¶ Upcoming Podcast Episode Topics
Hey everyone, we just wanted to go over a few upcoming episode ideas so that you can submit your questions. We're gonna do a star image analysis of Hilary Duff in honor of her new album, which is out after a 10-year musical hiatus. She's Terrain, she's doing all the podcasts and profiles. And Melody loves her. We have Allie Jones. We have Allie Jones who writes a fantastic gossip newsletter. And at the end of every issue, she has.
stuff by Hilary Duff. So I actually have kept up to date somewhat on what Hilary Duff is doing because Allie has kept me updated. But like what an interesting mid millennial star image for us to analyze. So send us your questions. We've also got an episode about kid influencers, specifically like how they look back on being a kid influencer, how they grapple
with being a person who basically like sells a lifestyle or th sells their parents' lifestyle. Uh this is we're gonna be doing this episode with someone who's written a whole book talking to a bunch of former kid influencers. So A ton to unpack here. Just take it wherever you want. And then we're working on an episode about conversion therapy with someone who lived through it and has written a memoir about it. So what do you want to add?
Finally, we're also working on a really fun episode about gossip. So we talk about celebrity gossip a ton on the show. And yes, we will talk about that in some form in this episode, but we're also going to talk about normal people gossip, about old school gossip columns. about the way that just like sitting down and like talking to your friends, like just talking shit to your friends, like what does that do? Why do we like doing it? All of that sort of thing.
The person who we're gonna have as our co-host studies specifically the way that gossip columns worked in the historically black newspapers from the nineteen thirties to the nineteen sixties, which is such an interesting period to talk about gossip. So I cannot wait for this episode, but we need your questions as always. So submit all of your questions for all of these episodes or for the Ask and Anything segment. We always need your questions for that.
using the quick and easy submission form, which is at tinyurl.com slash culture study pod. There's always a link in the show notes as well. Okay, thanks everyone. Enjoy today's show.
¶ Cat Sebastian's New Book 'Starshipped'
This is the Culture Study Podcast, and I'm Ann Helen Peterson. And I'm Kat Sebastian and I rate queer romance, including Starship. Which is your new one that's just come out. If I'm counting right, you've written twenty one queer historical romances. Yeah, that's my count too, is um it's twenty one or twenty two. Like I had
a word document that had listed all of them plus their word counts. And then like when I got to when I realized I was at like a million words, I think, you know what? We're just gonna lose this file. Like we're not opening this document. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It is what it is. It's not my business. How many books I've read at this point. And but the one that just came out, it's contemporary, right? I mean, I guess like if it's set.
How does like how does one decide what's historical? This is like arguing over what makes something classic rock, right? Um uh the technical definition for classic rock is twenty years in the past, which means that like In sync is classic rock. My daughter was listening to like Smash Mouth or something. Okay. And like
And like I was informed this was dad music and like I almost drove off the road. Okay. Like I have no like I have like oh and hooting the blowfish. Like it's like like what? Like what? Like first of all, like how did those wind up like in the Pantheon? I mean, Hootie and the Blowfish, I remember this so vividly, was at the very top of Entertainment Weekly's uh
best selling records in the United States for a year. Be and just like single after single. They all sounded exactly the same. I love Hootie. Um But this book comes out within the last twenty years. Can you tell us about it? Like tell us the plot. I love the cover. I can't wait. It's so it's a long-running sci-fi show. And to the two stars of the show
Or they think they hate one another. They hate one another, but they've been carpooling to work. Okay. Um, it's like really important to the like psyche of one of them, our point of view character, that they hate one another. And when one of them decides to leave the show, he realizes that it's going to look like he was pushed out for just being a jerk. Cause he kind of Is it your? And so he decides that what he need to do is
like do a PR stunt, like fake a friendship. Like he's oh, he's like such good friends with this coworker who we hate. Like it turns out I'm really easy to work with. Look at this. You know? And um What ensues is that they turn out to have more in common than they thought. Ooh. Uh it kind of reminds me of Kathryn Heigel like exiting Grace Anatomy and being like, No, I'm friends with everyone. Yes. Like everyone likes me. Yes. Yes. It happens all the time too.
You know, like where it where you're like, oh I s you know, like I I'm sure you're very likable. I'm sure your mom likes you. Like I'm sure it's all it's all good. Uh, would you describe the vibe of the sci fi show as more like Battleship Galactica or more like Deep Space Nine? Like what kind of sci fi are we talking about? Uh yeah. Okay. So
Battlestar Galactica is like what I had in mind in terms of like I love my star my spaceship shows, okay, but most of them aren't what you would call like prestige TV, okay? No. But like with Galactica, you'd get like almost that energy, right? And like it was like disappointment viewing, like when it first came out, you know. And I will also say there is a whole quadrant of media studies academics who are obsessed with it, which are often
Like it's not always a marker of quote unquote quality television, but like there was just a lot of of stuff going on there. I was fully obsessed. Like I I made my children watch it like a year ago. And Yeah, what they think. What they think. They hated it, but they hate all of my spaceship shows. So like whatever. You know, they like the fact that they didn't like it means it's it's really good actually. Um you have so many Huge fans in our audience.
¶ Writing Process: Vibes, Plot, Research
But for people who have not read your books, I love how you describe Your books just generally. a few different places, like different interviews you've done and how you've described it. So I would love to hear and maybe that's changed. Maybe maybe now you have a new way of describing, but what do you say usually? Oh is it um sweaters and crying? Like the one melody and I were admiring before was um like the vibes to plot ratio is heavy on the vibes. Yeah. It's like there's
just enough plot to like make it stick together, you know? Like just enough like just enough to like to like keep the dough like solidified, you know? Um they have to like what I was um I'm doing revisions for my next book. And like it came out like a giant mess the way it usually does. And I was telling the editor like I just needed the character to have been doing something while they're falling in love, you know? Like I realized like that's it.
Like that's it. Like that is the kernel of like my like journey as a writer is I have to find out what they're doing while like I can the interpersonal stuff is pretty easy for me to figure out. But like what are they doing? I can't just make them sit in a room and have like conversation. you know yeah um there has to be something and that something is nominally impossible
And I can tell too that you get really into like a time period and are like, Oh, the post war newspaper industry was really interested in New York and you're like, So let's do that. That's exactly what it is, where it's like
It's hard, like there's a chicken and an egg situation here, right? Like did I the the book that was about baseball, is that because I'm into baseball or was I like into baseball because I was already kind of researching the book? Who knows? We'll never totally. But um totally. But like that is like part of the fun of writing historical fiction in general, is that you can spend a year of your life
like doing like immersive research on something that can become your like all-encompassing special interest. And then just at the point when you start to get bored of it, you can pick something else. I love it. Or you can write another book there. You could be like there's still more. Right. that's I'm waiting for that to happen. You know, like usually like like usually usually it's like after a book I'm like really ready to go, you know, other places, other things.
¶ Evolution of Queer Historical Romance
To have characters wear different types of like formal wear and casual wear, like to describe that. Your first book came out a decade ago. What was the landscape of queer stories with historical romance? at that time. Like what do you remember when your books came out? Like how did people talk about them? Okay. So like slightly irritatingly like the narrative at the time was like it's this is like the first queer romance like ever written. Like here she is. Like she did it. No one's done it.
Right. And like that's not true. I mean, like people no, it's like it's not even true. Somebody pointed out that it wasn't even true within my publisher. You know? But like. There was queer historical romance. It's just that like you had to go looking for it, right? Like you've had to like you had to know where to look. You had to know where to start the game of follow the links, right? Yeah. You had to be following the right people on social media. And this is all a very high barrier to entry.
Yeah, yeah. But like K J Charles was writing, um Totally. Jordan Hawk was writing. And that's like what like, you know, like I don't if they hadn't been writing what they were writing like set in the past, right? I don't think it would have occurred to me to do it, you know? Yeah. Um yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and what I had in mind was like something very
Like when I started to write, I had been reading a lot of like read and see set romances, like a lot, like back to back. Never like when my kids were babies, like I basically just had a book in one hand and a baby, like they were all babies at once, basically. You know what I mean? Like in a baby and the other. And it was like absolutely self-medication. And like eventually it occurred to me, like, wait a second, you know, like there's no queer people. Everybody's like remarkably mentally well.
Where they're like they start out like kind of like dark'cause they had like a tough childhood, but that's magically cured by the love of a good woman. Yes. And like, you know, if only, you know, um, if only there were all these women out there who were like going to going to solve our traumas. But um I wanted to like take that like because Regency Romance has like a there's an energy of shared universe like.
fandom type of energy where where it's like theory it is related to history, but it's mostly related to other works of fiction set in this same in this same universe, right? Like Rich People, London, um It's drawing on like a collective imaginary that exists in our heads. Which is great from an from like an accessibility standpoint where like you you pick up a book and you don't have to if you need to turn off part of your brain, right? You have that.
Where you already know where these people are what they're wearing and what they're dancing to and what their day looks like, you know? Yep. Um And so I wanted to take that universe and fill it up with like queer people. That's what I wanted to do. And it turns out that once you start doing that, you also wind up having to unpick a lot of other like foundational parts of this universe where totally it was like it took me like five pages before I realized I found
writing about rich people, like privileged people to be like the least appealing thing. Like being like the rich, like like somebody who inherited wealth and privilege was like the least attractive thing a person could have could be, you know? Well, and it makes it it does though. I think this is a different sort of coziness, right? Is that the coziness of not having to worry about money all the time and part of the reason why many people seek solace. Totally.
In these books. Yeah. And it's like, um, this is also why people read about like billionaire romance and stuff, where it's just like just imagine not having to think about it, right? Right. But it turns out when you're writing about right. So reading a book, that's a couple of hours. Re writing a book Like I have to spend many, many months of my life and I can't spend many, many months of my life with somebody who I want to tie to the train track.
You know. Right. Right. Like at least not in that particular way. You know what I mean? And you and you can't when you have the knowledge of like how colonialism was working in this time. Like you I I would imagine as a writer, if you know all of this stuff, you can't like turn it off and be like Oh, we're just gonna like pretend this doesn't like exist in this world.
It's very difficult. It's like it is if you put everybody in outer space, right? Where like they have different problems, you know, like then I can I have a it's easier for me then to just say like Okay, sure. Like he's the Space King, you know what I mean? Like you know what I mean? Like and I'm just gonna go with that, you know? Totally.
But like'cause I don't know I don't I don't know the details of like who's being marginalized by that trade agreement, you know. Yeah. It's always that's kind of the be I've always loved that about like space dramas, right? Is they can kind of configure these new ideas about how like race works, right? Or like
What if we don't have to eat ever? Um That sort of thing. Uh we're gonna get to this more in the questions, but I think oftentimes people have been Convinced or persuaded by narratives that like Well, If you wanna be like grappling with reality or historical reality, then like you could never have someone who's queer. Like they would be you know what I mean? Like just these very blanket narratives that are.
Or like eager that queer people, you know, like got invented in nineteen ninety five. Like that's always Yeah. Which is also like a Ellen Ellen went on the cover of People magazine and then gay people existed. That's right. That's how it happened. Like I was there I remember being like, oh, I w I didn't exist.
And then I sprang fully into being. But like, you know, like and that's always very sweet. And like that's I don't really, I don't, I don't really know what kind of like shelter life you have to have to believe that, but like good for you, you know. The Culture Study Podcast is sponsored by Zoc Doc. The other day a friend was talking to me about how she needed to find a new kids dentist to get sealants on her young sons.
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¶ Themes Emerging in Historical Novels
Okay, so our questions are so fantastic. We're gonna start with one that's gonna open a lot of doors for us from Katie. Your latest novel after hours at Door Yard Book. felt wildly relevant to me. It made me reflect intensely on questions like how we balance personal safety with solidarity, how we intentionally build community, and how we keep or reclaim our values in a corrupt system.
When you start writing a historical novel, do you have a clear idea in mind of contemporary themes you plan to explore, or do you just have the plot and characters and the themes emerge organically? For me, um, I don't usually start out with like, I definitely don't know what the themes are gonna be. And I only have the loosest grasp on who the characters are. I have a setup and
a sense of how these characters are going to relate to one another. Like do they like one another? Do they respect one another? And as I'm writing, I get deep into who the characters are. And then as I'm writing, themes like patterns crop up and I'm like, okay, like this is something that's important to the story, to the characters, to me.
You know. Yeah. Um, and with storyard books, like it takes place in um in nineteen sixty eight, which until recently probably like took the record as the worst year in American history. And um and like I wrote the book in twenty the first draft in twenty twenty three and I mean like the politics were there, like the events were there, but yeah the idea of um feeling complicit in the evils that your country is doing wasn't there.
And so as I'm revising it last year, like that was all I could think about. And so like yeah, that made it in. And then it also made sense, like given who those characters are and like what they, you know, like that they also would be thinking about that. But I am a writer who writes. pretty messily. I delete probably as many words as I write. And if
It is by that process of like refining that I figure out like who these people are and what the like who who I'm making them. You know what I mean? Like who am I making them? Like how do I how do I make these like words on a page into human beings? And how do I make The things that keep repeating into a theme that's going to be satisfying for the reader without them being hit on the head with like a plank that says.
You know what I mean? Like or what is you know. Yeah, just that like didactic like Here's how it connects to the present. Right. Like a parenthetical without being a parenthetical. Right. That to me is so like infantilizing in a way. I don't want it to be prescriptive. And I don't I really, really Like one thing that I I get very bothered when I'm reading a book.
And it treats me like someone who doesn't know how to like look at Wikipedia or have a thought or like remember what happened five pages ago or whatever. And so that is something that when I'm writing, I wanna make sure that I'm like treating the reader with like that level of respect for their intelligence.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and one of the things I really like about your books is that like the themes are there with like the vibes, as we say. But they're there in a way that like I fit I'm not necessarily like underlining a sentence and being like, wow, the present, right? Like it's more like I finish the book and then I go on a walk with my dogs and I'm like,
like these ideas are percolating and that's really nuanced, right? Like that that takes uh like a lot of skill. And I think that's why people return to your books like regardless of the time period again and again.
¶ The Author-Editor Dynamic
Well, I mean I hope so, right? Like that's that's like that's my long game here. Yeah. What's your relationship like with your editor? Everyone's is so different. And I think sometimes people have this like really like romanticized understanding of how writers work with editors where they're like going back and like constant communication. But do you think of it as more like refining? Does did they flag things that you haven't thought about? How would you describe it?
When I have written a book that I've that's like good, you know, like when I'm in an ideal world, I can give this like a good book to my a B plus book to the editor, and then she will find the things that will help it go to the next level.
But sometimes I hand a book to the editor like I'm dropping my car off at the at the mechanic and just being like it's going clack clack clack clack. You know what I mean? Like an I don't know, I don't know. You know? Yeah. And like and it's fun being able like that editors can do both, you know, like it's
Like the most recent book that I turned in is like very much like a like it's just making a funny noise. I don't know. It's here's a car shaped. It's called you know a car shaped. Um and I think that's like that winds up being rewarding for both of us because like we've taken this like a lump of trash and we have like made it into a story.
Um this is my third editor that I've worked with, not counting like I've worked with independent editors for um like books that I've self-published, right? Yep. Um I am I have had the phone call that's like I kind of think that you gotta like delete this. Much more gently. And I've had the phone call that's like
Well, what did you think you were accomplishing here? You know what I mean? Like and and like that's actually great. You know what I mean? Like I am so glad that they are able that they will stop me. They are not gonna let me publish something bad. And that is a relief. And also sometimes when you were forced to say what you thought you were accomplishing.
then you get clarity about what you should actually be writing instead of what you wrote. I'm always like, Carl, like that is not your business or my business. What I always tell people about editing like that when you first get your edits back. You need to let you look at'em and then you need to walk away and just like be you can like go, you're like, How dare they? Right. And then like
Twelve hours later, you're like, Yeah, yeah, okay. Twelve hours later, it's like you're a genius. Do you know what I mean? You're a genius, you have blessed me and my manuscript like with this. You know, but yeah, at the f at first you're like, You suck, I suck, we're never talking again. You know, exactly. Yeah, it's like I have been really lucky to work with editors who Are able to perceive my vision even when I do not perceive my vision. Like with this most recent one, my editor was like.
the pointed something out to me that had just been a background fact, which winds up definitely being like one of the like he key parts of the story and like I just didn't notice. Like I put it there like with my little fingers and didn't realize that I was doing something and she found it. And like that's like that's so cool. You know, that we get to
Now listeners can try to figure out what that is in hindsight once they listen to this episode. And if we've done our job even remotely well, they will not find it. You won't be able to find it. Okay. Next question comes from Sarah.
¶ Choosing MM Romance Settings
Cat Sebastian, you write historicals in a lot of time periods. Post World War II, Regency, nineteen sixties. What makes a time period ripe for MM romance? Are there any time periods you've tried but they just didn't work? Hmm. Oh, that's a good one. So for me, like the most important thing when I'm picking a setting is that I have to be into it. Like I have to like, I have to like that's it. Um, because my
boredom threshold is quite low. So if I'm gonna research, if I'm going to be writing a book for a long period of time, there has to be enough in that that time period, that setting for me to really sink my teeth into. Yeah. Otherwise that book is simply never getting written. With a few exceptions. Like every now and then I'm like, I can write a medieval. And then I remember I'm like so ignorant about and about like that period. Like like absolutely not. That is for other people to do.
And then there's a couple where it's just not my lane. Like I don't think the world needs um a like white woman to be writing about like uh the like West in the eighteen sixties or whatever. Like we don't need that. Someone else can write that, you know? And I don't think I'd write a book set in the middle of the AIDS crisis. That just feels like not my lane. Um
But I haven't actually tried to write a book in a period and then have it not work out because of time period's fault. I can't blame the time period for anything that hasn't worked out. One thing I was thinking about The most two recent of yours that I've read are We Could Be So Good and uh Heather Page. And both of them are in these really interesting moments of like masculinity post war where there is some like
supposedly everything is fixed, but it's actually very fluid trying to figure out like how do we define what manhood is. There's a character in Hither Page that was a deserter, but like what is that actually mean? Like how do we define what good manhood looks like? It's just really interesting. There's so much to play with there.
Yeah, especially like um I don't know if you've read um Alan Barabet's Coming Out Under Fire, but like during World War Two in particular, you have this like loosening of standards when it comes to like pe people maybe look the other way, you know? Yeah. Um and then afterwards there's this like really stat constriction. Like in the US you have um You have like this whole like you know, you have McCarthyism, you have the lavender scare and you have this like tightening of what it means to
What it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, you have this like really like the solidifying, this like temporary, okay? Like solidifying of like gender role. Yep. Total backlash if you think about it, right? Yeah. That's very like poisonous.
And I think that like that it takes its toll certainly. And I think that we can all relate to how that would how that would do it. And that does that is something that interests me. Like when we like when all of when not I don't say all of a sudden, but like when sort of the knot tightened. You know? Yeah. And also like I like the other end of it too, like where
all of a sudden the knot loosens. Like what does that mean? Like when you've become so used to these are the rules, I'm following the rules, you know, like and then all of a sudden there's like a new vista of possibility. That has to be terrifying also. Yep. I think about this all the time actually when it comes to m like celebrity, especially male celebrities and and being out.
How does someone like let's say like Ricky Martin, right, who became a celebrity and like whose image was really fixed around performance of masculinity, but also was at least technically in the closet, right? Like as time passes. How do you how do you shift your identity to include more of that? But also, you are so acclimated to performing self-
as a closeted person. Like that two thousand would be an interesting time to Yeah. Yes. Um and like that whole like two thousand, two thousand five period were like Yeah. That's like'cause also this is like the peak of like Gawker stalker era. Yep. Right. Yep. You know, and so there's this like, and yet it's before social media, basically. Basically, right.
It's like Perez Hilton outing Lance Bass because he and his reality star boyfriend were wearing the same clothes, like we're sharing clothes. And then that forces Lance Bass to go on the cover of People magazine and be like, I'm gay. Right. But as you said, before social media really interesting fraught time. So like celebrities don't have their own platform really. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yes. That needs to be like I've read a I read a couple of historical um
you know, some historical fiction set in that time period. But like I am feel like the crypt keeper when I think about writing you know? Like it's also just a difficult time for me personally. Like it's kind of like why I don't like like flare jeans, you know? Like Yes. Like this is like where it's um
Like I don't want to go back there. No. Like, first of all, like I wore those pants when I was like a grown-up with a graduate degree. Okay. So like I know. Same. I was looking at my daughter's pants. I was like, those could be those she got them at the third phone, but they those could be my pants. You're those could be the pants that I wore, you know. Like, no, I will not borrow them.
¶ Queer HEAs as Resistance
Okay, this is a good tee up for our next question. Well, it's an okay tee up. It's it's a solid tee up for our next question, which is from Camilla. I am an avid reader of queer historicals. And I'm curious about the dynamic of fantasizing about queer happy endings in historical settings where danger to queer people is often present.
Especially in the context of today's rising hostility to queerness. I think a lot about the role of stakes in romance, specifically the balance between external constraints and internal emotional barriers to the romance. And how the fantasy of overcoming or resolving these stakes is a big part of what makes romance impactful. In a time when so many queer and trans folks are facing down threats to our civic, existential, and physical safety.
What can the fantasy of a queer historical HEA offer? Or, in other words, why is it so comforting, even thrilling, to read about queer romance in the past? Is it the erotics of the closet, secrecy as titillating, or something more nuanced? I would love to hear your and Kat's thoughts. So much good stuff here. This is a classic culture study reader question. Um I love that. I really everything about that. Where does it take you? I like I think a lot about like one thing that comes that
Okay. So like when I started writing like 2015, like I like genuinely believed like we were leaving homophobia like in their rearview mirror. Okay. Like I and like and like the current tide of like anti-trans. bigot bigotry like hadn't really started in the US. Okay. Yep. And like that's that's like blindingly naive. But one thing that I think about a lot is that like marginalized people have always managed to find like joy and love and community. And doing that
is like a strike against oppression. Oppression works best when the people you're trying to oppress don't have joy and love and community. Fascism requires fear, right? It requires despair. And so I think the comfort is knowing that queer people did this before and will keep doing it. But also knowing that that the act of finding happiness in whatever form that takes.
is a strike against the forces that don't want you to have it. I think so I think it's those two forces working together. Yep. I like Some part of fascism to me is like how dare people who aren't exactly like me be happy. Yes. Yes. Right? Like that is like and you can see it especially when you look at what people are saying about like what
What people are saying right now about trans people and immigrants. Okay. Like the overlaps there, like if a writer did that, they would say that it was like two on the nose, you know? Um And it's very similar to what was said um during the civil rights movement and also about gay people in you know, like in the early days of um gay liberation. And like
That's not a coincidence. It's because fascism has one language. Like that's it. Like fascism is has like has one selling point. And it's like we don't want these people to be happy. What about the part of the question talking about the erotics of the closet and just like constraints, right? Because I think that that in a lot of romances, right? Like that's the the narrative tension. Oh yeah. And and you see it also, I think, to some extent in like
class difference romances, right? And also interracial historical romances. I've seen it. Um, so how do you think about that? Oh yeah, I think that like I think that, I mean, for me as a writer, how are we going to do this when the world doesn't want us to do it? Because sometimes the only external conflict that I need, right? Like I can make the rest of it internal conflict.
And I think that like there are many writers who've constructed narratives that are like much more based on I like the theoretics of the closet. Like that's like that's um that's something that I tried to step away from personally mostly because it stresses me out. You know? Yeah, yeah. Like I can't write a book that's gonna like send me into fits like every time I open the manuscript.
But I think that all I think that all works together. I think that often it's like the secrecy is what's getting you in the door. That's what's getting you to that's what's getting the book onto the shelves. And that's what's getting you to open the book. But like that's not gonna be enough. So sustain the book, like you've got to have other stuff going on too. Yeah, absolutely.
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ZBiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash culture study and use the code CULTRESTUDY at checkout for 15% off. Today's episode is sponsored by Jones Road Beauty. All right, I've been using Jones Road for several years, which is why when they approached us to do ads, I was like, yes, absolutely yes. I use the miracle balm on my cheeks every day.
It just gives me like the very slightest amount of color. I like just seriously just a tiny bit. that makes me feel like I'm put together. And then I am now obsessed with the shadow stick. They sent me a darker shade one that's like brown that I can use just a slight amount of. And there's one that's more of like a matte. I love it. First of all, it goes on really smoothly. I love that I can just take this stick and then just slightly wipe it over my eyelash and then I put my eyeliner on over.
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Just head to JonesRodebeauty.com and use code CULTUTRE at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that our show sent you. Next question comes from Julie and it's about queer romances more broadly and allows us to talk, you know, we didn't do the like very typical like why do women write male male romances like
Oh my gosh, there are so many there are many things that have been written about this. We talked about I talked about it in like heated rivalry stuff. Like every artic every smart article has traced this history. We don't need to talk about this.
¶ Lesbian Romance and Gender Narratives
But we do need to talk about lesbian romance. So this question comes from Julie. I would love a discussion about lesbian versus gay, queer romance. Why, even as a gay woman does lesbian romance not feel as intense or well written as queer men? The best sex scenes I read last year for two women was The Safekeep, and that's an intense post World War II novel. I'm sure some of this is personal preference for
But it comes up often at book club and with my queer female and non binary friends. Thoughts? Have you read The Safe Keep? The Safe Keep is great. I loved it. Yeah. Like I know, me too. I was like, this is this is really hot. I actually like also was complete like it's one of those books where I just thought about it nonstop for same like weeks after reading it.
And like wanted to like go and like gently place it beneath the pillow of like everyone I knew. You know? I kind of did that. I did that. I wrote like a whole newsletter about it that was like This is gonna fucking blow your mind. Like it's so definitely done. I love it. Yes. Um and also I think revises a period in history that I think a lot of people have a very neat narrative about in terms of what was happening with
How Jewish people were reincorporated into daily life after the Holocaust. And it's um every single aspect of that book is layered and messy and like you just love you love to see it right like it was just like such it yes anyway underneath everyone's pillow
Okay. So here is here's like I get this question all the time. Okay. Like this is like and what I generally say is like this is this is my theory. I've been there. Okay. My theory is that like this is an issue on the reader end. All right. Like we are all swimming in a sea of patriarchy and we're used to seeing men as main characters and it would take a yep yep yep yep of psychiatrists and like an exorcist to undo all of that. Okay. Yeah. And
I don't know what to do about that, right? Like it I think that We are in a place where we're seeing so much more super hot lesbian romance and that's like the progress I personally want to see in the world, you know. Um Yeah. And this is like where I plug Anna Cowan's The Duke, which is coming out really, really soon. If it hasn't come through, it takes place.
like in French Revolution and right after the French Revolution, in an alternate England where women can inherit titles and port and like so the the Duke is a one Okay. Yes! Yes. And the Duke is also the worst person you're ever gonna meet. Like which is like borrowing from the tradition of like men men dukes were the worst person you're ever gonna meet. Okay. And so Just truly terrible, complete with the daddy issues and all of that, you know. Um
And like so hot, like I genuinely couldn't believe Anna Cowan is actually a gem. Okay. Um, this is basically her like it's being treated like a debut because it basically is, but she wrote a book, got fifteen years ago, um, about a duke who cross dressed. and like wound up checking up with a pig farmer and it was like this is like to publish that in like 2012 or whatever. 2012 when it was like the law to be like doing like Bridgerton. Okay. You know, like she broke the law for us.
I I love this idea too because w it takes like a almost like this imaginary or like other timeline England. To allow a female character to have like the expansiveness of character, right? Because the uh ways you could be a woman were so limited. Yep. And like the way I always see it is like, Oh, this one's spunky. Right. And I'm like
Like this doesn't do anything for me. Like, oh, she reads more books than this other one who also read books. Or like she goes around and visits the people the different farmers on the estate. Not interesting. Yes. Like. And this is just a horrible asshole. Okay. I love it. Like like God, like populate all of my books with women who are horrible assholes. Okay. Like I will pay full resale price. Um
I think like but I think that there's another thing going on when it comes to gender that you like sort of got at there. Okay. When I started writing, there were quite a few other writers of like MM romance. who were using at the time like she her pronouns and then a few years later they were using babe em pronouns and now they're using he him pronouns and like there is something about reading. about queer men that I think is a way to explore the parts of gender and the parts of
being a person, okay, that are not usually allowed in narratives about women. And obviously there's like a there like you and I could spend we could fill a bus. on like exceptions to that. You know what I mean? But it is like we're used to the patterns that we see. For me, when I write about women, there is something vaguely dysmorphic about it. And like I don't know what's going on and I have decided that I will leave that for the afterlife. Okay. I don't know what it is.
That's so interesting, but I get it. And I realize that I can make I could write the asshole women. Like I could do that. And instead I'm not. And it's like it feels very uncomfortable. And and I'm saying that as someone who doesn't have like I don't have like a deep relationship with like being a woman in quotation marks. You know what I mean? Yeah. But like I feel like if I'm writing a woman, like I've gotta commit to that. Like what am I, you know what I mean? Like and it's
Instead, I will simply not. I will just not do that. I will leave that rock unturned. This makes me think of a couple of things and and the first is that like I think the the dominant narrative explanation for female fandom of MM romance is that like it allows women to see men as more vulnerable, right? And that like I get it, right? Sure. Um and I think that is a huge part of especially like the recent heated rivalry phantom. Yeah.
But I also think like hearing you describe this it reminds me too like this is Pretty Freudian, but like a desire for the phallus to have to like embody this moment like these positions of power and to identify with these positions of power that are often withheld from us because we are not like Our sex organs do not matter.
the sex organs of the protection. Especially like with the with like heated revelry has been like a crack course in like um How people will recreate gender roles even when you're given Like a story about two men. Like it is Totally. Like I like, wow. Like I can't I got to see it in real time. I can't it's like watching a star be born, you know? Like it's except I didn't want to see that.
And uh and that's so interesting too how they are trying to force us onto the actors who play these characters. Literally it's stars being born. Yes. Like they're trying to force this understanding of like gender dynamics onto their stars. Yes. So interesting. And when those stars step back, uh huh. It is perceived as like a like a violation, like there's something going on where they broke the rules, they broke the contract. I'm not used to seeing men treated like that. And it's um and
You know, like I'm not on social media right now. So anything that like finds its way to me is either something one of my kids sends me or it is on Tumblr, which I don't even count as social media. You know, like, um and like and still I'm seeing this unfold and it is like It could have this it could be two thousand seven and I'm watching this happen to Benedict Cumberbatch. Okay. Yeah. It is like you know, it is not great. But it is fascinating to see it happen.
Yeah, for sure. And I think like hopefully it leads to not replicas of this, right? Like I think this is like the the very Like painfully obvious. future is like a bunch of heated rivalry knockoffs instead of like how can we e explore different dynamics that are also titillating and beautiful and interesting yes and undergirded by this very Canadian ethos that is I think that's the heart of a lot of it.
I was the last person in the world actually to watch Heated Rivalry because I was really afraid like that was like my emotional support novel through like many mental health episodes. I was so worried I was gonna watch it and then like have to go get a new mental like I don't they don't they don't just grow on trees like emotional support. So like what was I gonna do?
And so I watched it. Last week I fell down the stairs and cracked some ribs. And it's um Oh my god. Like best possible outcome to that particular fall was if you cracked ribs. And so like, all right, so anyway, I was stuck on the couch. And so I was like, we're gonna do it, like we're pulling the trigger, like we're gonna watch, okay, like So like several hours later, like I emerge from my feedback and I'm like Academy Awards, like art, okay, move, you know, and like the thing that makes it
The thing that makes it so good, okay, is that it's a big swing, okay? Like nobody's pulling back, no one's being cute, everyone is serious, everyone like is giving it their all and no one is pulling punches. And that is the lesson that no one will take from no one. Nobody. Okay. And instead we're gonna get wishy washy, watered down. Oh, I hate you. I hate you too. You know, like and it's and that will be um like we c we could have had good things, you know.
No, I love that. And also your I l so you watched it like last week. I literally finished it like this morning. Okay. Literally. And I got to the end and I was like I was like, you guys, like we did it. Like what did we what did we do? You were at the you were at the cottage this morning. That's crazy.
¶ Storytelling and Queer Emotional Inheritance
Okay, speaking of happy endings, this is a great tee up for our final question. comes from Jenna. When you allow characters like Andy and Nick and Eddie and Mark to be deeply loved and fulfilled in worlds that historically denied them that What does that act of storytelling feel like to you? And has writing those lives changed the way you see queer history, or even the emotional inheritance queer readers carry today?
Oh, I love emotional inheritance. Like I love that because like there's some like you know, queer identities like you know, some identities you inherit, right? And the clearness is in linear or whatever. You know what I mean? Like you don't like you aren't I mean like generally speaking, you're not inheriting. And like the way that we pass down queer history is through storytelling.
One thing that like I often am like really conscious when I'm writing about but like okay, like I know I've stacked the decks, right? Like I've stacked the decks in in the favor of these guys. And there are people who had the decks stacked against them, right? But I feel like I get to shine a light on the best case scenario. Yeah. And people did have that. And that feels good. I love that. Have you heard from any readers about
How how these stories have resonated with them or what they what it's meant to them to have lives represented in this way. Yeah. Like I mean, my bet the best. emails I get are from people who lived through um whatever period I'm writing about. Like that's like I mean, like even when they're like, I got the best email, which was somebody who was like,
She was like telling me how much like you know this resonates with me and they're like those characters would not have flown on Pan Am, it would have been TWA. And I was like and I was like, oh my god, you're right. But like I just picked Pan Am and I thought it would be I didn't know if people would know what TWA was.
You know, but it's like, oh God, like that's what a gift, right? Like when people tell me that they lived through that era or like I was a kid during that era, or like, you know, like that is Awesome. Like I love it. My absolute favorite. And also the other kind of email I really love too. I love all the emails I get, even though my em my inbox is terrible and I don't always respond. Um
Like I was talking about Heated Rivalry being my like emotional support book. Like when someone tells me, like, I've read this book like six times, you know, like I'm like, I feel like I am a healthcare practitioner. You know what I mean? Like I feel like I feel like I arrived in the ambulance and saved your life. Like I feel so good about that, you know? Yeah. And that's I think that like any writer
That's any writer's favorite thing to hear, you know. Yeah. Well, and I think this also means that w when we're like sixty, then we're gonna be prepared to read about two thousand five.
¶ Cat's Queer Romance Recommendations
are not they're not looking back fondly. Some of them are like, I don't know how I feel about the fact that you're writing about this and I'm like, Me neither. So I've seen some of your Hall of Fame queer romance recommendations. But I feel like I I love that you told us about the the new one's called The Duke, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anna Cowan, C O W A N. Amazing. Yeah. If people have exhausted your catalogue
What do you point them towards? Okay. Um, TJ Alexander. Um, they have a gentleman's gentleman, which is MM. One of the characters is a trans man Regency. Strong fairy tale energy. A romp. Okay. Like I really like it was just a pleasure. I'm currently reading Uh when the when the tides held the moon by Vanessa B. DeKelly and it is 1910's Coney Island Sideshow Merman. Okay. I feel like anyone needs to know. Like I like I just I just started it like yesterday and I haven't gotten far.
'Cause I'm doing a panel with Vanessa at some point soonish. And I was I always like to if I'm doing a panel with somebody, I like to read at least one of their books and like this is like lovely. Um oh an Adriana Herrera, an island princess starts a scandal, uh uh lesbian, late eighteen hundreds, really strong Sarah McLean ener energy. Do you have any wrecks for me? I want like I'm obsessed with classic Hollywood and There's so many great stories of like
what did and didn't happen and all the scandal rags had like so much good stuff. And I loved like there were words that they used. This is something if you ever wanna write a nineteen forties, like there were specific words in the gossip columns that they would use to deduce like who was actually there as a date and who was there as a friend and that sort of thing. Um and there's a great biography of a gay columnist named Mike Connolly, who's the g gossip columnist for the Hollywood Reporter.
And like all the ways that he was hinting at this to an audience that was in the know. Interesting. But are there any other MM recs specifically from classic Hollywood that you can think of. I am drawing a blank and That makes me feel like it's not there because I think that the channels would have gotten them that book to me personally if it existed. Right.
That said, I would love to be wrong. Like what I hope is that you now have like notifications on social media or whatever about the book that's going to change our lives. Yes. I would love that. Um I want like a Rock Hudson type that falls in love with it. Like it's not too much to ask, okay. Just like incredible pan. Um
¶ Finding Cat's Work and Farewell
They both were were great fans. You know what? That is true. Not enough people are talking about that. So you're not on social media right now, but where do you direct people to just find like the cornucopia of your of your work? It's like just your website? My website, my newsletter, I send it out once a month when I remember. Okay. Um and like I do I make sure I include like book recommendations and like it's not just promo. Um
Uh I would I mean like my newsletter, like given that the best newsletter in the world is like you still have to like think about whether you're really gonna click on it, right? I think my newsletter at least doesn't happen often. Okay. Yeah. Love it. It's perfect. It's a great recommendation. And one more time so everyone remembers. The book, title, and blurb is
Starshipped and it is sci fi showed actors who hate one another who decide to pretend to be friends. I I also love all the ways that you describe your books. Like on your website, you have like the best little blurbs that actually make me want to read the book instead of like, I don't know. You know how like they use oftentimes blurbs use the same formula of like, a duke, dot dot dot, who doesn't know what he wants, like that sort of thing. Yours are
Exquisite. Oh yeah, like I'm I'm marketing my books to people who were on Tumblr in 2012. That's like like that's my audience. Like no one wants to talk about that. No one wants to acknowledge it. Okay. But like that's Cat, this was such a joy. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Culture Study Podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast because we have
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