Hi everyone. Welcome back to the logical. Bible study podcast. And today, we're looking at a really interesting passage that I think shows us the importance of doing exegesis, because if we don't do exegesis on passages like this one, we're going to be really struggling to see what Jesus is trying to teach us in the gospels. So, we're looking today to really controversial parable of Jesus called the rich man and Lazarus. so, we're looking at Luke 16:19-31, Jesus said to the Pharisees.
There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen, and feast magnificently every day. And at his gate there, lay a poor man named Lazarus covered with sores, who longed to fill himself with the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. Dogs even came and licked his sores. Now, the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to the bosom of Abraham, The rich
man also died and was buried. In his torment, in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his bosom. So he cried out, Father, Abraham, pity me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool. My tongue for I am in agony in these flames. My son Abraham replied. Remember the during your life. Good things came your way, just as bad things came the way of Lazarus. Now, he's being comforted here while you were in agony.
But that is not all between us and you a great golf has been fixed to stop anyone. If he wanted to Crossing from our side to yours and to stop any Crossing from your side, two hours. The rich man replied. Father I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house since I have five brothers to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of Torment too. They have Moses and the prophets said Abraham, let them listen to
them. Are no Father. Abraham said the rich man, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent. Then Abraham said to him, if they will not listen to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead. So that's our passage for today. And this is one long Parable. So our exegesis here as whenever we do parables in this podcast, is we want to focus on the main point that Jesus is trying to
communicate to his audience. This particular paragraph has generated a lot of discussion throughout church history and certainly even up till today, particularly in terms of is Jesus, describing what the afterlife is really like, or is he just using sort of imagery the to make a general point and so we'll touch on some of that as we go. The main thing to say this point is that when Jesus is telling a parable, not every aspect of it is supposed to be taken.
Literally usually There's some sort of comparison or analogy. He wants his readers to take away from it. But the situation in the kingdom of God is not always exactly analogous in every respect to the picture that Jesus sets up in the parable. So we don't want to press it too. Hard to take every detail to literally. Particularly important with this Parable because it's one of the most confronting and difficult passages in the entire New Testament.
They'll be some things I say in this, in this exegesis, you might not agree with there would probably be some things that I'm wrong about in this exegesis. There's some things I'm not sure about in terms of how to understand it. I think sometimes I might not be taking part of it, literally enough. Maybe in some ways, it might be taking it too. Literally, who knows you be the judge and we'll try and go through it together. So a couple of things we have to say about the context of this
Parable up front. So where does Jesus say this? In terms of his his timeline and his teaching. So Jesus says this particular Parable in the context of a number of other teachings that is just given about using money wisely for God's kingdom, rather than selfishly. So Jesus has been criticizing the Pharisees because they love money and they use money selfishly, that's in Luke chapter. 15 and 16. So that's a really important context. We have to keep that in mind.
The point of this Parable is not primarily about the afterlife. Although certainly that's part of its actually primarily about money. So we keep that in mind, that's that will help. Secondly, we need to think about what the Jewish view of the world was at this time. So it appears, we can't be sure, but it appears that before Jesus died on the cross, the afterlife worked a bit.
Currently people didn't go to heaven and hell as such as Christians, we believe that when Jesus died on the cross, he opened the way to heaven. So before then people couldn't really access heaven in the same way that they could after Jesus death, that's a Christian teaching. So when people died, when good people died before Jesus, they didn't go to heaven, they went somewhere else and the Jews understood Things to work like this.
Now, the Jews view probably wasn't exactly accurate, but this is based on a number of Old Testament passages. This is how they figure that it worked. They believe that when a person dies, whether a good person or a bad person, the soul would be carried away either by Angels or maybe not by angels to a place called sheol or Hades. So those two words mean the same thing she oh Lord Hades both the good and the bad went there, everyone went there after they
died. The only exception to that would be people like Elijah, who's body? Got taken straight up into the Heavenly Throne Room, everyone else. Even presumably people like King David would have gone to she ol. From there, if the person has found favor with God, they would spend their eternity in what's called Abraham's bosom and bosom just means side. So, by the side of Abraham being comforted the, so this is for
the good people. They get comforted in the good part of she ol in the Abraham's bosom, part of sheol. And if they've lived a bad life and they've displeased God, they were go to another part of she'll where there would be tormented Both of these places are in Hades but so they're both kind of compartments of the same realm called Hades and between the two Realms was this great value or Great Golf so that people couldn't cross from one side to the other.
So that's how the Jews believed that it worked. Is that exactly how it worked. Maybe, maybe not we're not sure. But that's the best we have to go with Jay. God didn't give them all the information about the afterlife in the Old Testament. He only gave them a little bit, so we're not sure if this is entirely how it worked or not. We do know according to the teaching of the church though that when Jesus died in the three days between his death and Resurrection, this is where he went.
He did go to Hades so Hades does exist. But how exactly the compartments work is still a bit of a mystery? Now, this Parable, we're looking at, does not refer to the day of General judgment, which hasn't happened yet. So there will be some sort of day in the future when God will call everyone to judgment and that will be, you know, the day of final judgment whenever I'm receives their rewards. So that's described in the parable of the sheep and the goats, this is talking about a
different judgment. We're talking here about what's called the particular judgment which occurs immediately after a person dies. So, after a person dies, their soul, Straight away either goes to the good place or the bad place. And that's what this particular Parable is talking about. So it's the Judgment of individual Souls straight after they die. So verse 9, Jesus said sorry verse 19. Jesus said to the Pharisees. Now, this is important who's
Jesus audience here. It's the Pharisees that helps us work out what his main point is. So five verses earlier than this in verse 14 of Luke chapter, 19. Sorry, Luke chapter 16, where in verse 14 it specifically says the Pharisees are lovers of money. That's that's exactly what Luke says, the Pharisees are lovers of money and the verse before that verse 13 Jesus says you cannot love God and money. So we're right in this section here that deals with money.
Jesus is directing the parable at the Pharisees because they're lovers of money. So here's what he says, there was a rich man. Now, this is an imaginary rich man. Probably not supposed to be a Pharisee. The Pharisees are not supposed to see them self as the rich man. And the reason for that is probably because Pharisees weren't exactly Rich. They didn't have a whole lot of money. They did like money, but they weren't Rich, whereas the Sadducees were quite Rich.
So we're just thinking of a generic rich person here and he's probably warning the Pharisees that they don't want to end up like Like this rich man and if they keep going down the path of they're going, they could end up the way of this rich man. So he hasn't got a name in the
parable. Although, later Christian tradition would call This Man, dive, he's div es and that just means Rich. So if you see that word IVs, that's the name that later tradition has given to this imaginary Richmond. There was a rich man clothed in purple and linen and feasted magnificently every day. So this is a man who has the very best of everything every
single day. He's probably a good example of if you remember the parable of the sower and there's four different types of soil, one of the types of soil was the area that's choked by the riches and pleasures of life that's in chapter 8 of Luke. So I think he's a good example of that. Interestingly earlier Jesus had described Herod Antipas, the king of in the area at the time. Using similar language. He says the king likes to feasts magnificently everyday. That's in chapter 7 of Luke.
At his gate, lay a poor man. Do it was someone somewhat common in that culture to have very poor people that were sort of laying on the streets if they didn't have anyone to look after them. The fact that he's laying in this Parable suggest that he might be lame. He can't walk. And this case notice his at the man's gate. Now, we shouldn't think of this.
It's pretty easy to Picture This in terms of 21st century Gates as in like, you know, the gate to the President's White House or something, where there's a long driveway and then there's the gate separating the house. That's not what we're talking about here. There wouldn't be a long driveway, the poor man would be able to see the rich man. He's probably only a couple of meters away through the window and vice versa so they can see each other.
The poor man is right in the rich man's line of sight. This is the key thing. Every day, he sees this poor man, every day he sees that the poor man needs food. We did doesn't do anything about it. He has no excuse, he's choosing not to feed this poor man who obviously needs his help. So who are going to set up a parallel to this today, we're pretty much talking about a poor man sitting outside our own front door and we see him there
every single day. That would be a parallel situation just to get a feel for, you know, the kind of selfishness that Jesus is talking about. So the poor man's name is Lazarus. Now, a lot has been said about this because in Parables, Jesus doesn't name people. This is the only Parable Jesus
tells where the guy has a name. And for that reason, some people think Jesus is not telling a parable, he's actually telling a true story of a real event that did occur in the afterlife with a real guy called Lazarus. It's possible but I think in the context it's more reasonable to think this is still a parable. It's just that Jesus has chosen the name Lazarus because it must
have some significance. What some people have suggested is that because Lazarus is a derivative of the name alireza, there could be something in that because in the Old Testament, Abraham literally had a servant whose name was Eleazar. The so that's in Genesis chapter 15 and we're soon going to be introduced to Abraham in this story and it turns out that Lazarus is basically Abraham's servant. So that's one speculation about. Why?
The rich man is called Lazarus, potentially could also be a reference to the fact that Jesus does raised a man from the dead called Lazarus. Although the connection between those two is not as clear. So he's covered with sores. So he might have some sort of skin condition, meaning his, you know, the lowest of the low. He's a real outcast in society.
Jesus here is setting up a picture of extreme richness and selfishness being contrasted with the very lowest of the low in society verse 21. He longed to feel himself with the scraps that fell from the rich man's table, so he can probably look through the guys window and can see him feasting every single day and he just Longs for evenness. Proper food. Now, this is going to contrast interestingly with what happens later because the rich man is
going to, sorry. Instead of in this case, we have Lazarus longing for something. From the rich man, later in the parable, the rich man is going to long for something from Lazarus. Dogs even came and licked his sores. So here's the most humiliated person in society. Basically, even the dogs are licking, his saws, verse 23, eventually the poor man died and was carried away by angels to the bosom of Abraham.
So his soul is taken to what's considered to be the place of comfort for the Jews. Now, he doesn't go to the good place because he's poor. Let's keep that in mind. The parrot point in the parable is not. If you're rich, you go to hell. If you're poor, you go to heaven, the reason Lazarus. Is to the good place here is because he is righteous, and he suffers his self is in a righteous way, not because he's poor. The rich man also died, and was buried.
So, apparently, no Angels. Help the rich, man. He just dies and goes to the bad place. So, now we enter into the part of the parable. That's been the subject of a lot of debate because it's not clear to the extent. That Jesus is Jesus affirming that this is the way the afterlife actually worked in his time. Is he / trying a picture of what the good place in the bad place actually look like or is he just tapped? Into the common Jewish way of thinking about it to make a point about money.
I think it's more likely to say, he's just making a general point and he knows that the Jews have a certain way of looking at the afterlife and he's tapping into that and he's not trying to affirm any specific detail. However it could be true that this is how the afterlife worked in his time. Certainly Certainly there would be a good place in a bad place that is that part is certainly, right. So in his torment in Hades. So here we learn that the the
wicked is in the wicked. People are in some sense tortured, even before the final Judgment Day, they're just here straight after their death or already being tortured and that's pretty significant. We shouldn't think that those who are evil aren't tortured until the final judgement day, they're already in a sense tortured as soon as their sole, you know, leaves their body. Now, it's not clear.
What kind of torture it is though, is this because he talks about Flames, is this a metaphor for Spiritual suffering, or does the person in the afterlife experience, some sort of bodily, physical suffering? We don't get an answer to that. So, in his torment in Hades, he looked and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his bosom. So the rich man is looking across, he can see the other compartment. He sees Abraham and Lazarus
hanging out there. And he says to Father, Abraham notice that God isn't in this Parable. He's actually talking to Abraham father Abraham, all Jews honored Abraham and considered him to be their father. So, he yells out and says, Father Abraham. Now, interestingly, if you read earlier, in Luke John, the Baptist had already warned the Jews that it's not sufficient to just call Abraham your father, and assume that you're going to get into the kingdom. He said, you have to produce.
Fruits are good. Fruits is evidence of repentance Which obviously this rich man hasn't so calling Abraham father is not going to mean anything, he says Pity Me. Now, notice what's going on here? This, the rich man is essentially praying to Abraham asking your request of Abraham his asking for the intercession of a dead person. So there could be a reference. Well, this could be used to support the Catholic, teaching on the intercession of those who have passed on.
Although of course it's a parable and we can't take it too. Literally. He says, send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool. My tongue for, I am in agony in these Flames. So the Jews believe that the torture in Hades could be compared to the torture of being burned. Now whether the Jews actually believe there was real flames in Hades, not clear. But they certainly thought the torture was like being burnt by Flames, so not pleasant. Notice that the rich man is not
asking. To actually doesn't even ask to come over to the good place. He seems to know full well that he's done the wrong thing and he belongs in the bad place, all he's asking for is just a momentary relief, just bring me even a small bit of water to put on my tongue so that indicates just how bad the torment must be. But Abraham replies, he says, my son's that's kind of a tender way of responding. My son. Remember that during your life, good things came your way.
So what Abraham appears to be saying to him here is I'm not going to allow you to have your tongue called you had. Plenty of good things already in your life that seems to be what he's saying. Now here we learned that Abraham has knowledge of this man's life. He knows who the rich man is, and he knows that he had a very
good prosperous life. So this might be another indicator that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on on Earth. Again, it's just a parable and we don't want to press it too, literally, but it's interesting that even Jesus is okay with, including this kind of idea, as part of his teaching that the dead are aware of what happens in people's lives on Earth. I just, as bad things, came the way of Lazarus. Now, he's being comforted and you were in agony. So Abraham wants.
This is the first reason Abraham gives for why he says, no, I'm not going to send Lazarus to give you some water. The idea is he wants a rich man to recognize that there's an element of fairness in their current situation just as the rich man received good things in his life and Lazarus received bad things. Now the situation has been reversed so there's kind of like an element of Justice here. But Abraham is not saying he's not teaching you're here because you got good things in your life.
That's not what Abraham saying he is. Just saying that the current situation is in a way Justified but now he makes the more fundamental Point verse 26, Abraham says to the rich man, but that is not all between us and you a great golf has been fixed. So the implication here is that God has fixed this great Chasm. This Great Gulf between the Place in the bad place between the two compartments between us and you, a great golf has been
fixed to stop. Anyone if you wanted to Crossing from our side to yours, so the point Abraham's making is look rich, man. Even if I wanted to help you even if I agreed to send Lazarus over and dip, he's give you some water. I wouldn't be able to recant actually cross this Chasm. It won't work. God doesn't allow that to happen. So no one can cross from our side to yours and no one can cross from your side two hours. So here we have the Fairly
strong teaching. I think that in the afterlife, your destiny is eternal. You can't cross from one compartment to the other. Presumably, this is the same rule applies in heaven and hell as well. So you can't change it even if you want to.
That's Jesus teaching here. If you get to the afterlife, when you regret making the decisions that you made, which probably a lot of people in the bad place, would Jesus teaching is you can't actually get to the other compartment, even if you want to, why does Jesus add this detail into the parable? Because he wants the Pharisees to realize that the way they live their life has Eternal consequences and if they get to the afterlife and then they regret their decisions, it's too
late. Verse 27. So the rich man seems to accept this reasoning. He realizes that his request isn't possible because of the great Chasm. So he asks for a different request of Abraham. He says, Father Abraham, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house Now, we need to pause here. This is probably one reason why we can't take the parable to literally.
Because if this was literally the case we'd have to say that Jesus believes that it's possible to send someone to come back from the dead and to preach to those who are alive. And that doesn't seem to be part of Christian teaching.
So I don't think we want to say that Jesus wants to affirm that Abraham could, in fact, seven someone back from the dead to preach to the living because that's not that doesn't seem to be how the after Works. So if we are going to agree that Jesus doesn't want to teach that, then we probably have to say that this really is symbolic. It's a fictional scenario and it doesn't fully correspond to the way the afterlife works or rather worked in Jesus time. So it's just worth adding that in.
He says batter. So back to the rich man father I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house since I have five brothers to give them warning lest they also come to this place of Torment. So he's got Brothers, Left Alive on Earth and he doesn't want his brothers to end up in the bad
place as well. Now because of this verse some Catholic theologians have suggested that maybe the rich man is not in. If we use the word, hell, he's not in Hell or the bad place, he's actually in purgatory. And the reason they think that is because here, he she he seems to be showing genuine love and concern for his brothers on Earth. So, and you might think the people in hell can't really show that. And so, he's in purgatory. I don't think that's the right
interpretation. I think that's ruled out, because of what Jesus said earlier in the parable where he says, you can't cross from one side to the other. According to Catholic, teaching you can cross from purgatory to heaven. In fact, people do it all the time if we understand Purgatory correctly. So I don't think it's possible to say that the rich man is impersonating. Tree. But I just put that out there to let you know that some quite
respected. Theologians have suggested, this might be Purgatory. Rather than hell, I think it's more reasonable to think that this does correspond to what we think of, as the bad place, or how it's just that, this man is showing regret for the decisions he made in his life. Verse 29, notice Abraham's response to his request to send Lazarus to his brothers. Abraham says they have Moses. And the prophets. Let them listen to them.
So Moses and the prophets is like a metaphor for the Old Testament. So Abraham saying they have an Old Testament, they know their Old Testament, let them listen to it. Abraham says, if you listen to the Old Testament, that would be enough to keep them from coming to this place, that's quite profound, isn't it? Because well the Old Testament does teach pretty clearly that you should treat the poor well and you should use your money
while and not use it selfishly. So Abraham says if you know you Old Testament you will know how to treat people and you'll believe it and you won't make decisions that will put you in hell. So here I think we can say Jesus is teaching that the scriptures even just the Old Testament itself. Is sufficient is enough information for a person to know how God expects them to live
their life. So if a person reads the Old Testament and believes it will, then they won't, you know, the believes that in the sense of acting on it, then they won't actually end up in hell. That appears to be Jesus teaching here. Verse 30. So the rich man, tries one more run one more time here to get Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers. He says, yes, but if someone comes to them from the dead,
they will repent. Now I hear statements like personally, admire and life, I work as a secondary school teacher and in the re class, I hear this a lot from students.
This is a very common attitude for people in the 21st century to have today, particularly young people, they say things like if I see a miracle, if God heals whatever or appears to me right now and give me a miraculous Vision, then I will believe that's actually very common So they won't believe the Bible if you tell them a Bible story. They'll say yeah, won't believe that. But if God Appears to me miraculously, then I'll believe the Bible and I will change my life.
So they're looking for this miraculous sign. So that's a reasonable thing to say in a way. But the problem is and I will often say this to my students is we know that that's not the case, because there was plenty of times in Jesus ministry where he did do miraculous things, people saw him do miraculous things even raising people from the dead and some people still weren't convinced, some people didn't turn to God, some people just got even angrier at Jesus.
So, I think this verse speaks a lot to our culture today, if someone came to them from the dead, they will repent. Well, that's what people think, but human psychology doesn't work that way. And in fact, that's exactly what Jesus goes on to teach here. So, verse 31 Abraham says in the parable, If they will not listen to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead. I think this is quite a phenomenal statement.
Jesus knows how the human heart Works. He knows that people who don't listen to God's revelation in scripture, nothing's going to be enough for them. They're not going to listen even through Miracles, they're not going to believe, even if the most amazing Miracle is presented to them. So again, the clear teaching is the Revelation that God gives us in the scriptures is enough. And if you don't believe That you're not going to believe anything. Obviously, a lot more could be
said about this as well. So that's the end of the parable and when we, whenever we finish Parables, we always want to ask ourselves because there's a lot of details. We can get caught up in, what's the overall point chooses was trying to communicate to his original audience?
I Think Jesus is trying to teach the people, particularly the Pharisees, firstly, that the way they use their money and the way they treat their poor will be what determines the Eternal Destiny, not their Jewish heritage In the light of part of the parable, I think he makes a second point, which is this.
Once you're in the afterlife he can't change your destiny even if you want to. So Jesus is trying to emphasize to the Pharisees and the crowds as a whole it's important that you change your ways now and start to use your money for the purposes of the kingdom and not in a selfish way. Otherwise you could end up in the bad place just like the man in the parable was So that's out exegesis of the text. This is come up quite a lot in Catholic teaching.
And so it's found in a few really interesting and quite clear paragraphs of the catechism. So I'd like to read a few of them out for you paragraph. 3, 36 has a discussion about angels.
It says from the beginning of Life until death human life is surrounded by the watchful care and intercession of angels beside each believer stands an angel as protector and Shepherd, leading him Life already here on Earth, the Christian Life, shares by faith in the Blessed company of angels and Men United in God. Paragraph 28, 31 starts to link
this to the way we treat people. This is in the discussion about the, Our Father. It says the presence of those who hunger because they lack bread opens up another profound. Meaning of this petition, the drama of hunger in the world calls Christians, who pray sincerely to exercise responsibility toward their Brethren, both in their personal behavior, and in their solidarity, with the Human family. This petition of the Lord's
Prayer, cannot be isolated. it from The Parables of the Poor Man Lazarus and of The Last Judgement So here, right in the midst of a discussion about the, Our Father, we have the clear Catholic teaching that some people are quite poor and they really do need physical bread and as Christians, we have a responsibility to feed them. That's certainly one of the points of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Now we get down to some really concrete teachings.
So paragraph 10 to 1 talks about the particular judgment which is the Judgment each person experiences immediately after death. Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace. Manifested in Christ, the New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming.
But also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and Faith. The parable of the Poor Man, Lazarus, and the power, and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as others. Testament, texts speak of a final Destiny of the Soul, a destiny, which can be different for some and for others. Paragraph 6, 3 3, we have a discussion about where Jesus went for the three days after his death.
Here's what it says. Scripture calls the Abode of the Dead to went to which the dead Christ went down. Hell, she all in Hebrew or Hades in Greek. Because those who are, there are deprived of the vision of God, such is the case for all the dead weather, evil, or righteous while they are awake. The Redeemer, which does not mean that their lot is As Jesus shows through the parable of the Poor Man Lazarus, who was received into Abraham's bosom?
It is precisely those holy souls, who awaited their savior in Abraham's bosom, who the Christ whom Christ, the Lord delivered, when he descended into hell Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the Damned nor to destroy the hell of damnation. But to free the just who had gone before him. So, this is a really important teaching, in understanding where Jesus went for the three days because there's a lot of confusion about it. Did Jesus, go to hell to bring people out of hell to give
people a second chance? No, this paragraph. Clearly teaches. That before, Jesus, everyone went to the same place, which is Hades and that had two compartments. And when Jesus died for the three days, after his death, he went down to the good compartment and those Souls who had lived a good virtuous. In the bosom of Abraham, he brought them with himself into
heaven in his resurrection. So that's a really interesting teaching, which is not entirely explicit in the Bible, but which the church fathers were really clear on and the Catholic church is really clear on as well. Paragraph 1859. This is our last one has a discussion about what it means to have a mortal sin and this is a really interesting one, mortal sin requires, full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act of
its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent, sufficient sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice, feigned ignorance, and Hardness of Heart. Do not diminish, but rather increase the voluntary. Of a sin. So that's really interesting. So the paragraph tells us that mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent, but then it goes on to talk about feigned ignorance and Hardness of Heart.
So, as in turning away, when we know something is wrong, or, you know, closing out use because we don't want to hear that. Something is wrong, having a Hardness of Heart. And it actually that phrase, they're actually refers. It makes a reference to this Parable. So just as the A rich man had feigned ignorance and Hardness of Heart. He probably knew what he should
have been doing in his life. The Catholic Church's teaching is that does not diminish, our responsibility, Hardness of Heart in that sense of being voluntarily ignorant actually makes us more culpable not less culpable. So a whole lot of really interesting teachings from this particular Gospel reading. Today, I'll include always paragraphs in the show notes. Thanks for listening to this podcast. It's a bit of a longer one but I think it's worth it because it's a really difficult Parable.
If you think others would appreciate hearing this exegesis of the rich man and Lazarus, I'd love it. If you could share it with them and please send in any questions you have to the email address. Logical Bible study at gmail.com or you could leave a voicemail. Message. And the link for that is in the show notes to thanks for listening.