saturation for that segment of the market. And I think that's what happened. I think the curve began to not flatten, but not to accelerate less. And so they realized that there's this huge piggy bank sitting out there of people who aren't ever gonna go completely to the cloud, but they may go partially to the cloud. And that's what hybrid's all about. Some of your stuff is on premises. Some of your stuff's in the cloud.

Number of reasons for that that range from being practical to being secure, to being regulated, to to not be able to do that. And I saw that. The other the other direction was, of course, what y'all's book's about. See? I am taking the plane down. What y'all's book is about, which is marketing and AI and how to use what I loved about the book, I still love it, and I

can't wait to to read what you're writing. What I loved about the first edition was how you not only talked about marketing and then AI, you talked about marketing AI. There's that piece. But then it's almost a pivot where using AI to help with with market. I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but it's like, you're you're certainly gonna you market you know, everything gets marketed. So AI is one of the things. But

there's that aspect of it. But then there's a pivot where you say, how can we utilize AI to do better marketing or faster marketing? And that's I I thought y'all nailed that. And the way you present it, that was it wasn't a subtle pivot. It was definitely a pivot in the book where you talked about both of those things. And you didn't say, no. These are different. You didn't say all Candice is doing. That was her idea. Yeah. Totally. Like, that

was totally her brilliant thing. I'll let her expound upon that. But, like, it was kind of like, you know, sometimes as practitioners, we get too wrapped up in this. Right? And it was like, when she kinda said some things, I was like, holy crap. That is an interesting way to look at it. So let's let's let's look at Candace. Oh, no. I'm enjoying listening to Andy talk

about how much he's enjoying what what I wrote. That's that's way more interesting to me than having me. Because because, again, what it really comes down to is what did he get from it? What, what is he going to use from what he learned? What new ideas did it evoke in him for him to understand why there is this vital connection between marketing and IT And that we are, you know, we are way better together,

right? And, and again, like in terms of dealing with a variety of personalities, like the whole world is filled with a variety of personalities, right? And, you know, I've explained I've had years of working with subject matter experts and I can go everywhere with like, you know, from the savant, you know, to the, you know, apoplectic academic. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, you, you, you learn to pull the genius out of them where you can, and where

that they will do the best job possible in the playground. But no, I, I, I loved hearing, what you thought, Andy. I thought that was great. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you all for writing the book. I mean, it was a it was a great presentation, and I'm super excited about, the second edition. I know y'all are working on it now, so you don't know

when you'll be done. And there's another book too that's, like, in the middle where we kinda talk about, like and also too, I think one of the things I don't know if we wanna spoil the, the the surprise, but kinda we've also been documenting the processes in terms of I've seen this in echo. One of the things that Candace is very good at is using AI to create content. So if you look at her on LinkedIn, you know, she's been making, like, these little cartoons and, you know,

which are really cool. Right? And they they I'll let her talk about, like, what she covers, but, like, they're really cool. And, you know, I've kinda helped her and, you know, with, like, some of this and some of the experimental stuff that I'm working on, that some people have seen the output, like the Bailey and Jen show. She was a beta tester for that. She has the Fetcheroo. I think you have Fetcheroo, don't you? I have Fetcheroo. I do. Fetcheroo is, is

a tool that pulls down transcripts from YouTube videos. Nice. And the idea for that well, I'll let Candice explain that. Well, it's really exciting because I wanna make sure that I'm also talking about everything that's going on. And I'm a big believer in, honestly, in talking about neurodiversity. And that's where, my the cartoon started. So Frank has been so amazing. He's taught me so much.

I can't I cannot even list on 2 on 2 hands how many different AI tools that he has introduced me to that I can use to kind of get my message out there. And so one of my big messages, about neurodiversity is neurodiversity strength. I want people to understand that if you have anxiety, that means you're really good at XYZ. And I'm not really interested in the challenges that it represents

because I see those more as opportunities. And so I wanted to find a really non threatening easy way of going out and saying, Hey, you know, if you have anxiety, then you probably have anticipatory preparedness, which means, you know, you really know how to set yourself up for success. You know how to create a plan, you know, the individual steps and milestones that go into the plan, and then you know how to

execute the plan. Because when you do this, it gives you less anxiety because you are more in all of what you're doing. So that's a strength. Well, kind of like it's, you know, the old Eddie and I, we talked about this on the podcast. Like, you know, we're weaponizing, like, our ADHD or we

weaponize a lot of this, like, you know, weaponize paranoia. Right? Like, if you're if you work in, like, high availability disaster recovery, that type of anxiety that she just talked about is a huge advantage over a normie. Right? Or, like, you know, a typical person. Like, so it doesn't have to be. And one of the things I think is interesting about, the concept of neurodiversity And I think the last, let's say, 50 to a 100 years where we

everybody work you know, they got they got a job. They got an education. They either got a job in a factory or they got a job in an office. That only appeals to one type of

personality when in fact for the eons of time that animals or, you know, nervous systems have existed, you always have a little bit of this, like, you know, variances. And some variances catch on and some don't. Yep. And I think that as the world changes from that nice, you know I was talking to my to my wife about this the other day about some people she knew from college where, you know, he he doesn't believe in getting certifications for continuing education

because his thought he's very much an anachronism for Gen Xer. He's very much out of place. But the whole idea is that, you know, I got my and I know people like this. I went to school with, right? So I'm not just picking on him. He's like, I got my degree in computer science. Kurt Cobain was recently dead. I think he was still alive. Tupac was still alive. Right? And I don't have to ever learn anything new again. I just sit in a desk. I get my, you know, my watch in 20 years,

and I get my retirement, and that's it. Then I go then I go do what I really want to do. And those days are gone. Yeah. That's he's in if he feels that way, he's in the right job, and he should never leave. If that job exists. If that

job exists. But he's very unhappy in his job and, like 2024. But it doesn't exist anymore. I mean, like, you know Right. I kinda maybe go too far the other direction. By the way, I hit 210, search licenses. But that's but that's neither here nor there. But I think, you know, but to to Candace's point, like, you know, people who are neurodiverse or not neurotypical. Right? Or maybe neurocelebrated would be a better word. Right? Like I mean, the neurotypical,

I I consider to be neuro basic. Neuro basic. And the neurodiverse give it another 20 years, and it's going to be the majority, not the minority. Right. Yeah. Well, it probably already is, but I think a lot of people are are, what's the word, covering for themselves. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Or They don't feel accepted yet and be and they feel they're gonna be penalized because they think differently. But if you look at the richest people in the world

today, as opposed to Many are. Hang on. Yeah. I mean, Elon Musk. Yeah. Enough said. He plans it. Yeah. Richard Branson, You know, one of the guys from Shark Tank is a very vocal, that he has dyslexia growing up. Yes. Right? Richard Branson too. But yeah. Bill Gates, obviously. Even Jeff Bezos. Right? He has kind of this obsessive Mhmm. You know, thing. It's not necessarily a bad thing. No. I don't think so either. Yeah. It's a it's a brain that's

wired for opportunity. Right. Because nothing nothing easy nothing comes easy. Right. You know, when you sit there and you can read and you can write and you can count and you're just doing it, that's one thing. But when you're an individual who has to learn how to learn, everything changes. Right. That is that is a very pregnant statement, and I think we need to do another show where we just pick on that.

You're right. I think that neurodivergence and how it's that would be a fascinating topic And would love to to have Candice would love to have that that conversation with with us 3 once a week. That'd be cool. That'd be cool. That'd be great. So we're almost at the time here, and, wanna point out that the book is Sentient Marketing, Foundations of Sentient Marketing. If you go to sentientmarketingbook.com

yep. She's holding the cover if you're watching. There's 2 options. You could buy the online course, or pick up the book on Amazon. Sentientmarketingbook.com. Sentientmarketingbook.com. Okay. And there's links to Candace's LinkedIn page, her Include Us World site that she has, which is about neurodiversity ultimately. Nice. And I think she's on to something. I think including people who are neurodiverse in decision making and strategy will let you see things that

one type of lens won't let you see. Well, thank you, Frank. Thank you, Andy. I would so enjoy coming back and doing another call about neurodiversity and and all of the the exciting wild world that there is out there for that. That's starting to Let's do it. Yeah. Alright. So anything else, Andy? Nope. Anything else, Candice? No. Thank you so much again. Thank you. Cool. And include us world is the URL. Right? So include us.world. World. Got it. Yes. One of those fancy

new top level domains. Mhmm. And with that, we'll let the nice British lady, Bailey, end the show. And that's a

wrap for today's dive into the vibrant world of AI driven marketing with Candice Gillhooley. We hope you're leaving this episode with a fresh perspective on how data, creativity, and a bit of sentient tech can truly transform the way we connect with audiences. Remember, whether you're an analytics ace, a marketing maverick, or just here for Frank and Andy's tangents, there's always a place for you in the data driven community. Until next time, stay curious, keep questioning, and let's keep

pushing the boundaries of what's possible with data. Now, I'll let the nice British AI, that's me, Bailey, officially sign off. Cheers.