This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. And I'm Vanessa Zoltan. I am the co-host of Hot and Bothered, a podcast about rom-coms. And Let's Ask Taylor Swift, a podcast that looks closely at the lyrics. Taylor Swift. And most relevant to today, I'm a non-denominational chaplain, and I teach chaplaincy at Harvard Divinity School. We came up with this whole idea about spiritual care for the non-religious because...
You're teaching this class at Harvard Divinity School right now. So can you tell us a little bit about that class and how it came to be? Yeah, it's really exciting because I started...
at Divinity School about 15 years ago. And as a non-religious person in Divinity School, there just were no pathways for a career, even though I was like, this is necessary. People get married. People have... grief and people die who don't believe in God and don't want to be part of a community so we need atheist chaplains in this moment where you know, Harvard is hiring someone specifically to teach chaplains how to deliver spiritual care for non-religious people feels like a really big...
step toward acknowledging that, you know, one third of Americans don't believe in traditional religion. People are going to church less and less. And there's, you know, which you've talked about a lot, there's the rise of loneliness and isolation. And I think especially in this moment, we need community more than ever. And so I'm really excited to be the one who's teaching this class, but I'm more, I'm just excited.
cited that's like an institution that goes back to the 17th century and is like very stodgy is like no no this is now a skill that we need chaplains to have of taking care of non-religious people Is there anything, like, I think of the word chaplain, and it just has this incredible connotation of Christianity. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Why is that?
Also, even just like div schools, right, which is how people talk about divinity school. Lots of people go to div school who do not want to become like religious leaders. Right. They just want to think about these questions on a larger scale. Almost all of these div schools were founded as Christian institutions and as places where people went to become religious leaders, specifically Christian leaders. Yeah.
Is it possible to like disarticulate yourself from that foundation? Do you know what I mean? Totally. Yeah. I think not without sounding like an asshole, but I try every day. Right. I just presented at. clinical pastoral education didactic, like training tomorrow. That's a huge, huge title. Exactly. Like it was six people. I went into a room of six chaplains in training at a memory care. facility to talk about taking care of atheists as they age.
You know, the woman was like, Vanessa's this humanist. And I was like, no, I'm not. And she was like, Vanessa is right. Like a chaplain. I'm like, only kind of right. Like you just want to put all of these asterisks on it. And. I think all the asterisks are really important. I'm trying personally to reclaim the word atheist from like... Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher, like people who mock the religious. Yeah. I'm like, I can I cannot believe in God and still not judge religious folks. So yeah.
Yeah, the answer is no. You know how people have, like, color theory that, like, words are synesthesia? Like... colors that come up when you say words yeah like when I hear atheist I see like black and like a devil pentagram you know what I mean Which is not the case, but it's just there's a branding problem. There's a branding problem. And I don't want to spend my life like tweaking other people's language. But the reason is because America is a super...
Christian country and like right the irony that in England the church is part of the state and yet no one cares about religion and here church and state are separate and yet Every president says God bless America at the end of every flipping speech. Yeah. Right. Like I, I don't, I'm, I am a Jewish atheist and chaplain is the best word for what I do. Yeah. Yeah.
I do think that it's good for us to like acknowledge that very early. Oh, I get into fights with people because they'll be like, I'm Unitarian and like not Christian. And I'm like, no, Unitarianism. is Christian in most. Yes, it is. And they're like, no, it's not. And I'm like, if you can't see that it's Christian, right? Like, because.
Christianity is the default monoculture, right? It's like whiteness. It's like you don't see it because to you it's the default. But as a Jew, I'm telling you it's Christian. Right. And just like the lineage. Yeah. Yeah.
Unitarian is about unifying the three, right? Like it is Christian. And so I think it's really important to point that out, the ways that these structures are invisible. Do you feel like in... the contempt because a lot of people I think do not have any familiarity with what like divinity school is now or like the people who are training to be chaplains like I know a lot of people in my life who like later in life have gone back to train to be chaplains because
doing that sort of work not in a religious way right but just like caring for people in crisis is something that is close to their heart um and so what like who goes to Div school now? What is the landscape? What is the feeling? What is the vibe? I will say it really depends on the Div school.
I mean like really, really, really a lot. I live just a couple of miles from Gordon-Conwell Seminary, which is also a div school and it's an evangelical div school that invited me to talk and like wanted to hear from me.
like very conservative and then harvard divinity school is just like the island of misfit toys it's like queer folks atheists people who love catholicism but because they're gay can't be priests and so we're trying to figure out how to live in conversation with their catholicism and yet know that they can't you know follow traditional paths there are
But, you know, there obviously are more traditional students there. Union Theological Seminary has like this great history of liberation theology. I think a lot of non-Christians are really drawn to that, but it is a Christian seminary. And then places. that you wouldn't necessarily think of as Christian, like Yale are Christian. Right, or Princeton. Right, Princeton. So I grew up Presbyterian and like...
I was always so, I was like, oh my gosh, my pastors went to Princeton Seminary. I was like, that's just kind of like where a lot of Presbyterians go. I mean, it's still a great school. But it wasn't like the same thing as some. Someone from my small town going to Princeton for undergraduate, I would say. Okay, so another thing.
This is just a tricky conversation, I think, for people who are like super, super religious sometimes, but also for non-religious people. Yeah. And I think the best way that we can make this episode accessible to everyone is a little bit of table setting. What are we talking about when we talk about spiritual care? So what we're talking about is taking care of people in non-therapeutic ways. So if you think about therapy as dealing with...
something pathological, something out of the norm. You are... That is not the way that, you know, you want to walk through your default state. You are dealing with tremendous anxiety and it is really getting in the way of your life. That is something you go to therapy for. Spiritual care is when... you are going through the motions of life and it is you need someone to tend to part of you that.
I really think that just like other roles don't. So best case scenario, you have really loving parents who die at 95. and you're 65 and you will grieve them right like that is the best case scenario it is not
pathological or bad to be sad and go through grief. And your friends might not be the most helpful people. They might be uncomfortable with death. They might be dealing with their own trauma. And so having someone in your life who is there to hold space, to use really difficult language for your grief and not be made uncomfortable by your grief and really like allow you to. steer whatever it is that you need and really, you know.
Someone who has experienced leading spiritual care will have like a toolkit of things that they can offer you in those moments in order to get through them. And it's why we go to people for weddings. Like it's a skill running a wedding.
right like because of youtube we can all be our own plumbers to some extent and friends can officiate our weddings but like there are times in our lives where for various reasons you do want sort of a spiritual care professional to come in What strikes me about that description is I think because in part...
As fewer and fewer people are members of churches and or of other religious organizations are what are called broadly nuns. Yeah. Like no, no religious affiliation. That people have sought that role. in therapy. Right. And that, you know, it might be the difference between a therapist and like a psychologist, right? You know, when I hear... advertisements for like better help and other like apps right a lot of what they're hailing is are you going through a tough time yeah
Do you want to talk to someone? Right. Right. And then also sometimes people have that friend. Yes. Who is essentially they're like. spiritual caregiver. They're the person who really stewards them through difficult times. And people have that skill in their friend group without ever being trained for it, although you'd probably be even better at it if you were trained.
But that to me is interesting because a lot of what you're describing, I'm like, that's what people I know. That's when they're like, oh, I need to find a therapist. Yeah. Not I need to find a spiritual caregiver. totally i do think that you find spiritual care providers in certain settings they are hanging out in hospitals they are attending prisons they are going to places where friends have a really hard time showing up But I'll say...
Because I am I'm an atheist and I found out two years ago now that my husband was cheating on me and I found a therapist and we found a couples therapist. And I went to my friend who's a priest because part of what I needed to. What do I feel about vows and promises? What value do I want to hold myself to?
if any. That was kind of the only place that I could think of where someone would be trained in offering me different perspectives on that. And I trusted him. I knew he wasn't going to be like, well, a vow to God, right? Like, stay in Batman. right but I just think that yeah there are moments where we feel like we need some sort of spiritual care have you had a moment where you're like I feel like I need to talk
To someone about something that it's like not therapy. I just need to pour out my heart. I think that interestingly. Writing often is that thing for me? Yeah, totally. Right? Like writing is my spiritual care? Yes. I would call it a sacred practice. It's an imperfect modality. And even when I was growing up in the church, like my pastors were very important people to me, but they were not.
that place for confiding. And I think much more like there were youth leaders in my church and stuff like that who became that for me. Yeah. But I think what we're both pointing to is just a paucity. Yeah. providers yes and so we turn to one person in our lives and that could be a therapist or it could be a friend or it could be a partner who then becomes like like it's too much for any one person I think
The other thing about going to a chaplain is that often it's for a much shorter time period. So you're a therapist, right? Part of therapy is having a certain kind of relationship and a certain kind of dynamic with your therapist. And trust has to be built over time. in order for projection to go a certain way, right? But when you go in theory to a chaplain, it's like, I'm going through this hard time. And having someone who has no vested interest in your life is actually really helpful.
Going to my minister friend who like he doesn't care long term in the best way whether or not I stay married. He has as much context as I want to give him and no more. And so having these people sort of come in for brief moments, I do think is just it's a helpful extra perspective sometimes. Yes. Absolutely. So we're going to get into our questions from listeners, which are actually really fantastic. So this first one comes from Catherine.
My question is, what makes some rituals feel profound and meaningful while others feel empty or performative? Is it the symbolism, the shared experience, the historical weight, or something else? Okay, so what comes to mind when you think of like a performative communal ritual? So I do think that this is all in the eye of the beholder. There was a really interesting thing that happened at...
Harvard Divinity School, a tree got chopped down and there were two really big reactions to this. Some people felt as though this tree was murdered and that there was like... deep corruption around the tree being murdered in order to make space for a building and that capitalism had murdered this tree and that authorities had lied. And then half of the people were like, that's a flippant tree. And like, we love trees and let's replant a tree, but who cares?
and there was a funeral for the tree and there were people at this tree funeral weeping and there were people on the outside of the circle being like this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard seen in my life And so I do think sometimes, not all the time, but I do think that there isn't necessarily a secret formula. We'll talk about some formulas to ritual. But I do think sometimes it comes down to taste. Yeah, that makes sense.
I think about the act of communion within the Christian church and how it's like incredibly macabre to be like, you are literally consuming the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. And yet, for me... You know, I don't believe in substantiation anymore, which is the transfer of the belief that it is actually the literal body and blood of Christ. But I do love the squishy little breath.
Right. Because it is a ritual of my childhood that brings a comfort and the various calls and responses from the church. And I think, though, that that is also a matter of taste. Some people are traumatized by their church upbringing and are like, if you make me take communion, I will run out of this church screaming. Right, right, right, right. But even just like it's in bad taste to drink the blood of your God. I don't know.
Or even that it's in bad taste for us to be laughing about drinking the blood of Christ. You can get away with it more than I can. Atheist Jew. I'm not laughing, guys. But that does make sense to me because even something like the Pledge of Allegiance, I think, to a lot of people.
Apart from like the jingoistic nationalistic component, like they feel like it's tacky. Yeah. Or like fascistic to put your hand over your heart. Right. And also talk about no separation of church and state. One of my best friends did write. a book called The Power of Ritual, Caspar Turk Kyle. Yes, yes. Big fan. Yes, me too.
And he talks about with ritual that it's intention, attention and repetition. Yes. And so I do want to say that like those are the three things that we would say are like part of a well-structured ritual. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it like. feels good it can still feel empty okay a great example of this i think is there are a lot of peloton instructors yeah and yoga yoga instructors um athletic instructors just generally who have rituals built into their practice yes
And so sometimes like one of my favorites, Christine, it's I am, I can, I will, I do. And she oftentimes during rides, like it's like sometimes it's prolonged and you know what's coming. And like she had. you do visualizations of it like all this sort of thing I love her that to me does it just doesn't work yes right it just it is not my taste in ritual but then there were other things like there is like a visualization that does that i'm like this works for me right and
It doesn't mean that that person and their ritual is bad. It just means that it does or does not work for you. Right. And like she's very much hailing a certain type of person with her ritual. Yeah. I have the same thing with Robin, who I love. And whenever she's like, you're doing this for your ancestors, I'm like, no, I'm not, lady. My grandparents could not care less if I hit my tabaticals.
I love you. No. One of my students for her final project designed a funeral for Diet Coke. And it ended up. And she did it on purpose to be silly, right? Yeah. But she was like, she did the math on how much plastic, like how much just like truly environmental catastrophe has happened because of Diet Coke in terms of straw use and plastic use. Water use and that it is designed to have no nourishment. Yes. And she had everybody who liked Diet Coke, like say something about Diet Coke.
And it was this really beautiful metaphor about how if we are going to be committed to trying to have a better planet, we're going to have to sacrifice things that do matter to us. And it is going to have to hurt. And it had an intention. It had a tension. And the repetition that it had was like it followed a funeral format. And it was very silly. And also.
I like didn't do a poll afterwards, but I was very moved and the class felt very moved. And I feel like if you tell people today I went to a Diet Coke funeral, that would be not to a lot of people's taste. Right. But it can be. It can become incredibly meaningful. Yeah. I personally love, like, on...
You if you tell me about some corny shit that's going to happen, I'm like, but then like you go and you say nice things about each other. And then I'm like, oh, that was really meaningful. Like I really appreciated it. Right. So I think sometimes there's that.
separation between like you say out loud what a diet coke funeral is yeah is different from the experience itself i personally experienced this with like praise music in the christian church like if you look at the lyrics or like the style and now that i have distance from it i'm like oh my gosh like i said gosh purposely there to not be blasphemous i guess um
And but when I was in it, like nothing was more moving. Yeah. Like the moment at the end of singing our God is an awesome God when you like we all would get super quiet and then yell Jesus and it would echo across the lake. The height of meaning, right? But now that's not meaningful to me. I guess our question here is like, what makes it work? I don't know. I do think some technical stuff, right?
A good ritual needs to have a beginning and an ending. And all the mini parts within it need to have beginnings and endings. It has to be sort of clear. And I do think that any good ritual has a moment for people to connect with each other, whether it's turning to the person next to you and saying, like, go in peace. Right. But all of that is like necessary, but not sufficient.
If you're going to be disgusted by it and therefore be taken out of it. Totally. Like it doesn't matter how well designed of a ritual it is, how well intended of a ritual it is. I also think if the ritual has a goal. outside of the ritual that right like if it's we're gonna do this ritual because we're trying to convert you we're gonna do this ritual because we want to sell something to you right right right the ritual needs to be about itself yeah
That's interesting. How do you, with like your pilgrimages, the stuff that you do with common ground pilgrimages, like how do you incorporate ritual into that? So we... If you sign up to go on a literary pilgrimage for like six days with strangers, you've self-selected into a certain kind of thing, right? So there's that. I would say we, for the most part, under...
ritualize. So we have like a welcome game that we play and then we have certain practices that we do every night where you share your favorite quote from the day, either that someone said, a moment, a quote from the text. And it's based on the medieval Christian reading practice of Florilegia, but also we all know what quote journals are. And then I will say I bring a level of cynicism that I think is actually helpful.
to the rituals on the pilgrimages our pilgrimages are very earnest and we have an hour of silent walking every day and that is because i need an hour of quiet every day and like i'm talking the whole time during a pilgrimage and it is so i am nice to people And we've like turned it into this beautiful thing where I think we all need more silence and to listen to the birds. But it's actually just like Vanessa needs quiet time. And then we have, you know, we do.
Something inspired by a Seder, but it is just like an intentional dinner with four designed questions based on the text. And so we're constantly scaffolding it for people being like, this is inspired by the Jewish Seder. But we're going to use Taylor Swift lyrics as like the basis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I do think humor and holding it lightly is key if you're going to use like big R heavy rituals. Yeah.
No, that makes sense to me. I keep thinking about this on these cycling trips that I go on at the very end. You just kind of go around and say like. what made the experience meaningful and i think oftentimes on like trips you don't have the opportunity to actually do that sort of reflection because oftentimes it's just you and your partner you and your friend or whatever like you know it's like this hotel was cool
Instead of like, I really pushed myself in these ways. And like, I met people that I wouldn't have otherwise. And it was like, that was really meaningful to me. just having that opportunity to vocalize it is, but it's very loose. Like no one's like, everyone go around the circle and you must say what you are feeling in this moment. Oh, see, that is one of the only things we're strict about. So we... Design people to bless another person.
On the first day. And we're like, so Anne, you're going to bless Melody. And you guys don't know each other. We intentionally assign people who don't know each other. And that way, over the course of the trip, you have to sort of observe Melody. And we model what a...
Blessing is, which is just like, Melody, I love how prepared you are for everything. I think that that is awesome. And what I wish for you is that other people take care of you in the way that you take care of other people, right? We model something simple.
We do go around in a circle and make everybody say something nice about one other person. Okay, I like that. I like that. No, no, no, no. But that's nice about someone else, right? Instead of like saying, you don't have to necessarily, at least in the beginning.
draw from that a tremendous well of personal experience and reflection. But it's amazing. We have not done a series of blessings where people don't cry. And it is like the most skeptical people at the beginning are always the ones who are like, what has happened to me?
And I'm just like, the ritual worked. This is bringing back something from my college years. So I was in a sorority and sororities and fraternities have a lot of rituals in part because it bounds you to each other and also secrecy. And like the secret ones are all like, oh, this is how you tap your index finger when you shake hands. But we had a ritual, which probably was borrowed from in some way from Christian foot washing.
instead it was you would go up you'd pick someone else from the circle and you'd wash each other's hands in the center of the circle and no one could hear what you were saying yeah but two people would go up there and it was really used as a way to like forgive people fascinating like to kind of like deal with some shit wow yeah because it always happened at the end of the year
And did you get to pick who's. Yes. You got it. You like you chose. Like I would stand up. Let's say I had some shit with Melody. Yeah. I mean, come on. I would stand up. I would go over to Melody, grab her hand and bring her in. And then I would say like whatever I needed to.
say to her did someone's hands get washed like eight times like the the shit stirring person like their hands are bleeding by the end but that would be super funny i bet that person didn't even show up to the ritual But and then, you know, but we used the same music that we used for all of our rituals, which is.
and yeah on repeat on a cd player um but i do like there was no like everyone has to get their hands washed everyone has to go up it was just a space right and so sometimes what ritual does or provides is a space, right? Yeah. Div school people would say a container. I had a meeting with someone in a totally different context. And he said, Vanessa, thank you so much for creating a container for that. I was like, oh, you went to div school.
And he was like, yes, I did 20 years ago. And I was like, container, container, not space. That is, that is how you know. Hey, everyone. I wanted to tell you about another podcast that I love from friend of the pod, Sam Sanders. I'm sure you remember him from our... semi-controversial Bradley Cooper episode and the surprisingly popular episode on that Netflix show about the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. Sam's podcast is called, wait for it, The Sam Sanders Show.
It's an entertainment show that uncovers what makes the culture tick and goes deep with creators who shape what we watch, see, hear, and read. Sam is an amazing interviewer and he is always insightful. He always has like, I don't know, he has that like particular skill of being able to really segue between topics. This is like, I'm always like, great segue. Like Sam just.
does it uh he's super funny he i think is unlike most people that i hear on podcasts i love the show so go check out the sam sanders show it's from kcrw it comes out every friday Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, our next question gets at something that I've heard as a lot of millennials have left religion. This comes from Katie Rose.
My friends and I often lament the lack of community building for non-religious folks. My sister became very Christian in college and then returned to unsure about religion a decade later, but she learned how to build and create community in the church and it truly serves her.
Our neighbors just immigrated here and already have a huge support system through their church, while we struggle to find anyone to help when we need it. Is there a secular version of church we're just unaware of? How do we build community? All right. I think about this constantly, especially as I'm finishing my book on people building community and friendship. And I've seen this actually most acutely with the guys that I've interviewed. And my theory.
Is that guys in particular do not have models of intimacy that aren't around like guys hang out side by side instead of face to face. Right. Except for. If they were raised in a religious tradition where once a week they got together and like read their religious text and talked about their lives. Yeah. And so. Guys who grew up in that or are part of it still have a lot of practice or modeling or just like had internalized that like.
Oh, it's okay for guys to get together and talk about their feelings. Like sometimes we use a religious text as the way we interpret our feelings. Yeah. But otherwise, like we can sit face to face and talk about these things and like pray for one another. Praying for one another is a tremendous act of intimacy, allowing yourself to have someone else speak to a larger power about what they wish for you, as we were just referencing with the blessings, right?
So I absolutely agree with learning a lot of those skills. Like even my least favorite part of church, when you... at the very beginning when you greet the people and you just are like good morning like you just have to walk around and be like good morning good morning also a very good skill yep
And for some of those people, the only time someone is touching them that week. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Or showing up to things, even though you know that that annoying person is going to be there. Yeah. But that annoying person is part of what makes the community. Like there's so many. Things that I think you learn from being part of these organizations. So what is your thinking on things that serve a similar role? Yeah. I just want to say like.
I think what you were just talking about can't be overstated. Mormonism. is pretty horrible to women and queer folks and black people, right? And the state of Utah has like the highest literacy rate and the lowest homeless rate, right? Like it's just both. The hope for me is to like take the good and leave the bad to the best of our ability.
And so there are some places, and Casper in his book Power of Ritual talks about this in his book, places like CrossFit, right? Like there are places where you can leave where you currently live, join another CrossFit box. And like people will take care of you. Yep.
There's a pay to play angle there. It's like a little complicated and it's not my thing, but it really means a lot to a lot of people and I think serves really similar needs. And there are all sorts of spaces like that. I do think that there are. If you live in a big city, there is someone trying to do this. There are a lot of alternative communities that people are trying to create to do exactly this. Ethical societies. We have local groups that meet.
to treat like Taylor Swift is sacred together. And we always try to encourage people, you know, you're bonding over your love of a secular thing. And then we try to steal the... good bits of the spiritual technologies to help people bond over the secular thing yeah um but like i really do think the way to do it now is to do it
based on something that you love because then you will stick with it so if it's taylor swift join a taylor swift fan club and meet in person so that if someone in your group breaks their leg, you can bring them soup and same to you. But like if it's volunteering at a library, no matter where you move, there will be a library and then you'll have a skill to offer. But you're more likely to stick to whatever if it is something you genuinely love. Yeah. know, we talk about something is sacred.
If it has these three components, which are faith, rigor and community. And faith means the more time you spend with it, the more gifts it will give you. So the more often I cook for a local shelter, the more often I cook for the shelter.
the more gifts it will give me. I cook more often with my kids because of it. I get better at certain recipes. I recognize certain people. It gives me more and more. It gives the community more and more. Rigor. I have a commitment that I... do this once a month there are months that i absolutely feel way too stressed to do it and absolutely don't want to do it but you do it anyway right like and that is rigor and then community i get my kids on it
in on it with me and like if I had to do it alone I wouldn't do it alone you need a buddy and if I didn't have people relying on me on the other end right like I wouldn't do it and cooking is one of my sacred practices. I love to cook. It calms me down. I listen to music. And so finding something you love and then bringing those three things of faith, rigor, and community, I think is how you start.
And then this place would notice if I went missing, right? Like if I didn't show up on the first Monday of the month. And if I moved to another city, I would find another shelter and know how to be helpful pretty quickly. And so I do think there are... It's different. It's different. Church offers something unique. Church also has a lot of bad stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. And there, you know, there are churches, like I've heard a lot of my readers talk about getting plugged in to churches that have a lot of infrastructure that does things that aren't just related to.
the belief system yeah right so like people who are atheists who belong to a church because of the social justice work yeah it does absolutely right i know that there are churches in my area that do this and that people like and the pastors are they're like that's fine like it's not like you're hiding a dirty secret no absolutely and the reality that i think about a lot is that historically there have been a lot of atheists who went to church
Because it's what you did and it was the way you plugged into community. And I have... active concerns about churches shutting down i'm like where like where are the blanket drives gonna happen where are people gonna congregate in an emergency like where is the cheap preschool going to happen
Like all like churches are spaces that are sustainable in part because of their tax exemption, which, you know, I know that that's not unproblematic. But at the same time, they have been able to remain community spaces for things like.
shelters and like providing a lot of community infrastructure in a not like i'm going to convert you way i don't know if people understand this like how many girl scouts meetings happen in church basements like that sort of thing are harry potter and the sacred text groups met in church basements, right?
Again, I'm an atheist who's like super pro healthy relationships with religion. And like some of my best friends are ministers and rabbis. These are really important spaces. This is just like we're just talking about things.
Totally, totally. One thing that I think about, like on my island, there is a... local grange which granges are like um a social club that was historically associated with people who were farmers or in ag in some way and but it has the building right like it the building is still here and so the grange itself still is alive but it's a social club and it's a great way to
meet people intergenerationally yeah um to do a lot of like the volunteer work on the island it also houses a church it also hosts honky tonks like there is a lot of things like a lot of different vectors coming in yeah
And that, like, if you wanted, if you moved to this island and you immediately wanted to get plugged in with people, like, that's what I would tell. Like, you wanted to be a person who's like, oh, my gosh, I need emergency child care. Yeah. Someone just to come over and just sit in my house for two hours.
hours going to that the meetings every month like and talking to people at those meetings and doing that that's how you're going to make that structure I do think it's slightly different than a church because a church is so desperate for members oftentimes that they reach out so aggressively that you get into the fold immediately, whereas I think with some other organizations...
Like, even volunteering at a soup kitchen, like, it's going to take time. Yes. And something that we talk a lot about on the show and I talk about in the newsletter is, like, I think we have become very... optimized in the way that we think about how these things should work totally and when you don't feel that feeling the first time that you show up at something you're like well if it's not for me it's not going to work right instead of
oh, I've been going for a year and it's not working, then yeah, it's probably not going to work. Right. Totally. I mean, I was just going to repeat what you said. You have to be in this stuff for the long game, right? You're playing a long game in community. building especially okay so next question is from julie it seems like between the wellness industry and online cult leaders
There's never been easier distribution of ideas for bad actors willing to exploit the core need people have when they're seeking alternative spiritual care. What are the telltale signs of a false friend in spiritual care? Or what vulnerable impulse should people be aware of trying not to feed? Love this question. Beautiful question. Just beautifully phrased too. False friend. Great.
What does this make you think of immediately? I came up with like a rubric because I was like, this is such an important question. Okay. First of all, if there's no way to engage with it at all in a free way. I would be very skeptical, right? There is a free way to listen to your podcast. And if you want to financially support you and Melody more and subscribe to different levels of the newsletter, you can. But you are offering care and love.
and information for free and every church should and like if if you have to pay to play i would say be skeptical if they aren't telling you the limit of what they have to offer, be skeptical. Oh, yeah. So if there's secret information, right? Or if they're like, I'm going to solve all your problems. Like, right? If they're not like...
I am going to give you some info. I'm just using you as an example. If I'm going to give you some cultural context, but if you want to learn more, here's the bibliography of other texts, right? If they are telling you that they are going to solve everything for you. But like leave. Bad vibe. And they should be giving you something that matters to you, not just asking to sacrifice. But the big thing I'll say, and Anne, I'm going to just quote religion.
You know it by its fruits. And the way that I define fruits is if it makes you better at loving. Right. And like face cream is not going to make you better at loving. I mean, like, maybe you can justify it. Like, it actually makes me feel more confident, therefore, right? Raw milk is not going to make you better at loving. It's not. And so that's how I...
Right. Like that's the check I do is like, is this going to make me a more loving person, more likely to be nice to my very annoying neighbor? Right. Like that. That's the check to me. Yeah. I the thing I think about is. If you can sense that it's manipulating you in some way, and this is difficult, but if there is parts of it...
like pretty surface level parts of it that are touching manipulation centers. Yeah. That are making you cry every single time you watch like an Instagram reel from this person. Yeah. Right. That are using. the recovery of vulnerable people right or vulnerable like dogs or i'm trying to they're using things that like are very easy to make you feel big emotions and thus associate those big emotions with something that
It's not necessarily like it doesn't have the rigor that you described. Right. There's nothing hard. But on the flip side, it shouldn't all be hard. Right. Like I think about the gospel of hard 75. Do you know about hard 75? No. So the hard 75 challenge is like all these things like you have to read 75 pages and walk or exercise 75 minutes.
and like do something like it's all about sacrifice and restriction right so like if it's like a diet yeah it's not a religious practice I think yeah or right like If it's only a diet. If it's only a diet. I can't remember like which jerky YouTuber says this. But like if it's just if it's promising big things. Right. It's like if you make.
your bed every day young men you are starting your day with a sense of duty and responsibility and then it's going to change your whole life it's like well that's a really big promise that I really don't think making my bed is going to do so like big promises it's the way we're talking about i'm like this is also how you avoid toxic men
Or super toxic components of religion. Like we're not just talking about gurus. We're talking about like high control Christianity or other high control religions. Chabad in Judaism. Yeah. Right. Right. No, and I'm thinking about something like, you know, we're recording this during Ramadan. And I think that like...
Fasting throughout the day, that's not part of what I'm thinking about in terms of restriction. Of course. Fasting can be part of a religious practice. But there is ritual associated with this fasting. There is intense import associated with it.
it right or even like you know with lent or whatever it is um but doing it just to do it and just for self-denial like that to me there's a there's a difference also every religion that has ritual fasting has these very important exceptions of like yes unless you're on medication where you can't fast unless right and i feel like that is another way to tell it's like are they considerate of nuance then
okay and if they're like no no matter what fasting yeah like that again bad vibe yeah okay do you think that melody did we describe this did i describe it like i was gonna bring up the angler fish i was like if someone
was watching if somebody there was like a spiritual guru who like did the equivalent of showing you the anglerfish tiktok video be wary that's what i'm trying to say or like well it brought to mind for me this woman who is blowing up on my algorithm, who is like, the answer to everything is
cleaning your house and you are making it too difficult and you're just being lazy and it doesn't have to take you all day and fortunately I follow Casey Davis who is like this is all bullshit that goes back like 200 years with roots in white supremacy um yeah But people are like, but I love her. It's tough love. And she tells it like it is. And now my house is clean. If anyone says tough love, be wary. Yes.
That's a great shortcut. If anyone following that person says like part of why I like them is tough love. Be wary. Yeah, that would be my general thing. And it also goes back to your point about like, does this make me a more loving person? Right. Like cleaning your house does not make you a more loving person. No. In fact, I think it makes you a less loving person. Okay.
Last question. This one is about best practices for spiritual care that don't reinforce harmful ideologies. Let's hear from Anjali. I have spent a lot of time thinking on my own about how to orient my life around my ethics and values without falling back on dogma, but I struggle when it comes to doing this in community. When I have tried in the past, I've experienced some common themes.
I often encounter people who have left some kind of Christianity, and while they have separated from their church, their frameworks still come from that tradition. Or, there is a lot of romanticization of other religious traditions. As someone who is Indian American raised Hindu,
I'm very sensitive to this because the global north loves to romanticize and fetishize whatever version of Hinduism they have been very intentionally sold, usually a sanitized version that marginalizes harmful casteism, sectarian violence, and Islamophobia. So I guess my question is, what are some safeguards people can put in place while exploring their spirituality that doesn't cause harm to marginalized people, either through white capitalist consumption,
like the Yoga Wellness Ayahuasca Retreat Industrial Complex, or by spreading sanitized histories. Such a good question. Where do you want to start here? I feel like you're the only person I would want to answer this. That's so flattering. And we'll see how I do. I'm going to start by talking about what bothers me as a Jew and going out from there.
tech sabbath does not bother me when people are like i right shabbat is the second holiest holiday in judaism you have yom kippur and then there are 52 days a year that are the second holiest day it is a commandment Keep the Sabbath. And so it's really, really sacred. And when people are like, I take a tech Sabbath. I turn off my phone and computer every Friday night to Saturday night.
I don't feel like they are belittling. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't feel like they are claiming authenticity or fetishizing Tech Sabbath. But when I get invited by a non-Jew to a Seder. No. Which I have. I'm like, no. What you can do is say, I love satyrs and so inspired by that, I'm going to host a dinner party with questions. I think there's something about like claiming authenticity.
Tech Sabbath isn't pretending to be Shabbat, but a Seder led by a non-Jew is still pretending to be Seder. And the metaphor I came up with is like... It would be like quoting a book. So if you take a quote from my book and put it in your article, maybe that even makes me feel good. It definitely doesn't make me feel bad. If you take a whole paragraph, I'm like, okay, maybe you can. Could have figured out a way to.
put this in your own words but it's starting to feel icky if you like pull a chapter of my book and claim it as your own or photocopy it and hand it out without right like that feels really bad but then if you encourage all of your friends to buy my book right like there just are gradations and like ways to do these things where you're like you can do ayahuasca
Because you're like, I believe in drugs creating, you know, a different plane in my head. I don't know. I don't I don't do drugs because I'm on antidepressants. But if you're like, and now I feel more connected to a native. experience right like it is about the how not the what to me yeah no that makes sense I also like how how does yoga fit into this I the first thing I said is like
I think that there are ethical ways to do yoga. Yeah. Right? Like, I don't think that yoga in and of itself causes harm to marginalized people, depending on how you do it. So I understand a frustration of like now there's a bunch of white ladies at the Y doing yoga with no sense of the history that it comes from. And also. As long as like there isn't someone pretending to be an ex.
expert in Sanskrit, right? Like there's a how to me of like, this has been really proven to be helpful for joints and like, and we're going to take this great thing and use it. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, no, it's like to me, it's like a difference between like someone doing yoga at the Y and someone going to a yoga retreat led by other white people.
And then, like, coming home and getting a Sanskrit letter, like, tattooed on their arm. Right. Like, but what about, okay, this is another interesting one. Like, I know people who have gone and done, like.
six month intensives with yoga teachers in India. And some of them are white and some of them are not, but they're not Indian. Like, so what is the... I what how do we work at that I mean and I don't think like this is I'm not trying to ask us like okay every case right here's your here's your like yes no vent like your diagram of how whether or not this is offensive but I think that that's like an example that
is illustrative to me like does that is that immersion is that taking a religion very seriously and the religious components of it to me this is like similar to non-violent communication whereas Non-performatively, you actually have to actively be situating the thing.
authentically in yourself and be like I'm a white person from Massachusetts and I went to India and learned a lot and this person taught me that and then not be like passing it off as your own there's bad non-violent communication where you're like i feel like you're an asshole right like that's not it has to be like
that hurt my feelings you know I'm sad right now and so I'm wondering too how much of this is also performance of being associated with this thing right right so like part of what is gross about being in Iowa a hippie that talks about the it's like the way you talk about it on social media yes right like you are performing your investment in this thing instead of like maybe just trying to figure out what that investment is yourself in your brain
Yeah, I feel like I've come up against moments of this. I was in Scotland and like took a Scottish dance class where like... These Scottish people were super excited to teach a group of Americans about Scottish dance. And I was like, I had so much fun. Would I want to do this for exercise? Right. And I was like gaming out where. it would become appropriative and totally inappropriate you know like and i was like there is a place at which this gets gross i don't think paying this scottish dance
to teach us about their culture and then enjoying it is where the line is. Right? Yeah. And I also think there's always power dynamics, right? Yes. Are you drawing on a culture that has been historically marginalized, fetishized, colonized, and exploited by white people? Right. And are you a white person? Right. figures into that question totally so like how how does this fit into the the present
And the dynamics that are at work at present and the way, like, the who and why are profiting from a particular practice now. And then also historically. Yeah. Like I think of something like becoming a person who's really into meditation, but because it makes you a more productive person. Right. Right. You know, and like talking a lot about that.
This is very complicated, but I'm glad that like Anjali is asking us these questions because there isn't, we just have to keep talking about it. Like I think more instead of just sometimes being like. Oh, that gives me the ick, but that doesn't give me the ick as much. Right. And I can only answer in metaphors, right, of like watching Grey's Anatomy doesn't make me a doctor. And so going to one.
ayahuasca retreat doesn't make you a different identity. But going to medical school does make me a doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something in there. And I think we get really frustrated because sometimes it feels like people have watched an episode of Grey's Anatomy and now they're trying to diagnose you. And you're like, ew, no, you're not the right person for this. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense, too. So, yeah. And also, I think there's also an element of, like, what...
the religious practice itself or the spiritual practice itself believes about other people belonging in that spiritual practice. In the comments section of the newsletter recently, someone was talking about how They themselves are not a Jewish person. They don't want to convert. Their husband is. And they talk to a bunch of local rabbis about like, is it okay that I go to synagogue?
I want to be part of this community, even though I'm not personally interested in converting. And the rabbis were like, yes, we want you here. But they were thoughtful enough to have that conversation. And interestingly, in Judaism... and we can talk, this is a whole other problem, but like they wouldn't quote unquote count in some spaces. So like in order to pray for the dead during Shiva, you need 10.
bar bat mitzvahed people you need like 10 adult jews which is called minion um and like she wouldn't count and if she then pretended to count and like obviously more progressive right right like This is all complicated. But if she pretended to count, those rabbis would have a different feeling. Yes. But if she's like, no, I'm here because I want to learn and love this. That feels that feels wonderful. Right. Or like. If you were attending a Christian church, some feel very strongly.
about who can take communion yes i have had christians literally look at me when i'm in church and be like you don't go up there and i'm like no i don't like i super don't want to but like people get mad at the thought that i might and i'm like but
Some do, right? Some are like participate in the breaking of bread with us. Or like this whole dinner is our communion, right? Like by breaking bread with us, you're doing communion. But it's a... A case-by-case basis, which does not answer Anjali's question. But maybe we have given some mixed metaphors on how to detect some of the situations that will lead to much more exploitation than others. I think that your answer about power is right, is like making sure that the...
the group that historically has been more marginalized is getting to set the terms. Like that's going to do a lot of the work. Yeah. And not like. You doing it and being like, I had a conversation with the leader. So now I get to set the terms. Like she said, I was like, I could come and I could like use these words. So now I'm in charge. I did have a friend in grad school text me.
she's Catholic and she was like everybody is missing school today for Yom Kippur can I miss school today for Yom Kippur I need your permission and I was like on behalf of all Jews yes go ahead so I don't know Every once in a while. And if you ever need a Jew to bless you on something, just text me.
Just text the atheist Jew who's also a spiritual leader. Yeah. Spiritual. How do we say that? It's spiritual. You're not a spiritual leader. Like you said, like when you were getting introduced, you're like, I'm not a humanist. I'm not really a spiritual leader. I call myself an atheist chaplain. That's bad. Atheist chaplain. I don't know, man.
I don't know. We're rebranding, remember? I'm trying to think. I'm trying to reprogram my brain. My favorite color is blue. I'm going to think blue now when I hear the word atheist. Okay. Thank you. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can listeners find you if they want to find more from you on the internet? They can subscribe to our podcast, Let's Ask Taylor Swift, which Anne is in our very first episode.
And Hot and Bothered where we talk about rom-coms. So that's why. Thank you again. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Today, paid subscribers get a bonus Ask Anne Anything segment featuring a conversation between me and Melody, always the best, about how to make decluttering your house less of an ordeal. We've got so much wisdom. Sort of. If you want to support the show and get that bonus content and feel better about your...
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The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Raul. Our music is by Poddington Bear. You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodious47, and the show at Culture Study Pod. Bye.