Returning lost artifacts – a boon or a bane?

to an overflowing museum. Uh, so foreign institutions and collectors are returning artifacts with deep spiritual meaning for Cambodians, but where and how to displace them remain open questions. In the case of Bali, on the other hand, safety and security are a concern when considering where these returned

artifacts should go, and these are really fragile items. I've been to museums in Kathmandu in Nepal, and these are really, really ancient stuff and it's made with materials that were not the most sophisticated at the time, so there's decay to consider as well. Uh, several academics do feel that really Religious objects should be returned to the people of Bali. Some Indonesian officials say they may be safer in Jakarta given Bali's theft situation. So returning lost artifacts to the

countries of origin is not a simple task. So we want to find out more about how complicated this is now with Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for the NTU Center for Contemporary Art in Singapore. She is also senior lecturer and head of department for art. Art history at NTU's School of Humanities. Doctor Karen, good to have you on the show. Really excited to talk about this one because uh I'm a big museum goer myself and this is quite uh a complicated matter, something

that I didn't expect to be so complex. So let's get right into it. For a start, help us understand beyond, I suppose the moral rationale, moral reasoning, why actually is it important to return stolen Or lost artifacts or even art to their rightful owners. Well, thank you for spending some time thinking about this very urgent issue. Um, I like to think that part of why it's so important is that it's not just about uh uh context where there is someone who has been wronged.

Needs to be made whole by the return of these artifacts, but also understanding the larger role that cultural patrimony has for all of us, that it's not just about two parties, it's about sort of how we as a people in the 21st century want to think about uh cultural patrimony. Um, this is, this is one of the sort of bigger issues. I think there's also a very practical reason to think about um how, how the return of um stolen, looted or otherwise sort of ill-gotten objects, um, has, has

a role to play. It, it's also the idea that things have been collected um for the sake of being collected. And then when we, when we think about objects, when we think about their cultural significance that it's not just about keeping them locked away where they can be sort of safely studied, um, it's really about thinking about how can we get this material into the public eye.

Um, so for, for better or for worse, I think that the, the controversies right now around the sort of literal return of objects are part of a bigger conversation

about the importance of this material. Yeah, you brought up a very good point there about how to sort of reintroduce these items back into the public domain and that's something that um I wouldn't say it doesn't sit well with me, but I'm trying to understand better because I'm a big museum goer and when I go to the Louvre and you go to the Met in New York and you get to see these really ancient artifacts collected over the years,

whether through ill-gotten gains or not. Um, and one can argue that viewing these artifacts are exactly what visitors go there for, right? To be educated, to be informed, to see these things in real life and these are cities that Perhaps would be more accessible to people than others. So if such artifacts are then returned, what happens to the educational value of having them at such major museums? Great question. Uh, I think, you know, one thing to

point out, um, is that museum collections are gigantic. The project of collecting, especially encyclopedic collections for universal museums, um, has created the situation where at any given time, a major museum like the Louvre might have, I don't know, less than 10% of its collection on view. So, Repatriation of objects that are specifically requested by claimants, the repatriation of objects that have very specific cultural significance does not mean that all of a sudden, the museum storage

would be bare. Um, the other side of that is, as I said, I don't think it's just about museums. I think it's about education and as we all know, we are in a very digital age. There are ways to think about these objects, not just In terms of their firsthand study or access by visiting museums, but also how can they become part of a larger conversation around teaching history in a different way. Dr. Corin, we talked earlier about how countries have had to reject

stolen artifacts in some cases. What are the scenarios in which the process isn't a smooth one? Hm, I mean, there, there are so many examples. I mean, if you start to look into these, these cases, you can find that there are, you know, sort of very tricky situations because, you know, the, the larger agreements that um that are the sort of guiding principles for the legal repatriation um of of these materials are universal in scope, right?

So we have the Hague Convention from 1954, uh, we have um much more sort of recent legislation within the 1990s from Unihua. Uh, but those are sort of, again, these are aspirational, these are general, you have to then go down to the sort of local or in some cases, national, um, uh, laws. Uh, and so maybe one thing to point out is also within any given sort of modern day sovereign nation, um,

there are different cultural communities or cultural constituencies. So you might have indigenous communities who in theory are on the territory of this sovereign nation state, and yet, They are trying to appeal, perhaps not through the um governing laws relating to cultural patrimony, but to a slightly different story, the sort of ongoing um settler colonialism that is part of their reality that has created a, say, national museum that holds artifacts or other objects that are

specific to their communities. And so I think that's an example of something that is often quite hard to legislate. Because you have um possibly different communities also who are not part of the sort of galleries, libraries, museums, industry, they are cultural communities who want to work with and actually use some of these objects rather than conserve them. Um, so, so I think that's a particularly important point to be

sort of adjudicated more in the public eye. So what happens to those artifacts that cannot be returned to the countries of origin? Uh, that's a great question. I mean, I think no matter what the goal is that these objects become the study of more than one sort of area. So often art museums are the people who are the custodians of these objects, and so there are sort of art historians, archaeologists, um,

conservators who spend time with the objects. I think it's important to just broaden the scope of who is invited. To both learn from, with and about these objects, creating

perhaps other venues. Um, like I said, I think in the realm of education, not just university education, but primary, secondary education, I think there need to be ways for people to, again, have sort of access either to high resolution digital imagery, um, other types of primary documentation that will help a, a larger group.

People look, learn and ask questions and I do think that younger students, um, even at the primary level can be a part of that of finding out, you know, what is it that they find interesting, what are the questions that they want to have answered. Yeah, I think that that's a very interesting way of looking at it. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves of that childlike curiosity

to I suppose facilitate um historical answers sometimes. Um, so you alluded to how Some museums may have space constraints among other issues uh that they have to consider I suppose before any of these return transactions if you will take place. So what are some of these other considerations that museums have to make or take when they receive such artifacts um apart from space I suppose. Uh, climate control is a big one. So again, this is where I feel like it's actually not wholly the

responsibility of, say, the museums themselves. It's kind of the responsibility of um larger, you know, governmental agencies to fund these wonderful arts institutions, um, you know, arts institutions and the small staff that they have, um, always do the best they can with very limited resources, but, you know, having specifically in, in a region like, you know, around Singapore.

Within Southeast Asia, climate control, specifically humidity control is something that is is a real concern and that will only be rectified with some pretty major investment into the infrastructure for the conservation of of these types of objects. Uh, we're just curious now, how do museums ensure the authenticity of the returned objects or or any artifacts in general? This is great, um, this, because the question is, is

one that can go on forever. It's there, there are ways of verifying how the object first came into the institution. Usually that is documented in some way, um, but then the question is, you know, how much more research can you do to, to really find where it was before that, essentially the, the control chain.

Um, and to be honest, it's not as simple as it sounds, and I think that it actually needs to be sort of the, the ongoing work, not just of our generation, the next generation, but kind of subsequent generations

as well. Um, so I guess this is, this is a question is, are we doing this because it is sort of scientific evidence that this is exactly the piece that came from exactly this temple, um, and that there, because we can link all of those things together, then a Of course, it should be returned, or is it a bigger question that, because we have a sort of moral certainty to understand that, you know, even if this came from a slightly different temple in a in a neighboring region,

there is still sort of an argument for why it would be more at home, you know, in, um, a collection, uh, let's say in Northern Thailand than in the Netherlands. I think, you know, this is also part of the work is, um, slowly adjusting the policy to meet reality.

Talk to us about the care and maintenance of these artifacts. Um, I had the pleasure and privilege of having my internship, which had nothing to do with what I was studying at the time, uh, at the Heritage Conservation Center here in Singapore, Little did you know there was a facility here in Singapore. It's all the way in Jurong, so I know you know that you had an internship there. Yeah, and it was a really fun one because that's where you get to meet the real nerd.

Of conservation, like it's really fascinating. Again, nothing to do with my line of work eventually, but it was still an experience. So talk to us about those specific skills that conservators need to have, Dr. Karen. Is the industry for this a thriving one? Are we, are you encouraged by, you know, the number of conservation efforts and conservatives and the skills that they need to have? Uh, sure. Well, I'll answer that in a few ways. So, so one is that that the skills are a bit

all over the place, the way museum work is. So, you know, you have to have very specific training in conservation chemistry, in the handling of objects, um, but then also really a very lively curiosity, um, from a broad humanities perspective. You have to have um a visual acuity to understand what you're looking at, not necessarily based on the documentation that you have in front of you, but sort of

this accumulated knowledge of having looked at many, many things. Um, so it's a type of connoisseurship that develops just by spending time with objects, but as I said, it also involves having the the backing um through. Understanding history, through understanding art history, and this is something that at NTU we're very excited to introduce to our students at the undergraduate level as well as at the

master's level. I mean, NTU has had a very successful master's program in museum studies and curatorial practices that often also places students in internships at HCC um. Where, where they see that it's, it's really not that you can separate the scientific aspect of conservation from the

historical or cultural aspect. Um, they also very much take into account intangible cultural heritage and how the sort of lived expression of culture is, you know, even though Happening in the 21st century is not separate from items that come from centuries before that. Yeah, I guess that will be the mission for me to conserve my grandma's very old Peranakan Kabaya that you can't find anymore. Uh, maybe I'll donate that to the HCC one day.

Doctor Karen, this has been absolutely fun. We've been meaning to talk about this topic for quite some time now, and we were so glad that we were able to have this conversation with you. So thank you so much for walking us through the exact steps. It's not a very black and white uh process at all as as we've learned today. So thanks very much for enlightening us today.

Sure, well, I mean, as we all say, like it's, it's really just the beginning of a new chapter, the fact that museums are actually addressing this issue now and, and physically returning objects to other places. It's a beginning, but it's going to be ongoing for for centuries. So to answer your other question earlier, there is a lot of work to be done. Absolutely and You know what, what you've told us today has been at least encouraging for the most part. Thanks very much

once again, Dr. Karen. Great, thanks for having me. The pleasure is ours. That's Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for the NTU Center for Contemporary Art Singapore. She's also senior lecturer and head of department for art history at NTU School of Humanities.