Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Said day, I'm here with my good buddy, Corey Miller. I met Corey when he owned Triple X Archery down in Oregon, and then since then he's uh, he's moved to Montana for the for the he ran away from Western Washington and now works for dart and Archery Black eagl Archerie and excited to have him on the show. To Hey, Ben, Corey, you know Glad.
I don't know if you heard. I guess I was doing my tour through the beautiful state of Oregon and Washington, and I.
See I was in Kansas hunt, but I've seen pictures of the beautiful Uh people wanted your bows in the back of your truck more than you did.
Yeah, they broke my windows out and to my bows. But other than that, just reminded me why I wanted to live in Montana and just kind of be left alone out here.
Yeah.
You and then the when you came to help get my boat set up. You drove it all the way from Montana to Washington. We got it all set up and I think we had three inches of rain that day. Yeah, it was that was That was a good reminder of how much easter rain here.
Yeah, exactly, it's just barely start a snow here, So I'll take the snow over the rain.
So no, we've you know, I I was always just, I would say, a bow hunter. I never knew anything about bow's. I would say, I still can't really set my bow up. But you know, back back in the old days, you would just go to the you know, we had George here and I don't remember, do you remember what his shop was? Originally twelve there.
Yeah, on Jackson Highway.
So I had a local or the archery House, archery house at archery House. So you know, I grew up as a as a right full muzzloader hunter, and so when I got into archery, you know, you buy a bow back then, it was pick a bow off of the front page of the you know, the Cabello's magazine, right, and it was mail order. I didn't know that that wasn't the way you're supposed to do it. They would really prefer if she went and bought a bow off of their off of the rack, and so I had
to find somebody set it up. Evidently you can't just you know, put a put a rest on everything on. And so I did that for a couple of years, and you know, through the Internet, the explosion Internet realized that Corey was down there at Triple X Archery, went down there and really started I wouldn't say it became a student, but started to pay more attention like does
this matter? Do I need to focus on this? And Corey was the one that kind of you know, he He's got an uncanny way of letting you know, like Jason, spending spending this on that rest isn't going to make you shoot more or you know, or shoot better, or spending this much more money on a site, because in my mind back then, it's like, well, obviously the better this or that is going to make me a better shooter.
And and Corey was pretty pretty uh up front, He's like, why don't you spend more time shooting?
Or why don't you do this and that?
And and so that's really what I want to jump into today a little bit is what matters, you know, four a hunter, what matters for a target archer? What you know when I look at a bow, You've got your bow, then you've got your site, your rest, your stabilizer, you got your release you've got your arrows right, there's just a few things that you could control.
And Corey's always did a good job.
I've been able to listen to him interact with customers, interact with people that are on his staff that aren't on his staff, and I kind of like the way he approaches it. So I'm excited to have you on here and really just kind of talk through archery and maybe reduce it down to maybe new people in archery or people that have been in it for a long time that maybe aren't the greatest shots or and what really matters and what they should probably focus on more so than than not.
Yeah, you know, it's definitely most definitely learning how to shoot a bow is top priority. And at that point, it doesn't matter if you've got the most expensive or the cheapest bow. If you don't know how to shoot it, you can only shoot to your ability. And you know, for the most part, most of the bows today will outshoot most of us archers. So they're that good, they're that consistent. I mean, we've really pushed everything as almost
as far as we can push it. You know, cam material, string material, riser material, you know, all that stuff has gotten better and more consistent. So learning how to shoot is priority.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we're gonna I'm gonna bause us just for a second. I'm gonna jump into just like three questions that I get that maybe I'm not skilled, you know, I'm not the appropriate one to answer. So I'm gonna jump in. This is gonna be your Penalton Whiskey, Q and A sessions. So I'm gonna throw three questions at Kory and kind of see, you know what your opinion, and it kind of gets us, gets us into our conversation. But just some questions that I'm I'm you know, given
and maybe not the right one to answer. And number one, you know me and you do you know seminars clinics, you know, we both we the last couple of times we've did it, we've been at our our buddy, you know, Ryan Lampers, you know, his Hunt summit, and and Joel Turner's there and he gets into this like mental side of shooting, which I try to completely block out because I don't want to get target panic. I'm so competitive that I don't want to try to hit a perfect
circle all the time. So I've always kind of blocked out everything Joel. I like Joel, but I've blocked out everything he tries to teach because I don't want to get inside my own head. But in your opinion, and not as a target archer, I believe that ninety nine percent of the people that listen to this podcast ninety nine percent of people that pick up their bow or it's just strictly bowhunters. But what should you be thinking
of as you're shooting? Should you come up with a routine, should you just be thinking about aiming your bow and you know, squeeze your trigger like in your opinion, what should that process be or look like for most guys?
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think there is kind of a bridge of target archery to hunting, you know, as far as nerves of kind of getting used to shooting amped up and a little nervous.
But yeah, I.
Used to go through definitely a shot process, and my main thing was for me is I just kept simple look through the peep because so many times I'll watch guys just draw back and anchor eyes wide open. They forget to even look through the peep and you know, they see the site housing start to fill up with hair and they're just anking the trigger, you know, so trying to keep keep a shot process, keep your mind occupied,
I think a little bit better. So I do believe in both sides of you know, kind of a lot of the stuff that Joel's talking about and also keeping it simple. But ever since I've moved to Montana, me personally, like I used to shoot tournament wise, I think, you know, very competitively and very well. When it would come to hunting, it was a different a whole different deal for me because of the heartbeat, and so I never felt like I executed shots like I do on rubber animals or
paper targets, so beings. And I'm in Montana and I get to shoot a lot of white tails, I think one hundred percent, I've gotten so much better. I've gotten so much more comfortable of putting a pin on an animal and then going through my shot process. So unfortunately, a lot of us only get an opportunity once a year or maybe once there a couple of years to put the pin on the on the animals. So going through a shot process is going to help as much
as it can. But experience, really, but there's just cold boot killers, you know that can't really hit paper. But they break the hunting thing down really simple, like like you're more of that, Like you point to where I need to put an arrow to kill it, and that's it, and you don't overthink that. You just pretty much drawback and it's got to be there and touch it off.
Yeah, And that's for me, uh, you know, and why I try to like block out the mental game. But we're gonna get into hunting versus target accuracy and what's required. But for me, I didn't want you know, I shoot a matrix target and it's got a six inch hecks in the middle, right, and I I as long as I'm in that. And maybe I should put more pressure on myself to be a better archer, but and.
I do.
Okay, right, I'm not the world's best archer, but I shoot pretty good for the most part. But I've never put enough pressure on myself to always hit dead center of the white, you know, like a target archer would need to have to do it twenty yards over and
over and over. Like if I'm an inch and a half off, hey, it's okay, Like let's we'll clean that up up next time, or we'll we'll hold a little tighter, or you know, maybe it was the thirtieth shot of the practice session and I'm getting a little bit tired. And so I've really not over complicated the mental side,
because I've seen people get target panic. I don't truly understand it, but my understanding is that if I try to overfocus on being perfect, is going to create that because I'm going to try to force a shot and I'm going to try to do these things.
Yeah, exactly. I've seen so many new archers come in, get a both set up and shoot really really actually really well. I mean i mean not like professional well, but I mean really well, and then a month later they come in and they've got target panic. And it seems like the majority of that is because they try too hard. They start overthinking and like, Okay, I'm going to get this one right in the middle, and so they really overthink the shot process and next thing, you know,
they've got the old panic. And Yeah, so sometimes just being dumb as best.
I'm gonna be. I'm I'm built for this archery thing. But uh yeah, as far as like what I think about as shooting, I'm similar to you. I've made it very you know, a rigid structured thought process. So I'm gonna draw my bow back, and I even think as soon as I start to put tension on my release, like draw smood like because as a hunter, I don't want an arrow to balance off the rest or. I
don't want like a hard into the valley. So I'm already thinking like draws mood, don't let this animal see you do this, you know, and if you took it a step back farther like, it doesn't even have anything do with a bow hunter. But I'm already thinking like when can I draw and then making it smooth? So like can I get away with drawing?
Now? Can I make it smooth?
And then similar to you, I used to have a bad I would look through my peep. I've never not looked through my peep, but I would maybe not center the peep on the you know, I shoot a Montana black gold. So now I make sure to to halo my peep with my center housing. So that's a consistency thing. I've always got my my pins completely centered in just they just barely fit inside the peep size that I select.
And then I glance down at my bubble and sometimes me and my bubble this is where you know, things can go a little sideways, because if you know, in a hunting situation, if I'm on a thirty degree side hill, I'm like, I don't believe you and being able to shoot enough with you during three D like, I'll sometimes split it like all right, I'm way out, but I'm going to go about halfway and then shoot what I feel is comfortable, because shooting all the way back to
the level is completely uncomfortable. And so for me, for my confidence and just shooting enough, I usually like do a half bubble where I feel like it's comfortable, and then I go into my aiming process, so I've got everything aligned, I've got my bubble where I think it should be, and then you know, go through my my you know, ranging process, and a lot of times I
may not have ranged exactly where the animal is. So now I'm back to thinking why I'm in my peep, like is that at the same spot you've ranged, do I need to add or take you away? And then slowly start to squeeze my trigger. And when I say slowly, I also which is probably frowned upon. I've also got the ability to force my shot, which some people can say is good or bad. But as a hunter, you know, and talking with you Corey, like, sometimes you need to
make the bow go off. If you're doing everything else right, it's still gonna be okay. And I have practiced that way. But I'll also force a shot a little bit if needed. And so that's my process, whether it's right or wrong. But it's very mechanic, and you know, for all situations, I do the same thing over and over and over.
Yeah, And I think the biggest you know, like a lot a lot of people think, you know, just punching the trigger is bad. It's not sometimes the most consistent thing for some folks. There are definitely some of the top shooters in the world are punchers. They command shoot. You know. One of the best quotes that one of those guys ever gave me was, I just got to get the pin there. You're trying to keep it there and which which made sense, you know, to me. But
my brain doesn't work that way. If I start commanding the trigger, my aiming goes away, and so it's not so much about me just punching the trigger, but then I can't get the pin anywhere near the target that I want to shoot because then I've lost all the control on the function of the release. And so for me, I have to go through a shot process on activating the release, which which helps me with my aim, and
the aim is the most important thing. So if I'm not putting a pin anywhere near there, and I'm locking low, and that's where the dangerous side of target panic is is when the guy can't put the pin anywhere near the dot, whether or not he gets it there, and he instantly swipes it away and gets down below it and sits there and then does the drive by shooting, And that's when they they're they're yarding up and trying to punch the trigger at the same time. That's when
command commanding the trigger is is at its worst. But if your if your pin is there and you help it not the end of the world.
So while we're here, I was I have this question for our discussion later, but I feel like it's a good time to add it in because I've always been interested, like if you took like a body turner or like your if I could somehow equip a red light, a laser light that we could all see, like how much movement should a shooter because That's the thing I struggle with, Like I'm sitting here at full draw, like trying to pull through, and I've always I've found that the you know,
if I'm if I'm actively pulling, I'm not like a passive shooter. But if I'm actively engaged, my pin is dancing right from a from a five to a ten, and it swings to the ten, and then we might be low left and it might be I'm over correct and then we're going top right and you're just kind of hovering like I've always just assumed guys like Matt Schmidtz or Body or guys that are good shooters, like, is that damn pin just like sitting over the taneg the entire time and not moving or yes, those guys
are fighting with the same demons that I do. Like, is this thing's bouncing everywhere?
Well, that's the thing is we can never see what goes inside the brain while they're aiming. So whether or not a Bodie Turner or Site pictures is the same as yours, No, it's not. I mean, those guys aim extremely well, but when you look, if you were to look through their eyes, they're still seeing movement even though when we stand back and we watch them, we're like, man, the guy's rock solid. He's still seeing movement. The difference
is he's okay with that movement. He's learned to trust that, where a lot of us feel like we need to hold perfectly still and you don't, you know, because the pin if you're staring at what you're trying to hit, you're always trying to work your way back to that box. So it's okay if it moves. You just don't want
these big dips, big violent moves. But if it's humming out there and it's just kind of dancing around, you'd be amazed on how much if you just keep trusting that process and shoot that shot, it's it's going to get there.
It surprised me a little bit, and I always hated the idea that if you're just constantly adding, you know, more back tension, you're slowly squeezing through your release. But I'm like, what if this thinge accidentally goes off on that like low left, you know when you're going away, but it surprisingly does come back. But I'm more confident in the way that I think that if I can somehow force that to go off as we're coming back
to the center, and it's somewhat controlled. I've always got you know, I don't know whether it's sixty seventy percent of the pressure I need to get my release to go off. So I'm always it's not like a huge jerk within the shot or a huge change, it's just a little bit more.
Well. The one thing one thing with aiming though, too is it's not only is it the setup of the of the equipment, but it's also the setup in your shot process. Going back to learning how to shoot a bow is so important. Learning how to shoot a bow is also learning how to aim a bow. And so you will find as you start to push towards the target and pull into the stops that pin can the movement will will minimize, it'll it'll start to reduce traumatically,
you know. So if I'm pushing at you, it's like less likely that the pen can go some other direction. If I'm going I'm pushing it forward toward the target, And same thing with pulling. So that's that initial setting up into the shot and how much do I build into the back wall to get the pin to minimize its movement. And then now you're activating the release during that time. But yeah, we all move don't overthink that side of it.
So, uh, you know, as a hunter yourself in your opinion, like what should you know a shooting session look like? Like is there an ideal one or is it different for everybody? Or like, guy go out and shoot twenty random arrows. You know a lot of my sessions look like, all right, we're gonna shoot five from twenty five, from thirty five, from forty five from fifty and call a night. Like is there is there a number that like builds better muscle memory or is there just no standard?
You know? I I part of me like the functionality of a bow is like riding a bike to me, I mean, I haven't rode a bike in three years. If I got on, I'm not gonna crash. I'm not gonna fall over. It's not that hard. It's the mental side of it, like the repetitive like looking through the site, seeing movement, trusting movement, how much movement, and activating the release.
So depends on what you're trying to work on, you know, if you're just and I think that's where a lot of people make mistakes, is they they call practice the amount of arrows they shoot. And if you're not practicing something. It's just like any other sport. If you're a wrestler, you're working on certain moves. If you're a baseball player, you're working on footwork, throwing, dance, you know, movement, You're you're breaking everything down. And it's the same thing with archerie.
If you really want to get good at it, you break down certain things and you practice those things for those days. So depending on what you're trying to accomplish, But just shooting arrows does not make you a better archer.
I just noticed, like especially when I pick up a bow or like right now, since I'm so far away from big game season, you know, even my white tail hunt, Like I stop shooting my bow for that two months, right, and then you get to the white tail rut and you're like, oh, pins moving more. My you know, I'm
not as trained. You know, I'm fatigue faster. And that's what I I'm just out there trying to you know, cause I hesitate to say this, But for me, I shoot the same whether I pick up my boat for the first time of the year, whether it's the day before archialk season, like I don't become that much more accurate, like.
No, and typically like I start out more accurate than I am because I start overthinking stuff no longer I start shooting, you know, you know, especially like we're transitioning into target world right now, and so usually the first week or so, it's like, man, my expectations aren't there. So I actually shoot fairly well, and then all of a sudden, I start thinking, Okay, I'm gonna try a little bit harder, and then and then the wheels fall off.
Fall off. Yeah.
Yeah, that's and my sessions will be you know, as an archery hunter, i might go out and only shoot three arrows, but I'm gonna try to set my stop watch and hold the boat for a minute and a half and still execute like a good shot. You know, like you said, maybe working on Maybe that's not teaching anything, but it's just letting me know, like, all right, you're okay, you're on early.
But what what that does can teach is also fatigue, which is gonna which is going to also help see a little bit more movement and then you can trust more movement in that shot process. You know. So for me, like if you're gonna there's certain things of just even practicing aiming, and if you have a three D target, the best thing to do is just to walk around and say, okay, where do I need to point on this animal to kill it? You know? Is it tucked
up front? Is it coming back from the third rib back? You know? Not necessarily we're looking at scoring rings, but looking at angles of how would I address that, and then working on just drawing back and pointing the pin on it. If it's working on execution of shop process. I like shooting up close or shooting at big dots. I want my brain to say it's okay to put the pin in the dots, Okay to see the movement, It's okay to activate the release as I see movements.
So that's all reinforcing positive stuff. By shooting up close and shooting at bigger dots, A lot of people think, you know, shooting at smaller dots. For some people maybe that does help, but for me it's it's the trust factor and not getting anxiety any about trying to hold somewhere. So I like shooting big dots, yep, up close.
We'll get we'll get into that on my side a little bit on hunting versus target and what accuracy is really required to go out there on shooting the big dots or pipe plates. For me, last question is a new hunter, what distance should I prepare for? Like, you know, you got these guys making one hundred yard shots everyone on social media like three hundred yard shots now or four hundred yard shots. It's like, realistically, where should you set your site tape up to? How much time should
you spend shooting there? And then realistically we can both answer like the majority of your shots should be well under that unless you're out in open country letting them fly.
That's kind of a bad question, you know, I mean because honestly, like like with social media right now, I see so much fighting in arguments, and at the end of the day, a lot of this stuff is morals up to you. Your equipment that you want to use, your distance that you want to shoot, the animal size that you want to kill. All that stuff is up to you, And I don't care what anybody else's opinion is my personal opinion. I haven't shot an elk over
forty yards in probably fifteen years. Far. Thet shot I've taken in those last fifteen was an antelope at fifty two yards this year, everybody's going to be different, and whatever those decisions that you make, you have to live and die by those. So we've all lost animals, I'm pretty sure you know, and it sucks, and none of
them make it any better. But I know, for me personally, if the little voice in my head is questioning whether or not I should try to attempt this distance or this shot and I lose an animal, it burns more because I knew better. Yeah, it's a hard question for me to even say.
Yeah, yeah, And it's all moral and I thinks. But as far as like the prac the side of you know, preparing, like shooting at eighty yards doesn't make you any better of an archer than shooting at for as long as your groups are half the size, right, you know, there are more environmental.
In a way. I mean, you know, sometimes, like I like shooting practice and stuff, I tend to shoot better at longer distances sometimes than I do, say it, you know, forty or thirty yards, because my expectations go up so much more. So I I have less expectation at these longer distances, and it seems like the site sits better and shots break better. But shooting long distance does amplify the mistakes. But you also have to be smart enough
to understand what those mistakes are. And then you also have to be honest in those mistakes of why am I missing? Is it because my movement is so bad? Or is it because my tune is bad? Or is it because I'm punching the release? You know, So there's it will definitely show you some stuff, but you also got to be smart enough to understand what it's showing you to fix it, gotcha, But definitely, you know, the longer you shoot the further distances. Everybody will say the
closer shots seem easier. I don't know. Yeah, they all can mean something. So the more it means something, the harder the shot is.
Yeah. Yep, no, no, that was a tough question.
And and you know it gets into the moral and ethics of it, which, as you said, only the hunter or the archer can can you answer that what's good for them and what they should prepare for the day. It's all on them the shot they decided to take on a live animal.
Yeah, and so sometimes you know, sometimes the negative side of that is shooting target wise at long distances can give some guys some false hope, and there again it kind of goes back into that moral thing of that guy's decisions. But we all know, we all can agree that the further the distance, more things can happen. That animal can turn, that animal can take a step, the wind can blow. There's just there's a lot of things that can happen at longer shots.
Yep.
Yeah, Well, thanks for jumping in as and answering those Penalton questions and answers. Once again, if you guys have questions for myself, for our guests, feel free to email them to us at CTD at Phelps Gamecalls dot com, or send us a message on social media. We'll do our best to get them get them in here. So now we're gonna jump into the conversation I wanted to have.
You know, and if you sit around a bow shop long enough for if you cruise the internet for long enough, it seems like everybody is trying to and buy their way to be in a better shot, or buying their way into more x's, I guess you could say on the target. So I'm going to open this up. Is there a way to spend money to become better or is it truly in the mechanics of you know, your shot or your practice or your mental you know side of the game.
Best money spent is probably coaching, which of us never do. Equipment. There's certain equipment I do definitely think that you can purchase that can help releasing one of them.
Because can we dive into coach not to interrupt you, let's dive into coaching a little bit. So like for me as a guy that plays football, basketball, baseball, Like in my mind, there's all this stuff I can coach you on you There's so many different aspects like an archery coach, like are they gonna you know, just is it literally them watching you shoot and making corrections or are they going to give you like are there are there certain things you should be doing, like you had
mentioned earlier, when you practice, you should be practicing, you know, on improving certain things. So like what does an archery coach look like?
Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be different levels of that of what your expectations are as an archer. So if it's like I am a brand new archer and I need a coach to start me from the basics from my foot, my stance to how I grip a bow, my posture, my head alignment, my release alignment. There's that type of coach. It's more of a form coach, and then there's more of a coach for the mental side. After you've kind of gotten that side down, then it kind of goes
into the mental side of things. So it depends on what your expectation of being an archer is and what were you are as an archer, So learning the good fundamentals of proper draw lengths. The unfortunate thing is that everybody on the internet is a coach, and every one of them will tell you what you're doing wrong. And I feel like a lot of these people like to tell you what you're doing wrong, so that makes them sound like they're educated and know what they're talking about.
If I can point out everything you're doing wrong. I've never seen anybody really ever get on there and point out all the good things someone's doing. And I think a lot of it is because they really don't know. And so it's always the same thing. Your drawings too long,
you're gripping the bow and you're punching the release. It's the same always, over and over and over and over So I think the other problem is there also is a lot of archers that want to help other archers, and so there's you can get overwhelmed with a lot of information and sometimes it's good. But if I had any advice to anybody is either find a coach, and if you can't find a coach in your area, try to go to some league nights and find a good archer who has time and who is willing to maybe
help you. And stick with one person, one person, and because you'll will get bombarded by ten other people telling you something different at the end of the day, listen to one person and then you're going to be so much better off.
Gotcha, Okay, all right, I'll let you. I'll let you keep rolling back to the equipment now, So the end.
Of the equipment side, I definitely think you know a release on how a release functions goes back into that mental side of shot execution too, So having having a release that you are comfortable with. So a lot of cheaper releases run on springs, so there there's a lot more travel into the triggers. So if you are a guy trying to learn how to do back tension and
pull through a shot you're feeling. You're feeling that trigger starting to move, move, move, and every time that thing is starting to move, that anxiety of the shot happening starts doing increase where you get into a high quality released, whether or not be an index released. Carter like Mike's have sears that you actually engage a seer, which gives you a trigger with no travel, and that's where most of your thumb releases buttons are that way. They have
a seer that you engage, you cock it. You're setting the hammer the seers, and then you can you can set that tension to what feels good for your brain. Some guys like a real heavy trigger, some guys like a lighter trigger. You know, for me, it's kind of that medium. I want to be not scared of touching the barrel, but I want to know that I actually have to pull on that or push on that barrel to get it to fire. So a release definitely can
you can buy some of that in that. The next thing would probably be an air arrest, because they are arrest is something that's probably moving. I think where you overspend definitely one hundred percent is on a site. I'll get hate for this one. Probably I can't see spending the dollars on a lot of the sites. I think target wise, yes I can. I can justify some of this stuff, but hunting wise, there's a lot of that stuff is overrated for hunters. You know. For me personally,
I don't shoot past forty yards. I don't need a lot of that stuff. It gives me something to point with as long as it's sturdy, that's all I care about.
Yeah, I mean, some of these sites are eight hundred dollars. They don't even range find for you. And then you get the ones that do range find for you. I don't even know where those are at anymore. But it's like, man, it's just you know, crazy expensive. And you know, I was humbled because I've got a movable site.
Right.
So, our buddy Matt Schmidt shows up to my house he wants to learn how to elk call one day, and evidently he's going to teach me how to shoot. I didn't know I was signed up for that, but like, the guy shoots what was it seven or eight fixed pins? He you know, he had a seven and then added some other pins to it or something, and like, so I'm out here trying to dial to the exact range, and he's just out there, and I'm like, all right, evidently this slider doesn't matter. You know, he's just and
and so it's kind of enlightening. And if you think about it, we talked about it, as long as your pin's not haloed, and there's not, you know, it's bright and it's got enough fiber optic hanging out of it, like it's literally just a fixed reference diameter. It's a fixed diameter of a glow, like it's got some bright light at a point zero one nine, or it's got
a bright light at point zero zero nine. As long as that thing solid and doesn't I think you might you might be willing to spend more on a site as a hunter that you know, like, all right, it's fairly durable, right, I.
Want to aluminum housing. I don't want plastics other than that. Like for the last until someone stole my site, I didn't have third access leveling on it. I didn't want it. I didn't need it. I shoot two pins twenty forty and it's also it's that gap for me twenty forty on an ELK. Is that actually a range finder? It's it's the back to the belly of an elk at
fifty yards. So if I'm at full draw and something boogers and and I'm still panning over on that elk, I can look at that gap of the pins and I know if he's inside the shooting range or not, and then by that I know where my hold is with that forty yard pin. So I like to keep it simple on that, you know, with Matt, with having all those pins, but Matt's, you know, a world champion pin shooter. It's where he really cut his teeth on learning how to stack pins gap pins, and you know
he can. He can shoot all those pins. To me, it's much too much in my sightline stuff, too confusing to me.
So so you know, then you've got like what I would consider you know, your your site and your rest seem to be like your two big accessories, and then you've got like the minor accessories. You've got your stabilizers, You've got these other like are those in my mind?
They're just a distance with a sentiment of weight, right, And not to discredit any of these companies out here making great stabilizers, but it's like, all right, I've got a ten inch rod with four ounces of weight, or I've got an eight inch odd with twelve you know, whatever it is, or a sidebar or this or that, like those are really just to set the shooter up to minimalize movement and kind of balance that bow out correct.
Yep, there's a lot of people that buy them because they look cool. Back in the day, I mean, a stabilizer kind of went to a dampening system. You know, there were a lot of rubber, they weren't really much carbon, They didn't really have much weight adjustability, and it was
more of it. It took vibration out of a bow, and so people, you know, really took to having a stabilizer and then they've transitioned over to more of just a carbon rod and then the ability to add or take off weight to the tip of it, and the bows have gotten so dead in the hand that you know, it's really not a damper and it and it shouldn't be a dampner. It should be something to balance a bow to slow the aim down. But at the end of the day, they're they're most of your hunting bars
are kind of all the same. I mean, there's there's not a lot of physical weight that we're putting on it. So we're not really putting a lot of force on that bar as far as if it's a soft carbon or or a super stiff carbon. So there there's not a whole lot of difference.
So you think you can, you know you can. You know your money can be well spent on a good on a good rest and maybe you know not needed, you know, as far as you know types of stabilizers, maybe even types of site. So let's get into the bow itself, like, is there is there a point where there are bows that will help you shoot better? Or is that really individualized and customized? It's like, you know, brand x y Z may help me shoot better, Brand
x y Z might not help you shoot better? Or are we to a point where technology and advancements are all these these bows are all going to shoot from the four hundred dollars entry level bow up to the you know, two thousand dollars Carbon Deluxe.
Yeah, No, I mean there there is and there isn't you know that to me?
Like some of.
Grips, grip angles, grip position in a bow is important to me, CAM draw cycles is important to me. CAM backwall is important to me, those those are those are the big keys for me. Some of the bows are definitely lighter or different material carbon you know, night I just kind of chuckle when people say, you know, carbon is is warmer to the touch? It is?
Does it matter?
Buy a lot of hand warmers. So, you know, I don't know on that. Uh, I don't feel like you do. Well. I mean there are some bows that that will skimp to safe cost where they start running a little bit more polymer stuff into it, such as you know, maybe a polymer limp pocket or you know, a polymer mods and even that, you know, if I had a choice, I would I would take aluminum over polymer. But I mean, we build guns and stuff out of polymer, so I
think polymer. There's different grades of plastics, so some of it's not terrible. But at the end of the day, is a is a two thousand dollars bow gonna put a bigger elk in front of you than a five hundred dollars bow.
No, yep.
So so I'm gonna boil this down to like an extreme example. So if I took you know, the very first time I had you set up a it was an old Martin omen too, right.
No, haven't been an omen that's a It was aza on yeah yeah.
So yeah, it was a three letter word, four letter word sorry with a So. I brought a Martin ONZA two down to Cory. So if I shot horrible with a Martin on the two, is me?
You know?
Fast forwarding twenty years in technology picking up you know, Darton's newest bow or Matthew's newest bow or Prime's newest bow. Am I gonna instantly shoot better?
Going?
Is technology moved that much within the bows or is it?
Is it like no?
And I know your answer to this is like you should probably just practice with either one of them more.
Well, I mean, we we killed animals with all that old stuff. Is it easier today? Yes? The bows are easier to tune. We have more options to tune, We have more arrows to tune with. We have better broad edge to tune with. Everything has gotten better. String material has gotten better. String material is not constantly moving on those older bows. I mean, man, you were constantly chasing, you know, the tune of that bow because it was
going in and out with timing. The cam systems were pretty much you know, a two cam or a solo cam problem with a solo cam when that string moved the whole knocking point everything shifted. On a two cambo, you know, the timing went out, so you had the cams weren't in sync with each other, so you had you know, bad aeroflight because of that. Today, with string material has gotten much better, bows have gotten much easier,
more letoff, better holding the walls or firmer. So yes, you would shoot better from a new bow today from an old boat. But do you need to spend two thousand dollars versus six seven hundred dollars? I hunted with our mid price pointed bow. I love that bowt It's
a fun bow to shoot. Has our same cam. It doesn't have all the tuning features, but I'm an experienced archer of knowing how to tear a bow apart and put it back together and make a bow, you know, tune out to me, So that part wasn't an issue for me. If I didn't know as much or have access to a good pro shop. You know, a bow that has some tunability features such as a lot of the new bows today, then that's that that's probably good money spent, gotcha?
And then the external component that you know your arrow you talked to hit on a little bit, you know your arrows is you know there's people make seven five three one like, are you know spending twice as much on an one arrow versus an five? Or is does that matter? Or ninety nine percent of us out there not going to be able to see the difference between where a five and a one hits.
Well. I mean a human hair is four thousands, so when we talk in an arrow, that's an O three to and oh one, that's half of the human hair thickness of straightness differences. I don't think that we honestly can shoot that. It is a feel good thing. It is. It's one of those things where I think if you have money and it's not financially hurting you, and it's not financially taken away from tags and and other things in your life, then you know, definitely buy some O ones.
I just went out and shut four white tails with an O five straight arrow. Didn't They didn't die any better or anything less. I don't I don't think. I don't think the majority of us can out shoot it. It is a feel good thing and a lot of times now if you take your time. When you're building an arrow, you know, you might you might end up cutting both ends. You you don't get that choice, you know. And with being a long draw, you're only maybe cutting a half an inch or an inch off of an
arrow shaft. So for you, it probably makes a little bit more sense to get a straighter arrow, because the longer that arrow, the more that does come into play.
You can agree or disagree.
Like we've got our buddy Bill vander Hayden from ironwill On and and you know, he's an engineer like me, but maybe even takes it even more so. He always said, well, straightness is straightness, but once that arrow spins, the arrow doesn't know what's straight anymore. So soon as it leaves the bow and gets stabilized like this.
Well that's that's yeah, that's I'm glad that he says that, because that's the thing we want. When we put an arrow on a spinner, you're putting an object on an object. When an arrow is in the air, it is not touching anything. So when it's spinning, you're it's not it's not like it is when it's on a roller and you're watching movement. So the most important thing if if I had to pick anything on an aerow consistency or a factor would be spine consistency.
Yeah, because that's all going to be affected at the lawn.
Then then I would go then I would probably go straightness, and then I would go grains accuracy on grains. Yeah, I mean when we're talking, these guys talking worrying about you know, one or two grains, and that's usually one or two grains of dust. It doesn't take much for a grain and you're sprinkling that over a twenty eight to or a thirty inch piece of carbon, and even if you put two or three grains in the nose of it, you're probably not even going to notice that.
Yeah, that that was his point, is that.
Yeah, the straightness, the spine consistency, some of that matters on you know, take off. Once an arrow gets stabilized, you're you know, at any given point in time, the unstraight or the crooked side or you know, is it a different point around the area, and it's it's balance, it's self balancing, it's you know, it's like even though it's straight. So his point, you know, and hopefully I'm not getting it wrong.
Well that's why That's why the the initial launch and that's dictated off of the spine consistency, because that's going to determine how much or how little and narrow initially flexes when it launches from that bow. And so the more consistent that is, the more consistent the starting point, the more consistency end result is.
Gotcha?
Okay, so we touched on arrows. You know, we touched on you know, third axis on your sites. Maybe not necessarily, you know, I don't need to be shooting from the top of my roof down to a target that's you know, twenty yards out straight below me, like some of that. You know, if you're in steep mountainous stuff, would you know, if you're in cliffy, you know, if we were back on my goat hunt, would you would third access matter there or not?
Or are you still well?
I mean, if you're shooting a machined aluminum riser and a machine aluminum sit rod, it can't be that far off and it's not going to move the impact of the arrow by inches. It's maybe an inch depending on the distance, but it's not it's not huge. So and even though you do have a bow that is perfectly. Third access level does not mean you shoot the bow level yep. So a level is giving you a guidance, just like a pen is giving you something to point with.
You're giving you something to somewhat get your bow level. And if you can't the bow, it will move the the arrow, impacting you know, an inch or so and so. But that's extreme amounts. So even even having wind or extreme side hill downhill stuff, you may have to overbubble into that thing because the arrow is going to go to that downhill side regardless. So so sometimes that level is just a gauge on on where am I starting and how much am I going to push into that hill or pushed into the way. Yep.
Yeah, And you know talking with you, you know Matt Alwine, you know Matt Schmidt. Guys that I've shot at these hunting challenges with that are you know, way above average shooters. You know, like you can set that on a jig, but like you have to shoot that in, like that's it gets you close, but then you're gonna have to shoot it in the only reason that became a big issue for me is because mine was messed with so
much that it wasn't close to even being accurate. And then I was missing by seven or eight inches downhill the opposite direction uphill on these step long distance shots, and then realized that somebody had messed with it and just got me way out of That's.
The thing with with third axis means that you can adjust.
Which actually screwed me up, versus if it didn't have the adjustability out of be right down the middle.
If they would have just if they just would have machined that thing ninety degrees over, it probably wasn't going to be a huge deal. You know, unless you've got such a turky grip and a turkey bow at full draw that the boat, you know, really torqued in sideways in your hand. Is the third axis going to be off?
Yep, we won't talk about that with me.
Well, we got kind of like bare poles of hands.
Let's get into accuracy and what's required. And we talked about this a little bit before we even fired the podcast up. Is that hunting first target accuracy. I think when we talk about accuracy, it all ends up going back to what target archers would want, right. Everybody wants hit the center of the circle or the blue face target, or you know the.
Ten X and then.
What is really required for hunting accuracy? And when you look at it through that lens, if you were to re ask the question like can you spend money to really make it matter?
Yes or no?
Like I'm just curious, like where should a guy that's only a guy or gal only concerned with hunting, Like how do they find the accuracy that's needed? Or I'm going to make the comment almost all modern equipment, we'll.
Get him there.
And then you can you can either agree with or go your own own direction on that answer.
Yeah, I mean the accuracy. Ye, I mean there's the it's a pretty big kill zone now and there again kind of a a bad topic is is you know, shooting one in the guts, it's still the kill zone. It's it's going to kill him. It's just that's not where we want to be because it's it doesn't gives us a better chance of finding the animal with blood trails and and stuff like that.
It's not as quick for the animal which we're now.
Yeah, but the problem is is that it is death. It is it is you know, it is the kill zone. It's going to kill that animal. So so realistically, the kill zone is big. But yeah, it's not. It's not like target archery. I mean, especially when you look at Vegas and stuff, like what body turner does. I mean he's shooting having to hit you know, a dime every time, you know, and if he just barely misses that dime,
he can go home. Uh, that there's so many good archers in the competition is so tight, you know, where on an animal it's it's not that it's not that tight. But we have other factors that come into play too. I mean, our target moves, you know, our heart rate can change differently, our physical you know, derman can change, you know, whether or not we're exhausted, mentally tired from hiking up hills and not getting any sleep for four
days in the wilderness. You know that different things can come in to play to whether or not we're extremely active.
Yeah, and that's that's where I've always you know, maybe it's just easier to do it, but you know, it used to be a white paper play, you know, the
old school. They were maybe eight inches and and I kind of as if you're in there, especially when I started to stretch out distances, like all right, you know, eighty one hundred, you know, just I would shoot those, not necessarily hunt those, but like, all right, we're keeping good enough accuracy, you know, if we needed a follow up shot you know there, But and then I tightened it up to that six inch and it just it's
the heck's on my target. But I've always just been comfortable if I can hit that, like I'm doing well enough, like I could realistically take a shot from from that distance, and it's just one It's helped me from stand away from target panic being too competitive, like overthinking all of this, but in reality, something I would like to take hunting accuracy, which are not directly related but maybe maybe more connected
than we'd like to believe. And you mentioned this earlier is my ability to like know where the new ten x is on the animal based on the angle, the elevation difference, how I'm what vitals I'm going to hit if the erro goes in there and comes out a different spot is even more important than maybe the accuracy at times like I don't care if you can hit a one in circle at forty yards, if you don't know where to put the arrow at this angle, I'll
take my skill set over your archery skill set any day, which, like I said, they're not directly related, but accuracy, you know what the bow versus like me almost not having to think about it at times where this angle or this arrow in the angle needs to go in is maybe more important for for a hunting you know archer.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean you're you're right. I mean on shot placement, in understanding the anatomy of the animal that you're shooting, you know, and and all those different angles they're and you know there again, there's there's so many factors that come in to play that you know, and none of it is guaranteed. I mean, you know, it's like arrows will take different different directions. Some there are some things that can help minimize, you know, the
exit side of an arrow I think is FOC. I think FOC does help pull an arrow into a target inshouad of getting shoved into the target. Yeah, And so I think that exit side can get better with more FOC penetrations. A whole other thing, I I that is one I guess going back into equipment, that was one thing we didn't touch on. I wouldn't I wouldn't skimp
on broadheads. And when I need skimp on broad heads means buying something off of Amazon or you know, if you're paying you know, fifteen nineteen dollars or something for three or six broad heads.
Yeah, there's just that's not I mean just knowing what we know, you know for manufacturing, Like, there's no way those are heat treated, right, There's no way they were sharpened right, because you just can't do it for that price.
Wait, consistency, straight, consistency, blade consistent, and see all those different things that make every one of them, you know good.
So yeah, not to not to diverge, we're getting ready to close it up, but on the broadhead, like in your opinion, you know, whitetail hunting like is there in all answers as well, So I'm not putting you on an island like you get a lot of the solid non mechanicals versus mechanicals. Oh mechanicals showmb used no white tail elk you should stay. You know, caught in contact is better for penetration or keeping the air on the
anglet wants to go versus an expandable could deflect. Like in your opinion, from what you've seen, you know you've shot a lot of elk shot a lot of deer. Is there any truth any of that or is it? Are you just of the nature? Just shoot what you shoot best, like in a high quality.
Yeah, it's got to be accurate that it's got to be consistent number number one thing, uh sharp, Then you kind of go into the failure rates, I guess of of things. But you also look at wound channels. So and you've killed enough animals too, and you've seen it. Sometimes they bleed, sometimes they don't, and it's not a broadhead issue. I don't believe it's a broadhead issue when an animal doesn't bleed very good. I don't. I don't
blame abroad. It's just it is what it is. You shoot enough of them and you'll see I've shot some really bad shots and it's just like blood's everywhere, and I've shot them with the same type of broadhead in the better spot and they didn't bleed very good. So I don't judge anything off that. And I'm I like expandables, but I don't like expandables, you know. So so if I was shooting white tails one hundred percent, no matter what, I'd probably shoot it. I'd shoot expandable just it's the
biggest womb channel. And I think there's somebody that was did a study that you know, lost animals off of fixed heads versus expandables, and MCA or standard fixed heads lost more animals than expandables. So I think marginal shots, marginal shots can can be improved with a bigger cut, you know.
So yeah, yeah, I've always thought that overanalyzed. Like you know, I'm shooting iron wheels, which has you know, a cut on contact main blade and then small bleeder blades. But like I overanalyzed, like at times, just if that arrow at this certain instance was turned ninety degrees at that point versus exactly that could be the difference on clipping a heart or missing or what I'm even more concerned
about is on like a quartering animal. Well, I love caught on contact, but if my blade is perfectly aligned with like a rib bone, like big blades, versus if it was turned ninety degrees and was going to like point through them and get get you know, get going, like some of.
That's what concerns me.
And I haven't had an issue yet, but the engineer in me is over analyzing that stuff versus well, maybe like an old muzzy tip would already be going in a direction.
The beautiful thing with a fixed head is if you don't go through, you're still cutting, ripping, tearing, and causing trauma inside that animal with maybe even more of expandable broadheads. When they stop moving forward, the blades close back up. If they don't go all the way through, and now you're you're you're really not causing any more damage. You've cut what you cut. And you can say the same thing with shooting through an animal. You've cut what you cut.
If that person just did miss the artery, I mean that you've cut what you cut. So every one of them is different. I mean there's there's not a perfect situation. But for me, if I'm shooting an lope, white tails, mule deer, yeah I'd shoot an expandable heartbeat for me because I'm like you, I call elk. A lot of my elk or coming toward me and so they're either a hard hard at me or I'm shooting them right
up through the front. But like I say, that's typically ten to fifteen twenty yard shot type of thing, and I don't want a big cut trying to get through neck, hide and hair I want to cut on contact head that penetrates.
Yep, yep, No, I'm in agreement on all of that. Well, give us a quick rundown, you know.
I you came out before my white tail hunt brought me that new dart and sequel thirty five st squared?
Did I get that all right?
Yep?
Which was? Which was? Which I like?
And the few features we've alluded to it a little bit like I've tried to become a student of the game, but still don't wrench on my own bow. There were some things that happened, you know, on this boat. Corey can speak to him better than me. But we have some tunable limp pockets, and for timing, we had the ability to twist cables without going into the boat press, which you know. We we got everything set up with with field points found out.
My broad if you remember, was my broad head was hitting to the left? Correct?
Yes, I think, yeah, So we had broadheads were dialed or no field points were dialed. Broadheads were shooting two or three inches to the left. After we got everything set up, and rather than put it back in the press or make an adjust to the site or do anything else, we were literally got an Alan wrench out. I think it was one twist on on you know, the adjustable limp pocket, and we brought the arrows together
and we're done. Which for me not having to run back to a bow shop or not have to like make little micro adjust to my rest and hope that I don't screw this up completely. It was awesome getting ready for a hunt, you know, to be able to do that. And that was the problem I used to run run into all the time before you know, I run down Corey. It something my bow up. And then like everybody is screwed the broadheads on ten days before season, You're like, uh no, like you have to redo all
of this. And so I'll let Corey speak to some of this technology and and uh you know some of the things that dart and are doing. And then kind of you know, some of these advance advancements that maybe aren't all going into efficiency but you know, the efficiency of the bow, but and the fuel of the bow, but really going into the tunability of the bow seems to be the biggest advancements you know coming out.
Yeah, so the tunability on the new bow and stuff. You know, when we tune a bow or you tune a bow at the shop. Definitely, shooting through paper is a snapshot of it, but it's not the telltale sign. Especially when we start putting veins in the front with a broadhead, so things can show up a little bit more with with that. And so having the ability to tweak some stuff at the range instead of having to drive back to a shop and put a bow in a press and or moving the rest like you say, uh,
it's it's nice features. So we came out with a new tiny system that is in our yokes and it's a it's a turn buckle, so it just it just turns. It just puts or takes out twist of the cable so it doesn't doesn't get any longer or shorter. So it's not on a thread system, so we're not pulling something different. We're actually just putting the twist and we can micro do that on the timing. So that's really cool.
And and so then when we go into the what everybody's calling the limb pocket, it's not necessarily like tuning the limb pocket on on what we're doing. Other companies will actually move a pocket. What we're doing is keeping the pocket square and in this position, but we're actually
changing deflection numbers of a of a limb. So we've got a little plug that we can put in the left or the right limb and basically add right around anywhere from you know, a half a pound to to two and a half pounds to that limb, which makes that limb stronger the other limb slightly weaker, and we
can flip flop that. So the cool thing on that is that it keeps the limb pocket square and then on the cam side of it, we're actually not moving the cam left and right, because if you move the cam left and right, then you're technically not shoving the back of the arrow from the back of the arrow again, so we keep everything square into the bow and just do it off of limb deflections, which is pretty pretty slick.
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was slick.
And then I don't know, I was shooting here and showed up in Kansas, so I give Corey a quick call and once again over the phone, you know, just making sure it's going in the right direction. I could have just twisted and checked, but you know, I was
able to make in another adjustment. Why we were in Kansas and kind of you know, quote unquote retune the bow versus if I couldn't have, you know, had the tools or the ability to fix some of this stuff on the fly, I wouldn't have been very confident as I was sitting in a tree, but you know, made a few adjustments, shot back out to forty yards and everything was flying perfect. So you know, once again, just a testament to to making stuff easy.
For a dummy like me that wouldn't have been able to fix that on my own.
So how big a deer did you shoot?
I haven't scored it yet. He's a Uh.
When I'm in Kansas, we call him ten pointers around here. I think they'd be called like a five by five or four point with I guards. So I killed a good ten pointer, probably that mid fifties five ish. Yes, Yeah, it's uh, we're we're spoiled back there, but uh, you know, killed killed him on the very first sit an hour into it, and then uh went on dough patrol after that, and then decided I was tired of cutting up dose. So then I don't if Randy listen this, he's gonna
be mad. But I was like trying to shoo him away later on in the week, like just no, not really. You know, there's lots of chores to do on a on a big form like that, so we tried to help around in Montana.
We also have hunter Hunters for the hungry. So yeah, but yeah, I shot four dos and like you say, it's a lot of work after it's fun and all of a sudden you're like, oh, man, I got a lot of a lot of work ahead of me.
Yeah, yeah, no, it was it was good. Any other thing, anything else you new from Black You anything else you want to talk about or yeah.
So we should be I don't know when this is going to launch, but I think right around December tenth, actually probably tomorrow. We should be getting in our all our new graphics. We've got new veins that we're putting on the arrows for freck Factory fletch. That will be a two point five fusion X vein to have a two inch vein, and we're spine indexing all the arrows, the shafts all we'll have a laser index for the stiff side of the arrow. New graphics, and then just
the course. You know, the one thing that Black Eagles is known for is the super sortied where our spine consistency is so consistent across the board on the arrows. So yeah, other than that, it's pretty much the same, same good stuff, and it's going to be.
A good year. No, I really appreciate you know.
It's always good to catch up, even though now I get to see it for half a day while we're rushing to set a bow up, But always good to catch up with you. And I just always liked your perspective on you know, on on shooting and becoming better and maybe you know, what the internet tells us we
should be doing versus what the reality. You know, we should just be practicing more or working on certain things and not just buying the newest and latest and greatest, and it's not going to make you become a better shoot.
Yeah, practice with a purpose, you know, figure out what you're going to practice today. Why that's your grip angle, your anchor point? Is it my aiming? Do practice aiming drills? Do? You know? The biggest key? I think The other thing that I get frustrated with is watching people who are struggling with target panic and everybody tells them to buy a back tension release. Back tension is a form of
a shot. It doesn't matter if you do it with your bogger finger or you turn your hand upside down, but you're still using your back to keep strong into the shot and activate the trigger, whether not be an index trigger like I say, or a button. But these guys will go out and buy an expensive button and then not learn how to properly shoot it, and their their problems of punching the trigger is still there. They just turned their hand upside down and they're three hundred
dollars more in debt. Yeap, So if you're gonna buy a good release, find somebody to help you learn how to shoot that release properly.
I like it. I like it.
Well we'll end on that. Thanks for coming along, Corey. Enjoy your your snowy winter in uh Montana, and I'll enjoy our wet winter here in Washington.
Hey, id you saw that big buck that walked by a way I did.
That's not That's not a bad site. I've got a couple.
Hey, I got a couple of those in my yard eating under the apple trees. So it's almost the same.
Yeah, almost.
All right, take care of buddy. Wet's see you think? But can fo