I mean, I think it is America and I think it is that's an ideal. Jeans are this classic Americana fashion, you know, I mean, there's just a whole history of Jeans being the staple of American word robes that it's hard for us to imagine not existing with them. Like it would be like if we all stopped wearing underwear or something, like it feels that foundational. But like a post-World War II thing too, right? Absolutely. So it's a contemporary fashion.
Yeah. Feels impossible to imagine without Jeans. Yeah, I mean, you think of like the Ralph Lauren ads from the 80s when we were kids or, you know, I mean, Brook Shields, like Calvin Klein Jeans. Like, Jean marketing is very, looms very large in our cultural memory. And then the thin ideal comes in because as we're going to talk about, Jeans are incredibly hard to find the less you adhere to the thin ideal, the harder your Jeans search will be.
But yet, we're attracted to them because they represent this certain body type that you would have in order to quote, look good in Jeans. Yeah. So we're attracted to the Jeans themselves and we're attracted to the body we think we need to have in order to wear the Jeans. This is the Culture Study Podcast and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. And I'm Virginia Silsmith. I write the Bertose newsletter, post the Bertose podcast and I'm the author of Fat Talk.
Okay. So we got so many questions for this episode. So we're going to be talking about trends, about feelings, about quality, all of it. And by the way, this episode is free for everyone. So even if you aren't a paid subscriber, you're getting the whole conversation without ads.
That includes a particularly excellent ask and anything segment where we're going to make specific recommendations for listeners with specific Jeans needs, including what shoes we're wearing with white leg jeans and also whether you can just give up on Jeans altogether. Okay. So some of the questions we got were about how Jeans just aren't comfortable. And this makes me think of my friends kids who are like in kindergarten, second grade.
And they, you know, little boys, little girls, like they look really cute and they're little like kid Jeans, right? But most kids don't like wearing jeans because they construct their movement. Totally. And they refuse, right? And I love that. I'm like, this second grader who absolutely refuses to wear jeans, like he's got it. He's got it down. He's like, why would I wear that article of clothing when I could wear sweatpants? Yeah. No, absolutely. My kids will not wear jeans either.
And my older kid is going to middle school next year. And so I sort of keep waiting for like when will the jeans thing come in because I feel like that's all I wear in middle school. And she is just like unavailable for that discomfort. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to steer you towards it. That seems great. I feel like I wrote a huge series of articles about jeans. I'm not going to be the one who's like, let's go get you some. I'm not going to steer you some.
Yeah. She can discover them on the streets. Absolutely. I mean, what do you think it is about to that a jean is supposed to like serve all of your needs? Like it's almost this like myth of like incredible utility that you can like, you know, from your fashion, from fashion magnet. It's like, you can dress it up for like what's the word that what was the phrase that they would always use in fashion magazines? Day to night. Yeah. Just a few accessory changes.
Just go from a sneaker to a kitten heel and you are on your way. You didn't have to take off your pants. The heels are popular again. I hate it. I mean, of course they are. Of course they are. Everything is terrible. Everything is terrible. But I do think that that's part of it, right? It's like, you that somehow you can find this perfect gene that like does all of this. Is somehow not trying to hard?
Yes. It's definitely a cool girl vibe, which is like, I just effortlessly showed up this way vibe. Like you don't look like you thought that much about what you were wearing because you're just in jeans, you're casual, but you're not, you know, like it's the effortlessly stylish thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and I always think about this too with like the names of jeans like a boyfriend and jeans, right? Because you just fell out of bed into your boyfriend's pants.
That's a thing that anyone has ever done. I just tossed on these pants that were lying on the bedroom floor and they have so adorable on me. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's like our top line thinking that's going to help us as we move forward and answer all of these reader questions. So we have a ton of them. Let's dive in. This one comes from Rosalyn. My question is, are they just fucking with us? This is about jeans. I don't know who they is, but I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.
A month or two ago, I got a marketing email from Levi's titled The Early Outs Indy Revival starts here. And you'll never guess what it was promoting. Skinny jeans. The marketing copy was party like it's 2012. The 2010s were the heyday for one of our very favorite fits, the super stretchy ultra flattering and credibly versatile skinny jeans. And they're just as great today. This is literal trolling, right? I'm not even a fan of this style.
The eyes still definitely experience the millennial shock wave of skinny jean backlash just a few years ago. I am torn between thinking it's a golden age of jeans because so many more options are now available and being mad slash confused at this nostalgia trolling and fast fashion pressure. What is with this trend cycle? Are jeans just a really noticeable version of style shifts or do they actually carry more significance somehow?
There's so many questions here, but I think we should first flag some of this marketing content, right? The super stretchy ultra flattering and credibly versatile skinny jeans. Like who is this marketing copy addressing? I mean, I just stopped wearing that. I just stopped wearing. And now you're saying they're back. I mean, they're convenient. They're still in my closet. They are still in my closet. Yes, no, I still have a pair for sure. It's definitely trolling millennials.
I think she's absolutely right. I mean, the ultra flattering, like we really need to talk about the word flattering and how problematic it is. Like flattering is just code for them. Yeah, it's just code for makes you look thinner, which was the promise. I mean, obviously baked into the name of skinny jeans. And the versatile thing, it's like exactly what you're just saying. It's like this promise that you're going to be able to wear them with everything.
And it's like the staple of clothing you'll never want to get out of. Never mind the fact that they stretch out after you wear them twice and you're going to be pulling them up because they're super annoying and baggy and don't actually look as cute anymore. Yeah, you try them on the first time and you're like, oh, I kind of like these. And it's usually because there is a high elastic content. And you forget that that also indicates that as you said after four hours of wearing the jeans.
Yes, they were. You're mourning jeans or not your afternoon jeans. They never are. No, I do think, you know, the one thing about skinny jeans that I appreciated is that they did make footwear possible. Yes. They are versatile for footwear. I agree. Absolutely. You know what I could wear with them, right? Like you can wear heels with them if you are that sort of person. Sure. You could wear booties with them. You can wear boots over them. You can wear tennis shoes with them.
Like they had that capability. You can wear sandals. You can wear flip flops with them and not worry about getting the nasty early 2000s drag from the bottom of your jeans. Yeah, when we like dragged our jeans through the slush and the holy bottom six inches would be so. Yeah, that was like, that was a dark time for sure. And it was just like, ratty.
Yeah. And unless you like, I don't know, had a fancy mom who was like, oh, yes, you should take advantage of Nordstrom's free tailoring and get your white leg jeans. You're perfect. Like, yeah. Which like, again, it shows, I think the myth of jeans is that they are effortless. Yes. And now you are going to the Nordstrom's tailor to get them hemmed to the perfect length. There's nothing effortless about jeans. These are the most effortful item of clothing. They are so much work. It's such a mess.
I will get to this later, but like I'm shopping for jeans now. I happen to be in downtown Seattle and I was like, this is my chance. I'm going to the Nordstrom flagship and I'm going to take 30 pairs of jeans into that changing room. And I did. And I came out with one and I was like, I did it. I found a non-skini jean that I think is like I can wear, brought at home, wore it for four hours and I was like, these stretch out too much.
Like how I, luckily, Nordstrom, I kept the tag on while I was wearing it in my head. Oh, that's what I was going to be able to return to Nordstrom. But like, that was like, you know, an hour of my day. And I think about the work that you did with jean science trying to figure out, like you ordered so many pairs of jeans. You tried on so many pairs of jeans. Yeah. And I was like, what's the final number? It was well over 50 pairs. It might have been 70, I don't know.
I blacked out a certain box of jeans were just arriving at my house constantly. And I would say most of them weren't even worth testing. Like it was the dressing room experience, you know. You put them on and you were like, absolutely no, absolutely no. And then there were ones that I would wear for a day or two days, keep the tags on and they would become different jeans over the course of the day. They just wouldn't deliver on what they, what I wanted them to be.
So what do you think is going on with the trend cycle? Is it accelerating? Is it just fast fashion trying to get us to like buy a new thing? What's going on? I do think it's accelerated. I definitely think fast fashion is a huge reason why. And I think you just see it more on jeans because again, we have such a clear vision in our head of how our bodies should look on in jeans. And if you find something that even kind of sort of works, you're like, finally I solved it.
And then like three weeks later, there's an email from Levi's or whoever in your inbox being like, no, those are the wrong jeans. You can't do that anymore. And there's a weird, and we see this perpetuated on TikTok and Instagram and you know everywhere that like the youth talk about clothes, there's always been a weird backlash to quote bad jeans. Yes. So like having the wrong jeans feels like a very dangerous proposition. Like it's it feels risky to have the wrong jeans.
You're going to code yourself as old. You're going to code yourself as fat. You're going to code yourself as untrendy and un-stilish and unprofessional. Like there's a lot riding on having the right jeans. It's so fascinating to how that coating switches as we age, right? Because when we were teens, it was you didn't want to have mom jeans, right? Like you didn't want to have Lee jeans or whatever. Like you know what we thought of as as mom jeans.
And then as we aged, it's like, I don't want to have the jeans that make me look old instead of, well I guess it's still old, but it's just like what you're aiming for is it different like. Well, and it's the trend coming around, right? Because now the like Gen Z will wear mom jeans, but they're wearing them ironically. Like they'll wear the giant jeans. Yeah. And, but they can pull it off because they are young and you know, in many cases in terms of what you're seeing on social media, then.
Yeah. And so then for me, a fat mom to wear mom jeans would not be an ironic statement. It would just be me being a fat mom in jeans. And so then it's like, oh no, I have to do something different to subvert that. And of course, what we really need to be saying is like, there's nothing wrong with being a fat mom. Yeah. Just be a person wearing jeans. Like what we're trying to communicate through the jeans is actually quite harmful and like negative stereotypes about our rights. Right.
Well, and then you also, you don't want to be the mom who's like trying to hard, right? Right. It's so hard. Right. Like, if you're trying, like you have to somehow signal that you're like, with it, you're like, I watched TikTok. I know skinny jeans are out, but also am I supposed to be wearing these white like pants? Yeah. I'm not going to go too far. Yeah. And you see this, I think, in the silhouettes that are marketed like something like a state, I don't know, anthropology.
They're trying to find that comfortable middle instead of like, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Is like really always trying to thread that needle for us. And I appreciate it, but it just also makes me feel more confused. How much of our, you know, we said this is millennial. Estelle's a trolling. I do think, you know, and we talked about this a couple of weeks ago in an episode about millennial nostalgia.
We are at a particular point where a lot of the fashions that are coming back into fashion are from our teens in early 20s. Yep. And I think it brings up body feelings. Yeah, because unless you were frozen in time in 1996, your body changed in some degree. Can you believe it? You know, oh, 30, how many years, so many years, I can't talk to that, but many decades. I've gone by.
And so if you're going to revisit a trend from your youth, it's not going to look the same way it did when you were 14 or 12 or whatever, you know, when you wore it. And so you have to process that. And again, I think it's the age of two of like, wait, we can't have a trend that, like, we thought was cool when we were young, can't be back now because that would mean that we are like over the hill. And we have to really push back on that, right?
Like, yeah, it makes sense when we were kids, like, I remember the 70s were trendy because that was, you know, the thing that was 20 years earlier. Like, of course, this is just how time works. Yes. But it is a lot to, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance there. Okay, next question is from Sarah. I saw a meme recently that was like, just wear the stupidest pants you find. Those are the ones that are cool. Is this true?
Can I as a 41 year old reasonably wear the jeans seventh grade me would have done like crimes for, you know, wide leg long enough to hit the floor. So I know the kids do not know how good they have it with size ranges, even though there's still room for improvement. I own these jeans, but I feel kind of goofy. Do we just feel goofy and jeans lately? I mean, the current trend is definitely goofy. Like, there's no way around that.
Yeah. I have some slightly cropped wide leg jeans and I came out in the me other day and Charlie said, are you going to like a student rights protest? Like, basically, I look like a hippie. Yeah. And I was like, shut up. Like, I'm getting fashionable. No, well, and also like, this is my first try. Yeah, trying. Trying to make me nice.
But it did remind me actually of like that same sort of self consciousness that you get that I got when I was a teen and feeling that way again, after a point where I had found the great jeans, like I had found the jeans that fit me all through the pandemic. Yeah. I was like, these are them. And we'll talk about this more later, but like that I don't have to stop wearing those jeans. No, you don't. No. And I keep, I call them my emotional support jeans.
Like, I keep a pair of elastic waist skinny jeans in my closet, even though I have embraced a straight leg, which we can also talk about this, but in plus sizes, a straight leg really feels like a wide leg because of how badly they size up things. Yeah. So I really am embracing and I even yesterday was wearing a pair of pants they weren't jeans, but they were called barrel pants. And I was like, who have I become? I am so evolved.
But like, yeah, I'm still going to pull out my emotional support jeans for certain situations where I feel like I need that armor or I need that, I actually need there to be less decisions in my brain about when I'm wearing and what shoes go with it, because I already know with the emotional support jeans. Exactly. How do you feel about distressed and also lots of pockets?
I used to have this principle, this moral value of mine, that I wouldn't buy jeans that someone else had already put holes in, I was like, why would I pay for jeans with holes in them? That's such a damn thing to say. Like, did you pay more money to have less pants? Exactly. Exactly. I feel like that's like some wasp value that I can like go of. But no, now I like a distressed jean. I don't like a lot of bar and cars pockets. I just feel like I'm not going to use them.
They're going to get in the way. They're going to, I don't know. I don't tend to gravitate towards that, but if that works for people, you know, universal standard has this jean right now where the zipper kind of goes zigzag across your middle. And I've seen that like really cute on some people. I am fine with a zipper just going up and down. I don't feel the need to reinvent that wheel, but I'm here for it.
You know, I've seen some embellishment on pockets that really reminds me of rodeo fancy, like where I grew up like fancy jeans. And this has been true. This is held true for a very long time. Fancy jeans are highly embellished with lots of stitching and jewels on the back pockets, on the sides, that sort of thing. And I kind of love that that is like switching over into the mainstream.
I mean, I wanted a bedazzle or so badly, I had to tell you, I would have bedazzled everything if I'd gotten that. I used to watch those infomercials, but I never had my 39, 99 or whatever it was. So, yeah, I think what I like about what's happening in jeans right now is I do think it's like the fact that it's less clear is overwhelming to us, but it's also good because it means there's more options.
And I think what we need to get away from is like the really strict, like good jeans are only this. They only work on this kind of body, like we need to get away from that. So if getting wacky with our pockets and are distressing and all that opens it up a little, I'm here for that.
So one thing that I want to interrogate a little bit is this idea, because I've heard it express a lot and I felt it a little bit, that like, oh, it's great that Baggy is the style because that allows people to feel like to not be as self-conscious about their bodies, but it's like skinny girl baggy, right? Yes. I mean, the reason Gen Z can ironically wear mom jeans is because you're putting a baggy garment on a thin body and that's the fashion.
And when a regular fat person wears a baggy garment, that's Americans a Disney World. Like that's the sort of tropes that we have in our head. And I think it's really important to be aware when we're playing into that. And it shows up in lots of different ways, like you might feel like if I wear a baggy jean, I have to wear a crop to like more form-fitting top with it to balance my proportions. Right. You might have really strong feelings about which shoes you put with those jeans.
All separate things we can get into. Where what you feel comfortable in absolutely is always going to be my bottom line on this, but I think it's useful to know when what you feel comfortable in is being driven by the thin idea and diaculture. So you can sort of say to yourself, like, do I want to be perpetuating this? And that's not to say thin people should stop wearing baggy jeans. Like you're going to don't send that email. Right. But yeah, that is what's attractive about it.
We have this idea of bagginess looking interesting on a thin body because of the contrast. And we also have this idea that bagginess will quote hide flaws or hide problem areas. And the truth is, if you're a fat person in baggy jeans, you're just going to look like a fat person in baggy jeans. Like, it's not going to fool anyone into thinking something different. So that, and that's fine because you can be a very cute fat person in baggy jeans.
So that's where we need to recognize like this trend and this idea that these jeans are like easier to wear is rooted in something that maybe doesn't align with your values. Yeah, that is such a good way of putting it. So this next question is from Bria. It's about denim quality and Melody's going to read it.
I have particular fits of jeans I like, but they go in and out of style so fast that when I do need a new pair because I somehow keep getting holes in the knees and that's not work appropriate, I can't find them again. How do people make good jeans last for a long time? And what do you do when you need a new pair? Hmm. I feel like you have some insight into this Virginia in terms of like, jean quality and how you how you can assess it.
I mean, on a personal level, what I can tell you is that I bought the made well high rise skinny jean in the Danny Tinsel wash, probably six or seven times. Like those were the jeans I found that were my skinny jean that I love so much. And I just would buy two pairs a season because I couldn't keep the thighs from wearing out like my thighs rubbed together and I bust through the jeans, which for the price of those jeans is absurd.
Yes. But yeah, that was my solution for several years until made well stop making them. I don't feel like I found a jean I love enough to do that with, but the jeans quality is terrible because of the way jean, you know, the same reason that garment quality in general has really dropped down because of the manufacturing processes. Is there any way that you can keep a jean in better shape?
So if you have some you love and you can't buy three pairs so that's obviously that's not accessible for everyone. I mean, definitely washing them on cold, not using the dryer can help. However, if they are the type of jean that stretches out on you, you need them to go through the dryer. That's the thing is that advice has never worked for me. I'm like, no, I need the dryer. I need the dryer to snap them back. I got to snap them back. Yeah, absolutely.
So again, having multiple pairs, like I hate that that's the answer because obviously that's expensive. But I have had seasons where like I have the same, I have two pairs of the same jeans because with two pairs of those jeans, I can wear them four days in a row because I can only get two wearings out before they stretch out and I have to wash them. But if I can then switch to the other pair, I can swap off. I mean, again, jeans, mental load. Yes, well, it's well.
But yeah, the quality is not there. They are not made. The denim quality really changed. Like what we might remember, I remember gap jeans in the 90s were like, you really, really nice denim. Like this really thick, soft denim that just felt really good. And the way manufacturing has changed in the last 25 years, like it is not. It is much cheaper. And often the brands when they're designing the jeans don't even know what fabric they're going to get from the factories.
Like it's all happening in these like top level deals that the designers are like hoping it will be something really good, but they're not getting that much control over it once it actually goes to manufacturing. And I do think that adding stretch to jeans makes them more susceptible to wear out, right? Yeah, I mean, that's the other really big change is we didn't have stretch jeans in the 90s. And now we do. And it's been like both a blessing and a curse. I mean, it makes jeans more wearable.
Like you can breathe in them because a non-stretch pair of jeans, like I actually like flinch thinking about putting that on my body. But it also means they're going to stretch out faster. And the percentage of elastic that goes into the jeans really impacts this. Yeah. And the hard thing too is that like you can't even think about like patching.
You know, I'm thinking of like what I would feel like to have a patch in that inner thigh region where my jeans always rub off like no, no, that would be terrible. Yeah. And the weight of this jeans is differently. It wouldn't hold a patch this evening. No. It's a lot thinner than they used to be. They're not going to like take a patch. I do still wear my jeans in need of patching around the house. Like I don't care who cares. I'm sure. Yeah. Like the gardening can see my inner thigh.
That's great. Yeah. I can enjoy that. Okay, we're going to pair the next two questions about the quality of cheap jeans versus expensive jeans. The first question comes from today. Am I dreaming or did the quality of old Navy jeans an absolute staple for years plummet almost overnight? The reasonable jump seems to be to made well or Abercrombie for women's jeans these days, but $40 for old Navy to $128 for made well is a massive leap.
Are there actually quality jeans out there that are more reasonably priced or leaning into the why is everything so expensive right now question? Is this just what we can expect to be paying for decent denim? And lastly, are my aspirational cool girl jeans from air anything more special or is the $250 just for the label?
And then here's Sarah. Katie Storino, who's an influencer, a plus size influencer, inspired me to look at quote unquote cheaper brands of denim because she said there is no longer a big difference in quality and style between lower price points and higher and denim. So I tried a few examples from old Navy and Torrid and was shocked to find that I agreed. There is definitely room to improve in terms of style, but I could find really cute pairs of jeans that were only about 30 bucks.
And these have far outlasted some of my much more expensive pairs from brands like made well and good American. What is going on? Is this only true for plus size jeans and if so, why? So some of this is related to the episode that we did with Amanda Moll about why closed sec right now. And you mentioned this earlier about like international agreements on standards for fabric quality and all this sort of thing.
But I really loved your discussion of cheap jeans versus expensive jeans when you did jeans science. So what is your thinking here? I mean, I don't think there is a huge difference at all. I tried, I mean, I bought a $300 pair of jeans during that experiment. They were just as disappointing as the $128 made wells as the $40, you know, like all the way down. And I think I can't quite answer if it's true for non-plus sizes because I am plus size and that's what I was trying.
That's really where my focus was. But it is 100% true for plus sizes. And the reason is brands like Made Well and the one that she mentioned air, they don't know how to design jeans for plus size bodies. So what they're doing is taking their fit model who is a size 8 probably, like they tend to do middle of the straight size range and then they measure everything on this fit model.
And then they just have these charts where they're like, well, a size 10 will be 2 inches bigger and a size 12 will be 4 inches bigger and so on and so on. And fat bodies don't just like, we're not a thin body that's just been stretched to inches in every direction. That's not actually how bodies work. Right. And no one would say like, oh, you should do the inverse. Let's have it fit in on a plus size model and then to get to a size 4, let's just like reduce. Right.
Nobody's taking a size 18 and then just like shaving it down. That's not how it should work. Yeah, either way. Yeah. So, I mean, very often the cool girl brands that primarily make straight sizes when they add the plus sizes, all they do is this like gradation thing where they just kind of stretch out the pattern. It gets wildly distorted and it doesn't fit anybody's bodies. The brands that do really invest in plus sizes are brands like old Navy. I mean, it's complicated.
They haven't done a perfect job by any means. But old Navy knows that the majority of their customers wear plus sizes. And so they probably do have a dedicated plus size fit model who's probably an 18 who then they're like scaling it down a little bit for the 16, 14 and then up for the, you know, up to size 30 if they go that big. Maybe they'll maybe only go to 26. Anyway. So, at least there's like a hope that the plus size gene will actually work for you.
But really what it comes down to is what I think all genes brands should be doing is showing us their fit model and giving us her measurements and then you should only buy genes from the brands that have a fit model with your measurements. Like the reason I can wear universal standard genes is because I'm a size 18 and their fit model is a size 18. And our measurements are probably not identical, but it's like the closest I can get.
So that's some intel that the brands obviously don't advertise and that's a big reason why yeah, for plus sizes there will be you will often find better genes at cheaper prices. Don't you think that like if people have the means they would want to spend more money on a company that has a fit model that is their size, right? Like, I mean, I would and I do want to do that, but I can't. I think the other thing that's going on though is the anti-fat bias in fashion is so endemic and so intense.
A lot of brands don't think that their thin customers want to shop at a store that fat people buy clothes from. This is a very real bias. And this is why they don't put the plus sizes in stores. This is why they shove them in the back corner of like a different floor of the department store. Yeah. Like they really don't think thin customers will think their brand is cool if they're fitting fat bodies. So that's a big piece of it where they just aren't focusing here. It's an afterthought.
And though it's the majority of people and even though plenty of plus size women have lots of money to spend on jeans. Like, it's just not where their focus is and so they don't do it well. And then when they don't do it well, their plus size line doesn't sell well because they did a bad job. Right. And they're like, well, there must not be a market. Exactly.
And so the only way they can make money on plus sizes because they're trapped in this is to occasionally, this is what all Navy does every few years be like, we get it. You need plus size clothes. We're doing a great job. And we're totally overhauling everything. Here's an amazing plus size collection. And then because they didn't do a good job on it, it doesn't sell and they just quietly pull it out of storage six months later.
But they get that press and that goodwill of like, oh, they're trying. But they're not delivering. Right. I think you're totally right that like there are bad jeans at every price point and there are good jeans at every price point. And so much of the game is like trying on a lot of different ones to figure out which ones work for you. And it might be old Navy jeans and it might be like my standard during the pandemic were these AG straight leg jeans.
And I would buy them when they would go on sale once a year. And I just bought the same jean every year for like three or four years. Part of the reason I liked them was because the denim was thicker and they didn't wear out as fast. But I don't think it's necessary that like I've bought I've bought expensive like mother jeans that stretch out and that like fit me poorly.
And I should have just bought I think I could have spent $30 for a pair of jeans that looked exactly the same that also stretched out and fit me poorly. So it's the $300 price tag is really they're pricing it at that point to convince you that it is like it's really part of the marketing that they're choosing a high end price. It's not really indicative of the quality of the garment at all.
Yeah. Okay. So if you're going into the ask and anything part of the show getting into jeans feelings and jeans advice. If you want some brand recommendations, if you want advice on shoes, if you want a pep talk for letting co of jeans, this is for you. And just a reminder that if you're not a paid subscriber, you normally wouldn't even get to hear this part of the show.
So if you listen to the next 25 minutes and feel like you got something out of it, head over to culturestudypod.substac.com and become a paid subscriber. So you don't miss any of our future gems of advice. Okay. So this first feelings question comes from someone also named Ann. Maybe a dumb question, but why am I so obsessed with finding jeans that fit my body?
I think I just don't have a jeans shaped body, but I can't seem to stop trying them on and then rejecting them and when I don't look like the correct image of a lady in jeans in my head, why can't I give up on this? Is this the same thing that makes me cry as Super Bowl truck commercials, despite being fervently anti-truck? Oh. This is like, it swimsuit season because everyone has a swimsuit body because you have a body in a swimsuit kind of thing.
Yeah. You have a jeans body if you like to wear jeans. Yes. Again, this is not to be very repetitive, but this is because the lady in jeans in your head is probably a thin person, a person with a very flat stomach, minimal hips, like a shape that maybe does not match your own shape. And so that's why this feels so hard because you're actually shopping for the body underneath the jeans. Yeah. Yeah, you can't shop for like, you can't shop for bodies.
You can't shop for, I mean, there's a lot of things in society that convince us that we can. Yeah. Yeah. But we can't. We're definition of like what looks good and what is attractive and that is deep work. But you can really get to a place. And some of it is like, you just have to wear the thing. There's like a little bit of like exposure therapy we need to do. Yeah. You know, I was really having a hard time transitioning from skinny jeans to straight leg or baguier jeans.
And I knew it was my internalized anti-fatness. I knew it was because I have this idea in my head. I am a fat person who carries most of her weight in her middle. So my legs are slimmer. And so I had this idea that skinny jeans was like highlighting my quote, best part. And so like, how would I go to a bigger jean? I would just look bigger all over like this. To be clear, that's a very anti-fat way to say it. But that is the narrative that was in my brain.
And my friend, Dacey Glaspy, said to me like, just wear the jeans every day for a week. And you know, I did that. And then I was like, oh, I look adorable. Like, I was able to totally adjust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the funny thing is I had had to do the same thing for skinny leg jeans when that trend first came in. Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh. We were like, oh no, it's like ice cream cone bodies. Like, it felt so weird. So weird. So weird to give up into the legs and go to skinny jeans.
That was a whole adjustment process we had to do. And I was straight-size then. And it was still really hard. I felt like, oh no, I look too top heavy. I look all this. You know, it's like so weird to show ankle and really be totally like, there's so tight on my calves. Yeah. So it is about saying like, if you really want, like, first of all, jeans are optional. You can just decide they're not for you and that's fine. But if you're like, no, this would be a useful item of clothing.
And I want to wear this. And I this style I like, like, you have to just put it on your body and get used to the fact that your body doesn't look like jeans the way the made well model looks in her jeans, but you are still a totally valid expression of jeans wearing. I will say that your newsletter has been incredibly helpful for me and unpacking a lot of this stuff and doing, like you said, the deep work. And also challenging even that idea of flattering.
Like I remember this so vividly, it must have been like four years ago. I said something, this is on Twitter when we all used to be on Twitter more. I said something to the effect of like, I don't like this item of clothing. I can't remember what it is because it's not flattering on my body. And someone on Twitter was like, you know, push back on that idea. It was like flattering is just anti-entity. Yeah. And I was like, you know, like, thin enough in this.
Right. And I said like, no, it just means my body, you know, like try to personalize and be like, I just don't like how it looks on my body. When really exactly what you're saying is that like when we say flattering, we mean it makes me look skinnier. Yeah. And how much work to let go of whatever story we've been telling ourselves about what flattering actually means and really examine that. It's a hard work. But I think it's really hard work. And it's really like it's deeper than all of this.
It's about realizing you don't have to dress for the male gaze anymore. Yeah. It's like about realizing that your body belongs to you. I mean, I really love how Emma Coppoli-Eisenberg, the novelist, her novelist called Housemates. I really love how she talks about front fasces and about dressing for the female gaze or dressing for yourself. And like Emma is a fat person who's wearing like big dresses and bright colors and like, you know, stuff that would code unflattering for sure. Right.
And she looks amazing. And it's really liberated me a little bit to be like, yeah, I don't like this idea I have of like making that looking flattering is like making me take up as little space as possible. Right. That's actually deeply uncomfortable. And so it's not if we're going to consider flattering like the way it should be defined which is like you look like your best self. I don't look like my best self when I'm trying to shrink myself as much as possible.
I look like my best self when I'm wearing a color that makes me happy when I'm wearing fabrics that feel good on my body when I can breathe because my jeans are not compressing internal organs. Like all of that should be accessible to all of us. So this next question has a little bit of the same, but also she's asking for some recommendations that I think that we can maybe help with. This is from Jenny. Should I give up on jeans as a nearly 46 year old woman?
I want to wear jeans, but since COVID, I also hate hard pants. Relatedly, apparently skinny jeans, problematic, diet culture, tingeed language, not with standing are no longer okay. So what in the world do I wear instead? Can I please have a pair of forever jeans? Are there cigarette pants, but jeans? Can I just be done with shopping for jeans and look chic and not worry anymore about how on trend or not I am? Please help. Quitting jeans is a very real possibility if this continues.
So I notice in a lot of questions, we get this like, can I do this with jeans? And the askers also reveal their ages? So this kind of circle is back to something that we've been talking about, but I do think that there's so much like, especially for people in their late 30s or early 40s, later 40s, what is my style now? Trying to figure that out. Yeah, I think you absolutely can quit jeans. I have for sure quit them for the summer anyway.
And I was thinking the other day like I always quit them in the summer and I'm always so relieved. I'm always like, all right, done with jeans for months. And then it's like, well then why do I bring them back in September? It's just because of their supposed utility. You really think that's it. Yeah, and again, I think it's like the fall fashion, like fall fashion is very jeans heavy. Like, once you start thinking about fall clothes, like somehow jeans feel necessary.
And so it is about redefining that for ourselves. It's about shifting your focus to prioritize comfort of your body more than matching up to an aesthetic. And like you have to just give fewer facts, I think. You have to be like, yeah, I'm 46 and it's okay that I don't look 22 in these jeans. Like, yeah, we're in, you know, because I'm not wearing jeans. Like, you have to be ready to kind of embrace where you are. And that is not something that's easy to do.
Because yeah, we're embracing a layer of invisibility by admitting that this body we're in now, that doesn't feel good to try to, you know, try to fight for that. I also think there's an element to, of trying to let go, not just of like the male gaze and dressing for the male gaze, but also sometimes dressing for your, like, your friends. Because at least for me, like my friends, we've been friends since college, right? And like so often in our lives, we all had the same type of jeans.
We all had like North Face jackets, you know what I mean? Like there was very much that like, oh, I like that. I want to get that like trying to match fashion. And I have been really interested to watch my own reactions as we've developed more of our own taste through our 30s and our 40s. And instead of like, oh, I want to dress exactly like you. How do you let go of that feeling? Like, I want to dress like me. What is that? What does that even look like? I know.
And there's also this thing of like certain social groups, in forced, certain norms, in certain body norms. Yeah. And so if you want to make a shift aesthetically that will reveal to the world that you are bigger than you were in college, you know, or what I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it feels like almost like a coming out of sorts, like that you're going to like show up at this barbecue or the dinner party and you're not going to be presenting your body according to the social norms in rules of that social circle. Yeah. And that can be really scary. And I have definitely done that and been aware of like, that's probably my personal biggest fashion hang up and it stems from like, feeling like I didn't know what the cool thing was to wear in like fifth grade.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's like deep. It's like all, we're all in the middle school cafeteria again. Yeah. And wanting to fit in. And so what's helped me is like, yes, figuring out one or two outfits, whether it's jeans, not jeans, that I always feel like good and comfortable in that I'm like, I can put this on and show up in whatever this situation is and feel like this is how I want to present myself and I'm okay that it doesn't match up with what everyone else is doing.
But finding those outfits is a lot of work. I think that this person should do what we suggest, like do exposure therapy and get a couple of different styles of jeans. And they could be depending on their size, like there are a lot of places that are carrying a lot of different styles right now. I actually noticed the gap has like a ton of wider leg right now. Well, Navy has a ton, made well have some and just like wear them around and see which ones like feel fun to you. That's what I would do.
And on her question about cigarette pants, I will say universal standard makes, I'm going to say it wrong, but I say pot pant. I don't know if it's supposed to be like pot pant. I always say potty, that's just like panties. I can't be right. The universal standard morrow pot pant is like a, it's made of a pot fabric, which is like a very thick stretchy fabric, but not polyester. Like it's a nice fabric and it has like a very tapered cigarette pant silhouette with that.
And I always keep those in my closet for like, and I buy them in whatever size I need per season because they are just like a set to good. Like I don't have to think about my pants. They have an elastic waist. They're very comfortable, but they are tailored and professional feeling. I would recommend checking that out. So I think trial of those, and if you don't like any of those, like bi-geans, who care, like bi-as and BYE, you don't have to, you can wear cool like, Palazzo pants are in again.
You can be in your Mumu, Yara. I know. And Palazzo pants kind of never went out. Like, yeah, you can always pull off a quirky style like that. And not wear it. Yeah, but whether it's on trend or not. Coastal grandma always. For maybe a little more difficult in the winter, but I guess you just have to go to a more climate. The next question about jeans feeling comes from Sammy. Is my quest to find the perfect pair of jeans actually just diet culture?
I'm starting to think that these jeans don't exist. These never feel quite right lately. Maybe that's because my body is different and bigger since having a baby a few years ago, and I'm still dealing with that. Maybe because styles keep changing. Maybe because my body is still changing. I dream of being done buying jeans, but I'm afraid that's never going to happen.
I've started to go hard on thrifting instead of buying new partially because it takes the sting out of the disappointment when something isn't perfect. And it makes it way easier to move on from jeans that aren't the one, but I still catch myself thinking there are jeans out there that will be magical and I just haven't found them yet. Do I need to book a trip to Boulder, Colorado to spend $295 on curated vintage denim? Or do I just need to relax?
So I feel like you have a very simple answer to this one. Jeans is diet culture. Yes. Yes. The quest for the perfect jeans is the quest for diet culture. I love that framing so much. I was like, why didn't I write that essay with that? Yeah, no, don't go to Colorado. Don't spend $300. The only way to be done buying jeans is to decide you're like the last question and you're just not going to wear jeans anymore.
If you want to wear jeans, you're going to be buying new jeans every year until you die because your body will always change. The styles will always change. They will always fall apart or wear out or stretch out. They are the epitome of a clothing item designed to keep you perpetually chasing us. Yeah. And she even puts it in the phrasing. She says, I still catch myself thinking there are jeans out there that will be magical and I still haven't found them yet.
That idea that we can somehow find the thing that fixes our lives. Part of that is capitalist culture. But part of that I think is very oriented towards women and their bodies and beauty and all that sort of thing. If you just find that thing, we have to keep spending so much energy and time to find the thing that will fix us. I mean, yeah, put the word diet in that sentence instead of jeans. Is the perfect diet out there? Will I finally lose the weight? It's the same thing.
And that answers that question. Okay, we did it. This is going to be a fun one. This is a specific advice request from Michelle. Okay, but what shoes do I wear with wider leg jeans? I'm all for relinquishing the chokehold that Skinny jeans had on my lower half from 2007 to 2020. But I have no idea how to style looser fitting jeans without just looking silly. Do I need to be thinking more about my socks? Do I just need to get chunky with it?
Help. So you have had some solutions that I've admired a lot. Can you talk about what you've been trying? Okay. I think the key to this, honestly, is to live in a climate like California. 100%. There's no draft. Because the key to this is visible ankles. Yeah. That's what it comes down to. Yeah. And honestly, if you really drill into it, it's what we were talking about before, right? It's about the slender body under the baggy fabric. Yes. So it's like showing our ankles to show.
Slender and we have like a little bit of fitness in there. And, you know, I can be angry about that intellectually and as a fat activist. And also, this is how I wear these jeans is yes, it's with a sneaker without socks, like a cute, you know, they had or whatever, like vintagey kind of sneaker. It's with a sandal or a booty that like the gene can float above. But it really comes down to like having a few inches of visible ankle. We've done clogs so too. Clogs too, but it's the same thing.
Yeah. The clogs are giving you visible ankle. Yeah. No, I love clogs with jeans, with baggy jeans, but it's still giving you that kind of contrast moment. This is really, really, really hard in the Pacific Northwest. Yeah, it's hard everywhere except Southern California. You think it's great for me in January and the Hudson Valley? I want to show my ankles when it's negative two outside.
Well, and the great thing about skinny or even straight jeans is that you could tuck them into your rain boots or your snow boots. And like the outfit would still work. You were just wearing rain boots or snow boots. And like I have to wear rain boots like six months out of the year. I also live on an island where like if you wear like a cute little heel, people are like what's happening? What's happening? Yeah. Which is something I have to battle.
And there's actually, there's this woman on the island who has like an Instagram account that is just her, she's in her I think 80s and she just dresses up in her most fabulous clothes and like does like little videos of herself and her lawn and it is incredible. Oh, that's so sweet. That's how I'm going to be. I'm going to be like here's all of my incredible clothing when I'm 80. I'm just wearing it in my garden.
Yeah. But I'm still, I'm still struggling like I have some combat boots that kind of work. But not quite. I mean, again, if we look to the view of they're showing their socks. So then that's very confusing. Yes. Is that Gen Z has really doing something very different with socks. Now doing the no show sock is like a millennial like has been moment. Right. And that was upsetting for me to learn from TikTok.
So. And the other thing about these, so I've the wide leg that I've tried have all been slightly cropped just slightly, right? Yeah. I think that is important. But there are the kinds that actually go all the way down the way that we. The way we dragged them around. Right. And you have to wear a heel. Yeah. Because of the way you're dragging your pants around like becoming a mobility issue. Like a fire. And so I think with those clog looks really nice.
Yes. And that's what I actually, I would wear a clog, not a heeled clog, but I would wear like my first pair of like wide leg jeans from 10th grade. I would wear clogs with them. Yeah. I love that. But no, what we all do in the winter, I don't know. I mean, that's when I do bring out the emotional sports, kidney jeans, because they just, where I switch to joggers, like I just don't know what to do with the wide leg jeans. And it is a conspiracy put out by a big California, I think.
Probably the tourism boards behind it. I don't know. We can uncover. I think it's big California. And New York, where you only have to, like if you live in Manhattan and you work in Manhattan and you only have to go to blocks to go to your job and then you can wear whatever fabulous shoes that you want. Yes. I mean, even if you live like I live in a very car heavy area. And it is true.
Like, even though I live in a place with a very cold winter, I don't wear my winter coat a lot because I'm like getting in my car from my attached garage and then like running across the grocery store parking lot. This is a way to find a cool person. And the norms and the Pacific Northwest are that you don't use an umbrella. You just put up your rain coat hood. Yeah. But then like your feet, an umbrella at least helps a little bit with like your feet not getting this way.
Yeah, not that I'm cold, I'm cold. Yeah, so you're just going to be cold. And you know what, if you don't want to make that sacrifice for a fashion, there are many other options. Yeah, you don't have to. Okay. So last question comes from Paige. I'm under 554 and I wear a size 1618. So I am what folks have always called short wasted. And so even when I find a link of jeans that will fit, the jeans can often sag. And there's a gap where my thighs touch.
So I'm constantly fighting thigh rub even with my jeans. I'm constantly tugging up the jeans and I am looking for a brand or style option. Thank you. All right, Virginia, do you have any advice here? This is a very, I feel her. I'm not short. I'm 55. So I'm like, you know, average height, but I am short wasted. And I also get the like your jeans sort of start to like, they like get stuck to your thighs and like, like, because they're falling down, but they don't fall all the way down.
They kind of get caught there. It's, yeah, there's a whole thing that happens with your underwear. I mean, it is. I'm sure. And you know what? A lot of millennials are still wearing thongs because. I mean, I'm sorry, I'm not about that life. I love that either, but I cannot wear a thong, but it does mean I'm often like, well, my underwear is like basically around my knees now in this period of time. This is a true story. Ask me, this is my trauma. Ask me.
Um, so I would look at brands like Universal Standard, which is doing a really good job cutting for different body shapes. Like they are not only cutting for the size eight thin person. So I have had some good luck with their again, their elastic waist skinny jeans. I think they call it comfort denim, might work better for you. Um, Torrid also makes a gene, um, linking on the name of it, but it's a gene that they made the waist wider than the hips.
Mm. Because, you know, most women's clothes are assuming you have a smaller waist than your hips, like the more hourglass shape. And if you are not that shape, which I am not, it is helpful to have like sometimes men's is another option. But with the short length, you may have fewer options. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you need jeans that are, and I so I would really look at size, like look at the measurements.
And if they're showing like a really big hip to waist ratio where they're expecting the hips to be like 10 inches bigger than the waist, like you know, that's not going to work for you. But if you see a closer ratio, it may be a better fit. Is there any style that you think she should try? I do think this is where skinny jeans are particularly problematic because in addition to your waist falling down, your calves are then like, sectioned. And so you really get stuck.
You're really like, it's like those finger traps. Yes. Can't get out either at. So I think a straight leg, I have found freedom in a straight leg or I'm saying a barrel pant. And so I use the footwork. Barrel. And then stovepipe, which was what we used to call it. No barrel pants are like really rounded. Oh. They're like, they're not stoves. Oh, like barrel like round. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the whole leg. It's like you're kind of like a, right? And stovepipe is more like flat.
Yes. Yes. I don't know if stovepipe would work for her. But I think you want to look for jeans that don't cling to your thighs. Yeah. And because then you will have more room for the situation. And there's a whole polarized conversation about belts. I don't belt. But, you know, there's these elastic belts on Amazon that are pretty cheap that some people with our body tape really like for sort of like cementing your jeans in place. That is a thought you can experiment with. Fascinating belts.
I cannot. I mean, no. They're not for me. It's too traumatic. But there is this whole thing where, because also if you have like a more functional belt that's not cute, then you can't tuck. And if you wanted to do a millennial tuck, but then I've like tucked without a belt. And people are like, close my mind that you would tuck a shirt in without a belt. So I don't know. People have strong feelings on this topic. Then you're right. We can do another episode about belts.
I can't believe the things that people put in our DMs. I know. I can't believe Virginia. Thank you so much for coming. I really, really strongly encourage anyone who is listening to check out Jean Science at Burnt Toast. It is a whole series and will blow your mind. Virginia, where can people find you on the internet if they want to hear more from you? I mean, Burnt Toast is the main place for GeniusHoleSmouth.substack.com.
The Burnt Toast podcast is everywhere wherever you're listening to this podcast. And then I am on Instagram at V underscore SoulSmouth. Like pretty lately these days, but you know, our outfits are there too. They're there for me to... Yes, I do put outfits there. I feel like that's some public service I can do. I'm showing some small fat fashion for her. Oh, and tell us about the new collaboration.
Oh, yes. And so Burnt Toast, we now have a sister publication, which is run by my podcast co-host Corinne Fay, who produces Burnt Toast with me. She is writing Big Undies, which is... If you liked this conversation today, like come join us on Big Undies because Corinne is writing all about clothes. She's doing style interviews with folks. We definitely do a lot of plus size fashion rags there. And like she just did a whole piece about like why shorts are so hard, all that kind of stuff.
So that's at Big Undies.substack.com. She tried this swim romper. This swim romper. Like she is doing some bold journalists. That is brave. And she was like, why does it have pockets? And nobody knows what would you put in a swimsuit pocket? We can't explain it. Goggles. A mystery that will play us. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was a blast. Thank you so much for listening to The Culture Study Podcast. The full version of today's episode is free for everyone.
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Is there one magic gene to roll them all? Have you said farewell to genes? Good for you. The Culture Study Podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson and Melody Raoul. Our music is by Pawnee Timber. And you can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodius 47 and the show at CultureStudypod.