BOMANI JONES

Game theory entrepreneur. He's a host not of game shows, but he's also a journalist and super uper uh uper super super uper. He got so many degrees and yet he's doing sports. But we'll get into that. Bomani Joe. No matter thing's happening. I appreciate it. Were about welcome bro, you about that something fun, kick back, Take shoes off, close curtain, everything's good, better curtain. Sorry, that's bad, bad bath. Just that ain't west That ain't right there, that's not

west side. I think you're ignoring the fact that I'm a single man. Like like like, if you would have asked me to go get a good curtain, I could get you. I could go get an expensive curtain, but I can't tell you that I would know a good one if I saw it. Hints kind of why you're still single. That goes the other one. Gonna convince me that before you got married, all of a sudden you're furticure game, but you're the floor was just super duper all point. At least it's up that you did for yourself,

not wonder one, wonder one. I'm light skinned, so I can say possibly, let's just say we all learned the game. I was gonna say game recognized games. Did you see my face? I said possibly? Yeah? Alright, so man, um, I love this. Well, this is this is really it's right up Lley. It has nothing to do with the podcast, just random, just super duper random questions. So iceb it's called get ice stuff. Yeah. So it's just like you know, I'm like, why is he asking me that? It's just

just get your relaxing in. Sometimes I'm a dad, so there's times where I just have I just got terrible dad jokes, right, so I'm going to your repertoire. Well they actually there's an app called dad Jokes. You're supposed to finesse out of it. Yeah, no, no, sometimes you just gotta on it. Got on it, all right. So here's a pretty bad one. It's an icebreaker. Why are rivers so rich? Ohm hm hm m hmm. Good question. Why are we so rich? Because they have two banks?

But I'm sorry, man, hey, that was the best I got right there. I gotta say. I was really trying to like think I could like get it. I'm going to figure out the answer myself. And Nope, didn't get to the bank. I was. I was like he said about currency perhaps, No, Nope, I was when you go through that performance, I was just gonna wait on the answer. Yeah, it's really it. Literally. I said this the other day. We were at dinner. Um, we're at lunch, and my

kids looked at me. I was like, yeah, so whatever, it doesn't it doesn't matter. It was I was feeling it, so that's all it counts. Drake talked about that fake love. That's that's it right there. Yeah, you know that fake love. I can have it right in the line before we check on that flight. All right, um man, who is someone important in your life? Somebody important in my life? For this one, I'll say my brother. Like I moved

to New York five years ago. And one of the cool things is that my brother is thirteen years old than me, so like we're closer in age now than we've ever been before, if that makes sense. Like when you're eighteen and you know he's eighteen and you're five, you know, then what uh and so and so like

I moved here five years ago. He lives like literally a block away from me now, and so we get to you know, kick it as adults, like both of us being adults, which is like a real cool thing, not like he being an adult and you uh, you know, like not everything I do now was the reason to give me advice because you know, otherwise it is it's like it's your story. Yeah, put you all into something right fast called the party? Are you? Um man? Where are you from? In a place you call your hometown?

I was born in Atlanta, but we moved to Houston when I was six and we stayed there to a lot of sixteens, so I'd say I grew up in Houston. Now,

how was growing up in Houston for you? Well, it's interesting because I grew up in like the northwest suburbs of Houston, but my parents taught at a prairie view and the university, and my parents thought that where we lived just had too many white people for them to feel comfortable put me in the schools um and so I went to school in this town called Wall of Texas, population fourteen hundred nine when I graduated. So it's like I grew up in one place but went to school

in another place. Hold on, how many fourteen? So less you know how many people are your graduating class? No, if my graduating class had two hundred people, goes well, see how it goes in the country is one town has the school for a bunch of towns, right right, Like you just got the one that's the location, and then you know, because the geography, and then they bring everybody in. So we had like people um in my

graduating class. But yeah, so it's kind of interesting to like live in one place but you're like day to day life is in another. And it's also kind of interesting when you do that. And most people are trying to go from like lower income areas to find ways to sneak into the schools of the higher income areas, and you gotta higher income sneaking. Yeah, the other ways involved, we call that ask backwards. Yeah, but you know what. That's the thing about being black though, right, is that

the social the social stuff, it's so important. And so rather than winding up like isolated as like the one black dude in some of these other spaces, and I've seen it happen to other people and I seen him

get destroyed by it. Instead, like I went to school at what people would kind of think of as like the middle of nowhere type stuff, and it was the best thing that could have happened for me because what I had to learn was how to actually talk to people, you know, Like you could be the smart kid in these other places and just only be around the smart kids and you come out of there and don't know how to interact with people, right, Like that's how you

you know, And there was a learning process for me. But I got an awareness of life where if I had just gone to school with a bunch of people who grew up in the same neighborhood as I did, I would have had a much different view of the world than I did from going somewhere where like classes and was determined who goes to school here. It's just pure geography. So you meet a little bit of this,

a little bit of that a little bit. You know, all these people all over place, so you know that's that's the thing that's a little different for me about it is I learned very quickly that Okay, my parents are us is that's cool. But you better learn how to talk to like secretaries too, you know what I mean? You better learn how to talk to the people that work in the building, and you know and recognize that they are you, you are them, Like, ain't a whole

lot of difference betweens. So so with parents who were professors, what were those kitchen table conversations like for you early on? Well, the thing with them is, at least for me, it was less about like what they were saying to me as much as what they were saying to each other.

And I just happened to be there, you know. You're like, yeah, yeah, you know, so like them talking about what they see on the news, it lands a little different when it's an economist and the political scientists talking about it, you know what I mean. Little yeah, and it's but it's not like they're talking about it in like high falut terms or anything like that. Like it's not you know, it's not that sort of vibe but what what made

that interesting for me? The is so since my siblings are old, right, like my brother's thirteen years old to me, my sisters ten years older to be the people I went to school with twenty something miles away. So like my handout partners by the house are these professors and their friends who are also professors. So I'm at home and there's like that level of conversation that I'm accustomed to. It took a long time to figure out how to adapt that to like dealing with everybody else. You know,

It's funny, is mhmm? You sound like my I'm not comparing, but you sound like my son Deuce, who's seven. My oldest is four, second should be twenty one in September. Then I gotta soon to be seventeen year old. Then who got a seven year old? Right? And when my seventh year oldest he's at basketball practice, are not at the house. There are things that me and my wife are talking about that deuces ear hustling on and then he's starting to interrupt and ask follow up questions right

like a lab right on that excuse me? Right? And and so it's you're connecting, Yes, you're connecting. Those dots like you're talking, I'm going wow, like just just thinking about it, so you know, and and I interrupted to to connect the dots. So what are some of those conversations that that that g s like that you and maybe that you're even having applied until now that you like you're just you're just connect your dots like oh like, because I know they're not sitting there having hyper uh

you know, intellectual conversations. They're like they're at the house between their walls, right intimate you know, mom and dad, you got their stuff, and then they're just loose, right, a little bit loose where they don't have to work concern themselves with you know, how they said they could sometimes said in the way that they how they truly feel uh economically, ethnically, um ship by the end of the day just kind of like hey, I'm I'm just tired today and this is and just just saying that

the real way they want to say, Yeah, like I think the big thing and I picked it up. I know exactly when I fully put the dots together, like, oh, right, is like my father's skepticism about racing America. I did not necessarily share the whole way because then I grew up in the nineties. The nineties, to me, we're like

the most optimistic time on races. They like like we actually had an era where high fashion was closed telling people not to be racist no more, you know, like it was kind of a dawn of the time that felt like we might have been doing something. And then Hurricane can Train a hit and I was like, oh I was wrong about everything, right, Like wow, No, they really will just ignore us just because we're black. Oh they really will stop us from coming over a bridge

just because we're black. Like I just that was like a wild thought to me up until that point, like it could be like almost governmental, not just like a couple of people around and so like here and my dad and parents are both like sitting, you know, supposed who did involved in significant like historically significant citty in and stuff when they were younger. That it's that discussion.

But I think the other part that where I got really lucky was I spent Since I didn't live where I went to school, I would go to my mom's office after school and she was the dean of business at her view for most of my childhood, and so I had like exposure to how an office ran, and importantly it was being exposed to an office where a woman is at the top of the chain, Like a woman is the one not just that people have to respect, but also it's the person who establishes the culture um

of the office. And that as I really look back at it, like I think about now doing this TV show and not like being the boss boss, but being on top of it that learning how to like I learned how to relate to people in offices and kind of see the importance of how everybody feels about different things and stuff like that, people having some good fortune of being around that managing people, Yes, managing people and recognizing that like flexi power where people's face ain't gonna work,

like respect is earned. You're gonna have to like if they don't respect you, you you ain't gonna make them respect you. Right, you can make them fear you, but you can't make them respect you. And I think that's something that women are far more likely to understand than men because in the end, then you know, as there the parking lot to really come down to it, you know, like there's a chain of there's a chain of events to earn that respect With women now you just gotta hurt it. Yeah,

I like it. I'm it's it's a lot there to unpack, because there is there are some things that you know, as men, m it just doesn't add up for us. We just don't get it. But then you also add the business aspect of it, where you know, I use a phrase bulling the china closet, right, and then listening to everyone in and taking the temperature of the room and figuring out who you know, for myself is figuring out what is what is Sally? What is Jenny? What

is James? What are they going through at home? To know what can I get out of them today and figuring that out, and then also going, yeah, Alison just is having a tough day today. So there's no sense trying to pull that extra out of it, because all you're gonna do is actually reset the whole office. You're gonna mess up the whole office, and then that whole office is gonna be mad at you and you're the boss. Things you got to navigate through, uh, going going back

through to your your upbringing. You graduated from Wala High School in Houston when you were sixteen. Now I don't that's not something that happens every day. Walk us through that. No, it's just when we moved to Texas, Um I was a little ahead of the curriculum that they would teaching slightly time. Yeah, well yeah, well the thing was like prior to that, the way I described it is, I did like a home school at somebody else's house, but it was real like red, black, green, power to the

people type situation, you know what I mean. And so in a situation like that, you're not going to what is your quote unquote grade level. You go on as far as you go. And so when we moved to Texas, that was just jumping back for me to like things I had long done before. And it just didn't make no sense for me to be in the grade that they had me in, and so they put me up one. And then on top of that, my birthday is late as in eight August, and like September is the roll

over for schools there. So for me it became interesting because I was already one of the youngest people in the grade I was supposed to be in, and then you get skipped a grade, so I'm like two years younger than people in my actual grade. But it's what it always was, so I never really gave it any thought. It's stunk in like middle school when everybody's growing and

still you're still waiting for the party. Um. But by you know, by twelfth grade, I got up six feet, so you know, I made it back to the point. Know I I got back. I got back around where the crew was eventually, you know, but in the and it it being a time. Yeah, you know, like sports win't gonna happen for me, like the calendar dictated. That's true. Did you ever feel out of place because because of that? And if you did, did you ever feel that being

out of place? Did you ever view that as an opportunity? Now? I didn't feel out of place because of age stuff, because I was like I was in school with all those people from third grade up like whatever it was. It always was like they might not necessarily know how old I was. It wasn't. But I didn't get that part um really too much thought, um, because it wasn't like I couldn't hang into space as I was in.

So like if I was in like if I if you skip me a grade and I'm way less mature than the kids in the grade because I'm too young, then that's gonna be one thing. But whenever they put me up in something like that, like I was, I was cool with being in that space because I like I knew why I was there. I knew I could hang Like. It wasn't that I'm spending all this time hanging out with actually grown ups. You know, these kids

who were just a year older than me. That ain't You had your folks, right, you had your brother and then you were you know, age wise, you were you were younger, So it was it was the status quote for you. That was that was that was every day you're flourishing and standing out, you know even you know what it was. Yeah, you don't even know you're flourishing.

That's just your every day right, Yeah, it's Well. The other thing was, for whatever reason, I've been somebody that people could identify as smart, like really early and without much background. It's not like they're just waiting around to being like, oh, this guy's really smart. Like for whatever reason,

people catch it pretty quick. And so especially when you going to school with the same people for all these years, like they knew I was the smart dude from nineteen eighties seven, all like that's that's who and what I was, And so I always had a place because I always had that, which is actually cool because I learned something that I think a lot of like smart kids don't quite get, which is the other kids do. They don't

mind you being smart. They just don't want you to be a jerk about it, you know what I mean, Like they might pick on you for being a nerve, but everybody wants to be smart, and a single person out here, like man, I wish I was who wants to Yeah, they just don't want you to be a jerk about being smart. But it was always my bag, Like it was when I went to college, it was a problem because I realized, oh, you gotta have a different hustle than this, Like that's like I'm the smartest

person in the room. Does not worked as an adult, but as a child people think that stuff is kind of cool. What what was some of your dreams growing up as as a as a child? Man? So it's actually funny because it's like bo Jackson was my like number one athlete. He wrote, like and ship still is what I'm talking about. Used to be um And I remember I had the boat was closed. I don't know if you remember, it's one that went long ways across

with the with the bat. This is the one where he was doing everything like it said when he was both Yeah, so he's like in a hockey years too poor. We just had the bat to show the path. I didn't know there was another Yeah that was I had bikes. I didn't have nikes. I had bikes. So only only one I know was to show the pads in the bat. What you're talking about. I'm not on that side of the county. I'm on the other yonder. It did not I did not realize until right now that bikes shoes

were actually blue leg night. I never put the two with two together. Serious, you can get it from Sears. Yeah, I just until right like I remember him and I was like, how what an interesting name for shoes. Consider that that was it? But now but it was the closed with him doing all the stuff. And when I was growing up, I wanted to do everything, like I believe that I could be good at doing a ziity and different things like jack ball trades like that was

the idea of what I wanted to do. And it's actually kind of wild because I did the thirty thirty on bo Jackson. I sat for that, and I don't on me while I was in it. Like when you look at what like, especially with media is in this day and time. But I am doing like class these different things at efferent point, you know, like it kind of worked out there. I love cut to It, and I love it even more when you download us and subscribe and you can follow us on social media too, Smithie,

where where at? That's at? Cut to It on Instagram? What about Twitter? At? Cut to It? Facebook? Cut to It featuring Steve Smith singr? What about online? And you can follow us at cut to It podcast dot com where you can buy merch and you can subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts. I got all my answers, questions. Um, I got all my questions answered. That's what I'm here for, a brother cut to a podcast dot com. Bro. You got all these degrees and went to college, but you're

doing sports? Yeah? How and why? Um? It's a couple of things. So when I was in college, I started like freelance writing about music and culture and stuff like that, and I really enjoyed it. And when I got out of college, the one thing I knew was that I did not want to go to graduate school, and I definitely did not want to study economics again. But I remember study all of that. Yeah, it was it was

here's I go. So so, while I'm finishing my senior year and I'm writing, I'm talking to this guy's a freelancer, and I, you know, looked up to him. He was far more experience than me. And he sent me an email saying how excited he was because he had made ten thousand dollars freelancing in the previous years doing his taxes and he made ten I was in dollars, and he was really excited about the fact that he made ten thousand dollars doing it. And I said, wait a minute.

Four thousand dollars is an exciting figure for this freelance life. Like if I made ten thousand dollars, maybe I should be happy about it. I completely misunderstood what kind of money was out there, and so I ain't know what I was gonna do. But as a guy who owned the magazine, I want to say in like Baltimore, he hit me up and he was trying to start this and he had all these like kind of Scott things.

He's gonna do for me and you know about paying it, all this stuff, and I hadn't heard from him for a while. To my home boys are going to d C. And I said, look, I'm gonna ride up with y'all and I'm gonna meeting this cat of all a hundred dollars for my parents. I got in the car and the dude stood me up. And I remember I was at my home boys mama's house on the couch, my head back to stressed because it's like August. I have a degree and I had no play. What am I

going to do? And I get a phone call from Clarenmont Graduate University and Claremont California and they're like, uh so we essentially the emails about this fellowship, but uh you never responded and now now I'm here to listen, you know, tell me some more. And they got talking and I said, I mean, I'm talking. I said, cool, and I was like, okay, so this is I'm assuming for the you know, for January, for the spring, and they're like, no, this is for the fault. And I

called my parents. It was like, you know, can you you know, can y'all get me there? And they did, and so I got there, and my thinking was, Okay, I want to do this writing thing, but I want to get to like kind of like that public intellectual space, right like the Michael Lary Dice and type of stuff. And I realized there were no people who were no black economists who were in that space, and I was like, okay, so if I can become that dude, right, like, I can use this to do that. And so it was

always really for the writing. And so the first degree was great, like I really learned a lot just about the end of played between politics and economics, which is really helpful in sports with just the business of things, and when the business of things becomes part of the actual politics, like not like some Kaeperniic stuff, but like stadium building stuff like you know, I understood and stuff like that, and revenue shape exactly, like what's going on

with the commanders, how he's schanging that? Yeah, like that that yeah. And so I kept going through school with it, and after I've done that Masters, I was like, yeah, I kind of dig this. I think I can do a PhD. And then I started the PhD program. I was like, I don't enjoy this at all, and it doesn't enjoy me back, like, this is just a lot of hard work, and I'm not as good at it as I want to be. And I realized I had a master's level of curiosity about that stuff, not a

PhD level of curiosity. And so when I left the graduate program, I had established myself well enough as a writer. And in the meantime, I had met the late grade Ralph Wiley, and he had walked me up to ESPN already and I was doing some stuff at them. So when the school thing fell apart, ESPN happened to call them, was like, look, we got some projects that we think you might be interested in working on. It's like two

thousand five, And so I started working with them. And that's so I used the school stuff actually all the time. It's about the thought process, like it was the thing I had when I got in the game. I didn't have access, right, like I'm not in the locker rooms. I can't talk about things on that level. So I had to find how can I talk about sports in a way that's fair to the people that I talked about, but also unique and worthwhile. And so I started putting

big stuff together. He explain little stuff. Let me ask you with that because I as an analyst, I struggled with that. I struggled with it in my day to day job because there are some people that I work with and you you know, you've worked with people as well, which at times the media, the media sometimes when the reporter talks or beat writer, the fans have a belief system that that beat writer has a good, bad, or indifferent some type of relationship with that player or the

organ with that player that they're writing about. Would you say, and I'm even learning nine times out of ten most of the time they don't your eyes popping? What was that? That was a yes? No? And I'm always but what I was going with this? As an analysts, I'm always interested as noticing that a lot of the some of the people that I work with, and I work with a number of people aren't They don't even go in the locker room. They will be talking about things. They

didn't go to that training camp. They hadn't talked to anybody. They may have had a five second conversation and looked at you know and say, hey, this team is winning and this is the reason why. So my question from that, what do you think? Where do you think media and the way media is reporting things. Now, where do you categorize? I think that it's always important to recognize, like what

is and is not your lame right. So for me, if somebody compares me to Stephen A. Smith, the one thing I always point out is is Steven A. Smith got thirty years and strikes on the ground that I don't have because my life just went in a different direction, you know what I mean, Like it just did. It

didn't go in that place. When Stephen A. Smith is telling you he heard something, it means something different that if I say I heard something, Like if I tell you I heard something, I mean I just heard you know what I mean, Like I'm just telling you, like yo, it's a wild stuff like Steven. You know, Stephen A. Smith tells you he heard something, you need to perk

up and you need to listen. Now. If I tell you, all right, I know something that I am telling you, like it ain't normally like that or whatever it is at this time, like I talking about like you got you're like, man, I was talking to somebody overheard something.

I was there hustling g and Steve told men you know, or somebody or at this point you get on TV long enough, the fish start jumping in the boat, like people start calling you to tell you stuff, you know, like like you don't have to go find him, no more to you start finding you. There's been but there's been times people have told me that, like told me information. I'm like, I think this is a trick. I think they're trying to see if I'm a snitch or not

knowing that happens. And I'm going, yeah, Dane, this is good. I wonder should I say something. I don't know if I should say something. Yeah, no, the answer is just go get go. What's two people tell you? Let's see. I'm still but I'm still stuck on the first person. I'd be like, I think this is a trick. I'm

too busy in my yea, Oh no, you're right. But then at that point it's like, yo, man, I know you told me this, but like three four people don't told you know what, like what people don't tell you you know, like if it's just too But it's like, look, man, somebody else told me to like you need to know like this out here now, there ain't really nothing I can do about it. I don't even get that far. I'm in the beginning, I was so like I would

get the information. I'll go on my room. I'm in a hotel room, and I don't know what should I do write. I'll write it down and I never interact with anybody else, and then I'm then I'm shook. So now now I'm at training camp. I'm at training camp. Do they know? I know that they know that's something's about to go down. He didn't speak to me. He knows I know. And then I leave and they go, Man, do Steve really enjoy yourself? He didn't hardly talk to anybody.

I'm walking around, I'm walking around with their secret, but it's I'm holding it like it's my secret. Yo. Reporting is terrified. Like the couple of times that I've like tried to break something, it's the most terrifying thing in the world because somebody's gonna say you're not telling the truth. Ye maybe they're lying, maybe they're not. Maybe the first you talk to line. Maybe it all goes all over the play. It's like there's a stomach for that particular

game that I acknowledge. I don't have. I don't you know what I'm saying, Like like I see guys who do that. But to your point thought about being on the ground, it's a whole lot of people, like because of my background, I'm a member of the media, but I don't. I don't look at it. It's like I'm a member of the tribe because I didn't come up with these cats like on the ground in the same way. Like there's a solidarity and that they kind of have

amongst each other. That yeah, right, there's no self criticism. There's not enough self criticism in the emphasis emphasizing thieves. But I think you don't. But I do think that we as a group don't don't check each other enough things unless it's time to, like, unless it's time to like step on somebody's brave with something. But we don't

do that enough. And so there are a lot of people who are in a position where you can cover the NFL only talking to owners and agents, right It's honestly, it's a lot of white people only talking to white people right there, talking to the white ages that they know. They're talking to the white executives that they know, the white business managers or whatever it is, and that's where

all their information gets traffic. And then they are never on the ground actually talking to players or the scouts or guys that are role position coaches, right, and and there guys that are the opposite. Right. Jay Blazer, for example, we talk every Yeah, his game is on the Like Jay Blaze is talking to dudes. He's talking to your strength coach. He's talking to the dudes, nanny and and the dog walker like he knows that he was walking that dog and he had a limp. He's on the ground.

Even Money said earlier, and I'm glad you brought up Like a lot of people don't realize Stephen, Ay Andy, I know you spent some time in North Carolina. Stephen, they went to win Salem State. He was working for went to Salem Chronicle. He was covering high school football, like he came up from them. And that's her struggle because North Carolina high school football, like he's but everywhere

he's gone, everywhere he's gone, he's cultivated sources. So to his point, like when he says something or was rooted in fat because he's come from the bottom. But the problem, they're also still on the ground twice a week. With all that work that he does, he's still showing his face in an arena twice a week. The part that that's struggling though, it really is, as you do all of that, you almost have to take a side you're

talking about, you know, white or black. It's like you either pro player or pro front office, right, And there's times like even with Stephen A, where he can talk about things and the players are not happy in the way he's talking, even though you know he's gonna talk about the sideways anyway. Yeah, I am as interesting because you're right, I don't think you necessarily have to have to have side, but I'm transparent by me. I got

a side. My side is pro player. My side is pro labor generally speaking, like it's always gonna be that in part because somebody has to balance this out. Now. I'm not gonna be unfair to management because I recognize everybody got a job. You know, it's a bunch of weird stuff. And I also get that from the perspective of media, especially with football, the players are in and

out so much. The front office guys are going to be there consistently, and so your game is probably gonna be to try to work with the guy that you know is gonna have a job for five years rather than just dude, there might be a salary cap casualty next year. It's peaky three of y'all. So you know, there's so many people. The quarterback don't want to talk to you. You gotta go through three people to get

the access to him. So it's not that I don't get how it goes, but I do see people and the way that they like root for the front office, and I'm just kind of like, no, I wouldn't raise like that. Man. I can't imagine doing the job like this and not recognizing that if there's somebody who needs us, it is the player more than the team. So that's being said. The money, you've been able to really find

your niche. You You've talked about it being the intellectual in sports, intersecting music, pop culture, socialty issues, race, all these things. How are you comfortable in your own skin? Why not? Like? The thing that honestly for me is that you were talking earlier about like being younger and

whether you felt out of place. I don't know if there's any like space that I'm in where I truly feel like I'm in that place, Like I always feel like there's some big difference between me and most people that are in a room, no matter what the room happens to be. But instead of feeling out of place in all those rooms, it just feels like like like, no matter what room I'm gonna be in, I'm gonna be on some I'm gonna be off on something that's

different than a lot of people. Or or you may just be getting there, or someone else in the room makes a look or a comment that lets you know if that you're not there yet. Yeah, but you know what, dope. But the thing for me is, if it's always gonna feel like that, then either I can trip out in every room I'm in, or I can trip out in

none of the rooms. And so like I'll tell you this, when I started with Around the Horn, not really with the ESPN, but when I started doing Around the Horn in the first time they called me, I made a decision. I was like, I got two choices. I can go about this like, man, I hope they called me back, or I can go about this as well. I got one chance, let's just have a ball, and I went

with number two and they wanted that back right. But like before, I came back to ESPN full time I had said that I wanted to work at places and established who I was and what I did so that whoever hired me next that could be hiring me to do what they did. You knew you were hiring me to be bits and once I did that, man, it's just like what you're gonna do? Be man? Okay, that happens. Yeah, but then get you on the principal's office a few times. And so my flip on, my flip, my flip on

a good at staying out of the prison. I'm so my flip on that was gonna be how you deal with the haters, because, like you said, when you show up and you'd be unapologetically you sometimes that pisses people. Also. Then on the flip side, how do you deal with the haters? There are so many people in this world that I like them and that I dislike for no good reason. I just don't like them. Life. It happens like not everybody's going like what I do. And we

all know this from a very simple example. What percentage of your home boys that rap actually made good rap music? M that's still your man. He just can't wrap. And so you don't think if you don't think I can wrap, whether I know you or not. Okay, cool, you don't think I can wrap. But but if I got people who do think I can wrap, then I'm gonna wrap for them. Yes, yes, man, you know, but I think but no. But I think. The other thing though, is

that those people don't know me. I'm not even a person to Steve, I said, you know this as press last as you realize when people screaming at you, they don't think you're a person. They just think that you do like to do in the video game, and they just think that I'm like a dude on the screen and you could throw something at the screen and they don't hit the person, right, They're not thinking about me

in that way like what I do on TV. I've had someone actually on Thursday night throw something at us on on and um, I might switch one off. Oh, I would imagine, so personally know it wasn't anything. It was bear on my suit. Oh so that's not that's someone who doesn't google the camera. The camera panned off because they hit me. And you know, when you get hit, it's a delay reous you know, like when you're a kid, you put your hand on the stove and it's it's like,

I think this is this is hot. That director does not get enough credit for their choice that day. Oh yeah, I saw it and they and I was like, it was like you look on your phone and you go, somebody stole money out of my account. Right, It's you're like you're registering it, but it's just not gathering. It was like it ain't raining. Whoa and it was camera and I just looked back like yo, and I know I'm growing because I was like, man, I hope this comes out of my suit. That was the first thing

I was thinking about it. Then the second thing was are they trying me today? You always have to have that self question. Yeah, that self question in my rest case, do they not know if I take this jacket off, I got this stretch underneath, and it's it's just it's amazing me personally. I I used to when I first started meeting, I struggled with the haters because they all tell you're dumb. Well to this day and I could joke about it. Oh, he can't speak. He's the worst

analysts NFL network has. Well one, Um, I can't speak. I'm lazy and that's why sometimes I get in trouble at the house because I curse, right, So I'm lazy with my tongue. But I know for a fact I'm not the worst. I know I'm not at least I know at least there's two other people worse than me. But you don't happen with me, though, And where I got lucky was that, like with with because Twitter and

all that has increased the access we give haters. And so I got on Twitter in two thousand nine, and I was doing local radio, and so as my following is building, I'm now like getting it into in spaces. So then I started doing around the horn. And what I noticed is when I started doing around before and the people who were didn't like me, they were a

lot meaner than they had been before. And I was saying the same stuff, and so I was like, oh, wait a minute, this is just about the fact that I'm on TV and this person screams, and whoever's on TV, that's what they do. And so that gradually builds it. So because I was becoming more famous and all of this stuff also as a thirty something year old man, so I was an adult, you know, as it was happening,

I was able to watch Animated Abundant in the clear. Oh, this has nothing to do with me personally, because doesn't have very much to do with my actual work. This is just what people do. And so there ain't nothing nobody gonna get on damn Internet and say to me and really have me taking it personally because I know these people don't actually know me, and I do know

I'm good at this. Like you might not like it, and that's cool, but it ain't never gonna be a day I can't get somebody to pay thee to talk. I may not be able to give to pay the millions of dollars, but there's always always gonna pay me to talk. That I will be just fine. Yah. We don't need a lot, just one. I don't don't even need a direct deposit. It's not yes, it's a direct deposit.

Like like Steve, you think about this. It's dudes in the league that coaches like way more than fans, right, like somebody that keep on getting the job and fans are like, I just don't understand it. And somebody's like, you don't understand he occupies two gaps at one time, right, and so like they don't take a fan vote before they put dudes on rosters, right, And so it's the people there. And I've always been lucky that like people

who made decisions have rocked with what I did. And so, you know, the public is a little fickle, but people know talent when they see challenging and they know who does jobs when they do jobs. And so people who don't like me, I focus on the people who do like We have a great time together. The people who do like it. Good, let's getting down do it? Hey, Gerard, why did you get that T shirt? Oh? Yes, I got it from cut to a podcast dot com where

we have exclusive merchandise. Shout out to our guys at seven or four shot. But yeah, you can go on, buy you a T shirt, subscribe to us wherever you listen to podcasts. With all the knowledge and everything you went through. Why are you in front of the camera versus being behind the camera, Well, right now, I'm like doing Game Theory is the first time I've had the chance, which is super dope. Yeah, like the dynamic of the

ESPN ain't a lot of people also producing their shows. Yeah, Game Theory ain't nothing going up without it being run past me. And it was right there. But it was a trip though, because when the first like the show has to be your show, in your vision, and I was like, I've been so used to doing show. There

was somebody else's vision. I didn't even have one, Like it took me months to figure out like what I wanted to show to look like to the point where now we just did our fourth episode and it's so clear to me now, Like when I hear something, I'm like, Nope, that don't sound like us. Nope, that's not you know,

the way that I want to go about it. I got like the corner office with impost didn't you and all that, and I do, but I could mean my thought is if this is the last television project I ever do, I'm fine, Like it's that it's that good of the gig, like I I don't know how what

else I would do. And then past that, I'm now at the point where I know enough to then make that move behind camera because the truth is man being all camera, there is a measure of like prostituting yourself like you are the product and that gets all you have to say it like that and you know, but

it's like different types, there's different types. You know, we're classy with it, but in the end, it doesn't always feel good when you are the product, Like when I be out there later a night on the street shoots and I want to go home, except you can't get done without me because I am a product, you know, Like I don't know. So now that you're sitting in at what gap do you see that you field with

game theory? So what I think has happened with game theory is and I tell this story that when they called me to do the show, I looked at the deck and it was a very light, straight ahead comedy sort of thing that was just gonna be about sports, and that's not me, Like I'm funny, but I'm not a comedian. And so I looked at the deck and I told him, I said, look around, this deck doesn't work for me. But I am literally the only person who could host this show and didn't have a chance

to be successful. And my explanation was, you can't just put somebody up telling jokes about sports. People take this stuff seriously, right, like like they like they don't people get forced yes, like they needed they need somebody whose opinion they respect up there, not somebody they think it's funny. Okay, So once you find that person, you need somebody that can drive the content that you want to do. And I was like, I don't see anybody else in this space that can do it for you that way. But

I made it clear, we can't. We can't try to make me into a comedian, right. What we need to do is take what I do and figure out how to maybe make it funnier and bring it to life. But we can't make me into a comedian. So what we got now is we found a good, comfortable space where there are big issues in sports. And I don't mean like big like controversial. I just mean big, like the scope of them is Lord. So our first episode

was about Coach K's legacy. The second I watched man, I watched the Coach Coach K one and at first I was like, oh, you're like, where is this coming from and why and how? And then obviously doing your researchers, like I went to North Carolina right so and and I can understand it. But also the clips in which how you categorize saying America's team, and how you put it against Duke versus George Town and how the announcers are talking and it's so crazy. But yet things like

that happened every single day. They was happening in the eighties. It's happening in where we'll see it, and we see it now. Less is more in football, be quarterback play, right, exactly what we'll we'll talk about limiting someone's throwing but yet paying them forty five million dollars. Right, And and we're talking about, um, how a guy processes and how a guy doesn't process and how uh the key word? And it's funny as you know, doing television and talking

about and talking. I've told them the lingo of athletic and high motor and what those code words are. Right, have you ever heard of at the the the high motor guy, Like the high motor guy is not a black guy, right? Right. It's funny because the highest motor guy that I been me and you could think of off the top of my head was a black dude exactly a high angry motor. Right. But yet the the defensive player who has a high motor he has technique, but he lacks athleticism. So he has a ton of energy.

High motor guy that brings the consistency and then, but the code word for a black guy is mobility, mobile and strong. Right that that that's it. Intellect is never thrown in there, right, Intellect is never thrown in there, especially, I feel like to some degree, as you know black athletes and then you if you're an athlete, which I hear a lot of times, and for myself is I sat on it, which is athletes are dumb. People who

are in sports are dumb. And most of my career I kind of play to that narrative, right, the angry guy. And then I started realizing, like, no, I can't. I am actually pretty smart, and I need to stop playing into that narrative because now they're starting to write articles and trying in the narrative and my behavior is giving them that narrative to go, yeah, he is dumb. He he is a hot hair without any intellect. He doesn't think. And and so trying to change that narrative and go

through it for for for athletes is tough. But then you bring it back full circles, your snips and how you put piece that together, it's bananas to me. Indeed, hold up, we come behind it with a real live black history. Yes, bro, that was say that was real and those people were not actors, the people those were raw reactions. Yeah, yeah, those are real reactions. Here's what here's why I thought it was not it was it wasn't real. My man that said Nashburn that he he

in high school with jam it was real. Yeah, But at first I was kind of like, yeah, now get you know Jabal from up here, Jabal Harlow, I'm talking about the guy who was tall. That was just that was just pure coincidence. Like the thing about Flint that was like all that stuff that we had there. We just brought people in and they walked through and like so for me, you asked what space and were feeling?

Ain't nobody else doing this right? Like I've done the high minded ideas that I always have, but I've also always been out here kicking it with this stuff that I'm doing. And so we're gonna take bigger things and bring them the eye level where people can understand, because it's not a matter of showing you how smart I am. Nobody cares about that. They care about what that spart can do for So let's take these smart ideas, let's bring them right to people, and let's kick it and

have fun. Like we got raw on our tests to do a video about a fake commercial about treasury bonds as a comparison to all the crypto advertisements. Like that's the kind of stuff that we make it happen. Right now. What I love about is basically with the with the comedy, you basically are saying, hey, if it's too much comedy,

it's gonna be surface. But if you allow me to, yes, stow my spin on it and and look at it, you start to you start to get to the core, the root and that and that's really the show is. It's about the it's no longer surfacing, it's it's straight to the core and the root of sports. And also how how sports looks at everyone. It's the it's the sports is the microcosm, right of the real life issues.

So you bring into life the life issues. And like you're talking about, what is the nuance in the language in black athlete versus white athlete. You can take that same thing out and you put it in corporate America, you can put in education, and you can put it in whatever else. And now we're have you having higher level conversation that's rooted from sports and the polarization of sports. But you can take it and talk about that same

stuff in any place in life. The only problem is that a lot of sports people and the sponsors they want to check out, and I think that hard. They don't want to really do that much work. Intellectually. They want to be able to have a beer, eat a hot dog, and watch their team play. They don't want to hear about all the other stuff. And sometimes they don't really care what physical uh setbacks individuals have. If you're on the playing field, you're healthy, play, don't nobody

want to hear about it. Correct, and so over here though, we got the space to get to the other stuff. But also, and I think it's part as important. I don't blame people. It's sometimes they don't feel like the heavy stuff, right, get it? And so when you give them that stuff, you just gotta be really good at you know what I mean, Like it doesn't matter. We gotta figure out how to get the points across that we want to. But people are gonna watch that show.

If it's fun, it's a good time, they'll watch it. Right. If they don't make them feel good, they're not gonna watch it. So they're coming for the emotional time. Yeah, what's wrong with sports what's wrong with sports media? There? I think the thing with sports media is, to be fair to them, is it is a demand driven business. In part where I think I think most media entities believe they are giving fans the coverage that they want.

They've done research, they figured this. They think they're giving fans the coverage that they want. Um. I think part of what's happened is the revenue models are so messed up for these publications that they don't have the money

to cover sports properly like they used to. Like it's not as many people who are on the ground with the team, is not as many people who can write like the features and the enterprise stories, and the people who do write them can't give them the care and dedication they deserve because there's just not the money to pay people to do all of those things. You know, Like there's there's a lot of like profit minded stuff

that's a problem with sports media. But I think what's good about sports media we have at this point maybe like the smartest group of sports writers that we've ever had, the most knowledgeable, and they know more things about the world because when you're a sports writer, and you get any young, the world you know is the locker room. The world you know is the field. You don't have a chance Like I got lucky. I got to spend

my early twenty's studying all this stuff. These guys were studying the game, right, so I learned from them about the game. But when it's time to make bigger connections, it's not always as easy for them because they have to dedicate their lives to do with something, you know,

something much different than that. But now I think people are coming in with broader knowledge, and if they try to, they'll know the players better, they'll know all this other stuff there because they should be able to incorporate so much more into their coverage. But the thing that's most wrong, I guess always is going to be a lack of respect for the humanity of the players. Is the hardest

thing for media to do is to see players as people. Yeah, and then they get offended when the players start to look at the media. Was that media does That also resonate with fans too, because it almost goes back to your port. Yeah, that's the part that you said, how do you how do you address the guy who says keep the keep those societal debates out of my sports.

How do you deal with that person too? I mean that person that person generally, um, they're buying a ticket, right when sometimes the person who's banging aloud as drum is buying the chief ticket and the person who may disagree with it but probably is not gonna say anything. It's a huge sponsor, and they will have those meetings after the season. They will talk to the owners and kind of say or the organization like, you know, we're really about all lives from there and we like it.

But me, you know, well we got we got this to do. But now you deal to people you can't deal with, Like That's the one thing about it is sometimes people are not gonna like what you're saying. That's fine, right, you you work with the people that you can work with. But I just I would just like from my colleagues, respecting the people they covered is so much more important. Like I always tell the story, Uh I think it was.

Rick Riley once wrote to column of Sports Illustrated, and it was about all the players in the locker room that he said, like to show off the penises, right, Like he said, they were so proud of them and died. I died, And I remember I was reading the story and he gave an example of one player, and I think I won't name him because I cant remember exactly

appreciate that. Yeah, it's a Hall of Famer. And the dude apparently turned around at his locker and stood up and put his foot on a stoop and let his towel drop and then answer the questions. I read the story and I realized, you have no idea what's going on here. This dude is tired of y'all trying to

look at it on the sneak. And he finally said, fine, fowl, you want to see it, bo, this is what it is, because Steve, you know them dudes that's walking around in the locker room looking at these cats like a little weird about all that stuff that's not respecting to people that you cover. And the resentments that players have towards media is often justified because it's not about what you write, it's about how you treat them in in writing an article.

And and I know you got to go soon, but one of the interesting things that I've found out, and even doing media myself, how many people, how many media guys are walking up to me asking me to as an analyst, as another media guy, and during an interview with me to give them the research and doing their job.

I'm kind of like I want now I'm saying, I'm only to do jobs and then alshow during interview with someone who has done their research, if they have not done their research, catch get me when you've done your research, so you don't spend extra extra time out of my day, out of my calendar, catching you up on something that you get, you feed your family with. You supposed to already know this stuff, You feed your family with this,

and you're asking me to do your job. I need to get some of that stipend right being a bear. So man, we appreciate your time. Bro, We're gonna have to reciprocate this. Bro, You're funny as hell. Doc, I'm trying to keep up a job. Man. Look, I'm still trying to image somebody for a beer on you like it was it was it was, Hey, I conducted myself. I'm conducted myself with I just I mean, I'm proud of you for doing that, but to assume that that was what you were going to do is bo Hey

bo this, this is Joe. So I wasn't there, so as soon as it happened, he stood up and his jacket started coming off. They cut to Canberra four and then everybody. Everybody's texting me like, oh, I don't know what's about to happen, but he was a hot man. I took my jacket off actually to see how bad it was. I did not take it off to jump in the crap. That's what you took it off, like, Steve, I think of you like I think a ghost face, right,

like how ghost faces really funny? But I want to make sure that he was trying to be funny before I last s. We all want the same page, like, okay, that was atend to kid joke. I don't want to expect you. I just thought this is funny. I just want to keep it on the level. I was like, oh, he's really joking everything. I was like, here cool, I laughed. Temperature checker check. I'll tell you this man the COVID And also, you know, my family at home really have

made have said some things to me. Let me I'll say this. Have you ever took an emotional ass whooping? Yeah? Yeah, that's what I'm getting at the house well deserved right having conversations and asking questions and allowing them to be truthful. And I could tell you being a being an athlete, any kind of any kind of success creates an ego,

and then that ego you hate to do it. But if you want to grow and improve, taking and getting a pole of which you know is gonna happen, which is you know how many times I've been married my wife twent two years, bro four kids. You know how many times you stepped on the emotional land mine or you screw something up, But sitting down asking it's tough, right, and and but yet it's healthy. But also it's like, you know what, I can hear what they say, and I can walk away upset and piste off and mad,

or I can change it. Because ultimately, when you get married, when you're in a relationship, not you yet, but when you get there, the whole purposes you. You don't want to die along. You don't want to be sitting in your rocketing chair, drinking whatever you're drinking, puffing on whatever you're puffing on, by yourself at the remainder, the remainding days of your life. You want to do it with someone that at the end of the day, and I know this probably isn't man somebody you fox with, and

my wife is that person. We're different. We're literally different. We are a total opposite. I'm Carmel, She's she's Vanilla. Right. I grew up in l a and the inner City and she grew up in Utah. So we're so totally different. That's sitting there, and that different perspective sometimes makes such of the greatest conversations and and and so it's been awesome and I want to have that as I continue to get older, to where when when life can lately

slows down, we can look backwards and laugh. But I gotta earn their trust to say, hey, that is worth rehashing and going backwards on some of the things that he has said or done um intentionally, unintentionally, conscious, unconsciously, and is he is he want to hear. And That's what I've been going through. And so I it's been good and it's bad. But at the end of it, you know, I get to be myself. And this this podcast and some of other stuff I'm doing the media,

is I'm being myself? Yeah. Every so often I'll catch somebody catch catch a little fire when you throw something on man, I'm gonna give you a little look now, but ultimately manness just learning myself, you know, and and and and breaking down my own um my own safeguards, right and just kind of showing people I am goofy,

I am silly, and this is who I am. I respect you on that man like like on it as a public is spelled like I mean, necessarily like that all we all got to look back at who we are sometimes, you know, And that's because that's what I

mean to get better at this. Like, one of the things I've learned about athletes in my media travels that's been interesting is self improvement or just generally like the willingness to improve and to hear hard things is like I think, I think I find for athletes generally something

they're better at than my other colleagues. But it's still a hall ball game when it's like, now I'm gonna take this to me, not this thing I'm doing, but this person I am these things right and as a would you win in the end, You always do if you stay with it long enough, you win. And yes, yeah, yeah, it's a little whack at the beginning, well, appreciate your dog. Thank you man. You guys, I'm going with you too. You are a unique person, you are well worth it,

you are competent, and most of all, your lovable. I'm Steve Smith Singer, I'm Gerard Little John and this just cut to It. Cut to It with Steve Smith Singer. That Is Me is a production of Cut to It LLC, Balto Creative Media, The Black Effect and I Heart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

your favorite shows from Cut to It. Executive producer Steve Smith, Singer, co host Gerard Little John, talent in booking manager Joe Fusci, social media teamer Wesley Robinson and John show from Balto Creative Media. Cut to It is produced by Brian Baltaschevitch and Meredith Carter, with production assistance by Alex Lebrek, Production Coordinator Taylor Robinson. Theme music by Alex Johnson, Lyrics and vocals by Anthony Hamilton. You ain't heard about it, then

we're about to let you know. It's all there is, nons