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now on with the show. I think for a lot of people when she first appeared on the Grammy's Red Carpet, obviously with with Midnight's being the thing that she was supposed to be, you know, she was nominated for and that was going to be honored for that evening. And all of these clues that we can now see as as red herrings of reputation Taylor's version kind of looming over her. And lots of people anticipating or thinking that we would be getting an announcement about that
for her to have appeared that night in this, you know, bedsheet tangled up white gown. A lot of people were like doing a double take of like, well I guess I can see how that works her reputation. You know trying to like shoehorn it in to reputation. Correct. Yeah, trying to shoehorn it into, you know, our expectations of what we thought would happen in the evening. But if, you know, Taylor Swift is going to do one thing and one thing well is subvert expectations.
This is the Culture Study podcast and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. My name is Sarah Sheppell. I am a journalist and also a veteran's 50-style reporter and I have a fashion account dedicated to Taylor Swift's style. It's an Instagram account, Taylor Swift's style and also blog, Taylor Swift's style.com. And as a result, I have had the wonderful opportunity to write a book all about it. Amazing. I feel like a good place for us to start. And I have to say that a lot of these ideas
about good places to start come from our resident, Swiftie. I mean, I love Taylor Swift but like Melody loves Taylor Swift and she has, she really comes to this with so much knowledge that I appreciate really, so deeply. But so Melody's idea was like, what if we start by looking at Taylor's Grammy look and thinking about how you interpreted it at the time and maybe how you interpreted it now? Yeah, that look is really interesting because Taylor has definitely used red
carpets in the past to kind of serve as a launch board for the aesthetic of a new era. And so, of course, as we now know, that look was meant to tee up tortured poets and it's very interesting to look back on that look now, especially now that we have this album and obviously also the corresponding album visuals, the Fortnite music video and how that really kind of teed us up very nicely for.
There's so many kind of interpretations of this of this look whether you want to look into the tangled bed sheets kind of intimacy because this album I would say is definitely the lyricism is like more sensual and more overtly sexual than you know we've seen from her in the past. So there's a certain intimacy vulnerability feeling there. One of the coolest things about observing her style is the intention that comes with it but also the different ways that you can read it.
I'm also looking at her look from the Grammys right now and it's glamour right in terms of like old Hollywood glamour both with the gloves that go up like to her mid bicep, the cut in the dress that goes all the way up her thigh which is a very like old Hollywood glam sort of style. And even the hair like there's kind of a Veronica like wave going on like with her side sweep. She's done that in the past like the old Hollywood glam wave and she's done it she's done it more effectively.
This one feels way messier which I think is also kind of a neat tie into how intrinsically messy this album is at like beautifully beautifully messy and also the through line of she's been she's been wearing a single kind of braid in her hair all throughout last summer when she was you know entering an exiting electric lady studios in New York where she was presumably recording a lot of this album. She had a tiny little braid throughout her hair and that was that was
present at the Grammys too which I thought was was very interesting. And also obviously the kind of clear bow stacked necklaces too. Yeah. Say more about that about why like why does that evoke clear bow because I have my thoughts about why it bow what do you think? I mean I don't have like as deep a knowledge of clear bow as so I've only seen you know the the portraiture of her with like the kind of yeah stacked necklaces. I really liked how how that was also evoked in the Fortnite
music video and how it doubly sort of serves as inner she uses a watch face. Yeah. In the choker and I personally really liked how that kind of puts a stop on the midnight's era and then usher is in and connects us as like a through line into into this next next era. I also think that there was like an Emily Dickinson poem or something about stopping time. Yeah. Which I you know there's tortured poets obviously all over this album and I thought that that was like sort of an interesting
possible interpolation too. Yeah. Yeah. When I look at this too I think you're totally right about the like the style of the the stack necklaces but also just like you know this 1920s silent film like clear bow was only pictured in black and white films and like there is some I think some slippage going on with all these different eras which is fascinating because Taylor Swift herself is is known for eras like there's a evocation of 1830s right which she's talked about is like if you
take away the racism and all the other bad stuff like it's a it's a cool time. Yeah. Which I would actually fight about and then this 1920s and then also like just like an overall romantic classical but also messy right so she's there's just like a lot of different collage I think going on with the look which also to me that describes the album in some ways too some people are like
every song sounds the same to me and that doesn't that I don't I don't feel like that. It's really interesting to hear that kind of critique and I got it like that's totally fine if you know something that you don't enjoy is when you're listening to an album as a body of work is like
all the things kind of smush into one kind of congealed thing and you can't really discern differences between everything and that's that's not really for you that's totally cool but in particular with Taylor that's a really interesting criticism because you know one of the because
one of the main points of critique with red was how frenetic the album was and how it felt really disjointed and it felt really off-putting to you know go from a song like Trutorus which is you know this really beautiful lovely kind of sweeping building ballad into I knew you were trouble which is
you know a dubstep downbeat and then you and then you transition from I knew you're trouble to all too well which you know beautiful sweeping magnum opus of a breakup song and a lot of people felt like oh that was really disjointed and really kind of weird and so her you know direct response
was I'll create you know the most polished pop album that you've ever heard and call it 1989 and it'll go on to become this watershed moment for me in my musical evolution so for people to you know say like tortured poets particularly feels too same same is like really fascinating for me
I don't feel that I don't feel that way but like I I just think like within you know her the growth of her discography that that's such a fascinating kind of critique like we've come full circle um yeah yeah totally yeah so let's take a step back because I want to talk more about your book
and just about the idea of Taylor Swift communicating via fashion yeah she's always communicating via her her music but she's also always communicating via fashion so from a broad perspective how does she use fashion choices beyond just like clothing itself when you look at female popsters you know
I think a lot of them feel the pressure of reinvention as you know brought to us by Madonna yeah and I mean Madonna definitely pioneered the errorification of her work but I think in terms of modern day nobody is like quite hitting it as successfully and as like kind of broadly as Taylor
is I mean there's a three-hour stadium tour dedicated to you know the way that she's very creatively succinctly clearly delineated her entire career and you know I just think as this generation's you know most prolific songwriter I just think we're we're really familiar
with like the confessional emotional songs about her life but I just always thought that her style is half of that story and you know her music is the sonic representation of her story and then the other half is the visual half that I conifies every era and you know that makes moments memorable
and I think the beauty of her music is that I can hear a song of hers and remember exactly where I was when I first heard it I can remember what I was wearing I can remember the weather of the day I can remember like a fight that I had with like a friend or something like there are just so many
and I think that that's the beauty of music is the transportive quality to it and I think that more than any like her discography and her music contains that power but then the other half of it for her is you know distilling those moments not just like for your life but also like
her life so that you can pull back through her career and say like oh I remember the first time she wore Ray bands and like what that represented for that era you know like I remember I can vividly remember the first time that she wore a crop top in New York City and that was the launch of like the 1989 era fashion and so it's you know doubling down on creating this like language not just of like music but also that visual component and blending the two into this memory cycle.
Yeah and I think she also speaks loudly you know and this is semiotics the study of signs it's like thinking about how something like a fashion choice can speak about how she's conceiving of herself in relationship to notions of femininity notions of romance notions of the past and storytelling
and I think about like she is not photographed or she doesn't want to be photographed this is something that I think sometimes people miss is that anytime that we are seeing a photograph of her it's because she wants to be seen she has a very very good security team and knows how to
be private when she wants to be private so if you see her on the street if you see a picture that looks casual and I don't think she actually like she's not like calling the paparazzi it's more that like when she steps out in public spaces she knows she will be photographed so she is also
careful to be styled right like to speak when she leaves her wherever she is because she knows it will speak for her in some capacity and so I think about like the way her hair always is right or like she wears a lot of tights goes through periods where she wears a lot of tates or like right now
just like so much street style or what I think of a street style because I'm an old person so anything that like I could never pull that off that to me like signifies as street sounds to me yeah but yeah so like what's something that you feel like when she wears it speaks really loudly to
you or like even a way that she styles her hair or something like that yeah for sure um I mean there's obviously there's so many examples throughout her career where you know I think not only is it speaking to that memory piece and you know creating this this visual moment in which to
anchor herself so that you can look back on and reflect it but you know also what is she trying to silently communicate before the music can speak for her um ah and yeah yeah yeah and I think you know that that's a huge thing throughout her whole career
I'll like pull back like all the way to the beginning for example like her and I talk about this at length like in the book throughout you know capturing all of her musical evolution her fashion evolution and everything that she's trying to you know say about herself through these
visual components but going back all the way to you know debut when she's this you know teenage country star at that time I mean her only her closest contemporary would have been like lian rhymes in in that respect of yeah somebody really young intercepting in a primarily predominantly older male
space but even lian rhymes like the whole blue was popular and like was notable because lian rhymes had a voice that did not sound like it belonged to a teenage girl yeah and that's what made it notable Taylor comes along and creates an entire world and a defiant one where she is like
I am a teenage girl I am writing from a teenage girl's perspective this is important and nobody in this genre is talking about it and taking it seriously and creating space for a whole demographic of people who could possibly be enjoying this genre so I'm going to do it and you know she does that
beautifully like on the album itself you know documenting you know high school crushes and saying goodbye to your college boyfriend like when you're still stuck in high school and all of these you know things about that experience and what that means for you know young girls and she does it
wearing a sundress and cowboy boots and that is like an elevator pitchfon outfit that says I'm a young girl and I sing country music and that and and then to kind of top it all off she would often use guitars by this brand called Taylor guitar so if you see it at a photograph
of Taylor from that time period you're seeing her curly blonde hair guitar that says Taylor on the neck cute little sundress cowboy boots you can immediately say that girl's name is Taylor she sings country music she's a young she's a young female and like that without saying a word
without even having heard her music and that is like visual mathematics you know creating like easily identifiable and very easily replicable formula for her fashion because that's not just something that she can replicate time and time again as like a uniform dress plus cowboy boots
that's also something that her fans can easily replicate I can go into any mall right find a cute little dress find cowboy boots and and you immediately know who I am trying to replicate whose style I am referencing and you don't need to you know have the exact
designer that she is wearing but you're able to immediately make that you know connection of of of reference and that is that's her magic so one of the questions that we got a lot of that I just instead of doing a single question about it Taylor appears somewhere and you get the image
and you're able to source where her outfit or sunglasses or her banana clip like you're able to source it so quickly so how do you do it yeah I mean I've been doing this since 2011 so I have a little bit of practice yeah yeah I have a very highly specific catered skill set yes it can absolutely
vary depending on the item in question and you know the context that is displayed in and also helpfully like the quality of imagery is is always like a really nice thing to in order to be able to do so tonight I miss yeah some things are definitely made easy depending on how discerning they
are like for instance you know a Gucci Diamante bag is pretty easy to spot other times it can be obvious from just the fabric involved or the cut of something one of the things about Taylor's fashion that I love and that I think a lot of fans love is how relatable and accessible her style is
and you know she definitely has brands that she she favors and that she goes to time and time again and for me in my eye there are certainly silhouettes fabrics patterns cuts and they just have a distinctive style which is exactly what you want like as a brand to be able to have somebody say
you know see an item and and be able to recognize it I mean we can't all be Christian Louis Tonin like there's a red soul and you just immediately know so there are certain things that are you know there are certain things that are a little bit more settled in that but that's that's the goal I
think of every fashion designer is to find an avenue and for people to be able to recognize and see your art and your work and and attach it to you so some items it can be like a matter of minutes sometimes it's hours or days sometimes it's even years like there's there was a navy
fair-eiled sweater that she wore like many moons ago and it took me three years to find it it's still like it's still haunts me like how long it took to find it but um yeah so it can definitely it can depend well it's like a language that you're fluent in right like you're fluent in
the language of contemporary design so when you see a cut or style like you can like look at a a couple different collections or that sort of thing so today we're talking about the new album the tortured poets department and the easiest way that we could do this is like this song is about this person and like why does she keep collaborating with Jack and Tana and like everything is about that right now and I think that like there people can go we'll put some links to some stuff if people
want to go deeper in those directions I think that because we're so lucky to have you on the show we want to think more about the way that she's using lyrics fashion though release schedule all of these things to communicate things differently about her image and she's doing it I think very skillfully right like there's there's a reason she is arguably I mean her and Beyonce like I think periodically change slots right like it's like they hand the crown back and forth from one another
it's beautiful the most important pop stars of our of our generation and of our era but they both I think are emblematic of our era in different ways and also emblematic of the music industry and different practices within the music industry so that's what we're gonna kind of focus on for
this episode when did you start to see a shift in Taylor's wardrobe as she was hinting this new era was it before the Grammy's appearance yeah I think when over the course of the summer when we received the most amount of street candidates of her it was interesting to note a lot of
similarities and past polls from previous iterations of Taylor's style and I think that that's fun and I think that that's one thing that's really interesting is that you know I often get people asking well like what's the true Taylor style you know if she's constantly dressing up as different
eras like how do you know what her actual taste is if it's all just pseudo-costuming for her next project and what I think is interesting is that I feel like Taylor's style there are certain throughlines in her fashion that I think are present regardless of era and that's kind of what I
was picking up on last summer you know Taylor is somebody who she loves you know cute pleated mini skirt and she always has girl loves her clunky little chunky loafers and and like healed oxfords and she always has but there was certain like there were certain things it's
it's really funny doing easter eggs I feel like I'm most excel in being able to you know do the look back and the retrospective like picking up on the things in the past and not so much in the active present moment of of noticing things as they happen and that's by design that's that's what
she's doing on purpose so it's interesting looking back you know seeing seeing certain things that you know kind of stack out the jewelry stacking was wildly different for her which is also interesting given the clear bow and like the the jewelry stack stacking on the on the Grammys red
carpet that was very interesting and like out of pocket for her typically the boostier style corsity sorts of tops was was also kind of a thinker for for a moment there those things all kind of came together and then also new brands kind of kept popping up her reaching for the row more
and more was was interesting and notable for me you know this introduction of more quiet luxury if we want to you know if that term is still cool to use I'm like it's just luxury it's not quiet luxury luxury sends logo if they yeah you know yeah so those kinds of things were were also interesting
from for me to note and you know she obviously went on to wear the row in the portrait poets album photo shoot and then she also wore the row in the Fortnite music video so certain brands also representing as kind of a key indicator of the of the era that we're in okay so let's get into
the listener questions this first one is from Lauren is Taylor perpetually two years late to an aesthetic like with their academia is the whole point of Taylor to be intentionally cringe or she just so millennially to be that she can't help it okay so as you pointed out earlier she has
liked the loafers and that style for like a while yeah right like this is not she's not like oh dark academia let's do it so I think she to me it looks like what her style is for tortured poets is kind of like an amalgamation of like some of the other previous styles like the
the the the like academia style and then make it a little darker I don't know what are your thoughts here I mean in many ways yes I think there's a cohort of fans and this is my theory who she's acquired in the last few years who maybe have a different idea or concept of Taylor Swift human being
um either based on the works that they've exposed themselves to or maybe not being as embedded in the in the lore and the journey but as somebody who has lovingly and frankly I just think we could all stand to embrace and feel more comfortable with our inner cringe um and if we want to
uphold that Taylor Swift as an avatar of somebody who embraces and is a champion of cringe I think that that is beautiful and wonderful um I also think that Taylor selectively participates in trends when she wants to and she'll often you know bend them to the extent of which she wants to take part
I would also argue that the 70s aesthetic for midnight was perfectly timed to that particular trends resurgence so I think sometimes she nails it and I'll lastly say that I think that there's also an entire business economy in Taylor's fashion choices and those in themselves result in trends
on their own that are you know recognizable easily traceable to her in its origin and I think much in the same way that you know the current princess of whales sets the world on fire like she doesn't set the world on fire with her style um but when but when she wears something
people will come and the people will sell it out within hours like if not you know minutes I've heard from so many you know independent small designers who Taylor wears um which I think is also a huge part of her intentional dressing um to you know opt for smaller designers often women
owned designers that when Taylor wears their outfits they they sell out within like 15 minutes and that is power in its own so embrace cringe yeah I just like whenever I see Taylor dancing I'm like this this girl's awkward and that's okay and that's you know that's awesome like we
know your strengths yeah know your limit play within it um yeah but also like it's okay like she likes to dance yes it doesn't mean so it doesn't she should be able to like dance there like when she's the the only one standing up at the award show like throwing her hands in the
air I just I bless her um but yes I think she is kind of cringe and like I think that you know when people talk about oh like she just she's always talking about a heartbreak like get over it like how old are you blah blah blah I'm like this it's good to tell like it's good to normalize
being in your 30s and like having emotions right yes like there's nothing wrong with having emotions in your 30s I don't think we I think the whole point of life is that we in fact do not stop having emotions ever right even though we pretend I think that like somehow strong emotions
should be I don't know like quarantined to like your teen years and then maybe in your 20s you can have some emotions but then you have to start growing up yeah and like just working all the time and she manages to like funnel the emotions into the work and that's another conversation about
how much she likes to work which she does yeah and also and then also in her fashion you know like I've seen you know critique of you know like why why hasn't her style you know matured relative to her age and it's like you know certain items of clothing shouldn't be off limits to you
because you hit a certain age yeah okay so next question is kind of a like expansion of this this first question okay talking about all of our ideas and together so this one's from Kira first of all love this crossover event I would love to hear more from Sarah about the concept
she's touched on in the past about how Taylor Swift could be your high fashion icon but she doesn't want to be and how this idea has remained pretty constant throughout her career as she's grown up in the public eye and particularly how it relates to the curation of her image and her career okay
so can you expand on this idea a little bit about how she could be much more high fashion if she wanted to but she doesn't I mean I think the common query is you know why is Taylor Swift you know woman of infinite resources still dressing intentionally perhaps like below stature
hmm like why isn't she out here like in street style you know wearing a freshly ripped runway outfit why is she wearing something from free people what's the goal or the intent behind that and you know and also like why with all of her power influence and capabilities is she not harnessing fashion
in a way that certain people in fashion circles would like to see her do so in comparison to name your it girl of the moment who's you know abunk art fashion that you currently admire and I'd say I think that Taylor does do a great job of harnessing fashion for her own means in the
ways that are you know meaningful to her on the sphere and level that makes sense within her contained universe of aesthetics I think she's been really effective at you know orchestrating and commanding you know this three-hour show that neatly time travels through all of these
distinct versions of herself that she's been you know over the last 20 years of her career which I guess like the long-winded way of saying is this this which I think you know culture study appreciates is the barometer for what shakes the earth and Taylor's world aesthetically is
just it's simply different than other celebrities this the scale is like inverted almost to the point where the more mundane the change the bigger the reaction at like her hair like I'll just as one example of her image Taylor making her hair straight in 2012 and getting bangs was like this
record scratch capital B capital D big deal like that was a big deal and then like shedding the ringlets that she became known for and like was very recognized for and also I think was like one of the earliest things that you know fans sought to imitate again because it's a very easy thing like
to you know just I for instance my mother put you know those like quarter inch foam rollers in my head and I laid down and had them pressed into my scalp overnight in you know a valiant ever to feel more like her so subsequently then also cutting her hair into a bob also huge gigantic crazy deal
and like when I say this out loud it sounds so pedestrian because you have like quote unquote it girls dying their hair trying on new trends morphing before our eyes every day in order to be interesting and I just I highlight this style journey in my book but you can reach
back all the way to you know Taylor's earliest days in her career where she built you know that outfit formula of you know young female country singer and she did it through her style and I think what myself and a lot of fans appreciate is that while Taylor likes to and then maybe also sort of
resents this requisite for reinvention is that her street style specifically does tend to lean closer towards the everyday and the conventional yeah then I think people perhaps feel that she should be dressing as a celebrity which is also so strange because if she was out here flaunting
like all these high end designer like things it would it would also feel like oh she's so out of touch oh totally yeah well and that gets into the like can she do anything right conversation for sure uh which I've written about on culture study but I think that sometimes we forget that like
celebrities have preferences yeah you know what I mean we're like all celebrities should like the same things about being a celebrity yeah and so I think someone like Rihanna loves fucking around with fashion loves it it gives her so much pleasure whereas I think my interpretation of how
Taylor approaches fashion is similar to how she approaches her lyrics and just generally she thinks of it as a game like where she can be clever the thing that gives her pleasure is more of that like planning do you know what I mean and do I'm like I'm gonna like bust some people's eyeballs
or like change the idea of what flattering might be all of those different things like that's not her game I think her will her career is just inherently built on making authenticity marketable yeah I described it as like she's friend shaped and she wants to be seen that way and yeah maybe you know in light of her wanting people to be like afraid of her her torture poets track 10 yeah then maybe in question so but like when people say she's intentionally dressing down to see more appealing I say
like yes that's true but just like how she kind of reclaimed this term you know calculating used to be this like really ugly word yeah and I don't know why her wanting to seem accessible in her fashion it just seems like the latest like Pokemon evolution of that criticism of that word and
just why I just don't think that she needs to change something that's not only you know profitably parasocial but also something that you know maintain something that is true for you and I think you know the panceless trend creates talk and intrigue but you know but Taylor Swift
creates talk by breathing so like why wouldn't you just look cute when you're doing it and like a recognizable version of yourself that fans are like yes that's Taylor I recognize her right so like you know I think like I put her to in this long lineage of quasi girls next door right like yeah no
one's like why is Reese Witherspoon not wearing more high fashion it's because it's not her image it's not who like that is not fit with how she has constructed her image to like where things like that yeah and so I don't think that Taylor Swift has a desire to be wearing high fashion and she's
like oh well I can't because like it won't fit with my girl next door image like she does actually I think push some of those boundaries in terms of like she's not always dressing preppy she's not always doing dark academia she's doing all sorts of different interesting things to my mind as you know
like someone who is not super plugged into high fashion but I can see how someone might think like oh she could be so much more experimental but that's not who she is yeah and I mean sure like a you know a fashion editorial moment for the New York streets would be super fun to see her experiment
with and play with but like that's where that's that is like that's where those opportunities where you get a play with that that's where she gets to play with that and I just think that she feels more comfortable wearing what she wants to wear and that fans find it more fun and interesting
when it's like uh yes I too with like that top I could wear that right so let's talk a little bit about the actual album there are 31 songs I admit that I have mostly dedicated myself to the the boundaries of the traditional album this single album before it became double album
and how they contribute to the overall Taylor mythology so let's hear from Leslie about this I read the New York Times review of the album that had the headline the tortured poets department needed an editor and that's a critique that I feel about a lot of media these days and I like this album
digital media seems to incentivize quick production and gives us no boundaries albums and songs can be any length books can be produced extremely quickly etc it brings to mind the creativity advice that boundaries and limits actually feed creativity and don't limit it in the case of this album I
think Taylor Swift's huge fan base enables her to create whatever she wants and still succeed and that could be a blessing and it could be a curse but what do y'all think all right as someone who writes a newsletter that publishes twice a week I have thoughts on this uh the answer that I have
is someone about Taylor and somewhat not about Taylor because I think that the question asker is correct that the way that the current industry operates and this includes newsletters it includes podcasts like unless you are producing you are not making an income and so because we
do not have apparatus that support people even when they are not releasing product it has created this compulsion that like you have to be producing all the time and I think that it's true like I would write better stuff if I wrote only twice a month that sort of thing but it wouldn't create
the same sort of engagement with me engagement with the community all that sort of thing and I think that like sometimes people who are making that argument about like less can be so much more I absolutely agree but the the way that the market operates does not support that and so in some ways
what's happening with the sheer amount of product that Taylor is releasing is an extension of that logic here's how I would have done it I think the album itself is really interesting I think like what I have been listening to as the album it used to be that you would have all of these
other songs that didn't make the album and then you would release them like several years later as like B-sides and outtakes like they would be secondary content that informed the primary content but still like understood as secondary like stuff that did not make the cut and I think what
Taylor is somewhat doing and maybe this is part of the like she needs an editor critique is she's making everything primary content yeah what's your take on especially as someone who is a content creator yeah I mean I do think that restraint is a skill set um yeah that is and
that's what I don't have uh so like I admire I admire people who are you know pin size and who are capable of getting all of their feelings across and you know a tweet or less and I that's admirable and that's a skill set but I would just say that like and so yes having the space to produce
less and have that be more meaningful as its own standalone is a blessing and I think Taylor has that runway in truth like she is Taylor so she has that runway should she should she have wanted to take it she has that I but I think 100 but I think right now Taylor feels comfortable
being able to take advantage of the momentum that she has to make art that will undoubtedly be successful but doesn't need to be made with a checklist in mind and we saw that with like folklore and we saw that with evermore and strangely I think being boundaryless has seen her in this
crazily hyper drive of creativity like bear in mind that like since switching labels following the fallout from her masters with big machine she has produced one and a half times her life's work from big machine in half the amount of time which is insane um that's crazy crazy statistic um yeah
but like I she once famously said during lover that lover would be her last chance to grasp at a truly commercially successful album and that was in 2019 and whether because she thought you know or feared public opinion would no longer permit her to be successful or you know the nothing
new clarebo anxiety of being replaced by someone younger and more interesting as you know pop tends to favor the young wizarding its ugly head but you know of course we're now on the other side of lover and she's you know created multiple albums on the back of artistic creativity without it to
do list and I think it must feel so incredible for her to be able to make art without boundaries and trust that at least like a huge subset of her fans will be seated for this journey and I think that the point on poets about meeting an editor is like that very well maybe true but I think the
point is is that she did not want an editor and this album is you know bloated by artistic choice and not artistic error that is such a great way of framing it that like she is choosing to be excessive here like she wants it to be too much yes in terms of emotion songs too much like
yes absolutely I just you know and that's she's shutting the door though she said this multiple times like I needed to get it out yes like I needed to get all of these emotions out and now I want to shut the door on not yeah period in my life for sure and I think you know she needed to
get this album out with as many eyes as are on her as possible so that you know the runway for TS 12 you know whenever she decides to put it out you know she's able to breathe a little clearer you know with the elephant in the you know studio with her of like you know this monumental break up
that everybody wants to know all about and you know that's kind of past her but I just think we have 1989 like the recent reworked 1989 like is like very close in our living mirror and I would call 1989 standard her tightest like most pattern leather polished piece of pop
and like Taylor has demonstrated she knows how to write a concise and snappy pop song so she's she's fully capable we know that she is capable of putting you know an entire world in you know a single line and she's exhibited that like many times over so this album you know effectively this is an album capturing a woman's descent into madness and I'm just why should an album like that be concise right well and this is it's also one of those things that I think is hard to understand
in the moment of release and maybe becomes more legible in the context of her discography looking back I think about how people talk about like when Bob Dylan went Christian and like have this whole Christian period in the 1980s right like you're like huh that happened like as an artist you go
through different periods different styles different modes of release like all of these different things and so I think like I understand why that is the conversation that people are having in this moment but I think that the conversation will change as we get further away from this moment
the other like the only thing I will say is that I often too feel the need like I just need to write this I need to write all of this right and then sometimes what I really need to do was to write the paragraph and then delete it and I needed to write it for me and the piece became better
for me like and a lot of writers I know do this they keep it in like a separate Google Docs they're like oh that was such a good oh such a good paragraph I just can't get rid of it right so they keep the baby just to keep it around just in case but the the end piece is better because they edit
it and so like yes would this have been a tighter more coherent project if she cut the number of songs in half arguably if she doing something different by keeping it long is she speaking differently by keeping it long the way that she has absolutely yes yeah for sure she is simply proven herself as
an artist that she has that in her in her toolkit and for her to intentionally not wield that here says something and in the moment perhaps the criticisms are completely valid but when you you know do the birds eye lens looking at you know when artists discography over the course of many decades
I think it'll be a really I think that this will be a really interesting time period and you know reputation didn't get her flowers until you know years out totally and that's fine like criticism in the moment and then allowing you know the art to steep over over a period of time and I think
that that's also like kind of the intent with this too is it's kind of like a time release album I mean it's 31 songs like there's no way for you to like to you know absorb everything that quickly so I think you know this is a slow time release medicinal album that will take a long long time
for us to kind of all wrap our brains around and come down from and that's again medicinal album kind of like that all right all right let's hear the last question and it's about like the vibe of the album versus the tailor that maybe is out there living her own life right now this
question comes from Kayla might the tortured poets department represent a slide downwards from the popularity Taylor Swift reached I have a feeling the record isn't going to be a fan favorite I found myself disappointed on first listen which is fine you can't win them all I can't help
but think about how her star image may be impacting how I'm receiving it she's oversaturated even to a huge fan like myself she's a newly minted billionaire who seemingly constantly winning yet this album suggests her current era is sad I know it's art but it doesn't seem to reflect
what I'm seeing in her public image right now okay I love this question because we can pair it with the release on YouTube shorts which is like this thing on YouTube that is trying to compete with TikTok and clearly paid tailors with some money to release a little short video on YouTube shorts
of all of these snippets of her life over the last it looks like the last six months right and to me it is such forceful counter programming of the vibes of intentional torture poets it's like 100 percent yes 100 percent it's like I'm having a great time actually yeah and I mean I um I
talked about this on my Instagram too how it harkens back it it does a few jobs one it harkens back to you know her my space days where you know in the in the early early days of her career what made her standout was you know her presence online um and you know cultivating that fan connection very
early on and she you know had this my space page and she would upload these like supercuts of like vlogs from the road uh with little with little like home home clips and one to me it harkens back to that time which is nice for like an OG fan to to recognize and two it also like serves as this
really nice reminder to people of again her saying you know this chapter in my life is over I closed the door on this time period I needed to make this album because this is what I was living in and now my life looks much different I think it's an incredibly gutsy move to release an album that
doesn't seem particularly manufactured for widespread appeal or praise like and we've seen you know poets to me is it's a very dense album and I think for people who are invested in her cinematic universe we want to understand and we are up to the job of pouring over the lore untangling all the
flowery language going through all the metaphors that are on display and I just tailor so just a chronic overachiever people please are and I'm like raising my hand as somebody who is like part of that group so I just don't think you can ever fully count her out of like wanting to be liked
but I think the evolution of her artistry and display here is that she did not put out this album necessarily to be liked and I think it's particularly frightening to do when the opportunity to make something palatable to this newly found audience who's you know bought into your corner
of pop culture and are hanging on every word you say it would be easier to like gently usher them in like to this like second wave of fandom that you've gotten but I just think she's you know created this art that she needed you know to make it a hurry with all of this attention that she had on her
to make you know more space and create more atmosphere for oxygen for her next project and I think you know I think it's understandably very grating to hear complaints from people who like for someone who like seemingly has it all and has been very publicly writing a professional high
um that's you know been stunningly maintained to the point of you know being a masterclass in narrative containment but unfortunately and I think what this album proves is that you can't buy your way out of depression yeah no this is like I love how people are like she has nothing
to be sad about I'm like people successful people are sad all the time like that's like very common thing amongst successful people Mark because they're working all the time but also because they have heartbreak like everyone else in the world but I think that
okay here's one thing that I've been thinking about like a lot of people in their 30s you reach a point and I think this is particularly true from people who have succeeded according to societies understanding of what success should look like right like fit themselves into the parameters
you have find a point where you look around and you think like okay I did what everyone else said I should do and I did it really well but do I have any sense of what I actually like do I have any sense of who I actually am outside of other people's expectations for me
and I think and this actually contributes to some of like the feeling of authenticity and relatability is that she is going through that right now she's like I'm figuring out what I actually like who I am yeah and what that looks like and this sort of catharsis is necessary for it
but then also you know we can apply this to the style we can apply this to I think the way you she's talked about this publicly so I don't feel creepy talking about it but like she really grappled with her body image for a long time and feeling really bad about like putting
things into her body because she wanted to look like the models that were exemplars of femininity to her and saying no I need to eat for power I need to eat for stamina I need to eat like and feel comfortable in this body and in a lot of ways it feels like she is arriving at that point
in her music too or even just in her image she who who who do I feel comfortable with what is my version of this love story yeah I mean I think an understandable if you haven't gotten that far because it's like wedged deep deep down like in the 31 song track list but I think that's what makes
the prophecy so tragic is you know she talks about in that song like I don't want money I just want somebody who wants my company yeah she emotionally she went through one of the most significant personal people in her life she had to deal with the fallout of it in real time with you know tens of
thousands millions of people either in stadiums watching her every move on like big stadium screens like trying to interpret you know whatever from the the glassiness of her eyes during a particular song or you know like you know like she was she was dealing with something really hard and I just
think having the prophecy on this album is really really you know telling and so tragic and it's just like having billions of dollars doesn't give you immunity from you know the walking red flags and leather jackets and cigarettes in your life like you know for like from like from like
have it like these like British men like saying you know promising you the world and like it doesn't shield you having money doesn't shield you from some British dude stomping all over your heart when you're already at your worst no I think I think there's this weird assumption that like
oh she's Taylor Swift every guy would just want to be with her all the time and it's very clear that like sometimes romantic partners have weird stuff of like self sabotage or like resentment and all sorts of things like while you're listening to this you have to forget that she is a billionaire because like it doesn't matter you can still get screwed over in your relationship if you have a
lot of money and you're beautiful right like that doesn't make you immune. In fact like are you that it makes your mistakes and your quote unquote failures magnified that much more because you know you're trying to be a human and you're grading against all of these expectations that and people
that tell you you're actually not human because you have XYZ on your resume and all you want and I think all that she wants in this work especially is for people to recognize the human of it all and I don't think she wants sympathy per se right because I think sometimes the sadness in
these songs in particular I have seen it interpret it as like oh she wants us to feel sorry for her and I don't think that's what she wants right I think she wants to express a complexity of emotion that is relatable to a lot of people like listening to these songs really took me back to a lot of
fucked up really so many so so many like that is useful and it is useful it is a useful tool for me to revisit them and to be able to see them with this perspective of like man it felt so intense and shitty in that moment and I am so much stronger now than I was then I think the idealized pipeline
for Taylor when it comes to you know ingesting her art is that she writes to understand herself she releases it so other people can understand her we sit with it so that we can understand ourselves and then ultimately take that art from her and make it about that connective tissue between our two shared experiences so that it's not about guy who tried to use your mutual friend as a drug dealer who you know like is that it's not about that guy anymore like it's it's about a guy with that sort
of behavior but not that exact sort of behavior right yeah it's and it's and it's meant to transcend and become like about these were my experiences I'm sure you've experienced them too let's experience them together so that we can get over it yeah it's about feeling your feelings
which is important I think no matter your age like validating feeling your feelings yeah and then also that understanding that like there's another era beyond this one that feels really claustrophobic it feels impossible like there will be more life there will be more
errors to your life that sounds cheesy but it's so real like I think of my life and that was to her and and they don't have you don't have to have it as I guess my aesthetic is like I used to wear more like sevens jeans in the juice and then I was in my skinny jeans era and now now I'm like
somewhere in between I like can't go for a while yeah I'm in my gardening overall garden witcher and that's but like again like you're able to to bring back to fashion but you're able to you know identify parts of your life with you know how you were expressing yourself and part of
that expression was what you were wearing yeah there are so many moments you know I look back on my life and I can remember you know when I used to only wear eyeliner in the in the waterline and nothing else that's an era like that was the time I you know I remember you know being told
when I was very very young and I was you know in ballet classes and being told like oh you're in ballet because you're a girl and that's why you don't wear blue and then proceed like smash cut quits ballet play soccer exclusively wears blue denim blue everything um and like you're dressing
you're dressing for an era and you're dressing to prove a point and you're dressing as part of your personality and your values and what you want to communicate about your life and your preferences and that it's just beautiful language of fashion I love it this is a perfect place for
us to end the app I have had so much fun talking with you I cannot wait to get my hands on the book and everyone follow the Instagram account it's like the highlight of my day I just love looking at it thank you so much and your commentary is so smart that's so nice so if people want to find you
what's the handle for the Instagram account one more time Taylor's a styled and I am also on it's hairstyles.com and my book Taylor's a style fashion through the eras which is you know the definitive swifty style book um it's out October 8th it's available for pre-order now and I just fully
believe it's this stunningly packaged thing that's beautiful inside and out and I'm really really proud of it and I can't wait for people to dive into the nuance and discussion and how you know this incredibly savvy smart person has crafted such a compelling lifetime of style and music seriously
this was so fantastic it was such an honor thank you so much for listening to the culture study podcast right now over at the podcast sub-stack we are talking about all of our opinions about this album and we can talk about things that we didn't get to if you asked a question that didn't get answered here how you would reorder the album are you listening to just the first album like I am what your favorite Taylor Swift aesthetic is whether or not you have ever found out that you
own something that Taylor Swift also owns it's all fair game and it's all over at culturestudypod.substack.com and also a reminder that we have so many great episodes in the works like an exploration of generational nostalgia a deep dive on all of the discourse about the British royal family and how
it differs from place to place and a big grab bag episode that we're calling strong opinions about trivial shit if you want to suggest a topic ask a question about the culture that surrounds you or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment check the show notes for a
link to our google form or type in tiny url.com slash culture study pod the full version of today's episode is free for everyone so if you like what you heard and you want to support the show again head to culturestudypod.substack.com it's five dollars a month or fifty dollars a year and you
get a big discount if you're already a culture study subscriber just go to your email and look for culture study promo code and you'll get ad free episodes an exclusive ask and anything segment weekly discussion threads for each episode and a link to a special google form so that your
questions go to the front of the line if you're already a paid subscriber thank you don't forget to head to culturestudypod.substack.com to take full advantage of all your perks the culture study podcast is produced by me and Helen Peterson and Melody Raoul our music is by pottington bear and you can find me on instagram and and Helen Peterson Melody at Melody is forty seven and the show at culture study pod. Melody is there anything that we missed? are we good? no it was amazing
Melody were you surprised by the two Travis songs? yes I still haven't decided what I think about them except that so high school keeps getting stuck in my head so I guess I like it but alchemy honestly feels a little bit like I need to write a song about Travis so like
I'm gonna just like write one real quick it doesn't feel like fully baked to me but I think so high school is very fun I like that so high school sounds like a song that Travis would like totally I'm convinced that's where it started I think the thing that's most misunderstood about
torture poets is that it is like torture poets is simultaneously the most fucked up shit you will ever hear in your life and like top tier like stand up comedy hours like there's there's so many things that are so funny I'm happy because baby is the funniest thing she has ever done
this is funny you know how to you know how to ball I know I literally screamed not like oh my god I screamed but like I screamed the did you hold this witness line yeah that was very good right yeah and like people are taking its tattooed golden retriever like it's like
like no AI wrote these lyrics like no it's and like this is what I was talking about with like the cringe like you don't understand she's being funny like yes yeah and the number of songs she has about men not laughing at her joke and like this woman this woman wants you to think that she's
funny if there's anything inherent to like her discography it's damn it somebody laughs my jokes but she's she's and that's okay like she's a dad joke like she's like dad joke personified you know like I just and it's totally okay yes well we're gonna include some of this is like a bonus Easter egg in our podcast oh my god if you know this is our fault track at the end of the pod