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Just go to the substac, either to Culture Study Pod or to the newsletter and just Google, like, where's the podcast, like, you can figure it out or you can email me and I'll help you figure it out personally. And then the other thing I just want to note is if you are familiar with the Culture Studies style of star analysis, we are really talking about star image analysis. We're not trying to be mean to a star. We're talking about how a star resonates with their image means
in the broader cultural fabric. If you keep that in mind as we move through this episode, that's how Sam and I are approaching the question of Bradley Cooper. Okay, on with the show. When I think of Bradley Cooper, the first thing that comes to mind is and hear me out, Tracy Flick from Election. He has the same kind of tri-hard energy. And I remember, I watched Election when it came out several times as a young person not understanding
the trauma and tragedy behind Tracy Flick's character. Like, when you first see Election as a kid, you hate her. Then you watch it as an adult and you realize she is the victim. And so, if I want to be nice to Bradley Cooper, I try to look at him that way. That's so interesting. I think of him in the hangover because he's the least. Yeah, he's like, likable, but also in some ways, the least interesting character in that film. Like, one of the last times that he plays the straight man
in terms of humor, but also just like in everything about him. And Melody thinks of him an alias, which I didn't watch alias because it was like that weird post-college time when no one had TV, you know? Like, so I have this whole whole mind. It was like a purchase signal to not watch TV. I was like watching TV. I was in eighth grade and so I was shot off. It's so Bradley Cooper, as Will Tippin was like one of the dreamboats in life. Yeah. We use a toneboat. And I will say now that
I mean, I totally answered the question the wrong way. You asked me what I think of him as, but I just think of him as his other character because it's just like so much tryhard energy. But if I had to think of a character that comes to mind when I always think of just him in a movie, I think of how he tried so hard and a star is born to make that low, gravelly voice work. Yes. And it was annoying. And it was like Bradley, you could have just talked to my dude,
but this is the tracy flick of it all. Yeah. It's not just let me be competent or good. It's like, let me show you how much I can do. Let me show you how much I can do. And it's always that with him. And I feel like why I loved the hangover so much and him in the hangover so much is that he wasn't doing that yet. It seemed. Yeah. Well, and we're going to talk a lot about this and the answers to the questions to come. But I think part of what makes him interesting is he is not as good as some
other. Methody stars at erasing the signs of effort or at least at least at naturalizing it. Because like to me, Daniel De Lewis, I'm never like, oh my god, that fucker's so annoying, right? I'm just like, oh, what a guy. Like what an actor. Yeah. Well, and the thing about Daniel De Lewis is that like he's also not trying to write direct star in like, like, Bradley Cooper wants to control all the means of production in his film work. And that makes it
harder to digest, I think. This is the Culture Study podcast and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. And I'm Sam Sanders, co-host of Vibecheck and big fan of Anne Helen Peterson. Oh, this is complete honor to have you on the podcast today. I was one of the first guests on one of Sam's previous podcasts. And it was like the best conversation I had for the entire publicity cycle. And I have been a massive fan ever since. I remember that. And it was like
my template for like good book interview for a very long time. So thank you for that. Because I was just a baby trying it out. And I was like, I'm like, I'm going to talk about a whole book in just a whole man. But we did it. So long ago too, gosh, we're old pros now. That was like 2017. Yeah. Yeah. That was oh my god. Yeah. Okay. All right. That was for two fat two sluddy two out. Okay. So the title of this episode,
the working title this episode is like, what is going on with Bradley Cooper? Like, what is Bradley Cooper's deal? And we kept it like so broad. Because I think that there is this like complication to his image that we've grown with, right? Like unlike a lot of other stars, each film, there's something that's like complicating what I thought I understood about him. In a way that I think is pretty interesting. And that I also think that people can't get their
heads around. Like, yeah. Am I annoyed by him? Am I impressed by him? Am I like, whether or not I like the movie? Like, do I see what he's trying to do here? All of these things happening at once. And then all of the publicity stuff too, which is a whole thing. Yes. Yeah. It's a lot. And it's just like, I have more feelings about Bradley Cooper than I feel I need to. So I fold this closure. I tried to watch a myestro three times because I want to watch all the Oscar movies. I can
not get through it. And I tried. And listen, there are so many things that I pick up and put down. That is a story of my life. That is what we do as culture critics writers and thinkers. But something about the myestro of it all made me angry. I was angry at Bradley Cooper for wasting 27 minutes of my life. So have you tried to watch? Have you tried to watch it at home? I'm guessing. Yeah. Okay. This is hard. It's hard. This is really hard. And I saw it in the theaters.
The first week it came out in part because I knew that I would have this same reaction. If I tried to watch it at home because I would be like, this fucker. Like what is he trying to do here? In the first 30 minutes, like he's trying to do a lot. Like that outside scene with the cigarette where he's talking. It's he lays it on so thick. No. And it's just like we get it, Bradley. And you got to stick with it to kind of get to this larger picture of what he's trying to do with
this film, which whether it works or doesn't work. Side note, I don't think it ultimately works, but I'm still like, you did that, dude. Yeah. But I think that like this is something this is a good metaphor. Maybe for how we're trying to talk about Bradley Cooper is that he's trying to do something that you have to sit in your seat and like be uncomfortable and kind of cringe for the first 30 minutes in order for you to appreciate it. And then still
as a time. It doesn't work. Who has the time when it comes to a celebrity, right? Yeah. To have that sort of patience. I also found myself thinking about Maia Shura reading about it, not watching the whole thing. I very much was also like, who is he making this movie for? He's not even making this movie for the entire Academy. He's making it for a subset of Academy voters.
Yes. And you're allowed to do that. But it's really kind of interesting to see him go from like the mass market appeal of, you know, a star is born, which still got a mosqueers and the hangover to not just the niche film, but like an awards-bait film that isn't even for the entire awards community. Yeah. Like because most people don't necessarily like have the familiarity with the subject matter,
right? Like I was in a theater with a lot of grey hairs and I don't mean this to rug in a drugatory manner, just that like people who are older have a much deeper understanding of the cultural importance of Leonard Bernstein than I knew. He was probably like, metaphorically like a Kanye figure back in the day. Yeah. Genius. You're not going on. You want to know about him. Like Kanye meets Love Our Burton, right? Because he was also on TV every Sunday, right? Yeah.
And so, and like introducing the like importance of classical music to the masses. And I think that like that's part of the Academy. That's a big voting block in the Academy. Like boomers in the Academy, like boomers in the United States, political. Yeah. And like Bradley knows this. He is, if anything, a creature of Hollywood. Yeah. And he probably has everybody on speedout. And he knows who's voting for what, who's on what committee. So like, yeah, he made it for them.
He made it for them. And it's like, I guess that makes me have larger questions about what he wants to shape of his career to be. Only he knows. But I feel like he's on this like proving himself to that subset track that is like keeping him from making movies that a lot more people would love. And listen, we love Bradley Cooper when we love Bradley Cooper. Right. Or making movies that feel
like, yeah, no, just like that they aren't that it's not a word spate, right? And this is always hard because I think like a lot of movies are a word spate that are successful in a facing their words baitness. But let's segue into our first question. Okay. Yes. Okay. First question comes from Jen. And it's going to give us kind of the lay of the land with some of this discourse that circulates around. Why is Bradley Cooper suddenly someone we're supposed to be taking seriously? Why is it a snub
if he isn't nominated for every award ever? Why would a woman in her 20s who has her own stuff going on want to date him? Why do I just like him so much? And isn't related at all to why I also dislike Ben Affleck? Okay. I know. There's a lot going on there. Where do you want to start with that? I guess the awards baiting this of it. Like I think we forget how awards focused Bradley Cooper is because we like on top of being a big Oscar contender and Oscar winner a star is born was a
blockbuster, right? Yeah. So he he did two things at once. He made an awards bait movie and he also made a blockbuster hard to do hats off to him for that. But he's been chasing that glory for years. Even American sniper, which was a blockbuster that got him an Oscar nomination, right? Yeah. He kind of wanted that new that going in. I think what the difference is between now and those films is that they were able to be hits that were also awards bait. My strobe truth be told
is actually neither because in spite of those Oscar nominations, I don't think it wins any. I don't think it wins any. No. And I think the tide really turned on the film for various reasons. And we can talk about how much of his like eagerness to be in this conversation is a part of that. But you know, it kind of reminds me of like when I was in elementary school, I did the science fair because I was a big nerd. I was doing this goes. I'm loving this. There was there was this guy
whose dad knew exactly what sort of project to do to get to win the awards, right? And in fifth grade, I beat him because his science fair project was such a like clear dad helped me figure out how to game these awards. Exactly. Exactly. It was about like liquid absorption using diapers. I'm can't I have not thought about this in a long time. But it still haunts you. When you are trying so hard to win something or only understand validation through awards like this. Tracy Flick.
And there are reasons like what has it? What not to psychoanalyze, Bradley Cooper, when we're trying to analyze his image, but there is something interesting that happens when you can only feel like you are validated in the work that you do when it is recognized through awards that we understand have all of these problems with them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They really do. And it's like I also think the version of Hollywood leading man that Bradley Cooper is trying to do
or culturally less prepared to want and accept that. He wants to be not just the hot star, but the writer and director and the creator and the person in charge of everything. He wants to control it all. And when I think of like the kind of hot guys or alpha males that we culturally want right now, it's Travis Kelsey. Right. We want fun dudes along for the ride. This kind of intense dude who controls everything. Is that truly the vibe right now? Is that the vibe right now?
Right. You know, what do we want our big cute men to be? Yeah. It's interesting that Travis Kelsey is not the quarterback. I think about this a lot. Right? Yes. And he isn't even the alpha of the relationship. Taylor's the boss. And he knows it. And Travis shows up looking cute with that mustache. And you're like, okay. Okay. So I think about Bradley Cooper's antecedents in Hollywood in terms of leading men who have turned director and producer, right? Yeah. And the ones that
immediately come to mind are Clint Eastwood. Who directed him in American sniper? Right. And Kevin Costner. Who is a certified asshole. Everyone knows. Right. And Mel Gibson. Also. Also a certified asshole. Yeah. And he's what like I think you know, he is an asshole. He's beloved and hollow I would for many reasons, but he's an asshole. But here's the thing that just like you're named those names, what distinguishes those guys from Bradley Cooper is like they kind of at some
point just leaned into kind of being assholes. And that was what it was. Bradley Cooper still wants to be seen as a universal nice guy while also being the author in charge of everything. And that is a hard needle to thread, I think. He's chosen really interesting roles, I think. Like objectively, he has chosen an interesting trajectory. But again, part of it, like if I'm looking at it as image analysis, he's working so hard to texture his image in all of these ways. Like it
almost like that also reads as try hard to me similar. Yeah. Actually, you know who I forgot to mention in that list of people who are also trying to be directors and stars is Ben Affleck. Oh, yeah. Who is included in this question? Yes. But I personally like Ben Affleck more because I feel like Ben Affleck has leaned into the darkness. And you let's listen. He lets us in. Like in this roundabout way, we actually know a lot about his life. Yes. And we know about the JLo stuff.
We know about Jennifer Garner. We know about Anna the Armist and the Dunkin Donuts run and how it's problematic. We've seen that back tattoo. And actually, I was reading an old profile of Bradley Cooper written around the time a star is born came out. It was in the time. It was by Taffy. By Taffy, broadest or actor is my favorite profile writer of all time. Yes. And the whole article is about how he would give her nothing. Yes. At a certain point, you're supposed to talk a little
bit about your personal life. You're upbringing. What made you you and what made you want to make this role this way? He doesn't do that. And so I think we also expect if we're going to have an author figure that does it all and is a quote unquote, my strove. We also expect, especially in this age, for you to give us some bit of detail around your personal life to show us what made you that. Yeah. And Bradley Cooper never takes that bait. You know, he sober. I would love one good interview
about sobriety and how it related to particularly a star is born. Yeah. Never does it. Never does it. I would love in the press run from Maestro, which is all about a romantic relationship to talk about even obliquely how his relationships informed this role in this movie. He doesn't do it. He doesn't do it. Right. Instead, he lets a lot of people do a lot of speculation by speculation. And he knows we speculate. We expect. Listen, I'm a gay in LA.
All we do is talk about who's gay or not. And he's one of those question marks. And I'm going to leave it there because it's not my job to speculate. But I'm just saying offline. People speculate. Yeah. And he is not. You know, I he's talked a little bit about the sober stuff, but he only does it on podcasts. Oh. So, you know, he was roommates with Will Arnett in his early 20s. Oh, that sounds like trouble. He's gone. But that's when they got sober. At least it's my understanding.
Okay. And there's a little bit of that intimacy there. And I think that this is actually a very concerted reaction to the prickliness that he displayed in a star's born. And it was prickly. Right. So, or at least the press cycle for a star's born. So, I think that what's happening here, and this kind of this goes back to our question of why is it easy to dislike him or why do I feel the way that I do about him is to me, this is a calculated over compensation. You know, so he has like
because he couldn't do any press because of the sag straight. Oh, yeah. He did like, you know, this Philly Cheesesteak thing. He opened up a Philly Cheesesteak cart for one day. And like, Gigi Hadid showed up. I think I think with like more. Because all she does in her free time is
eat Philly Cheesesteaks, you know. And like, pretended to take a bite. And he's, you know, he's showed up at these awards shows like Ali Jones has this great issue of her, her, um, sub-steak that's all about how he's using all of these women in his life to like wield this idea of like, I'm a caring guy. So it's not just like, oh, I have a 20-year-old girlfriend. It's also I'm showing up here with my daughter. And here's my mom who's coming to the awards show, even though I go to the after party
with other someone else. And, you know, he used to be someone who would insist that pictures of his daughter would be blurred in every single like paparazzi anything. And now that he's doing the award circuit, he's just mind. Oh my god. Just see what I mean. Like, it just like it feels like. This is a thing. It's like here and you talk about him. And how he's obviously very gifted, but very calculated. I compare him to my at the moment favorite creative atore maestro. It's
macaela col. Macaela col who made chewing gum. Who I made. I made destroy you. And she writes these things, directs these things and stars in them, right? So she's doing what Bradley is doing. But the thing about macaela col is when you interview her, you realize she's not someone who calculates at all. She just feels the work and makes it. She has an idea. She goes off to the woods for months and writes it and it's tortured and it's hard and it's like, it's there. And then she comes out
in the world and she's like, what press do I have to do before I go back into my cave? She's very honest about it. And she talks about being nervous and not liking it and just making the art. She's talked about having to leave agents before because they didn't get her. And she talks about like the struggle of it and her anxiety around the struggle of it. And it makes it so much more personal. And it makes it so much more relatable. And Bradley never does that. He just does the
calculation. I'm not going to say robotically, but so method. He does the things you're supposed to do so well and then never talks about it, which makes it even weirder. Yeah. And I think that that speaks to what we want from this new generation of stars, right? Because Tom Cruise is a publicity robot. Like he knows exactly how to play this game. And no one's like, hey, Tom, could you stop being a robot? Yeah. That's very Tom Cruise of him. But with someone of this generation
of stars, there's a real expectation that like, okay, if you hate publicity, we get it. That's your thing. Talk about it a little bit. Talks that why you hate it. Like, and instead. Here's how I feel why I feel he doesn't do that. Yeah. Instead, we get interviews like the one he did with Taffy, where he's like, I don't see any upside to telling you anything about my personal life, right? Which just also I don't see any upside to not giving Taffy what she wants. Come on. Give me red her.
Right now, what he's doing is he's like using images to kind of tell his story, which works for someone like Angelina Jolie, but she knows that periodically she has to like do a bombshell interview with Vanity Fair to balance it out. And she will. And she's very good at that when she needs to. Exactly. Yeah. So this next question is a little more charitable to Bradley Cooper. It comes from Melissa and Melody's going to read it. Why is everyone so mad at Bradley Cooper anyway?
Everything I've read about him is that he's very kind and will shepherd anyone through their attempts at sobriety. Feels like we're being unfair to him. Okay. All right. So this is I think whether we're talking about Bradley Cooper or any star. Sometimes I think this gets to like the heart of difficulty in having a conversation about a star because I'm also sure that Bradley Cooper is a pretty kind person in his personal life. Right. And we're talking more about the affect of his
image. Totally. Okay. So like I think about you remember when Jennifer Lawrence was like in her Oscar season. Yeah. She won like did she get one or more than one? She was up for a few. Yeah. She's like, yeah. There was several lines of playbook. She had a run. Yeah. And I remember for like a year or two on at least one or two red carpets every season, she would trip. Yeah. She would just trip. Yeah. It was funny. And it was like a pratfall. And it was always like, oh my god, I'm so
clumsy. But you know what? I think I think it was on purpose because Jennifer Lawrence knows that when we see someone that good at what they do and that pretty and that charming and that charismatic, we need something about them to not be perfect. Right. Something. And I don't think Bradley Cooper understands that. Yeah. I don't think he understands it. And I don't think he performs clumsy enough in public for us to be like, aw, shucks, he might be just like us.
Well, so here's the interesting thing and where sobriety comes in here because I think that actually sobriety can be a way that starts. Yeah. That it really humanizes and emphasizes like the fact that like they have vulnerabilities like all the rest of us. Yeah. And you know, we mentioned previously that he talks about it a little bit in podcasts. But it's almost like he's at that point in sobriety where he's been sober for so long that it's not he doesn't even talk about
anymore. Yeah. Or that like it's not as raw and like exactly. I mean, exactly. I everyone should be able to be wherever they are in their sober journey. And also he doesn't owe us that story. Yeah. He doesn't owe it to us, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it just doesn't work quite the way that it maybe would, I think in. And and also we the other key thing is that he did not get sober in the public eye, right? So it doesn't work the same way as say Robert Dunne Jr's trajectory.
Or even like a singer like Sia who I interviewed her years ago and all she wanted to talk about was alcoholics anonymous. Then you realize one of the biggest hits of her career, Shandilear is all about over drinking. And she talks about it, you know, like we are we are primed to accept celebrity like that. Yeah. Especially when there's this whole cottage industry now of celebrities who want to talk to you about how they're always doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That's also the Liberty podcast hearing them talk about the work. Yes. And Bradley Cooper is not a part of that system. Yeah. That would be an interesting thing to listen to those podcasts that he's done with like someone that he knows as well as well, aren't it? But yeah, he's not in the like I do think that there is this expectation of celebrities now that they do like Mark Marren, Dak Shepherd, right? And then Dak Shepherd now has like an alcoholic anonymous segment on his show.
Right. Seriously? Yeah. When they talk about super stuff. Yeah. Like it's a whole thing. Yeah. So what about this idea that we're being unfair to him? What do you think about that? We are. But you know what, buddy? You're rich and famous and have rewards. No, it's like celebrities to get famous and then get mad because they're famous. You chose this. Right. And so it's like if we start to like, Bradley Cooper is not in danger of physical harm.
Bradley Cooper is not experiencing horrible harassment online because of who he is. And his sexuality or his whatever. Bradley Cooper is fine. You know, like Bradley Cooper is actually fine. Bradley Cooper's biggest problem is that he's not going to get another Oscar this year. Yeah. That's his biggest problem. Right. So I don't try to beat myself up over a feeling
weird about Bradley Cooper. I really don't. Well, and here's the thing. He's not going to have like the Oscar curse where you get nominated and maybe you win the award and then you never get offered another role in Hollywood. Yeah. How long was that good role and good work for us here? The thing that happens to so many women, particularly women of color who win Oscars in Hollywood or who are not nominated. Howie Berry's career got worse after the Oscar. Right. I still can't believe that. I still
can't believe that. Swordfish. Remember that? Yes. Jesus Christ. She's topless in it. It's very, it's like a very important, I think to many men in my life was this valueberry topless in it. But yes, that was not her career getting more textured and interesting after her Oscar. I also wondered with Bradley and thinking of things that could humanize him. Does he play villains? Has he ever played a villain? Right. Well, I think this is his thing is he's like, I play
complicated men who are you know who were complicated villain. Go ahead, finish your thoughts. Sorry. No, like because I think like his character is his character and a star is born a villain. Is his character and my survival and like you could read it that way in a certain capacity, right? But does he think they're villains? No. There you go. No. Really good point. I was just like, you know, glossing over his history. Like he produced the Joker. Isn't that weird? Oh,
wow. The Heath Ledge of the what's his face? Joaquin Phoenix. So maybe he's like, I'll produce a movie with a villain, but I wouldn't play one. The Intel starter kit movie. Yes. I mean speaking of another, so Joaquin Phoenix is a great example of a star who like doesn't care if anyone thinks he's an asshole. Yeah. And we all just think he's an asshole. Right. It's just like here I am. I make the movies I want to make. Like this is what I do. And here's the thing like, would we actually
enjoy Bradley Cooper if he just went full villain, full asshole? Like as a hypothetical, if he just became Joaquin Phoenix, if he just became a dick and just still making stuff that was good in some respect, would I be more okay with him? I don't know. Right. You think you would? You know, I think he would be less interesting to me. Or the other thing that he could do is become one of these method actors who really resist publicity and every capacity.
I agree. And I think that that is probably that's what he wants. Right. Because I think that he thinks that publicity is feminizing in some capacity. But I don't think he would ever do it because he craves the Academy's approval so much. And the Academy calls upon you to be essentially a mouthpiece for the entire, you know, the all of Hollywood. And if you are resisting publicity and we know this from no bueno, yet many past Oscar runs at Murphy lost his Oscar because he wouldn't do press.
Right. Monique. Same thing, right? Like, yeah. Did she, she didn't lose the Oscar. It's just that she didn't get roles, right? She didn't get any work after that. And then she went on this kind of tear and now she's getting even less work. Yeah. But yeah, like you have to be willing, you have to be a willing player in the game on the team. Yeah. You have to. And he's trying to do that. But you can tell that he kind of hates himself for his own eagerness to do this. I want to
ask you a follow up on what you said. Yeah. You mentioned that you think Bradley Cooper finds press feminizing. Yeah. And that makes me want to ask you what your theory might be of what Bradley Cooper thinks of the idea of masculine and feminine in his work and his persona. I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. It's so complicated, right? Because I think that he wants, he has long wanted to deconstruct masculinity, right? Yes. Because I think in a certain kind of white masculinity.
Like he's like, when I see the work he's doing in a star is born, he's tearing down or inspecting a certain type of white rocker, white musician, white star. Yes. And I get it. And I'm like, all right, you could have deconstructed more, but you kind of started. Right. Well, in I know you haven't finished my story yet. But what will I ever. One of the many arguments of the film is the way that one person's genius eclipses everyone else's around him. And he thinks that this film is a tribute to
Carrie Mulligan's character whose Leonard Bernstein's wife. It's not like he's trying to like that. It's like it's all about him, right? It is. It is. But he there are certain shots that he does. It's not a spoiler like the ending shot of the film. It's all about her. Like it's he thinks that it's supposed to be about like here are the wages of all encompassing specifically like masculine genius. But it's not like the critique isn't fully launched. The critique isn't as good as he
thinks it is. No, not at all. But I think. And what if hypothetical, what if a better critique of that kind of masculinity would have been a film directed by a woman with him starring in it? There you go. This is the thing also about Bradley Cooper that annoys us, I think. It's good as he is at being the jack of all trades writing, directing starring in. He could make even better work if
he collaborated. His work might be better if he collaborated. Yes. And this is such a good segue to the next question, which is referencing the Ali Jones substack gossip time that I mentioned earlier before. So this comes from McKenzie. This is a broad question. But on Ali Jones substack, gossip time she had a good piece on Bradley Cooper's Oscar women and how he uses the women in his life to further his career goals. So broadly, I guess my question is what do women get out of
Bradley Cooper? And I will acknowledge that Becoops has never done it for me personally. Okay. Listen, I'm one. He's fun to look at. That's what we get. I'm not a woman, but I'm a gay and I'm gonna tell you I like to look at that man. I sure do. And yeah, he was named sexiest man alive in 2011. Who isn't? At this point, who has not been named people sexiest man. Joe Biden sexist man alive. 2024. You know, there was some point when he was the vice president that I would not
have been out of business. Oh, he was hot back in the city today. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't see him as a sex symbol. Do you? I'm gonna say what I see him as. I see him as a pretty doll. But I feel like he's one of those people where you're like, gosh, you're gorgeous. Yeah. But then you're like, would we enjoy our time together? Would you be a fully embodied human being around me? Because that's romantic. So here's the thing that I sometimes forget about Bradley Cooper is that
he grew up in Felly. He went to Villanova for a year and then he finished at Georgetown and then he went and got an MFA. Right away. I think like pretty close. And he went to the actor studio in New York. So he has this past as someone who is like, like, I actually think, and I don't necessarily think this is true of all stars in Hollywood. I think that you would have an interesting conversation with him about things that have nothing to do with Hollywood. Right? Like I think that he
is interested in the world around him. Yeah. Has learned how to speak multiple languages. He does. He speaks, he speaks French. He studied abroad in Exxon Pro-Malance. Like he is an interesting person in that capacity. Like has, has challenged himself in different ways. And like the thing I always want to be careful because I don't think that he is necessarily smarter than other stars in Hollywood because I don't think going to college necessarily makes you smart. But I do think it makes you
like you just learn how to think about the world around you. That's part of what college does. Exactly. But I do think that it gave him some of this like seriousness that like that's part of what we're railing against is like. Well, yeah. He's like MFA dude, right? Like he told us and he's like a student of the craft in a way that you find a little tedious. Sometimes there's all these old clips of him. Apparently back in the day, this amazing interview
show called Inside the Actors Studio. Oh, yeah. Hosted by James Lipton where he just interviewed stars. They would let students ask questions sometimes on these shows. Bradley Cooper was one of the most frequent student question askers on Inside the Actors Studio. So there's video of young Bradley Cooper asking James Lipton and these stars craft questions. And he's so intensely into craft. And it's like even that, it might have been earnest, but it can easily feel try hard.
Yeah. No, no one loves the person who always asks all the questions in class. No, and all the craft questions too, right? Yeah. Like Melody just put in the chat that he would never be on a bulletin board in Times Square in like Calvin Klein underwear. Hell no. Hell no. Even though he could. This is part of the interesting thing about like publicity or the way that he has engaged in like different brand partnerships and that sort of thing.
Like he was in a super bowl commercial with his mom. Oh, you know, like that's that's what he would is willing to do. Like that's a sort of sellout he's willing to do, but he doesn't want to be a sex symbol. And this gives us back to this question of like what what do women get from Bradley Cooper? And yeah, what do you think? As not a woman, you're going to have to answer this one. I mean, I think that it's never a difficult question to understand what people want out of proximity
from fame. That's not hard. Yeah. And like his daughter, she doesn't have any agency in this and like decided whether or not she gets to be on the red carpet with him or not. She just wants to be not her dad. But it is interesting that he hasn't had any relationships with like super prominent stars. Anytime they can't be a bigger star than him. Yeah. And it reminds me of Leo actually, right? Oh, yeah. He gets older. They stay young. And dating models who don't talk that much.
Right? No one's image is in danger. Like even like Gigi Hadid, like she's she's a famous person, but she's not like a person who's. She's not going to be serious in the way that he is being serious. Yes. Yeah. But then that complicates things, right? Because if he wants to only be associated with serious things, then why doesn't he have like relationship with other serious? Serious people. I don't know. But then it's like, but then you lose control. Like at that point, your creation
of self has to be a group project. Right. I don't think he wants that. No. I think of Jay-Z and Beyonce, right? The most powerful power couple in the industry. And at this point in their careers, both of their careers revolve around each other. They revolve around each other, right? They've made albums about their relationship and response albums to it. You know, Jay-Z wins a Grammy and he
goes on stage and he gives a speech about his wife. You know, like they have to find a way to not just be a husband and wife duo, but have their art catered to the relationship in some way. I don't think Bradley Cooper would ever want to do that or share that kind of intellectual space with anybody else. Well, and this is what's interesting about the evolving relationship of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey is like by entering into a relationship with Taylor Swift, you are
acknowledging that you are part of a group project. And that you might be on an album as a point. Right. And that's what her boyfriend, Joe, never wanted to be part of that group project. Exactly. Exactly. And I think the example actually of Beyonce and Jay-Z is such a good one because they have to be collaborative with one another. Like they are in this space where like and they have to support one another and understand that like another person's success is not
your failure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like when you hear about how they actually work behind the scenes, it's kind of remarkable. Folks who I've talked to in the know are like, oh, well, you know, it's like they collaborate so much musically that if you listen to the way she rap sings on an album like Renaissance, you hear Jay-Z. You hear Jay-Z. And I don't mind it, right? But like they have, they do this wonderful bit of as osmosis the word. Yeah.
Like they feed off of each other, not just in the business sense, but like creatively. Yeah. And I don't always love it, but I find it quite interesting. Yeah. And I don't know that Bradley Cooper would ever want a relationship that has that kind of exchange. Well, and this is why I think he loved like play acting. There's sexual tension with Lady Gaga, but would never actually be in relationship with her, right? Yeah. Yeah. Also fun fact because I reread Taffy's profile
of Bradley ahead of the taping today. The scene in the film where they're in the fight while she's in the bathtub and he calls her ugly. Yeah. That was not scripted. That was off the dome from Bradley. Oh my God. What? Anywho, sorry, just had to share. Okay. So our last question is about what we started the conversation with with the discussion of Tracy Flick. It's this two-parter and it's about tri-hardness. So first step is Stephanie. Bradley Cooper seems to be very keen on being involved with
quote-unquote Oscar-friendly movies such as Starsborne in 2018 and El Mistro. Is he trying too hard to win an Oscar? And do you think he'll win one this year for Mistro? And then the second one is from Allison. I'm not a very, very online person. So I don't know if this is a common opinion on Bradley Cooper, but I feel like he is a very good example of the gender differences in the
public's reception of quote-unquote tri-hards. There's something about the way he presents himself that reminds me a lot of Anne Halfaway, but the way she was received in the 2010s and the way he's received now diverged really strongly. Okay. So going back to the Tracy Flick of all of this, what traits in a celebrity make them seem like a tri-hard? A personality that seems too fixed. Like you're too stiff, you're too much of one thing. We don't see a range of emotion.
Yeah. It reminds us of ourselves and folks that we love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. An inability to laugh at yourself. Yep. And an inability to share parts of you or yourself that make you seem vulnerable. And like this idea that like the only thing that matters is winning. Yeah. All of those are absolutely correct. I would say the last one that is I think pretty unfair is theater kidness. I remember when I was writing about Anne Halfaway in like the, you know, the early 2010s.
And my opinion of her actually shifted pretty profoundly because I used to find myself incredibly annoyed by her and then kind of turned around on her. Yeah. She never annoyed me because as a closeted band nerd in high school, you know who saved me all the time. And the theater kids. And half the way. And half the way was my bestie. And half the way took me to prom. Okay. Like. Well, that's what I'm saying is that like I had a lot of theater kids who said to me,
like she, this is genuinely she's excited. She is emotive. Like this is not. Well, even her Oscar speech, she was like, I had this dream and it worked out. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, girl. You can save that. I felt for Maddie. She said that. I love Maddie. She said that doesn't everybody who goes to Hollywood to be a star have that as their fucking dream. Right. And we're mad at her for that. Sorry.
I just, uh, uh, stand hat. So I stand her no matter what. So I have like really tried to, you, especially because I think that that the perception of Anne Hathaway at that time was so framed in contrast to Jennifer Lawrence's cool girl performance. Right. So I'm trying to, not even cool girl like clumsy girl. Right. Right. Like, oh, I don't even care about the Oscar. Like I, right. Like I, I, yeah, I just write you to like take a piece of pizza and like slam it
against her like Oscar and go. Yeah. I did that. Yeah. But so even her on hot ones now, this Oscar season, it's like, yeah, you're doing that. And listen, it's fun. But like she has a, she has a stick. Yeah. And so I'm wary. And I, I heed this person's like, weariness too that like maybe some of what we're reacting to is just like him wanting to win an Oscar. And I also think, yeah, he wants to be a steam.
He wants to be rewarded and esteemed by his peers. And I understand that desire. And I think like part of our discomfort with it is that it seems almost unbecoming for a man to want it that much. Especially now we might have been able to abide this kind of dude 20 years ago. Yeah. But not now, baby, we want to, we want our men soft or softer. Yeah. You know, like give us,
give us some more vulnerabilities, some more softness. Or like would we be less weird about Bradley Cooper and all of this if he were just directing or just starring and not doing all of the things. Right. Right. Like what I found annoying as a former musician who heard all about the conducting he practice for years to conduct. I've talked to actual conductors. And they're like, yeah, girl, he didn't need to do all that truly. You didn't need to do all that, right? And it's
like if if he just pulled back the try hard on every level, do we like him more? Because like when you compare him to Anne Hathaway, you feel that same try hard energy. But like she was just acting in a supporting role. Yeah. This dude is doing everything. He's controlling all the means of
production. As I said earlier. And that's just weird. Well, and I think this may be for me at least explains why I have so much more like softness in my heart for Ben Affleck is, you know, when Ben Affleck returned to directing, like returned to Hollywood, like the beginning of his redemption arc was with gone baby gone. A movie that he does not appear in. There you go. There you go. Like he de-centered himself from the narrative. And I think wisely understood.
Has Bradley Cooper ever de-centered himself from any editorial creative narrative? And I think the other thing, you know, feeding on what we were just talking about, Ben Affleck is in a creative collaboration with JLo. Like it's a very different creative collaboration. And some of it's over like Dunkin' Donuts commercials. But it's a collaboration. Yeah. And like I love that he hates being famous and she loves being famous. Like it is so adorable.
Oh yeah. It's fun to watch. It's fun to watch. And they understand that about themselves too. They know the game. They know the game and they play the game. Bradley Cooper knows the game and pretends that he doesn't want to play the game. But it's like you know the game. And you know what you want. Yeah, it's where I will say also just thinking about Anne Hathaway because I always do. And check me on this theory I have. But a lot of what humanized her to people after the whole
she's too much of a try hard was her getting divorced. And there was this moment post divorce where it seemed like she was in Metamorphosis and all of a sudden it was like slay mama. It was really weird. And she did a bunch of roles that are weird or interesting or like I don't know she just like she was doing stuff that wasn't. What was the one that was really hard to watch Rachel getting married? Oh my god. Good god. Which people love and I can like I have to sit on my hands the entire time.
Yes. Yes. So much. It's rough. But I think what I if we were Bradley's publicist. I think he has a lot of softness in there. And again like this is one of those difficult things where it's like to stars OS professionals. But I think like there is a it doesn't have to be like poor your guts out that sort of vulnerability just like lean into that softness. The same way that he's leaned into different performances like go for that. Yeah. Also stars don't owe us anything.
But we also don't owe them our love and support. True. So you know what it takes to get folks to like you. If you want us to like you more than do it. I mean this is the thing like yeah it is an exchange. And someone who understands this exchange perfectly is Taylor Swift. She knows that she doesn't have to do anything besides make the music. But if she wants that level of devotion from fans. She gives them the things. She gives them the crumbs. She gives them the relationship
stuff. She gives them the numerology whatever things she's doing. She plays the game with her audience. And she knows that like it's an exchange. And Bradley does this thing where he never wants to buy into the exchange. Bradley Cooper is like I want an A plus on the group project. But also I don't want anyone else in my group. And I don't want to do that that whole. And I want to go to the meetings. And I want to do the thing exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Like Taylor understands that like
the work is never just the work. Yeah. It's about performance of self. It's about relationality to your fans and the media and Bradley's like well I should just be so good at what I do that y'all just all give me all the awards and are always watching me anyway. And you know and if he wants if he wants a different path forward there are those that he could just direct. Right. He could just direct. He could just direct. You know who just makes his movies who directed poor things which
I thought is the best film of the year. There goes Lantemos. Yes. So good. He just makes his little movies. He just makes his little movies and he lets Emma Stone shine which he should. You know. But I love that movie and I keep thinking about him and his career because I've been obsessed with poor things and I'm obsessed with him and his work. And he literally just goes into his cave and makes his little things. Yeah. And persuades really incredible actors. Some of whom could have
had careers similar to Bradley Cooper's like I'm thinking of Colin Farrell. Yeah. Wow. What a different career he was destined for and then chose an incredible right turn. And now I love him. Like I will watch him in anything. All right for our last question it's time for ask and anything Sam. Can you stick around for just one more? Of course. Now if you as a listener need advice or just want to do a little Q&A you can ask anything. These can be very serious, very
not serious. Everything is fair game. Normally the segment is just for paid subscribers. So if you like what you hear head to the culturestudypod.substac.com to become a subscriber so you never have to miss out on this part of the show. And so that you know that you're paying for stuff that you like to consume. Okay. Today's question comes from Ruthie. I'm a 38 year old woman with real world issues problems in life to navigate. So the escape of celebrity culture is amazing. Why do I feel so
guilty and judged when my knowledge of celebrity gossip comes up? Honestly I can't buy a copy of us weekly without blurting out. I love reading trash like this or feeling pissed off when someone very judgmentally says oh I don't keep up on that stuff when anything celebrity is mentioned. Ruthie's friends are missing out. I just like celebrity culture is amazing. It is such a great way to think about the world without thinking directly about the world. And some ways I'm protected
from this question because I'm able to. Yeah I like that. Right and I'm like oh yes I have a PhD which somehow like legitimizes it which it should like if anyone's really it has been reading us weekly forever they have a PhD. You know what I mean? And I think that like the same way that I think it's cool to have a lot of them knowledge about your favorite sports stars or any other hobby that you're super into. It is a way of getting really into something and knowing a lot about something
that is not your job right. In low stakes. Yeah. Yeah low stakes but also like oh when I think about the star and like what are my thoughts about them? The the thing I often challenge people to do if they like for some reason feel any sort of shame or guilt about reading trash is like sometimes be like oh why do I think that way about this? Like why is my reaction the way it is just taking like doing a little bit of like self interrogation there because it's usually pretty interesting.
Yeah. But what what's your thought when people talk to you about this sort of like shame and pop culture just probably. So one I think you know who never asks themselves these questions of themselves. Yeah. Straight man. Straight man. Yeah. They like what they like and that's it. Yeah. They like what they like and that's it right. Yeah. So I would encourage anyone from a marginalized
background to like what they like and just say that's it right for one. For two I think for a long time part of why I've you know said to myself I take celebrity seriously and entertainment seriously and pop culture seriously is because for a lot of us growing up the things that give us
the script for how to be its movies its TV its music its books it's celebrities how they move through the world you know I grew up in a very pinnacle stole religiously conservative environment where I was obviously queer from day one and I was never actually around gay men around them for real until like adulthood like adulthood when I left home. Yeah. And so I realized as an adult now a lot of what gave me the early script for how to like conceive of homosexuality period was TV
in movies. Yeah. Because my family wasn't teaching me that my church wasn't teaching me that. So in many ways like the fluff of TV and film and celebrity was actually educating me right. So it's always worth taking seriously especially if you're someone from a marginalized background because this stuff gives you the script to help understand your world and the world for one.
For two I think that like this stuff actually is important. Yeah. People will talk about sports or they'll talk about business and they'll take it seriously because they look look at all these these dollars involved it's a big business. Do you know what is a multi-billion dollar industry in America cosmetics. Yeah. Why can't I take that fucking seriously. Yeah. Do you know what's a multi-billion dollar business. The Real Housewives franchise. The Real Housewives franchise. Why can't I take
that seriously. Yeah. You know years ago I wrote a piece for I want to say C.J.R. and talked about it on Las Culturistas of all places but I spent a long time when I was a news reporter grappling with these distinctions between hard and soft news and you know this yeah there's some things that are
hard news and there's some things that are soft news and that's just Bible and I realized the older I got the things that they say are hard news are things that typically straight men like and the things that they say are soft news are usually the things that women and gays are into.
Yeah. And that's it. And so we have to understand that we live in a social context in which the very question about is it is it a guilty pleasure is it trash it is and that is informed by notions of power and patriarchy and if we want to go there white supremacy so unpack that shit too unpack it and I think that's it. No I know I think you all I need is like a little bit of prompting and then
I'm like let's talk about this question and another thing and another thing. But like she says that she gets like annoyed with herself when she gets pissed off when someone says oh I don't keep up with that stuff like you should be pissed off that is an incredibly dismissive way to react to someone's interests. What if I was like like someone started talking about football and I just was like oh I find that like an incredibly abrasive and stupid thing to pay attention to. Right.
Oh yeah speaking of football yeah I had someone because so last year when Beyoncé was touring
because I could and the money was good that year I want to see her four times. I want to see Beyoncé twice in London and twice in LA and someone trying to be smart at one point I'm having a conversation this dude is like you want to see Beyoncé four times why it's the same concert uh each time and I said do you like football and you say yeah and I go if you could go to all of your favorite football teams games for the whole season would you and he was like yeah oh
I was like why because no matter what happens I'm gonna play again next year right. They shut the fuck up but it's like we are all allowed to enjoy what the fuck we enjoy yeah we are as long as it's not harm in other people like exactly get into your thing be into thing like life is hard
and we die alone find some joy in this motherfucking earth us weekly is there for you and do not feel like you have to defend it like if anything if anything it allows you if someone sees you reading a copy of us weekly maybe they'll have a more interesting conversation with you because you can
talk about whoever's on the cover right like I don't fuck anyone who says that you should be feel shame for being in just celebrity culture but that's also also this yes yeah also I've had to learn through just living life as an adult we think sometimes that everyone is watching everything
we're doing yeah everyone's seeing what we care about and what we want and how we are most people don't care yeah like everyone is a star of their own movie we sometimes think that we're the star of the world's movie no we're not yeah people actually don't care about what you're doing as much as
you think you are live your life yeah so figure out if you like it if you're doing something because you like it like that's part of the joy of getting older I think it's been like do I really like doing this thing I want to do this thing I'm gonna do it man you know what I would do I would get a
subscription to us weekly and have it delivered to your house yes and get a subscription for the person who questions your love of us weekly it is into their house I will say that us weekly has gone downhill in so many different ways there are much better gossip publications I would personally
suggest hung up by Hunter Harris and Ali Jones's gossip time both of which are fantastic because that's a future of gossip yeah so that's a great way for us to finish but thank you so much Sam for coming on the show if people want to find more from you where can they find you right now
on the internet I host a podcast all about the culture it's amazing big C it's called vibe check it's from Stitcher and it comes out every Wednesday I co-host it with my dear friends Poet and Buzzfeed alum Said Jones and Tony award winning Broadway producer Zach Stafford former editor-in-chief
of the advocate we are three journalists who are also black queer men who just took our group chat and made it a podcast and it is a riot every week I think I would like it besides that you can catch me on all social platforms at Sam Sanders and on those platforms I announce when I'm on other shows like recently Slades Put a Cold Gap Test amazing thank you again Sam this was a dream come true for me thanks for listening to the Culture Study podcast be sure to subscribe wherever you get your
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