The role of the Chief Information officer when it comes to customer experience is crucially important but we don't talk about it enough. And today, on cxo talk, we're speaking with Michael Rutledge. The Chief Information officer at citizens Financial Group. When we talk about the role, your role of the CIO and the role of it in customer experience, can you give us kind of an overview of what's
involved? Step one is really understanding the customer needs and I think citizens does a terrific job of listening for customers. We bring customers in and, you know, they give us advice on our mobile app. We're constantly taking the pulse of our customers, both our retail customers and our commercial customers. And we measure that we also use outside surveys. Like JD Powers where we get an awful lot of data about customers sentiments. And that is really important.
It's really important to me as the head of it, that I really understand what that customer sentiment is and how we can go about improving it. You know, one of the fundamentals, things, when I joined the bank was ability, we weren't where we needed to be from a system stability perspective, and it's been a really maniacal focus of mind. The last four years, really improving that. And we've been proved it by over 75 percent.
And that's one of the first things I heard both from our internal colleagues and our customer base. Let's make sure that the systems that we are building highly reliable, highly resilient, and can withstand some of these bumps in the night that you get occasionally to me. The Gap. Is that your, your Focused in it on systems and reliability. And yet customers, don't think about that, from a customer perspective. You know, if you go on the mobile app or the website, it
just has to work. And so how do you, how do you bridge that Gap into really directly affecting customer perceptions? If you think about what's happened, the last few years, you don't more amore. Or customer expectation. Is that everything can be done through a mobile device. If you look at our own internal stance, you know, that the number of people logging into our mobile applications increased over 22 percent year
over year. The expectation is that people can do a lot more through their mobile device. Whether pain a check-in, you know, they want to do automatically through their mobile device whether check in their balance and, and it really has Being really trying to move some of those what we call, assisted transactions, more, self-service. Because really, that's what our
clients are really looking for. And to do that, it's really important that the systems are architected in such a way that you're able to remove the friction points from customers. And we've been very sensitive to that, in how we're designing the experience of all of our digital applications, How much of this is technology and how much is understanding the nuances of what customers want and then how do you how do you marry those two sides together? For example, one thing has been
phenomenally successful. We rolled out was an easy way for our customers to make an appointment at a branch to check-in. Give us information before they come to the branch. The type of services they're looking for. And then when they get to the branch, they're having that tailored discussion. That talks to I want a mortgage. I want a home equity line. I'm looking for a car loan. You know, my my daughter or son, or about to graduate high school and I'm looking for a student
loan. So being able to tailor those conversations is really, really important and the feedback we've had from our customers. There has been really phenomenal. Animal. You know, we've been in that this journey to really transform
all of our branches. So, you know, when you walk into a citizen of Branch today is very different, from what it was before, there's less teller, you know, lines, there's more Open Spaces, you can walk in you, don't necessarily have to go to the line and putting your card in an ingenico device. You does this in many of our branches. Now, you know, our customer service reps have a tablet. And you can do leverage e-signature to authenticate.
So we know it's you on that tablet without going to at a low line. So, the response from our customers has been really, really positive. So that we're also seeing the same when I if I pivot a second and look at our commercial customers, our commercial customers to want to move more to self-service capabilities. Once again, we're trying to make it very easy for them to log on the systems provided a single sign-on portal that allows them
to log on once. And then to access many of the different commercial applications that they need. We've introduced a digital but Butler Service, where they can get curated answers to certain problems. Very, very easily with we've updated. Our voice response systems to make it very easy for our customers to do business with us. And as I said earlier, we're constantly, we measure, what's going? All MPS, which is the score that
our customers. Give us both our commercial and our consumer customers to make sure that we are, you know, on the right track. It's funny as you were talking. I was thinking, you know, we are a commercial customer Citizens Bank and I haven't been into a branch in a long time, because if I can do everything on my phone, of course, I prefer doing that everything. It's much easier. So, or on the website. So what are the Technologies?
You've kind of alluded to this. But what are the technologies that go into creating that kind of seamless customer experience that you're hoping for a couple of examples of cloud native applications that we built from scratch that are actually where the, the customer feedback has been just, just phenomenal. So when he's for our Student Business, we developed a loan origination and servicing. In platform from the ground up, just over a year, 8.5 million lines of code.
API, microservices architecture, but fundamentally. We really look to improve the customer experience. How come we? We want to make sure that our customers don't have to Providers paper documents. So how can we get that information? How can we leverage the data ecosystem, with the appropriate? Of course, customer consent. Go get that information so we make it very easy. For our customers to enroll to enroll either either do a student refi or get a new
student loan, you know? And and the dispersment is very easy for those loans because we've really looked at the end to end process and made sure from a workflow perspective from origination all the way through to disbursement of the loan. It's very easy for our customers to do business with us. Another example of that is one click. Like he lock or fast, he long, you know, a real the average processing time to process a home. Equity loan, is something like 45 days.
We've been able to cut that down to seven days and in fact, the application process now for existing customers and literally be done in three minutes and the way that we've been able to do that is we Leverage The Power of data. The power of data that we already have these customers to be able to Pre-fill a lot of this information, we're able to do the underwriting automatically leveraging data. We already have we don't have to go out and ask for this data which clearly can take weeks to do.
So, you know, some of these systems have been really phenomenal, they've grown their doubling the amount of Revenue that we've been able to get from some of these products year-over-year. And I think it's primarily because we really Gaston on that customer experience and making it frictionless for our customers to to do business with us. So you see a connection between the streamlining of those processes and the revenue and the customer satisfaction that you're receiving from your
customers. We've seen in the first I think hundred sixty days of launching lending as a service product. We were already over 1 billion in An origination. So, you know, we saw you know, forty percent Improvement in loan turn around and it's really as well as been a satisfying to the customer is also an enormous satisfier for our colleague
base. The used to have to do a lot of these processes manually before literally, they would get a calculator out and calculate some of these things it would made it so much easier for our colleagues who are sometimes on the phone providing advice. Ice by providing this end-to-end workflow, they can see everything from the beginning to the end and certainly the satisfaction of my colleague base, as well as being has been really really positive.
There's a very strong link than between the the ease of use for your internal Bank employees as well as ease of use from the customer perspective and you need both sides in order to create that ultimate customer. That's, that's correct. Absolutely there's a very strong digital transformation theme that's running through this. Can you can you link for us or describe that that connection between the digital transformation of these processes?
All the things you're talking about and customer experience. How does how does customer experience fit into the digital transformation? Landscape, digital transformation, and customer experience. Go hand in hand, you know? Oh, and you know, so I think and the key to a lot of this is the data. If you can provide, if you can make it a custom, you know, make it frictionless for your customers to do business by prefilling information, by making it very easy than to
complete applications. They're able to start an application in a branch. If they don't have time to finish it, we're able to continue that Journey at home. Who is doing those type of things leveraging, the power that we have in terms of the data that we have to make you
easy for our for our customers. Once again, if I look at the client the client facing side as well on the, on the commercial business, you know, we've launched a digitization initiative to make it much easier to enhance client onboarding and are lending processes. You know? We were as I said earlier, we rolled out A single portal for them to log onto, which makes it very easy for them and improves that, that customer experience. We've improved our chat capability.
So if they do need to speak to a client service representative, they can, and it really fits with really citizens is all about white glove treatments, who are our clients and that fits very well with that piece because we can do both. You know, we really want to make sure that we're providing In the South serve capabilities to our clients, they're able to do things themselves but the same time if they need to reach out and talk to somebody, they can we try and make that process
very easy for them. Please hit the Subscribe button at the bottom of our websites, EXO talk.com. So you can subscribe to our newsletter and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Michael from a technology standpoint. So what kind of transformation or change or Evolution? Did you have to make internally within it in order to enable all of this? We sets out by developing a vision and a strategy, we called it.
The Next Generation technology strategy and he had five pillars one, the first was moving to an agile environment, how can we deliver much faster? New It's-- for our customers. Second was, how could we build a library of reusable apis, reusable microservices. So I can develop much more quickly and share if abilities leverage open source.
Once again, with the view of being able to build so much more quickly, the third pillar was around our talent and really making sure we have the right engineering Talent at the bank. The fourth one was about. About our journey to the cloud. So, I will talk a little bit about that later. But you know, the, you know, the journey to the cloud is fundamental from two perspectives, one speed to Market and secondly, to reduce our operating costs.
And then finally, the fifth pillar on this strategy was stability cybersecurity. Making sure the bank is protected. You know we are a regulated entities is very important that as we're making all of these Changes that were, you know, we're protecting our customers data and that we're protecting the stability of the environments and we're very focused on that.
Interesting question, that's come in from Twitter from our Salon Khan who's a regular listener and our Salon thanks for listening and for your great questions and he says given the importance that is attached to improved customer experiences. How do you decide Aside, the financial value of that, and who gets involved, is it the CFO? Is it you as CIO?
How do you, how do you figure out the value of customer experience to Warrant that investment, that you've been making as we moved to an agile Journey would being very focused on, okay, ours, and making sure that we understand the value of the Investments and we're very focused on iterative development. Element, developing MVPs testing
and learning. But, you know, we have these quarterly investment meetings where we look at all of the Investments and we measure whether we're hitting the either, the revenue targets, the operating expense targets, the customer experience targets. So we measure that we report back on that on a quarterly basis and sometimes we make adjustments to those some of those Investments.
So, yeah, we're very focused on looking at the value that, these Investments are giving us. And frankly, moving to Agile, as allowed us to react much more quickly, to that, as I said earlier, before we were doing releases the way, 18 months, two years, sometimes three years, what, you know, you spend an awful lot of money on you know, two or three year program to realize that hold on a minute. This isn't just wasn't hitting
the mark. So now, Much more focused on smaller, releases incremental, releases and measuring.
The effectiveness of those releases on a regular basis that must have required a real shift in the culture, the mindset, The Thinking Inside it5 going from these very large monolithic waterfall, projects to smaller incremental, Agile development, not just a fundamental change for I It but a fundamental change for the business because that, you know, the business now has to develop the user stories in advanced of got to get that
backlog of user stories. So the engineers and be developing at speed, you've got to think through, you know, what, the business cases of these in advance once again smaller increments. And so, you know, that product owner role or experience owner role. Is vital. And we recognize that as Citizens as well. And we've been on a journey to not only say upscale and re-skill our engineering talent, but also our business talents to make sure they have that product
management skill set. You raise a really important point which is very often when it comes to, these types of cultural changes, we talked about what's necessary for it, but it also must be matched on On the business side. Because if I T does not have the right environment in which to work, then the work is not going to get done.
One of the important shifts is part of our strategy was really getting the confidence of the business that we were able to deliver were able to deliver quickly at speed and we have the right frankly engineering caliber that was able to deliver results and we had some some really good successes. Early on with that. I mean things like you know, the small business administration's PPP program after covid.
Really helps us actually because it forced us to work with the business very quickly, Implement new capabilities. So we could help our small businesses and our commercial customers get loans. We were able to develop some of those applications in house with in-house Engineers, very, very quickly. We also, as I said early we We stabilize the environment very quickly as well, which gained the confidence of the business. We've been able to reduce the
number of significant outages. We've been able to reduce the number of risks in the environment considerably the number of security vulnerabilities that were outstanding. So that's given the business a lot more confidence in the partnership that we have with Technologies. And, you know, I would say, you know, we started as a bit of an order taker, I would say and I'm didn't have that, that relationship.
Nation ship. Now, if you had to ask the business, what the relationship is and we have, they would say, it's completely turned around 360 degrees and we have this phenomenal relationship and certainly we can't do it without them. That partnership is really, really important. Can you assign any broad time frame for the change in that relationship from as you said, being an order taker? Historically to A much closer partnership that you have. Right now.
We turn the corner year to, I would say, I think in terms of at least by having that that seats at the at the table, but I would eat some, it's an ongoing Journey. You know, we're partnering with the business where we've been at this agile Journey now about four or five years and, you know, is, is we're still learning, you know, I think it's
and the business is learning. We're learning, you know, we fundamentally changed Operating model, you know, we have we moved to what we call the modern operating model which was done in parallel to the Next Generation technology, which fundamentally the business reorganized, how they worked with Technologies to deliver new capabilities and we'll still maturing that, you know, we're not the certainly not there yet, but we've made significant strides in the right direction.
Again, it's a really interesting point that it's not Just a technology transformation but you have changed your operating model. I was scared. I was going to say, can you assign? Can you say that one is more important than the other and I realized maybe that's kind of a silly question to even ask that you need to do them in parallel and he can't be too far ahead with one or the other either you have to do it in in constant.
And if I, you know, if I have an engineering team who is able to deliver At speed and delivered capabilities to Market at speed. And yet the business is not able to keep up with the backlog of user stories. Then at the end, we're not going to deliver that real true experience to our customers that minimum viable product because it's not going to have everything that the business need.
So it's important you really keep them in tandem going at the at the same pace and you know yeah I don't think one is more important. The other Think it's vital. You know, you keep both moving along and we have another question again from our Salon Khan who says digital transformation is about business transformation and the and he asks about the role of the CIO since the CIO has this very unusual position of seeing across every part of the organization, which is, which is very unusual.
You're not you're not siloed as a A CIO one of the things will be moving towards is what we call a platform approach and this is exactly to tackle this problem which is no, I don't want to develop bespoke. Applications for every single business process that I have. You know, why do I need one application for student loan? Originations one application for credit loan applications, one application for mortgage applications one application or platform for home equity
applications loan. Originations if I can build a set of common components that can be reused across all of Them going to be much faster time to Market and frankly, much cheaper to build out. So the lending as a service example that I gave earlier, you know, the 8.5 million lines of code that we developed Cloud native application. We've built it so it can be reused. Not only for our student lending business, for our personal loans, for our credit card loans, and different different
platforms. So as the CIO, you're absolutely right? I can step back And take that platform approach and say, hold on, this is how we should
architect this system. And explain the benefits of that for the business and sometimes you have to make, sometimes they will agree and you'll you can wait and, you know, and sometimes you might have to go ahead and because the business is it's such a priority to the business, you have to build a bespoke application of go out and buy a I spoke package. So sometimes that happens, but making that conscious decision is really, really, really important.
The second piece of that is, you know, which we've been on a journey as well as to replace our all our core platform. So you know, we have a legacy or and would be modernizing that platform we, you know, we've actually moving to a cloud native, modern banking platform and Again, that's based on these reusable building blocks. And as a CIO sub to me to articulate to our business, how that can be leveraged across the
broader business? Not just for one particular business line, or I can, how can I use that? Not just for our consumer business but also for our Commercial Business for our small business business. So it's very, you know, I do have that unique vantage point and having taking this Platform approach, building reusable building blocks that we can reuse across different business lines helps with that. How do you go to the business and say to the business folks? We need to architect well,
pretty much everything. How do you begin that conversation? We did and we have. And, you know, what we did was we set out creating a set of blueprints and roadmaps and, you know, we laid that plan out We, you know we said look rom-com, be built in a day, right?
You not going to be able to transform all of these platforms overnight, but we've touched in the last four years, a great many of them and we've made strides in improving them, but I think the fundamentally, the most important thing, first was setting out the architectural Blueprints and knowledge in where you have platforms that are out of date that need
updating. Resizing which of the ones that you need to upgrade first and and aligning that, you know, with the business, it may be okay. That you have a platform that's old if it's not a growing part of the business. That is just working works every day. Why touch it, right? So you just park that and you say, okay, we will put that in a maintain category, we will maintain it, but these other systems that are a growth, they're going to help us grow
the bank. We will invest in and that's Those blueprints do and These Blueprints fundamentally have to be done in partnership with the business, where you lay out that roadmap to say, over time over the next three to five years is what we're focused on and get that alignment with the business is really fundamental at that time. How did you approach the business in terms of arguing, on the one hand about the need from a technology standpoint versus on? On the other hand, arguing the
need from a business standpoint. I think you've got to show both, right? You've got to show one of the one of the short-term medium-term long-term advantages to the business sometimes. Sometimes they may be immediate benefits to implements in these small scale changes that can move the business forward. But sometimes you have to show that longer that longer vision and show that over time, here's How this is going to benefit you?
If you look at, for example, core magnetization, journey is a five-year Journey. We are, you know, we started it. But when we're not going to be, we're not going to move all of our existing products to this new Cloud native platform until about 20, 27. But we laid out that road map for the business and show them what we've launched. Now we've got all of our digital bank is now on this new platform, eighty thousand customers in production, our savings account is on that platform.
So I was able to launch that. Now, I'm building out checking capabilities by the end of the year and then I can move our checking customers onto that platform different products, one by one, but, you know, next year. So, yeah, I think it's showing that That journey and, but you've got to create business value along the way.
It wouldn't have worked if I'd have gone to the business said, well in 2027, you're going to get a brand-new shiny system and, you know, we will be able to, you know, put things on it, then you've got to do it incrementally. You've got to show the value incrementally. And that's, that's what we're doing. We're I'd like to say were biting. The elephant one bite at a time. We're not trying to read to all at once. Talking about the impact on
customer experience. And so can you just again link for us all of this technology transformation, business transformation to that upper level theme of how does this help customer experience? If you look at our digital application? You know, we did 970 releases last year, 1972 only Lisa's. So we were able to take that customer feedback and really incorporate changes rapidly into our mobile app. It has a 4.7 rating on the app store which is, you know, is pretty high.
And so by building component, by building this component-based architecture in the cloud, we're able to deliver new capabilities so much faster. We're able to react to Industry Trends as the banking industry. As tackled fees, you know, we were able to reduce our fees and give customers who, you know, if 24-hour grace period for, you know, an overdraft we're able to
implement those capabilities. Very quickly were able to implement capabilities, such as you can now, see your paycheck on a Wednesday as opposed to a Friday. And once again, we're able to deliver those capabilities very quickly on the All platforms, we wouldn't have been able to do that, you know? Before I talked earlier about the branches, you can walk into a branch, the, the branch Personnel have a Tabla and they can service you on that tablet.
You don't have to go to the teller machine, we have e-signature capability. So there's many ways that we're making it easier for our customers do business with us. When you look at our the new new account origination, For new customers, that sign up. We really made it far fewer clicks to be able to do a lot of that information far. You were far fewer details, that they have to enter, that's making it easier for our customers to do business with
dramatically reduced. The time, it takes to apply for a new checking account, you know, or a new deposit account, or a new credit card, by leveraging, the power that we have Have in the data here at solisten. So I think there are some examples might Chris Peterson asks when you were talking earlier about building blocks Blueprints and roadmaps and this is a, this is a pretty geeky question. So see how see how are you? How you'll respond to this? Did that come from adopting or
maturity? Maturing it Frameworks like togaf or ITIL when you Think about the standard set of apis that we're building, you know, we leverage vein, right? Which is the, you know, Institute that publishes standard apis for the banking, you know the banking industry certainly from an architecture perspective, we follow togaf toga principles so we definitely look at them.
When you look from a cyber perspective we've built all the controls that the knee Mist Foundation recommends, in terms of cyber best practices and and building protection into the code. So you know yes we definitely look at all these types of outside standards and and where possible we we you know we adopt them absolutely.
This is from Elizabeth Shaw. Who says, how do you know which aspects of the customer Variants from the customers point of view, needs Improvement. And then how do you map that onto how it can help? I'll give you one example. ATMs. No, couple of years ago we had a lot of feedback on the about a customer's dissatisfaction with ATMs. Now we've jumped up this year to fourth in the ranking in JD Powers on our ATMs and year. We've introduced things like
Multi determination. So you when you go to an ATM you can ask for. Do you want 20s, you want hundreds, how do you want your money? You can also enter personal preferences so that. Next next time you go, we automatically know that you always get $500 out and you always want to in hundreds. So, you know, there's those personal preferences.
We've also made it easier if you don't want to carry any card and you can tap and go with your mobile device and get cash out from Ivar ATMs now with your mobile device. So you know, direct feedback from our customers and we prioritize that set of activity and really we've significantly improved you know the quality I would say for our customers of our of our network of 3,000 plus ATMs, just one example.
But you know, we always listen to our customers and you know, we prioritize a lot of those Those customer experiences that are raised another question from Twitter. Our Salon cam comes Khan comes back again. And he says, how is digital transformation different than any other IT project. And can you explain this from the perspective that for, and that an on it person would understand. I'll give you one example that we've been doing as part of our digital transformation, is what
we call war on paper. All right? So You know, if you think about it in the, you know, the olden days, you know, if you need to prove your income, you have two axes or walk into a branch and give us your payroll stub. Or if you're a company you have to give us your tax information. Now, a lot of that information now is available through apis. That I can go get right with appropriate customer consent. So You know, that's where the digital transformation really
comes. In of those business processes is, you know, how can I digitize that same in our Commercial Business? We really digitized a lot of the documents that are clients after providers in terms of wanting to request loans, Etc. So we've been very focused on making that very easy for our clients to do everything to sign through DocuSign rather than Sign in, you know, manually and having to supposed to or fax or send that type of material in. So those are just a couple of examples.
But you know, that that war on paper in, not only is a big customer experience, satisfying fundamentally as well. Was uses our operating expenses. You think we don't have to keep all this paper. We don't have to post it and the postage fees that go with that. You're also able to reduce your costs by I reducing the amount of paper that you have. So just one example of where digital transformation fundamentally replaces some you know, business processes.
What about Cloud? You've mentioned Cloud several times. So we're does cloud fit into this. And why is the cloud so important to this cloud is fundamental to our overall architecture, you know, we we started, we have a multi Cloud strategy. So we're on both. Aw, OS and Microsoft Azure. We started on AWS. So a lot of the mobile applications that I talked about of all been built on on AWS add data platforms. You know we had several Appliance Solutions, we were on
the teaser on terror. Dates are on IBM, biginsights on hortonworks. We've eliminated a lot of those Appliance aleutians. Now everything is in a data Lake on AWS. We're able to build, you know, customer 360, which is a view of all of our customers relationships with us. We're able to our product master. So we really understand fundamentally, what are our customers and what products they use. So, when we built all of that on the cloud, you know, we're moving to more real-time using
data data, streaming tools. Enable us to make decisions real-time, that's what our customers want. They want instant gratification, If ocation, right, so all of that is enabled on the on the cloud. So and it's just fundamentally improve that time to Market. So, you know, before you would have to order a server and then you would have to order the operating system, then the database, then you would have to lay the application down on that. You know, we've automated a lot
of that. We've automated a lot of the security controls so you know, as I build out Code. And I put it on this pipeline. No, now I can do releases in under 15 minutes. It would used to take four hours because it's all fully automated in the cloud and I've built in the controls. I don't need someone in security to check the code, check out the code, look at the code and say
is it free of vulnerabilities? I already I scan for that, I automatically scan for it and produce, you know I say yeah that code can move forward into production. It's free. Vulnerabilities, free of defects. So you know the clown has helped us enable that we've built what we call a platform as a service, which is a sort of development toolkit for our Engineers on the cloud, able to develop so much faster. Once again, reusable utilities. They don't have to do error
handling. We already pre-built that and they can reuse that. You don't need to build logging so already reuse and they can reuse that on the platform. So many, Of these capabilities, allow our developers to really move at speed in the cloud. It's also enabling us to really improve resiliency because we have multiple availability zones within the cloud. We have multiple regions. So we're able to fail over from one region to another region.
And so it's really improve the availability of our most important here, one applications. And then finally you know cost You know, ultimately our plan is to exit our data sensors by 2025, by the end of 2025, that unlocks massive amount of operating expenses that we can feed back in to other things at the bank, either more development, more, new capabilities or other priorities
for the bank. But unlocking that and, and, you know, we see the cloud as a much cheaper alternative to having our own a brick-and-mortar in our own data senses. So again, there is this technology architecture that enables the agility and the responsiveness to customer needs customer requests, which therefore, improves customer experience and proves revenue, and all the good things
associated with that. Absolutely, you brought it full circle Michael. As we finish up Any closing thoughts on this alignment of it with customer experience? One piece of advice, I'd give is make sure you have the right talents. We we swung the pendulum a little too far over to Outsourcing. I would say, you know, four or five years ago and we've now swing that pendulum will be back with hired. 550 software Engineers, the bank, we've trained and Reese killed over
400 stuff. For engineers by developing, an internal academies, badging certification programs and and our colleagues love it. They love the fact that we're investing in them, they're able to use new technologies. These academies that they've learnt 30 different, new technologies, whether that's mongodb or snowflake, or postgres sequel. Whether it's the new Dev, say cops tooling that we've been able to bring in and, you know, new apis microservices. So you know, they have this
engineer. Muscle. They did people in Technologies, they were computer science grads. They just lost that muscle. They were they were managing and not doing and so, you know, we've now enabled them by re-skilling them, retraining them to do again. And so I would say, invest in your people invest in your talent, train them would be, you know, one piece of advice. And then, you know, also look at the external Market Place, bring the right talent in so they can
coach and mentor. Your existing Talent base as well, but that's that's fundamental, I would say, get the, get the talent rides and other things will fall, will fall in place. Great advice, get the talent rate and other things will fall in place and with that, we're out of time. And so I just want to say Michael, thank you so much for taking your time to be with us today. Thank you, Michael everybody. Thank you for watching. Especially those folks who asks
such excellent. It and insightful questions. Now before you go please hit the Subscribe button at the bottom of our websites EXO talk.com so you can subscribe to our newsletter and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel. Check out cxo talk.com and we will see you again next time. Have a great day everybody.