Hey everyone, so the recording for this episode went long, like super long, so we're trying something new and making the last part of today's conversation just for paid subscribers, as well as the usual Ask And Anything Bonus segment. Head to culturestudypod.substac.com for the extended version. Otherwise, thank you so much for being here on with the show. Say, do we have, yeah, I have it once again. You have it, okay.
So we can hear the audio here, but what do you see on your screen right now in front of you? So I see a guy who is straight up cheesy and just overcome with glee and no embarrassment at the fact that his girlfriend is screaming to over 90,000 people that she is his girlfriend and he's coming home with her. How would you describe his outfit? I mean, it's got a flare, bright colors, some pattern, and this is someone who is not afraid to be
seen and stand out, an extrovert. Who is he standing next to? Her dad. And I guess this is me to describe it, like asking you to describe some sound, but like how is the crowd reacting to this? The crowd is beside themselves with glee and merth and like finally our girl has someone who is okay with her being her. I'm Anne Helen Peterson and this is the Culture Study Podcast. I'm Leah
Lippman. I'm a professor at the University of Michigan. I also co-host Struct Scrutiny, a podcast about the Supreme Court and the culture that surrounds it and I was quoted in the Wall Street Journal for being among the top 0.05% of Taylor Swift fans on Spotify. And we have a special third co-host with us today. I'm Melody Raoul. I am a Kansas City resident. I am married to a Kansas City chief seasoned ticket holder and I produce both Struct Scrutiny and the Culture Study Podcast.
Okay, so if those intros don't tip you off, we're talking today about all things Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. This is not part of the script. I just want to put in a little bit about one of the first things that you asked me, Melody, when you met me. Do you remember? I was like, I don't know, maybe the third question that you asked me. Okay, I don't think it was like that soon. I think I gave it like a couple months, maybe
like six weeks of being normal, but we were coming. No, no, no, no, it was not six weeks. It was very early. It was very early. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. We were getting ready to launch our last podcast. There was a day coming up that coincided with the release of Taylor Swift's Midnights. And I wanted to let you know that I was going
to be unavailable that Friday because I would have been up all night. But I didn't want to just, I wanted to know if it was a safe space before I just like told you this insane thing about my schedule. And so I asked if you were a Swiftie. And I think I responded, like because I didn't know, right? I didn't know if you were like about to shit talk, right? Right. And so I was like, oh, wait, yeah, I like Taylor, like I like Taylor Swift,
like I'm a fan of Taylor Swift. You said I'm not a Swiftie. But I, you're like, but yeah, she's fine. Yeah, yeah, I'm not a tibbling non-committal. Yes. Yes. And then I think, like I have evidenced myself to be not necessarily a Swiftie, but someone who is part of the Taylor Swift admiration society. Yes. For sure. And it's only a matter of time until that becomes Swiftieism. Exactly. So Leah, apart from being cited by the Wall Street Journal, what are
your credentials as a Taylor Swift fan? What aren't my credentials? So I have been to four eras tour shows. I have been to every Taylor tour ever since red. I make my own Taylor Swift t-shirts and outfits coinciding with every album, every set of vault tracks, basically anything that kind of moves me, which is it turns out a lot of what she does. The only thing I consume on TikTok is Taylor Swift content. Like Melody, I am also unavailable during any Taylor Swift release
states. And also I share the same birthday as Taylor Swift. So the universe has basically united us. Melody, what are your credentials? Can you top that? No, I'm not even going to try and top that. What I do think part of my credentials are that I used to be a hater. I was like, what? Yes, I thought you knew this. I'm subscribed. I'm done with this podcast now. Melody, this is a very your fire. This is a very powerful conversion story and I just want to share my testimony.
Witness. So I was vehemently anti-taylor with like in arguments about how I thought she sucked, how I thought she was like really inauthentic, always acting surprised to get these awards and it's like we get it. This is misogyny culture in essence. I know. I know. And I was like, you know, 20 in my early 20s during this period. Yeah. High school I also thought she was pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. So then with the release of 1989 in 2014, that sort of solidified her movement
from country to fully pop. I also was not a country music listener in general. So I don't know why I felt like I needed to be with her. But when 1989 came out, I was out of town and I had a rental car and I was like driving all over and kept hearing this really catchy song on the radio. And I would shazam it and they'd be like, God, David, it's Taylor Swift. What song was it? Shake it off. No. I love favorite Taylor Swift. I know. But I was like, this is so catchy. God. Oh,
shit, it's Taylor Swift. And then remember how Starbucks used to give out the little cards that were like a free iTunes download. I got one of those for this song, This Love also from 1989. I was like, okay, well, now I like two Taylor Swift songs. And then one of my friends told me I had to listen to out of the woods. And after I listened to that, I was just like, okay, I'm downloading this album. No one can know. Like, this is so against my personal brand that I like this album.
But once I started opening up to other friends being like, I like this album. They're like, okay, you're ready to listen to her older stuff now. And so I started doing a deep dive into the back catalog and was like, she's really on to something. And I didn't know that at the same time, my sister who I'm very close to was having a similar experience with Shake it off, where she would also be like, this is catchy. Who is this? So it's like something in our DNA.
So then we secretly started liking Taylor Swift together and then got more brave about sharing our truth with others. And so the two of us went to the 1989 tour in 2015 and then sort of descended from there. I went to the reputation tour in 2018 three times. And that was about the time Leah and I started being friends. And I'm pretty sure Taylor was like a big reason that we started our own like independent friendship outside of the people that introduced us.
Okay, so I was going to share some of my history, but I think it would actually be better positioned in some of our responses to these questions because we have a ton. And I think we want to cover as many as possible. I will say that just before we all start, I'm so glad that we have two like real Swifties here who have the minutiae of information. And I might take just slightly more of a objective celebrities studies posture here than I normally would only to play the foil.
So yeah, just understand that. I also want to note that right now Melody is wearing a sweatshirt that says, talk to me about Taylor Swift. I am wearing a sweatshirt that says 1989 Taylor's version. And I'm wearing a t-shirt that I will reveal later in our conversation because I know there will be an occasion for it. And I am wearing a flannel covered with dog hair. So let's go.
Very ever more coated. Yes. So let's get into our questions. We're going to start with some general questions about Taylor and then get more into her relationship with Travis Kelsey just a little bit later. So first up, let's hear from Tabitha Melody. Will you read this question for us? Why is Taylor Swift so famous slash popular now? In middle school, I used to get bullied for liking her music. And now my former bullies are posting on Instagram about her heirs to her concert or
the latest album. I'm not complaining, but genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on why she has become such a cultural icon. So how old do you think Tabitha is? If she liked her in middle school, she's probably in her late 20s. Late 20s early 30s. Taylor and I are about the same age. We're six months apart and I'm 34. She just turned 34. Yeah. So her music started coming out when I was in
high school. Okay. So yeah. So here is my theory. She was very cringe. If you were also in high school, when like tear drops on my guitar came out or to McGraw, like these songs, whereas I was in my late 20s and to me, it was coded as like, oh, this is actually kind of like high school early college nostalgic for me. Right? So I liked early Taylor Swift a lot. And I'm hurt. I'm also a country music fan. So like I liked that part of it. But then all of my friends too, we all were like,
we like this Taylor Swift person, right? Like it was almost like a like liking Miley Cyrus at that same time. It was very similar. Or like me liking Olivia Rodrigo now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Part of it for me like being the same age as her. So earlier this year, Taylor released, did her re-release of Speak Now, which was her third album. And I believe the original came out in 2011.
So that would have been the year I graduated college. And like I love it now. But when I was listening to the re-record, I'm like, yeah, I just would not have been listening to this as a 21-22 year old. Like it codes young. And she was still wearing like princess gowns and like very coughed ponytails. And it's like her audience was for girls younger than her. And older. Yeah. I was going to say like and older because like I was also into Taylor Swift since debut. And you know, not to come back
to something I was rousing melody about earlier. But I do think that like some of the anti-taylor Swift stuff that prevented her from taking off, you know, in the same way that she is now is a result of like internalized misogyny and just misogyny toward women. Because there's something that people act as like cool or edgy about disliking women or disliking stuff that women like, you know, it will feel like women and girls like it. It's got to be like bad. And like I'm edgy and cool
because I don't like it. And you know, like Taylor Swift is extremely talented. She is a type A woman who like wanted to be a star when she was young and moved to Nashville to do that. And I think she sets off all of the misogyny and internalized misogyny alarm bells. You know, even though it was clear, she was immensely talented. Like she wrote, you know, the story of us in like minutes. She's wrote like, you're losing me. One of the most like devastating and like sadist songs ever.
In like 20 minutes while sitting and eating raisins and her kitchen. And you know, it took the fact that like she put together an album of the year Grammy Award-winning album during the pandemic. When most people were just like sitting around home in their pajamas eating Doritos. And it's like, oh wow Taylor Swift did that during the pandemic. I think and you know, looked into a genre that,
you know, more dudes liked for the world to kind of come around to her. And that was, I think, a point at which she started transcending into this new dimension of fame. I'll also say that I think she has become more interesting to casual, previously casual fans like myself as her feminism has evolved, right? As her politics have evolved. So to me, she was less interesting when she was really feeding into these like heterosexual and they're like
white horse, right? It's just like very classic, almost Disney heroine. And that was translated in the aesthetics of like the video and like how she was how she was dressing and that sort of thing at the time. And I think too. And like I actually feel a lot of like empathy sympathy for her about this period of time. Like in around shake it off like when she was constantly being popperazid, stepping out of her apartment in New York. And I was like, she's just upholding these
standards in a way that I didn't find interesting. And then I think she's gotten, she's become more musically complex in ways that I think like we should be careful about being like, oh, like she's done more things that like are coded as masculine within the music world than that makes her more interesting. But I just like I think her music like she has more albums. It's more engine like there's more things. There's more places, points of connection for me personally.
Yeah, you know, definitely. I mean, you know, contrasting white horse with lavender hay is, you know, people only see like a one-night stand or a wife. I mean, that's a very different perspective that you know, she brings to the later music. Okay, so our next question and this is actually a really great piggyback onto our last one. This is from Laura. Like many of us, I'm deeply curious about how Taylor Swift went from normal famous just so, so, so famous during the pandemic and what
it might say about how we're valuing women today. Just a few years ago, she was often still perceived as mean, caddy sleeping around too much. And these misogynistic views seem to have been really left by the wayside. How did this happen in just a few years? Is this because re-recording her old albums has coincided with the girlification of culture? Is it because she now rarely gives interviews and it's easier for us to love women when we can just project onto them? Or has she
just perfectly tapped into the Easter egg online discourse machine? I'm personally pretty deep on galaer, so I have my own thoughts, even though Travis Kelsey seems nice, but I'm curious to hear what you all think. There's so much going on in this question and usually melody you unpack these for me to read, be like, okay guys, let's start with this one. So where would you start with this question? I mean, we kind of already talked about going from normal famous to so, so, so famous.
Yeah. And a little bit about what it says about how we value women. What about this question of, does revisiting her old albums coincide with the girlification of culture? I think that's a really interesting theory. You know, I am hesitant to pronounce that we have reached this point where culture is girlified as if this is like a stable status quo in which like things girls and women do
and girls and women like will be valued and not like devalued just for that reason. But I do think that there is something to the observation that, you know, these re-records and this tour coincided with the summer of Barbie, right? And the fall of Roe vs. Wade and Beyoncé's Renaissance tour. And like a lot happening that centered sometimes like forcibly and negatively the experiences
and lives of women. But that has always been, I think, the appeal of Taylor, but also what led people to criticize her is her music has always been about the experience and the inner lives of girls and women. And you know, that's not just romantic, you know, it's interpersonal friendship, it's business, it's, you know, all of the range. And I think that has always been part of the appeal and maybe, you know, at some points in time it is more acceptable to say it's actually
really cool, right? For this person to be able to describe and think about what it's like to be a girl and woman at various stages in their life and various experiences. But I think it would be impossible to identify one explanation or one reason why she went from famous to super famous. I think it's a bunch of different things. I think from a star studies perspective, those labels that this question asked her, Laura, affixes to her star image circa 2016. So like mean, sharp,
sleeping around too much, like I would say kind of like nodding on the joke as well. Like there's just, there are different balances that were floating around her during that time. This was also around, when did she first like make a political stance? She sewed the seeds of Allie ship and welcome to New York in 1989. And then but she didn't like speak, like she didn't endorse anyone, right? Because there was a lot of questions. I remember a lot of questions about like,
is Taylor Swift a Republican? Like, can you imagine that now? Like, it seems very odd to me. There are all of those things that were like in the larger constellation of like what Taylor Swift means. And then the pandemic, I think softened her, right? Like added these softened balances to her. And that's in everything from the way that she looks on the cover of those
albums. Like peak French braid, like I don't know, just like a very unmatched. Yes. And then also even the sounds of those albums, the sentiment of them and so many different ways added something. And then I think this whole current romantic subplot is making her, you know, the question asked her says like, it's so easy to like someone when you can project onto them to some extent, right? And this is a particular type of narrative with Travis Kelsey. That is like, it's just
exquisite to try to map yourself onto it, right? Yeah. So those are my scattered thoughts. Go, Melody. Yeah. I've got another thought too. And that's with folklore and evermore coming out in 2020. That was also when TikTok really took off in the United States. And there is a very deep and wide, swifty subculture on TikTok. Like there are swift talk influencers. And I think that's where
my fandom went from like, I really like her to like, I'm a nut. It's like, it is this space where people are sharing their breadth of knowledge that they've gained over the years from being a fan and helping draw the connections between albums and lyrics or drawing the connections between this lyric might be about this person that was in a pop or out-of-the-picture in 2013. How do we know? And so you really get submerged into the lore on TikTok that I think definitely deepened my
appreciation and my understanding of her whole career. Sometimes late coming to the game. Yeah. I would also say that that, you know, I love the fact that this question asker posits so many different theories. And then it's like, and also I just should note that I'm very into hashtag Gailer. Like that emphasizes to me that swift herself is what a star studies person would call polysemic. That means that like there are so many different ways to read her. Her text
has so many different meanings. And so she has developed many more entry points for fandom in terms of like I am a fan of Gailer, which means there might be there might be many different ways of reading texts. But ever more is Emily Dickinson all the way down and I will die on that hill. Yeah, should we just define Gailer quickly? Yes, we should. So Leah and I also both identify as Gailers.
Although she held out on me for a long time and put up with like a lot of dumb things I texted her about like maybe Taylor and Joe are like secretly married and she just said, no, I don't think so. But Gailer is the idea that Taylor Swift is queer and throughout her lyrics there are a lot of phrases and words that have historically queer meanings. And I think that we are obligated to view those phrases and lyrics through a queer lens because it is harkening back to when
they were used to like flag being queer. Right. So I appreciate viewing her lyrics through a queer lens. And I think it adds a depth that is not necessarily present in just a straight reading of her lyrics. But anyways, that's what Gailer is. As people who think Taylor is queer to varying levels of conspiracy that go along with that. Right. Like some people think that basically all of these heterosexual relationships are like what's the word I'm looking for? Beards. Beards. Right.
Some people think that and no, it's not beard because beard is the other way. It's purses. I think they're all serious. Yeah, they still call it bearding. Historically, they were called purses. Oh, I'm like classic Hollywood. That's cool. And then some people who think just that she is queer as in like she also has relationships with women, right. There's like different ways that you can interpret that. Yeah, varying levels of conspiracy. Okay. So this is a great segue into our next question,
which is from Evan. What's the deal with celebrity romance and sexuality conspiracy theories? Like, why are they so compelling? And when did they go from harmless speculating fun to we are worried for you, QAnon territory? I'm thinking of this particularly because even while it seems like the whole world is talking about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, my group chat is debating Gailer in which 1989 vault songs might be about Carly Klaus. All right. What do you think? I have to
first of all, none of the 1989 vault tracks are about Carly Klaus. They may be about Diana Agron. Yeah, but that's not the point of this question. Several of them are about Harry Styles. Yes. Like they just are. Yes. So I think as far as like what's the deal with celebrity romance and sexuality conspiracy theories, I think it is because we are aware of the PR apparatus. And it is made visible in a way that it didn't used to be visible probably because of social media.
And so we are sort of reading through the veneer of how celebrities are choosing to present themselves and trying to find what the actual truth might be. And I do think Taylor is especially suited to this kind of discussion because she is known for planting Easter eggs. And so the question with anything Taylor Swift related is, is this an Easter egg? Is this a coincidence? Is this nothing at all? Right. And historically she used Easter eggs to hint at forthcoming albums.
But now people are like, ah, she was wearing a pinky ring in that picture. Easter egg for being a lesbian. Do people think that she queer bates? I think some people have voiced that. But I think it's complicated because on some level, once this subculture of the fandom develops, diminishing it or dismissing it, is itself could be problematic. Because I think often the gay lures are unfairly criticized and attacked on social media by people who call themselves head lures.
And because Taylor is very open now about being an ally to the LGBT community, I don't think. Like she wants to do anything that could be seen as anti LGBT. And so, you know, is she queerbating? Is she engaging with a sect of her fandom? Is she dropping Easter eggs? I think different people kind of would identify at different points in that spectrum, much like sexuality edicts. But I don't think of it as queerbating really. It reminds me to some extent. And I wonder if
this is like a productive comparison. But a long time ago, someone asked George Clooney what he thinks about persistent rumors at the time that he was gay. And I always thought his answer was really interesting, which was that he said something along the lines of, if that makes people happy, who am I to say that that's not the case, essentially? Right? Like he didn't want to shut down any
readings of him. And, and, you know, if I'm remembering correctly, like, maybe there was part of it that kind of seemed to like let people have their fun, which is a little bit infantilizing. But I do think that like just that idea that a star doesn't need to, doesn't have a responsibility to shut down the ways that people read them. Like that, that's really interesting, right? So,
I understand that she is actually, she's leaving her image open for interpretation. And also, like getting back to something Melody said about like Taylor being a kind of perfect candidate for this given that she is into Easter eggs, Taylor is also someone who cultivates, you know, a very personal relationship with her fans, right? Performing surprise songs at the Ares tour, right? Gives people a sense that she is performing this special song for you, right? She holds secret
sessions, you know, in which she invites certain fans to like listen to albums. And so, that aspect of her relationship with her fans, I think also opens up to, again, like imagining parts of her or imagining like other aspects of her that, you know, again, you might like do with other people. Taylor also has a very good publicist who is part of the like extended universe. And she is very savvy at shutting down rumors about herself that she doesn't appreciate. And
when they do the PR, it's like very clear that they're doing it. And I do think if Taylor came out and was like, no, I'm actually very straight. I do think there would be backlash in accusations of queer baiting because she would have been appropriating a lot of queer culture. So the, the music video for you need to calm down that is full of like the queer eye guys and famous drag queens and like so many famous gay celebrities, was she just using them as props? Or is she saying,
like, I'm actually one of them. And I also don't think, I just want to be clear, I don't think that she owes anybody a coming out statement. No. I personally think she is as out as she wants to be in that she, you know, like, wears a wig that's the color of the by pride flag. She wears a bracelet that says proud. She rides a rainbow unicorn kitty wearing a rainbow t-shirt in the Miss
Americana documentary. She says gay pride country western boots cats, all of the things that make me so, yeah, like the first song on Midnight is lavender haze and like all of the videos right are like Taylor bleeding purple. And, you know, and just like on the evermore bit in particular, I mean, again, this is someone who was extremely detail oriented. She announced evermore on December 10th Emily Dickinson's birthday. Emily Dickinson, right, her writings reveal she had an extremely
close relationship with her sister-in-law Susan Gilbert. And, you know, one of Emily's poems that is clearly about Susan Gilbert is one sister have I in our house. And the end of that poem is Sue comma forevermore. Like there are so many overlaps between, you know, queer culture and her albums, whether it is lines like you can hear a hairpin drop or, you know, whatever that, you know, I'm with
Melody on this one. Thank you. The last thing I'll say is that in studies of gossip culture, it's really interesting that what people have found, what scholars have found is that there is a certain percentage of the population, like around 20% that just uncritically consume any information that's coming from celebrities. Like they read the magazines, they watch Shackdark whatever they're
the publicity that it enters into my brain, that's true. Everything I read is true. And then there's like a middle swath that maybe like looks at some stuff and thinks about, oh, well, there's stars like this is part of the publicity apparatus to some extent. And then there's on the other side, there is a swath of people who are, who are puzzlers, right? Think of gossip as a puzzle. And part of the pleasure of consuming it is trying to decipher that puzzle. And I think that
would be true. Like you could say that to some extent about people who get into something like QAnon, they're puzzlers. The danger is when it becomes dangerous to other people or threatens democracy or leads to violence or threats of violence, right? Like that's where I think, you know, by believing that Taylor's queer, like that does not unsettle our understanding of
of like our dementia. I don't know. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. That's such a helpful framework for thinking about this because part of Evan's question is when does it go from harmless to QAnon territory? Yeah. And I like to think of myself as in that middle tier that you described of like, I'm just taking the information as it comes while also like seeing through the veneer. But there are definitely people who are very online who are like she and Blake lively are actually
married and those are her children not Ryan Reynolds. And like because she was in this picture of Zoey Kravitz, they are together. And it's the same kind of like the stuff that she went through in like her early 20s with like any man was in the same room as her. People are like them together. And there is a subset of gayers who take that same approach with all of the women that she's ever been around. Yeah. And I would just underline that there is a lot of precedence for this sort of
gossip thinking. It is facilitated and expanded by the internet. But like anyone who is around in 2004, 2005, 2006 and understood like the power that Perez Hilton had over that top-graded narrative. Like this is not this is not in any way new. All right. Next question. I know you are both so excited to answer this. This one comes from Jen who's a paid subscriber. I mean, she got to submit this question through a special Google form which put her at the front of the line.
Being a paid subscriber is like having the fast past at Disneyland or something like that. Okay. Let's hear it. What was with the Maddie Healy situation? And why have we collectively forgotten this misstep? I know your topic is Taylor and Travis, but I have to think that part of the genesis of this relationship was a PR need to bury Maddie. No. Which it seems to have done extremely well. All right. First of all, she should have burned Maddie Healy during the Willow Witch segment after
they broke up. It's my one note on the Ares tour in addition to a few recommended song editions. But I mean, look, everyone is entitled to weird rebounds and missteps after the demise of a long term relationship. So I don't know that we're so much like forgetting it as just like allowing her to do what like every other, you know, like 30 something woman does when, you know, their relationship status changes. Again, I have no love last for Maddie Healy. I think he's disgusting.
And did not like when, you know, she was ostensibly pictured with him. But, you know, again, girls going to do what girls going to do. When, okay, I want to situate the Maddie Healy rumors or like dating with this new information that we have about when she and Travis started hanging out. There's no overlap. There's no overlap. Yeah. She was broken up with Maddie when she performed the lakes, I think, in it was at Chicago, maybe. But it was after Nashville and before I saw her
in Detroit. And that was in June. So there's just no overlap. Yeah. Yeah. The whole thing, it only lasted maybe about a month. And I, like, I, this was my Roman Empire at the time. Like, I'm spending so much time thinking about it. And like, definitely felt weird about listening to her music. Just if you don't know the Maddie Healy situation, the TLDR is he's the frontman for the 1975. And he's just very gross and racist and said horrible things
about ice spice that, and then Taylor, like, did a collab with ice spice. And he also was on a podcast laughing about some, I don't even know the adjective I want about his taste in porn. And very, like, demeaning, upsetting kinds of porn. And then Taylor is like dating him. And everybody is up in arms of like, how could she date somebody who is so gross? And I should say, we don't actually
know that they were dating. The conclusion that I came to was I thought that they were collaborating for a Vault track on 1989 because for the Speak Now Re-Release, she collaborated with artists that she liked at that time in her life. She was a big fan of the 1975 around the 1989 era. I thought they're collaborating and also hooking up and it's just like not that deep. And I stand by that. But to answer or to sort of get at Jen's question,
I agree with Leah that I don't think we have forgotten the misstep. And I think we're just like, I don't really know what that was about. But I don't necessarily think, I think if Travis was meant to cover the sins of Maddie Healy, it would have been a much faster turnaround. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and the other thing I would say, why am I blinking on the name of Taylor's, but I wanted to say like, tree pain. Tree pain. I thought that that was like, is it tree pain?
I was like, no, that's a joke. No, tree pain, I think, would have more effectively vetted that relationship if she thought it was going to be something that was in any way bigger, right? Like they would have countered it in a more effective way. So my neighbor actually works in music publicity for, you know, much smaller artists. But I texted her at the time and I was like, can you please explain this to me from a PR standpoint?
Like what do you think is happening behind the scenes? And she was like, look, like all we can really do as PR is like tell them what we think the best course of action is. And then whatever choice they want to make is still their choice. And we just like do the best we can. Yeah. And so, yeah, maybe tree knew everything and was like girl dump him in Taylor's like, it's not that big of a
deal. Like we don't know. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's the thing is this is very different than when someone's like almost an aspen galley relationship with their publicists, right? Who they're when their publicists like, and now you will date this person, right? It's like, and now Robert Pence and you will date Kristen Stewart. And it will be good for your careers. Like that is not the level that we're talking about. Okay. We promised you this episode would be
about Taylor and Travis. So let's get to that now. Our first question is from Jane and Melody's going to read it. Did Travis Kelsey hook up with Taylor just to plug his line of frozen meals at Walmart? I mean, I don't think it's just for the frozen meals. He also has a podcast and sells jerseys and other things too. I mean, look, I don't know. I guess I just say kind of like two things about this question. One is as we were talking about when we were watching the TikTok video. I mean,
Travis Kelsey seems to really want to be Taylor Swift's boyfriend. You know, and I think he wants to be her boyfriend for many different reasons. And one of those reasons is probably she's a really big star. And he thinks that's cool. You know, he also gave, you know, an interview to the Walls Street Journal, which she's like, gosh, she's like really smart and uses these big words that I don't know what they are. And like words, he doesn't know how to spell like squirrel. And, you know, other
things too. So, you know, I think there are, there seem to be a lot of things about Taylor that he likes about her. I like the fact that he likes some of these things about her, like the fact that she's smart, the fact that she's very successful, you know, the fact that she is very into her job. And I think he likes being able to be in a public relationship with her because he also likes being famous and in the public eye. And so, you know, as always, I think there are many different reasons why
people are attracted to someone else, why they want to be with someone else. And, but I don't think it's just because he wants to sell frozen meals. I am, however, really looking forward to whatever songs she writes about Travis Kelsey. Like, I want the song about the lyric change. Now, if I wanted like ASAP, because I mean, no offense to your husband, Melody, Travis Kelsey is like not very interesting to me. And, but like, this is one of Taylor's greatest
talents. And it partially bothers me when, you know, podcasts or media about Taylor focus on her relationships because the guys she dates aren't interesting. Like Maddie Healy, right? Like, what? He's like interesting in a negative way. This might offend people, but Harry Styles is not interesting. Like, he had good hair and then he cut it off. He had an album that was glorified elevator music that somehow beat out Beyonce's Renaissance, you know, for album of the year. I don't care about
Harry Styles. Jake Jellinhal, what has he done besides broke back Mountain? Right? I also love that like, Joe all went as so boring. He doesn't even deserve a mention in this like list of men.
I might have gotten to him. I might not have, but the point is, is that like, I like, she imbues these relationships with, you know, such like narrative and lyrical interestingness, the same way that she imbues like all aspects of girls and women's lives that people relate to with that same kind of like narrative lyrical interestingness that like I now find Harry Styles
somewhat interesting. So interesting. I made a t-shirt that says Harry Styles is a lying trader who can't drive and that is the t-shirt I am wearing and again, like that is her skill and, right, it benefits all of the dudes she dates way more than anyone, you know, acknowledges. Again, you have these podcasts talking about Harry Styles as if he's like some kind of cool dude. He's not cool and it just- You're gonna just so much hate me all for this. I don't care. I'll stand by it.
I know you drove us off the road. He can't keep his wild eyes on the road. I agree that Travis Kelsey is not that interesting. I think that he becomes interesting vis-a-vis this romance and vis-a-vis his appreciation for Taylor, right? Like, I don't know about his, like the ins and out of his feminist politics, but if he is okay with Taylor being Taylor, like that is awesome and Taylor has made him interesting through the way that they've unrolled this relationship. Yes. Like, that is all her
skill. I also would say like no one's like, oh, did Jay-Z start dating Beyonce so that he could sell his next album, right? Like, people start dating other famous people for two reasons. One, they understand whether they realize it or not that fame is helpful for fame. But also famous people start dating famous people because for the same reason that like grad students, data, they're graduate students. Right. Like, no one else can understand how weird your life is.
Except for these other famous people. And so they like have this rarefied air, which is just very difficult for even people who are stepped down like Joe Owen to understand what it's like. So that that's my take. Our next question is from Kelsey. Regarding Taylor and Kelsey, there were so many TikToks analyzing how he seemed to be keeping her safe and how he's taller than her, which must be nice for her to feel small. It feels like there's a lot to unpack there. And I don't really
have a question. It's just an angle to think about with all that. I'm also unusually interested in them and I don't understand why. Thanks. Okay. I used to be there's like a theme in this episode. I used to be anti-travesticals. So as mentioned at the top of this episode, I live in Kansas City. My husband is an enormous chiefs fan. He has season tickets. I say he has them because like, I don't want to go. Although I did recently go with a pair of binoculars so I could watch Taylor.
Yes. And I thought I just I always thought Travis was like very obnoxious. Like he's a showboat. He is just like a big dumb dude. And I also couldn't understand like why does he need a podcast? What could he possibly have to say? Which is like, you know, I'm allowed to think that because I have podcasts. So when Taylor first showed up at that chiefs game in September, my phone started blowing up and I was like distraught because I was like, first of all, I don't want her to be with another man.
Here we did. Second of all, like, are you kidding me? Like he's so dumb. I just like, and I was really like inconsolable for like 24 hours and my husband, Bobby, I think was like kind of offended because he really likes Travis Kelsey and he's like, we have gotten in multiple fights over the years about how dumb I think Travis Kelsey is. And so this whole other connotation to him that I had none of, right? Yeah. So like the next morning, I woke up and I was like, I think I've come around to it.
Bobby was like, finally, and because I had to do some googling, Travis Kelsey as far as NFL players go is very unproblematic. Yes. So this question about how he's tall and it must be nice for her to feel small. I feel qualified to answer this because I am 510 and my entire life just like desperately wanted a man to be taller than me because I never got to feel small. Like I've been this height
since like seventh grade or something. And so I always felt like, as Taylor would say, the monster on the hill because I was like, always taller than the boys until my senior year of high school. And like, nobody wanted to go out with me, you know, like no one ever had a crush on me. And maybe my personality sucked. I don't know. But I do think part of it was like I was tall. And so I,
of course, have like projected my own feelings about that on to Taylor. And also thinking about the relationships I've been in were like, my boyfriend didn't want me to wear heels because I would be taller than him. In secure masculinity. Yeah. Which somehow became my problem. And so I do think whether it's shallow or not or problematic or not, there is a feeling of relief that comes with being somebody taller and bigger than me. So I just like, I just love that for Taylor. Like
my husband is taller than me. I love that for me. And I love that Taylor who I think is about my same height like Travis is 65. Oh, also I should say my husband used to work at a popular retail store in Kansas City and met Travis on a couple of occasions. And he can confirm that Travis is quote unquote huge. My husband's like 6162. He says Travis is huge and smells good. So that was like that was like the final piece. He looked like a guy who would smell good. Yeah. He looks
like a guy who would smell good. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. That's my feelings as a tall girl. Leo, what do you think? I mean, like Melody, I feel like Travis's big selling points are one. He's extremely into Taylor Swift for what seemed like a bunch of very unproblematic and in fact very good reasons. Like she's smart and successful to he does not seem to harbor any delusions that he is some super genius with profound thoughts that need to be shared with the world. And then three
is as Melody was saying just like deeply unproblematic. Like when people went back and looked at his tweets from when he was in college, I mean, this is a time when a lot of dudes are pretty problematic. Travis is tweeting what like, oh, I just like ate a pizza and I'm going to go to class. I just saw Squirrel. And so I think like, okay, you know, unproblematic beefy bro, you know, fine. And we also, I think, you know, we've talked about foils a lot. As a fan, it is impossible to
look at Travis and not think about all of the like greedy men that came before him. Yes. Who were also very self-conscious about being in a relationship with Taylor. Like they wanted to be known for their own thing. Like Joe, I would never wanted to talk about her. And so now you have a man who's like not ashamed to be known as Taylor's boyfriend. Like Leah said at the beginning of
the episode. And he also happens to have like a completely different physical build. So I do think we are kind of putting the two together that he seems very different physically and emotionally. Well, it's kind of a perfect storm because so here's the thing. Fame is feminizing. Like historically, it has feminized because you become the object of the gaze through the fact that you are a celebrity that people are talking gossip is feminizing. It takes a lot of masculinity
to stand up to those feminizing forces or at least to not feel insecure about them. And what football players have are images that are uniquely resistant to that, right? Like they are gossip about all the time. It is usually in regards to their athletic acumen. But like they are so used to people talking about them and like having to sit for interviews and like making the entrance into the football field. And also, I think this is what's really interesting too about sports players
is they are given a sort of pass to play around with fashion. Yeah. Because there is no other question of their masculinity because they are like pummeling into people on the field. There is that space for them to play around with like I'm going to wear clothes that you might not associate with someone who looks like me in an interesting way. So I think that like that when we talk about how Travis Kelsey is not interesting, like I think there is actually some interesting
things about him. I think he's like he likes weird things and like takes chances and like think of all of the different outfits he could have worn to that concert. Yeah. If he was Joe, he would have worn a black t-shirt and a black hat instead of the back. And sat there like grousing. Howdy. So Travis and his brother Jason Kelsey who plays for the Philadelphia Eagles, they have a podcast as we've discussed. They a few months ago had their mom on Donna Kelsey and Jason asked her
if she was sad that she never had a daughter. And she said no because I have Travis. And like because he like he can sing, he can dance and he's like a little fashionista. But that comment was just like so endearing to people and I don't think anybody took it as like wow she thinks her son is like weakened girly. Yeah. It was like a compliment. Yeah. All right. We are already running long but we still have a couple of questions about whether Taylor and Travis are endgame. If you are
curious about our thoughts on that, I promise they're really good. And if you want to hear advice on making friends in your 30s and 40s, head over to our substack and become a paid subscriber. Think of it as like the extended director's cut version of this episode. You can find it at culturestudypod.substack.com. You'll also get access to the discussion thread for this episode, which I'm sure is going to be all over the place. Leah, this has been a total pleasure melody.
This has been a total pleasure. Where can people find both of you on the internet if they want to hear more from you? I'm on different social media sites. So I'm on Twitter and Blue Sky and at Lea Lippman. I'm on threads at prof. PROF Lea Lippman. Of course there's the podcast, Strix Grootney, which is out weekly on Mondays. I don't really produce TikTok content. I mostly just consume it. My dog has her own Instagram and that's miz.stv.doodle. She's named for Stevie
Next. And you know my dog's name is Steve. So we have Steve and Stevie. There you go. Melody, where can they find you? I'm mostly on Instagram these days. My handle that I made in 2011 and never changed is at Melodius 47. It's amazing. And I've been debating about whether I should make it more professional, but I don't want to. And you can hear my name in the credits of both Strix Grootney on Mondays and the Culture Study podcast on Wednesdays. And let me just put in a
little plug. I know that I created pressure last time I did this, but you do great honest book reviews. Yes. And also put in Taylor Swift content on a semi-regular basis. So Melody's book recommendations are without fail. I just consumed the entire Court of Thorns and Rose series on my birth vacation. And it was as good as she said it would be. I think I also introduced you to Emily Henry and Sarah McLean. Yes, you did. So impeccable. I also just want to say that Strix
Grootney is my favorite podcast for really understanding the world around me. It's basically the most important politics podcast that I listen to. Even though it's court focused, I think that it makes the world understandable. And I 100% appreciate that it's coming from women in that perspective. So thank you so much. And I hope everyone checks out both Strix Grootney and Melody's Instagram. Thanks for having me. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to the Culture
Study podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We have so many great episodes in the works and I promise you don't want to miss any of them. Next week we're talking about Paw Patrol with a real-life television critic who also happens to be a parent. It is so funny and surprisingly insightful. So stay tuned. If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you. Or submit a question for our subscriber-only advice time segment.
Check the show notes for a link to our sub-stack. The Culture Study podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson, and Melody Raoul. Our music is by Paddington Bear. On Instagram, you can find me at Anne Helen Peterson and this show at Culture Study Pod. That was so much fun. I could have gone another hour on it. I know. I know. I'm not thinking about
everything that I meant to bring up and didn't. I know. I know. Talk about the jet tracker. I didn't talk about the lyrics from you're losing me with my pain or such an imposition and like, all of the things, all of the things. And I didn't bring up Ivy. I meant to talk about why didn't Jason bring jeans for Jason. Like, he is a summonist icon.