Hey everyone, this is Anne. This is a special New Year's Day episode of the Culture Study Podcast. At first we were like... Do we want to put anything out on this day? It's kind of a weird day. Also, we want to avoid like any sort of, I don't know, cliche or gross resolution content.
But then we figured out that we were taping an episode about therapy speak and how in a weird way, this is a perfect episode for the beginning of the new year. And there's also a great ask and anything discussion at the end, which is. actually about resolutions so stay tuned this is a really fun and interesting and complicated episode i know that sounds weird it's all three things at once but it's possible and i can't wait to hear your thoughts
Thank you for feeling comfortable to share that with me. But I will respectfully be withdrawing my engagement on this specific issue in order to maintain the emotional bandwidth required. to keep my growth and health and well-being furthering. in this current period, so I respect you to go forward with that in your own space, but I will be withdrawing my engagement in this current instance.
Hi, everyone. This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. I'm Ash Compton, a licensed psychotherapist and cultural theorist and the co-host of the podcast Bad Therapist. And I am Rachel Monroe. I'm a writer at The New Yorker and also a co-host of Bad Therapist. I love the show. It's...
perfect listening for when you're making dinner. And it's just a perfect accompaniment and calming because you two are also friends. And I always love that in a show when the people who are doing the show are actually friends. Yeah, there's a deep bed of references. We try not to do, right, a lot of lore. Try not to do too many inside jokes.
Well, my favorite was like in the intro to the show, you do like this 12 minute, like basically like this is what the show is going to be. And you talk about your own bad therapist. And the story about the person in Baltimore who...
Rachel, you were going to them and all of your friends were also going to them. And like so that Ash could get the reference. You said the name of the person and then you bleeped it out after the fact. Like it's exactly how if I were describing a story to my best friend, like how I.
would do that so I really loved that um but can you just say a little bit about how you decided that you wanted to do the show and and kind of like your your dual expertise in this topic I think it kind of started it's
It was born out of just the conversations that we would have all the time just as friends, the things that we're interested in. I think we both share the habit of when... we really care about something all we want to do is like critique and dissect it and like kind of pick it apart so you know it's not like an anti-therapy podcast we both are in therapy ash is a therapist but we just found ourselves like you know
I'm a reporter. I found myself kind of covering stories of just various like manipulations and scams. Even the things that I wasn't covering, just seeing so much of it out there and social media, the way that therapy speak is pervading so much of the world. And then, you know, probably like on our 15th conversation, we're like, what if we had microphones?
And I think because my work is so private, I have had so many wonderful open conversations with you about your work that's quite public. And it's been like just nice to like talk about CADs and grifters in the real world that like you. at times report on. That's not the only thing you do, but you know, you will at times like find that lens.
And yeah, some of these folks desired or I think required kind of a more critical lens that we could look at with our two expertises combined. Yeah. Today we're going to look at the rhetoric of TherapySpeak and how it infuses. And I think facilitates a lot of the manipulation that happens, like in terms of looking at these specific grifters and that sort of thing. But then... There's just this vast well of precedence. And I loved the episode about shadow and shadow speak and shadow self.
I had been kind of aware of it. It's not really on like my TikTok page, but I had heard stuff that's like related to this. And the way that you drill down to like look at, oh, like here is where this comes from in like Jungian.
philosophy like this has like this is something that we actually like is a real thing that we talk about yes and jungian psychotherapists like would talk about it but then here is how it gets manifested and spread on tick tock in a very different way right that's like very i think
perverted in some ways from its times. Bastardized for sure. I mean, that's the thing though, Anne, like all of this of course has a root. Like all of these words came from somewhere, you know, it would be one thing if we were saying like, gosh, this is made up language. Like, what are you doing? This is just, they're just inventing therapy language. But it's, I think it's more bothersome because there are actual roots and like source material that.
doesn't get appropriately discussed often, but it's like, these are actual concepts. And I think that's partly why they... are able to travel so far. I think something like we haven't done an emotional labor episode yet, but we definitely will. Like something like that, a phrase like that is really.
catalyzes something that people see in the real in their lives a lot but then it becomes as it is like transferred onto social media it just becomes kind of simplified and flattened but then also like extended and applied in all sorts of kind of wild ways um But the kind of need to name something is at the root of it. And so that's what's like compelling, but also frustrating about the way that a lot of these concepts just...
are out there. And I think we'll get into this when we answer the specific listener questions. But I do think that there is this feeling of like, oh, now I know this word that explains. everything everything is illuminated my life is solved my relationships are solved and I think that a lot of like it's almost like a hack right it's like yeah
A therapy hack is just learning. It is a hack. Yeah. I think optimizer culture definitely turns up the volume of this and the speed, the desired speed of learning it. And like neither, I don't want to speak for you, Rachel, but I'm not against people learning things. or learning them even quickly. Like our world is pretty disintegrated right now. So like whatever works honestly. And again, it just gets like, like you said, like illuminates everything, but it just still feels shallow.
Which is why you need more and more of it, right? Because it's like, oh, this explains everything. But it doesn't really. So then you need the next concept and the next concept and the next concept. Yeah, totally. Can we talk a little bit about what we mean when we say therapy speak, just to kind of set the terms for this episode? What do you think of Ash? I think of boundary, trauma, gaslight. Yeah. Narcissist, toxic and attachment.
I'm like, I think about this all of the time. Do you find that people that you see in your practice, do they come in knowing those words and wielding those words? Sure. Yeah, which again, I'm not against. And like, you know, there's also a ton of like pop psych books that have just like, you know, that arena. Rachel, you'd know more about this, but like that in the publishing era has gotten like more and more proliferated too. So I'm not opposed.
to or it's not surprising if someone comes in and they've already read like a tome of information from like some of these pop psych books, you know. Or sometimes people are reading like Jungian source material. Like I practice psychodynamic, like kind of modern psychoanalysis. type of therapy. So I also
I might not be a good one to answer this question because I feel like I tend to attract intellectual artists, musicians, designers, people who want to be digging in anyway. Yeah. But I talk to other therapists who practice more like behavioral CBT.
And they are especially sick of the TikTokification language. Yeah. Rachel, are there any words that... that ash didn't use that you would add to our lexicon i was just i was like what a what a swift and definitive list and you weren't even like looking at the computer like this wasn't like a reference list no no and we did not know that question in advance that really is
I don't have notes on it. Truly off the dome. Truly, I can't think of anything to add. You know, we talked about words, but I would also add like a tone of voice. Like there's like therapy voice, right? Or even like I think specifically of the now viral clip of the press tour for Wicked. Where the journalist is like, just people are holding space for this. And like it's some of it is like this incredible sincerity. Yeah. And just like.
If you count, like if you contradict me, then this will, I'm so fragile that things will fall apart almost. Yeah, there's like a reverence, but there can also be the kind of other side of that tone is like scolding. What was funny about that clip to me, though, is like I'm sure you've seen the aftermath, right? Where like Cynthia and Ariana, if I can first name basis them, are like, we don't know. Like, what was she talking? Like, what was even being talked about? So the holding space becomes.
so archetypal that the space is more important than the like you know maybe the fragility of the moment if someone were to pop up like a balloon and was like what are you what are we talking about here it was like everyone was just in this like reverence reverie mode it was so interesting and I also think therapy speak is very wound up in the discourse of the internet and so like what Rachel said just now about how it's both
like accusatory and defensive at the same time, right? Like it's on offense and defense simultaneously, which is a posture that I think a lot of us by necessity have taken up. on the internet but you see it very vividly when you're when you're using therapy speak i think another branch of it is the the compulsion to diagnose and be diagnosed so some of that is like as you're saying like narcissist that's
Every that's a big one. That's another diagnosis, though. Right. But also kind of identifying with a diagnosis and having that be like a. crucial kind of identity, a pillar of your identity, and then also like labeling others. You're borderline, you're an INFP, you're, you know, it can go, you're an Enneagram. type five yeah it can go in many different directions like both kind of harsh and just sort of like this is who i am
I think that's especially proliferated in like white cis spaces where, right? Post like 20, it's embarrassing, like 2020 people are like, well, actually I have ADHD and it's really, really hard for me too to exist. And it's like. whoa, okay, how are we comparing identity like this? It feels like there was a big rise of it after 2020. Yes.
Absolutely agree. And I think that also a lot of people who are doing the policing in terms of like, you don't have a space to do this, like there are people who already have like accumulated privilege in all of these ways and are trying to find a place that where they can speak from. a vulnerability almost yeah well I am also experiencing all of these different things and like life is hard life is hard in so many different ways
And there's no way that like you can ever win in some sort of oppression Olympics. But that is a way that people try to access that spot of speaking from vulnerability, I think. Yeah, totally. So our first question is going to be about all of the changing meanings within this vocab. Let's hear from Corey. Whose pronouns are they, them?
How do we combat and correct pop psychology meanings of words that do and are meant to have clinical significance, especially now that losing their meaning has already happened in the broader culture? As someone who has experienced trauma in my life to the point of having complex PTSD, it's getting really old to hear people use the word trauma to mean discomfort or hard thing that happened to me. Wow. Great question.
Ash, do you want to start with this one? Sure. Yeah, I mean, as we were talking about, I think the internet acculturation of these words kind of... does tend to dilute them. And I'm into the anti-stigmatization and the sort of like democratization of the words. And I guess I would ask the listener, like, in what arenas are you being forced to
listen to, I'm going to say trauma dump, which is another kind of like internet-y, meme-y word, but like to have these words like kind of shuffled into your space. Is this at work where you could just like maybe walk away and say, I need to get back to that deadline. Or is it like in a friendship where actually you could hopefully make that friendship more conscious by saying, I don't know, I think owning your feelings about.
What this does for me is it feels like it diminishes my actual trauma. Like, what are you getting at? It sounds like – I mean, I'm a very frank person, so I would say, like, it sounds like you're meaning discomfort. I feel like through, like, the gentle but firm – teachings within friendships and relationships, we can combat some of this like dilution. Do you think that it matters that clinical terms have
migrated in their meaning or expanded in their meaning? I mean, I do think it is problematic because like I work in the field of trauma, though I don't talk about it a lot. I do a lot of like climate trauma and disaster trauma. So people who are afraid of.
Being impacted by the climate change, you know, macro changes or who already have. But I like hesitate to use that word in like a dinner party setting because I feel like then it opens the floodgates of like all of the other meanings of that word, which.
Frankly, it makes me feel like I'm gatekeeping it in a way. And again, based on our last topic, I don't ever want to – compare trauma and be like well actually that's not really trauma especially from my purview which would feel like oh my gosh expertise like shuffling yeah but and like I mean
Well, let's go to boundary because trauma I think is like a really, it's an interesting one I want to come back to, but boundary, how I hear it being used in the wider internet world sounds to me like a rule or regulation.
often right boundaries like this is like if we want to go to the source this is like kleinian this is winnicott this is like self other self object other you know container of of safety that a parent or caregivers teaching you, giving you, and then you're as a baby developmentally and a child, you're learning like the boundary that separates you from another person, right?
That's the like initial, and there's Freudian, Jungian concepts around this too. There's gestalt, like personal or contact barriers. How do we make contact with our environment? And also I am a fan of like, let's say family boundaries, for instance. But the way it's used, it's almost like, I don't know if I'm going to say this right, but like it's almost like a verb instead of a noun in a way. Not quite, but it's like setting boundaries. Yeah, yeah. My boundary is you can't.
do this and it's like okay well we don't really have control of our or ideally we don't control other people's actions the boundary could be I think boundaries are best when they're silent actually huh that's so interesting so like people are actively like voicing a boundary when really like they should be just owning the boundary. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like just making decisions in their lives. Yeah, to enact it. Yeah, yeah. But this, I want Rachel to talk to you. I want this...
starts to get into cutoff language though. I feel like, right? So I found a stat last week that was saying that 20, I don't know if I buy this. I want to like go back to the source material, but 25% of dads in the United States have some estrangement from- least one of their children wow and you know they were look the article was talking about post trump era stuff you know and and the political polarization and then 10 of moms have estrangement from one or more of their children
I will find the source and send it to you because I'm a little bit, like, in disbelief about that number, frankly. But it's still a lot. I mean, even if – It's a lot. And it's – I buy it, though. I actually buy it. Yeah, exactly. You do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do. And, like, I'm not –
you know, this is like, you know, this is not therapy talk for the wider world, but like, I'm not against having boundaries with family. And sometimes estrangement is like what needs to happen. And I super understand that. It's very nuanced. It's very case by case basis. But I feel like it's become so like, I don't have the bandwidth. I need to cut you off. I have a boundary against this.
And then it becomes like a wall instead of like a permeable structure. Like boundaries are movable and they shift based on your bandwidth that doesn't need to be like talked about and talked about to the other person who's receiving the boundary, let's say. Rachel, what does this all make you think about? I think Ash was really on point to say, where are we encountering this? Because I think sometimes in kind of actual human space, person to person.
contact, like this stuff will come up and it's just sort of like there's always going to be some language slippage, right? We don't use words perfectly, precisely. And sometimes it's just an approximation. You're trying to get somewhere and you're like using the shorthand. And like Ash said, if it's like in within a friendship, some sort of intimate relationship where there's like a level of.
trust or understanding, you can sort of be like, what do you actually mean? Right. You know, like the word. So the word doesn't become up. kind of a block, you know, from actually like, what are we actually talking about here? But then I think what can get really annoying is seeing it online, right? Like seeing the slides and seeing the way that these things. um are kind of used as uh
shorthand or as like content amplifiers. And like for that stuff, all I can do is say like, cleanse your timeline. Set a boundary. We're talking about people who use like... Hashtag boundaries like who are like trying to surface themselves in their content and their messaging.
And their brand in part by being a person who like talks about boundaries a lot. Right. And I think that like when it when you're encountering it in that way, it's so frustrating that then when you're encountering it with real people in your real life, it's like.
you can bring the frustration to it but sometimes that person is just trying to like find a way to yeah say something clunky it's clumsy yeah so one thing that I find myself getting super annoyed with all the time and I've written about this is people who say I resonate with that. Yes. Oh my God. And it's, it's very much the younger generation, not exclusively, but I think like almost all of it that I see is amongst people who are say younger than like 33.
And I have been so frustrated with it. And a couple of months ago, I was like, okay, so what is it that actually pisses me off about people using this? Not that it's like grammatically incorrect or whatever. Right. It's that it I think it actually communicates a real shift. And the way that we think about like. our positionality towards something that is resonating right it's like yeah instead of like that thing resonates with me
We say, I resonate with that. Like I have an affinity towards that. Right. So there's a different directionality. So with all of that said, I have tried to start thinking about like. Actually, people are trying to communicate something different. And it's not just that like they're using grammar in a way that annoys me.
But do you think that's part of like the hyper, this is my, one of my main concerns with therapy talk democratized over online. Do you think that's part of hyper individualization? Like when it's like, right? Yeah. Like I, I, I, I, I, I. I see myself.
in that right yeah yeah yeah it's like oh for sure and like that that that would be my more interesting conversation than just like can you believe young people use grammar wrong right right yeah well then we start to sound like like sad millennials 100 percent or or xers yeah okay so i think
Oh, Melody wants us to talk about this because I think this is really important. When people talk about actual diagnoses as like a quirk, when they're like, oh, I'm OCT, like if someone's tidy, which is something that I feel like used to be much, much more popular, was very much like... I don't know, late 90s, early 2000s. Totally. To be like, oh, I'm so OCD. And now I don't think you'd say that. Or bipolar for someone who like has emotions.
I don't know. Like, what's the line there? I also think that sometimes the like soft diagnosis can make someone more susceptible to manipulation. and to manipulating or being no being manipulated like to grifters to charlatans yeah right oh yeah uh-huh because there's some level of insecurity and like what you're looking for is somebody to affirm and say like
Yes, it's true. You do, you know, you are, you have this special thing. There's this thing about you that you're like wondering about is true. Yeah. And like here, I'm going to explain this thing.
that sometimes it seems a little bit like a horoscope where you see yourself in the explanation of what... like a diagnosis is you're like oh do you hate getting up in the morning right like you don't like washing the dishes yeah and then does your partner ignore you 20 of the time yeah you know and i i have mixed feelings about this because i have uh what i will it's not an official diagnosis but it is when you um when really loud sounds or specific grating sounds. Misophonia? Misophonia.
And it's a lot like I've had it my entire life and I've never had an explanation for why I reacted the way that I did to my brother clicking a pen when we were nine. Right. Or my partner when he's just like. fiddling with the top of a pop can um and now i know oh it gets a lot worse during certain points in my cycle and like
But then there were times when I explode and I'm like, can you just stop doing that? Knowing what's going on, I have to think a lot about that doesn't excuse me being a total bitch about someone just having mouth sounds. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not, no, that is not their responsibility. It is my responsibility. I really love the recent Rachel Aviv book. What's the title of it? But anyway, I feel like the kind of subterranean theme of it was like, was.
diagnoses and how when like having a diagnosis can be this real sense of relief and naming and you understand, you're like, oh, this all makes sense. I make sense to myself. But it can also have this like limiting side where then you kind of over identify with the diagnosis and then you sort of like, and I. It will always be thus. Strangers to ourselves, right? Is that the one? Strangers to ourselves, exactly. And can kind of in some ways like inhibit.
You know, it should be this expansive thing that helps you kind of relate to the world in a new way. But it can also be this kind of inhibiting factor, too. I think it's also like part of the problem with all this is like it's very it feels very additive. me so it's like you have this now you can do this and you can time block your way into a new routine and like you know to your point and
that's like a total breeding ground for like coachy therapy people to be like, I have a new product for you. It feels very like diet culture in a way. Take this pill, do this thing, yada, yada. But like... Growth is actually like a reductive process. We shrink and deflate and shed.
ideally as we're growing and as we move to like this is very young Ian but move to like from ego to libido like what brings you pleasure in the world if you are lucky enough to explore that and so I find it to be like additive like we're all this sudden I'm wearing like 20 jackets and have you know like so much gear around how to fix and solve so many systems so many like adhd journals yeah yeah
OK, next question that will, I think, allow us to address some of this. And it's a little bit about weaponizing therapy language, too, which weaponizing is a therapy. I know. But so this comes from Katie and it's. an example of therapy speak in a really public setting. I feel like a good example of weaponizing therapy talk is Ashlyn Harris's recent statements about her ex-wife, Allie Kruger, and their marriage, particularly the line of being very good at disassociating.
before the end of her marriage. This divorce has played out pretty publicly. What are the effects of celebrities specifically using therapy talks so publicly? Okay, first, let's hear a clip from the interview that this question is referencing. I am a very, anyone who knows me, I am so touchy-feeler. You know, the second I come through this door, I'm hugging, I love you, I see you, but like...
You can only give, give, give, give, give, give, give so much until you really have nothing left and you're a shell of a human. I became very, very good at disassociating. And that's what my therapist... knew right away. It was my ability to sit and suffer, my ability to disassociate, and my ability to serve other people before my own wants and needs, which I genuinely think probably kept me in that marriage for
As long as it did. Whoa. Okay, the funny thing that strikes me right away is I'm like, oh, yeah, I've heard about that before. Like, it doesn't sound that weird to me. It's always alarming when people use their therapist as a character witness. It's so true. Like I can see why it's tempting where it's like my therapist thinks that you're a dangerous person for me. You know, it's tempting, isn't it?
But not usually a good idea. Can I ask for context? Did Ali say something publicly first? Not to like tit for tat it, but was there something that happened to contextualize like this like major spill out? Well, so basically Ashlyn was the bad woman in this situation because they broke up and then Ashlyn got with Sophia Bush. And so like, so she's the one who like.
went to another person and so you have to explain like why am I behaving this way she wants to defend her character yeah yeah yeah okay yeah I mean it makes I think it's like I feel like we just have so Much more access to everybody. This is obvious, but, you know, like our celebrities are like sort of niche celebrities, our friends, our acquaintances, and everybody is like. I think on some level, this is sort of like what you were writing about the other day, Anne.
you this this impetus to kind of be presenting yourself and like narrativizing yourself in your life at every moment and like i imagine the like bigger the spotlight um the sort of more you feel the need to do that. Actually, maybe that's not true. I think you get a certain level of famous and like, you don't maybe need to do that. Angelina doesn't have to do that. She's like, I'm not going to get into that. But it's like mid, mid fame. Totally.
You need to have like a bulletproof narrative. You need to sort of, and I do think that this is like. It's all over social media. You sort of want to know where you stand. Who's good? Who's bad? Am I on the right? Like, here's the line between the good and the bad. Am I like, I just want to make sure I'm on the good side. And so I think therapy talk, it has this. authority of virtue behind it like when it's used badly it has the authority of virtue behind it and it is sort of like
Kind of allows us to like, I mean, this is what the opposite of what actual therapy, what it's good does, but like allows us to sort of like split the world into the toxic and the non-toxic. And if you don't, if you don't put out a story, people are going to. put out a story about you I'm sure that you want to own the narrative right exactly like part of the kind of impetus to go out there
I should also bring up the example of Jonah Hill. Do you know about this very messy example? You mean because of Stutz and then what happened after? Well, and like, yeah, like the screenshots of texts where he was like, if you want to wear a bikini, that crap. crosses my boundaries like yes that sort of things so and that was really poorly timed right after he had released that documentary where you know and like
I don't know. I have so many things to say about visible therapy. That's a whole other topic for another time. It's just really interesting to be like, oh, it's so it was ripe for like, oh, you're not really integrating your therapy, are you? But do you think people learn from this? Like, is there a trickle down effect, I guess? From what happened with Jonah Hill? Or no, like just like public examples of people using therapy. Or is it a trickle up effect where therapy or like.
Where celebrities actually start using the language that like normies use on TikTok. I think it's probably that. I can't think of like a specific. example of a celebrity using therapy language in a way that I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, whoa. I mean, maybe I'm the bad audience for this.
I, you know, it's my work, but it's never been like helpful in any way. I don't, yeah, I don't know. It reminds me of like COVID, like when they were singing Imagine and like, it's sort of like, we don't really, to me. Like, we don't really need you in this space. Yeah, maybe you're not the best messenger. The only example that I can think of is there is this famous interview with Jennifer Aniston. I think it was in Vanity Fair. I love her. Post Brad Pitt.
jennifer aniston breakup and and when i believe he was like starting to get together with angelina jolie around this time and Oh, yes. It was after Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt had done the W Magazine photo shoot where they had, like, 50s, like, housewife, like, it's like...
And they said that they weren't together. Right. So like all around Mr. and Mrs. Images seared in my mind. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like incredible peak of gossip moment. And this is also a great example of how huge celebrities like they don't have to write. a caption on like Instagram or like screenshot a notes thing. Like they just do an incredibly high profile.
interview where they say one devastating thing. And in this case, Jennifer Aniston said very pointedly that I think there's a sensitivity chip missing there. I did not remember that quote right and that but that like I mean I'm sure people used words like like some sort of chip, like that sort of thing. But like, I think that that was a sort of a moment where people are like, oh yeah, that's a way to explain a certain type of behavior.
Behavior, another word that's very weaponized, I think. You think so? Yeah. How? Like, I don't like your behavior. Like, you know, in a work environment or something, it's like, you know. That to me feels adjacent to the therapy talk. Yeah. That's really funny. I remember that shoot. I did not remember that quote, that like searing knife term. But it's kind of perfect, too, because it's not it's not kind of deploying a trope. I mean, it's really just it's it's that's why she's so original.
I mean, except for the fact that her hair hasn't changed. Well, it's created a wave of haircuts. One iconic haircut and then she never has to change it ever again. Okay, this one is going to be kind of. an own, I think, on us, but it'll be really interesting. It's about theories about what's behind the rise of therapy speak. This theory comes from Sloan, and Melody's going to read it.
Regarding the rise of therapy speak, do you think this could be a trickle down effect from academia, specifically the liberal arts? I went to a liberal arts university in the 2010s, completed an MFA. In critiques, it always felt like when people didn't know what to say. about someone's work, the first resort was to approach it from a psychological slash Freudian perspective. To me, the rise of therapy speak seems like a natural evolution of that impulse. Okay.
So there's two things that I think are happening here. One is that like a lot of media studies in particular, like if you have any access to like.
literary theory and like Lacan yeah like you learn a pretty bastardized understanding of Freud yeah vis-a-vis these theorists and then like to sound smart you can like apply a critique through that lens so I think that's part of it I think so too I think it actually like You know, Sloan's asking if it trickles down from academia, but I think actually it probably trickles down from the art world, period.
Right. Into like professors who are teaching Lacan and like, you know, the sardine tin and like objectivity and subjectivity from the gaze. And then, right, like, and that I kind of think just what happens in MFA programs. I think what happens is it trickles down. from oprah and dr phil and then you learn in academia like yeah well i think if we're talking about workshops
People aren't ever critiquing each other's work. They're critiquing each other's personality. It's so true. I mean, this is maybe too much of a blanket statement. And then you just like throw some Lacanianisms in there to pretend that you're not just like basically. doing an Oprah. That's so funny.
On somebody. I also think it's because we have a paucity of language to talk about people's art. So I have this memory of my creative writing teacher in college who I just thought she was like the most amazing woman ever to love because she like. wore scarves and would say things like I went when I was at Cambridge when she was talking about going to Harvard right um but she would write all the time on people's pieces like Be more expansive.
but also reductive right so and i understand this now in theory like with writing oftentimes you want to expand and then reduce and expand and reduce but at the time i was like has nothing to say unless she's so she's just saying that right totally but yeah critiques are so that we should there should be a whole psychological study on critiques in general i went to
My, you know, where I come from with this is I went to design school undergrad before I switched to psychology later on and completed that work. And like art crits are so different from design crits too. And like the way in which you get taken down. to Rachel's point, like your personality can get totally attacked or like people can be hyper competitive in these programs. So it can be like a smart off.
but also just like taking someone down through the lens of their work if that person's being an asshole. But then also... Is that connected to the way that therapy speak is used as a sort of like authority off people trying to like claim authority by using therapy speak in some way? Totally.
I think so. Yeah. When you're using therapy speak, you're sort of positioning yourself like outside of the dynamic. You're saying like, I'm sort of standing outside and above this and like naming what's going on. I'm not. I'm not a part of it. Oh, no, no, no. Right. I'm telling you what's going on. Which therein is not employing concepts of the gaze. They're not understanding the objectivity and the subjectivity that Lacombe was talking about. Yes.
That's a very appealing position. Of course. Well, it's distancing, right? And actually, I think the therapy language... talk and like insertion is often distancing. Yeah. Rather than relational, rather than engaging. It's like, well, again, my boundary, my cutoff, my whatever.
Like, I think it's inherently distancing. Yeah, instead of owning, like, whatever feeling it's making you feel and irrationality, right? Because irrationality can feel very... disempowering in all of these different ways right totally messy something that happens all the time um okay last question is about work and i think this one's this is a tough one okay this is from someone who we'll just call s
What are reasonable boundaries to have around TherapySpeak in the workplace? I feel like in the education slash nonprofit sector, TherapySpeak is abound in efforts to support ethical, accountable, trauma-informed work. But then it gets a little awkward when you have an executive director or professional development consultant who isn't necessarily a therapist, but is asking people to access their deep feelings in front of coworkers in order to increase their impact at work.
It feels like this interpretation of DEI work that puts individual effort over systemic change can result in people being asked to bring their personal hardships and trauma to the forefront of their professional identities in order to, quote, better in the work. But like my employer isn't paying for actual therapy. I feel like I am being asked to bleed out for the mission statement without any aftercare and it is impacting my mental health. Oh God.
This person is saying like... okay, these kind of DEI initiatives are part of this larger project where everything in the workplace is actually about making better workers, like people who function better under capitalism. Right. So that like not so that we can be better people necessarily. It's more like productivity based so that you can. Yeah. Right. And not so that you change any structures at the job, but that's so anything bigger or more impactful in that way.
But it's just sort of like you need to look into your soul and see what's there. Yeah. And you as the individual worker. Right. Exactly. Yeah. The DEI part of it is like one whole big messy thing, but just this idea of. the like therapy and work is so alarming to me somebody very close to me works at a place like had to do a whole Brene Brown like vulnerability thing which is so
And I mean, I think Brene Brown, who I do kind of like. She's cool. She put vulnerability on the map and shame on the map. But she's like, she does a lot of like workplace things. And I'm just like, I don't, it doesn't seem to me that the workplace is a. place where you should or often can be vulnerable like it's just you're really ignoring um the inherent power dynamics there when you're like kind of demanding that your employees kind of
open up. I've actually seen, now that you say that, Rachel, I've seen a rise of, you know, and we talk about this within our podcast too, like, There's a cap when you're a therapist and you can only see a certain amount of clients a week for your availability and bandwidth, et cetera, bandwidth. So I understand why people want to like –
mass scale it, make it different, like have different avenues, but it's such a like tricky thing. I've seen this rise of people who have private practices be like, hire me as a, you know, cultural consultant at your workplace or I'll come do therapy. groups at your workplace, like as you know, they just advertise on their site, who knows if they're actually doing it. But I'm like, to what end? Like, what are you doing?
And this question made me so happy not to be in a corporate setting. I'm sorry. It reminds me, there is this incredible comedian on Instagram. I'll link to her in the show notes who does, well, she does American girl stuff, but then. And she also does nonprofit boss. Like she just does like your nonprofit boss when you ask for like your PTO, like how she declines it. And it's like because the power structures, particularly at nonprofit.
are often so ostensibly flat but actually not flat at all the way that they use this sort of like speak to not only guilt you into the fact that like I'm declining your PTO request, but here's all the reasons why. you should feel guilty for even asking right right because of the mission because the mission oriented you need to bleed out the mission yeah right exactly all that sort of thing and i like
It reminds me, too, that oftentimes in these organizations, the real problem is just like the person in leadership, right? Or a person, like a person that is.
completely like making things difficult for everyone else but no one wants to do the work of just firing that person or replacing that person and so instead you have these workshops that cause everyone to go through all this other shit totally and I think there's like a wild difference between direct engagement, anti-harassment, like if something is actually going on in the workplace that is like not okay, addressing that.
hopefully with an HR person present and not just some outside consultant only, but like, you know, asking people to kind of like engender the values of the business and cultural humility from the perspective of like this one consultant to build a culture. or that is diverse and inclusive, which we want all spaces to be, it's just like not going to – you're not going to get there doing that. And then –
And often, you know, when I have very rarely been in spaces, whether it's like a training CEU type of thing, I've done like doctorate coursework where like sometimes we get into the conversations where it's like, oh my God, can you please join an affinity group? Because like...
Miranda, you're taking up 90% of this group discussion because you're just learning anti-racist ideas in here. Meanwhile, all the... people of color in the room are like silent it's just like oftentimes there should be an affinity group requirement or some other way to engage with us it's not just like forced down the throats of people in a workshop and like awkwardly so
Right. And to your point, what is the point of the workshop? Is it to check a box? Is it to make everybody feel better? Is it to... yeah assuage some manager's guilt or to like have the manager like manager who like wants more of you in some weird sinister way which i think a lot of times it is well and especially in non-profits like this like
Getting around the fact that, like, we don't pay you enough and we don't give enough, like, we do not provide benefits so that you can pay for your own therapy. Right. Right. Exactly. And insurance sucks. Yeah. It often doesn't cover it. We're going to get around that by doing this like trauma informed workshop or trying to like institute trauma informed management. Right. Right. Yeah. And shoehorning anti-racist like.
you know, unconscious bias, uncovering work in front of coworkers, which is like, you know, not to be overly fragile about it, but sometimes that's just not appropriate. Like that can be. deep and traumatizing. Here I go. But work that like you don't really want to be witnessed by like your
you know, cubicle mate. I don't know. And then again, what work is really being done? It feels like, you know, to both of your points, the like visible labor that some managers or CEOs require just to like check that box. Yeah. And the idea that like work should be a part of like every single part of your life, but also of your psyche. Yeah. Yeah. And, and also that you could just maybe like, not like your job or not like going to work.
pathological you know like that's not something that needs to sort of be fixed or you're like it's annoying to me to be here or you don't need to be like bffs with everyone like if you yeah you can't fix all relational modes at work when you might just like not like
your co-workers that much and you have other areas that like flex your relational muscles yeah it's a job there's a reason they call it a job you know it feels like the new like remember the we're a family stuff that people like put the kibosh on really quick
yeah and or you know work to identify it this feels like the new like let's work on this together let's do this this feels like the new like no we're gonna you know we're gonna make you stay longer because this took up three hours of your work day on an idle tuesday But like it'll be in the togetherness realm and we'll, you know, fix institutions.
And to your point, sometimes it's just like the CEO needs to like do the work or something. Right. Like, oh, maybe our board shouldn't be all white, right? Yeah, right. The easier work. Okay. So our last question is a special New Year's Day.
edition of Asking Anything. And when I first read it, I thought I didn't have any advice about this. But after this conversation, I think it's actually going to be really interesting. So listeners, if you want to hear it, head on over to culturestudypod.substack.com. and become a paid subscriber. Okay, final question is, what is the therapy speak word that you find yourself using all the time and that you might not know?
And you can say it for each other, too, if you want. I know, right? Do we know this for each other? I don't know. I feel like you're good at it. Ash, like, says it in quotes, like, when she uses it. She always, like, raises her voice like it's in quotes. I mean, I don't want to be too kind to myself, but I feel like I'm pretty good at not using them in therapy speak ways.
But you have some manifest in you. Oh, I totally have some manifest in me. You have some manifest in me. Yeah, what do we call that? I think you would maybe use, you would describe it in a different way. Yeah, I'd probably like appropriate or misappropriate like... buddhist culture by accident not knowing you know like visualization techniques i probably do more of that toxically haha than i do like i don't i don't tend to overuse the word trauma or gaslight or narcissist because
Well, for different reasons. I know why that would be dangerous to overuse. Maybe boundary is the only one I probably use. Yeah. I'm sure you know more than me. I also feel like because of your work, you're careful. too, to like misuse. I'm always diagnosing everybody. I was usually not saying it out loud. That's your toxic trait. Rachel, that's why I need a boundary around time with you. Because you're always diagnosing me. Melody, what one do you use all the time? I'm trying to think.
I feel like... Oh, you know what mine is? Is projection. That's a good one. That's a really good one. But it's always used correctly. Yes, exactly. I believe you. The bad one that I use is, and I got it from my partner's describing his therapist's language, is recruiting. Say it in a say it in context. So you're recruiting that behavior or you're recruiting that feedback. Right. Yeah. Kind of in a leading way. Yeah. Or like this is what you have been.
You have internalized this understanding of how a behavior should be rewarded, right? So you're recruiting other people to behave in this way. Mm-hmm. Or like, yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. Recruiting. Well. This has been fantastic. Now I'm going to be very self-conscious as I go about my day. Thank you so much for joining me for the first episode of Culture Study Pod in 2025. That's exciting.
Where can people find both of you, like more of you individually and more of Bad Therapist? We are on, Bad Therapist is on Instagram. And of course, you can find us wherever you get your finest podcasts. And I write for The New Yorker. All my stuff's up there. And our Instagram is badtherapist, at badtherapistpod. At Bed Therapist Pod. At Bed Therapist. At. Yeah, we have to say that. Otherwise, it doesn't count. Thank you so much. This has been great. Thank you. Thanks.
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