Hi everyone. Welcome back to logical Bible study. Thanks again for tuning in. This is the podcast where we take a look at the Gospel reading from today's mass, we try to really pull it apart in the sense of doing a verse by verse exegesis of the text. We're always faithful to the teaching of the magisterium and we're trying to engage with the best scholarship to help. Us understand what Jesus meant in his original context. We have a longer reading today, so we'll get straight into it.
Luke chapter 17 verses 26 to 37. Jesus said to the disciples as it was in Noah's day. So we'll also be in the days of the son of man. People were eating and drinking marrying wives and husbands. Right? Up to the day, Noah went into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them, all it will. The same as it was in Lots day, people were eating and drinking buying and selling planting and building. But the day that lot left. Sodom God, rained fire and brimstone from heaven and
destroyed them all. It will be the same when the day comes for the son of man to be revealed. When that day comes anyone on the housetop with his possessions in the house must not come down to collect them, nor must anyone in the fields turned back either. Either remember, Lot's wife anyone who tries to preserve his life will lose it and anyone who loses it will keep it safe. I tell you on that night, two will be in one bed. One will be taken the other left.
Two women will be grinding corn together. One will be taken the other left. the disciples interrupted where Lord, they asked he said, where the body is there to the vultures will gather Now, I want to say up front, this particular reading is very difficult in many ways Scholars. Both Evangelical, Protestant Catholic Orthodox. All have very different opinions about it. Even within amongst Catholic college, scholarship itself.
Very Orthodox conservative Scholars, have different views about how to, how to understand, Luke 17. There's lots of textual difficulties with it. Some of the phrases can be artist understood in multiple ways. It looks like, either Matthew or Luke has placed some I'm of the phrases in different contexts than when Jesus might have originally said them. So, for all these reasons, it's not entirely clear.
What Jesus means we can really only come up with theories and work out what the best one might be. So, I'm going to present my view when I look at the evidence. What I think the best interpretation of most of these verses is, but I should say up front, you're free to disagree with this, some of the interpretations. I'll offer. I'm not 100% confident of there's certainly, Part of this that can be understood in different ways, but we'll do our best.
So what's the context? Jesus is moving From Galilee to Judea. He's getting towards the Final Phase of his ministry and he's doing Ministry along the way and he's speaking to the crowds now in the reading yesterday.
So, in the section just before this, he has just begun the first eschatological discourse about the end times, or about the end of the age and in that section yesterday, his confirmed that there would indeed be a day of the Sun. Of man, eventually when the kingdom of God will be manifested clearly, but this would not take place until the Messiah has suffered first, and it's well worth listening to yesterday's episode first, because that's the first half of
this speech that sets up today's reading. So we're looking today to passage where Jesus is clearly predicting the future, something that's in the future from the time. He uttered at the question is how far in the future and Scholars are divided on it?
The big question and the big debate is In this passage is Jesus, talking about events that occur in ad 70 at his middle coming when the temple is destroyed and the jewish-roman war happens as a punishment of God, is he talking about that here or is Jesus talking about the second coming? You could argue either way people throughout history, people have gone, either way with it today, people go either
way. My view is that Jesus here is speaking primarily of AD 70. His speaking of things that have already happened in ad 70 but at the time he sang them, they haven't happened yet. And that's for one. Key reason In this passage Jesus repeatedly tells his disciples that when they see these things happening.
They should run for that reason. I don't think it can refer to the second coming because if If you think about it, when the second coming happens and I do believe, the second coming will happen that, there's some prophecies, which haven't been fulfilled yet. So, the second coming will happen one day, but it's sort of hard to see how you can outrun the second coming when it happens. So, it doesn't really make sense.
But here, Jesus tells his disciples, when this day comes whatever day it is that he's talking about. Don't trip that, will they? They should try to run. That's what he says you should try to run and get out of there as quick as possible. Why would Jesus say that if he's talking about Second Coming. It doesn't make a lot of sense. You can't outrun the second coming and if they're his disciples, what would they have to be afraid of?
Anyway, if it's his thinking about the second coming, when everyone is rewarded. So that's the main reason why. I don't think the second coming interpretation makes the best sense of this text. Let's start at verse 26. Jesus said to the disciples. So the audience here is important, he is speaking to those who follow him already. He's speaking to those who believe that he's the Messiah.
And that one day, there will be a day of judgment that the Messiah will bring about, and he says to them here, as it was in Noah's day, and as he's going to describe you what he means by Noah's day is during Noah's day, people were going about their normal lives. They were ignoring the warnings that the flood was coming. Apparently Noah was preaching to them about the flood and says, repent. The flood is coming, but they ignored him and then of course, the flood came and destroyed them.
All they were going about their daily lives. They did not expect the flood to happen. Jesus says, Is so will it also be in the days of the son of man? So Jesus is continuing here to describe the days of the son of man. That's what he was talking about in yesterday's episode in verses, 23 24, the days of the son of man, that's the time. When the Messiah will be Vindicated and his enemies will
be judged. So Jesus says that when that day comes the day of the son of man, when the Messiah appears as Victorious and judges his enemies, it will be like the days of Noah. Now in what sense will it be like the days of Noah? I've heard some pretty wild speculations about why Jesus says this. And they try to draw some very strange parallels between the time of Noah and the time of Jesus.
And that's why we should not do eisegesis, we don't want to read into the text, what we wanted to say, we have to let the text speak on its own terms and here. Jesus actually tells us what he means. He tells us in what sense the days of the son of man will be, like, the days of Noah. He is what he says in the days of Noah people were eating and drinking marrying wives and husbands. Right? Up to the day, Noah went into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all mr.
Watts, Jesus saying, he's saying that in the time of Noah people were going about their daily lives. They thinking, always find that God would protect them and they were ignoring the warnings from God's Messengers. But what? The flood did come one day and they were all destroyed. Jesus says the days of the son of man will be similar in that sense. And if we understand this to be the destruction of Jerusalem in ad 70 which is what I think he's talking about that.
Make sense. Jesus teaching here. Is that the destruction of Jerusalem will be sudden? And unexpected people won't think it will happen. The Jews will think, God will protect them, but then the temple was destroyed, it was sudden and unexpected, even though there are warnings of God's prophets. Right up until ad 70. So it is a pretty nice fit, a nice parallel with the days of Noah in that sense. And now, Jesus gives a second example. It will be the same as it was in Lots day.
So this is a second example of, a judgment of God from the Old Testament. You probably know the story when Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities they were known for their wickedness, and they were destroyed by God, that's in, Genesis 13. And again, Jesus says that in Lots day, people were eating and drinking. Buying and selling planting and building. So the image is that people were going about their daily business. They didn't think anything bad was going to happen but verse 29.
Jesus says but the day lot left. Sodom God, rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. So that's what happens in Genesis 13, the evil cities are destroyed. As soon as lot gets out, Some Scholars point out, there might be another interesting similarity here, between the Noah judgment, the lot judgment and AD 70. In all three cases, know a lot and the destruction of the temple in ad 70, the righteous,
get out of the area, first. So in Noah's case, Noah and his or God, wait until Noah and his family are preserved inside the ark before he sends the flood. In Lots case, he waits until lot is out of the city before he destroys the city. So God only pours out the judgment on the Evil, once his righteous people are protected, that seems to be the case in ad
70 as well. If you study that, that period of History carefully, Jesus. Apparently, if we understand the destruction of the temple, to be a punishment of God, God does not allow the Romans to invade and Destroy Jerusalem until all the Christians have fled out into the Wilderness. Apparently, by the time, the destruction of Jerusalem happens in ad 70. There's no Christians left in the city. That's what history seems.
Has to tell us. And that's because when we discussed this yesterday, elsewhere, in the gospels, Jesus tells them to be prepared and to flee when they see the armies coming, Verse 30, it will be the same when the day comes for the son of man to be revealed. So what is Jesus said so far? He says, when the son of man is revealed, when that day happens, when the Messiah is Vindicated, it will be sudden unexpected and people will be wiped out as a judgment by God.
If this sounds a bit strange in thinking that God is a god, punished the Jews in ad 70 by destroying the temple. If that seems a bit strange to you, keep in mind that God often uses foreign armies as instruments of his judgment. Think about the Old Testament over and over again. He uses armies whether Israel or Israel's enemies as instruments
of his own judgment. Against those who have been breaking his law over and over again, he sends Egypt against Israel and he says, Egypt will be an extension of My hand, he says the same Babylon. He says, Babylon will be my Messenger to bring judgment and sometimes he says the same of Israel in the Book of Joshua. When Israel wipes out the Canaanites, that's the basic idea God uses Israel to bring judgment on people. So here, he apparently does the same thing in ad, 70 to the Jews.
He brings the Romans as an instrument of his judgment against the Jewish people. Verse 31. When that day comes anyone on the housetop with his possessions in the house. Now, in that culture of this is literally how it worked, the housetops would be where people would socialize, they'd hang out and relax on the roofs of their house, whereas the actual possessions and the actual kind of living rooms and bedrooms, were in the house below.
So Jesus says, when that day comes the day of the son of man, anyone on the housetop must not come down to collect his possessions. Just anyone in the fields turned back either, these are instructions for Jesus disciples. He's telling his disciples what they should do when they realize the day of the son of man has come Jesus says that when Christians realize that day has come, they need to run and get out of a tower out of Jerusalem.
As far as possible. He describes this in more detail elsewhere and we'll look at this as Luke goes on. He specifically gives them Specific Instructions on where to go. Actually, so here the teaching is when you see The the day of the son of man coming, get out of there as soon as you can. Don't even go back into the house to get your possessions. Jesus, he was probably being quite literal. He's probably not exaggerating. He probably means when you see the army's coming, get out of
there. Don't go back into your house. And Jesus says, nor must anyone in the fields turned back either. So he says, even if you're working in the fields and you see the son of man coming in the form of the Roman armies, that's what he means by. When you see the son of man coming the Judgment of the Messiah in the form of the Roman armies. When you see the Roman armies coming over the hill, don't go
back home. If you're in the field, just run, get out to the Wilderness. This is Jesus instructions to his disciples. And then he says, remember Lot's wife. So the teaching here for Jesus disciples is Don't Turn back like Lot's wife did when you see the Judgment coming, she paid the price for turning back. Jesus says, if you turn back or if you're slow in getting out of the city, you too will be destroyed. That's the parallel. And I think the parallel works
pretty well. This is a teaching about what happens to Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is destroyed by God as a judgment on the Jewish people. Then he says in verse 33, anyone who tries to preserve his life will lose it. And anyone who loses it will keep it safe.
Now, a better translation, here might be something like this, whoever seeks to gain his life, will lose it, but whoever loses his life, will preserve it. Now, this phrase is used in different contexts in the gospels, Jesus seems to use it to mean different things, but hear what he's saying is, is seems to be talking about the literal life of the disciples, his literally saying, If you want to save your actual life,
you need to lose it in a sense. But if you try and save your life, if you try to guard your possessions if you become too worldly about guarding your life and your possessions then you're going to be killed. So if you try to preserve your goods on the day of the son of man, if you come back into your house and try to get your goods and preserve your worldly things and you stay in the house, you're going to be killed. That's the teaching he says don't try and come back for you
Goods on the other hand. If you're willing to forsake, your Your old life forsake, your house, forsake, your possessions and run, you'll be saved. That's the teaching has been quite literal here and that would match with other things. Jesus says, in the Gospel of Luke Jesus is constantly on about, you need to be willing to give up possessions and your life. For the sake of the Gospel will
hear Jesus says the same thing. He says, if you want to keep your life on the day of the son of man, you need to be willing to leave everything behind and flee Into the Wilderness. Jesus, in verse 34, he is now going to give some scenarios. It's where two people. So in each of the scenarios you have two people going about their daily business. One will be taken the other will be left. So, this is an interesting and this has been taken different
way. So let's start at the start of verse 34. Jesus says, I tell you on that night to will be in one bed, one will be taken the other left. Now, many Christians and you've probably heard this interpretation. Many Christians think that when Jesus says here, one will be taken and the other left, the, it's kind of like the Rapture Jesus is going to come back and Rapture away. All of his followers.
Those are the ones that will be taken where, as the bad people will, the wicked will be left behind. Now, the word behind is not actually in there, that's just the other left, and so, that's, that's an important key word here. I don't think that's the best interpretation in the context of what Jesus has just said about
the flood in Noah's day. And Sodom remember what happens in those stories, those who were taken in a sense, those are the ones who had killed or judged by God, they're taken away by God and those that are left. If left behind, if you like those that are left behind with a righteous, really who's left, at the end of the story of nowhere in the flood, it's Noah, Noah, the righteous is left. And then in the Three of lot in Sodom who's left after Sodom was destroyed, its lat the
righteous. So, if we continue on that model, then when Jesus says here, on that night to will be take, sorry, one will be taken the other left. Probably it means the wicked will be taken. At the righteous will be left. Now, some Scholars think there might be a reference to the Passover here. Remember, in the original Passover, people were either killed or spared so maybe if Jesus is going to use a similar model in D. Now here's he's very good to be
complicated. If Jesus is still speaking about 70 AD in what sense can we say that in 70 AD one? There'll be two in one bed, one will be taken and the other left. How can a person be taken and the person right next to them be left. Did that happen in 70 AD? Well, we can't be sure history is a bit incomplete here but some Scholars think yes, that is the way we should take this. So maybe it's that. When the Roman armies getting to the City and we know how the
Roman armies typically worked. Perhaps, what Jesus is saying here is that people will literally be going about their daily business. Some of them are we sleeping and the Romans burst into their house and they capture and kill people. They've sort of grab one person and kill them and they leave another one behind. This would be consistent with what the Romans did often. The Romans had a quota of the number of people, they wanted to
kill. And the number of people they wanted to leave in the city to sort of instill fear in them. So perhaps, this is what literally happened in 70 AD there. Come into people's houses or Fields, kill some and leave others. That was part of the brutality of the Romans.
So here, if that's the right interpretation, Jesus is basically saying to his disciples if you're laying in bed or if you're working in the field, when you see the Romans coming, get out of the city before the Romans, get to the city. Otherwise there's a good chance that you'll die. There's a good chance that you'll be one of the people that the Romans kill at random. So it seems here This is talking about the way that the Romans, as part of God's judgment are going to kill at random.
They're going to just in discriminately kill some and leave others behind now. If this seems like a bit of a strange view, it's the view that's taken by NT Wright. Who's probably one of the most famous New Testament, Scholars, whose written the most about the kingdom of God. And Jesus predictions about ad 70. So that's his view. He says that when Jesus says, one will be taken the other left. It's talking about how the Roman armies killed in. Discriminately and they left others behind.
Now, that's not entirely a perfect fit because in the Noah and lot model, basically, the righteous are saved in the wicked of killed. But here in ad 70, it looks like. Sometimes it's the righteous that are killed as well, if they don't get out of the city, however, we could say here that Jesus has warned the Christians. That if you're righteous, if you're a true follower of him, you will get out of the city before that happens and apparently, that's what they did.
Now, on this verse here, verse 34, it says on that night two will be in one bed and one will be taken the other left. It's sometimes on this podcast, it's good to talk about some other interpretations that you'll hear which are a really strange, but you will encounter them.
So some people and there are some translations, which actually put it this way, some translations have this as there will be two men in one bed and some gay activists have taken this to be a France to homosexual, men being in bed together. Jesus here is saying they'll be on that night. They'll be two men in one bed. It's a bit of a strange View. And it turns out that the Greek
he doesn't support this at all. If you look at the Greek version of this verse the Greek, you literally just says there will be two in one bed. That's all it says, and some Modern Bible translations to make it a bit clearer. In English. Have put the word, they'll be two men in one bed. Certainly the it's not like a sexual thing that's in view here. It's just Jesus saying that we too The asleep, one will be killed, and one won't be, and then he gives another example.
Verse 35, two women will be grinding corn together, one will be taken the other left, so we have the same basic idea here, both women, imagine the day in ad 70. When the Romans come over the hill to take this city, both women will be working on grinding corn. Keep in mind that they really didn't know what day the Romans were coming. They'd sort of been small skirmishes before them, but they could not literally predict the day, the Romans would come Over the hill, they didn't know.
So imagine this those two women working on grinding corn and then all of a sudden, the Romans burst into the room, although burst onto the farm and they take one of the women at random, this is the picture we get and that seems to be what happened on that day. Hopefully this is making sense to you and you can kind of visualize what happened in ad 70 and why Jesus is warning them. They need to get out of the city before them. Now in verse 36, most translations don't actually have verse 36.
Some ancient manuscripts do But here's what verse 36 says, it doesn't add a whole lot. It just says this, two men will be in the field. One will be taken and the other left. Now Matthews version of this, it does have this line and it would flow on with what Jesus said. Earlier about being out in the field, remember in the he said, if you're in the field on that day and you see the army's coming, get out of there. Otherwise the armies will get you. So it fits the same theme.
Certainly That's all Jesus has to say about this at this point, but then in verse 37, the disciples interrupted that's what our translation says, all. That really says in the original is they said to him. So we shouldn't imagine that they suddenly interrupted him mid-speech, that doesn't seem to be the case. They just asked him a question. This is the question as Luke puts it, where Lord now it's not entirely clear what the disciples are asking.
Where about literally all it says, here is they say to Jesus where Lord? So this Could mean one of two things? The disciples he could be asking either Jesus. Where will this judgment take place? Or maybe, they could be asking, where will those who were taken be taken to? Because he's just been talking about taking some people away. So, maybe it's a question of where they're going to be taken to and so either of those might be the right interpretation
notice. Jesus answer though, he says, where the body is there to will. The vultures gather this has been taken in lots of different ways. Some have taken it in a very graphic way as in on that day. There's literally going to be Eagles, hovering around the corpses and certainly there were a lot of corpses in ad 70. So, maybe Jesus is saying that after it's all said and done, they'll be lots of eagles hanging around the bodies that could actually be right. We can't rule that out.
And some have even taken it a different way. Some have taken it as a reference to the Rapture as in, on that day. Jesus is apparently that if you take this, as the second coming, Jesus will gather all the Christians to himself, they'll all sort of float up in the air, to be with Jesus. And in that sense, Jesus body is what's in view where Jesus body is there, the vultures will gather and the, vultures here would represent, Christians. I don't think that's a good interpretation.
I think in context, this is probably a Hebrew metaphor Hebrew. Idiom remember. Jesus, here is answering the question, where Lord, right. That's the question. I posed to him. And Jesus answer is where the body. Is there to the vultures will gather. I think this is probably best understood as a Jewish idiom, which means something like this, the location will be obvious.
So, in that time in the time of Jesus, if you solve vultures gathering around the certain area, if you saw them sort of hovering around a field, then you would know there's probably bodies at that place in the distance. So I think this Where the body is there to the vultures will gather. It's just a Jewish metaphor. That means the location will be obvious. If that's the right interpretation.
Jesus is basically saying this in answer to their question of where Lord, he's saying the judgment will be obvious because everyone will see it in the events associated with the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus gets more explicit with this. In Luke Chapter, 19, Verse 43 and 21:10. So he's going to revisit this theme of the destruction of The temple. Now, there's one more aspect of this line, which is worth mentioning where the body is there.
The vultures will gather, or you can translate that Eagles, will gather interestingly, the Roman armies in this time period, when they marched into battle, they had a big banner with an eagle on it. So maybe Jesus is literally referring to the Roman Eagle, that's certainly possible as well. So that's all in our text today. Jesus revisits these themes and he gets even more explicit about it in chapter 21 Jesus. More to say about the
destruction of the temple. And we'll look at that when we get there. Hopefully, I know we've gone through this in a bit of depth and really gotten into the nitty-gritty of Prophecy here, but I think it's important, we do that because even amongst Catholics there's some really wild views about Jesus views of the end of the world and I think a lot of it is best understood as referring to ad 70.
Not necessarily all of us. And of course, God works in pattern so he could do the same again at the end of the world. But primarily here, it looks like Jesus. Is warning his disciples about the events that will take place in ad 70. And he tells them, they need to get out as quick as they can. Otherwise, they could be killed along with the rest of the Jews in the city. Let's quickly turn to the catechism before you finish. Today there's one key paragraph here where there's a reference
to Luke chapter 17 paragraph. 1889, this is in the section about conversion and Society. It's an interesting application, says, charity is the Social commandment it, respects, others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires, a life of self giving.
Whoever seeks to gain his life, will lose it, but whoever loses his life, will preserve it. So here in the original text in Luke's text, as we set in this exegesis that line, whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it. Whoever loses his life will preserve it. It's probably about, literally saving your life. By running out of the city. His, it's a very specific application. But here, the catechism sees a possible deeper spiritual reality here.
Maybe when Jesus says, whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life, will preserve it. He's talking about giving yourself away for the kingdom giving yourself away, spiritually. And in the context of this part of her catechism. It's about love, loving others. Giving yourself away in love.
Certainly. There are other places in the gospels where Jesus uses this phrase to refer, to Losing your life for the sake of the Kingdom as in giving yourself away, spiritually for the sake of the kingdom and he does use that in other contexts, even if he doesn't mean that exactly here. So we'll finish it there for today.
If you have others in your life who were interested in Prophecy and who might be interested in the interpretation that's been offered here as we've moved through verse by verse please, share it with them and will continue to look at Luke. In the coming days. We have a bit of a break from this heavy prophecy stuff as we move into Luke, Chapter 18.