What makes a first-class Go port? Plus 👸 OpenAPI tools fit for a princess, with quobix

This show is supported by you. Stick around to the ad break to hear more. This is Cup o' Go for March 15, 2024. Keep up to date with the important happenings in the Go community in about 15 minutes per week. I'm Shay Nehmad .

I'm Jonathan Hall.

I'm gonna just pencil in that about in the in the notes here. How are you feeling?

Oh, I'm under the weather. My kid woke me up 3 times, 4 times in the night. I'm gonna go take a nap after we're done here.

Yeah. So am I. Please accept our if you're into that sort of stuff, this is the sick corner. Sick go news. Nineties commercial. But yeah, this episode is gonna be extra nasally. So let's get started because it's not gonna get any better.

Let's talk about some meetups. You were in a meetup this last week, weren't you? Did did you make it? Were you too sick to make it?

I made it. Okay. I think I got better. I missed last week. Thanks to Dalena, by the way, for filling in. And I got better, and then I did the meet up, and then I got worse, which is very, normal when you go to meet ups or like conferences, right? You just get sick afterwards. So I was I was pretty good. The meet up was interesting. It was hosted at my company, my current company called Oka Security.

Mhmm.

We did that, and then we started the actual talks. And the talks went really well. I gave a talk about, Rigo, someone else from my company gave a talk about, Go Releaser, which we talked about a few times in the show. And then Nachshon from Reddit, gave a really good talk about how to build a Kubernetes operator. So that was pretty cool.

Yeah. On our on our Slack channel, Joe Davison mentioned that the Manchester Go meetup is starting back up again. Apparently, it hasn't been running for a while. I don't know if this is a a COVID thing and they're finally getting back to the swing. But if you are in the Manchester area on is it April 3rd? You can join the Manchester Go meetup and learn about Temple, t e m p l, which I've seen making the news rounds. We'll probably talk about it on the show at some point, but not this week.

Yeah. Do you get the feeling when you this isn't, like, my 6th or 7th Go meet up slash GoferCon, event. Do you get the feeling that, you start to see the same faces again and again when you come to the same Go community in the same country.

Oh, yeah.

People come up to me like, oh, we know you from, Gofer Con Israel or Jardin, which if you remember, filled in for me filled in for you, sorry,

for months. Yeah.

When you were in Guatemala. She came in during the talk and was like, hi. You know, I I was in the middle of talking, but I was like, hi. And, Miki and Guy Miki is actually our first guest, if you remember. Yeah. The first episode. So he's still, you know, running the conferences and the meet ups. So he was there obviously. And Guy Brandwine, which is another, you know, one of the co organizers. You start seeing the same faces.

I have one for you, Shay. Yeah. Yeah. What does this number mean to you? 1,000,000,000 136,000,000 214,245. What does that number mean?

I guess it's the number of times I had to do men, tar because I don't remember the tar flags.

So there's a new proposal or it it I guess it's declined now, but I thought it was fun to bring it up anyway because this number is just so much fun to say. The proposal was to add that number as a string layout for the time formatting. If you're familiar with time dot format, you put in 1 for the month, 2 for the day, 3 for the year, etcetera, etcetera.

That's the American way. And then the European way is, the correct one where it's it's the almost correct one.

Oh, yeah.

That's a day, month, year. And then there's the really correct one, which is year, month, day, because it's sortable.

Yeah. Anyway, so the the the proposal was to add this number, 1136214245 as a formatting constant in this format string to represent UNIX timestamp seconds, a second since January, 1, 1970. It got declined. I I can't say I'm sad to see it was declined. I think it would have made for some really awkward formats, and there are other ways to accomplish the same, obviously.

So how do you how how would you replace it, though? This is this is horrible, don't get me wrong. Thanks a lot for your suggestion. Again, this is not personal. Dave Pivke from Rapid City SD? What's SD? South Dakota. South Dakota.

Rapid City, South Dakota.

So thanks Dave, but this is very hard to remember. So I wouldn't wanna see it in a time parse call. He says this value is unambiguous and I just can't believe that's right.

The, so the alternative you asked, if you actually need to do this. So if if all you need is the UNIX timestamp, you just call dot UNIX and you get an integer. Right?

Mhmm.

But if you need it as part of a bigger string, then you have to do some string concatenation yourself. That's the alternative. Which I do understand, if you use this frequently, it would be pretty cumbersome, but I I would find it unusual if anybody, except in a very rare, you know, very specific domains would need to do that regularly.

Talking about rare stuff that people don't need to do unless they're in very specific domains, there was a proposal to promote, how about that segue? That's a good one. There was a proposal to promote, Windows ARM 64 to a first class port. So there are two things to break down here. First of all, what does it mean Windows ARM 64?

Mostly Linux though.

Yeah. Yeah. But there are enough. It's not negligible, which, you know, thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense. Right? You're in a corporate environment that's that didn't do like a transformation yet. It's not a software first company. It's just a company, like a manufacturing company. Of course, you're gonna use Windows. Like what's nobody's gonna buy you a Mac.

I didn't either, yeah.

So we looked up the documentation page. There's a page called porting policy, which definitely seems like we got to the part of the booklet that's only for the Go team employees. So what is a port? Right? Go team maintains, again, the OS plus architecture combo, such as Linux, 386.

Yeah.

Yes. Yesterday's date. Yep. I saw it. I saw the screenshots, and I'm excited. What's going on?

More powerful go execution traces. Who doesn't want that? Power.

You know how the emperor Palpatine, infinite power.

And it starts out with one of those famous sexy, like, flame graphs of, like, execution time and, you know, so it's already off on a good foot. TLDR, you can do execution traces in Go, and have been able to for a long time, but they run into 4 common problems. There's a lot of there's a high overhead for doing execution traces, as high as 10 to 20% for many applications. Related to that, they don't scale very well. If you have a large application or or a busy application, your trace output can be too big to really analyze meaningfully.

That's a really politically correct way to say the API sucks and we've made people suffer for, programmatically enabling something. Adventurous. It's not something you wanna see on a library description, you know, using solely or a dating app profile. Right? Only match me if you're adventurous. Anyway, sorry.

So, the the article goes into some of the recent advancements in tracing. Just right off the bat, as of go 1.21, some major work has gone into the overhead problem. And now, typically, overhead is 1 to 2%. So a 10 x decrease in overhead for tracing. That's Yeah.

We talked about this on the show, if you remember. I think, like, half a year ago, just making Go production work even easier. It's like, oh, yeah. I'll turn on, tracing. But the fact that the impact on the CPU is lower, doesn't mean that the traces are smaller. So you still have to deal with a lot of storage. But they've solved this as well, right?

So they have some new tools now that will do a little bit more intelligent parsing and manipulation of these traces to use less memory. It says that just a few 100 megabytes of a trace could require several gigabytes of RAM to analyze. And by splitting that essentially into smaller chunks, they're able to do much more detailed analysis with much less memory. So it's sort of a new technique to analyze the traces that you've created much more efficiently already. And then the article continues to go on to talking about flight recording and, the API, which has gotten better.

Yeah. It looks

really good. I I love the flight recorder, thing. I I never heard about this, I don't know, design pattern or, I guess, usage pattern called flight recorder. Have you ever used it?

No. I don't think I have.

So for for those of you who don't know what, flight recording means, flight recording means, you know, you always record, So you continuously record, which for the previous traces was a non starter. Right? It means you always have a 20% penalty on your application, and you store tons of data. But the fact that the trace impact is lower and the files are smaller, basically means you record all the time, but you, like, cycle it. Right?

But there are people who use Vim and Neovim as their IDE essentially, right? Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

And I'm sure that some of them are listening to this.

Yeah, I think, first of all, for sure, the people who use Neo Vim, will be happy to tell you about it. Like, yo, it's just VIM script is so weird. Let's do Lua blah blah blah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm done with configuring editors, man. I I used to love it. Oh, I found another thing. I found another thing. Now I just wanna open it.

Well you say it sounds simple but you know if I were to write that plug in the first thing I have to learn is how to exit VIM. Yeah. And that's a deal breaker already.

For for many people. What editor do you use, by the way, if you're already exposing personal details?

Yeah. I use US code for for heavy editing. For light editing, I use a a tool called Joe, j o e, Joe's own editor.

Joe? Yeah. I've never even heard of it. JoE's own editor.

So the the reason I use JoE is because it uses word star key bindings, which I learned way back in the DOS days and I just never bothered to learn new key bindings as I migrated operating systems over the years.

That definitely looks the latest release is 2018. What are you gonna do when it falls out of maintenance? Don't know. Well, you're just gonna have to learn how to exit Veeam, I guess.

I guess so.

Well, we have a lot of other topics in the backlog, but we've been, prattling on for too long. Coming up we have

a very interesting interview. Stick around for that after our break. Thanks for making it this far into the program to our little break between the programming, where we'd like to do a call out to our new Patreon.

Professional podcaster here, everyone.

What do you call that break between programs? Where you talk about commercial things? Yeah. Alright. So we have one new Patreon in the last few weeks. Adelina, who you all know from last week's show and previous shows as well. Thanks, Adelina, for being a a member, and supporting the show in more than one way.

If you want, she didn't ask us to do this. But if you want to get to know Adelina's work better, go buy, test driven development with Go. I can hardly recommend the book. We want to do, by the way, give out copies in the, in the meetup. I don't know if you do that. Give prizes out, like, do a raffle and give, like, licenses.

Occasionally, if somebody if if we have donated things, we'll give them away at a meetup. Yeah.

So we figured we could do, like, GoLand licenses, you know, and just do a raffle and and do Adelina's book. Yeah. But we decided, a, because of the nature of the meetup, it's the first meetup, and they're still, like, it was a weird vibe. We decided to give up the raffle. The books couldn't get here in time. That's also a big reason. But also, turns out everybody who comes to a Go meetup, either their company already pays for Go land licenses or they just don't want them.

We had the same thing. JetBrains has offered us licenses to give away, and we couldn't we couldn't sell them to people because everybody either had them or didn't want them.

Yeah. I think it's I was very surprised, but if you offered me a Go land license now for free for, like, 5 years, I might install it. But honestly, like, I don't know. It's a really heavy program.

Yeah. I don't like the program very much, but I I do use it occasionally. One of my mentors, we do the screen sharing thing through GoLand. So I would probably take the free license and and store it in case my one of my clients gives me a free license right now. If they didn't, I would I would fall back to that.

JetBrains, if you want to sponsor this show, of course, your editor is the best and and, you know, leave this out editor or whatever. You're you're you won. But if you if you don't, that's our opinion.

Right.

Anyway, sorry. So, thanks to Dalena for, for supporting the show. If you want to sponsor the show, and help support us, maintaining this very fun, very educational, but somewhat expensive hobby. You know, we have to pay for editing. We have to pay for hosting fees, etcetera. You can join our Patreon and become a member. It's $8 a month, and we would really appreciate it.

You can also support the show by just sharing it with a friend or colleague. Drop a link to the your favorite episode on your work, Slack. Or if you're in university, you know, share it with some students who are also studying programming. Just spread the word that that you like this the show and and get some more listeners out there. Yeah.

And you can also leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Apparently, all these ratings and, reviews other than I just figured it's a thing you say. Right?

Uh-huh.

But I recently learned that in specific categories, if a show gets a lot of reviews and positive whatever, it gets pushed up so it could help our discoverability. Although, I can't really believe someone clicking on the show in random. It's probably almost a 100% by word-of-mouth. Although I

I did recently get some some semi spam from, one of a podcast promoting company. They told us they told me that our show is in the top 75 15 minute format programs, which doesn't mean anything because nobody cares about that. So we were listed among things like, I don't know, cooking tips in 15 minutes a week, you know, completely unrelated topics.

Yeah. We could do cooking tips. We could. The the only problem is you can't, program Go and and do cooking at the same time. Because usually, you know, if you work in c plus plus or whatever, you compile, and then you have, like, 15 minutes to cut up onions. But the compile time in Go is so short that you don't have any

It just means our cooking tips will be like, how do we do microwave popcorn?

I'm gonna this is a total sidetrack, and we might edit this out. But I, cook a 150 burritos in one sitting and then freeze them. And then I have breakfast burritos for like the whole quarter. And it's actually what I'm eyeing right now to eat once we finish this every. So Alright. Unironically, I can give you that tip.

We don't wanna keep shy from his, burritos. Yeah. Also join us on the Slack where, we mentioned it earlier in the show, but we have a Slack channel with 340 people on it, I think, now. Cup of go, kebab case on the go for Slack. Come join the conversation there, share your news items, and, chat with the people who, make the show and who guests on the show as our interview guests.

I I really wanted to shout out, a new member. We we used to do it when the show was really small. Right? Every single person who joined, we're like, oh, hi.

Mhmm.

But, Boris, I guess it's Boris with a y, just a top notch, Slack, profile picture. Just the Homer's face with a yellow background, with really fun feedback. You just said the episode is really good. He likes the layout, and he's wondering if he could introduce Go to his company's stack. So my recommendation to you, Boris, if you wanna add Go to your company's stack is find like the smallest Lambda, like authentication thing you can find.

If you

want to find all these links, the store where you can buy cups or the Patreon where you can just give us money or, the Slack where you can talk to all these beautiful people or our email address if you want to spam us and find all these links at kapago.dev. That is kapago.dev. I don't know. Should I say it's a web link? Https

colon/capago.dev.

But the your browser will figure all that out for you.

You could do it. You could say backslash backslash for those Windows ARM users out there.

Yeah. But if, Go team doesn't have first class support, we don't have, first class support.

Alright. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Thanks for listening, everyone.

Shai, do you hear that?

Do I hear what?

It sounds like someone might be tapping in on a conversation. I think there's a wiretap going on here.

Oh my god. Who's listening? I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

Hi. Is Coolpix is listening again?

No. It's not that kind of wiretap. When you

walk to the

garden, you

know what I'm saying? You

What's up, Globix?

Nice to meet you. Doing?

I'm pretty fine. Yeah.

So why don't you before we dive into wiretap and, its core literally products, vacuum, and, libopen API. And if you get all of them today, we're also throwing a pair of steak knives. How about you tell the people who you are and what you do?

Well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Hello, everyone. My name is, and I'm the founder of, a company called Princess Beef Heavy Industries or PB 33f for short. It's actually it's shorter when you say it, you know, versus typing out. Anyway

It's kind of a hard to forget name. Princess Beef Heavy Industries.

Yeah. Princess Beef Heavy Industries. You know, it's actually, something that came from my 2 year old daughter. She watched a show, and it's called, the Blaze and the Monster Machines. It's a show about it's a cartoon about monster machines, monster trucks. And there's not there's no princesses or beef or any they can't mention that anywhere in there. But, anyway, yeah, she used to call it. I thought, you know, what a great name. What a great name. What what does you use that?

And what does the Princess Beef Heavy Industries

do? That's a very good question. So, we as building developer tools for hackers, engineers, effectively the enterprise grade tools designed for open source, open source tools for any engineer to to be able to take and use. It's beautifully designed and very heavy duty, all built in Go or founded in Go.

So I wanna this is not how we usually do things, but I wanna tell the people how you got on the show. Because usually what happens, people, like, participate in the community or tell about, like, some go thing they did on the Slack channel or whatever. And then we pick up about it, but basically from content. Right? From Reddit threads, from Twitter threads, from announcements, and then we reach out to those people. But this is the rarer and

Yeah. There are. Yeah. So it it could have all started around a foundation of needing to be able to pass OpenAPI. And OpenAPI is it's an open it's a standard for defining rest APIs and rest interfaces, if you haven't heard of it.

So you you briefly mentioned that VMware doesn't exist and that they wouldn't let you open source this. We're not saying those 2 are related, but they could be. John,

have you ever

did you ever find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having to configure a vSphere, like cluster?

Unfortunately, yes. I was, the, the UI architect for the vSphere, client.

So I don't wanna beat that guy, but good riddance.

Yeah. It's we you know, the the technologies definitely had this foundation, in the industry, and it became critical at some point. But I feel like VMware lost its way, you know, personally over the years with vSphere, which has got bigger and bigger and bigger and heavier and heavier and heavier and more and more expensive, and they're more and more complicated. And then when it was trying to modernize the platform, it was kinda stuck. And and it was very almost impossible to try to rearchitect the entire thing from ground from the ground up.

It's it's, Broadcom is the farm upstate. Yeah. Exactly. Where where my goldfish is. Everybody's fine there. Don't worry about it. So you mentioned 4 tools. One of them is a library. I assume most of our listeners won't interface with LibOpenAPI directly but if you use Go and you need to parse open API, you can use libopenapi. Now you mentioned there were already tools in the industry. I was like personally familiar with, Spectral, I think, or a

spotlight or something like that. Yes. Yes.

What is the difference? Like why did you need to develop it, again yourself? Why not just pick up Spectral or any of the other dozens of JavaScript? Yeah.

That's a great question. With Spectral, I've I've originally built all the tooling for all of us. We built this documentation tooling and things like that. It was all built on top of the linting provided by Spectral. Problem is with Spectral is JavaScript, right, as we know, as you may not know, as you well, you know now.

What?

I love linters. I mean, they're great. Right? If if they're done well, if they're useful, you know, if they if if it's just, like, the same, like, you know, noise, just spewing noise, not not so useful.

Right.

Yeah. Well, but if you can structure the noise as JSON, maybe.

That's all it takes.

Minus minus format JSON is enough to buy me over almost any tool. You have format JSON? Alright. Alright. I'll use you. I'll give you another

day on the terminal before,

you get brew uninstalled.

So let's let's talk about quickly how how do you get started with with a tool like, well, any of them really, but, let's look at vacuum. So you've got some open API spec. How difficult is it to get started? I mean, can you just throw your spec at it? Or do you have to do some setup? Do you have to configure the the rules you wanna use? How does that how does that go?

Yeah. That is a great question. So usually, the the you you don't need to know about tools like vacuum or any any of the the princess beef stuff for now until you're faced with a, oh, no. I need to use OpenAPI. Let me go look out there for for the tools that are available.

Mhmm.

With spectral, it comes with built in rules, but you've gotta generate a rule set file and you've gotta feed that in and that, you know, like, well, do I need all do you really need all of that? No. Not really. You should just be able to just throw a spec and get something out of it. So it actually operates as as a console tool.

Just need to make sure it's, compatible with Elvish. You know? We just had that guy on, Chi. He's the developer of, Elvish. It's a Go terminal.

It's a Go shell. Running a

Go terminal, running a vacuum. But at the end, it's just to validate your open API files because you gotta develop your TypeScript to back end corporate work because it's corporate that it's someone decided that it's TypeScript so bad. Well, I'll take we'll take, our beautiful terminal UIs and our fast go, services where we can take them. Yeah. And then to Python on the back end as well.

Well, maybe. Not my first choice.

Well, definitely not mine as well.

But so you

mentioned the UI. This is a audio format. So it's gonna be kind of difficult to describe it, but all the Princess Beef stuff, vacuum and, at least, with what I've seen. Both the site itself and vacuum, the HTML reports, and wiretap, which we'll get into in a second, have a very distinct

Before you describe it, Shay, I want the listeners to just pause for a moment and imagine if if you had a theme called what was it? Princess?

Princess beef heavy industries. Yeah.

If you had a if you if you had a theme, name that. What kind of colors would you imagine? And I think this was not going to disappoint.

Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I've always been hugely passionate about is so there's there's a vacuum going on in the back in the background, funnily enough. I'm not sure if you can hear

it or not, but if

you do, I apologize. It up. No worries. Okay. Good. So back

in wait. Are you actually, like, limping API roles right now, or is there a legitimate vacuum going on in the background?

So one of the I I kind of grew up, you know, on the Internet around, like, the late nineties, and, you know, it was a huge kind of emerging hacker culture back then. And then movies like The Matrix and Hackers and all that kind of stuff came out, and it kind of cemented this idea of, you know, you know, how you represent, you know, people that technical I don't know. Hackers, whatever, nerds, geeks, whatever you wanna call them. DevOps? Yeah.

So my first thought when I looked at the install page was, a quote from Jurassic Park. Oh, this is UNIX. I know this.

With the 3 d cubes going on. But I gotta say, I I've used it a few times already. It's cool looking, but, it's just the colors. Behind it is a super boring and safe, you know, API schema, linter, and validator software. Like, with a few CSS tweaks, it

could look like an accounting software. Don't worry. It's boring and works.

It just looks cool.

Yes. Exactly right. Yeah. So there's a built theming into it. I haven't quite deployed yet, but, yeah, we can turn it into TurboTax, at a at a drop drop of a hat. I just prefer you know, I prefer that. You know?

Don't let the, the vSphere have some yellow, have some blue gradients, have some folders and folders and folders. Sorry. Sorry. I don't mean to rag on vSphere. That's not the point of the show. Okay. So we talked about, vacuum, and we did a tangent about the UI, which is really cool. Hands down, one of the cool softwares I've I've used recently. Let's talk about wiretap. I think that's the real star of of this show.

Yeah. Who still is about OpenAPI? You know, OpenAPI is is not sexy when you think about what it is as a standard. But when you think about some of the tools we can build, some of the things it can do, and the results of it, it becomes pretty sexy. There's there's there's there's a lot of cool stuff that we can do.

Or or one rule that I may have seen 5,000 and change times in my results, using the same description,

Successful response. Yeah. Description duplication. Yeah. It's just the same. Okay. It's like okay or okay. Okay. Okay is is the most common one. And it comes from, like, CodeGen. But you think about when you feed that spec into documentation tools, it just all it says is okay. Like, every every operation. Okay. Okay. What? We need okay. What what else?

Okay. Computer.

Yeah. Exactly.

Insert Radiohead. So it checks for, like, common errors and, like, mismatches in references and many common mistakes that I've done myself and I'm sure many of the other listeners done as well. Is do you have, like, your your pet rule that you like to demo that's, like, a bit unique or or, you know, what's your favorite rule?

What's my favorite rule? So, yeah, I've never really thought about it because there's, like, 80 of them. I don't think I've got a favorite one because I spend so much time debugging them. I've all got a a little bit of hate for all of them. I can tell you the one that is the most, like, description problems.

might be completely inaccurate. So we have a little bit of open API, which is if you wanna parse open API in Go in a perform a way, And we have vacuum. So if you have an open API file that you're in charge of or you have a huge open API file at your company, you can finally lint it. Let's jump to wiretap, which is I think slightly harder to get your head around, but super interesting. So what does wiretap do?

Yeah. It's actually that this is, it's I I feel the same way about wiretap. It's like a it's a it's an untapped, entity at the moment. It's like it's there's a lot of power there, but I haven't fully kind of exposed it out. And Mhmm. But I'm kind of digressing. Let me talk about what it actually is first.

Can I

go off into the weeds here? So, with wiretap, it fills the compliance part and the testing part of of the life cycle. If you think about the rest of the tools, LiveOpen API is the lowest part. It gives you a compiler level access to a to a specification, and you've got vacuum, which does the quality analysis on the specification itself, then you have another tool called open API changes, which we can talk about later if you want, which does change detection. But wiretap fills that, How do I how do I know that my UI and my back end are actually talking the right language?

That's very cool. I have 2 questions. The code that I just had, like, a click moment when you said, oh, it does compliance between real requests from the back end and front end. Is that the same, like, concept or maybe even the same, like, library functions that are used in vacuum when you validate examples? Because it seems similar in concept.

Yes. It's so that both vacuum and wiretap are using an extension to lib open API called the lib open API validator, you know, original, very original.

Not all names can be, princess beef heavy industries.

Sometimes, you know, just so so people can find it. Right? So, the the the LibOpen API validator, will validate requests and responses, but it also has schema validation as well, but and it's part of the library. So you can take a raw schema, either it's just raw JSON or it's been, you know, transformed into a struct. And then you can validate that or you can do like an http.request.response, and it will give you the same.

And the second question is, you mentioned a few things like offline mode, proxy, like, there's a bunch of ways to deploy and use wiretap. But let's say again, I just wanna start playing around with it. Like, I don't wanna move my entire UI testing automation framework to go through a proxy. Just wanna get started. So how do I get started?

Yeah. Great. Great question. So you can run as a docker container. You don't need to install anything, or you can download the the binaries.

And on the other side of the like, this is actually deployed at Splunk right now. Right? Which has more than, 2 or 3 APIs. If you've unfamiliar with Splunk, it's a pretty big company.

Yeah. It's pretty big. We were about 8,000 people. And we're actually it's funny. I've just been sold to Cisco for 27,000,000,000.

You just touched on a topic that doesn't really relate to your products, but I I think it's fascinating. So I hope you don't mind those small tangent. You're talking about UI design and and you've mentioned previously that you've done UX work. Your website clearly demonstrates that you know a little bit about UI and UX more than the average Go developer. I'm curious how somebody who who seems to have an interest in in product, in in graphic, in in this sort of stuff, ends up doing something so low level in Go.

Yeah. That's a great question, actually. Because, really, what I want is I is I want to have an off the shelf library that would do all this work for me. And that's kind of where I start is I I wanna focus on the experience of consuming. Like, it's the it's the engaging with the product that I care about deeply.

done this. Mhmm.

Why? And then when you get down, they realize, like, it's because it's really, really hard, and it's it's nightmarish at some point. But, yes, it's more of a challenge to myself, really. That's why I did it because I want to get the experience, but I also want to be able to feel like I can do this, this low level stuff, all the way down to the very bottom of the stack.

Thank you for doing that, by the way. Yeah. I'm glad somebody's, somebody's living that nightmare so I don't have to.

And actually doubling down on that question, other than, Princess Beef Heavy Industries, you also have your own, blog, which we like to we we love content here on the show, especially good content, because we don't really produce a lot of, Go code, not Not enough to talk about in a weekly podcast anyway. So other people doing stuff, that we can talk about and, you know, introducing them, like, you're doing a blog post about wiretap and stuff like that, is great. But the first thing when I open your site is not, oh, if you need a open API specification adherence pipeline, welcome. And, like, you know, a picture of a glass building photos from the the down and a woman laughing at her salad and just a photo thing still on it. First thing you you see when you open is bright pink neon outlines, a skull, horns, piano keys, and it says code is art.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah. That's the effect I was going for. You know, I was like, wow. This is not what I was expecting. You know, one of the reasons why I I I built the blog was, a, because I wanted to do more writing. I enjoy writing. And I I like creating video comps. I've got a YouTube channel as well, which is like over a 160 subscribers, and I'm way out there in the clouds right now. So So

I'm gonna I'm gonna stop you right now. The links to the wiretap vacuum, libopenapi, princess beef, Quobix personal blog, and the YouTube channel are all in the show notes of this episode. So, you know, if you enjoyed the talk so far, stop the podcast for a second, go click on the YouTube thing, it'll immediately add to your history, go click subscribe, go do all the things. Alright. Back to your back to

you. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, doing videos and content and, you know, just starting to put content out there is, like, great. Here's a blog.

I can definitely, empathize with that. We started the show. We had, like, I think, 50 downloads on our first episode, and we're like, oh my god. That's so many people.

That was great. 50. Wow. That's huge. That's for me. That's a huge number of people.

Yeah. But but then but then, you know, you keep doing it and and more people pile on if you do things they care about. So, obviously, a lot of people care about Go, including

yourself. Oh, I

love that. You really wanna Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

I just think that not enough people care about open API. They are hard by it, but I've never talked to to people. I I've talked about, APIs in general. And I think talking about API design and do do you wanna do schema first? Do you wanna do, like, what's the architecture?

Yeah. They you you don't you don't normally find out, like, you you you always start looking for these types of tools until you're faced with a we have to get this under control. We've we've got a bunch of APIs. I'm trying to build an API. I wanna get documentation going.

There's just to complete the picture, you mentioned open API changes. It's like a change detector with the spiffiest interface I've ever seen. I think the detection the detection is not the interesting part. The diff is the interesting part, at least for me. Right? What's the experience there? You said you're experienced engineer. So what's the experience of open API changes?

Yeah. That's a great question. So, the like with vacuum and every other tool out there, you know, with well, vacuum for now, there's there's changes coming, new stuff coming. But, if you think about, like, a linting tool or a diff tool or or, you know, a change detection tool, it just gives you a list of this was changed, this was changed, and, like, it's like a like a report, and that's that's fine. But OpenAPI as a document structure is a tree or at a graph, actually, when you think of polymorphism and references, it becomes a huge graph.

Trying to explore you know, you you went about how you developed it. Would did this come out of a, like, thing you had to do at work, or were you just, like, inspired to take a what what I'm asking is, are these tools utilitarian first, or are they I have a cool idea I have to do

it first. Oh, it was all you to tell it all utilitarian, all of it. There's nothing that I build doesn't have a purpose. It's not just, hey. This is a fun thing.

Mhmm. Very cool.

Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate that.

So libOpenAPI, if you need to parse go. Vacuum, if you need to lint your open API files. OpenAPI changes, just slightly more boringly named.

I know. I know. It's the most boring name of a lot, really.

If it's good for SEO, it's good for SEO. And you have one of them, so you so you can add all the rest, call them, ask your daughter to call you for any names, you know. So open API changes for, diff, beautiful diff, tool and, like, change detection over time and wiretap for, like, compliance, like, schema adherence, whether on your machine or CI or from unit from, like, recordings, from HP archive recordings.

Yes. Yes. Exactly right. You've nailed it. You could That's it. Better than I could. That's

all? There's there's

some other things in there as well. There's there's there's a couple of things I've been building.

I'm joking. That's not much. I'm not.

There's so there's so many more things that aren't quite ready yet that have big potential in my opinion, in in my very humble opinion. One of the things I've been working on is, state management. And state management in the UI is, you know, traditionally pretty complicated for large scale applications. You know, something like like the vSphere client. State management is a real problem.

Well, there's something to expect down the pipeline at least.

Yes. There's there's much more to come. There's there's a lot there's a whole platform I'm building as well for all of this stuff, by the way, which is not, again, not quite ready yet.

Who's using, Princess Beef stuff today?

There's actually quite a few, businesses that I know of, that are using it.

I before you start, I can probably say that, Orca is, using it. It's super it's been super useful.

Oh, yeah. Got me that set. A I appreciate that. Thank you. So ORCA being one of them, there's a there's a few other companies that have heavily invested in some of the the lower level tooling like Lib Open API.

should be, or they

fork it and they use their own version. Cool.

I so I've been collecting the emails. I just haven't had a chance to build a tool to send anything out yet. So I I wanted a way to be able to make sure that there was a way for me to contact people that are interested. I just haven't haven't got there. I am planning on it, though. I I definitely am planning on it.

So sign up and, be ready in, 15 years when, Corbi's finished implementing SMTP from the ground up using Go.

Yeah. Absolutely. The only way.

There's the YouTube channel which we mentioned. There's also in the show notes. And there's a conference coming up that you speak or you're gonna speak at. Right?

Yes. I'm speaking at a conference called API Days. It's in New York. It's, April 30th May 1st, and there's a dedicated open API track there that I'll be talking about, you know, talking about the tools. So if you're in the area, please stop by and say hi.

You know what? I can just it's kind of hard to imagine. You see the website and then it's very different from, your website which is like dark, you know, it's like a it's a nice looking compared to corporate stuff, it's well designed. And then I see the partners. Right?

One day.

One day, man.

One day. One day. That's that's the goal. That's that's the dream right there. Just squeeze it. I just squeeze it just right between them. Yes. So yeah.

There's There's API days. Link is in the show notes as well. It's at April 30th. Right?

April 30th May 1st. Yes.

Cool. Well, Kopiks, thanks for coming on. As, as we've mentioned, we always end our, interviews with I don't know if this is a stumper question. Last last year, it was a stumper question. This year, it's maybe less of a stumper question. But it's it's a, I don't know, a standard question. I I don't know how long you've been using Go. When did you start with Go?

So I started using Go, the in December 20 2015.

You have the month down. Do you know what date?

It was it was December 23rd.

2 days before Christmas. So you know it was what time it would you know what time it was too? No. Okay.

No. I don't remember that part. I don't

even remember exactly what year it was. I could probably figure it out. So the the question is, when you started learning Go, were there any surprises? What surprised you? What was most challenging for you picking up the new language?

Yeah. The most challenging thing for me was because I I spent 10 years, like, focusing purely on, like, Java and JavaScript. Mhmm. But those are the kind of Java was my choice of all back end. And, you know, being, you know, overly, obfuscated with this object orientation, coming to go and trying to translate between how do I think about inheritance and polymorphism in a way that translates into Go?

Nice. I had a similar experience, so I won't I won't go into it. I'm not the interviewee here, but, I can I can identify it completely? I'm I'm impressed that it only took you 3 weeks or so to get over it. I think it took me a lot longer than that.

It's I I knew that I was banging my head. I that I was doing something wrong. I was missing something because it was just I was getting more and more frustrated and blaming the language. I was like, this language is wrong. I was like, no. No. No.

I am wrong.

I am wrong.

Very good. A little bit of humility can go a long way when learning a new language.

So Indeed.

Well, thanks again for coming on. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for tapping our wires, I guess.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate your time.

Awesome. And

if you wanna follow-up with, any of Kovik's stuff, again, all the links are in the show notes. Thanks for coming. Talk to you all next week.