Ep. 114: Unpacking the Trophy vs. Meat Hunting Controversy

I know it was specifically put in the Colorado bill that just thankfully got you know, shot down by the voters, you know, trophy hunting, and it's in my opinion, it's used to romanticize and pull the heartstrings of the voters and then some of what I would call like the over the top, crazy, protect animal at all costs types of people. So welcome to the show, Derek.

I like to see both sides, right, you know. From when it's a newspaper, you're gonna get the hunters and the anna hunters. So I mean, not being able to help myself, I click on the comment section just because I like a good you know, some mudslinging and like to see that. I like to see the pigs wrestle in the mud a little bit. And and I kind of seen how some of the hunters responded, you know, back and forth, and why the other side, you know,

the trophy hunting, the protect trophy hunting. Trophy hunting is bad type people. They they're completely wrong. They do a better job at talking at time versus you know, the majority of hunters are just like, trophy hunting is good. I'll shoot what I want and I'll shoot as much as I want. Now my list isn't good messaging either, So I'm like, uh, let's throw it on the podcast. And I've always had a lot of thoughts and confusion and h just what is trophy hunting? You know, I

think that's where you have to kind of start. If we're going to throw a word out there, we should all be able to understand, you know, what it means. So in your opinion, what would you or how would you define what is trophy hunting?

lot like that. If it's coming from an anti hunting perspective, Trophy hunting is basically you're killing an animal for its

antlers or skull, hide, whatever whatever its attributes are. You're killing it for that physical attribute and discarding anything else about, you know, with the animal, which from a hunting perspective, that's not necessarily accurate because a lot of people will say trophy hunting is you know, they're they are looking for the largest biggest measuring animal they can find for

their tag. But they're not they're not wasting meat, you know, they're not just shooting an animal and leaving you know, taking you know, taking the antlers or the hide or the head and just leaving it to waste. That's not that's that's actually poaching, you know, because you know that's that's illegal. So so as hunters, you know, you know, we're going to shoot a big elk, for instance, the big like a trophy a trophy hunt or a trophy hunter.

You're try to shoot the biggest one you can get because it's probably a limited opportunity, maybe almost a once in a lifetime chance for you to kill a really mature, big antlered elk. But you're going to take that meat home too, or share it with friends, but the meat will be harvested as well. Now you're going to put that that set of antlers on your wall, whether you put on a shoulder mount or a European mount. And

you know, the anti hunters feel that's disgusting. They don't understand though, that we're at that point you're honoring that animal, right you're putting it on the wall. I mean that that animal's life will be remembered for as long as those antlers are in existence. Right that that animal's life is honored. It's the hunt was honored. You know, everything about it is honored. Whereas they don't see it that way.

They don't have that understanding of it. I guess they just look at as a like a prize or a trophy, like like a trophy that you would win at a you know, race or or something.

he's proud? You know? So it's like, how do you you know, defining it by by antlers on the wall. It's like similar to you, I, you know, we have a lot of family gatherings at my house. We you know, we built my house to do that. Sort of thing. And I've got quite a few animals on the wall, but those more than the trophy. Yeah, it's an higher call,

you know, higher caliber type animal. You know that that we but there's not a single uncle or dad or somebody involved in that hunt that doesn't come in my house and we can sit and tell a thirty minute story about that and how cold it was or how hot it was, or who ran out of water, who forgot their lunch, you know which one of my overweight uncles ran out of food and had to beg for somebody.

and everything. So it's it's very hard to describe, and I've always struggled with especially when you let so let's go back to trophy hunting versus meat hunting, and not to get overly scientific, they both obviously have the word hunting in it, but then it's like you go and treat trophy hunting like it's some separate thing you know out in the woods or out in the mountains or

out in the tree stand. Like if your trophy hunting, you're doing something different than the meat hunter, right, which I've always struggled like how do you make that connection? Because I'm doing the same regardless of I'm doing the same thing, and and so it's not like this separate thing. When you hear somebody say, oh, they're going trophy hunting or they are trophy hunting, It's like, no, it's the

same damn thing as the meat hunter. I just upset a different a different Like I've moved the bar, right, I've moved the bar to a different level. And we're gonna get into it, like a lot of times for me if you want to lay, you know, we're gonna be labeled a trophy hunter versus a non It's like what tag do I have? What what is available on this hunt? Like what's the odds of killing something better or bigger? Or is it a unit that's managed for

certain things. So I've always struggled with like, it's not a separate thing. It's the same dang thing. You know, it's you're hunting, it's just whether you've put a certain a certain limitation on what you're willing to not your tag on. And so I've struggled with that, you know,

a lot, and then you alluded to it. You know, there's this idea that you know, and this is I think this is what the anti hunts, the animal lovers whatever we're going to refer to them as, Like, this is the picture that they want to paint, is the idea that trophy hunters go out there, they're there for nothing but the horns, and then they basically walk away from the meat. Right, Like you know, we've talked about that.

It's I don't know anybody that considers themselves a hunter or somebody that I would consider a hunter, that would ever do that, even if you want to consider yourself a trophy hunter. That and this is where I get a little little on the fence about it is, you know, and then you get the word thrill killer out there, like are you just hunting for strictly the sport? Like you just want to challenge to kill an animal that's got you know, these senses and eyesight and all this

stuff to challenge you, and then you donate the meat. Right, So you're out there, You're not gonna eat any of it, you don't want to deal with it. But even then I would question, like, is there a more charitable act than that? Like that person went out there, spent their own money, use their own resources, and then most of the time they donate to a food bank, people and more needs. So it's like, is there a more charitable selfless act than feeding someone else with your own money?

And so I can't really shy at that either.

just making a monetary donation. I mean that's a good feeling, sure, but the effort that took for that donation is I mean you had to earn the money, Yeah, of course, but to go on a trophy hunt, let's say you don't want to eat the meat, or don't like wild game, or can't transport it whatever, you had to like earn the money. You had to acquire the license tag, then you had to show up and then do all the work. And let's face it, sometimes these trophy hunting units as

some call them, it's not an easy hunt. You still have to show up and hunt hard, and it's physically demanding. You have to you have to break the animal down, keep the meat clean, keep it sanitary, remove it from the field, have it packaged, process and then put it to take it to the food bank. I mean, I don't know any of that. That's way harder than just giving a charitable, charitable donation to the food bank. From a non hunting.

My intention is not to put down meat hunters at all, because anybody that knows my background, you know, my my upbringing, we never passed a legal ball. We would sometimes, you know, growing up, we'd let some smaller bucks go depending on what the meat situation was, how much meat we had left over from last year, what the cooler was looking like. So in no way, but I would say every time meat hunting is easier, right, meat hunting is always going

to be easier. It's always going to be easier than trophy hunting, and so so from a conservation and I'm not trying to sit on a high horse here by no means, but by me being and I wouldn't consider myself a trophyuntner. I'm just a guy that's out there wanting to find something above average. We'll say that by doing that, I'm actually helping out on the conservation side, right, Like I'm I'm letting a younger animal, you know, live another day. I'm letting that animal grow up to be

a little bit older. I'm helping keep the numbers up for the chance that I may not kill something by the end of that hunt. And so you know, so when it comes to this conservation side, it's like, all right, I feel that trophy hunting or is better for for for the animals on the landscape. It's it's going to give you more more numbers. It's you know, you you give them a chance to get a little bit older and a little bit smarter, which I think helps it.

You know, these anybody that toned for very long. You know, your your does and fawns always feel the safest. Your small bucks, you know, sometimes feel more safe than that. I guess as well. But you know, those animals are the low hanging fruit and and uh yeah, there's that argument as well that, uh, you know, by not being a meat hunter, you're actually helping keep more animals on the ground as well.

You know, he only shot one antlered animal my entire life. You know, when he was a young man. I think he shot some, but most of his life he shot you know, cow's cow, elk and doe deer. But I loved to hunt. I hunted. I wanted to hunt every single day. I didn't play sports. I wanted to hunt every single day. I'd go out before school, I'd go out after school. So if I tagged out on the first nice dough, I saw my season was going to

be over. So selfishly, I wanted to hunt more. So I'm like, I want to hold out for a big buck. This is when I first started hunting deer. I didn't have I didn't hunt helk yet, and I just wanted to shoot a really big buck. And I'm mature deer because I wanted to keep hunting, right, so I was. So I started passing little bucks, started passing doughs and stuff until I could kill a big buck. And it made my season longer. And just for the love of

being out there. You know, I loved being outdoors. I love I loved seeing lots of animals, I loved I loved everything about it. And then you know, with the possibility of like maybe getting a big one, and there was lots of little ones, that got away and some big ones that got away too, because you're like someone picking up Oh he's gone yep. So I don't see it. I don't see a problem with it.

a regulated system where there's permits and fees. Those funds are then used to support the wages, you know, the biologists, the legislative people, the concert you know, that money goes the conservation initiatives, you know, your anti poaching efforts, you know, even local communities trophy hunting or what. And throughout this, throughout this podcast, I'm gonna use trophy hunting just so we can stay on topic. I don't necessarily consider it trophy hunting, but for you know, the keep us on.

So trophy hunting, you know, you go to some of these places in rule New Mexico, trophy hunting and the good units that funds an entire community that funds most of our fishing game agencies. You know, I always me and Dirk argue all the time about non residence funding Idaho's fishing game. But if there wasn't a potential for me to draw a good tag, there are years I

wouldn't buy one hundred and fifty dollars license. So then I could put my whatever it is, twelve fifteen dollars absent, right, So that one hundred and seventy dollars, whether it's a donation or not, I've drawn one take there. But you give them that money, and that is what runs that states. You know, whether it's winter feed. I don't even know if you guys want her feed. I'm just going through things in other states that do that sort of stuff.

So that funding for conservation is and I believe I heard Clay newcom our good buddy Clay, who has a great podcast over there at Bear Grease, when he was on the Rogan podcast. Rogan brought up the topic of trophy hunting, and I Clay did a great job on this topic. Trophy hunting, the idea of trophy hunting is

maybe what saved our big game herds. Anyways, right, because and the same thing that saved African game animals, it finally put a value on them, which then detoured the poachers because the people that put value on them now protected those animals, right, And so without that protection of being labeled a trophy animal or the animal itself now having some intrinsic value more than the meat, actually help save the popular you know, help in in in a way,

save that population. So there's funding in conservation. But then that funding or the value that we put on bait. You know, if you can imagine a deer walking around with a five hundred dollars bill, you know, above their head, like on the cartoons or on video games, like that deer has value now because of what's the potential that's on his head. Whether that's right or wrong or maybe that's where you know, meat hunters can say, like, but it shouldn't have a value like that because of what's

on its head. But I would I would love to debate them or challenge them. Would that deer exist in that place? If we just let meat hunters go and you know, go gather all the meat they want, there wouldn't be a whole lot left, right, We wouldn't have anything to hunt, So there's got to be some sort of management, which, in a round about way, I'm getting back to the funding. Because the trophy animals and the value that these these critters.

where it's managed very well. And I have to I'm not a very experienced whitetail hunter. I'm three years in. But I let's go to like the Midwest where I would say you're able to manage a a tight knit population very very well. Right, They've shown through years and years of doing this that it aids in the health

of your herd. You've got better animals on the landscape, you've got and so by shooting these these younger animals and then you've got older animals die off well, by shooting the older animal that would die off within a couple of years, you give the a chance for that younger buck to escape into all of these things. And I think out west, like we should just be able to translate, you you know, transpose and move that out here. Now.

I know there's other factors. You know, we've got more predators, we've gotten more of this or that, But I feel like the trophy hunting mindset, killing that older, you know, animal that's rutted hard, it's more susceptive to dying off on a bad winter. It's going to help manage populations, which gives people more opportunity, more tags, longer seasons, all of the things that we all love, whether you're a meat hunter or or a trophy hunter. Oh.

very limited access and they have giant elk and huge olcrds everywhere. It's if they just let people go shoot those indiscriminately, like okay, here's your general tag, go ahead, those herds would not be what they are. I mean, there's no argument about it, because you can reference other areas where they do have a general over the cat over the countertype tag and the herds are not as flourishing. There's just not as many elk or deer on the landscape.

good balance of opportunity versus like trophy. So I think, you know, there's there's over the county units where you're gonna go, you know, ride the struggle bus and you're gonna have a ten percent chance, and then there's gonna be units where you have a forty percent chance of success and have a chance at a giant bowl. So the one thing in this big and I don't I don't envy their position at all because they're trying to balance, you know, the extreme meat hunter to the extreme trophy

hunter and everybody in between. You everybody wants something different, everybody hunts with a different weapon. But yeah, it's they there. There's drastic differences on the landscape when a unit's managed for trophy potential and trophy quality versus opportunity, you know,

a meat hunter's opportunity. And I would maybe, I don't know, I didn't think very much about this argument, but I'd almost make the argument that more meat is harvested from these trophy units with a lot less tags, and more meats harvested from these meat eater units, you know, or meat hunter units that are over the counter, wide open to everybody. I didn't do any fact checking on that, but just my understanding and just you know what we see,

like all right, percentages are way higher. Yeah, there's less tags, but you know, when you add success and it might be close to If we're truly talking about meat ending up in somebody's freezer, trophy units might do just as good a job.

I don't want to do. You know, Switzerland, when it comes to stuff, I just want to be in the middle. I want everybody to do what they want to do as long as it's legal. So I'll put that out there, But don't make the meat hunter argument when you drove across the state with gas prices where they are to shoot a one and a half year old deer and tell me that you don't care because you're a meat hunter. Now, there's an argument to be made that is wild organic meat.

And but I've been there, I've I've cut open, I've skinned, I've cut up a lot of deer and elk and it's drastic. You know, you're getting half the deer if that on, or you're getting half the elk on a spike bowl versus six and a half or seven and a half year old bowl. Maybe less maybe less meat, And so.

I need the meat I need the meat. I'm like, oh, you guys make like steaks and burger and roasts out of it. No, no pepperoni and jerk. And I'm like, dude, that's snacks. You're making freaking snacks. That's don't don't bullshit me.

Everybody wants a perfect four point, right, Yeah, they will shoot a two and a half year old perfect four point that scores one hundred and ten inches before they'll shoot the seven and a half year old buck that's a two by three or a crab claw buck right right. And so this idea of trophy hunting without people maybe fully understanding. Once again, do whatever you want if it's

legal and you got your own tag. But I feel like sometimes we're chasing the wrong trophy at times, Like if somebody pulls out a big, old, gnarly eight and a half year old buck that has no forks and you know, there's a big slick to you know, whatever it may be, I feel like at times that's better for the herd than us taking out you know, these young four points, you know, same thing we just got back from Kansas. I don't want to go, you know,

go back into that. But there's times where maybe you're chasing an inches number and you got bucks running by that, are you know, bucks that are way older than that, way smarter than that, more meat than that, Like should you take those out? And so I do think that trophy hunting has hurt us, or hurt some people, or some might not. Some people have have skewed some people's perception of what the trophy or the challenge really is.

Like killing that two and a half year old perfect four point was not tougher than killing one hundred and twenty inch seven and a half year old buck that doesn't have any forks.

big slick two point that's legal in your area. That's you know, a bowlie buck and running all your good you know, your good breeder bucks off and I even have to back up, like that's assuming you care about the future of the genetics. And maybe I'm completely off base and this is like unbiological, you know, this isn't like bi biologically founded. Like maybe it doesn't matter because

it was carried fifty percent as well. But I think in our heads were like we want the bucks with good forks, and we want the bucks with long times. We want the bucks and bulls with good masks to carry on and spread their jeans where maybe it doesn't work that way. But that's one thing like as I've got older and and paid more attention, like, let's just kill the older, more mature deer than chasing a few more inches on a deer that's half its age or buck or bowl.

almost gone. And some of the youngest deer, you know, we're we're had bigger antlers, you know, so it was it was interesting to see that, you know, you you you judging you know, an animal a trophy animal by antler size only it can be kind of kind of deceiving and it you got to kind of look at everything we we we face this in Kansas when we go whitetail, honey, you know, it's it's like, wow, that's a great ten point, you know, a five by five,

But look he's kind of narrow in the withers. His his chest isn't as deep, he doesn't have a giant brisket, his neck isn't huge, he's not sway back. You start looking at all these other factors, like, let's not shoot that one. Let's let him live and wait till, wait, till he lives to his potential because he's not quite old enough. He's just not old deer, even though he's got a beautiful rack yep.

so you can see their potential. And and I love Kansas because a lot of times out West, and maybe it's my own fault for getting in a hurry and not looking at them through the spotter, you know long enough. But you know, you're, like you said, you're evaluating how old is that dear, how big is its head? How big? You know, if you take the horns out of the picture and you're just looking at a body, but you know it's a buck, Like how big is he? You know,

barrel chested? You know, sway in his back? And maybe I should do more of that out west. You know a lot of times if you look at their face long and if you can just tell how old that buck is or his head, and you start to look at those things, and that's a back to my you know that The original point is I think we should manage more on age, class or or a potential. Like we've seen the potential of this animal. Now let's you know, kill it at that point, you know, whether regardless of

what it has up there. I know it's tough. I'm a hypocrite because I don't necessarily follow through with that. I just think, you know, I know it would be probably a better way to manage the herd for health and all of that.

show examples of the worst scenario. Some rich fat cat went and paid a bunch of money and and shot this animal for its for its antlers or its rhinoceros horn or whatever it is. You know, you know, just trying to make it look as bad, make the optics

as bad as possible. And then they go ahead and you know, we'll just go ahead and leave out all these other details that that I know that that that guy paid a whole bunch of money, just kept that whole local community of people alive for the next year, and kept a whole bunch of other rhinos alive for tomorrow as well. You know, they just don't paint the picture that like what all that everything that's considered into hunting, trophy hunting what it does. So it's just mud slinging, you know.

have made it through winners. Everybody's eight bear, cougar, der, elk, sheep, buffalo, beef, whatever it has been to be at the point there their life. Somewhere in their lineage. I'm gonna I'm gonna guess I'm sure somebody could show some examples. But what Disney and and other cartoon makers and book writers have did is they've romanticized these same critters into their their books. You know, their their kid books, and you know their stories.

You know, you got you've got movies made about you know, pet bears or bears that save people, and you got movies that are and then all of a sudden, so they use that against us and then they go after Hey, we're gonna go after bears and cat hunters first, right, if you like to hunt cougars, if you like to hunt bears, if you're one of those really really bad hunters need to use dog to kill those, Like, we're really gonna go out for you, because that's number one. You hate your own pack.

cute little critters. We're gonna put them in these books and put them in movies, and then we're gonna go get rid of those first, right, or I mean, we can even take it to the extent of Bambi like that thing did Hunter is the biggest disservice in the world, right, because there's a family a deer, and and in that movie the family and the mom and the dad gets separated and whatever it is that you know where I'm

going with it. But then they they take that and then use the word trophy hunting and then try to take some of that away from us.

to like feed you and keep you alive. So it's like you can depict this as as drunken buffoons and idiots that can't but most hunters I've met are pretty damn handy. They can take care of themselves. And but it's it's one of those you know the criticism of trophy huntings that were out there, you know Spring Bear in Washington, like, Oh, these guys suck so bad at bear hunting in the fall that they've got to go

kill these lethargic bears when they get out of the den. Yeah, well that's that doesn't help us, like they but but it's not founded in science, Like, oh, a new study just came out the bears are more active as soon as they come out of the den to like quickly replenish their calorie deficite. You're like, well that, you know, but they throw a trophy on in they throw false information and it's a it's a campaign and it seems to be more out West. They just leave the white

tails and stuff alone. But it's like out West, you know, these these predators, these alpha predators, whether it's you know, wolves or if you're a wolf hun or your trophy hunter, because you're not gonna eat the meat right like, or I'm trying to balance wildlife since they're out of balance, or you're, you know, a bear hunter, and so like perception, I feel like as a trophy hunter, and it's not

even really trophy hunting. They're just they're using that wording to target things that they don't want to see us do, and they're just they're trying to pick the easiest one to get because of those voters or because of those lawmakers that will side with them because they're cute and cuddly, yeah, which has got lumped into trophy on. Yeah.

demonize hunting in general. And I think, you know, like what we saw here in Colorado with the whole trying to get rid of mountain lion hunting there, it didn't pass, and I almost think it might have backfired a little bit because so much information got put out into the world about what mountain lion hunting and management is all about, and might have enlightened a lot of new people that like, oh I didn't know about that, you know, maybe they'd even vote vote on it, maybe, you know, but they

like they got a different perspective. So I think if anything good came out of that, then I think just more information out there in the world from another side instead of that one sided media.

you'll never see that, you know, on their narrative. They'll just like, oh, this guy paid three hundred thousand dollars to shoot Cecial the lion.

the freezer. I just like it's just baffling to me, and it's it's the most quick reduction, Like a lot of times things are more complex or nuanced, like all right, there's a lot of you know, stuff to navigate here. I'm like, no, it's literally me doing the exact same thing. I just pulled the trigger on something a little different that that you know has a higher probability that something lives.

Like you should hate meat hunting more than trophy hunting if you had to, if you had to pick something, like you should you know, anti hunters should hate meat hunting way more than they hate trophy hunting.

something that's legal very quickly. Right, I've got to be dialed in, like where's the most mature animal in the mountain gonna live? Or like where's a nook and cranny, Like it's sometimes a harder place to get to, not always, but like I'm having to think more versus so in my opinion, that's bilding a deeper appreciation for the wildlife and what it takes to get to that age and maturity.

And they've got an ability to think different. So I don't understand how a meat hunter, you know, the argument, Oh they're they're really connected to nature, or they've got a more appreciation for the wildlife they're hunting. Like, No, I don't buy it. Like it can be equivalent but not more.

our food. They're poisoning us with all this stuff. That's a completely different rabbit hole. But I think a lot of people are awakening to the fact that like the stuff you buy it at the store isn't maybe necessarily that healthy. So wild meat, wild game is a lot healthier for you. And the conditions at livestock are held in you know, feed yards, all these different places. It's not the it's not a pretty picture. It's not a

it's not a great picture. Whereas a deer or elk, they lived a beautiful free life their whole life, and finally one day a hunter took their life, put them down humanly. They didn't get eaten to death while they're eaten alive by coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, whatever. They didn't get killed in a brutal fashion by nature per se. They're taken down by a hunter. But as humans, we are part of nature. We've been part of nature since

the dawn of time. So to take to say that it's not natural for a hunter to kill an animal is hogwash. It's preposterous. You know, we've been here since the animals have been here, yep, And so it is natural. It is a natural thing for us to kill, to kill an animal. But back to your point, Yeah, it's just easier to demonize, you know it. You can make trophy hunting look bad and and poo poo on that way easier than you can just someone sustin it's hunting.

wrap this thing up. It was just kind of a conversation on trophy hunting in our own opinions, but we just need to do a better job as hunting, you know, as hunters as a collective group, explaining why we do what we do. And back to my opinion, and it's the easy way out, But as long as the biologists agree that there should be tags. You've got to tag for that unit and the animal that you shoots legal

and you're not wasting anything. Like who am I to say what you should be doing while you're out there. If you want to shoot a spike that's a you know, a year and a half old or a the button buck, because that's what you want to do, or you need to meet by all means do it. If you want to go out there and never shoot, you know, you you could have killed hundreds of animals and you shoot one every ten years because you only want the biggest

thing ever to put on your wall. As long as you're taking the meat home, by all means, do it. But I I always kind of joke these meat hunters. I would love to be there with a meat hunter and set a big old, you know, four point a giant four point buck alongside of a spike and see which one they shoot. And I would even take it as far as put a giant four point buck next to a spike bowl, maybe a little more meat on the spike bowl, and we'll see which one they shoot.

We're all meat hunters, quote unquote meat hunters until something BIG's around I think there's a very few, very few guys that they are gals or hunters in general. They were like, yeah, I'll take the less the less mature, or the less impressive animal. You can talk a big game until you're in the situation that everybody turns into a trophy hunter.

It's stakes, you know, the hair, the fur stinks or whatever.

I mean I would kill for one of those. And I was, you know, when I was a kid. You know, somebody about me bugle tube.

Whatever it is, just go out and hunt because you love it. Whether it's family and friends, whether it's telling stories, whether it's drinks around the campfire, whether it's whatever it is, go out there and do it as long as it's legal, and don't worry about what anybody else, you know, questions you're reasoning for doing it.

There're no convincing them that hunting is good. But people who who are watching silently, quietly, who are on the fence, who don't hunt, And if you paint a really nice picture, it's like, yeah, I like that. You know, camaraderie, family friends, you know, found a you know, you know, want to spend a full season hunting, trying to find a mature animal, not just to kill and discriminately whatever. I mean, if you can paint a great picture, it just leaves a

better taste in people's mouth. It just does.

you want to share it. Like some stuff, there's just stuff I'm not proud of that happens, like life or death out there. It's real. It affects me, like just we don't.

and I feel like, you know, just have a little decency. Hello, respect for the animal, have a respect for the people who Let's just say, you know, I've spent a lifetime hunting and I grew up in a household with a different mindset versus people who've never been hunting, and if they see something that's like maybe commonplace, like a gratuitous headshot of an animal or or something else, that is beyond disturbing for them because they're not used to seeing

an animal die, they're not used to seeing someone take a life, and what might be kind of commonplace or like desensitized us because we've been there, done that, whatever, It doesn't mean we should maybe share it with the world. Those those I've and I've seen some and I've been around. I've been around, I've shot a lot of animals, and I've seen some videos where people like, you know, like some gratuitous headshot of an animal. It's disgusting. I don't want.

I don't want to see that. I don't. I don't. I can guarantee nobody else wants to see that. It's it ain't cool.

and ethical, like just just leave it off there. I know we're going down a different rabbit hole, but God, I think sometimes we're our worst, our own worst enemies, like clean ethical, you know, limit it to the the I don't even I'm to the point maybe I'm getting softer. Like I was watching something I was sick the other day and I was watching a lot of white til

hunting on TV. Some people edit out. They'll show you the shot, and then they'll like show you the animal dead across the field, and then some people show you like the deer running all over spinning or like staggering for minutes with blood. I'm like, I don't want to see that either.