Good.
Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty verdicts against all three defendants.
It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just absolutely really.
Put his blood on his clothing the day after the alleged a toime.
On a shallow mud bank and it fits through a river.
Basically, I think most of the people are used to me are good people.
I think a really important question we need to ask is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent.
This is Kurtain, a podcast where we pulled back the blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm Amy Maguire and.
I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners.
Welcome to Curtain the podcast. For long time listeners of the show. Ware of the case of Rodney Reid, an African American man on death row in Texas for a crime he didn't commit. You would have heard us over the years discuss the similarities between Kevin Henry's case and Rodney's, the overwhelming evidence in favor of Rodney's innocence, and the evidence suggesting very strongly that the victim in Rodney's case, Stacy Stitz, was murdered by her then fiance, a police officer,
Jimmy Fanell. Rodney faces execution in just a few weeks time, but there's been a major breakthrough. Psychologist and international TV star doctor Phil has come on board and dedicated two episodes of his show to forensically analyze Rodney his case, interviewing Rodney, bringing in new experts and looking at the evidence. He's not only done that, he's also convinced himself that
Rodney is an innocent man. But before we get into discussing more of that, Rodney Reed's brother, Roderick has recorded this message, especially for kurtin the podcast listeners.
My name is roder Reed. I'm a brother of Rodney Reed, an innocent man on death role, accused of capital murder, eccuse of murdering Stacey states when all the evidence showed that Jimmy Fill all the forensic evidence show that Jimmy fer Now committed this crime. We're here today to talk a little bit about my brother's case, and what I would like to say is that day one, we've always known that my brother's innocent. We've always known about the
consensual relationship. We've always known about the non testing of the murder weapon, about the DNA on the very cans. We've known these things since nineteen ninety eight. Right now we have somebody that's saying what we've been saying for all those years, and it seems to be catching and trending now. And we thank God for that because my mom said in the very beginning of this case that you may try to do what you're gonna do to my son, but at the end of it, the whole
world will know. The whole world will know what you're trying to do to my son. And we thank God for that. And not only do we thank God for that, we think doctor Phil for that because he has that voice that is advocating for my brother and showing his innocence. So I encourage people to go to the Doctor Field show, look at it, not just today but tomorrow's well. Listen to all the evidence that he presents, Listen to his own personal his own medical examiner, Listen to it, and
come up to that with your own conclusion. Don't let doctor Phild just influence you. Don't let the Red family influence you, don't let the members of the Stacey Sites family that believe that writing is in its influence. You do your own research, come over with your own conclusion. And that's what I challenge everybody out there to do.
Right now, we're doing a tour and what you can do right now to help us is to contact Governor Red Gabbott, the Bard Department paroles to the Bastrop County District Attorney Brian Gertz, write letters, call their phone through it over and over again until they get tired of them ringing, or til that machine run out of backery, whatever whatever comes first. But do these things so we can get justice, not just for Rodney, but for Safety's Sites as well, because that affects the least of us,
affects the rest of us. And so we encourage you to do these things. And you can go to our website if you want to help us continue with this journey that we're doing to save Rodney's life. Hey, go to our website. We have PayPal, we have a venmo, we have fundraiser, we have many ways that you can support. Right now, we're not doing T shirts because we're on the road, but we will pick up and continue to do them later. So if you want to help us, that's the way to help the family. That's the way
to help Rodney. That's the way to get truth. That's the way that we can bring justice out the streets and put it back into the courtroom. By NY's names in the life, you thank you everybody for there.
So that was Roderick Reed, who was Rodney Reid's brother, and he sent us that message from America where the family, the Reed family are actively fighting the scheduled educ execution of Rodney Reid, which is currently scheduled for later in November.
And many of you who have been following this podcast would know about mister Reed's case because we really started our investigation into Kevin Henry through Rodney Reed, and that was largely based on the fact that Martin Hodgson, my co host, has actually been assisting Rodney for the past decade. And it's really interesting because a lot of the lessons that Martin has taken from working with cases like Rodney's and so many others all over the world. He's used
and applied in relation to reinvestigating Kevin's case. So it's really interesting. We're at a stage currently where there is a schedule execution, but there's actually been some movement over just the past few days in relation to Rodney Reid's case, and it actually affects the entire movement around wrongful convictions and exonerations and innocence projects. And that's the advocacy of a very famous television host, doctor Phil who many of
you may know episodes of his program. He's been putting out the facts around Rodney Reid and particularly around his innocence. So we're going to dedicate the program today to this case because it really is a matter of lafe and death and it's approaching really fast. The family are asking for new forensic evidence to be put into court, but particularly for a stay of execution. So I just wanted to start mid and by asking, you know, you've been involved in this case for a decade, how would you
define where it currently sists? And particularly over the past a couple of days, seeing the movement around the media and greater public pressure, how does that feel for you, particularly given that over the past decade there may have not been that level of attention that there should have been.
Yeah, it's definitely been an eventful couple of days. I think the one word to describe the last ten years and more than twenty for Rodney and his family is frustration. Because he's always maintained his innocence. The evidence has always been there that he is innocent, and yet time after time courts have refused to look at that evidence, and new evidence will come in that shows even more conclusively that Rodney couldn't have committed the crime, whether that be
new forensic evidence DNA. Quite a number of witnesses as attest to Rodney's alibi implicate the real killer, who was Stacy's fiance, but none of that has ever seemed to matter. The truth hasn't seen matter at all, and appeals court other appeals court has failed to do anything. And Rodney's had a number of staid executions where he's come very
close to being executed. And in the last few months we've really been counting down the days and it seemed like nothing was going to stop Rodney's execution despite his clear innocence, and then everything has turned on its head. I think not only has doctor philm used his program to highlight the case. He's used his consumer vable resources to really expose the truth based purely on the evidence. He's brought in new forensic scientists, forensic pathologists, He's used
his own experience as a psychologist. He sat down and interviewed Rodney for over an hour. And I think when someone with such a high profile comes on board and not only says to people, have a look at this, but really, what doctor Phil has done has exposed the very frustration that everyone else has felt and done it in a very methodical way by detailing just how much evidence there is for Rodney to show that he is innocent.
Certainly, it does feel like the momentum has.
Completely swung from counting that down the days till Texas would get kill an innocent man, to now feeling like they really is genuine hope for Rodney and that he will fight to see another day.
Mardam, I feel like, you know, just doing Kevin's case and knowing that you know Kevin's voice can't be heard until he gets out, and the fact that doctor Phil has actually gone in and interviewed Rodney, just from your knowledge of Rodney, because I know you have gotten to
know him quite well over the years. Do you think that that that has played a part potentially in you know, him being able to have a voice and him being able to have that broadcast in a national and even an international way, And particularly how would do you think it would help him, particularly as as he awaits you know, scheduled execution, but also potentially a stay of execution. Yeah.
I think one thing you can say about Rodney and his entire family is that they've always believed not only in his innocence, but the fact that the truth would come out. And so often that in many cases seems to be blind optimism, but the family has just such tremendous faith, and Rodney is so stoic, and I think one of the things Rodney's always felt is just give him a chance to tell his story and the truth
would come out. And I think that's where doctor phil provides a very powerful conduit to the outside world, is that for someone like Rodney, who's always.
Maintained his innocence, who.
Is supported by all that evidence, the one thing they really want is for people to listen to them with open ears, don't prejudge anything about the case, just listen to what they have to say, and then once you've
heard Rodney speak, then look at the evidence. And I think obviously there's a huge similarity with both Kevin and Rodney in that sense, which is that both of them just want to be heard, and because both of them are so confident not only in their innocence, but in the fact that the evidence overwhelmingly points to their innocence.
And as you mentioned.
With Kevin's case, because Australian prisoners can't be interviewed, we don't get to hear the public don't get to hear Kevin's voice. But I think it's tremendously empowering for Rodney in this situation to not only be able to get his voice out there. I mean, he's been able to
in the past. He's done interviews, but primarily owing to very small news organizations and local news organized nations in his area in Texas, But as you mentioned, this really is national, international, and it's being conducted by someone who, let's be honest, in doctor Field is an international celebrity and known around the world. So to have that is hugely empowering and I think only further strengthens the family's resolves and their belief that the truth will come out.
But one thing I have to say about what Rodney and the family is they never stop fighting, and they
don't whatever it takes to get the information. And I think part of the reason someone doctor Phil can come along is because of someone Rodney and his strength, his ability to articulate his case and the evidence, and his family just never give up and being supported by the team of friends and the lawyers and the laws of supporters who have just pushed for this past twenty years really and so that when someone at Doctor Phil came along, it was really obvious that this needed to be looked at.
And I think anyone who looks at Kevin's case or looks at Rodney's case has the same reaction.
Something's not right.
And then when they look at the evidence, they see it's clear these are two men who are clearly innocent.
And I actually watched the first episode of Doctor Phil's special on Rodney today and I was struck just so often by how many similarities there are between Kevin's and Rodney's case. And I'm sure any of yours who watched Doctor Phil and who listened to the podcast will be able to pick that out straight away. But The thing have found always amazing, particularly in learning more about Rodney's case, is just the fact that it has never been national news.
And I think that's something I've asked you a number of times. I really can't believe that, you know, it has not gotten the prominence that it deserves over the past ten years, and now it's only in the last literally three weeks, the eleventh hour, that it's getting international attention, and only because, as you said, a celebrity has decided to devote every resource to actually overturning this really huge injustice. Why has it taken the mardin? Is there an even
an answer to why? Because you know, I see similar cases get quite a lot of attention, but this seems just to be such an overpowering, massive injustice that could really have an outcome that you cannot reverse. I mean, a man could die, you know, in three weeks, Rodney, you know, could could be executed. Why has it taken so long till the eleventh hour?
Do you think?
I think there's a really simple answer, unfortunately, and it mirrors the case of Kevin Henry, which is that both men are from out of the way areas. Rodney is from rural and Kevin is from rural Queensland, and too often I think the only way clearly people find out about these cases is through the media, and too often rural areas are ignored. Despite the fact that Rodney's case, I think is one of the most compelling miscarriages of
justice in US history. For there to be absolutely no evidence of his guilts and yet a state being willing to sentence him to die in the twenty first century is really sick.
And for the fact that there has been more and more.
Friend's evidence not only point to Rodney's innocence, but highlight who clearly committed this crime. The victim's fiance, who I should point out for those who don't know, was a police officer, and a number of years after Stacey was murdered his fiance he went on to be convicted of raping and assaulting another woman who was in his custody.
And even when that happened, it didn't seem like anyone but the local media in Rodney's area sat up and took notice that you had a police officer who had clearly gotten away with murder and someone else was going to die for it. And for me, it's very similar to Kevin's case.
In that you have a man where his sentence to spend the.
Rest of his life in prison for a crime, whereas there is euro evidence he committed that crime, and no one seems to pay attention. And I think we've seen in cases both in America and in Australia receive huge attention where the evidence is quite contested, there's evidence both for and against the accused, where people's sentences may only be five or ten years, still long sentences, but nothing compared to death or life, which both Rodney and Kevin face,
and yet nothing's done. And I think a lot of that goes to the culture of the media and problem points to why we started the podcast in the first place, which we should remind everyone that his podcast was born out of a conversation and I had about Rodney and I guess Amy, I should ask you that, given we're talking about a case now that has international attention in the last few dayies and doctor phil has come along that four years ago you were actually a journalist on
the other side of the world who wanted to know more about Rodneyton's case and give it the publicity it deserved.
What caught your attention about Rodney's case.
Well, it was really interesting, man, because I really remember asking you on to the program I was on at the time, which was average a radio down in Brisbane, and it was really because at that time, making a murderer had been such a huge phenomenon all across the world. But at the same time I knew that there's so many black men who had been wrongfully convicted as well. And I remember talking to you about coming on and
talking about one particular case, Rodney Reid. And when I read about the case, I was just obviously shocked, but obviously when you come on, I was even more. But as we would talking, remember I asked you the question, and now I feel really stupid about asking you the question. I said, well, why are you working on cases overseas when you could be working in Australia. Why are you doing this when there's so many blackfellows over here who
really need help? And I remember you saying that, well, actually you've gone over there to actually learn and to bring those lessons that you cannot possibly learn over here
back to Australia to help. Is when I started to think of Kevin's name, and I couldn't stop thinking of Kevin's name, because I had no idea if there was evidence to support his innocence or evidence to support his skill to that point, but I just knew that you must, you know, you would be the person who would know if to look at it, if you could look at it.
And so, you know, I've felt really accesst watching what's happened to Rodney over the past three years because I feel so strongly that the cases are connected, and I guess I can't help but think, you know, you know, I want justice for Rodney because for me it means justice for Kevin in some small way. And so to see doctor Phil actually come on board, and knowing our own struggles with trying to get any sort of mainstream media attention for Kevin, that gives me a lot of
hope for Kevin as well. And I know that we're in and hopefully we can update our listeners to where we're currently at with Kevin's case in the coming months, and Australia is so different from the US and that we have to be a lot more therefore in what we do in order not to him in case anyway. But I really hope that that people will actually open their eyes and understand what actually happened in such similar
circumstances in our own backyard. And I think seeing doctor Phil come into that, I would hope that some of our own you know, people with public profiles will actually do that, you know. And I think, like I've been a bit, you know, promoting Doctor Phil's show over the past few days, and a lot of people who may not like the people who may have problems with that sort of type of commercial TV, you know, so I sort of just think, well, what's the other people doing
to help? And it's like Rodney, innocent people like Rodney. I think, you know, there's no room for judgment in relation to any of this. I think we have to ask, you know, what's a lot of our prominent people over
here actually doing to help in similar ways? What do you think about that that Martin, about the fact that you know, this has really come from a person like doctor Phil, who I guess many people wouldn't expect, but you know, other journalists and other media people haven't really paid attention to this.
Yeah, I think it's there's two reasons I think that this happens.
Is One, people seem to make an assumption that only.
A certain type of person cares about these cases. Ultimately, having worked with families in this position for more than fifteen years, no one cares about the person's politics, what TV channel or media company they might be associated with, who they are. All they care about is that someone shows up. And you know, I've had a few people make the comments to me about doctor Phil and you know,
the commercial media side of things. But I have nothing but praise for doctor Phil because in the end, if he didn't come along, Rodney would almost certainly have died. And all that matters to me and to Rodney's family are those who support and love Rodney, is that the truth comes out and Rodney walks out a free man, an innocent man that he is. So I think anyone who is judging me soul has to ask themselves what
have they done for Rodney? And if they aren't willing or simply haven't got around to it, or haven't been wor well, they need to reflect on themselves before passing judgment on anyone else. I also think it comes the second issue is it comes to highlight the problem in Australia that too often we see and you know you spoke about me working overseas.
Is that too often we.
See that, even though this is a last minute thing with Rodney, but too often we do see people come on board in cases overseas in Australia, it's very rare and people and to be totally lost to the system. And you know, if you hadn't had that interest in Rodney's case really before anyone had outside of that area of Texas, then I would never have come to work on Kevin's case and we wouldn't have been able to get the truth out about Kevin.
So I think it really calls into.
Question what the mainstream media are doing with their platform in Australia. We've made the information aware about Kevin's case, just as Rodney's family and lawyers.
Have done so in America.
Well, as we've pointed out over all these years, Rodney's case and Kevin's case, they're almost identical, and the similarities are across both cases. Wherever you turn, Well, someone with a huge platform has stepped up for Rodney, is supporting Rodney, is shining a light on the truth and who really did this crime, the fact that Rodney's innocent, and he's using their tremendous resources in a positive way. And again I have to say I have nothing but praise for
doctor Phil in doing that. And to go and visit the Polunski Unit death row, it is a scary place to go. Doctor Phil has gone inside and conducted that interview with Rodney. It's not something he had to do, It's something he felt he should do. And I hope there are people in a position of manner in Australia, particularly in the media, who feel it's something they should defe Kevin Henry not only feel that, but actually because
why have a platform if you don't use. I say, Rodney would have almost certainly died if it wasn't for this intervention.
He still could, but at least now he has hope. So who Australia who has his ension.
Is going to give Kevin Henry that hope and by doing so, shine.
A light on all the other innocents, people particularly.
Aboriginal and tourists aland to people who have been wrongfully convicted, because if you sit back, only criticized in the sideline, more people will do, the more people who are wrongfully convicted, and to serve out their life without tasting bath and that is a.
Betrayal and I guess mardon. The thing I also wanted to add in just thinking about what doctor Phil has done is he's really gone and he's taken the evidence that has already been put forward very seriously. He's taken the experts and the lawyers and the most most important with the family and even I guess more critically, Rodney seriously. And yet our own experience over here in Australia is the fact that we've spent three years, nearly four years
reinvestigating Kevin's face. We've actually made all of our investigation largely public, so you can actually see and tested just by listening to the podcast, just by listening to it, even twenty episodes. And yet we can't even get idiot to do that. We can't get media to even listen, you know, and ask really informed questions what we're getting.
Insteady people don't believe us still, and I just really intact that's because I think that's that's a key difference in in what doctor Phil has done and what people we've seen who really show up for wrongfully convicted people that overseas do. It's what we need to see over here. You know, you can you can spend the next year complaining about things on social media. It's not going to get any prisoner out. It's not going to help me really, So yeah, I just think it now is time, you know.
I think the thing that Rodney's case really teaches me is that time is precious, you know, and there is literally no time left to wait to actually fight for justice for people like Kevin On Rodney