Tinfoil Tales - The Red Grid Mark Phenomenon Explained

with me. One is a researcher who has been studying the dream aspect to it, and the other one is an actual experiencer and he was one of the first interviews I'd ever conducted. Four ten foil Tells. It's definitely an interesting topic, one of the things that kind of got me interested in this whole podcasting thing and the phenomena in general. So I'm really looking forward for you

guys to check it out. And if you're a fan of ten foil Tals, make sure to follow ten foil Tells wherever you listen to Cult of Conspiracy, So either on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whichever program you're using to listen to podcast at, make sure to follow me there. I have been doing a new show with my friend ed Corilla every Thursday night live at nine pm Eastern Standard Time on YouTube called Seam Sus. We talk about all the weird conspiracies and things going on in the world

and current events. If you're a fan of stuff like that, you may check out the tenfoil Tel's YouTube page. Again, that's every Thursday night at nine pm Eastern Standard time. You can also find seam Sus wherever you listen to podcast at just look for seam Sus and you can like and subscribe there too. You can also follow me around on social media Facebook and Instagram. There is an x as well, also a TikTok. I am currently finishing

up my documentary, The Missisinobal Triangle. It should be available on certain platforms here in the near future. I will make sure to let everyone know that's interested in all the weird phenomena that goes on around here in my local area when that becomes a But on that note, we're going to jump into the conversations that I had with these fellas and I really hope you guys enjoy it. I like to take the time today welcome my guests to the show justin thanks for coming on here and

talking with me about this. It's definitely something that I've just kind of stumbled across and find very interesting and figured started digging into it.

there to make this happen. I was like, but when you start messing with kids, that's where I'm like, all right, kind of are the parents doing something really going on? It's like, are you really crossing that line?

analysis of them as well. Did you sit on a bench? What fabrics do you have? But once you kind of dig deeper into this phenomenon, you realize that it's remarkably consistent, and it displays an intelligence, especially for people to get the patterns on repeat, like myself, and you can start to predict when you're going to get them, which is really strange. And another interesting thing about the phenomenon is

how many people get the exact same marks. So one of the most common ones you'll see is women, mostly women, frequently get a mark on their left wrist. So if you go through the group and you take a look, you'll see dozens and dozens of people reporting the exact same mark on their left wrist and they don't know how it got there.

report having. I've never had them. But what's weird about the strange dreams is everybody will report that the subject of the dream has something to do with a strange visitor. So it might be an object, a relative that has passed on, but it's always like some sort of visitor. But back to the topic of it being in the skin. That is really interesting when you see it, like you said, on somebody's face, right, these pressure marks, how do they

get there on people's faces? And then why do they happen repetitively in these same exact areas.

believe it was twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen. I was at my friend's house and she said, what is on your neck? And I had on my left shoulder going all the way over the trap muscle and kind of down my back in a grady, and I had these large, probably half inch red dots and they were going up my neck, totally observable to anybody looking at me, and they seemed to have just suddenly showed up. So my friend said, what the heck is that? And I said, I have no idea. I don't know where it came

from or what happened. So that was the first time I ever got the marks, and I googled them, and at that time there were maybe a handful of pictures of other people's red grid marks, which is what I stumbled upon. And there wasn't really anything, no communities, nothing on the internet about it at that time, just a

sort of strange four or five cases. So as the years went on, I kept getting them, and my girlfriend would notice them on my back, and they moved from my shoulder and became consistent on my back, and I've had really undeniable patterns, like I had dots running all the way down my spine, which and they were very very dark, So it's not something that I slept on

or sat on a bench. But I started to get a couple of times a year, and I started to notice that I got them on the last Saturday in May, so right as the last Saturday in May, it would occur. It didn't matter what time I would go to sleep, or if I would try to record it or whatever,

you wouldn't get anything. But when I would go to sleep, I would get a mark on my back, so it would be I remember back then it was like hexagons or just patches of the red grid marks on the top left of my back or the lower right, or sometimes both. And this became so consistent that I knew

exactly when I was going to get the marks. Even if you look up in the group some of my posts, I'll say, hey, it's this time of year again, We're going to see if it shows up, And of course a lot of the time it does, even though recently it stopped and the pattern changed, which is interesting. But for years I was able to predict when it would

show up. And then I started to find other people in the group since I started it, and people started to snowball in that had the same things happening to them. They would get it either once a month in the exact same spots or in similar spots, or they would get it consistently, and they would never be able to predict when it was happening, but they would know they

would get it again. So that's been my journey so far with it, besides just starting the group and kind of collecting massive amounts of data to see what's going on. But from my point of view, it's ex I mean, it may not be supernatural, right, but it's definitely a phenomenon that's happening. And it's unrelated to material objects in my opinion, because my habits are exactly the same. I'll go someplace new, I'll go on a vacation, I'll still

get the marks. They'll be extremely present and like down my spine, even if I'm going to the beach. So it doesn't seem like it's trying to be secretive. But it's also displaying really strong characteristics of intelligent timing, which is the most baffling thing, or intelligent placement, like on the left wrist over and over again.

a diagnosis. But yeah, yeah, great sense of humor there from that doctor. But that seems to be the general consensus is nobody really knows what it is, but it's not a problem because it never produces pain, scratchiness, swelling, anything like that.

But if I had to hypothesize, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and looking at, you know, the effects, but I would think that it's some sort of long range radiation based or laser or some sort of technology that's radiation based. And I'm guessing, but I think that it's some sort of like communicative device. Whether it's taking data from the cells that it's interacting with or altering data, I don't know, but it seems like it would be a long range biopsy device if I

had to guess. But hey, prove me wrong. That's what I'm always saying in the group. I would love to hear contrasting hypothesis is, but it's for me that's kind of the box that it sits in.

right now to say what his hypothesis is. He said that his theory is there like a leftover burn from lying on a sterile tables, keeping self clean by use some sort of energy. If one part of your body presses too much on an area or stays that way, it too can get like a small burn pattern.

last two years. And the data is really cool because some of the stuff that it shows is almost half, well a little bit less than half of the marks are probably happening during the daytime, which means that there's no break in time, there's no missing time, there's no there does doesn't seem to be any surface Like I'm pretty well familiar with aduction phenomenon right, missing time, seeing UFOs, visitations,

strange dreams, stuff like that. And I think the only box that checks is strange dreams because they appeared during the daytime or while people are awake, not rarely, but enough for us to get a picture of what it looks like. So one woman reported that she was driving down the road at night and her left hand you get this left hand again, started intensely burning and then just stopped and she was like, what in the world.

And she was driving at night, so she couldn't really see anything, but she pulled over when she got to the next shopping center gas station and turned on the lights, and she had the left wrist red gridmark on her hand. So there's also been a video of one showing up and that was really interesting because you could clearly see she didn't report burning, but you could see raised lines,

like straight lines that formed in the skin. And believe it or not, this is in the exact same place on the left hand, the left wrist, and those straight lines like almost like veins in rows, lifted up out of her skin just a little bit like it was swelling, and then when it went back down she had the red grid mark pattern on her left wrist, So that to me shows me that I don't think it's an

abduction related phenomenon. But you know, if extraterrestrials are interested in stuff like implants, and they're interested in biometric data, and this may be another way of obtaining it, who knows.

digital device around like for this marks show up. Sometimes I'm thinking maybe like it's an electronic even they claim some of these films can put off like the heat from a phone or something, but I don't see how it would be a grid pattern or something like that.

that do wear anything and then get the mark. Most of people are like, well, I don't wear anything on that wrist, But don't let me dissuade you into thinking that the left wrist mark is the average, because it's not the data from our survey shows that overwhelmingly the average red grid mark happens in June most of the time, and it's on the upper or lower back, so that's where most of them are happening, probably like fifty to

sixty percent of them. And the left grid mark or the left wrist one just I find really fascinating because it's a clear evidence that they use the exact same spot over and over again. And it's not like it's just randomly somewhere on the left wrist. It's kind of on the right side of the left wrist, extending up towards the index finger. And I'm sure you've seen the

pictures in the group, but that's its exact placement. And you get so many people that get this mark, it's almost like a priority item for them to get it in that exact spot.

the world. But again, it's like, yeah, that's nowhere near me or any of these people that are spread out all across the world, So it can't possibly be that happening over and over and over again. It's just no matter what, I haven't seen a good explanation for it yet, because no matter what explanation you have for it, you

can rotate and get a different element. But what about the intelligent timing every year That doesn't explain the caterpillar hypothesis or you know, pressure from a bench or something doesn't explain the intelligent timing or the consistent placements. So I think whatever it is really doesn't want to be identified at all. And I think it makes me think because of the consistent timing and the complex shapes, that

there's some purpose behind it. It's not accidental or fungal but that comes out of looking at probably thousands of cases at this point. Now, here's another interesting thing that just occurred to me that shows me that it's not an accident. So at times you can clearly see the shape of the mark, and you can clearly see that

it was incompletely applied. So you'll have a circle, right is the intention of the mark with a dot pattern in the middle, and you'll see that they got the angle wrong or something, and so you only get half of the circle. And what they'll do if that happens is they reapply it and then you get the full circle. So to me, it shows that there can be error in application, which means that there is an intended application

of this mark. If it was spreading from a fungal phenomenon, it wouldn't have to reapply itself twice and then shift over a little bit so it got the complete mark. It's definitely, no matter what way you look at it, artificial in origin in my opinion.

gonna put their kid on against a drain? You know, like that's I mean.

the group. So that's usually the pipeline by which it happens if somebody is genuinely interested, and they typically don't find the phenomenon unless they're having to google red grid marks on skin or something like that.

I was like, it's not a grid pattery they have like, but that's very strange that she has no idea what it is and it looks like it's scraped and like her skid's like peeled on some of the stuff, and she has no idea what it's from. I was like, well, did you do something to school? She's like, no, I.

I had a pleasant interaction with it. I had some good phenomenon happen. But when I left the shed and my temple shed set up and I went back insaiw It, I took off my shirt to get in the shower and I had like three long claw marks down my back and it was inflamed, like beneath the skin. But it didn't hurt and I didn't ram into anything and drag it all up my back. So I've definitely seen those marks before, and they're pretty interesting how they just

randomly appear in very specific shapes. Maybe some sort of spirit interaction phenomenon.

the room across from us. So we have a baby monitor up and the blind in the house or the old pull down blinds like they roll up well it unrolled, is relaying. They're like, it just shot up real quick by itself, scared the crap out of us, and where he just kind of laughed it off. And then about five minutes later, through the baby monitor, we hear the word mine, like am I n E like mine?

pussy for messing with a child. Basically said if you're going to do anything, come after me, leave my family alone, this and that, and honestly we've never had an issue since then.

about to mess with. So, yeah, you mentioned that I got a little off topic, but I felt.

you talking about? I was like, well, if you look into it, and they're like, what looks like they touched something or they got burnt by something, I was like, yeah, but it's strange to me that, Okay, say this is a man made pattern and they pressed up against it, how will they not realize that? They were like, you don't really know what you lean up against? Well, you know, burne your skin.

on the face is the most obvious one. You would think people that get it on their faces or on their foreheads would remember pushing their head for a prolonged amount of time into a gritted surface. It's just in the group, we don't really allow the discussion of that, and people are kind of critical of that sometimes, but usually it's because they have no experience at all with goodmark.

And if you're somebody that gets them constantly or your kid is constantly getting them, you know that it's not from the betting that they're sitting on or sitting on gritted or dotted benches and chairs. We just know already in our life experiences, and so we come together in that group to move forward from there, not dealing with those same arguments over and over again. But you'll get

that anytime. And I think that's why a lot of people dismiss it outright without taking a look at the sixteen thousand people that it's happening to in the red Gridmark group.

are seeing. I haven't seen it myself, so it's just kind of be taking people's word for it. But I do believe that they believe what they're seeing is true. It's true to them. So when it comes to this thing, if there's sixteen thousand people in a group, it's really hard to think there's that many people just trying to do this for something like you said, attention for what purpose a couple of.

that's unexplained, it's still a valid medical condition. You've got thousands of people that this is happening to and it only started, in my opinion, recently. It's I think within the last decade or two. As it only really started. You would think there would be a lot of capturing of it if it had been consistently happening, but maybe people just didn't report it. But it definitely seems to have been increasing in volume every year over the last wall since I've had it, definitely so decade.

reaction of people's skins. Like I know people have gotten burnt from my cell phone being in their pocket, like the phone battery melted or whatever. I was like, clearly this is not happening, because again, you got stuff on the foreheads, you got stuff on your back, You're not gonna have your phone on your back, so you can't really go that route. But I was just thinking out loud, like maybe it does have something to do with the technology we're using.

But I don't think they're related because again, the aspects of intelligent timing, and we know what people with radiation burns look like, so it can't just be a radiation burst, and we don't ever see people like around sher Nobyl when a lot of people were afflicted very fast. We never saw any dots or grids. So if it is something, it's got to be a complex interaction that we just have no idea about, or some sort of weaponization of

things that are radiation based. So I could see that more probably than I could see it being an accident, because I don't think it's an accident.

it comes from. However, there are many people who try to explain it away with either supernatural deductions or psychic deductions or conspiracy theories, and I just can't buy that because I've got so much evidence of the phenomenon happening. I don't feel like the solution is going to be a psychic cancer. But I'm happy to be wrong.

pattern on my like the pop filter on my microphone. Now, if I was to sit here and press my face against it really forcibly, for like five minutes, I'm sure i'd have a grid pattern. But to these people that have no idea where they come from, you would know if you're pressing your face up against something like this.

red grid mark. But you're right, like, nobody's gonna violently press themselves into a grated bench for forty five minutes and be like, well, that's so strange. I've got a dotted red mark in the exact same place I was violently leaning against the bench. You just would remember. And then the face ones.

my back. I mean obviously with that little pressure points, it would have been painful and I was in a bad I mean, there's nothing in there that's going to cause that. So the exceptions really help you see that it's not something material if it's on your face, if it's in a strange pattern like right down in your spine or a hugely complex pattern, like a seven sided star within a circle that's on your leg. Obviously you

would have something that matches that. And ninety nine percent of the time that's just not the case.

it's intentional. It has intelligence because it's not just some random splotches here and there, like there's some sort of intelligence behind it because it had to make it artificially, make this design.

In general, you would have to try to replicate that and it would hurt.

composed of dots. It was different. But it's just interesting to think, you know, you get the big picture of what this tool looks like when you get those marks like that, and we do see similarities other places of extraterrestrial phenomenon, it's hard to ascribe it to anything other than extraterrestrial because of the high level of technology that would be needed to make a mark. Like that on somebody over a long distance.

to it. Even though I'm not some huge podcaster with like millions of followers or anything like that little low key guy here, But I think this is definitely something that needs more attention brought to it because it is one of those phenomenons that's like, clearly there's something true behind it, something's really happening. So for people to instantly just write it off as kind of stupid in my opinion.

that's such a valuable nugget of information. And then I feel incredibly privileged to be involved in this phenomenon that just has an overwhelming amount of evidence that something genuinely mysterious is going on. And we're kind of a low key phenomenon too, So it's always a pleasure to reach out and try to explain, you know, my journey with seeing this e al from three or four pictures on the internet to sixteen hundred people that don't know what's

going on. But it's growing surely, slowly but surely. We just made a discussion and Speculation group because the rules in the group are a little too restrictive for a lot of people's tastes. They want to speculate, and so we just made a sister group so that people could kind of join in on the public discussion of what this is, because we've got enough evidence now to where

it's clearly a bona fide mysterious phenomenon. We've even got data coming out of the survey which you should take a look at in the file section of the group. A lot of fun, but no matter what, it's always it always comes back to this is just something so bizarre in its origin that none of us can fathom what it is. None of us can come up with any experiments to truly replicate the marks, and it's baffling

all the time. It never gets any better, It always gets more mysterious, even though you collect more and more data.

amounts that you would get from background radiation. So if it is radioactive, then it's not any more than the surrounding background radiation, which would be a problem if it was right, because if it was constantly blasting it with radioactive gusts, you'd probably develop a medical condition, I would think, which is something you do see sometimes in like abduction cases and stuff like that. But it doesn't seem to

be that way. There doesn't seem to be medical conditions coming from this phenomenon, and in fact, never happened to me. I mean, I'm in good health, but a lot of people have reported that they would. Not a lot, but a couple of people have reported that they would get marks on their knee and their knee would spontaneously start healing, or that they got marks during times of intense illness, like when they got COVID they would get the marks.

So I thought that was interesting. Who knows, right, if it's just a correlation or something directly related, But I get the feeling that they are interested in collecting data off of unique situations and conditions and how it relates to our biology. Probably, but that's just a complete hypothesis by anything.

the surface of the skin with no swelling. When they start off, they can be really dark red, I mean, very prominent to where obviously something has happened, and then in about two to three days, just like a sunburn or something, it would clear up. And you know, interesting

story here, maybe somebody can get something from this. But I got a red grid mark just the summer, and I was going to the beach every day, and I was trying to get my tan on because I was just trying to live more naturally and get more light. And I work right by the beach, so this was

really fun. I went out to the beach, I knew I had a red grid mark, and I still was spending about forty minutes in the sun each day getting my tan on right, And as I got a little bit sunburnt, the mark stayed around for about a week and a half. So because there was so much damage to the area, it couldn't feel that fast, and so I ended up preserving the mark for a little longer than I would have by getting a white sunburn. I thought that was kind of interesting.

different than normal. It'll just sunburn the whole skin. But it's close to wherever you get a sunburn at, like that initial irritation, or maybe where you a tattoo would come to rest in your skin. It's somewhere beneath the surface of the skin.

But no, I would imagine it's I don't know wherever the sunburn happens, because it kind of to me looks like a radiation burn. Like that's the easiest way to describe it is if you've got a radiation burn through a metal panel with dots in it, that's kind of exactly what you would have with red gridmark. But you don't get any serious symptoms like you know, pain, itching, swelling, none of that. It's perfectly calibrated.

components and people without these genetic components or whatever. I would think that if it's a biopsy device, that they're either manipulating DNA or extracting data about the physiology based

on what comes back on the device. When I was investigating red gridmark phenomenon, I had posted it in a couple of places online and I had one guy who worked with lasers, and he said, it's really interesting because it looks like a holographic diffraction of a laser, so it would create grid patterns if you difract a laser

or holographic patterns. And he said there was recently some research published where a lab had created a UV ray that could penetrate a specific layer of the skin based on how it was calibrated, and it could burn that and the theoretical application of this technology could be bringing back data on specific levels of the skin after damaging them with the laser, and you could return data somehow using that, And I posted that in the group and that kind of shaped my opinion about My guess on

the mark is that if we are kind of flirting with this technology and it's not really possible yet, you know, if there's a one hundred or two hundred year difference in technology, then you of course could biopsy sells with that, I'm sure, And that's kind of looks like what we're seeing here in my opinion, if.

to her. So we must have been on the same visitation schedule because we didn't get marks for almost a year, and then in the summer of the following year the mark started again and I would get them probably once every three weeks, but I couldn't establish any pattern. They were coming on random days and during the week. So I have one year's worth of data, but I don't

have anything to compare it to. So the last one I got, I believe, was in the middle of August, so they started really late in the beginning of July, and I had that one in late August, and that was the last one I got.

coming off of the middle of my spine. One time I had the line, But most of the time, most of the marks are on the top left of my back or on the bottom right, and sometimes I'll get them in both spots at once, but they love those spots more than others almost like that's their consistency.

that has anything to do with it. But other people have had them in just random spots, like he's at the wrist or random spot forehead, Like there's no real rhyme or reason where these are showing up at So it's again with me trying to rationalize it. It's just I can't my head around the purpose.

grooved like your ears. I think that like the application marks with the thighs and the back where they've printed it multiple times, they want a large planar surface as much as possible to reduce the amount of error that could happen with the mark, So they would never put it on something like the back of the knee where it's got too many angles going on it. Just whatever data they're looking for out of burning the skin, they're not going to get it on a big curved surface

like that. It's got to be something relatively flat, and you'll see this a lot. But take for example, the solid marks right, you can see the whole thing, and and it's usually on a pretty plane arm place like the thigh or the back, but you get a lot of them, like the one I got on my shoulder. As it moved down my back, it faded out over the curve and caused a gradient. And you'll see that a lot, like if you'll get one on your wrist. As the wrist starts to curve off to the right,

you get a gradient. Again, So it's almost it's not this way, but you could imagine it this way, like a flat piece of metal is stuck against the skin, and then the radiation shown through it. You would get that same curvature off the side of your arm or on the curve of your back if you had a metal plate pressed into your shoulder. But we know that's not happening. But that's a great way to visualize it and is pretty accurate as far as anticipating the marking that gets left behind.

top of a little off topic. But I struggle trying to comprehend that if they're able to travel trillions of miles and they get here and somehow they crash to me, like, how the hell did you travel trillions of miles and you get here and you crash out in a desert Like That's doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. And with this pattern, like if they're worried about having Oh they screwed something up, so they got to redo it in the same area because the first one didn't take.

It's like, if you're that far advanced, you can do this, you shouldn't have mistakes.

wouldn't really think much of it. But if I woke up and I have a big pattern on my back or something looks very intricate, intelligent, like not just random, it would be like, okay, well then there's something too. And that's what really has caught my attention the most is the designs on some of them, like you said, with the seven point at star and like stuff like that. To me, it's like, okay, well, this could have been someone I guess could have done it, but again, for

what purpose. There's no Oh look at me, I got attention on a Facebook group.

there's thousands of people. The real question is how many people is it happening to that have no idea that it's happening to them, because we might just be seeing the outliers.

this past summer. My wife and I got something and we have one tattoo that matches for our daughter, and the guy's like, well, what shoulder do you want to I was like, whichever shoulder that one tattoo is not on, because I couldn't even tell you what shoulder it's on it. This freakes I forgot because I don't ever see it. So if I was to have a random marking back there, I would never know.

I mean, there's no two ways about it. Everybody's gonna ask and you're just gonna have to say, I have no idea.

happening to you. Like, not everybody gets a lot of them, but I would say maybe like a quarter a quarter of us do get them constantly all the time, multiple times a year, but probably no more than like eight times a year. So you're always anticipating when's the next one gonna come, and it just becomes a party of life.

Definitely at this point, it definitely has for me. It's such a wonderful mystery to experience, and I feel I feel very gifted for even getting to see this really bizarre, strange, artificial phenomenon. But I do enjoy it definitely.

with Red Gridmark. And then the Discussion and Speculation group that we just opened up recently is open to everybody, so you can feel free to post about the subject in there without any restrictions besides basics. But Experiencers and Researchers is where the real data has happened so far, and it really shines as far as showing how real a phenomenon this is and how interesting it is.

I was really fascinated with that. My field of study and my focus of research is in ET contact and dreams. Nowadays we use the term non human intelligence rather than ET to keep the hypotheses open from just these space travelers too. They might be something else, maybe angels, maybe fairies, maybe ourselves in another dimension, that sort of thing. And I work with people directly through dreamwork and hypnosis services. So I've been focused on that for about three years

straight now, working with people with missing time. And I'm in a PhD program and instant integral Noetics Sciences, which is sort of like a update to parapsychology, and my research focus there is ET contact and dreams. So thanks for having me to talk about these fascinating phenomenon.

with the red gridmark phenomena. Justin, the moderator of the group, spoke a bit about the survey he ran in your podcast, and that survey covered about one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty experiencers of the REG gridmark phenomena, and it described its appearance, how it shows up on the body, what happens, and so we know that there are patterns to the red grid mark, and for your listeners who are unfamiliar with that, I'd recommend checking out

Justin Sanderson's interview with you. But I'll go briefly into what it is. It's it's a mark that appears on people's bodies in mysterious ways, and it's highly geometric. It's basically a grid of red dots that show up in mysterious ways, and these dots appear to be like radiation

burns or burst capillaries under the skin. Generally there is a discernible pattern that may be applied multiple times to the skin it looks like and people generally find them upon waking or they don't remember how these appear, but there are some experiencers who report seeing them appear there in daytime. And it's there's a lot of contradictory or

paradoxical characteristics of the phenomena. What those characteristics are. It is associated with entity visitation, either through a direct association with alien abduction or through strange kind of remembered or even just not necessarily remembered but intuitive dreamlike experiences of entity encounters. And these include spirits, spirit guides, ghosts, ancestors, etes,

and you know others. Let's say, and that the prevalence of people reporting these strange dreams and entity encounters appears to be more prevalent in this community of experiences than in the normal population or in other similar types of phenomena. So that's why I was really interested in it. And it's a very regular phenomenon. Thousands of people experience it.

People have gone to dermatologists. I worked with a Harvard trained plastic surgeon who experienced the mark during a brain tumor surgery and had a team of doctors look at it and they couldn't figure it out. So there's a lot of jury associated here. So I conduct a survey that that's still underway. I'll probably it'll probably run for a few more months, and then I'll summarize the data and produce a report. The other way I work with

people there's is through dreamwork and hypnosis. I've worked with red grid mark experiencers. We've gone through a regression hypnosis to understand what happens. I have a lot of thought and research around what regression hypnosis is and can do, and that's a topic we can dive into a bit later, and that that brings forward some really meaningful information for the experiencers that may or may not necessarily be relevant

to the whole community. For example, gray aliens show up in some of them, sometimes as spirits, and that sense of identification of who's doing the mark is meaningful to the experiencer, but as a community it may or may not be applicable, primarily because there may be multiple types of agents working on the other side producing this mark. The final domain of work I do with the red grid mark phenomenon is geometric analysis. So I use Euclidean

constructive geometry. This is based on ruler and compass. This is sort of like elementary geometry circles and lines and squares, and I use that type of geometry to analyze the marks and to basically count the number of dots to say this is a hexagonal grid or a square grid. And I use that process to discern or make meaning of the mark in whatever way I can. So I can say it's placed next to this birthmark in a sacred geometric proportion. I can say it's a hexagonal grid.

I can say that the mark itself is composed or must have been applied in specific ways so that I can start discerning what is how the mark is manifesting, and what we can know about it. And it turns out there's a lot we can know about the mark itself just from looking at how it appears on the body, and primarily that insight. The insight that I have is that it must be an intelligent mark maker that has some level of empathy with us in our theory of mind.

They know we are looking at it, they are aware of our intelligence and how we perceive it, and there working with us to have some level of communication. This is the This is the conclusion I'm coming to, is that the market itself is, in addition to all it could be, is some form of geometric communication from these entities to us. And that might involve communication of meaning across multiple phases of consciousness, the waking and dreaming phases.

It might involve some other mode of communication. So those three ways are how I work with a group.

the red grid mark. What does this mean? So we looked around and I had that experience of finding a prosaic explanation for this and go, oh okay. He just pressed the space into it in this really weird way. He was sort of wrestling with this shelf experience. So that was a recent experience. The anomalist body mark in association with the red grid mark is a rose. I

believe because I did a CE five style invitation. So I started when I worked with a ridmark for about a year or so, and then I realized that I personally was not afraid of the mark makers, that I was discerning a sense of communication and even humor in the marks themselves and beauty creativity. And I started seeing qualities of mind these marks that appear to be perhaps human or perhaps human like, and so I realized that perhaps they might respond to a CE five style invitation.

For those who don't know what CE five is, it was a method of human initiated contact experience popularized by doctor Stephen Greer and his documentaries like Gotten Acknowledged or Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind. These are really just it's a meditation. You use the power of my mind to set an intention and say, hey, I'm willing to have an experience of contact with these entities. You set up certain guide rails, obviously, so you don't open the

door to all source of entities. But in particular, I said, hey, red grid mark makers, I believe you're humorous, I believe you're kind. I don't believe you're harmful. You're allowed to mark my body, you know. So I offered that invitation. In About four months later, I experienced an anomalous geometric body mark I first identified as red gridmark, but immediately afterwards said no, no, no, this is absolutely not red

grid mark. But it is geometric. So I have a little bit of a sense as to what it's like to be marked with a geometric mark, but it is definitely not red gridmark.

remember what happened. I was like, everyone I talked to will say, hey, that kind of that's like bed bugs or something. I don't know. And there's a thing that happens with the conscious mind when we don't have a rational explanation, we want to shut down and not just even open up to it. So even though I experienced the body mark, even though clearly to one part of my mind it was geometric and meaningful, the other part of my mind said, no, I'll just forget about it.

And so I've had experiences all of my life with these things, but I've forgotten a lot about those experiences just because I don't have a means to make sense of them from this perspective. So in there's something called state specific memory, and this is the mechanism that causes us to remember things based on smells. Right, So there's a specific state associated with those things, like a smell

of a childhood home. If you smell something unique from there that reminds you of that place, you have much more access to memory associated with that smell. And so in the same way you know waking life. We don't have a lot of memory of these encounters, but if we start to encounter things that remind us of it, the state specific memories start coming back. This is a long way to get to the answer of probably a lot more than we expect. People are receiving these marks.

A lot of times we just understand that, hey, maybe a bed but bit or insect or hit against something. A lot of people do respond to my work because I've been posting the geometric analysis. I say, hey, there's meaning here, there's strong geommetry. It seems communicative. You can discern this meaning yourself by applying geometry to it. They go, okay, so there's something about that that gives people to respond to me, and they say, I've had these all my life.

Here's some photos like I just didn't talk about it. So I personally believe that there are at least dozens of similar body marks to what I received. And I believe I've discovered this phenomenon in so far that I've connected the dots of this type of characteristic mark, just like justin opened up the space of the red grid mark.

Researcher and Experiencer Group and there's thousands of people that are now responding, so we really just need to open up and say, hey, this is a thing that's happening. It's meaningful. We can't deduce a lot about it quite yet. We don't know what's happening. This is not self harm, this is not bed bugs. This is something anomaloust and meaningful.

And if we were to do that as a mainstream culture, I would suspect that somewhere in the range of one to five percent of people would have experienced something like that. And that's just a broad gass, so it would be not common but not rare.

back and find the other one. But someone also reached out right after the episode it aired with justin and they said what people are experiences is stick. My I'm like, that's not really the same thing, because I thought stigmata like you bleed, there's like holes and it's more like from the crucifixion of Christ. So I don't really think that's the same as the red grid marks. Red grid

mark you don't have blood or anything like that. They're literally just with these markings on your body that you don't necessarily feel or anything like that.

of light at him and then he gets the stigmata. It happens. Stigmata has happened since then, and then before then there was there are accounts of body marks in association with fairies and witches generally is where there's a lot of a lot more documentation that goes back hundreds of years. And the question for me is if these

are the same phenomena are different. If they're the same phenomena, something's happening within the physical body that is almost psychosomatic, and it's responding to a spiritual template or religious templates. So because the stigmatic experiencers are religious and use the iconography of Christ on the cross, they receive the holes,

holes in the hand, or wrists that are bloody. But if the experiencers are more technologically oriented, like modern people, they might receive a template of interaction that's based on uh technological motifs like hybridization or medical experimentation. And a hypothesis could be put forward that the non human intelligences have a kind of quality of formlessness, but when they interact with humans in historical time, they need forms, and those forms are in part determined by our the contents

of our imagination. And this this type of hypothesis has been put forward by the famous research researcher Jacques Bealat when he observed the the long history of fairy law in its correspondence with abduction law and seeing that there are you know, similar experienced this happening when in the distant past and we just said, hey, these are fairies and angels. The sense of having the from the seventies is interesting. I believe that may be one of the

earliest cases that people have discussed. There's one photograph of the red gridmark in the sixties, but that was definitely not red gridmark because it was a burn that someone was hospitalized for in association with viewing a UFO. It was sort of like understood to be an exhaust fume, and that's called the Falcon Lake incident, and I believe that was in the sixties, So I would I'd love to follow up with that that about the red gridmark specifically.

my back. No, it wasn't acne, It wasn't a rash. The dots were a very precise in pattern. It didn't niche, burn or hurt. The pattern was just there. No, I wasn't sitting in my back against a chair that had similar patterns. My dad was a science was My dad was mister science, and he tried every rational explanation to come up and came up empty. It happened at college, and it happened at home. Mom took me to a dermatologist. He was mystified. At some point it just stopped happening.

I'm not sure when has anybody had any experiences like this or thoughts. So that was the post that they had made on this group. But the like I said, the person themselves actually emailed me after they found the episode, and this was back in June. But they said, that's back in nineteen seventy two through nineteen seventy eight and then it just kind of quit happening.

people sometimes are much more freaked out by this. There's sort of a sense of quiet mystery that's sort of perturbing, but not necessarily like damaging or paranoia or something like that. Thank you for sharing that.

goes to like a junk folder or something. Yep. So they were messaging my wife to try and get hold of me because they discover this on their spouse, and I was like, I'm not an expert or anything about it. Like I literally had a guy on that experienced it and he has this group or whatever. But all these people kind of reach out to me over this red gridmark, and the more I've tried to dig into it, I've

actually went on different search engines. I've went to some that like Duck Duck Go that aren't necessarily like monitored by Google or whatever, and I still come up empty, finding very little info about the REDI gridmark promise. I still think it's something that's really low on the radar.

the group. There's hundreds of photographs. Actually, Experiential Dreaming dot Com did a dossier they made they they did in depth interviews and photographs with three to four hundred experiencers, probably about ten years ago now, there were three researchers that were really into dreaming and the connection between redgridmark and dreaming, and they interviewed all these people, took photographs, did a lot of research, put it up on a website.

They charged about ten dollars for the research. And that's the only other research that I see associated with red gridmark phenomena. I I'm a PhD student, so I'm interested

in research. I want to do research. I've been talking to people about this, and you know, I presented a little bit on this phenomenon in the International Association of the Study of Dreams conference this summer, and I had a few people, a few professional scientists, you know, come up to me afterwards and say, hey, that your talk was interesting. I'd love to help out. But that's as far as it's gotten so far. I believe with kind of academic or scientific based research. I've been telling people

about it. Justin's been talking to people about it. It seems so fascinating. I mean a number of experiencers go to doctors and say, what is this and they don't They can't explain it, and it seems so obviously intelligently designed. So I think a lot of what happens is researchers either go this is clearly people sitting on benches, This

is clearly a backpack mesh pushed into people's backs. However, if you actually look at the thousands of photographs we have that it's clear that those explanations can account for probably a majority of the phenomena, but there's a minority that demonstrate Immed's creativity. And I would say, actually artistry and technical skill and application that you cannot explain any

other way than intentional geometric communication. Let's say there's a reason why it's coming together, and it may use different elements like the template. The grid pattern itself may actually be that long range biopsy device that Justin talks about. But to my eyes, how it's applied me is it

has specific meaning. And I am thinking about the circular red grid marks actually because they're composed of sort of pie slices of what appears to be the same template applied over and over again for a very specific reason, which is the construction of these these circles out of these different bits of the grid or something like that. The circles themselves are quizzical, they have beautiful patterns in them.

There's you know, like a quarter of the circumference will have these big, bigger dots for some reason, there's specific numbers associated with it. And if I look into the geometry, sacred geometry, meaningful constants, meaningful relationships just fall out of it. So and I've looked through a lot of other types of body marks. I've analyzed things that appear to be

the grid mark but aren't. So there is a heightened degree of communication here, And so I think what ends up happening with these scientists they go they either say hey, is it? These people don't know what sitting on grid benches does to people, and so all of the red grid mark experiencers are diluted in thinking there's a mysterious explanation, or they into it that it's an intelligent phenomena that we can't explain that demonstrates advanced technology, and nobody's ready

to handle that. Like that's a really hard thing to engage funders of research. It's really hard to put your reputation on the line to say, hey, I think this is an artifact of advanced technology of non human intelligence, and to even put forward that hypothesis as a professional researcher, as an academic or scientist is risky. And so I think that's in part why there's not more of a presence or a focus on this.

be brought up. Obviously, it's not that we are aware of affecting people in the sense of harming them, but at the same time, it's something strange that literally is going on, and no one seems to know about it. I know on the Mayo Clinic there is like twenty something different pages of people asking about these marks, and they never got a single response from them. Yep, it's like they just ignore it, like no one wants to look into it. It's clearly someone's experiencing these things and

dermatologists don't know what they are. Other doctors and stuff look at and have no idea what they are. But then it just gets swept under the road that they don't want to discuss if anyone wants to research, and no one wants to be the first ones that blow the lid off this thing.

in the research I'm doing, I'm just collecting dreams. I'm going to interview some experiencers, and I'll put together pretty standard dream studies research on this topic. Say these are the dreams of these experiencers. As an aside, we get to describe the actual phenomena that's happening. And my hope is that I can get that paper peer reviewed, which should be relatively easy enough because we're doing standard dream

studies kind of what did you dream about? I'm using a very standard method of asking people about their dreams, and then hopefully as an aside, we'll get the phenomenon characteristics published and that could be a step forward for other researchers to cite this paper. Say let's actually look into not the dreams. But the physical aspect of this phenomenon, Yeah,

it's fascinating to me. I get riled up a little bit about this because it's clearly communicative, it's clearly geometrically meaningful. There's clear connections with entities. Whether or not they're angels or aliens or secret humans we still have to figure out. But there's enough data in the geometry and the application that we could literally build a model of the how it's being made. Right, we could, we could slow, we could,

we could build a model of how it's applied. In the theory that we have is that it is applied as light shined through templates or I use the metaphor of a dark room. So there's a light source, it goes through a photonegative and goes onto photosensitive paper. The

photosensive sensitive paper would be analogous to the skin. The darkroom light is analogous to whatever source of light they have, and the the photograph the negative is something similar to the grid pattern that they're using to make the marks. There's another couple elements associated with this model, and that

would be opaque sheets of paper. Basically, so in dark room photography you might isolate specific elements of the photograph to expose them, or it's called dodge and burn basically, so you add more light to areas and you prevent light from hitting some areas of the photo paper in order to make the contrast the way you want, and you use those pieces of paper between the film and the negative to do that control. And we see that actually happening. I see that happening in the geometry of

the marks. When you look into it. They're clearly they have something like a dark room projector and they're shining it onto the skin, and they do multiple applications, and those things become very apparent, and there's certain deviations from the euclidian construction the design, so you can start to see the accidental effects of physical bodies, like having light shined to the curved bodies or people moving. That's another

thing you can see. And so there's enough deviations from those patterns in regular, meaningful ways that we can start to use those sort of how these dots get expanded as they land on the contours of the body, and how they're applied multiple times to start to go how could this actually happen with this metaphor of a darkroom projector film and photo paper, and we could actually start to go, Okay, we could reproduce some of the designs

that they're using as the fundamental templates that they're applying to the red grid mark, and that would be fascinating to me, and that that requires that would that would that's implied by the geometry that we're seeing as something we could do. We have there's one case of a photograph of something that seems like someone someone took a photograph of their kid that received the mark, which was

an interesting hexagonal grid pattern. But there's a triangle of light that you can see in the photograph and something in that triangle of light, and so there it seems to be something like an inter dimensional machine or something like that. But to actually build a physical model of it would move us forward into understanding what is even possible, How is it even possible that these are technically applied. That seems it seems like so obvious to me to be the next step something we need to do as

people who are researching this mark as humans. Really, this is a mystery that deserves investigation because touses of people are experiencing it and it's so mysterious and exhibit such qualities that it has to be advanced technology. There's no other rational explanation that is being applied through intelligent design, and it opens up so many questions like who are

these people making the marks? Why are they doing that, Why are they doing it in such a way that we could build a model of their device to do that, And that sort of feels like they are leading us towards technological development. That's one of the deductions I have is this, if we investigate this, we will then have

the technology that is necessary to produce such marks. And it doesn't seem like it's that far away from actually understanding it would require a research grant, it requires some scientists, right like we need we need it, just it requires hours of time to collect the data, collate it. Even from the Red grid Mark Phenomenon group, there's tremendous amount of data, but it's not structured in a way that could be analyzed easily, so we have to go through

certain processes and just nobody's doing it. No one's offered, no one's offered me funding to do it. There's no grants out there to study anominalist body marks that I know of, so I wish that were something that we could do as a people, and that science were more open to that. I do see actually science moving in that direction, and the UAP hearings to be kind of a watershed threshold moment, because what's the testimony of the

uf A whistleblower right is really received heard? And if anything comes out of that from Congress that confirms the presence of non human and intelligence and UAPs in our world, and the reality of these things are confirmed by the government, then that opens the door for mainstream funding organizations, science and academia to start asking the questions what about the biologics,

what about the pilots, what about the intelligences? Where before it was just sort of ridiculous to ask us questions. So it's a very exciting time and I'm looking forward in the next five years to see where this goes.

the discomfort of a sunburn. So I don't know That's why I was curious about what layer of skin it's on, because if it's below a certain layer and it just shows up, there's got to be some sort of means of Ford to appear. And if it's like you were saying, almost like a dark room type scenario, it would almost be like almost I would say, heat or to an extent, like a laser. Somehow they would be getting under the

skin without damaging the skin. And I don't understand. That's where I'm trying to wrap my head around, like what could cause something like that without actually damaging the skin, Because even with people with tattoos, you feel the tattoo, and if you're getting it removed by a laser, you fill that too. So I don't know how you would be able to get something underneath someone's skin without actually feeling it.

to vibrate according to a frequency. The sand jumps into lines basically or patterns that are determined by the constructive interference of the sound waves. So this is like if you have a singing bowl or a wineglass full of water, you vibrate that you can see these ripples on the surface of the water. The same thing happens with the

sand on the metal plate that's the Clodney plate. And so you can produce highly complex patterns through the introduction of multiple frequencies of sound that emulate Actually some of the patterns were seeing. So the Stanford research applied it to I believe, heart cells that were kind of harvested from people somehow I get, I don't know how, and they put them on plates and they could demonstrate that they could move these human body cells into these regular

patterns that appeared. I mean, there were certain there were hexagonal grids of dots, right, and that's classic red grid mark phenomenon that that's a proof of concept as to how that's possible. Although the red grid mark phenomena, in addition to having like hexagonal grids of dots, they have the inverse pattern where they shodow diamonds in diamonds of the negative space instead of the dots on the positive

kind of grid marks. So there's an inversion thing happening, which would sort of be a complication to applying that that chimatics example, to the red grid mark. That's that's a clue, even though we're using sound instead of light in this case.

vessel walls. I don't know what the technical term is, it causes a sunburn?

They have the capacity to mediate those relationships or negotiate those relationships for their own benefit and the collective benefit of humanity. The reason why I say that is because of the precedent of dream shamanism. So this is a type of culture. Dreams amount of cultures universally see that every single person can engage with these kind of dreamlike domains. And so in primitive cultures, the alien story or the angel story or the fairy story may have been lumped

together in something like a dream. And they honor these dream experiences as real but also as dream like. And they also see that by talking about them just like we're doing here and now, and by applying intention to them through ritual expression, they can gain insight, gain knowledge.

And we have proof from these dream shamanic cultures that the knowledge that they gain may be scientifically advanced to such a degree that they can't know it, or may be precognitive so that it can take action like avoiding a title wave or something like that for collective benefit. So it's a universal quality that is being expressed through

through primarily intuitive and creative modes of thinking. That our Western mainstream culture, because of our focus on the objective, repeatable kind of experiments and this highly tech technical jargon, we go, oh oh, all that all that intuition is meaningless, Right, you have to be an expert to understand this. Actually, I say, if we look to dream shamanic cultures as

healthy examples of relating to these different domains. They do so it through universal intuition, and everyone's equally empowered to relate to that, and it's not just the experts. So that's that's something that's very important to bring up. And we touched in on this when we were like, oh, like,

I'm not like, I'm not an expert on sunburns. You're not either, but you're touching into an intuition that is likely meaningful and should we follow, that will likely lead to at least person meaningful discoveries that are well likely I mean, have significance to the group. So I just wanted to call that out.

to their kid just to take a photo. That doesn't that doesn't add up when I see the kids involved, whether like I could see like the intricate patterns. Someone set on something and did it and said, oh look what I have. Okay, Well, what's the point of that too? Like, wow, you got like a couple of people talking about it on the internet. Cool. I mean, it doesn't really, I don't see the need of why someone would fake this. It doesn't. You're not going to become famous for it, you know what I mean?

wasn't actually you know, it was for him. It was a couple of seconds, uh, pressing into it.

not define dreams as nocturnal hallucinations anymore. Right, So the dreams I hadists say, hey, you can have dream experiences while in waking stage. This is a type of conscious experience or experience in consciousness. So you can have dreams from waking, like day dreams or hypnagogia. So that's this phase between sleeping and waking or in the traditional kind

of conventional understanding of dreams. So I say, actually, as possible to have a dream while driving and seeing the mark happen, and even though you're driving in in the waking phase, you're still having a dreamlike experience. It's unfold. So that's another kind of complexity to the inquiry. But the sense of people remembering their dreams or not, there are high dream recall people, people who remember their dreams

more frequently. And this is the experience I have with working with a lot of the people who respond to me, especially asking for the geometric analysis. They say, I go, okay, this is a great mark. Did you have any dreams? Because they're like, I have so many strange streams all the time. Yeah, probably I had strange streams around this mark. But my life is full of strange streams, and that's

that's one of the common responses I get. So, this this sense of people remembering strange streams in association with the mark, I believe is you know, if they remember the strange streams in the association with the mark. They're sort of like in between active dreamers and people who don't actually remember their dreams frequently, so they they remember

these ones because they're additionally strange. And then people remember their dreams all the time, they have a hard time actually pinning down what dream happened the night of the mark because they've had a week full of like angel visitation dreams or light dreams or these these heightened strange dreams.

had nothing to do with the dream. I don't evenmember what the dream was even about, but I just remember vaguely that that was mentioned somewhere in my dream. There was something going on in the background about aliens.

and their dreams. I don't have a full consciousness as to what those mean necessarily, and a lot of my experienced dreams, like the dream I had the night I received the anomalist geometric body mark that I call a dawson a line phenomenon dial d al. I had a series of dreams where these aliens or non human intelligences were sort of just there in the dream space, and I didn't have a lot of visibility as to what

was going on. And I came back from the dream and I said, hey, this my dreaming self as I returned to my waking self had specific intuitions within it, and I was convinced this was a lucid dream. I was like, this is a lucid dream. I interacted with that deities, but actually all I remember is a dream that's very similar to what you described, that something happening and there's aliens in the background, and there's not a

lot of content to sink your teeth into. But I had those convictions upon entering into waking, So I think a lot of these interactions are happening below the surface of consciousness and they don't really need to have a full on conscious interaction with us. The other thing I would say about your dream experience, and this is one of the stranger things I've experienced working with people's dreams, is they can be we both personally or personally meaningful

and trans personally meaningful. So rather than saying is this is this dream of aliens real or just a dream? I say is this personally significant and trans personally significant? Because oftentimes we don't have a way to objectively measure these things or have repeatable experiences. But the distinction between personally significant meaning it's just just related to meet my subconscious, my desires, whatever, or is it trans personally significant meaning

does it go beyond the personal psyche? Is this in the realm of collective unconscious? Is this in the realm of spirit that has the capacity to impact our objective world? But is primarily psycho spiritual, and so in that way, these dreams that are personally sort of insignificant man actually be trans personally significant in a way we don't understand yet.

a lot of ways they can talk to us. Other thing that I found interesting in working with so many dreams is sometimes the dreams are meaningless in this moment, like wes like, what does this even mean? Why am I having this? And then weeks later, months later, years later, you'll discover their precognitive or you discover their specific meaning there. So that's another reason to pay attention to dreams and to record them is you never know what ends up happening,

and you never know what in retrospect is meaningful. And so that's one of the advice I would give to people is to just pay attention more. And as you pay attention more to the dreams and their correspondence with waking life, they start to talk more to you because they know you're paying attention to them.

But I recorded this invitation, and then months later I had a series of three dreams that I felt like were visitation dreams, and they had certain qualities that were different than my normal dreams, generally a sense of luminous darkness, a sense of no that their entities here, but I can't see anything. It's not like it's not like a normal dream where there's visual content. It's just just black. But I know everything about it. I know there's people there.

I can gain information. If you ask me what color of robes these people were wearing, I might be able to tell you or something like that. But in the experience itself, it's just darkness. And I had a series of these three dreams, and on the last one I remember coming back from the space and being in the presence of an entity I would call a guide and coming back through what I would term to be something like a hypnogogic image tree, so that's in between waking

and sleeping. The way I perceived it was an endless series of gray hallways with many doors, and I walked through that, and I walked through one of the doorways back into my here and now. And my intuition said, you had an extremely lucid dream. You will not remember this whatsoever. Do not remember This's not important to remember this. So I didn't record that dream, and I forgot about it until I went into the sauna. I looked down

on my leg. I saw seven dots, very regular, very small formation, and it's just had this whole intuition of meaning I remember the dream. I at the same time I was remembering that, I said, this is red gridmark, and I was like, no, this is not red gridmark. The dots look different. So I videoed it, I photoed it, I recorded my feelings around it. I knew there was some sort of geometric messaging in there, but I was unable to discern what that was. And it's sort of

like how do you make sense of it? Like how do you figure out is there geometry?

you're working in service to others. We know you want to change how the world is. If you work with us, we'll help you. We we shape reality. Just follow our instructions. And then at the time I thought, okay, well I have to meditate more. I was engaged in a variety of practices and I thought, okay, I'll do these sort of magical practices. Actually is what I think thought they were asking me to do. But as an aside, the next day, I looked at sacred geometry videos on YouTube.

Went to bed the next day and they said, hey, you know, you did exactly what we asked. You learned about sacred geometry, like this is a first for us. Good job, we're building rapport. You're understanding now over the next few weeks, do exactly what we say, right, don't add your own spin to it like you normally do. Do exactly like we said, like you did before, which was just you watched these sacred geometry videos. You took

the action we wanted. Just keep doing that. And so I learned how to focus on what they wanted or the interactions there, and I was guided through this experience of building learning how mendalas work analyzing crop circles. They had me analyze dozens of red gridmark phenomena. This is where that experience is where I gained a lot of insight around the technical nature of the application of the mark. That's where I became convinced we can build a model

here of the technology. And then they had me analyze geometric patterns in UAP documentation, so that's UFO's flying information or UFOs pulsating in specific patterns, and how to discern those messages. They had me do ruler and compass geometry on top of that to gain meaning from it. And then after all of that, it was probably twenty days of very obsessive work, they said, now you're ready to

do your body mark. Get other photos. Start analyzing it, try to build a ruler and compass construction of this. If you do that, then you notice a mathematical object.

So if I can build a mathematical a geometric object using only the ruler and compass, and it's the same format, shape, and size of the actual mark, then I can know that that body mark is actually a mathematical geometric object that's communicated through the physical means of my skin, but is actually something else than just an artifact of technology. It's actually a math communication. So they had me do that, and I built a really I would say, a naive

and primitive math construction. I went left to right with his dots, and I said, this dot is equal to that dot, and the interval between them has a very specific proportion to the interval of the whole formation, And the smaller dots on the right are in golden ratio proportion to the other dots, which means that's a signifier that whoever made the mark understands beauty and mathematics. And

I built that construction. I applied it a congruence tess mean, I took photos of the mark, and I took the ruler and compass construction and it overlaid them on top of each other, and it was a perfect fit. And I go, this is it. This is a math communication. From that moment on, I've been offering services of geometric analysis to body mark experiences, generally for free. I ask for a donation just because it takes time. People pay

me or not. And I offer this and people like that because they go, oh, my body mark actually is geometric. These are its principles, These are the characteristics of the geometry, and it helps people understand that yes, this is indeed intelligent communication in some way, shape or form. So it adds a lot a dimension of meaning to it. So that was my experience with the body mark itself. After discerning the geometry within the body mark, I said, hey,

this has got to happen to somebody else. I have to figure out if other people have experienced it. And I immediately found ah, two other experiencers that had similar dreams, that had similar geometry, that had the similar qualities that I have it. And so at that point I said, this is a phenomenon. Let's let's let's make an acronym dots in the line, because that's what I was calling it.

So that's the dial mark, and then since then I've I've analyzed about a dozen marks from people very similar phenomenon. Sometimes they're sometimes they're clear marks, but puncture puncture wounds. Sometimes they are big formations, sometimes they're small formations, but they always have a sort of linear quality. There's always dots, there's always puncture wounds. There's sometimes association with entity dreams.

Itself good with it. So I've been looking into this mark primarily because I've experienced it. I believe it's a phenomena and that is meaningful associated with dream like encounters with non human intelligence. I believe it is mathematical communication, and I believe it is actually associated with UAP sightings. The reason why I say this is the geometry associated

with the Doston A line. So if you map that geometry and you draw that like circles on a line, you can do the same thing with the photographs of the Phoenix lights. And I cover this all in in my book Missing Time Found by the way, But the Phoenix lights are orbs of light that are in a geometric formation that you can generally draw a line through, and they generally have the same proportions in geometric themes

as Dowson A line. So there's a geometric connection between these body mark phenomena and these geometric orb phenomena that everyone has seen. I mean, that case is very famous, so I believe there's a connection there. I'm sort of collecting data and trying to figure out what this actually is and how to work with this in a deeper way. So I know I said a lot to that. I'm curious about where you'd like to go next with this this topic.

search for extraterrestrial intelligence. They use radio telescopes to look for messages and sometimes send messages using math. The question is what type of math is universal? And one of the things that I've been paying attention.

The contact movie shows like repeated prime numbers, and inside of that wave is a lot of data that then becomes characters like glyphs or whatever, that then can be translated into mathematical or linguistic communications. That is an abstract understanding of math as the universal language. This is something I'm positing or hypothesizing. I'm gathering research in terms of mathematical education and the history of math to support these claims. But I say that when we think about encoding meaning

in math, that is an abstraction that requires experts. But the universal way of working with math is generally geometry. And so we're thinking about objects in space. Everyone knows what a line is, a dot is, a circle is, and these seem to emerge out of the base level of our consciousness. How we perceive space and time is some way intimately tied with the nature of geometry, and

that's like Euclidian geometry. So that's very basic. The way we make meaning from that is twofold one is we can just look at the geometry, and anyone can do that in discern feelings, ascetic values so there's beauty associated with the geometry, feelings associated with it. The things you think about it are actually a communication and are actually one dimension of meaning of this math as a universal language.

So anyone, the non expert who's never done geometry can look at the dotsin a lined body mark or red grid mark and go, oh okay, there's meaning coming off of it. And that comes through primarily your intuition, like we were talking about, Translating that intuition into an objective statement requires sophistication and abstraction, but that base level of direct apprehension of the direct intuition you experienced while looking at this geometry is a communication that I would argue

is as meaningful as the encoded message. And there's two precedents I used to substantiate that claim. What is Carl Jung's work with mandalas an active imagination, and the other is the Tibetan Buddhist practice of using mandalas as a domain for essentially telepathic encounters with divinity. Right, So they have these mandalas, there's a Buddha inside of it or a spirit. You meditate on that, and then that Buddha or spirit sort of tea you things, and it happens

in a very imaginative or intuitive way. But that's actually something that religion has been based on. So we have these two examples that actual geometry can lead to direct mind to mind interaction with beings that at least exists in the collective unconscious, that exists outside of your personal unconscious. So at that level, you do right now can look at the dots in the line or redgrid mark and maybe imagine work with a little bit of the geometry

to relate it back to the circle. That's the really what I'm doing with applying this geometry. If it's related to this circle, then it's related to a mandala. If it's related to a mandala, then you can have an imaginative and intuitive interaction with something that is is communicative and real at least that collective unconscious level one side of it. The next step is actually figuring out do these things in code, meaning in terms of messages, in

terms of math or not. And so there's there's two things I would respond to. What is the docent line and these UAP geometries actually do seem to communicate mathematical insights, and so I would put forward the work of Jimmy Blanchett, who works with radio communications and receives UAP manifestations that

kind of instruct him on geometry. He or on the mathematical nature of the universe, and that there's actually communications coming through about the nature of mathematics through the geometry that I'm seeing. He's analyzing his geometry using math, using number, and I'm doing it through geometry, and we're syncretistically collaborating. So I believe he's actually receiving the same types of communications I am through the dots in a line. He's

seeing it through UFO videos. But we're saying the same things in different mathematical languages. So there's this whole body of math that's coming through that has to do with how the universe works, and it has to do with the mathematical nature of the universe, And for his messaging, it's bringing all of our mathematical and physical constants into a geometric en harmonic system where everything makes sense. It's like,

why is a mile five thousand feet or whatever? And if you if you start getting the right units, you start to see that things are implied by the geometry of the universe in a very regular way that isn't elucidated by the strange physical constants that we have now in terms of our unit system. So that's what he's getting. I also have the hypothesis and I'm working with that now to see about encoded meaning. So that's like binary code or other codes in these phenomena. That's one of

the hypotheses I have looking into. After applying them ruler and compass geometry to the UAPs and the dosonal line,

I notice these very strange deviations from geometric pattern. So I can apply the same geometric pattern to multiple photos of UAPs and dosonal line and the same framework will touch each of the dots on dotsonal line in different ways or UAPs, and the dots will be directly above or directly below, or directly left or right, or one or two dots away from these places of geometric oherence, which signifies to me a sense of deviation from a form, which then says, hey, this is a one or a

zero in binary. To me, I think it's actually that something like binary code, but with multiple not just binary. It's something like hexadecimal or something like that. Again, this takes time to research. I've looked through maybe a dozen examples of this geometry, I've discerned there is a pattern. I need probably ten times more data to even discern what that pattern or how that encoding system works. So, once again a long answer to a very simple question.

of the military guys. And it's like you said, it's almost like binary code, and there's a bunch of marketings and stuff all over. They almost said like high hybrid glysts or whatever type designs on this craft. Because they were it was small, they were able to touch it. I've heard different variations of this story. And the last I knew they had these binary codes and they were trying to crack whatever the code was for what they had saw when they touched this thing. And this was

again back in the eighties. So I thought it was weird that if it was using numbers and like a binary type system, maybe this is something to do that like what people are having now, like you're trying to figure out, like with geometry and everything else, maybe there's a certain had her into all this that interconnects it.

in them. And again Jimmy Blanchet's been looking into that that message and been using the geographic placements to he's actually seeing the same geometries he's seeing in the UAPs, which are highly similar to the geometries and geometric messaging. I'm saying he's seeing that in the placement of these geographical locations. When he uses the nautical mile as the unit. The nautical mile is not like a kilometer. It's not like like our imperial mile we have in the States.

It's based on spherical geometry. It is based on division of the sphere into degrees, and so there's a high degree of like geometry in it. So when you apply those you you start to see these patterns emerge. And you apply that to the same to the geographic placements in the Rendelsham message, that's what he's seeing, so that it is a it is a big pattern I often think about. I mean, I personally got into this experience

with the prejudice against binary or encoded messages. I said, there's Personally I thought, you know, there can't be I mean, it's just so strange to think that eats wuld communicate, or non human and intelligences would communicate through binary that we could then interpret. And I became convinced it was the direct mind of mind communication through the mandala type, through this kind of beautiful geometry. Like you have an

experience looking at the geometry. It's an artistic, spiritual experience, like responding to it, it's emotional, it changes you. But there's no real encoded message in there. But I'm actually now seeing that et Nhi Communications oftentimes have as many dimensions of meaning as you can pack in there. I mean meaning that they're fractal, they're efficient in their communications.

So why wouldn't a communication be personally meaningful, transpersonally meaningful, meaningful at rod geometry, and meaningful in terms of it's encoded message. The message I would put forward that I'm working with in terms of my mission here is that you can start with the dimension of meaning that makes sense to you, right, We don't need to decode these messages to start working with and making sense of it. Often these times there's messages have a quality of mystery

to them that feel like they'll never be solved. But the experience I have is working, even with the emotional response to some of the messages, even contemplating how strange it is, just exposing oneself to these anomalousts experiences is meaningful and just as meaningful as perhaps decoding a message.

has to be an intelligence behind it. If you can rule out some of the patterns from someone leaning on something, for every one of those that are ruled out, there's still some that you can't explain, and there's some sort of physical intelligence behind it. But the designs and the patterns and everything else, and even now you're with your geometry and everything, I don't know how to get anything rolling for as people in the mainstream to take this seriously.

I've mentioned it before on another episode with it. It was a doing a podcast with a bigger podcast, and I brought that up. They'd never heard of it before, and they looked into it while we were on the episode, and I expected then to eventually like do their own episode on and they never have. So it's like even other podcasters, I only know of one other podcast that I've been talking to recently that have actually even had

an episode, whether they actually interviewed justin before I ever did. Yeah, and we've talked about maybe working together and doing a updated podcast for that too, just to try and bring more attention to it. But at the same time, there's not a whole lot of new information to put out there, because there's just not a whole lot, Like you're one of the first people that I know is actually researching into the whole phenomena.

there's clearly technical applications. There's some people on the other side making the mark that are good at it and some people that are bad at it, and you know, you can see who they're interacting with, and it's the same guys making the same type of mark here as over there, basically, and to have that level of capacity and insight into this strange phenomena that will clearly lead us to some level of inter dimensional advanced technology, Like

that's the conclusion you, like I have to come to. Why we're not studying this and why we're still just talking about whether or not UAPs are real or whether or not this phenomena are real is very frustrating to me. But it's something that we have to be patient with. And I think a lot about this too, about the response of the mainstream about how everyone might really be

having these experiences. I put forward in my book Missing Time found that all of these experiences, the primary precedent for et A Nhi contact is a dream experience, actually, And the reason why I talk about this, and I'm talking about this now is that I believe that the way we treat dreams is the way we're treating et nhi contact, and that we in the West and especially Western science, for the last only three hundred years, have had a strong bias against dreams as being real or meaningful.

We say, no, no, no, they're they're just fantasies of the mind that are meaningless, and if they are meaningful, there's simply wish fulfillment, like Freud says, and we don't have as a culture. We've been sort of trained away and working with our dreams, and we've been trained away from the awareness that we are each powerful beings in the dream world with the capacity to both navigate and negotiate our collective fortune through this sort of mediating relationships

with non human intelligences. In traditional dreaming, cultures. The non human intelligences include the wisdom of the Earth, include the wisdom of the ancestors, include you know, like the voice of the forest, and the voice of the forest will tell you where to find food, where to avoid danger, that sort of thing. And they also talk to non human intelligence is like we might imagine aliens and things

like that. So we in the Western science we don't even know how to relate to our closest neighbors, like the wisdom of the forest and mother Earth, that sort of thing through the dream So how could we even imagine working with something so exotic as these phenomena, And yet it seems that these things are real and want us to communicate. That's the conclusion I have with the

body mark phenomena. They're inviting us and they're saying, hey, don't forget to work with us, don't forget to work with these dreamlike ways of knowing, and they're reinviting us to that conversation. That's in part why I think there's.

And that's how I feel with a lot of these encounters with what people believe or some sort of cryptids or whatever, and I think it could all go back into the same type of entity in itself flake even with the spirit realm. I think there's something on the other side that we bleed into. I know people see shadow people what if that's just another person, but they're just on that different spectrum than what we are. They're on that other realm and they're bleeding into our world.

Same thing, well, I could say with the ghosts, same thing with these people. Say they bigfoot, then all of a sudden it just disappears in these lights in the skies, and it almost to me sounds like it's not so much from outer space. It's more or less from a different dimension that we just can't see into, and we just see bits and pieces when they interact with us.

As a hypnotist, I often think about this because most of the time people say missing time or the fact that we don't remember these experiences is caused by either alien mind control or they're traumatic events that we're repressing. If it's alien mind control, Like, if the aliens are actually controlling our mind, why can I as a hypnotist, you know, in the twenty first century, Like we're still

using cars and fossil fuels. We still don't know exactly how the brain works, Like, how can I counteract these the advanced technology of alien mind control? And my conclusion is, if it were the case that I was working with alien mind control from such advanced civilizations, I would not be able to support experiencers to remember their experiences. I put forward the notion that we don't remember these experiences for the same exact reason we don't remember our rem

dreaming every night. And I say that because REM dreams have fantastic beings, impossible physics, and things like that. Likewise, REM dream is associated with sleep paralysis. Alien abduction is associated with sleep paralysis. Most of the UFO sightings are seen around those times too, So something is happening in terms of the bleedover of dimensions in association with the

dreaming mind. That's what I would hypothesize here. Interestingly, this whole notion of are they physically real in the way they appear or is there a deeper reality there? People have had this conversation for centuries, almost millennia. I have the earliest example of this kind of question I found in talk in the Neoplatonic philosophy, so that's late antiquity,

that's like three to five hundred eighty. People were talking about god visitations, so like that the ancient Greek gods, particularly the goddess Sclepius, who is described as a shape shifting reptilian being who lives in the sky. Right, some people were like, Oh, this shape shifting reptilian visited me

in my dream space and it felt really real. And other people were like, well, we think that that might be the case, but we also think that this may be a representation of a formless consciousness, and you're just applying the forms of Greek philosophy or Greek mythology to this formless damon or angelic being, and it might be

something else. And so there has been this dialogue around whether the forms we have perceived of these non human intelligences are actually that or are they simply just rejections or kind of cloaks that these formless beings where when they visit us. And my conclusion, I don't have a conclusion, but sort of both is how I interact with it.

a doctor. He's from Greece, and he actually has had people send him stuff that they found in their body, like implants or whatever. And he was able to confirm that the material from this crashed little orb they found, he had some of it sent to him, and then the patterns to this that was actually in someone's foot,

I believe it was. It's basically intelligently made, like it's almost like the same type of materials, and it was like the first conclusive things from that he could prove that these implants were they had like these little It's been over a year since I've talked to him, but it's they had these under a microscope or everything had like these little channels and everything almost like your blood flow system, like your arteries and everything else in this little,

tiny microscopic thing. And to me, it seems like it's highly intelligently made. Now what it is, I couldn't tell you. He listed what the materials were in everything. But I've actually reached out to him a little bit ago to see if there's been any updates, because I said it's

been over a year. I'm curious to see if he's found anything else or if anyone else has ever sent him anything based off of the interview that we had, because that's the other thing, like I talked to him before, I've ever even heard of what the grid gridmark pattern was or a red Grimmark fanana phenomenon. And now if there's different entities that are implanting different types of materials into people, then there's other ones that are putting these

patterns on people. Again, it goes back to that age old question of why are they doing it? I know you don't have an answer. I no one really does. But it's just weird that there's certain different aspects of people are experiencing.

that's from a UAP. And I see that the geometric themes that I've discerned in the dots and the line body mark being literally exactly the same geometries of the phoenix lights indicates to me that there is a strong connection, right, It's not it's not like there are lights in the sky, uh, and these are alien vessels or something like that. There's some sort of intimate connection with our bodies and these craft.

And that's sort of what it sounds like when they are intelligently designing like these craft that have the same material here. I mean, I've heard similar things around, like channels within advanced materials being indicatory of UAP materials, that sort of thing. So that what he found very much aligns with the other whisperings I hear about reverse engineer technology or like the reverse engineering insights that have emerged. So we can actually based on the connection between these

experiences and dreams. I would say, we do have the capacity to understand why, at least in one dimension of meaning. So, like I said, there's many dimensions of meaning, subjective and objective,

personal and trans personal. We can look to the history of mathematics and philosophy right and we can see there has been interactions with mathematicians, political people with entities that may be similar to the entities we're talking about through dreams or dream like experiences that are similar to the experiences we're talking about throughout history, and they generally bring

creative insights regarding science, math, philosophy, technology. Socrates is the father of Western philosophy basically, and he had psychedelic experiences in which he talked to a non human intelligence, would tell them things the same thing what they cart, where we get a lot of our understanding of like the scientific method and also how we think about geometry.

and that's one of the reasons. That's that's not a satisfying reason as to why they're interacting with us, but that's one of the deductions we can make, I believe looking at this phenomenon in general.

So I'll talk a lot about that, about how regression hypnosis is a means of knowledge, but it is not a means of objective knowledge nor a means of historic testimony. So this resolves a bit of the controversies around regression hypnosis, particularly that emerged in the nineties called the memory wars, a controversy or false memories. So we say, hey, it's a dream like experience. You can understand the alse of this. These experiences like dreams, and that's how I work with people.

I offer all of my work by donation, so that's like after the fact for the sessions people don't nate for it. I have all of the material website that's d SETI dot org d s e t i dot org that stands for the Dream Search or Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence. I've got a couple of books on Amazon you can get there to through the website, and most recently put out a lot of three case studies about redgridmark phenomena and several case studies about the Dawson line phenomena,

the UAP studies. That's in my book Missing Time Found. Don't worry, It's just a dream again, available on my website or Amazon via the links on the website. So that's the best way to get in contact with me. If you're interested in geometric analysis of the body marks, I would really appreciate. I love working with that. That's one of the things that the other side had told me to do is offer this as a service someone has a mark. Is in part my responsibility to offer

the service of geometric analysis. I say, hey, this is the geometry I see, this is I don't see. Geometry is not a definitive response. It's a step in an inquiry that the experiencer has, but it provides some understanding or some ways to sync the teeth in. So those are the best way. That's the best way to get in contact with me is through DSETI dot org.

But hopefully with more episodes and more dealings with it and more people coming forward, it'll eventually help blow the lid off. But till then we'll just keep chugging along.

subject matters. These are meaningful, these are impactful, let's just listen. So thank you for bringing that presence to the.

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