CM 289: Melody Wilding on How to Manage Up for Career Success

You teach people how to treat you in the workplace. Every interaction with someone is a chance to subtly shape how they treat you. And so if you are the person who is always volunteering for tasks or who is not speaking up, then you may be. unknowingly teaching people that your time is not to be valued. Your voice doesn't matter if it's heard. We have much more power than we realize to shape how other people respond to us. And when we start changing and shifting.

how we're showing up, that really changes how other people respond to us. Welcome to Curious Minds at Work. I'm your host, Gail Allen. Managing up is crucial for your success. It's about knowing your career goals and aligning them with your manager's needs and priorities. Yet it's a skill we're rarely taught and one we rarely see done well.

For Melody Wiling, this gap in how to manage her career became clear when it caused her to lose her job. It's what made her want to write her latest book, Managing Up, How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge. In this conversation, we talk about how to get aligned with your manager on what's most important to them in ways that also help you, how to engage in effective networking, and how to promote yourself in the workplace.

Before we start one quick ask, if you like the podcast, please take a moment to leave a rating on iTunes or wherever you subscribe. Your feedback sends a strong signal to people looking for their next podcast. And if you're interested in what I'm curious about, listen to the end of the episode. And now here's my interview with Melody Wilding. Melody Wilding, welcome to the podcast. I am honored to be here. Thank you. Managing up.

It is so crucial for career management, and yet it is this skill that we all need to learn just to even survive in our organizations today, I think. But we don't really ever learn it. And so it comes up all the time when I work with clients. I know it comes up when you work with folks as well. So when I saw your book, I was so excited.

Because I've been looking for this book, and then your book came across my desk, and I thought, oh, I can't wait to talk to her. So I am thrilled to be speaking with you today, and I am very grateful for all the work that you have probably put into this book. So let's dive in.

Sounds great. Yeah. And I'm excited to hear someone who feels positively about managing up because I think it gets a bad rap. Agreed. And I wanted to kick off with that. I wanted to talk about how you frame it. So we may think that managing up is about making our boss's life easier. And I think that creates some resentment, right? It's all about them. There's nothing in it for us. But you explain and you frame that it's actually about taking control of our.

work experience what do you mean and why are you making this distinction Yeah. If you think about how managing up has been depicted, even if you think about movies or TV shows, you think of someone who is a brown noser, a suck up, someone who's ingratiating themselves to leadership and laughing at everyone. terrible jokes. And it's no wonder if that's our assumption about what managing up is that we don't want to do it. We don't want to have to become that person.

And what I'm arguing for and what I hope comes through in the book is that exactly what you said, managing up is not about your boss at all. It's something you do for yourself because when you can. Advocate for what you need and want when you can push back on unreasonable demands or give important feedback that's going to make your work life better or your team's productivity better.

you're going to be happier, which is something interesting that when I was doing the research for this book, I had dozens of conversations with people about why do you want to manage up? Why is it important to you? I thought I would hear, you know, I want a promotion. I want to be able to make more money so I can take my family on vacation. But it was really the opposite. What I heard from people was that.

I want to stop feeling like I'm at the whim of everything and everyone around me. And I want to feel like I'm actually making a contribution and an impact that I can put my head on the pillow at night and know that my work. made a difference because my voice was heard. And most of all, people were saying, you know, I just want peace of mind. work so closely with my manager. I spend 70, 80% of my life and my time with these people. I want to be able to enjoy it and feel happy. And so I think.

That's the bottom line of what managing up affords you is that it is this skill set that allows you to be more in the driver's seat of your career, to be more of a trusted partner to your leadership rather than just an order taker. a subordinate who's reacting to everything. I was picturing in my mind as you were describing this whole thing that you were putting folks in the driver's seat. And then you said it. And I thought the next thing that came to mind was,

you're no longer having to be the reactive one, the one always responding. And I just think as we uncover some of these conversations together, I think our listeners are going to hear that. I think they're going to hear that. This is such an empowering way to think about managing up. It's a total reframe. So on that note, I want to say that the book is set up with 10 different kinds of conversations that at some point we're going to be having with our managers, some more often than others.

but they're all there. We're not going to try to cover all 10, although I would love to, but we are going to try to cover three or four. The first conversation that you discuss is the alignment conversation. What is this conversation? Why is it so important? The alignment conversation is all about getting on the same page as your manager, trying to understand what tasks.

are most crucial to focus on so that you know you're spending your time and energy wisely. You're not spinning your wheels. And it's crucial for a few reasons. I tell a story at the beginning of that chapter that's a cautionary tale from my own career where because I was not aligned, really I wasn't aligned with. the broader organization, I was let go because my role was seen as a money pit, frankly. And it was because I had not been having these deeper conversations about

What really mattered? And so alignment, we start here. It's the foundation of everything that all of the other conversations build on. And we also start here because. It's kind of the softball conversation in a way because it's so predicated on active listening, asking great questions, being a really perceptive.

observer. And so it's one that for most people allows them to build up their confidence when it comes to managing up before we get into some of the other ones that maybe require a bit more assertiveness.

Tell us if you would, Melody, if you'd be willing to share a little bit more detail because it is a really powerful story about yourself in the workplace and how this conversation in not happening really came back to bite you. And I wonder if you could tell us. What were you focused on doing and what were you focused on not doing as a way for us to maybe see and hear and feel a little bit of what you were going through at that time?

This was over a decade ago now, and I was working in a healthcare organization, and I had been hired to work on a... particular initiative. It was doing social media and communications work, basically sort of patient outreach sort of work. As I came on board, I started to realize that this was a pet project of my managers at that time. And it was something that she felt really passionate about that she had a close relationship with the CEO and the CEO had said, you have some rope.

to pursue this. And I didn't realize this at the time that this was all happening in the background, but she had been given some leeway to do this, to make this hire of me to support with this. But there were a few things that, you know, as I got more into the role, the cracks started to show where there wasn't really a clear plan for what this project was supposed to do. That should have been red flag number one.

Number two, when I would meet with some other people in the organization, they would sort of brush it off as, oh, it's this side thing. And I would hear again and again, it's not related to our core business. And I heard that phrase again and again, the core business, the core business. And I dismissed that. You were asking what I didn't do. I didn't go deeper to understand a bit more about.

what the core business was or to really connect with people to understand what type of support they did need. in the core business. And so when time came for cuts and actually what ended up happening is there was a reorganization and the focus of the team I was on started to shift in a completely different direction.

And new people were brought in and above my manager. And that person said, we don't need Melody's role anymore. And frankly, they were right. You know, they were not wrong about that. I was a... Expensive line item for them on an area that wasn't contributing to what really mattered most. And so those are a few things that I think I should have done a better job of managing up to my own boss to. To better understand, what were the goals? What would success?

look like for this, to get more visibility with upper management to help them understand the value in what I was doing and to advocate for it. And then speaking of advocacy, I really should have spent time building. other allies within the organization. Because when that reorg came, there was no one who really knew me well enough to say, you know what, let's bring Melody over to this team. It was easier to let me go.

So what I really like about this conversation as well is once again, this is not about, of course, your boss is important, but it's not solely about putting your boss first. You share that we should start by reflecting. First on what we want. In fact, you encourage us, think about a year from now. What goals would you want to have achieved? So as you're engaging in this alignment conversation, you're going into it with some thoughts of your own. You're going in.

into it with some recognition that there are some things that you're going to want to partner with them on. Talk a little bit about this idea of starting first by reflecting on what we want. Yeah. As you were just saying, this prevents you from falling into that people pleaser.

mode of, you know, your boss says jump and you ask how high. If you come in with your one year vision, which very simply put there, there is an exercise walking through it in the book with some questions to ask yourself, but very simply it's about. Imagining one year from today, what would you like to look differently in your career in terms of your relationships, the type of projects you're on? What would you be doing instead?

And a year is a important timeframe because it's long enough for a decent amount of change or development to happen, but also short enough that. you can really wrap your head around what you'll be doing 12 months in the future versus three years or five years, things get a little fuzzy. And your one-year vision, what's really great about it is that...

Like you were saying, it comes in in the alignment conversation so that when you are asking questions of your boss, you can also bring up things that are interesting to you. It comes back throughout the book because your one-year vision acts as a filter. It acts as a filter when it comes to things like.

Visibility, for example, instead of bringing attention to every single thing that you're working on, you want to bring attention to the things that align with getting you closer to your one-year vision. That is also extremely helpful because our managers are so busy. So we want to cherry pick. We want to bring up the things that are going to benefit them, benefit us, because they're not going to be able to take everything in that we want to say. And on that note, you share that.

Our managers are super busy, which means that even having an alignment conversation can be challenging. Often they just want to focus or only have time to focus on updates. Are there one or two questions to lead with that maybe could get their attention or get things started? If you ask a question like, so what are your priorities? You may get a very cursory answer, right? Your boss may brush you off or you're just going to get the surface level. One of my favorite questions to ask is.

What are the metrics or goals you discuss with your own boss? That's a really helpful one because it gives you insight into the priorities and the pressures up the chain of command, but it also gives you line of sight into what your boss is being measured on. And so you understand when they're putting extra pressure on you about a certain project, you now have context. Why? Because this may affect their bonus or their career trajectory or their reputation.

That can be a very clarifying and helpful one to ask. Often people have an opportunity for skip level meetings, or maybe they don't, but maybe they should try to advocate for them. How do skip level meetings fit into all of this? What can they do around alignment? You had mentioned a moment ago that managing up is not just about your boss.

And that's a mistake many people make is they focus solely on just their direct manager. And going back to my story, that was certainly a misstep I made. So when we think about managing up, we have to think about... more broadly, navigating and building relationships with the people in power. That includes your boss's boss, your skip level, may also include your boss's peers, other influential colleagues. But when it comes to your skip level,

Specifically, this can be a bit of a sensitive relationship to navigate, right? There's some power dynamics there, but having that relationship with your skip level can be so valuable for a few reasons. Number one. It's going to give you broader insight into the organization that your manager may not have time or maybe that's not trickling down to you in the level that you would hope.

because your manager is sort of immersed in the day-to-day. Number two, it's going to help you build that relationship with someone who can be a potentially powerful advocate for you, who can... say your name, in rooms that you're not in and who may also very likely have influence on your career. Because now more than ever, advancement is not just up to one person. It's often up to a committee.

manager will have to make a case to their leader about why you should be promoted. And so it's only going to behoove you for this person to know who you are, to understand a bit more about your personality, for you to have expressed. interest in them. All of that is why this is really important. Yes, it is a bit daunting, but it's worthwhile.

Melody, what about advice on if priorities keep changing? I know, for example, that many of the clients I work with are in early stage companies, typically fast growth startups. Priorities change a lot. What is maybe one thing they can do as they're navigating a relationship with a manager where things like that keep happening?

This is happening more than ever, right? Because it seems like every day organizations are changing. Everybody's re-orging and downsizing and yeah. That's right. I have clients that have had multiple re-orgs in a year. And so when this happens, a few things. Um, first you could be the one to bring it up and to, as part of the alignment conversation, to try to understand from your manager, some insight. You can say, help me understand what's happening at your level.

Is this related to finances? Is there someone who's influencing differently at your leadership level? You can also bring up, we have multiple priorities. So I would like to understand how a priority. A compares to priority B? Are there any areas you want me to focus on less or more? And that can help you understand some of the invisible drivers because priority A.

may have a very influential stakeholder behind it, for example. And it's more important to put a lot of energy into that, to polish it even more than you would because of... who it's going to have visibility with, for example. And you can also come to your manager and say, this is how I'm spending my time. Are my priorities consistent with yours? Is this meeting the expectation of what you would like to see? Or if not,

what would you like me to change to support you better? That gives you the opportunity to course correct. I'm finding more and more people are actually not having frequent enough. interactions with their manager. And so they'll get a month, two months into a project only to find that now that's outdated and we're not going in that direction anymore. You're putting your finger on something that...

I wonder if it's worth calling out too, which is there can be a feeling of being a little bit more passive. It's like what you said at the beginning of the alignment conversation you and I have been having, which is. We can be tempted to think it's about, you know, please the boss, please the boss. But there's this ownership and agency that we need to take on.

Which means that with that comes the responsibility that we also need to take on to get clarity, to check in, to be the person who reaches out and does those things. And I think that that can be different. For many people, they may think, well, that's the boss's job. They need to reach out to me or they need to do this or they need to do that. And just recognizing that we are actually partners with our bosses, with our managers, and they've got a lot coming at them. They've got to be.

dealing with all of the reorg the restructuring and it doesn't excuse it but it allows us to stop thinking that it's if it you know that it's someone else's responsibility and i'm hearing a lot of that in what you're saying that we have to own it Yes. Yeah. And play a stronger part in it. I love what you were saying about a feeling of agency, right? Instead of this happening to you, you being more of an active participant in the conversation.

I don't think most people realize that your manager has a lot going on. They may not even be aware of the constraints or the... trade-offs that you're making at your level. And so we have a responsibility to inform our manager of that, to say, here's what's happening. I'm hearing now that this new project is important.

At the same time, we only have enough resources for this. How would you like to handle it? And that leads to so much more of a productive problem-solving conversation than just saying you can't keep dumping things on us. Yes. yeah it's a dialogue it's a conversation as you're as you're stating really clearly versus a reaction anything else you want to add about the alignment conversation that we didn't call out

Going back to that idea of you have to go beyond your boss to successfully manage up. There's a concept in that chapter that I call power mapping, which is thinking about who are. the broader stakeholders who you also need to gain alignment with. And there's a very simple exercise in there, just mapping your stakeholders on a two by two matrix of their level of interest versus. influence. And you want to spend most of your time with the people who are both high influence and high interest.

Those are the people you want to prioritize. And there's different approaches for each of the different categories. But a lot of people have found that helpful because you can't invest the same in every single relationship. And so it helps you also. So prioritize your time to create a more sound strategy for how you approach those relationships.

And when you say interest, can you be clear about which perspective of interest you're coming from? Their interest, your interest, your interest in them? Ah, that's a great distinction. Their interest. Their interest or investment in the project.

Excellent. So they've got, you know, ideally you want to be with the folks who have high influence and a lot of interest in the particular project that you're working on. If you can get that combo, that's really helpful. Correct. But you also have to keep in mind, you may have someone who is currently... lower influence and high interest who over time may develop more influence. And that person may then change what category they're in. So it's, it's.

Call to action to keep in mind the fact that we have to play the long game when it comes to building relationships. In this interview, leadership expert Melody Wiling shares how to accelerate career success by managing up effectively. If you'd like to learn more about how to advance in your career, check out episode 218 with Michael Wenderoth, author of the book Get Promoted. Michael bridges the gap between what we're told to do versus what we actually need to do to get ahead.

When you really unpack a lot of the evidence, those who rise, particularly as you move beyond individual contributor, one of the key drivers here is really about your Political skills is about your interpersonal skills because in an organization you're working through or with other people. Now let's get back to my interview with Melody Wilding.

So the second conversation I wanted to dive into is the one about boundaries. I would love if you would define for us what this conversation is. Give us an example of what we're talking about here. The boundaries conversation is really, how do you say no or push back diplomatically? And this is a loaded one because there's so much. pressure, frankly, to be a team player, to be collaborative, to pitch in when

Everyone, everyone is short staffed. Everyone is now working two, three roles. And because of the power dynamics, it can be nerve wracking to have to say no to your boss. And why there's an entire chapter on this is because saying no in the workplace is unfortunately not a complete sentence. That may be true in other parts of life.

But in the workplace, you can't just tell your boss, no, I don't want to or I don't feel like doing that. I don't have time to do that. That's not going to go over well. And so you have to be a bit more tactful about your approach and also read the room. decode the power dynamics and understand what is your leverage. And in the book, I call this your pushback power. What is your leverage with how often and how assertively you can say no?

So you give us a great place to start. You tell us that it's extremely helpful to start by gathering data. Talk about this and how do we couple it with what you call the four feelings test? What I typically see is that we... tend to fall into two extremes when it comes to saying no. We may jump and say, sure, I can do that. No problem. I'll take that on. Or because we're stressed and under pressure, we are defensive.

And we snap at someone when they ask us. So asking questions is about giving yourself a pause between stimulus and response, and then also getting the data you need, the information you need to make a sound decision. Because when you ask questions, when you ask, you know, why did I come to mind specifically for this task? Do you...

Anticipate this being something that's ongoing. What's driving the urgency here? Those types of questions can give you more details to number one, give you a leg to stand on when you do push back to say. actually, this is something that would reside better with this other team. It would make more sense for them and I can make an introduction. Or you may find out through that conversation that

Maybe there's a good opportunity for you here. Maybe it will mean exposure to certain people that you want to build a relationship with or skills that help you work towards your one year vision. And so always start by. asking questions to get more details about what's involved. Excellent. And then where do the four feelings come in? This actually comes from my first book, Trust Yourself Originally. And it's a way to figure out...

Where? Where do you need to set boundaries? Because for most of us, we may not feel entitled to set boundaries in certain ways. We feel like we have to do these things. And so the four feelings test really comes down to using your emotions as signals for where do you need to set some limits and to really simplify it for folks, the most important emotion or rather.

the easiest emotion to identify is often resentment. Resentment is a very strong emotional signal that you feel taken advantage of. You've let a situation. grow in scope to something you're not comfortable with or can no longer handle, it's a sign that you need to have a conversation sooner rather than later to set that boundary.

You encourage us to take one boundary that's being crossed. Let's say it's extra assignments or extended work hours, or maybe it's an unrealistic deadline or more meetings. And you say, okay, dig deeper, find out what's involved in this. Can you say more about this? This goes back to really trying to understand for yourself, is this...

Is this going to be an opportunity for me or something I should pass on? And so, for example, for extra assignments, you know, given my current workload, how would you see this fitting in? or if someone is asking you to work longer hours, can we set some clear guidelines for what would warrant a fast reply here?

For an unrealistic deadline, something like what specific factors determine this turnaround time? All of that not only helps you understand more about what's involved, it also subtly shifts the power dynamic a little because it... starts to put the onus back on the other person to not necessarily justify their requests, but think more deeply.

about what they're asking for. And it can turn it into more of a workload negotiation rather than this sort of one way you're just being told to do something and you take that order. I like that too, because I also feel like if you can get clear responses on that, if you can get good answers, it can save you time in the long run. So if you do have to take this on, if you do have to do this thing, you're actually going to be able to hopefully execute with more efficiency.

That's a great point. What are one or two responses or approaches that we can take? For example, you talk about the conditional yes. You've got others there too, the trade-off, the deferral, the referral. What's a response that you particularly like to talk about that you would like to walk us through?

Well, let's walk through the conditional yes and the trade-off, if that's okay with you. Sure. Yes. So the conditional yes is great when your pushback power, when your leverage is on the lower side. Let's say you haven't been in your role as long. You do not have as much tenure or sway or strong relationship with this person. Conditional yes is useful there. What it means is you say yes to the request now, but you ensure that it's recognized as an exception. So I.

really just had a client go through this yesterday. And she was saying, you know, I had this situation where I had asked my boss for this certain report. And then last minute. My boss came and said, actually, I have a doctor's appointment. I need you to do this. And my client ended up working all weekend to get this done because it was for a client. It needed to get done.

What we came back to was using a conditional yes strategy in the future to say, I understand how crucial this is. I know it's important for the client. So I am happy to take it on this time and take one for the team. But I want to make sure we both know that I won't always be able to accommodate last minute changes like this, especially over the weekend. And so what she was doing there is straddling the line of being a team player.

also making it clear, I'm not going to be taken advantage of. Another thing that you talk about is, let's say in that particular instance, she circles back and she has that conversation. What if there's pushback? How can we handle pushback? Maybe it's the pushback that comes when we first make an argument for why we can't do the thing, or it could be afterwards. What do we do there?

Something you can use, this is not my strategy. It comes from William Urie and Roger Fisher, who wrote a fantastic book called Getting to Yes. They have this strategy that's called the positive no. And the positive no sort of builds on the... conditional yes. I know there's a lot of terminology here, but the positive no is about, okay, I can't do this, but I could do this compromise. And so for example, I understand this is urgent.

At the same time, it's not doable for me to have this entire deliverable by that date. What I can do is have these three sections by then. How does that sound? And I can make sure I'm prioritizing the rest. you know, within a week and delivering that within a week. So again, it's about a negotiation where you're, you're setting a boundary around, this is not possible or reasonable, but here's how I can help. That's terrific.

Yeah, that's really great. I can almost see how, you know, I was listening to an interview with a woman who was sharing what she does in that situation. And she's a VP at a company and she was sharing that sometimes people will come to her and she's got a lean team. overly resourced team. And she was sharing that when someone comes to her, what she wants to make sure they feel is that she tried and that she did everything she could.

So she'll turn to her team and she'll say to them, let's network with as many people we know as possible to see if we can get colleagues to help us out with any part of this so that I can at least go back and say, as you mentioned. listen, we can take this to point A, but we're going to need to reach out to a couple other people and see, could they take it to point B?

D, et cetera. And then she follows up and she'll say to them, yeah, so-and-so and so-and-so, so they could take it the next leg of the journey. Nobody's able to complete it. How does that work for you? And I love what you're saying because no one wants to hear no. You know, it's a really tricky thing to say.

and it's a really tricky thing to hear. But what you're talking about is, can you move the ball? Can you move it a little bit forward to make the person recognize that you're doing the best you can? You're trying. Yeah. And there may be cases where someone tries to guilt trip you to say, you know, I really was counting on you. I thought you were a team player. And if that happens, actually turn that around. Use challenge that assumption.

to say, you're right, I do care about being a team player, which is why I want to make sure I'm productive as possible. Or you're right, I'm invested in doing well and us being successful, which is exactly why I'm suggesting.

suggesting we extend the deadline here so that we can give this the time that it's worth. You also encourage us to consider things beyond the conversation, the words that we use. What do you mean by that? So many people, especially women, will undermine themselves when they set a boundary. As soon as they set a boundary, they may backtrack and say, oh, it's no big deal. Only if you have time.

Or even at the beginning, they may start with apologies. Like, I'm so sorry I have to ask this or I feel bad for putting this on you. And we teach people how to treat us in the workplace. And when you come from more of that tentative place, you're inadvertently putting yourself in a one down position of authority versus if you came and said.

I have a simple request that I'm hoping we could discuss together. That has a totally different energy about how someone is going to approach you and listen to your request versus you throwing yourself under the bus.

What if you work in an organization that is always on? How do you handle that? Is there something or some things, are there things that maybe you can do? Yes, there's a few things. This is tough. I think... We didn't touch on this too much, but right after the alignment conversation, there's a chapter on the styles conversation. And that's about contracting upfront.

about what communication preferences, expectations, all of that is. And so within that conversation, you do want to make sure that if you have certain limitations, for example, you have to pick up your kids at a certain time or whatever it may be, that you're having that as part of your discussion. in the styles conversation. And for example, you may contract around the fact that

I know that emails may come in after 6 p.m. when I'm technically off for the evening. So how does it work if I send a quick response so you know that those have been received? And I can also let you know when I'll be able to get to that. And so that way, when, when things do come in, you may be in the type of environment where you still have to acknowledge at the very least, you may just have to say received, got it. I'll tackle this first thing in the morning because.

In many organizations, especially if you work in something like PR, crisis communications, or anything that's very timely, people want to know you are attentive and responsive. And at the end of the day, That goes so far to reduce the other person's uncertainty because they may. In the absence of information, someone may make up reasons for why you're not responding. And so when you do that, at least you have assured people and you've sort of set an expectation about.

I got this, but this is when I will be working on this and get back to you. The third conversation I wanted to talk about, that is the networking conversation. And a big reason why I wanted to talk about this one is because I can just picture the eye rolls, as I said, networking.

and you take it melody and you talk about it in such a different way you reframe it and make us realize and think about the fact that again so many benefits for us and we can think about it very differently so let's start with if you could define it for us and the way you talk about it. The networking conversation is about building relationship and connections. I think that's a better word than networking, which has unfortunately been tainted. And really...

What it all comes down to is creating social capital. And you want to think of social capital as, you know, if we think of currency, right? We have dollars, cents, crypto, what have you. That is a form of power, but so is having access to information, to resources, to people who are willing to do you a favor. That's a different form of power that can be very useful when you don't have positional authority.

And so, you know, I, like I mentioned earlier, I wish I had had those connections, those allies, those people who were willing to go to bat for me. or who were even willing to give me a heads up when some of those rumblings of the reorg were happening, I could have been. job searching or I could have done something else to position myself differently. And so that's what the networking conversation is about is how do you invest in that bank of social capital with

the right influencers, decision makers who can help you maybe now and in the future. You explain that a key part of networking is gaining exposure. What are a few ways we can do that?

In psychology, there's something called the mere exposure effect, which is the idea that the more time we encounter someone or the more time we spend with someone, the more we tend to like them and trust them. And so you want to think about how do I... expand my surface area of serendipity, the number of places and opportunities I have to run in to new people, to deepen relationships with people I already know.

And so that can look like a number of things, whether it's joining a employee resource group, an affinity group at your organization, which can be wonderful because you can cross pollinate with people that have. different levels of seniority or come from different parts of the organization, but you already have this built-in similarity or interest.

You may volunteer for a committee or a cross-functional project that's going to expose you to different parts of the business. Maybe it's a company book club or volunteering. I know a lot of people now will use Slack or Teams to connect with smaller groups of people across the organization. Even something as simple as... In a meeting, being conscious of where you are sitting and not sort of just sitting off in the back by your work bestie, but pushing yourself to.

sit near someone you normally wouldn't or someone who is a bit more influential so that it's actually easier to strike up conversation with them. That sort of proximity makes a huge difference. You talked about thinking about who to connect with and who to engage with, part of which is the influence piece.

How do we think about people that it's most important to engage with? Because there can be times where we're putting a lot of effort into networking, but we could be spinning our wheels because we're not thinking about it strategically. How should we think about it? So there's three categories I suggest. The first of those is decision makers. And going back to that idea of your boss isn't only the...

only person who can influence your career. It might be your managers, peers, leaders in other departments, board members, external partners. people at your clients, for example. So decision makers is the first category. Then we have powerful peers. So these may be people who are lateral to you on the org chart, but They are movers and shakers. They are people who in a short amount of time may gain greater influence and will be very helpful to know. And then we have

people I call the behind the scenes badasses. And that's anyone from administrative, IT, HR. facilities, those are very helpful people to have in your corner, as well as admins, you know, executive assistants who can give you access to someone's calendar, or even in HR. I've had so many clients who have had

employee issues or they have a benefits issue for themselves. And then having that HR business partner that you have a good relationship with who can give you the down low on how an approval process. really happens or push something through for you in a quicker timeline, that can all be invaluable. What are things to keep in mind when you're interacting with new people for the first time? It could be...

even the five minutes before everybody's on Zoom for a meeting. What should we keep in mind when we're going to make an introduction? Someone asks us about ourself. What are some ways to think about that and be strategic about that as well?

Two parts to this. There's sort of the casual conversation piece that may happen before you're asked to build an introduction. And for that, I would say, don't fritter that time away. What most people do is someone asks them, well... oh, what have you been up to? Or how are things going? And we just kind of ramble about, we complain sometimes, or we just say, oh, nothing, you know, yeah.

busy. And that's a huge missed opportunity. And so if you have, I like to call it a pocket update, just a short you know, 30 second to one minute sort of work update on what you've been, what you've been doing. If it's you know, you've been working on something fun in AI and it's showing a lot of promise that.

That provides so much more value. It can open up a deeper conversation and intrigue versus just saying, yeah, it's, you know, it's been an okay start to the year. That is a moment to shape your reputation that most people just overlook. Now, when it comes to your actual introduction, the key here is to balance credibility and warmth. And so with credibility.

You might say, you know, it's great to be here as part of this team. I work with this person and my background comes from this certain area. I'm really excited to be part of the team working on this sort of. working on this project, and we're already seeing some great results here. So there's a few things happening in there. First is that you're providing social proof about who you work with.

what your background is, because if you're introducing yourself to people for the first time, they're sizing you up. That's what we do as humans. And we want to know, does this person understand where? I'm coming from? Are they going to be able to speak my language? Do they have knowledge? All of that, that sort of credibility is something we're taking into account when we're judging. Should we trust this person? What's going to come out of their mouth next?

And you're also talking about this is specifically what I do or what team I'm a part of. So people know how to place you. They can get a better idea of what to come to you for, for example. And then the last part, if you can, is insert some sort of win, for example, or some sort of progress that you're working on. Because that shows people you're not just, you know, you're not just running to the mill. You're actually.

Getting stuff done, you're achieving results. Sometimes when we make a new contact, we want to ask something of them. Are there ways to go about that that both help us to take the leap? It can be a little intimidating. but also help us to do it effectively and wisely. Many of us don't realize that fundamentally relationships are transactional. And when I talk to people about networking,

one of the first things they'll say is, I don't want to be transactional. I don't want it to feel like I'm just trying to get something from someone. And so once we accept that relationships... are by their very nature, give and take and give and take. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but we have to build.

up to it. You can't just come out of the gate and ask someone to put in your name for a promotion. We have to build up to it. And so what I suggest in the book is starting with what I call a info. ask, an information-based ask. And that could be about anything from certain trends someone is seeing, a process that you would like more insight on, trying to get... background details on the history of a project, vendor recommendations, trying to get someone to share a resource or a template.

a slide deck with you, for example. So it's information based. And the idea there is that number one, that's easier for someone to. to give. It has less reputational risk. Usually it's minimal time and effort. And it provides an opening for you to loop. back with that person and to let them know how you implemented or used what they shared with you. And that can be great because that solidifies the relationship even more. That's really helpful. And you also encourage us like.

Really keep time bound. Like when you're doing this with someone, really, really honor and respect their time. Stay on top of it. I love the idea of circling back. I don't think most of us do that enough. It's such an easy strategy, but so underutilized. And, you know, listen, you have two ears for a reason, as, you know, first grade teachers would say, and listen for some of those personal details. If someone shares they're running a marathon, make a note in your calendar or.

schedule an email to yourself to check in with that person to say, oh, you know, how was that marathon you ran last month? That level of personalization and attention, it just... It pours rocket fuel on the relationship. Yeah, that's huge. When you're in someone's thoughts in that way or you feel that way, it's a real boost. What if we want to reinvest?

in a networking relationship, or if we want to keep a relationship warm, what are some things to keep in mind there? Going back to the idea of social capital, right? We have to... Keep reinvesting, you know, just like you would monetarily. You have to keep putting savings in that bank because anytime you make a request, it's like a mini withdrawal.

from that relationship. And so we want to make sure that if we need anything in the future, we have social capital banked over time. And so being of service, giving value to the other person. We hear that a lot, but people are very intimidated by that idea because they think, well, I don't have, I don't have any value to give this person, especially if they're several levels above me. What in the world am I going to give to them?

And so in the book, I share this idea of micro gives doesn't have to be some. huge thing. It can be something as small as a resource, for example. So if you, if that person was mentioning they ate at a great Italian restaurant and you come across an Instagram with recipes, maybe you send that along to them, for example. It's just this, it's a little token that you were thinking about them and you paid attention to their interests.

Love that one. Love it. And there's something else in this section that you talk about is toward the end of this chapter. And I was really struck by it because I don't think a lot of authors write about this, especially in relation to social capital, social currency, but it's huge.

avoiding gossip. So what are things to do and say? And just start by telling us why you even want to make this a priority in your interactions. Well, as you build more relationships, you become privy to more information. People come to you and sometimes they come to you with the gossip or complaints about other people.

If you get roped into that, it's going to reflect your reputation, right? And what do they say about gossips? If they're talking about someone to you, then they're probably talking about you behind your back. And, you know, I hope that the type of person who is reading this book is someone who wants to operate from a place of high integrity and realizes that.

The gossip, the rumor mill is not the game they want to play and they want to be part of the person who is nipping that in the bud. There's a few things you can do here. So many. people gossip as a way to connect with other people because they don't really know another way to connect with other people. That means if you can validate that person, you can make them feel seen and heard.

But you redirect them. You nudge them in a different direction to say, yeah, it's really tough to hear. I know a lot is changing right now. And is there someone you think you could talk to directly about this so that... You're acknowledging the person's feelings, but you're trying to point them towards a better solution. Something else I really like is to, if the gossip is particularly about a person.

is to say something complimentary about that person. If someone is complaining, you know, a woman in particular is aggressive, for example. You might say, you know, she doesn't come off that way to me. I actually, I really admire that she is the guts to speak her mind. And it, again, it takes the air out of that. Melody, the theme of the podcast is curiosity.

And I always wrap up the conversation with my guests with two questions. This is the first one. What are you most curious about today? I think I am most curious about how... AI is going to continue to shift our workplace relationships. And what I mean by that is, you know, there's no doubt. There's no doubt that more and more every single day, AI is capable of doing.

tasks. It's capable of writing code and content and so much more. But what it's never going to replace is the human dynamics. And so I have been so curious about how do we take the invisible part of human psychology in the workplace and make it visible, make it. tangible for ourselves because that's going to be what we need to operate in the future of work and to be successful in the future of work because AI will be able to execute.

but it will never be able to replace some of the subtleties, the nuances. And we need to get better at having language for that, frameworks for dealing for that. So that's something I spend a lot of my time thinking about. And then my last question, there's so much in the book, we can't cover it all. Is there anything you want to, any message you want to leave the listeners with, or is there anything I haven't asked that you want to be sure you get a chance to speak to?

Well, there was this idea that I mentioned earlier about you teach people how to treat you in the workplace. Every interaction with someone is a chance to subtly shape how they treat you. And so if you are the person who is always volunteering for tasks or who is not speaking up, then you may be.

unknowingly teaching people that your time is not to be valued. Your voice doesn't matter if it's heard. We have much more power than we realize to shape how other people respond to us. And when we start changing and shifting. how we're showing up, that really changes how other people respond to us. That is an incredible message to leave us with. Melody, I cannot thank you enough. This is a terrific book and it has been such a pleasure to speak with you.

Thank you so much for having me. Curious Minds at Work is made possible through a partnership with the Innovator Circle, an executive coaching firm for innovative leaders. A special thank you to producer and editor Rob Megabelli for leading the amazing behind-the-scenes team that makes it all happen.

This week, I got curious about Dave Stachowiak's podcast, Coaching for Leaders. After listening to several of his interviews, I wanted to give him a shout out for all his work, his consistency, and his dedication to his listeners. Thanks Dave for injecting terrific professional learning into my day.