Podcast Unite Our Voices. This is Curtain, a podcast where we expose the disappearances of Aboriginal people across this country. Shining a light on the darkest parts of our justice system. We ask who are the victims?
I'm Amy mcquaire and I'm Martin Hodgson, Senior advocate at the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased people and includes distressing content that may upset some listeners. Welcome to Season two, Episode nine of Curtain the podcast. This week, we're going to discuss the case we've spoken about previously, and that's the case of Constance May wat Show, whose in quest we've
previously reported on. Two weeks ago in Brisbane, the coronial in quest findings were finally handed down by the state coroner and my co host Amy maguire was there that day. Amy, I was just wondering if you can tell the audience what it was like when you were there and what the reaction was to the findings, which we will discuss shortly.
Yeah, so this had been seven long years of waiting for answers as to what had happened to Constance naywatch her and just for our listener's knowledge. Constance had been disappeared in November twenty seventeen, so November twenty seventeen was the last time anyone had heard from her, the last time there was any proof of life. And in the months following November twenty seventeen, her family, who were from Sherburg, had become increasingly worried and they'd actually gone down to
Brisbane in order to search for her. So two of her brothers, part of her large extended family, had gone down and inquiring about her whereabouts in Brisbane because that's
where they knew that she was staying. And they went around to specifically the suburb of Kangaroo Point, West End and Roma Street, which are all suburbs and inner city Brisbane, and when they couldn't find her, they grew even more worried, and they knew that this was deeply out of character for Constance to disappear and not tell her family where she was or not come back to Sherburg, so they actually filed them as in person's report after that, and
there's no really follow up on the police end until ten months later when her remains were found in really horrific and brutal circumstances at the base of cliffs in Kangaroo Point, which is for our listeners benefit, a very affluent suburb in Brisbane now found by a cliff where it's a very busy area where on Saturday's children learn how to rock climb, meet us away and where passes by passed by frequently, so it's quite a busy area. And Constance was actually found two minutes from the unit
in which she'd been staying. Since then, there had been no charges laid in relation to her murder. The police had announced a reward of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for any information to do with her murder, so they'd very explicitly called it a murder. And yet five years later the family were not at the steps of the Supreme Court, were actually in the Coroner's court for
a coronial inquest into her death and disappearance. And what happened was the family had all come down again from Sherberg on June sixth and they packed out the courtroom. So it's quite a long journey for them to make. Two and a half hours they've packed out the courtroom and basically heard the Coroner's finding. Deputy State Coroner Stephanie
Gallagher deliver her finding within six minutes. I mean, I don't even know if you can call it a finding, because the coroner didn't really deliver anything even close to justice. She basically left it open and said that Constance's cause of death would remain unknown, and even in relation to that, she said that there was a possibility that Constance died
from some other unknown caused. She also said the identity of the person's responsible for interfering with Constance's body was also unknown based on the evidence she had heard, and so it really felt like with an absence of evidence
came an absence of a perpetrator. So, I mean, I think the family felt incredibly traumatized from hearing after seven years that sort of finding delivered within six minutes, and there were cries of no justice, no justice in the public gallery, and then the family had moved shortly after outside the courthouse where they gave a press conference. So
it was a severe feeling of let down. And yet I think the families knew that there probably wasn't much hope in this inquest process, which is quite the devastating thing because they'd actually sat on it for a week in September twenty twenty two, and even in sitting in that in that process, there weren't a lot of answers that came out.
So just to re establish the findings of the coroner were that the precise circumstances of the death or unknow. The place of death is listed as unknown, the cause of death is listed as unknown, and the date of death is listed as unknown. Between the twenty seventh of November twenty seventeen, which is when Constance was last seen, and tenth of September twenty eighteen, so nearly a year later is the time of death and when it could
have taken place. But even despite the lack of a proper police investigation, there is still plenty of evidence to point to the people who were involved and gave the coroner a lot to work with, which made this finding even more ridiculous. So we're just going to go back through some of those details and a warning to listeners
that there is confronting commentary in this process. As we've previously explained, Constance's body was found in a bag that was black and white, described as urban style, as Amy said in Kangaroo Point, near a cliff. Now, one of the key pieces of evidence was that the bag had pink paint splattered on the top sides of it, and there was a pink tube with a white lid on it as well. The Queensland Police Service located an open bottle of pink paint in the unit where Constance was
last seen at the apartment blocks in Kangaroo Point. That paint was seized and tested and it matched the color of pink paint that was located on the bag and on items inside the bag. So to suggest that there wasn't direct evidence that linked Constance to a certain location prior to her death was of course absurd. There was also curtains found alongside constance remains, and those two were a direct match for curtains that were found hanging in the kitchen in that same unit at the River Terrace
unit complex. And not only that, but the man who was living in that apartment confirmed that the curtains appeared to be from the unit. So this is also a man who was one of the last people to see Constance alive, and that just begins some of the evidence that places Constance with these three men that we will speak of in this episode. There was also a white floral pillowcase that matched the same pattern as a sheet
located both in the unit and with Constance's remains. Amy, based on just some of that evidence, what else to these three men that we're speaking of to Constance's disappearance?
Yeah, as well as that during the coronial inquest, there are a number of people who also had their identity and their evidence suppressed by the coroner. But there are things that are still on the public record, And what is known is that, as you've pointed out, is that Constance was staying in a unit that was effectively a two minute walk from where she was found. Her remains were actually found by one of those non Indigenous men who lived in that same apartment, and he knew Constance
and was also the last to see her alive. And so we can't discuss his identity, and we can't discuss some of the evidence. But I think one of the things that shook the family at the outset, and which was known at the outset by the police and in the media, was that it seemed like a really unbelievable coincidence that the person to find her remains would also
be one of the last to see her alive. But yes, there was these really shocking moments within the inquest where, for example, one of the men whose name was Dallas Bandman and who didn't have his evidence suppressed, actually agreed that yes, that was the curtain and that was the bag that he believed he gave to Sam and Constance when he supposedly last saw them. The other thing to point out is that another one of the men who was named Sam's subject and also gave evidence that the
inquest had actually been Constance's ex partner. And in the days leading up to constance disappearing, which were only four days so Constants had just been released from a very short term of imprisonment at the Brisbane Correctional Center. She had been heavily surveiled by police when she had been released in those four days, but she'd also seen a lot of her friends and a lot of her family in Brisbane, and many witnesses had reported that she had
bruises on her body. Her ex partner had actually seen her and said that she had complained that Sam Subject was stalking her, and so people were really concerned when they didn't see her after November twenty seventh or twenty eighth, you know that this was really uncharacteristic, that something may have happened to her. And when we were sitting in the inquest, this evidence came out connecting where Constance was
found to this particular unit. There was evidence suggesting foul play, and yet there was also this really strange lack of evidence which didn't fit the gravity of the situation. You know, the way Constance was found, the fact that she had been brutally murdered, and that really came out in the inquest finding by the coroner when she claimed that she left it open for something else to have happened to
cause Constance's death. And this came up when the forensic pathologist gave evidence the pathologists who had conducted an autopsy on Constance, and the coroner had actually questioned the forensic pathologist about whether injuries or certain injuries could have been
perpetrated in relation to hanging. So underlying this really you know, brutal process was this assumption again which we've seen with many cases of disappeared Aboriginal women, is that they've somehow caused their own death, and that to me was absolutely shocking. So I think there was evidence and yet there also seemed to be a lack of evidence. And the other thing I would point out as well is that during the inquest, as I previously said, the police were first
looking at Constance's death as a murder. During the inquest, the lead investigator at Dad and Park's CIB, which had carriage of the investigation, had basically said he didn't consider it a homicide investigation. It was still just a suspicious death.
And he was questioned quite a couple of times by Constance's children's legal representative about how that even made sense, how that was even logical, and he can still continued to say we had no evidence to suggest a homicide, and that to me was again unbelievable given the gravity of what had obviously happened to Constance, and also reperpetrated a lot of hurt and pain on her family who had to sit through this evidence and could see that this is obviously foul play and yet to have their
own questions repeatedly ignored by the investigators. MANA, did you want to add to that in relation to the autopsy?
I think most troubling to me about the suggestion that, or even the underlying implication that suicide could have been a cause of death is absurd when you know and remember that Constance's body was found as the coroner was told by doctor Reid, the forensic pathologist, that her body had been dismembered and dismantled, and he said particularly that a reasonable degree of care had been exercised to disarticulate the limbs. Now, to be really blunt about it, how
can a person possibly commit suicide? And the suggestion was potentially by hanging. It really is absurd. And given that the confronting nature of how Constance was found and what had been done to her body, it was very clear that this was not just a murder, but something that had been done very very deliberately and potentially, as doctor Reed explained, by someone who wasn't in a rush and
knew what they were doing. This should really worry not just anyone who cares about Constance, but anyone in the public. Where you have a coroner hearing this evidence from an expert in their field and then opining about other theories that really do not fit the evidence. And then there
was something else that points to foul play. The unit at the River Terrace Complex in Kangaroo Point was set on fire and a witness at the inquest, and I'll just give his first name, Cameron told him that Dallas had admitted to him that he'd set his own unit on fire because Sam, that's Constance's ex partner, had told him to do so. Another witness also suggested that Dallas
had set his unit on fire. And given that there was substantial evidence like the curtains, the floral bed sheets and pillow case, the pink paint, who knows what else was there that the police were yet to find. And then that unit is burnt to the ground. Again, none of this points to the fact that Constance had harmed herself, and everything points to the fact that these men were
involved in Constance's disappearance. And on the day it is believed that Constance was murdered, Dallas banman had actually called Triple zero from that unit and he he said to the operator and I quote, some guy pushed his way into our house and won't let us leave. He's robbing us and bashing us. A Bosnian looking dude named Sam,
again referring to Constance's ex partner. So now you also have this man Sam, who is seen with Constance by eyewitnesses, who is seen by the other men at the unit with Constance, who then returns the next day to that unit where there is endless forensic evidence linking that unit back to Constance's body, and this guy is breaking in and trying to rob and bash the people who live
in that unit. This surely points to the fact that this gentleman was absolutely involved, and yet there is nothing that comes out of this inquest that he was ever subjected to much of a police investigation at all. Again, as I said before, how the broader public read any of this and aren't concerned that a potential killer is
just allowed to walk free. How police, politicians, and especially the coroner themselves knows this information and yet doesn't recommend anything, simply states unknown, unknown, undetermined, and displays a lack of care towards the family knowing all of this evidence. That is simply indescribable. And I think that takes us to what we wish to discuss, which is do these coronial in quests serve a purpose at all for Aboriginal interrestraight islander families. I mean, you were there on that day
when the findings were handed down. Do you think this inquest actually harmed the family.
More, I think it shouldn't have even got into an inquest at this point because I think what has happened is that there's this degree of finality to the proceedings, and also the inquest sort of justifies itself, if that makes sense. It didn't seem to be focused towards finding the truth of what had happened to Constance, even though that was in the terms of reference. It seemed to
be almost like a ticker box exercise. And one of the really disturbing things to come out of the inquest is that the coroner had determined that the police investigation itself was not something that she was going to critique or look into or examine. So there's very fundamental question is that the family had around why haven't people been charged in the relation to the murder of Constance? Was not answered because the police investigation was not part of
the inquest. And I've sat through a number of these inquests, I've never sat through an inquest like this in which no police officers have really been called to give answers in relation to that. Usually you have a few officers who are witnesses. In this case, there was only one. The lead investigator at Dunda Park's CIB and the police
officer who was there to find Constance's remains. There was no testimony given by a missing person's unit about what they had done when Constance was disappeared in those ten months, and there was no testimony given by the state homicide squad about why they had left the investigation effectively nearly a year after Constance was found and what their role is, why they didn't take over carriage of this investigation at
every stage it was at Dunham Park's CIB. No questions about whether there would be extra resources if homicide had taken over, but at every point they just had a level two roll and then effectively disengaged from the investigation within a year. So there were no questions raised about how we actually got to this point where we're at an inquest or not at the Supreme Court, and that
was something that was questioned by the families. And I think the other thing that emerged in the coronial processes was again another disappearing of Constance and her family had done so much in order to make sure Constance and who she was was remembered. They brought across from Sherburg to the courthouse, they brought a wreath of red and black and yellow flowers, they brought pictures how they wanted people to remember contestants, and the very first day of
the inquest her children. So she had ten children, and she had four who were now adults or on the cusp of adulthood, who gave a really moving letter address to their mother and remembering everything that she used to do with them, about how she used to do hug and kissed them, and how she would take them to the park and they'd play on swings and they'd throw boomerangues, and they just remembered all of these things, and yet they felt they'd been clearly denied that time that they
could have spent knowing their mother as they grew up. And that really came out of the inquest the other day when a number of her children were there. And it's really hard to talk about these things because of what has happened to concerts, for what happened afterwards, and the fact that the coroner seemed very comfortable in delivering nothing for the families and was almost even aggravated when
the families contested her own finding. And so I just don't believe these inquests are there to provide answers for families, especially in cases of disappeared Aboriginal women and there, as our listeners would know, there's been a number of inquests recently in Queensland, but all across the country in which families have not even close to receiving any form of
justice through the coronial process. MNA just hearing that, what would you take from particularly this in quest in relation to these cases, are they even the right place to be looking for truth or any sort of accountability.
Well, I think it's clear from the inquests just that we've covered in this podcast that not one has delivered any answers or the truth for a family. They haven't been served. There's been no charges laid as a result, despite extraordinary amounts of evidence put before the coroner's court.
And I think that's part of what troubles family so much, is that despite terrible police investigations, there is an extraordinary amount of evidence against individuals involved in the murders of Aboriginal women and children, and yet there are no charges. And this happens in the backdrop of a huge amount of gender based violence in this country, where tens and
tens of women are being murdered every year. At the start of the year, there was the disappearance of Samantha Murphy in Victoria and her body has sadly not yet been recovered, and yet a man has been charged with her murder, and his charges are based on the fact that the police hypothesized that he killed her in the Mount Clear area. Well, in Constance's case, you don't have
to hypothesize. You have direct evidence, the pink paint, the curtains, the pillow case linking that unit directly to these three men. You have eyewitnesses who see the ex partner with Constance the day leading up to her death and the day most likely of her death. You have the fact that the unit was set on fire where that evidence was found. You have the fact that a forensic pathologist explained that someone had gone to great lengths to dismantle and dismember
her body. This is a brutal killing. The fact that suicide even becomes a suggestion is offensive and I really think it goes back to what the police are doing and what the media demand of the police. Again, in Victoria, with the disappearance of Samantha Murphy, we've seen hundreds of police officers deployed. We've seen the use of triangulation to
her Apple watch and mobile phone. We've seen the dog squad, mounted branch, air wing branch, the Victorian State Emergency Services Parks Victoria, the Country Fire Authority, and even the terrorism squad involved in trying to solve this case as they should and to locate her body. And yet, for instance, may watch you, none of that is done. Nothing, And I think this just proves what an absolute waste of
time these coronial inquests are. And worse than that is that a coronial in quest puts a full stop at the end, having given no answers to the family, having presented nothing by the coroner about who Constance was, despite her family, her children going to great lengths to tell the coroner who Constance was, despite all the evidence, a full stop is put and most likely these men will
remain free and never face the consequences of what they've done. Meanwhile, hundreds of police are deployed for a white woman in Victoria, and that's the state of affairs, and you can't argue with that. And so I really think now it is on the media who hear this to ask the questions of the police to ask the questions of the coroner's office to hold these people in positions of power to account. Otherwise the media is just simply exposing their own racism.
Thousands of column inches have been dedicated to other women who are missing and murdered in this country, and very few, if any, other than the work of Amy are ever dedicated to the aborige in Lentora Strait island of women and children. And until that changes, there just won't be the pressure on police to provide the truth that these families deserve and the justice that should be brought against these men. This episode was brought to you by black
Cast and produced by Clint Curtis. For more you can visit us at www dot Curtainthepodcast dot com, follow us on Twitter at Impertin Podcast, and help to support our work at patreon dot com. Backslash Burton Podcast