Listener. We're. Always here for you.
You're listening to Darling Shine, a podcast by myself, LED Zeppelin and me. Chloe Fisher. A place where we ground womanhood. Unspoken experiences. From grief to fertility and everything in between. Join us while we transform our pain into power. Encompassing all emotions, ugly and beautiful. Darlene shine is your chosen family and your survival kit for the unexpected shit life throws at you. Hey darlings. So today we're talking about
mental health. So if you're struggling with your own mental health, there'll be some resources available in the show notes. So Mitch Wallis is not just a mental health expert. He's a passionate advocate, speaker, and the founder of Heart on My Sleeve, which is a global movement that encourages open and honest conversations about mental health. Mitch's journey began with his own struggles with anxiety and depression, and it led him to share his story and inspire millions around the world.
With a background in psychology and a personal mission to change the way we talk about mental health, Mitch has become a leading voice in the field, known for his raw authenticity and deep compassion. In today's episode, we will be exploring some strategies in which you can help friends struggling with miscarriage who are grieving some strategies in how to help yourself. We're going to be talking about postpartum
depression baby blues. So whether you're seeking advice for yourself or someone that you love, this conversation is one that you definitely don't want to miss. So without further ado, let's welcome Mitch Wallace to the show. Welcome, Mitch.
Chloe, you're a legend. I'm so stoked to be here. I'm a massive fan of your family. Coop's a good mate of mine, and I just respect his whole demeanor. Every time I see him, I leave feeling lighter and brighter, which I just think is such a rare, rare attribute in people these days. And I followed you and your journey for a long time. I think your honesty and
vulnerability through your pregnancy journey was inspiring to say the least. Um, and big fan of Phish's music and him representing us from Down Under here, so it's an absolute pleasure to be here.
Oh, yay! I'm very excited for this chat. Thanks so much, Mitch. So someone's lost their loved one and you're feeling like you need to speak to them about it. You need to ask if they're okay. What is some of the ways that you can speak to this person without, you know, that just being that texting them saying, are you okay? Or, you know, how do we delve deeper into that conversation with these people?
Yeah. Good question. So I've kind of devoted the last six years of my life to answering that ideally in the best way possible outside of someone getting a psychology College degree so that non-clinicians i.e. mums, dads, brothers, sisters, co-workers, people, managers can be there for important people in moments that matter most when they're in emotional pain. Shameless plug wrote a book called Real Conversations A five step Framework to
Connect with confidence, coming out September 3rd in Australia. So get a copy. But I'm going to touch on some of the key concepts from that book in this talk so that if you can't be bothered reading it, you'll have what you need to still create actionable difference. So we're spending more money on mental health services. Charities are getting more visibility, stigma is reducing, blah blah blah. But loneliness has never been higher. Suicide stats are soaring and
mental illness is rampant. So there has to be a disconnect. And I've been lucky enough to study under some of the leading thought leaders globally who have literally written the book on attachment style and parenting. Like Harvard professors, psychiatrists. I as well have a master's degree in clinical psychology from Columbia. And I've struggled with this for 20 years, and I kind of went back and thought to myself, well, what has been pivotal in my journey? And then what
does the research say? And without a doubt, the single greatest influence to my own well-being and the reason that I chose to stay here on earth was because of my mum. My mum is my guardian angel. Such a rock solid human. And I tried to work out well. What was she doing so well that potentially other people don't have a natural inclination for? Not by virtue of malice, but by just a lack of education. And what did
she happen to get lucky with and do right? And it turns out that what she did well is also what the research says works the most, and that is that human relationships are without a doubt the single greatest influence to our wellbeing Being outside of genetics, who you have in your life is the number one predictor of happiness and the number one predictor of unhappiness. Harvard did a longitudinal study, and they looked at tons of people
across the lifespan, 85 years plus. And they tried to boil down the most impactful variable to when someone's on their deathbed. They said, I've lived a good life. And it was the quality of their relationships more than their socioeconomic status and everything else that was the driver of happiness. On the other side of the coin, when they tried to look at, well, what is the best thing that we can do to buffer against the inevitable shit that
life is going to throw us? And it was supportive relationships. It literally was the difference between two people seeing this same traumatic event, one person being highly symptomatic later in life and others not being so badly affected was how connected they felt through it. There's no doubt That humans need each other more than anything else, and our longevity as a species and our ability to reverse this worrying mental illness trend is going to be made or broken
on our ability to have real conversations. However, the biggest thing I've found is that people have the wrong definition of helpful when they're trying to support someone in emotional pain. Up until now, we've walked around with kind of one hammer in our tool belt, expecting that that's going to be the solve for every conversation that we have. And I call that a transactional conversation whereby our intention is
to fix and solve. And it makes sense. Right? Because all of school, we are incentivized for how good we can be at solving problems. And then we're going to university and the workplace, and we're promoted and compensated on how smart we are at making problems go away. So that's all well and good. But the problem is, is that thinking one tool will handle every situation is like expecting that you can assemble a house with just that instrument.
It's not going to happen. If something is practical, it's fine to fix the problem. If something is emotional, your goal is to understand the person. Now that might seem very small, but in practice it has massive consequences.
It's so interesting that you say that because I remember back maybe two years ago when I was really struggling and we did a podcast episode on like Helping Friends. What to say when your friend is going through like fertility struggles. And the number one thing that I said was educate yourself. Actually going away and educating yourself on
that topic or educating yourself around miscarriages, for example. And for that person who is struggling to listen to the friend that's gone out of their way, given their time to try and understand and educate themselves around that. It's so touching. Even though it's not going to help really fix your problem, to have an understanding of your friend that's trying to do help outside of just like I'm thinking of you or are you okay? It's like it's so special.
And what you're touching on there, Clay, is that what that symbolizes is that they care, right? And so, so care. It's the active ingredient in a real conversation. It's advice is not the thing that gets people better. So I'll use one more bit of research, and then I'll stop being a nerd and talk from the heart. But um, different people have different learning styles on listening to pods, so if you're data driven, then geek out for one
more minute before I switch gears. But when I was writing the book, I tried to find in the literature, why does psychotherapy work? Like when you go to a counselor and you talk about your feelings and stuff, why do some people get better and others don't. And what was proven in a meta analysis, which means basically studies of studies was it didn't really matter whether someone did cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy or whatever intervention
a therapist uses. The main predictor of a therapeutic outcome was the quality of the relationship formed, i.e. how seen, heard, understood, and cared about. Because the patient has a natural healing mechanism inside themselves, the therapist's job is not to fix something that's broken, but to enable the self-healing capacity to come back online. And that most pain emotionally is not the problem. It's the shame. It's the shame, loneliness, frustration
and guilt. It's not the problem itself when you're having a real conversation, if all you do is hold back on giving advice and you what we call in in our world. Sit in the mud with someone instead of trying to drag them out of it. They will feel better. That's so.
True. Yes. So?
So what is understanding a person and sitting in the mud actually look like in practice, versus trying to fix their problem and take them out of the mud. So there's there's five things to avoid. And I'm going to put a character name on them. Right. So let's assume that someone's just had a miscarriage. The first mistake to avoid is being a magician. So that is thinking that you can wave a magic wand and just take someone's problem away. A magician would say something like, you should
talk to Monash IVF. They're an amazing fertility vendor and they'll be able to get you back on track. And you just need to use an embryo instead of an egg. And has Paul gone and got tests to make sure that he's fertile? All this stuff, when you're actually just grieving the loss of a life and you do not want to hear that shit right now, There is a time and a place to pick up and move forward. Absolutely.
We're not talking about wallowing, but if the first thing you do is jump straight to a solution, that person will feel like something that's broken in need of repair. And you won't actually attend to the swelling, which is a broken heart. So it doesn't mean you can't give advice. It just cannot be straight off the bat that you try and wave this magic wand and clue. People all day, every day don't even realize they've switched from a practical
conversation to an emotional one. Like, for example, your partner gets home from work and says, I'm feeling really distant from you at the moment. And you go, oh, this is a practical conversation. Okay, well, let's go for dinner on Saturday night, when actually, that was an emotional conversation. And what they wanted to hear was, shit, how long have you felt that? What do you think's is driving that? And getting curious around the person? Not the problem.
You're just banging on everything right now. That makes so much sense. I think I'm getting better at asking the, you know, diving deeper into the conversations. But naturally, as humans, I feel like we just try and mask the problem and sort of like divert the attention to something else.
Yeah, yeah. And as I said, it's really natural because that's the way our society is structured. That's the way our brains are hardwired. We've kind of part of the reason we're in such a shit show mentally, is that we've lost a lot of heart. We've just we operate so much from the head nowadays, but we are a social, emotional species that has learned how to think, not the other way around. And we've forgotten a big part of who we are, and we don't like seeing people in pain.
So we go back to our traditional tool, a hammer, and we try and exchange information. But what people are looking for is, is connection, which is to feel understood. stood. So mistake number one, don't offer a solution straight away and let them ask for it as an adult if they want your input and advice. Second mistake people make is being a thief. Again, no shame around these mistakes. I do them all the time. So the thief jumps in with a same or a me too and steals
the focus. So let's say you approached a friend and said I just had a miscarriage and they go, oh my God, I had a miscarriage three years ago. Bless, right? They want to be like, no, you don't need to feel alone or exposed or vulnerable. I'm right there with you. I get it so much because I it happened to me. The problem, though, when that happens again straight off the bat, is you steal that person's opportunity to be validated for their pain, and then it becomes a competitive bidding war
around who's felt worse. And the person in pain now feels like they need to support you when they don't have any capacity right now to even support themselves.
I feel like this is the biggest one.
It's it's a big one for sure. It's a silent connection killer because we forget that people do genuinely want that moment to be understood before we make it about someone else. Just to reiterate, as you said, Chlo, we can see ourselves in a lot of these. And it's not to shame. It's just not helpful when you're having an emotional conversation because it's most helpful for them to feel understood. Have you had instances where someone has shifted the focus away from you during your hardest times?
Oh, definitely. And I think as well I can take a note out of this book too, because I think even sometimes when I'm talking to Paul about things like, I'll say something to him or he'll say something to me, and then you immediately talk about yourself or give an example of. Oh yeah, well, yesterday I wanted to get this done, but I didn't get to get it done because you were doing it and they're like, well, why
are you flipping this on you? I'm trying to tell you that I'm struggling with this, but now you're making me feel bad because you didn't get to do it yesterday. Yeah, yeah.
We're in a comparison war.
It's really difficult. And I and I think as well, for exactly the example that you just made in the miscarriage world, it's so common for people to they think that you're helping them out by telling them that you've had a miscarriage and, and then all of a sudden the roles flipped and you're trying to help this person, but you're deep in it, and often it's actually quite triggering to I find sometimes. Yeah, don't take this the
wrong way. Anyone and I don't want to sound like rude, but, you know, I might be in these scenarios where I'm at a nightclub trying to enjoy myself. And I've had this when I've had a miscarriage previously and I've just had it. I've spoken about it on the podcast. I'm out having a good time trying to take my mind off things and some will come straight up to me. Trauma dump on you. And it's. I find I feel
so selfish saying that. But that is so difficult when someone comes up to you, like this whole conversation that we're having right now. I'm kind of like shooting myself in the foot here because it's very much like, how can you talk to these people and how can you start these conversations? And that is a way that people do start these conversations. But it often upsets you even more because then you feel like you need to comfort them. And it's like this whole cycle and I struggle. I
actually struggle with that really hard. And I still struggle with that. And I know I'm a massive advocate in the miscarriage space. I'm the member, like on the board of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And you'd think that that I would be a poster girl for people to come up to and talk to about that, but it actually is really, really triggering still and really upsets me when I do have to talk about these experiences. So
I don't know. I'm actually stuck in a bit of a pickle there, but I feel that in so many levels on both sides as well.
Can I just like, reflect back on that? Because I think it's a really important point. And I want to say, which is a good segue to actually mistake number three. Don't be a blind optimist. You are a role model for so many people in a similar situation. And I don't know about you, but at least in my life, the answer is never found in black and white. It's somewhere in the middle. So using this example, we're not like I have a charity called Heart on My sleeve
that I founded. I am the biggest advocate for people speaking up when they're not okay. But just like you, when I'm out getting coffee every morning or when I'm just finished a massive keynote talk and walk off stage in front of a thousand people where I've just told my demons, I have a line of people that are waiting to come up to me and tell me their most traumatic moments. So you might say, well, you hypocrite, you started a charity and now I'm doing the thing
you've asked me to do. Yes. With context though, right? We have to put a reasonable layer on some of this stuff. We don't want to swing too far either way. If everyone's talking vulnerably with no safety constraints at any point in time to anyone, in any environment, that's not good. But we also don't want people to walk around rigid and in silence either. We're looking for people to get
conscious around how to have conversations that are helpful. Again, the reason why I'm passionate about this work that I'm doing is it gives you the nuances to make sure it's helpful and not hindering. Yeah, that person at the right time coming to you when you're in the headspace to be able to hold that space. What an incredible connection you guys would have had. But it's on them to also be conscientious of where you're at, too. Yes.
Nailed it. It's hard. It's so hard to find that sweet spot and exactly what you just said. I am
not great at it either. And I'm learning. And I feel like that this podcast has been such a great platform for myself and Elody to learn too, because there's so much that we go through and there's so much that we put out there and we try and help so many people, but often we're actually making the mistakes first to come and bring it out to you guys to find answers and solutions to better help not just us, but, well, not just you guys, but actually ourselves.
Correct. I think the best type of expert is an explorer, not an authority figure. You know, it's someone who's like, I'm fucking rolling around here figuring it out as I go. You're welcome to come along versus I have all the answers, even the things I'm talking about. Now. This is stuff I've learned in my own life. I've then validated in research, and I try and do my best every day. Totally. But perfection is not the way to go.
I love that even in the lead up to this chat, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so nervous. Like every chat, I get so nervous. And you know, some people I've they've written reviews. A few people have come like, you guys are shit podcasters. And I'm like, oh my God, I am not a professional speaker. I am not really a public speaker. I'm just getting on here and I'm doing my best. I'm trying to ask the questions that I want to know, and that you guys are going
to get helpful. And we don't have to be perfect. Like, let's get on there. Let's get on here and make a mess of this because no one is perfect. And if you were perfect, it would actually probably be pretty boring to listen to.
Amen. And I think that's such a good metaphor for having these real conversations. Let's get in there and make a mess of it. I couldn't have said it better myself. Where things go wrong is where you come into these scenarios thinking that you need to solve it. For someone thinking that the grief of a miscarriage is now on you as a supporter to extract from their soul. Of course, that's an overwhelming and impossible task if it's framed like that.
But really all people are asking you to do is to sit in the mess with them for a little bit so that they feel like they're going through it together. We can get through anything so long as we go through it together. They're looking for your ear, not your advice.
Yes.
So mistake three is what we call the blind optimist, where we overly sugarcoat it and silver line it to avoid going toward the hard, dark, uncomfortable truth. And you know that you're you know, you're a magician if you say should or shouldn't too much, you know you're a thief if you say same or me too, too much. And you know that you're a blind optimist if you say at least so a textbook one.
At least a.
Textbook one in your space is at least you know you can get pregnant. Yes. And isn't that a dagger to the heart when you're like, I just lost a fucking life. Stop trying to tell me to see the fucking bright side. Fuck.
You are just all over this chat, I swear to God. You, like, take the words straight out of my mouth. Like everything that you're saying, it's like, aha! Yes. The words at least are so bad. I mean, it's not. It doesn't even relate to miscarriage. Yes, it absolutely sucks. That one sentence is probably the worst sentence you can say to anyone when they've gone through a miscarriage, but in Lee's case, for example, she's lost the love of her life and
she was able to retrieve Champy's sperm. And then someone's like, you know, at least you got mini out of it. It's like, no, no, no, no, I lost the love of my life, I love Minnie. Minnie is the best thing that's ever happened to me. But I would take my, my, the love of my life back at any point. So, like, just don't ever let those words come out of your mouth in any situation. I just think that they need to be removed from the dictionary because they actually make
you feel much, much, much worse. They're never good. They're never good. I don't think we've here, I mean.
Here's a real clue. I don't know if this resonates with you, but I try and live by it. And that's I will only ever help someone see the bright side. When I've earned the right first by sitting with them in the darkness. Yes. So unless I fully fucking know their pain, unless I have gone to extreme lengths to meet them where they are, I'm not going to tell them where they should be. Again, not putting a black and white approach here, looking at the grey because life
is grey. That doesn't mean that you should or can never prompt people to see different perspectives in life. But it does mean when you contrast what could be against the direct pain that they need to grieve and feel. You're going to get them to deny and avoid their own pain if you just keep getting them to go elsewhere internally. Coming back to your original point, when we started this pod, it's not about you getting them to
see the bright side is often not for them. It's that you don't want to sit in the mud right now. It's fucking awkward hanging around in this negativity. Let's change the vibe. So let's look at all this stuff and it's like, no, as a supporter, that's your shit. I'm actually okay here. I need to be here right now, in Elodie's case, remembering my the love of my life. But if you don't want to be in this, then you can go elsewhere.
I think as well. That's like a really good point. And I was thinking about that and it might come across as quite selfish, but you know, everyone's going through shit at different times in their life. The shit pile is bigger and sometimes the shit pile is not so big. But you know, if your head deep in shit, for example, and your friend is also head deep in shit. It's quite hard for yourself to be like, how can I give myself to that person when I'm actually really, really
struggling myself? Because often you do have to peel back the like the layers of the onion with them, and you have to sit in their shit and you have to go through it with them. But sometimes you don't want to make that move because you're like, where do I even find the capacity to help them when I'm really struggling to help myself? And I mean, for us, for L and I, often we it's a bit of a clusterfuck all over and we're all we're both going through. We I mean, we're pretty good at that where we
just sit in each other's, like, craziness. Like we're like, oh my God, if we only had a TV show on this, it would be like a number one viewed show because there's just so much shit going on constantly. But I find that really hard. And we're probably I've probably taken a bit of a left turn here, but I think that that is like probably a reason why people don't sit in other people's shit because they're going through their own. Is that do you think that that's true?
100%. You know, you said the word capacity. It's a really good word in that, in that instance. So it's just being honest in those moments. I think with people when it's really hard and you're like, right now I can't get right down into the pit because I'll lose my footing to, are you okay? If you're patient with me as I go on a process of supporting you, and I'm going to be trying my best to to understand with the capacity that I have right now.
Yeah, it's a hard one.
It is a hard one. Which leads us to number four, the helicopter. The helicopter freaks out or freezes up when someone brings them any type of emotional distress and kind of loses themself in that person. Often correlated with an anxious, preoccupied attachment style, which a lot of people have. And there's no shame in that. You don't. You didn't get a choice over it. It's from our parents anyway. Um,
and it's hardest when we care the most. So, parent to child, when your child is not okay and they bring you some pain, you almost don't separate that as theirs. It's now ours. And, um, but there is a reason why yin and yang are separate but together. An adult always needs to remain in their sovereignty in order for other people to be able to hang on to them as a stable object. Emotions are scientifically proven to be
contagious up to like three degrees of separation. So if you imagine when someone's presenting their heart to you and it's ripped apart, you, you're standing there with a glass of water and a glass of gasoline. Like choose wisely. You can add to the contagion of pain by becoming a tornado of their pain and not staying in that really anchored position. Now people mishear me on this one and they think, what? So I just have to be strong all the time. And the answer is absolutely fucking
not again. I created a charity of being vulnerable. But if you want to be helpful in that conversation as a supporter while you're wearing that hat in that moment, yes, you need to fucking anchor down. If that's what you want to be is helpful. You need to find something in you that you can stay stable on so that other people can come to shore using you as a life raft. Then if five minutes after that conversation ends,
you need to fall apart. Fall apart? This whole system is just a series of dominoes where we're falling apart on each other. But like, you know, you travel a lot with with what you and Paul do and the lifestyle you lead. I don't know about you, but when the when the planes got turbulence, I look to the flight attendant to see if they're relaxed or not. That's how I know whether I should be scared. Mhm. Is like what's their reaction? Humans are doing that all day,
every day with their emotions. They're like, I'm feeling anxious. Should I be feeling anxious? I'm going to check the emotional regulation of everyone else. So one of the greatest gifts you can give to other people you're trying to support is work on your own shit so that the washing machine is relatively clean, by no means perfect or fixed, but relatively clean, so that when they bring you dirty laundry, you don't give them dirty clothes back.
I'm loving the analogies. It's so it's. Yeah, we love a metaphor. It's so it's so, so true. And as well for on the other hand, I when I was just recently in hospital trying to ask for help to it's like, actually let me get you, let me, let me get let you get the last. The last tip out. Last one. Let me get the last one out. And then I'm going to flip it. I'm going to flip the conversation. Yeah.
So last one is the ostrich. The ostrich is kind of the opposite of the helicopter. The. Oh no, it's the I'm going to pretend that I didn't even see that. I assume that person's not okay. But this isn't my bag. You know, this isn't my jam. The whole emotional thing. It's usually from a dismissive attachment style. Again, no shame in that we probably weren't modeled healthy vulnerability as a child,
if that's the way we're operating as an adult. And ostriches usually doubt their own ability to be helpful in those moments, or they're phobic and petrified of feeling any type of awkwardness. Now, the reality is, you got to get better at sitting in uncomfortable shit and feeling awkward. If you want to be a human being that is in any way, shape or form emotionally helpful and supportive, and that the first sign of tension or when someone's crying.
For example, when I did my master's degree, I was so fascinated to learn that the worst thing you can do when someone's crying other than like, you know, be abusive is hand them a tissue. Because what it signals is clean yourself up and hurry up. So the best tissue in the world is three words take your time and then shut up. Then just stop. Do less. Let them paint the walls with their pain. Because crying is
the nervous system's way of purging. It's trying to heal and you're trying to stop the healing.
I just got goosebumps.
And I'm going to link it back to your beautiful comment at the start. It's not about you. That tissue is about the supporter. I'm uncomfortable. I need a prop. Now lean in, say take your time and then be in what it is to be human. Which is it's fucking shit right now. Mhm.
And even if you just sit and say nothing. Is that helping?
Abso fucking lutely. It is like there's so much I posted about this on Instagram the other day. I was like, when did care become negligent? And what I mean by that is in so many conversations, we walk away and we're like, I wish I could have helped. I had no advice to give. And I was like, but you loved them just then, right? You loved them hard. And you got in there and you listened and you tried
to understand them. That was your only job. If you're having a real conversation, you must get better at leaving that conversation knowing that you scored 100% success. And the problem is still 100% the same if that person feels totally fucking heard and supported. Yeah. So the equivalent in the grief, just to round out that analogy that we've kind of flushed through all the mistakes, um, a helicopter in the grief is like, well, I don't even know
how you're dealing with this right now. I would be such a mess. And you and the ostrich would cross the other side of the road when they saw you walking toward them, because they wouldn't even know how to ask about your miscarriage. So this is the best summary of everything we've spoken about on how to make the transition toward a real conversationalist. The single most helpful thing you can do with someone experiencing grief is to say,
what do you miss about that person the most? Um, or if they're not earthside say, what does this loss mean and represent to you? I.e., you go Directly toward the eye of the storm. That's so scary. Is there that we get better.
Even you just saying that just then. I'm just thinking. Shit, how do you even. How do you even do that? That's such a scary thought to to go straight towards the eye of the storm of the problem.
It is. Huh? It is.
So in like context of talking miscarriage. I've just had a miscarriage. What? What? And you've just found out. What are you going to what? How are you going to approach this?
So. So some of your listeners right now might be thinking, God right after a miscarriage, saying, what does that represent to you might be too hard, and you should use your own discretion and put relationship context, you know, into the mix here. But a principle that might help guide your sequencing is the bigger the bomb, the bigger the
paddock it needs to explode. So what I mean by that is like the the heaviest something is, the less you should try and fix it or even be involved verbally or like brainstorming it out or any of that shit. Like I had a friend the other day just tell me that they have been diagnosed with cancer. Nothing I can say next is going to make that better. I just hugged them and I just breathed and we sat there for a few minutes, just in silence. And that
silence was doing so much heavy lifting. We didn't get to do it at the top of this segment, but usually you start this with a shine and a shit, right? I think that's the name of the segment. And my dad. I just got home from America to to my dad being hospitalized for suicidal ideation last Sunday. And that's a lot for, you know, it's the first time this has ever happened. And I went in to the clinic and I saw him and he looked me in the eyes and said, the only reason I'm not taking my own
life is because of you. That is awesome. As a son, that is the shine. But it's also shit to have your hero at his knees wanting to take that away from them. But I knew that all I could do is just sit there with him. There is a time and a place for us to talk about medication change and his sleep apnea, and the effect that that's having on his ability to self-regulate and all this other shit. But in that moment, he just needed to know I
love him. And I held his hands and I looked him in the eye and said, I love you, and just stopped. And there was a turning point in his eyes there. He knew I had his back. He trusted that. I know he's going to get through this and will work out the details later, but that was a big bomb and I'm going to let that land. So if someone's just had a miscarriage, you might not go straight to what did that represent. But I'm sure if someone like Elodie said that to you, even the day of.
What does this mean to you, Chlo? What's the hardest part? Right now, someone that safe. It's actually probably relieving to put some of that really, really deep emotional baggage somewhere else.
Mhm.
Yeah. Totally. And I there, there is like I guess like we've just gone kind of gone through and firstly I'm actually really sorry to hear about your dad. Um, and that's probably the wrong thing to say.
No I don't want you to be petrified now to say the wrong thing either. The care translated right. And I think what a perfect thing for us to, to to dance on right now. After all that, it really doesn't matter what you say, so long as you just deeply fucking care. And you just you acknowledged it. First of all, you're not going to be like, at least he's in getting treatment or. Yeah, you just went there. I'm sorry for the pain. You acknowledge the pain and that's all that matters.
And I think as well, with you saying that with what Elody is saying, what does this mean to you and exactly it needs to be context like in context with the person and how deep, how well you know them. But I think that that question as well, if that was being asked to me, that's actually really touching, because you then get to talk about your experience and, you know, what does this mean to you? It's like that baby
meant everything to me. I've worked so hard, and it really triggers that conversation for the person who's suffering to be able to share as little or as as much as they would like. And that's what I love about this podcast. We get in here and it's almost therapeutic. And do you get up there and everything that you've been through, do you find it therapeutic to talk about things?
Yeah for sure. I mean, this space gives back more than it takes, but it's a lot, right. And I yeah, I've had to build incredibly, um, present boundaries, knowing how far to lean in and when to to lean out, as I'm sure you have to navigating your journey now as a mama and a podcaster and a wife and all the other hats that you wear.
Yeah, we've spoken a lot in this chat about helping others go through their struggles and how to kind of dive deeper into those conversations, but I want to kind of put the shoe on the other foot. And yeah, as an example, I've just had a baby. Obviously, it's
something that I've wanted for my whole life. We've tried for five years, and I went through a fairly traumatic experience post birth with a lot of blood loss, and I remember getting back to my hospital room after being released from ICU and getting in there with Paul and like looking at my baby and just literally bawling my eyes out. Like it actually makes me like teary thinking about it. And I spent like the first week of post-birth, swear to God, like crying and crying and crying and crying.
And I would speak to people on the phone and family and friends, and I would be like, oh my God, I am so obsessed with my baby. She's the best thing in the world. But I literally cannot stop crying. And I think, obviously there's this whole massive hormonal shift that women go through post-birth. But I felt like this weird. In my mind. I was just thinking, this is all you've ever wanted. Like, you should be so freaking happy right now. Why am I so sad? Like, why can't
I stop crying? And you know, everyone wants to help. And everyone was there to put their hand out and say, you know, let's talk about this. But from my point of view, I was like, yes, I knew I needed to speak about it, and yes, I knew I needed to get help. But when you're in that moment, you're like, I couldn't fucking think of anything worse than having to deal with other people right now when you're so deep in that yourself. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but I guess it was.
Like a ton of.
Sense. I guess it was like I was going through a bit of a bout of baby blues, and I completely empathise with people that suffer from postnatal depression, because I never really understood it when I didn't have a baby, because I was always like, you've got the baby. So like, how could you have depression? Or how could you be sad when you've got this miracle? And it fricking happened to me and you know it. I even said to Elody, I was like, I think I'm depressed. Like, I think
I'm actually depressed. I'm going through this. I don't I actually don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and I think from understanding, when I put out saying that I was going to talk to you and, and I was saying to people, have you got any questions in the mental health space? And I am so sad looking at how many women have come to me to ask questions
about postnatal. Not even it's not actually the person trying to what we've just spoken about trying to help someone with postnatal depression or baby blues or any of that. It's actually women asking, how the fuck do I help myself? And like, can we talk about this?
Well, first of all, what came up for me as you were sharing that experience was when you said, crying, crying, crying. I heard grieving, grieving, grieving.
Mhm.
I heard your nervous system crying out with relief that this fear, this battle, this nightmare is over. Right. When my friends and Olympian and I said, what emotion occurred when you crossed the line and you won gold. And I was expecting it was to be like ecstasy, joy, elation. And it was relief. It was the removal of negative, not the presence of positive that shone brightly in that moment. Right.
So what? Before your body and your brain and your heart can be happy, it first needs to celebrate the pain that's been removed. So what? That those tears were was like a someone winning Olympics. This is my whole
life has been geared. The sacrifice that you did with the, you know, leading up to that, the hormones, the tension that put on the relationship with Paul, I imagine, and your family and your career planning and your future and all that shit culminates when you hold this child and you say, finally, I am blessed with this miracle, and
it was worth it. But there's still so many parts inside, you know, that were holding the fucking tent together with fucking elastic bands and band aids, whilst you had to go and be an adult and deliver this baby. And it's like, okay, now we can fall apart.
Yeah. And I think that's just that it being an adult and delivering this baby, and then all of a sudden you're just so broken and so like exactly what you just said. Relieved. But then you're like trying to care for this newborn. But there's still so much going on, and I think I even am getting teary talking to you about it because, like, it's bringing back so many emotions,
just going, why was I like that? And I still it must be that I still have so much underlying grief from the miscarriages and from like, I don't know, I just just like exactly what we were just saying, how it's like created a bit of a mess. And I think that like, it's this whole conversation is like muddled my waters a little bit because I'm like, fuck, I have really just like pushed this all down and you don't really have time to, like, let this stuff surface.
As a mother, when you are caring for a newborn because it really is full time. But you do have these moments in these conversations and like what I'm having with you right now, just going, nah, fuck. I have gone through a lot, actually. And you have. There's so much still. And do you think it's important for people like myself or not even just people that haven't gone through a lot? Do you think that it's important to
put everything aside sometimes and do some work on yourself constantly? Like, do you think that that's important?
Look, I this is going to be the lamest answer because I'm going to keep coming back to the answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. I think there's a time in life where you need to compartmentalize, put shit aside and press on. Yeah. Um, like as much as I'm a fan of, like, I'm the heart on my sleeve guy, I'm fucking more emotions based than most dudes I know. But still, I'm also one of the most resilient people I know. And when I need
to drive, I'll drive hard. I also think there's a time when you need to put reality, and all the practical shit and the job and everything aside, and heal so that you don't bleed on people that didn't cut you. First and foremost, and for yourself and your own worthiness to feel happy, you need to do some deep healing at times. And I think it's knowing which season am I in? Am I in like get shit done season right now or am I in like slowing down and
like tying some loose ends? It's not summer always. You know, there's reasons why the universe goes through four different cycles, like so much of life is a rhythm, and it's about finding equilibrium between two sides. And what I think is coming up for you now is you've had the baby. A lot's happen. The pod, you're still traveling, you're in another country right now and and your nervous system is like, cool, we can do that. We can push. So long as
you also give me time to feel and grieve. And it doesn't mean that that that moment says that you're now in a sad chapter again, it's just releasing some of those stored memories and and heartaches that parts of you are still holding to be true. And it's kind of like updating the software to say it's time to let go now, because we've been blessed with a new reality that we can live in.
Mhm.
Yeah. It's because I think I used to be so good at it. I really prided myself in helping myself, you know, in after, before Bobby came along. That's what I really, you know, I want to get out there to help people. I want to have these hard conversations. I'm going I'm doing a lot of self-care. I'm meditating, which I haven't meditated once since Bobby was born, and I was. So he'd be stoked. He would be. He wouldn't be. He would not be happy with me saying that.
But yeah, I was like that. I was so good at that in the past. And I feel like now that I've got Bobby and I feel like a lot of other women out there could probably resonate. Your whole life is just like dedicated to them in a way, and you've really put yourself aside. And I, I genuinely hand to my heart, don't know where right now I would find the time to do me if I was real. Like, I feel like I've evolved and I've, like, grown a lot and I've. And I'm so much better than I
was immediately post-birth right now. So I'm actually feeling okay. I think that I was just had a little bit of a moment just then, but, um, yeah. Where like if I was still in those trenches where I was a few weeks ago, and you do have this newborn and you do have a chaotic life, and I'm trying to slow down a bit now that I'm here in Ibiza and I do have time to slow down, but some women don't have that. And I'm like, how? How do these women, what are some ways that these women
can help themselves in amongst this chaos? Like, you know, you talk about human connection and having these conversations like who are they going to? I actually had this conversation with a girlfriend the other day who had had a baby a few weeks before me, and I said, you know, how are you going? And I'd only just had the capacity to even ask her how she was going, because I was just in this like, trench and she was just boundaries. She was just like, oh my God, it
was so hard. My partner wasn't even able to take time off work. I didn't have any family or friends around. And I was just thinking, oh my God, I'm the worst fucking friend for a start. How lucky am I that I did have family and friends around me? How the fuck would I have coped without my tribe around me? And this poor friend did that all alone. And I'm just thinking, oh my God, that is just it is so sad and I just have so much like, I guess empathy is the word for women and families that
go through this without the help. But I guess where I was going with that question at the start, like how do women, where do they go for help? How do they ask for help? Who are they going to for help? Like help me help them right now?
Yeah. Well, seeing as you asked, I will give advice because usually I would just land that and say, yes, you are. You have a lot on and that's that's a lot. And I can see that you're feeling confused and you're working through it. And that would be enough, because I trust in your ability to know that you will work through this. This is a new thing. Just like any new thing, you will find your feet. I
have absolutely no doubt. And given the values of and the behaviors you've demonstrated previously of tenacity and perseverance and care, you will thrive in terms of how other people do that. Look, my my heart bleeds for them as well. I think sometimes I get in a loop around how is life fair? Like, I still keep in touch with my ex-girlfriend and something happened with her recently that was just so unfair, and watching my dad be brought to his knees when he's
a good guy and doesn't deserve that. It's unfair. And and, you know, watching the wars break out. And there are times when I personally struggle with the existential acceptance that life can be fucking cruel sometimes. I deal with that by trying to turn as much pain into meaning and purpose,
by giving back to others as I can. But there are some things that are just shit, and so I think it's first, if you are in that position, letting yourself feel whatever you need to feel about that, whether that's I'm angry that I'm doing this on my own. You don't have to be in your full, rational mind all the time to be like, no, but I'm also grateful for this. That's going to come next. Right. You can go tidy up the mess in a second. I
had a friend to use a story. She had such bad autoimmune issue that she would spend six plus months a year in hospital, and this has been happening since she was a teenager. She's unfortunately no longer with us, but I would go in to visit her in hospital and I'd ask like, how do you fight? Aren't you tired? And she's like, yeah, I'm fucking tired. But I have a pity party. Every so often I'll throw my fucking
toys out of the cart. I'll look up at God and be like, you're not fucking real, because no one would let this happen. Because I'm actually an ambulance driver outside of this, and I'm sitting here in a hospital. This is just not okay. And then I once I felt it, I get up in bed again and I push on and I take an inventory of what strengths I do have, and I focus on the positive and
I go, that's the yin to the yang. You know, you allow yourself to have a moment of whatever that moment looks like so that your nervous system can purge. Then you have space and capacity to come back into the wise mind and kind of pave a way forward. So don't deny yourself of what's true, I think, is the first step. Second step is reaching out to people who you trust, and that can have a real conversation
with you and hold that space. And they're not scared of hearing the darkness and that they'll sit with you in it. And if you don't have one of those people, then thankfully there are resources like lifeline and and therapy
that can help you work through that. The third thing I would say is be patient, especially in that example of of postnatal, as someone who's researched it and, and has have friends in it, by no means is this my specialty, but chemistry is going to have a massive part to play here that will normalize with time, and it may or may not also require medical interventions and help.
But I'm sure you can relate to you know, you alluded to perhaps a mild version of it when you're in it, whether it's this or something else, you swear it's going to last forever and that you can't see the clouds for the sky. You know, it now feels like the clouds have always been the sky. And now it's forever going to be like this. And I think, if nothing else, just know this too shall pass.
I say that a lot. I say that a lot. And it's really it was really hard to be in that position because I did. I have known a few people with postnatal depression when I was trying to conceive, and I was always just like, I just don't get it. Like how you've got you've got everything, you've got your baby, you've got a home, you travel like I've known a few people that are like that. And I'm like, how can you actually be depressed right now? But it's so
weird when you say it. That's a chemical situation happening. I fully believe that now because like, I essentially was that person. And I also am finding it really difficult to have these chats on this podcast because a lot of our listeners are trying to conceive and I feel like, yeah, I feel so guilty talking about being so sad post having a baby when I was always like, I would always see people online, you know? And I'd be like,
don't ever complain. Don't ever complain about having the baby because there's so many people out there that are, um, trying to conceive. And I just feel like the biggest hypocrite. Like, literally, I it breaks my fucking heart. No, it doesn't break. Well, it does break my heart, but it also, I feel so fucking guilty saying this in this space when I know there's so many of you out there that are like, own, that listen to us because they're struggling. And then here
I am. I've struggled, I've done this struggle, I've had the baby and now I'm on the other side going, this is really hard. And I'm I'm not coping that well. And I've got the baby. I don't know, it's so weird. It's and I yeah. And I am so sorry to those people out there listening just going, you're a fucking you're shit. I can't believe you're doing this because it's.
I don't think anyone's thinking that.
I'm just trying to be honest and try to be like, this happens like, fuck, it's wild.
Look, it makes sense that you're that you're feeling guilty, right? Because you were in those shoes for so long and and you would have given anything to be there. And now that you are here and you're feeling what you didn't expect to, you're coming to terms with how you reconcile being honest with also being grateful in a role model for what you needed at the time. Full stop. We're on a podcast, so I'll go on to give
advice like my $0.02. Um, my $0.02 there is that like, you know, Brene Brown, who's someone I respect a lot. She talks about comparative suffering and how it doesn't serve anyone. You know, you're allowed to feel whatever you have and also be grateful for what you know. They don't have to cancel out each other. There's not this like, you know, zero sum equation where I can only feel that or that if someone else is happy, therefore I can't be as happy or no, fuck that. It can all be true.
You can feel different to how you expected. Happy, sometimes. Sad, guilty. And all those things at the same time. And I think what people value the most is honesty around integrating all those different perspectives.
Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard to try to learn that juggle and. Yeah, and I do. I probably shouldn't apologise, but I do apologise for all those women out there because I definitely I know that I was always saying so much stuff about don't ever complain and here I am, so here we are. But that this chat has been so amazing and I think it's helped.
So it's going to help so, so many people because this chat and from opening up the the chats on our socials last night, I've really become aware of you kind of just get lost in your own world for a second and you forget about other people and other people's struggles. And I did want to close this podcast
out by answering a dear darlings for you all. And there are so many really important questions and topics that have been asked, and I think that we might do a bit of a part two bonus episode, um, for you guys at a later date, but let's just. Are you okay to answer two questions right now? Absolutely. That I think this one actually stood out to me the most.
And and this person has said, what do you do when you're going through something really big, like cancer and a lot of friends disappear or don't acknowledge what you're going through?
Yeah. Gosh, isn't that like a poetic place to, um, start to journey into the end of this, um, this chat because it picks up on so many threads that we've hit on. Right? It's not about you like that? If you're ghosting someone for a cancer diagnosis, you need to look in the mirror. Because we must be able to build the capacity to be there for people in moments where no one deserves to be alone. And if
we can't, then we've got to go figure out how. Like, of course, there are times in our life where we are absolutely maxed out. And you mentioned one before. I'm kind of constantly ebbing and flowing between being like, if I go and help another person, I'm going to go off the deep end, so I need to pull back.
But if if someone feels ghosted, whereby a whole network of people are opting out, that's like if that's considering that some people are having a bad day, everyone's not having a bad day and is at full max capacity. It means that their network is being really rigid and closed down, and so walk up to the mate with cancer and say, I don't know what to say, I'm fucking sorry this has happened. Here's a bench. I'm here to listen, and I won't say a word if you
don't want me to. That's like. That's fucking courage. And that person would respect that 100 times more than you not having the perfect thing to say. Just be honest and say I give a fuck and you're not alone. Like ghosting someone because of your own insecurities when you have capacity to give is not acceptable in my opinion.
And being the person with cancer, how do they go about this when their friends are kind of ghosting? Do you think that they should reach out to them, or should they look elsewhere? And you know, they've got their core friendship group? I mean, I'm just making this as an example, but if they've got their core friendship group that aren't serving them, where else do they go when they really fucking need someone to talk to or a shoulder to cry on?
Yeah, I think then if I was in that situation, I would go to specific support groups for that issue, because if you're feeling that isolated, alone and misunderstood, you need to quickly remedy that and overcorrect to like hyper understanding. So I would go then to a cancer support group.
Yeah.
Yeah, I actually leant on a lot of that when I was going through my fertility struggles going. There's so many Facebook groups out there that they get it and they talk about it 24 over seven. And even if you don't want to be asking the questions, I can guarantee you someone else is going to ask the question very quickly on there because it constantly they're evolving. And then there's so many comments and people trying to, you know, help and offer advice. And yeah, I think that that's
a really good one as well. Okay. The last question that someone's written in was how do I answer the question, how are you? When I'm struggling with my mental health. I'm in the fertility trenches, but I don't want to burden my friends and family. I really want to be honest with the struggle and explain why I've been so withdrawn, but I'm not sure how.
Yeah. Great question. So for this one I'd say person, place and time. So check in with yourself and be like, is this someone person wise that can genuinely hold space for more than just a tick the box answer? Can I truly get real? Second is, is this the right place? Third is is this the right time? And you need three of three. And in those moments, if someone says, how are you and you feel fraudulent, saying, I'm good if you're not. Say, there's some stuff going on, now
is probably not the right time. If you are interested and you have capacity, then we'd love to check in with you. When we both have some headspace to be able to get into it properly. But I'm, I'm I'm seeking support and I'm doing okay for now.
And then what happens if they do want to talk about it though?
And if you are also happy to talk about it with them and you consent to that, then allow them to organize that time and place, and you be an active member in participating in that. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. The questions are so hard. But like you said, you've got to be a big boy and just go go in for the the eye of the storm. It's scary. And I think as well, in answer to this person's question, just from my experience, how they're saying, how do you answer that question? How are you when you are struggling? I think you don't actually have to be strong, like you don't have to be withdrawn. And I think I know that naturally you want to be away. It's super important.
And from my experience and like, I don't want to be flipping this on me, but I'm just trying to give an example like, yeah, please, you do need to find that person. And for that person for me is generally elody sometimes it's not even Paul. Elody is like my rock. She's like my emotional support animal. Vice versa. We we definitely deal with things completely differently like she will. A lot of the time, bottle things up and keep things internal because that's how she copes and that's her
coping mechanism and sometimes her bucket. And like what Cooper likes to say, he's your bucket gets full and full and full and full until it to the point where you do need to sit down with someone and you are at the verge of breaking. Whereas me personally, I like to get it out straight away and she's my person. That if I'm not doing well, I don't even need to say anything to her. Like I'll pick up the phone and I'll just end up in tears. And she's like, okay,
let's sit down what's going on? And I'll let her know straight away. So it's it's all relative to the context and how you're feeling at the time and finding that one person. And like you said earlier, like if you don't have that one person, there are so many places that you can go for help. There's help lines will actually list. I'll list a bunch of them in the show notes. So if you are listening and you don't have your person, please reach out and get help
from these different. There's hotlines, there's chats. If you don't want to speak to someone on the phone, there's there's so many different ways that you can get help and feel heard and people with experience to help you back. Um, so I just really want to say thank you so much, Mitch, for, by the way, I'm going to get your book. I haven't read it, but I would love to read your book.
We'll get you a copy for sure.
To get it on my Kindle.
Absolutely.
Um, I will also put a link in our show notes as well. For anyone that wants to read Mitch's book, you can follow him on Instagram. We'll link his Instagram. It's at Mitch Dot Wallace w a l l I s. He's also got a podcast. You can listen to his podcast, but I've linked everything in the show notes and I really, honestly appreciate you so much. Mitch. And I knew this conversation was going to be great, but I think it's it's over exceeded my expectations. And yeah, I really appreciate
you coming on here. So thanks so much.
My absolute pleasure. And thanks for being such a authentic and bright spirit in the world. I think we need more people like you, and it's been an honor to to hang out with you for an hour or so.
Oh, you're amazing. And I will definitely come back to this, everyone. And if you have any other questions that you would like us to touch on, please email us. Probably get lost on Instagram. So email me at hello darling Shine.com and we'll make sure we add that to our list. And thank you guys or thank you Mitch and we hope you guys really enjoyed that chat.
Oh we're always.