Designing Large Language Model Applications: A Holistic Approach to LLMs - podcast episode cover

Designing Large Language Model Applications: A Holistic Approach to LLMs

Aug 23, 202525 min
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Episode description

A comprehensive overview of designing large language model applications, praised for its synthesis of advanced AI methods and practical applications. It explores fundamental concepts like prompting, fine-tuning, and reasoning, emphasizing how LLMs behave in practice through hands-on exercises and numerous research paper references. The text examines the ingredients of LLMs, including pre-training data, vocabulary, and tokenization, and details their architecture and learning objectives. It further investigates advanced techniques for fine-tuning, mitigating hallucinations, improving reasoning, and optimizing LLM inference, while also covering interfacing LLMs with external tools and the retrieval-augmented generation (RAG) pipeline. The book concludes by discussing LLM application paradigms, aiming to equip readers with the intuition and tools for building production-grade LLM solutions.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Welcome to the deep dive. If you've been watching the tech world, you know we're living through an incredible moment. This AI revolution powered by large language models or.

Speaker 2

LMS, it really is something else.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's not just a minor tech update. It feels like one of those huge shifts, you know, like the computer, the internet, or the smartphone.

Speaker 3

Definitely pivotal.

Speaker 1

We're seeing these prototypes that seem almost magical. You can write stories, generate code, it's amazing.

Speaker 3

The demos are stunning.

Speaker 1

But here's the thing, right, taking that cool demo and making it a reliable, production grade application, that's well, that's a whole different.

Speaker 3

Credit, much harder game.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So our mission today is really to cut through some of that hype and navigate this pretty complex landscape of LM development. We want to equip you, our listener, with the core intuition, some surprising facts maybe, and the practical tools you'll need to build genuinely sophisticated applications, the ones that actually work.

Speaker 2

And to guide us on this deep dive. We're leaning pretty heavily on a fent plastic resource designing Large language Model applications by suhas PE. What's great about it? I think is that it's not just some dry technical manual.

Speaker 3

It gives this.

Speaker 2

Really holistic overview for you know, software engineers and mel folks, product managers, anyone involved.

Speaker 1

That's useful.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and it provides surprising depth that helps you understand not just what the models do, but fundamentally why they behave the way they do, and that why is crucial, absolutely crucial, especially for getting past fragile prototypes to something robust.

Speaker 1

Okay, let's unpack this then when we talk about lms, what are they actually made of? Like what are the basic ingredients before they even start learning?

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 2

So, at their very core, lms are built on pre training data.

Speaker 1

That's the raw fuel data. Got it?

Speaker 2

And you know that old saying garbage in, garbage out, It applies massively here. The scale and maybe even more importantly, the quality of this data is paramount.

Speaker 1

So where does it all come from?

Speaker 2

We're talking colossal amounts of text. A huge chunk often comes from web text, like from common Girl. Massive, but it needs so much cleaning because well, the Internet's.

Speaker 1

Messy understatement of the year, huh.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

Then you have things like web text or open web text. They often use signals from places like Reddit outbound links specifically trying to filter for you know, higher quality stuff.

Speaker 3

Wisdom of the crowd kind of interesting.

Speaker 1

What else?

Speaker 2

There's factual knowledge from Wikipedia, super valuable for accuracy, but the style.

Speaker 1

Is very formal, yeah, very encyclopedic.

Speaker 2

And historically BooksCorpus was big, lots of narrative but surprisingly like twenty six percent romance novels from unpublished authors, so quite specific.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 2

Okay, and now you see newer efforts like hugging faces, Fine Web aiming for even cleaner web data and I'm fine Web ed you focusing on educational content.

Speaker 3

Fifteen trillion tokens. It's huge.

Speaker 1

So it's clearly not just about quantity, it's about cleaning and curating this raw material. What does that involve exactly?

Speaker 2

Data preprocessing is key, It's not glamorous, but maybe the most vital step, like what specifically you got to strip out all the web boilerplate, menus, navelinks, lar nipsen, placeholders, all that junk.

Speaker 3

And language identification.

Speaker 2

Is surprisingly tricky, even in supposedly English only data sets.

Speaker 3

Other languages creep in.

Speaker 2

If you don't catch that, your model might suddenly start speaking Spanish, which.

Speaker 1

Could be a bug or maybe a.

Speaker 2

Feature could be either, and quality filtering is vital too often using things like perplexity scores.

Speaker 1

Okay, perplexity scores, how does that work? Break that down?

Speaker 3

Sure? Think of it like this.

Speaker 2

If you're trying to predict the next word in a really well written, clear sentence, it's pretty easy.

Speaker 3

Low uncertainty. That's low perplexity, makes sense. But if you're trying to.

Speaker 2

Guess the next word in some garbled text full of errors, it's super hard. High uncertainty, that's high perplexity.

Speaker 1

Ah, okay, So high perplexity means noisy, bad data.

Speaker 2

Basically, yeah, you probably don't want to feed that to your expensive model.

Speaker 1

Got it? And after cleaning you mentioned duplication in privacy? Why is that so important?

Speaker 3

Oh? It's massive.

Speaker 2

Web tex is full of duplicates. Removing them isn't just about efficiency. It's critical to stop llms from accidentally memorizing and leaking PII personally identifiable information.

Speaker 1

Right, even if it's technically published exactly.

Speaker 2

That's the whole contextual integrity issue. Should an AI just blurt out someone's address because it found it online somewhere? It's tricky, especially with public figures.

Speaker 1

Complex ethical grounds totally.

Speaker 2

And what's wild is that even a tiny bit of manipulated data, like less than point one percent, can potentially make it easier for other sensitive data to leak.

Speaker 1

Wow. Okay, that's a lot about the raw material. But this next part for me is where it gets really fascinating. How do these models actually read. It's not like they see words like we do, is it?

Speaker 3

You're spot on?

Speaker 2

They don't process discrete words like humans. They use something called tokens, and often these tokens are.

Speaker 1

Subwords, subwords like parts of words kind of yeah.

Speaker 2

So example in gpt ex, office might be one token, but office with that little meaning a space before it is a different token.

Speaker 3

Case matters to office versus office.

Speaker 1

Okay, so it's more granial exactly.

Speaker 2

And the subword approach is clever because it mostly avoids.

Speaker 3

The out of vocabulary problem.

Speaker 2

If it sees a totally new word, it can usually break it down into known subword pieces instead of just crashing.

Speaker 1

So it's almost like they're reading in syllables or morphemes, not whole words.

Speaker 2

Oh a bit like that, Yeah, smaller meaningful units. And sometimes this process creates weird artifacts glitch tokens tokens, yeah, or undertrain ones. There's this great story about solid Magic gold Carp. It was a Reddit username that actually became a token in GPT two.

Speaker 1

Seriously a username yep.

Speaker 2

But then later models like GPT three were trained on different data where that token barely appeared. It had no training signal. So if you fed GPT three Solid Magic old Carp, it would just act weirdly like it had no clue what to do as it are it is. But it raises this cool question, what can these weird tokens tell us about the training data. It's like a little window into the model's digestive system.

Speaker 1

Huh, a digital digestive system. I like that. Okay, so we have the data, we have the tokens. How does this all come together? We hear neural networks transformers. What's the engine?

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 2

The engine at the heart of almost all modern llms is the transformer architecture. It was a huge breakthrough back in twenty seventeen. Why was it such a big deal because older recurrent neural networks RNNs really struggled with long sentences, long range dependencies. They were trying to sort of cram the meaning of a whole sentence into one single vector. It just didn't scale well. The transformer changed that with its key innovation self attention.

Speaker 1

Self attention. That sounds mindful. How does it work for AI?

Speaker 2

Heah, Yeah, it's actually pretty intuitive. Think about how we read. We don't give every word equal weight, right, definitely not. We focus on certain words to understand context, like bank means something different in riverbank versus saving bank. Self attention lets the model do exactly that way, the importance of different words in the sequence as it processes them, so it.

Speaker 1

Learns context from surrounding words precisely.

Speaker 2

It's like that old linguistics idea you shall know a word by the company it keeps. It uses these things called query key and value matrices to let words mathematically attend to each other.

Speaker 1

Okay, mathematically attend, got it? And they're different types of these transformers.

Speaker 3

Yeah, broadly. Three main transformer backbones.

Speaker 2

First, encoder only models like Burt great for understanding text things, search or classification.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

Then the original encoder decoder design still fantastic for things like machine translation, where you need to process an input and generate a distinct output.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And finally, the one we usually associate with generative AI like GPT four the decoder only architecture. These models are specialized in predicting the very next token in a sequence. That's how they generate text.

Speaker 1

And what about these mixture of experts models? Loe? Are they different? Again?

Speaker 2

There are really interesting evolution sort of built on the backbone. Mixture of experts aims to massively increase a model's capacity how much it knows without proportionally increasing the compute cost for every single input.

Speaker 1

How does that work?

Speaker 2

The clever bit is that for any given input, only a subset of specialized experts inside the model gets activated. So ask about physics, the physics expert activates. Ask about poetry, The poetry expert lights up. The others stay quiet.

Speaker 1

Huh So it's like calling on specialists exactly.

Speaker 2

You get the power of a huge model, but you only run the relevant parts for each query. Mistral's mixtral is a key example, and many suspect GEPC four uses something similar, though it's unconfirmed.

Speaker 1

This is really critical then for you, the listener, understanding these foundations, the data, the tokens, the transformer architecture MOE. It's crucial, absolutely, even if you never train one from scratch. That intuition helps you debug, figure out why it's behaving oddly, and build better apps. You start to see why it might struggle or succeed.

Speaker 3

Get a feel for the machine.

Speaker 1

So we've established these models are powerful, but yeah, definitely not perfect. What are some of the biggest practical limitations and how are we starting to tackle them.

Speaker 2

One of the biggest and probably most talked about, is hallucinations.

Speaker 1

Right when they just make stuff up.

Speaker 2

Exactly more formally, it's generated text that isn't grounded in the training data or the input context.

Speaker 3

It sounds plausible, but it's just fabrications.

Speaker 1

Do you give an example.

Speaker 2

Sure, there was a well known case with the NAS Research Hermes model. It hallucinated details about Ugandan medal winners from the twenty twenty Olympics. Oh wow, Yeah, it got birth dates wrong, mixed up which medals they won. The athletes were real, the core facts were real, but the details were just invented, confidently stated but wrong.

Speaker 1

Yikes, how do you even begin to fix that?

Speaker 2

It's tough. Mitigation involves several things. Good product design helps try not to ask questions the LLM likely can't answer, soh knowing what it doesn't know is hard true. We also look at model self knowledge and calibration, basically, how confident is the model in its own output. Sometimes low confidence correlates with higher hallucination risk.

Speaker 1

Okay, using its own uncertainty signals.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And then there are technical effixes during generation, like factual nuclear sampling, which tries to reduce randomness for more factual outputs, or doulity coding, which cleverly uses differences between signals and the transformulators to spot potential hallucinations.

Speaker 1

Fascinating, And sometimes they hallucinate just because the prompt itself is confusing, right, like yeah, with irrelevant info?

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. If you put distracting sentences in the prompt like mentioning max selling apples in Sarah's unrelated math problem, the LM can get confused and incorporate the wrong info, so prompting it to first identify and remove irrelevant context can help.

Speaker 1

Okay. So beyond just factual accuracy, what about actual reasoning? Can they really connect dots logically?

Speaker 2

That's a huge area of research and development. Natural language reasoning means integrating knowledge to draw conclusions, and there are different kinds. Deductive is pure logic premise a premise B, therefore conclusion C. Like mister Shockley is allergic to mushrooms. This dish has mushrooms, so mister Shockley.

Speaker 3

Should avoid it.

Speaker 2

Simple logic, then inductive generalizing from examples, so hundreds of round manhole covers conclude manhole covers are generally round. Abductive reasoning is finding the most likely explanation streets, wet puddles, umbrellas, hmm, probably rain inferance of the best explanation exactly. And then there's common sense implicit stuff like you can't fit a horse in a Mini Cooper.

Speaker 1

Huh yeah, hopefully obvious. How do you get an LLM to do that better?

Speaker 2

A major technique is chain of thought prompting or cooey. You literally tell the LLM to think, step by.

Speaker 1

Step, show your work basically pretty.

Speaker 2

Much for a math problem like thirty four plus forty four plus three twenty three three to two. Instead of just asking for the answer, you ask it to break it down first, calculate three, two, three, and so on. Performance jump dramatically.

Speaker 1

Because it forces a sequential process right.

Speaker 2

It gives it intermediate steps to work with. It costs more tokens, more time, but it's often worth it for complex tasks. You can also use verifiers, maybe another LM to check the steps, or even fine tune models specifically on reasoning data sets.

Speaker 1

Okay, so we can make them smarter, more reliable, but these things are huge. How do we actually run them efficiently in the real world. That sounds like a massive hurdle.

Speaker 2

It is a huge hurdle, and that brings us to choosing and optimizing llms for production. First, you have to pick one. You've got proprietary providers open AI, Google, Mthropic via APIs easy to use, manage the big players, and then open source models Metaslama, luther AI, Mistral, Microsoft's FI models. You get the model weights, more transparency, more flexibility, but you often have to manage the deployment yourself or use specialized platforms.

Speaker 1

Trade offs there big time.

Speaker 2

Transparency versus convenience, cost versus latency, And.

Speaker 1

Once you pick one, how do you know if it's any good for your job? Benchmarks are everywhere, but are they the whole story?

Speaker 2

Definitely not the whole story. Evaluating llm's is super tricka. Benchmarks can suffer from test set contamination. The model might have seen the answers in its training data cheating basically kind of or models get over optimized just to score well on a benchmark, but aren't great in practice, and they're very sensitive to how you prompt them. Frameworks like Stanford's HLM try to be more comprehensive, looking at accuracy, robustness, fairness, calibration.

Speaker 3

Lots of things.

Speaker 2

So you need holistic evaluation and ideally your own internal benchmarks tailored to your actual use case. That's key now actually running them, you generally need GPUs for decent speed. They're just computationally intensive, right, expensive hardware, which is where quantization comes in.

Speaker 3

It's a lifesaver.

Speaker 1

Quantization Explain that sounds.

Speaker 3

Complex, it's actually a pretty neat idea.

Speaker 2

It's about reducing the memory footprint. You take the numbers inside the model, usually high precision floating point numbers like FP thirty two, and represent them with fewer bits like FP sixteen, b F sixteen or even eight bit integers. It's an INN eight so like compressing the numbers.

Speaker 1

Exactly like compressing them, you lose a tiny bit of precision, usually negligible, but the model becomes much smaller, uses less memory, and runs faster. Tools like a LAMA. Make it easier to run these quantized models, even locally on a powerful laptop.

Speaker 2

Sometimes that's cool. Make the more accessible. Okay, so it's loaded, maybe quantized. How do you speed up the inference, the actual running part, and make it cheaper.

Speaker 1

Several key tricks for LLM inference optimization. A huge one is the cav cash cav cash Yeah, key value cash. Think of it as the model's short term memory for the current conversation or task. When you send a prompt, especially one with instructions, those instructions often stay the same for follow up questions.

Speaker 2

The cav cash stores the internal calculations the key and value matrices from self attention related to that initial prompt, so the model doesn't have to recalculate them every single time you ask a follow up question. It dramatically speeds things up after.

Speaker 3

The first turn.

Speaker 1

Ah avoids redundant work clever what.

Speaker 2

Else, there's speculative decoding. This is pretty cool. You use a small, fast draft model to generate a chunk of tokens quickly, Then the larger, more accurate model verifies those tokens in a batch, like.

Speaker 1

A quick first draft, and then a careful.

Speaker 2

Edit exactly the big model checks the interns work quickly instead of doing it all slowly. Itself speeds things up a lot for generation nice. We also use knowledge distillation. Train a smaller student model to mimic a big teacher model. You get a faster, cheaper model that retains a lot of the capability.

Speaker 1

Think the stillburd right, smaller but still capable.

Speaker 2

And things like parallel de coding for generating multiple parts simultaneously, or early exit where simpler queries might get an answer from an earlier layer of the model without going all the way through lots of techniques to.

Speaker 1

Make them practical. Okay, this brings us squarely to the application layer. How do we take these optimized lmms and actually plug them into complex software? They can't just operate in a vacuum, can they?

Speaker 2

No, definitely not. They have real limitations. Knowledge cutoff is a big one. They don't know about yesterday's news unless retrained. They struggle with precise math, no factual guarantees, can't easily cite sources and context. Windows while growing are still finite.

Speaker 1

So they need help from the outside world.

Speaker 3

Precisely.

Speaker 2

You need to interface them with external tools and data. We generally talk about three core LLM interaction paradigms. Okay, First, the passive approach. This is basically retrieval augmented generation or RG. The LLM just receives information and its prompt. It doesn't know where it came from. You feed it the relevant context.

Speaker 1

Giving it the answer key snippet.

Speaker 2

Kind of yeah, perfect for Q and A over your own private documents. You retrieve the relevant text, put it in the prompt, and the LLM answer.

Speaker 3

Is based on that.

Speaker 1

Okay, passive, what's next?

Speaker 3

Explicit tool use here? The LLM is more active.

Speaker 2

You give it instructions and a set of tools it can use, like a web search tool, a calculator, a database connector, and.

Speaker 1

It chooses which tool to use exactly.

Speaker 2

Frameworks like lang chain help manage this. The LLM decides, okay, to answer this, I need to search the web, and it triggers the search tool. It becomes an orchestrator, more interactive.

Speaker 1

And the third, the.

Speaker 2

Most advanced, is the aegentic paradigm. Think autonomous agents. These lllms can interact with their environment, break down complex goals into subtasks, and take a sequence of actions using tools to achieve the goal.

Speaker 1

Like that Apple CFO example you.

Speaker 2

Mentioned earlier, Exactly like that, who was Apple CFO at its lowest stock price in ten years? The agent figures out one, get stock data, two, find lowest point three find CFO for that date. It plans and executes.

Speaker 1

Wow, that's powerful. Still limitations though, you said.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, current agents can still get stuck in loops, choose the wrong tool, or just fail. It's definitely the frontier very active research.

Speaker 1

Okay, but let's go back to Eric retrieval augmented generation. You said it's passive, but it feels like the cornerstone of so many practical LLM apps today. Let's really dive deep into OURG. Why is it so vital and how does it actually work?

Speaker 3

Under the hood, OURAG is absolutely fundamental.

Speaker 2

Its main job is letting LMS access your specific private data stuff it never saw.

Speaker 1

During training, right bitging the knowledge gap.

Speaker 2

Exactly, and by doing that it drastically reduces hallucinations because responses are grounded in actual provided text. It allows for citations, It lets the LM talk about recent events, and it handles the long tail entities.

Speaker 1

Long tail entities what are those again? Think?

Speaker 3

Really niche facts stuff? So rare.

Speaker 2

It might only appear once or twice in trillions of tokens of training data. LM struggle to memorize that OURG retrieves that specific fact just when needed. Without our AG, you'd need impossibly huge models to maybe memorize everything.

Speaker 1

So OURG is essential for accessing specific, less common knowledge totally.

Speaker 2

The RAG pipeline itself is actually quite sophisticated.

Speaker 1

Now.

Speaker 3

It's not just a simple.

Speaker 1

Look up, okay, walk us through the steps.

Speaker 2

It often starts with rewrite. The user's query might get rephrase to better match the documents. Sometimes an LM even generates a hypothetical document high D that would answer the query, and then you search using.

Speaker 1

That clever search for the ideal answer.

Speaker 2

Shape kind of then retrieve, fetching potentially relevant documents, often using embeddings for semantic similarity. But other methods exist too, like generative retrieval, where the LLM predicts document IDs.

Speaker 1

Okay, got a pile of potential documents, then.

Speaker 2

Rerank That initial retrieval might grab some irrelevant stuff. Reranking uses another model, often a smaller specialized one, to score and reorder the retrieved docs by true relevance quality.

Speaker 1

Control, refining the results. What's next?

Speaker 2

Refine Now, you might shorten or summarize the relevant snippets to fit the context window better and make them more useful. Techniques like chain of note use an LLM to generate summaries or bullet points, highlighting key info from the retrieved.

Speaker 1

Chunks, making it digestible for the main LLM precisely.

Speaker 2

Then insert This is just about how you put that refined context into the final prompt. Turns out lllms often pay more attention to stuff at the very beginning or very end of the prompt attention biases.

Speaker 1

Huh interesting quirk.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Finally, generate the main LLM produces the answer, grounded by the context you just carefully prepared and inserted. That's the basic flow well, and it can get even more complex techniques like flare, interleave generation and retrieval. The LM starts writing, identifies a bit it's unsure about low confidence tokens, pauses, retrieves more specific info just for that gap, than continues generating.

Speaker 1

Wow, dynamically retrieving info mid sentence. That's intricate. Now, with context windows getting huge like Gemini one point five pros million tokens, does rags start to become less important. Can't we just stuff everything in the context.

Speaker 2

That's a really common question, and maybe counterintuitively, no, our rag is still crucial, maybe even more crucial. It is that because even a million tokens of real world data can be incredibly noisy, finding that one specific fact the needle in the haystack, is still hard for the LLM. RI provides that targeted grounding. It ensures factuality and allows citations in a way that just having a massive context window doesn't guarantee.

Speaker 1

So long context helps fit more potential info, but ARI helps find the right info within it exactly.

Speaker 2

It reduces the noise problem. Long context isn't a magic bullet for messy data or the need for verifiable grounding, and often are and fine tuning work together. You might fine tune the retriever, the reranker, the generator, each part benefits.

Speaker 1

Okay, that makes sense. So given all this complexity, RI pipelines, optimization, choosing models, how do developers actually build and manage these systems? It sounds way beyond just fiddling with prompts.

Speaker 2

Oh, it absolutely is. It requires real system design. One common pattern is MULTILLLM.

Speaker 1

Architectures using more than one LM.

Speaker 2

Yeah, maybe a small, fast, cheap model for simple tasks or routing the query, then escalating to a big, powerful model for the complex reasoning A cascade or a router setup balances cost and capability. And the programming paradigms are evolving too. We're moving away from just endless manual prompt engineering.

Speaker 1

Thank goodness.

Speaker 2

Right. Frameworks like DSPI are pushing this idea of programming not prompting.

Speaker 1

DSPI tell me more.

Speaker 2

It abstracts the prompting process. You define the flow using modules that represent techniques like chain of Thought or React. Then DSPI figures out the best prompt and even model parameters to make that flow work for your data, often through optimization. It separates the program logic from the prompt tinkering.

Speaker 1

So the framework optimizes the prompts for you largely.

Speaker 2

Yes, it angks for more robust, generalizable applications.

Speaker 1

That's a big shift. What about controlling the output format more strictly?

Speaker 2

For that, look at things like LMQL. It stands for Language Model Query Language. It's like SQL but for.

Speaker 3

Llms embedded in Python.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

It lets you write prompts but add declarative constraints like you could define a template for generating a jet pre clue, then add a wear clause in LMQL saying the output must be phrased as a question and be exactly three words long.

Speaker 1

Ah, so you enforce structure directly.

Speaker 2

Exactly, much more control over the output format than just asking nicely in the prompt. Really useful for structured data extraction or making the LM fit into existing systems.

Speaker 1

What an incredible journey we've been on really, from the fundamental building blocks that messy data, the weirdness have tokens the transformer all the way to these advanced techniques are gree optimization, ds PI, LMQL, making them robust, efficient, integrated.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's a lot to cover.

Speaker 1

It really shows these lemms aren't just inscrutable black boxes, are they They're complex, yes, but they can be steered, optimized, connected to the world.

Speaker 2

Absolutely, they are tools we can shape and direct. And maybe that's the provocative thought to leave you with. This field is moving so incredibly fast. What we discussed today as best practice, it might honestly be different in six months or a year.

Speaker 1

Constant change, constant change.

Speaker 2

So the real lasting value for you as someone Learning or building in this space isn't just memorizing today's specific techniques. It's getting that deeper, intuitive grasp of the underlying.

Speaker 1

Principles, Understanding the why.

Speaker 2

Understanding the why, how they work, why they fail, how.

Speaker 3

To nudge them.

Speaker 2

That intuition will be your best asset as the technology keeps evolving at this frankly breathtaking pace.

Speaker 1

To keep exploring, keep asking questions, and keep building.

Speaker 3

That's where the real learning happens.

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