Charles Oakley

He's a back pattern or congratulator, or he definitely is not introducing any participation trophies. Somebody even call him a bully, but us old school, we call him the Enforcer. And it's funny. His book it's called The Enforcers Enforcer A. K. Oaktree, a K A Mr No nonsense guy. Please welcome to

the Cut to A podcast, Charles Oakley. Yeah, I say bully because according to the new standard with participation trophy type, the millennials, Um, you know, sometimes when you don't say the nice things to the right ears, they don't receive it. Well right, Well, I'm the station I mean is it is? It means that these days you don't see uh the old schools, uh, the working the hall. They had to put in the mag a song and you got everything in front of you, the make a song and they

give me a pass. It's no hard work nor moment. So it's just I know it's a different style, right listen that. But you know, if you look back into how it started back in the early seventies up to probably two thousand, you know how they had to the manifold, the hooks, the rhyme, the style and create creativity to make a song. It's not their normal. Well let's let's jump right into it, um man. I I got some

intail early this morning. Um so that made me kind of switch up a little bit of my icebreaker questions about you. When's the last time someone bawled money from from you? I mean that's every every um every other month. Yeah, So did they say they're gonna pay it back? Are you looking for them to pay it back? There's different types of letting money these days. Some people you didn't until you don't. You know, you can just chalk it up.

Some people, you know incredibilities. Some people don't, uh, just you know, you don't worry about serame things. But when someone got the money and don't pay you, it's a different story. Sometimes some people trying to use the money to get funding, better themself or get something started. I understand that you gotta know that expectation going into it. Yea. So if you were going to sail around the world, what's the name of your boat? All right? This last one?

Are you a morning person or a night person? Oh? Man, I'm twenty four hours m m okay life all right. Oh, it's a privilege and honor to talk to you. One. I'm old school. I was. I'm a old school type of guy. Show a guy like you being able to talk to you. Uh, it's pretty cool. It's really pretty cool for me. He's a conversation. Then you old school? Yeah, I'm old school. Like we don't like if we're going to Alabama, we don't seven to five, seven to one.

We should put on a cruising from those about SI five seven and it's right al out. I like it. But if it's two brothers in Alabama, we're gonna get pulled over. I'll tell you, I'll tell you story about Alabama. I'll trought about eight nine years old. My brother was We were coming back Frown and then went to a service down there and it's like three cars and it wasn't like the cops got that got us from a plane. The tractors the speed from a plane and shut it down.

They do that there a lot of Tennessee and that's how we got pulled over. But you know, they get all the tricks in the book. I mean they get to hide to get you this, and then you got likes to get the police. So I don't know, it's it's it's always something dirty going on, but it's like we live in we gotta get through it and hopefully that don't happen to one of us in a bad way. Hey,

So I love this one. I like to ask people, especially old school guy like you, so you'll know, man, where are you from in the place you call your hometown? Born and raised in Cleveland? Oh wow, that's why I called. You know, they called the land Lebron changed the name and I'm sitting up part of that when I'm from Cleveland. But you know, I'm a family visioned from the South York, Alabama. So I've been back and forth all my life. And U went to school in Virginia, Union Rich in Virginia.

So I've been in the South a live in the North a lot. So like I said, I'm I'm going out of North and South. How do you balance being from originally your roots and your family being from the South, living on you know, being raised in Ohio. However, you know you are known for being the standard of a New York Nick and being in New York wears fast pace.

Southern hospitality does not exist. You. You know, I've been in New York and several times with work, and I live in North Carolina now, and so I've I've adapted the Southern hospitality. And you know, you opened the door not just for a woman, but also for the elderly, right, and I've opened the door for the elderly. And they clutch they clutched their purse a little bit like you know, what what is he up to? How did you? How did you balance your roots Ohio, Alabama and New York?

Balancing that? Well? I guess um, we can we can see at the triangle that some of the Knicks players could never learn. But from cleaning around New York basically all different Cleveland's you know more, Alabama South and New York is America. Whatever you wanted to be. Uh. In New York is you know, it's a fast place. Cleveland is in the middle of Alabama, a little slow, so small medium in large place. So basically all of them helped me in a way of my life was going.

My grandfather and aunts and uncles in the South, and Cleveland will still have something doing. In New York the light is bright. But I'm ready for the challenge. So it helped me. I was ready for the moment anyway. It was when you when you built a certain way, and you you take your followers the steps to get and you listen to everyone coming up, and the installed all this into your mind, your brain, and you still stay in your place. Then where you go, you stay

in your place. And then we try to, you know, shine and just sit back and relax and let it happen. And that's what I did. Uh when New York, I never tried to be all I gotta do all this, do all that, do what you can do. If you can't do it, you can't do it. So you talked about building. So what kind of kid was Charles Opley?

I was a good kid. Uh, he said. My thing was I was told at early age when some mind said your name, don't don't say what start coming the time they you know, got something else to said you right there. And I know a lot of kids the day you gotta say they name three and full time,

they wouldn't have work when I was going up. So basically I was more of like I always following order, detail and like I said, looking around, see what's going around, trying to always keep myself in the right place, doing the right thing. Uh, you know, I was a worker, so and showing later my career it's all about work. When your mama used your full name, you better get over there. Mentioned around. Yeah, they say, you know, they

called me junior, so junior. So when I know they said junior, they were They wasn't a lot of juniors around. So I just started walking towards the boys. Hey, uh, your mama, When you juior and you don't get over there quick enough, it ain't gonna be I'm talking to it ain't gonna be no more junior. I mean, you know, I just see how it was flows a lot. It was a lot of kids in the family, a lot

of arts and uncles. So you know it was like we detail, you know, we had choices, we had stuff to do, so we knew what you had to do. And it was a kid. We had to walk up the road and help them to get the water bringing back to the you know, when we had our house and I was going up, you know, so everybody took a day doing their things. You've mentioned several times about your your grandfather, and my grandfather was very impactful and left for imprint on me. Um, I used the term grandfather,

but you know, for me, it's no disrespect grandpa. You know, what what was your what was your you? You keep saying your grandfather? Man? What was your grandpa's name? Because I'm reading a lot of information and I hear they called they called Jewish mass He was one, he was eight his family, but he had eight kids. Um, you know, I had five honths, three uncles, and um, you know he uh used all of them just one. The first house he had two rooms. About time I got holding up,

and next I know, it's like four or five. He added on rooms like every other year until he had like a six severial house. Um, you know, he's a big four kids in the bed this and that. I mean, we don't know. Is your grandpa add on those rooms himself with him with some hands. He did it at a leadiate when he had time. Um, you know, he was working in the field. You know, he's going back and forth. He had to walk in first. He's you know, saving his money to do that. So he was walking

back and forth to work at the early age. And he said his money, you know, he just to add a little time until he got it done. He was good with his hand, he was he was He was a hard worker. So he had you know, some of his kids growing up. They helped him after school. We went to the field or help him around the house when he you know, when he came home from work. And you know, he was always doing something not to

be weak. What what does that mean for you particularly? Um, just you know when he came up and then back in this, I mean he's going nineteen o six nine, nineteen twelve, nineteen twelve, I mean back and then it was like, hey, it was like you know what we see from a lot of these old movies that you know, opportunity wasn't there and you had to give a lot just to get oil and when the little he did, he made the best of it. And and he told me, you know, as he got older, people so respecting him

because he wouldn't. He wasn't a weak link. He doing that, you know, even though he had a lot, but he was about a lot. He's gonna stand for his family and his rights as long as he could. And most people back then died the same way he was his thoughts. He never got to the point of, you know, he died, but he told me about some people in the same situation. You know, he got a lynch down. I hear you know you're talking about don't be weak man. You hear

about basketball players all the time. You know, you hear about Lebron talking about how you know he could have played football. You hear all these these guys talking about football. But I read when you you said playing football made you tough. I love that because a lot of basketball players, just athletes in general, we all believe we can do every sport right with with great cross crossing over. We're

crossing over. Let's be honest. I watched enough basketball. I'm not a basketball g you know, Gerard are are are our co host man. Yet that he loves basketball. I get a lot of information from him, right, I'm just an average fan that watches. I don't I don't commentate. I don't have my two cents. Used to be a co worker. He was, he's been a year. So I just watch. That's all I do. I don't try to play coach or you know, some of these folks on

the couch. But being a football player, former football player, and I watched some of these basketball players. How they hit the hole, and how they when they get filed, how they flop. Some of these guys ain't built to play football. I don't care how big they are. Going across the middle as a tight end. It wasn't gonna work. Wasn't gonna work. Mm hmm. That wasn't gonna work. Back in the eighties and nine. It's some have been playing basketball.

You need talking about football, right, yeah? But football, I mean I was. I was that dude. I was that guy in football. I made it. I made a difference when I played, you know, power football to my high school with nine and one, So what possession work? I was a set down. I wasn't set down defense end. That was a defense on the right side. So you say, so, you had the quick hands. You had quick hands. I had the whole package. I like to play defense because

I like to head so you can hit. I played office. You can hit on office to now that's this is a great. Then you can run down turning yard, downfield, do this, do that. But it's just different offense. You know, you got the state the state football. You can move around. But it was fun though. I mean, I just like practice because on the brain and day they make you practice mud when rain. So we a lot of guys like, please don't in the rain. But they're just toughen you up.

We did a lot of things are toughen you up. So my college in high school coach was real. We turned down maybe it's about six pros in about ten years, you know, going to my high school. We turned out six guys went to college and went to pro. Which which guys though, uh. Tim McGee went to Tennessee with with uh since that being o. Anthony Handcock with the Kansas City John Hire went through our state first. He

was up for the high school trophy. The one of the best tackles we got, uh done Carroll with the Florida we got one of the guys. It was, but he made it as a running back. So there's some talents in the hood. But there was a lot of talent back then. When I was like coming up, it was like, you know, everybody was like good side. Now you can back to high school, everybody might be six one hundred, seventy pound five and eleven hundred, you know, a small a linemans and stuff. Not not like I

was in high school. So maybe have like two thirty They probably went down and wait, maybe my thirty pounds. That's a big difference when and play a big teams difference. Yeah, what led you to attend Virginia Union University? I've growing up just wanted to get out of Cleveland. They want to be part of it. Goes uh, it was. It was a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff was happening. Like a lot of my friends are growing up. Was they was heading to the jail house. So they're doting drugs,

and you know, I escaped it, you know, rarely escaped it. Um. So when I went to Union, I wanted to go somewhere. I couldn't just come back two hours away. I want to go somewhere like you know eight and I was away and I'm glad I did because I only came back one time in four years, so I wasn't missing Cleveland. So I was trying to get somebody of Well in Virginia Union, you didn't have any other offers. I had

a lot of offers. I said, I wanted to get away for like, I mean, that was I guess my college Kobe when he came to visit me, he drove it was a white guy. He drove away from Virginia to pick up a truck. And if the interview went away because he's a sturdy teller and you know, my mom in the union sitting there and just he was just presentation. I went to visit. I mean, it wasn't a big school, like fifteen on the students though. Everything was just like okay, I could do this, I can

do that. Classes take five minutes to get to him, and you know, just it was just something I didn't want to go out to be Some people have to take a bus to school, do this, you know, in college, do all this and all that. So everything was just right there. I didn't want to have, you know, a hiccup and like you know and blame somebody that you know, I took her something as to know what, it's easy. I can get to this building, that building, like sure,

I got time. And then I didn't want to play football because I've seen the football players getting like poth thirty five o'clock in the morning going to practice. And then as in high school, we did see it after practice at me after school they do they're doing two days and getting up at five o'clock in the morning. I didn't mind that, but five o'clock in the morning sending five degrees, yeah, seven. I want to pay dividends.

I was just at the double Tournament up in Baltimore, and of course see all your your accolades been in the Hall of Fame to see hot double A. So it definitely paid off dividends that decision. I was there. I was Jamie Wallert went in the Hall of Fame this year, so me Terry being you know, a j was you know in the Union. You know he went a few years ago. But quite a few guys and uh, you know, not just basketball, we got football, another major fel you know, the mayor and the mayor Richmond was

um Virginia Union. I think he got you know, so a lot of people in the Hall of Fame, not just athletes, different positions, walk of life. Would you say today's process to get drafted is it is a little bit easier to indoor compared to what you had to go through. Um, it might be easier for us the major school, but not for the HBC's. It's still it's still it's still a tough role because, like I said, we're gonna get a lot of covers. It's not a lot of you know, talent like it used to be

in the in the big school. So you see the comparative in the big schools and they play a small school, they're not blowing them up by thirty or forty points. To mow, it's a good game maybe too, like five minutes going the game closed, going to halftime down five or six points. But the best athletes, they say, always gonna pull away. Then the best team you know, supposed

to win. And then in the sports and Charles was a lottery picked too, So that's that's even more like remarkable to come from a smaller school hbc U and then be man, listen like that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It's like looking at your body of work and looking at the body of work of other guys that all the guys that come out of Kentucky, come out of Duke here in Charlotte, come out of U. N C. Chapel Hill. It's just they, you know, they

come and go. Guys get drafted. There's a lot of re picking before they're and therefore before their Ricky contract even expires. You already have you already have a synopsis synopsis of is this guy gonna make it? Yeah, you're a guy in the ninth overall picking. I'm just looking at it just seems it just does it Today's world,

it does not compute. And so I'm trying to figure out, other than you being Charles Oakley, other than you being who you are, how does the I'm not saying the next Charlee Okeley, but how do is a kid that's out of out of wants to get out of his town and he's enamored with the college scout that or a coach that is talking to him, but it's not

one of those big one of those power five schools. Well, I think now, since a lot of things and change in the world since um George Floyd stuff from all these incidents, opportunities the doors like Dean Standers and George or you get all these guys going back to these histories Black College to open up opportunities for different athletes, and that's the thing. But Dion did that and then George you got uh and you three other guys too. I mean, so when you get big names, people follow names.

It's still never let know what that one thing will never go away. My name goes so when people want to go so for d ND to do that and to George who uh he uh. When Hugh Jackson go back to a level to bring some pride back to these university and I think that that's a big start right there. But but when I was a Union, big house game, you had a lot of respect in the NBA. UM. You know, a lot of the talent was a lot

different though. You know, everybody like good size and Ralph talent, David Poe from the North of State talent got drafted to the Lakers second round. Then after I got drafted, Jamie got drafted to Jersey. Uh So, opportunity was there because they're seeing that going to the p i T Portsman Entertainment Invitation Tournament, guys was like, okay, the body's they got, you know, they can play a lot. And I remember my senior year, my Sawmore year, we tried

to play Georgetown. They would say, we all just you know, we don't want to pay school like that because yeah, y'all were too good. You know, you have a chance to beating them. So you have a chance to beating the big school. Back then, they didn't play it. But as the time I went on, you see, and they started playing more Division three's the Division two because a lot of Division two had good playoffs. Division three was another lower level, so they wouldn't play us. And there

after I left Virginia, come Well started playing union. They played for every four year we split. So they said, we can't play you off because they expect they will expect to beat you. They don't want you to beat them because if it used to be a warm up for the tournament play or whatever. But you know, it's just tough now that I went to the seat and they went to the game that you know, the athletes just like just like I don't know, it's it's just

like not just small school having problem with athletes. It's just major schools are too because You're seeing these guys come out of the NBA the day they're getting drafted because the numbers who they played with a you, they sliding in. But now they get drafted to go to the the NBA is a little tough. They're not living up to the potential. I love Cut to It, and I love it even more when you download us and subscribe, and you can follow us on social media too, Smithie,

where where at? That's at? Cut to It on Instagram? What about Twitter? At? Cut to It? Facebook? Cut to It featuring Steve Smith singr? What about online? And you can follow us at cut to It podcast dot com where you can buy merch and you can subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts. I got all my answers questions. Um, yeah, I got all my questions answered. That's what I'm here for, a brother cut to a Podcast dot Com. Well, I mean you started, so let's

jump into it. Then we're talking about ball. I mean, you go to No. Ninth overall pick and you're drafted by your home team. But yeah, but yeah, by the time you feel a celebrating, you're right, should trade it to the Chicago Bulls. Walk us through that process. How did they work? Well? Number one, that they had the draft, they were sounds gonna go fourth round, third round, second round. So I didn't even go to New York to the draft.

I went to my coach's house and we set up a camera and they had a phone line so when they call, you know, when they drafted me, you can call. That was a rotary phone. Was at a rotary phone? Was that a page or what kind of I didn't have a phone myself. They had my coaches house home number. Coach to the union home number. So so they called him and uh, they told us, well, it's gonna be a it's gonna be a it's gonna be a draft in the trade. He's gonna trade me. The Bulls wanted me,

but they thought there was a ten pick. The bull had the leven pick. For the bull thought the number ten pick was gonna take me. So they just traded nine for leven. So Keith Lee. They took Keith Lee at eleven and then they swapped Keith Flee. So Keith Flee with Alabama. He was like, you know, one of the big, big time guys then, but he felt his stock fails for some reason. But so we made the trains, and uh, I did the interview. You know, I have

to do the interview a week later. You go up there to introduce you to the city, and that, this and that, and I got there. I told him, I don't you know, I'm ready to stay. They said we can go back and come back in two weeks. I said, I'm ready to stay. I'm I'm ready to get into it because I know I'm on the car and uh, my work is gonna start when I get there. I said, I'm wading the state and do anything. Actually, I can't

to be ready for training camp. And so we just went from there and then August September, I met Mike was playing pick up. I was playing pick up with him. Then training camp started in in September. First we go out tower just went from there. After the dust is settled and you just mentioned it was a young upper coming team with Michael Jordan. What was your outlook on the Bulls after you just got drafted, Wow, it was

it was. My little was like, hey, you got three power for when you draft and not so we was we were like grocer store. We were stocked the one product power forwards. I had to work my way down the ladder and you know how to training camp started this and that. Everybody like you know, they've been friendly, like sometimes in the rookies, they you know, sit in and show wait and see how you're gonna react this and that. But I went in there like, hey, they't

know was stopping now. So I just went it full speed. And everything I was doing on the court, off the court early, staying late, working on my craft and about to All Star Break that year, they were I got a chance to start and then having a look back since you know, my whole career, I went from there. When did oak Charles Oakley become what we have seen

from you with the New York Knicks? Like when when did I'm not saying that it wasn't there, but you know something, obviously every after he has that has that moment where they decide what kind of player they're going to be psychologically and also physically. Well, I knew my skill level when I got there, you know, I know, Michael Jordan was there, Queen Dayala Atlanta Ward. My thing was I average twenty four and seventeen months a year. I said, if I can get half of everything, I'm good.

You know what I'm saying, good pro like, have you know half you know half a twenty four and you know rebounds. I know I can rebound, so I know that going to Chicago Bull there we're gonna be no shots. I knew you scratch that off this right, Yeah, to them that I can play no matter, Well, Matt, I can play basketball. Show them that how I Q understood? You know, you know the plays and no no time of possession, of the clock, knowing who who, you know

on the strength of weakness on the team. You know, just all the detail. That was real detail. And I think some guys get cut because they don't know details. You can be a planted you know this and that for newing details. Know what you're playing with it all time. You know where the ball should be going a certain times on shot clock, all the little small stuff. What I'm asking this dumb question and I'm okay with it, but what is basketball intelligence? Break that down for me

just because I don't know this well. First of all, is I mean when you get know, five possessions, five positions on the court one to five even though you ain't playing it, but you still got no one know what the comeback. It's always a counter every play. What can do is that i Q, because you know sometimes you might get come down the court and you got to say you have five, but you're in a two position.

You gotta know what the to do. And all that's knowing the smart and you know, like I said, knowing what guys will come into the of the bench where they can do good and just know, like I said, with the team concept, what you're looking for gaming and game out the type of temple. Oh, you won't who you're playing against. You still gotta play with intelligence. Do you think it's more needed now or back then when you played? You have no need? You said, you don't

know why? Why? Why not? Well, if he wants the game, you can tell i Q. You can see air ball. They saying you look at the game, just look at the man who you're playing. You can just see it. The same effect. You're gonna see four or five turnover in the first three of three minutes of the game, three or four a air balls, five or six miss free throw. All this in the first five or six minutes of the game. And now back in the days, most tournalmen you can have is twelve in the game.

You get six in the first six minute of game. I mean, you're gonna wait two over the morgue in the game. Free throws that don't count. I mean, back in the days, every possession came down to just about two or three possession. So if you missed sixtem free throws by you know, in one quarter, they're gonna kill you for winning the game. So just it's just a lot of it's it's just I heard a commentator said one game like, well, since he handled the ball, somebody

he can, it's okay for six I'm trying over. I mean, imagine handling the ball on the i Q. You know, two or three turnovers at the most, not six, seven, eight. But that's the new ball game. Now. You can miss eight throws and a half and lose by three points. And one of while he lost, I mean it was you lose about two points. That's how you lost. But they don't they don't put it in the analytical mocals. They want to swoo threes. They wanted to change the

dynamic game to analytic game. And well they only do atlantic for three quarters, not fourth quarter on the why because the fourth quarter of the bad quarter. The book is called the Last Enforcer. What what was the premise when you started going down this path to write in the book? What what did you want the purpose of the book to be. Well, you know, over my career, I know everybody is you know, he played about Ford,

he through this that. I just wanted to know how I was brought up through the family, Um what I went through a versus through my journey to the NBA atop you know, being on the back page or the New York Time to Post whatever magazine for you know, the ten years other day in New York. I just wanted people to see that it was. It wasn't either ride you know, um, you know, like first like that, like what went to college? My first I had to

cast the Greyhound. You know, just different stuff. And in this book just like you know, it's really gonna incite to you, like you know, the stirs and the running with people and you know, I still stay on the course or you know, being this guy who's gonna handling business no matter what got in my weight. So you're

talking about you know, some of that. It was something I'm pulling out and not to talk about him, but it really triggered me because some people and they read it, they go wow, really, But it's also one of those things where I believe that the average fan doesn't really understand it. Right when you're talking about Patrick Hewing, how lazy he was, and I've played with players and I'm not naming, but I played with players and also fans A go I name Patrick. Yeah, I know it's okay. Listen,

his book says outrageous stories. He wants you to know that. I'm gonna say it, but I'm hey, I'm not I'm almost getting to your to your level of age. I'm I'm still I'm tiptoeing in the forty three this year, so I got a little ways to go, right, Um. But I one of the things that sat with me, it's people. Some people are like, he's a Hall of Famer, how is he? How is he lazy? That's the gift of basket of anybody where his gifts we're good enough that he didn't have to work hard. But there are

players who have who don't have the gifts. I believe I didn't have the gift. I had to work extremely hard, harder than the other person who didn't have it. Obviously because of my lack of height, all of that stuff, and we're in the same kindgory too. Yeah, but people, people are gasping, I'm still working, you know something. But see that that is what you're just saying. Um. You know, like when they like back in the eight is and

none is. See it was a selfish lead. So I'm talking in a way that I've seen it how selfish guys was and he was taking the wrong way. He wasn't just my teammate. It was all the stupid stars of selfish in the eight is and None. Why do you have another Why do you think that because he was just how to leave was trans you know, transparens back then. Because my thing is every team has systems and the first two guys the ball had to go through between it when like coming down shooting quick three

those shots. Everything was controlled even off the court, meets and teams, you know, like I said, we have a team appearance and stuff, all that stuff. Everything was so controlling. And you know, but your dream team you all Star. I mean, like I remember Jim Jackson had a twenty nine points and the leading leading score. They make the All Star team because his name, he wasn't one of the guys they went by they had they they had their few guys on every Eastern West. They're gonna make

it no matter what they stat was. They started changing a little more at the two you know, late nineties, two thousand's, you know, but it was so controlling and then each organsta each was controlling and you know, like now you go to a gift shop, you might have everybody's jergy in there. Back when we play and New York, we want to have Patrick m for now in my

ten years, maybe my last year there or whatever. Once we went to the finals, might I had minds and then John maybe, but they didn't do the team thing. Weren't the unity thing was just one guy. You know, if you went on the All Star team, your jersey wasn't gonna be nowhere around. But it was like that. It was it was I'm telling you know. They that was like Lebron. All of them guys speak up about different topic, different you know eight and that that guy.

Everybody the might was had tape folders. They speak about no issues, that what's going on in the industry. I think they were spoke up more back then. A lot of this way basketball and now I wouldn't be the same because it be a little more structured. You know, I think it's we're going now is you know, like step kerr had fit the points in the All Star Game, his sixteen threes. These kids can't make these threes, but

they're trying them. Then, team you got suiting the Pacis from the free throw line, but they want to shoot through you. You got three points right there, they free right there, but you rather pull up for the three and like he said, you know you people don't run an offense no more. It's it's one on one. It's it's I hate watching hurting teams that think they like something like Okay, look at Memphis, what they're doing. Look

at Chicago, Look at they're doing. Look what h Chicago, Cleveland, they're going back to the you know, powerful and center and their line up. They're trying to just shoot through. They trying to work the ball around to the you know, a little good shot. You know you're following that gold State, Yeah, Golden State, but they want a championship. They weren't taking three,

they were taking the best available shot. It's it's they want a lot of showmanship and games now they want a lot of high scooling game they won't dunks, they won't Oh um, if you want to listen to these I was watching the game. Was it last night or something? I was trying to watch the game, but I think of the Lagos game. What's up? It's just like I was, most of you just watched highlights because it's hard to

watch the whole game. H I don't know, y'all what y'all looking to gal i' looking for a good dcl either game like it's not it's hard to watch. Yeah, says that says a lot. It says a lot from Charles perspective playing in the in the nineties, playing when you played a spectacular era in basketball NBA to where today he's like, I don't even know if what do you know? What I love about back then basketball which is different from today today. Everybody wants to be a hero.

I love watching the Knicks, the Pacers, right, the Bulls, each team they were either the villain or think about as they like it was it was a sure man Lex Luger. But when you watch ball to day, everybody wants to be superman. You couldn't wait for Reggie to go into Madison Square Garden because you know that that's a real rivalry. But you know one thing, I mean, I might say about this day and age, and I

age you got more freedom. Man. Back then it wasn't no freedom too, you know, just they got more freedom. I mean, you can come down and shoot the three and don't even care if he missed two or three in a row. You shoot another one happened in nineties. If you if you didn't that in the nineties, what would happened? You know, they're gonna snatch you out. You got Joel and B three or four games. You got Joel and B running point. It's just it's just that's embarrassing.

He told me. He told me that. I said, up two years I think it was two years ago. He shouldn't be the next World Chamber. Just average fifty with just all lay up and filing guys out came about stopp him. Nobody, nobody cut Let's get down to do. Hey, Gerard, why did you get that T shirt? You mean this thing? Oh yes, I got it from cut to a podcast dot com where we have exclusive merchandise shout out to our guys at seven or four shot. But yeah, you can go on, buy you a T shirt, Subscribe to

us wherever you listen to podcasts. What makes a team special and special? Um? Special players? Memphis, Uh, Chicago special when Zack Zack, Marazine and the Roles are playing. I mean they got special two players, a Phally especial. Now you know, it's just on the team to make it special, not go out before. I don't think Phoenix special. They just a team that play well together. Especially you guy have it that it? I mean Booka is that it? But he don't get his credit for some reason. Huh,

I said, why is that? I don't know. I mean a lot of guys went through that round. Like I said, Jim Jackson, I mean, can can score all. I don't know, Books. I mean, it's just something about it. I mean they're gonna you gotta just you know, like I said, All Star, there's no way Wicked Sidney been starting All Star. I don't get that one. But the fans voted for him. But I think that Bogle definitely him mc clayton best

two best two guards on the West. When Clayton right now, he definitely hand down the best to guard right in the league right now. So Aga in your book, The Last Enforcer, Outrageous Stories from the life and Times of one of the NBA's fierce competitors, with the forward by Michael Jordan's and in collaboration with award winning sports writer Frank I Sola, Why did you why did you want both MJ and Frank to to have that forward in your book? Um? For Frank, he was a bet writer

in New York. I end the people, maybe six different guys, and uh, I just felt comfortable with him. He knew about me, he knew uh you know, and being in New York what I've been through, and we had a good you know, we had a good little core and him over the years, you know. And for the MJ doing it for its just so when I would have, you know, someone been in my corner and someone was in my back and someone I knew I could kindo.

So when I called him to do the four when we're like, okay, how many days before you need it? And then asked me nothing. He didn't even have a book before. He just got a book, probably the same time y'all got the book. How did y'all hit it

off so well? You? M J? Probably in the book I talked a little about it, but probably just seeing how I was as a as a you know team I got coming in from a small school UM Virginia Union, and seeing that my consistency for being on early come you know, knowing knowing the plays, working afterwards, just being a hummer, you know, didn't like they call a filers call something practice and you know, like this said now and just kept playing, just kept the same attitude and

just just being a grown man in a different in a different appo field. Like I said, all of them guys went the Division one school. I went to Division two. They didn't. They didn't fear me because and like my journey from coming out my senior year was I played against a lot of Division one guys in the All Star Games, and I helped my own so one got to the pro. I know, it's different. I had the man power, so I just kept it going. You know,

just knew how to work the work. It's all about work, especially you know, uh back then, you gotta know how to work. Could plain, We're gonna get it. I just said, to show him that he was tougher than tougher than the next guy. Going through going back of your career and doing the book, did you have any moments where you just started to start to have any regrets or thought, man, maybe I should have did it this way versus that way. That's that's real stuff. I mean, I didn't ain't twice.

It's a lot more I could have put in about wait for the next one. It's it's and if you think this one, the next one really gonna be juicy. We got so wait, wait a minute, we do we get the exclusive? Did we just get? I guess some Hey, this just to get you in the theater. Then I started singing, day that's when you like that one. Well, I started singing, I'm just being I've been nice. Really, this book real nice because like I said, I can

crank it up here. I could. I could be like a go go bad to d C. I can crank it up. So it was it was smoller than me because I remember everything. I had notes that that isn't that. But I had fun. You know. My thing is these stores in this okay, last the stories in the book, it's just like wow. So the stories just like every time I was on the story like I was, you know, it was people there, like the one in the garden when the all the guys on death Row all of

them came and like push us in one room. Then I've seen the guy in Dallas. But Dion saying nothing that out of this and that it was. It just came easy because it's so real. It was so the story is so real. And the other good thing were everyone in my story. It was someone condentified. You know, some people like well and I just tried to set something to get somebody to come to the you know, buy the book. Uh, you know said he had some

good story. Now all these are my real stories. So you really did toss uh Charles Barkley out there at the club. I just smacked him. And you know that's what I'm saying. I'm saying, toss hibout the club. I was trying to be nice. So you smacked him. He didn't like flinch back. He just took the smack. I smacked Hi when they had a seating way for the meeting store. That's a business man just got smacked and he just took one of them so chucking. Hey, Chuck

is on TNT high behind the glass. That's all the time he do it talking because Chelly talking that madcash. Okay, we all know what that means. We don't know what that means what we did. But we didn't do it with the piscil. We did it with what you put down. We put sleep for sein. We came to this name because we can't stop with what say. No, that's that, that's the anti hermit, which now I'm hitting on this. You finally got it, didn't you know? That's the that's

the bully I'm talking about. That's the old school. That's the old school, and not bullying a negative way. I just mean bullying. I stick to what I say, and what I say is what I mean. Yeah, man, that

was enforced to what I say. That's what I'm talking about me really, because you even talk about in the in the book, you talk about you know, vets control in the locker room, even from when Scottie Pippot first got into the locker room, when you were with the bulls like you you you with the vet control in the locker room. I mean, I would tell you it's in the book. But the time when I was a rookie and you know you got I carre the bags two times just you know, say hey, I'm gonna do

the right thing. And the time when I missed the first bus I got on the second bus, they try to go at me a little bit, and then we got to the rido that I had to rush in the change to get taped. And then they said, now rookie, you can't get taped. And I said, if I don't get taped, and nobody getting taped. But that's what I got book, I said, I took all the tape, me through and the guy, but yeah, I ain't getting tape nobody. We all, we all. So the next practice we had,

everybody was in that room. I wanted their head so in practice they can't do them too you, So I just wanted their heads and practice, I said, next time, open to the table. You're gonna saying about that tape? Are you? So I got a bad in practice because it wasn't It wasn't no leons that day. You weren't even a free throw that day. I'm sending all this

down shoot if you want. Man, Yeah, we we definitely got to get you with this second book, because we're there's so many we probably don't even have enough time to getting all these stories. There's so many names. Now, Brad Doherty, you know, he was with he got drafted, he was with Cleveland man. He was a big he was a big guy. Right, you're you're a big guy. Tell us some of the big guys that you you had to bang with in the post that just they

were soft. Just be honest, like plays look like Tarzan, play like I like, I like Brad Dorton. I'm not saying brand I'm just talking about just overall. I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean a lot of like you said, they blow the whilst a and you know they blow me. If I was an offensive guy, and some of the guys I played against, if I got much called them, I probably my better player. I've probably been like a player. You know, I'm probably be be minded player. But I

don't mind. I set my role. I don't have to be a player. My key thing, well, I made him respect me. Anybody wouldn't level. I just made him respect me. So I don't have respect, you know. I know, I you know, make some money some of these guys, but it's all good. Just respect me. You know, I put long, I can put my own key in my door and

turning and going somehow house. I was good. I'm gonna go off some names and and you tell me first thing to pop in your mind, David Robinson, I like that Robert, good hearted guy until he said he made a comment about something that I never was thought he would speak up because I never heard him talking in

his whole career about the top of it. And I just want saying like I like him, and to that point, I still like him, but he just I never thought he would get into the controversial conversation about what something was happening. And I just said, wow, I was olvera heard the whole I said this to the paper. I said, I wish I would have heard this whole career speak up while I speak up eighteen years later. So he's a great player. Achimalajuan, Top three Folds, Sinners, that well man.

Listen some of those low post movies that that dream had, that dreamshake it was, it was. It was a dream to watch. He left some nightmares. That's bass Pastrick. He should know he's sniping. Now. Uh, let's see, let's see, let's see. Um, let's go with Sean Kimp. I like Sean Kimp, so this would be a good comparison. Sean Kimp but a Greek freak oh Man. In my personal opinion, Greek has gotten so much better. His game has got

I can see that now. I'm sing. They were a lot of like, yeah, you don't think so, I thought Sean would. I think Sean younger was a lot more raw and less hesitant than the Greek freak when he was younger Greek freak, So you don't think he wasn't hesitant and didn't have two years. He's really got in his he's in his bag these last couple of years. I just even when Sean wasn't even when he was hesitant,

he he would go. He would attack absolutely, like if he knew he didn't have no he was his jumper was off, which was a lot I'm go on you several times. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, he was gonna make you work on the back end and play some defense Greek. And sometimes he earlier on, he would disappear in the game. Yeah you gave me seven seven feet in yonder and disappear.

He figured what he did to Felix fit some points without the three and making some sam teams, some free throws and twos, and he just took old we just went down hill. He made Aiden looked like he was he was there sitting for Phoenix. So he definitely improved. I'm talking about this first to it. I made a statement about he wouldn't have started back in the ages

and nothing, and they went crazy about it. But my thing is, if you look at the game back then, so Jerry Coole was the number one pick, she walat you know these guys you do, you had to be good. They ain't get you three years to get good. That's different. He got the thirty fourth field. This guy was good coming out of the gate. And the fans don't get like he wud had a hard time back then. Bill Lambier, I like lamb Bill. He never did nothing to me, So I ain't got any this man said about saying

anything bad. I'm just I know a lot of people like, oh he played there. Yeah, he don't. Like I said. People don't let you do lambre do something dirty and you don't do somebody to him. You let him do it. So okay. But he never went out of his way to do nothing to me. He changed the game with this guy, you mean well changing He changed the game.

Cry changed the game. I mean right now the Greeks were changing of the game because he he getting thirty some points a night with the ease nobody's nobody helping out on defense. No more, there's no help out once you be the one guy. It's a dunk. It's more. I say, it's so most dunc and I ain't see this is don't get it. Dune comes ups. That was a stinker. So, I mean you've had You've talked about

some of your altercations, so you've ben't smacked up. But one thing I pulled out of the book is you also present at the nine Source Awards, a classic year in hip hop. You talked about Tupac being in the room, Biggie being in the room, and this is right before their deaths. Speak on that a little bit. That to me just is just so robust of a story that that you were able to present and be in the room at that time, you know, in that era hip hop. Yeah.

So and the book we talked about that. But it was a lot of tension, you know, Uh, Jethro had a hunting some guys that came in from New York and get the Woutane. You got this this level of puffet with this group you got, I mean just all New York, all the different girls. There was a lot of tension and not just like I can't believe basically they still they really. I think they pumped New York,

you know, by going on stage Snoop sing y'all. Don't love Snoop Dog You're in New York, I said in the book, like why should you love to get your ward and going back home? I mean, I ain't gonna love you. I mean it's just like, I don't know, but I spent a lot of stuff in New York. I never would believe what happened. It happened, So I can see why that happened. You know, when people started to start, you know, taking over your turf, and you don't fight back the right way. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

You know that again the two part the new leg life. In a way that something probably transparent from what happened, not just that night, but altogether. You know what I'm saying, something built up to both of them life. That's why they're not here today. Well, I'm gonna just tell you, man, it's been a it's been a pleasure man, just to

talk to you. And here here the stories. Um, I'm really really interested in diving deep diving in a book just to hear and look at just the stuff that's not making it, the little small things that you know that you talk about, you know, knowing the details. There's a lot in that book of knowing the details that it's not gonna be at what we call click bait because it's not juicy enough. But it's transparent, it's textural. It's textural that gives the essence of who you are, man.

And so for us to have you on cut to it, man, it's it's it's an honor just because I use the word bully, but it's more of just saying that old school, old school, old school flavor o school stuff. No matter how current, how provocative, or how extravagant and nice new things are, the old school stuff is what we always

go back to. And and and your old school do man, and and um so, Man, it's just it's just kind of cool to sit here and and talk to you because I remember you're the type of players my grandpa in football and basketball. I say, look, you want to play ball. These are the men you have to mirror your game after. Right, They hit first, ask questions last, and when they make a mistake, hey they made a mistake, but they hit you in them out first. Nobody saying

what you just said. But mostly people want to I get that a lot. You know, people just hard work or do this and that, but most people want remember the game had someone sexy doing this and that. But I get a lot like just the hard work. That's how you take the charge and do this and that. A lot of people I didn't. I was the similar player to you, and I did that. I made my team better about doing all these things I'm saying, I appreciate it goes. I didn't look at it like I

had to score twenty points. Everything I looked at I had to get my team going, had to set the tone. So my thing is, yeah, you don't get a lot of trains of doing what you're doing, but somebody always watching you. That's what somebody always watching you because you mean something, not don't nothing the matter. They can talk you down, but you know what you know what you can do, do it, do be consistent with what you do. That's all. So if you couldn't do it, they wouldn't

pick you. You with me playing so to you, than you are man. You are a unique person. You are well worth it, You are competent, and most of all, your Lovable. I'm Steve Smith, singer, I'm Gerald Little John and this is cut to It. Cut to It with Steve Smith Senior. That Is Me is a production of Cut to It LLC, Balto Creative Media, The Black Effect

and I Heart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio Apple Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows from Cut to It. Executive producer Steve Smith, Singer co host Gerard Little John, talent in booking manager Joe Fusci, Social media team Wesley Robinson and John Show from Balto Creative Media. Cut to It is produced by Brian Baltaschevic and Meredith Carter, with

production assistance by Alex Lebrec. Production Coordinator Taylor Robinson. Theme music by Alex Johnson, lyrics and vocals by Anthony Hamilton. You ain't heard about it, then we're about to let you know. It's all