We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.
Imagine what would it happen if we had and attracted the magic we had back when we couldn't fathom life is a fantasy, not with the fanity, not the way it was back then. So I grabbed my pan and write it down like a scripture. Missed the mistic making hits for the Misfits, the show where you don't know what you don't know?
When it's on again with Sewn and Jonathan. Welcome to Metimistics, where you don't know what you don't know. My name's Jonathan, I'm Sean, and today we have a very special first time guest. Welcome to the show. Thomas Hatsis hey man and really looking forward to this. And from from a lot of your content, I see that you are right up our alley as far as understanding magic, and you just got done talking about your alter being over there. We're like, you're a real life wizard and we want
to talk to you. So how did you get into all that in the first place?
I just pretty much my whole life. I think there was a lot. I know, that's like the shittiest senseorever. Oh wait, could I.
Say that, Yeah, of course, yeah, I.
Like I even I can say so, oh my whole life, like what a what a shallow? And there I just did it. No, you know, you just you sort of have these feelings, you're you're sort of attracted to it. Like so growing up I liked the tell the show duct Tails if you ever heard of it, yep, and the episodes that had to do with like witches or wizards or anything like that. I just sort of gravitated
towards that. And then in my I don't remember how old I was, maybe eleven, twelve, thirteen, somewhere around there. My older brother didn't want to go to school the next day because I don't remember the reason. He didn't do his homework, and there was a test or whatever, and he just said, Yo, you're one of those kind of people that can make it snow. I need you
to make it snow. So the first time I ever tried to do any kind of witchcraft was essentially under duress for my older brother that was going to kick my ass if I didn't. So I went outside and I just I grabbed grass from the front lawn and I boiled some water on the stove. And I put the grass in there and I said, some chance that I don't remember what they were, and yeah, that was it. That was the first smell. It didn't work, but that was the first spell I ever tried to cast my legs.
And uh. Then when the first time I ate mushrooms, I was about I was like eighteen years old, and it wasn't like a full on breakthrough experience, but I definitely came back feeling like, yo, like I think magic might live there, like I think of my space, right, And so then I took like a you know, a deep dose, like like a breakthrough dose. I was like, oh, oh, yeah,
this is where magic is, where it is like. And so I've just been practicing what I call psychedelic witchcraft ever since, for about twenty twenty five years or so.
Psychedelic witchcraft. I've never heard those two words put together. Of course, you know, they they happen to coincide. For sure.
I think that anybody that's ever done a heavy heroic dose of mushrooms is willing to, you know, kind of play outside the boundaries, you know, just because there's what I love about psychedelics in general is that, yeah, there's a lot of awesome things that go on, but it gives me that same feeling of being a little kid, like that same energy, that same excitement, that same wow about everything that I'm seeing. It just makes you like the magic is no longer like not real, It absolutely
is real kind of how you're just talking about. And I was like, man, that's it's funny on so many levels of what you just said. You were talking about ducktails and everything. My son is addicted to Mickey and everything Mickey, specifically the Mickey Christmas movies. He's only three years old, and they always have like you know, the it's like a Mickey and Mini scene and then the next scene is you know, Huey, Dewey and Louie. I just had to look those names up yesterday. So it's
funny you even mentioned that. But yeah, there's something really to it. And as far as as far as the Ducks go, it was I believe it was a Lord Byron, our magician friend. He said that whenever he's trying to do any kind of money spell, he'll call on what's the rich uncle? Uh uh Scrooge McDuck, McDuck. Have you ever done anything like off off, like not off, but like weird like that, calling on like fictional characters and stuff.
Well, an atheist would say that I do that all the time, but not to mind not. But I have a quick question for you, though, Jonathan, why were you looking up Hughey doing Louis yesterday? I'm just curious.
I think that my my wife had asked me, uh because she was looking at the three Ducks as they were on TV yesterday, and uh, she goes, oh, what are their names again? And I was like, I know they rhyme, but I can't remember what they are, and so I looked it up and I was like, ah, Huey doing and Louie.
Okay, well just noting mcquins.
And that's cool that you just looked it up yesterday. It just means like we totally did not plan that.
No, not at all.
Oh, they're used to this by now. It just seems to be this is just how our shows go. You know, bliming is always perfect and we're starting to understand why. Yeah.
Excellent, cool, cool, right, good role. So you would just I'm sorry, you just asked a question. What did I Oh?
Yeah, do you so as far as do you call on traditional gods? And goddesses and energies and stuff like that, or do you get weird with it? I mean, it's all weird, but you know, yeah.
So I sort of put it's interesting because I'm writing a book on this right now, so hopefully i'll explain it like, well, I see it like this. Here's where it's sort of like an atheist and I like because I'm a very religious person, but I want to be able to speak to people that are. Here's where we could agree, Like an atheist would agree that life and consciousness exists, right, no matter what we think about where it came from. We would all agree, right it self
evident life and consciousness exists. Okay, I call that guy. We would all agree that we have the ability to make choices. Now. I know some people would say we don't have free will, like Sam Harris might say we don't have free will. I would say that we have free will, but it's within limits, of course, but we have some semblance of free will. I mean, we could both choose to hang up right now if we wanted to, right, I mean, but well, I mean I don't want to. I want to talk to you, but I mean.
If you did, I would probably sentence you to hell for not going well.
I would deserve it. I would deserve it anyway. So that ability to make a choice I just call hectag like. Whatever that thing is, whatever our ability to make a choice, I call it heckatan. I think an atheists would agree that. Yeah, even if it's within limits, we have the ability to make a choice. Now, what about evolution, Well, yeah, most atheists do believe. I think evolution is true. I mean, there seems to be plenty of evidence for it. I
just call that seriously. So the natural sort of the primordial resonances of life, consciousness, choice, and evolution, I have just because I'm a human. That's what silly humans do. I have anthropomorphized those ideas into these sort of goddess figures because again, that's what humans do. We're a lot of fun like that. So I see my sort of religious understanding of these goddesses, whether they be fictional or not. To get to your question, Jonathan, is sort of besides
the point. We have evolved as humans to seek out these experiences, whether we choose to do it or not, whether there's anything real to it or not. I mean I believe there is, but let's just say for arguments eight, there isn't We nonetheless have evolved to seek these experiences out. So for me, it just makes my life all the richer to do it. Like, I don't say it's true for me, because I don't believe in that. I just
say that it serves me. It makes my life just all the better and more interesting and weird and kooky, and that's how I like it.
Okay. So it's kind of like just personifying the elements around you essentially, and that is the way that you're able to get a little bit more energetically, you know, like connected to it. What's that just by personifying the certain elements and what some some might call this, others might call this, you call it something else right right by you personifying it, does that feel like you're kind of gravitating closer to the energy that we would call this A second say, hecktay.
Sure, I see it sort of like this, Like my I am constantly and anybody who engages in magical practices or which we are constantly reaching up with the assumption that there is something reaching down and when it gets together, it just sort of locks in and it's a little bit of what that energy is or forces for a better word, and a little bit of ourselves, and it just it's sort of a little bit of a soup, but they're they sort of come together in that way.
But the soup's tasty, so you know, I keep I keep making it.
So it's kind of like a like a red shift blue shift kind of thing that is going on on top of maybe like an as above so below kind of thing.
It's close like with the as above so below. I see what you're getting at, but it's it's more of as above, so below.
Connected in the middle.
Gotcha, Okay, total better.
Way of putting it, because that's a great question. I totally wish I had a better ends with it.
That it's like the co creation of the as above and so as below. Right, Yeah, that's the draction that that happens.
Yea, Yeah, exactly. We're co creating it, or at least that is. I think that seems to be what's going on. And that's why like sort of like with people with let's say d MT or ayahuasca, like we'll meet the same kinds of entities, but they'll be a little different. Yeah, And I think that that's just sort of where our own just human nature just enters the picture. And I I don't know if we could ever get around that. Maybe we can, and maybe we are, and we just
don't know. And I'm not giving you know, us humans enough credit, but I don't know. It's just it's interesting stuff regardless.
It's a it's a very subjective experience, you know, this whole human experience. I feel like everything that is in your mind, that's going to be the thing that you tend to experience. And so it makes sense that everybody would experience something slightly different from one another, just because that is your individual, individual, fractalized, individual way of seeing it, you know.
And so of course there's also and I totally agree with that. Another way to look at it, though, would be like this, because then because I'm saying this in a honestly I don't know. So maybe we can sort of wrestle with these ideas a little bit. But let's say, just for argument's sake, a UFO came to Earth, right, and there's three aliens, right. One of those aliens goes to the like, I don't know, like somewhere on the plains of Africa with his lions, and zebras and elephants
and shit. Right, another goes on the water, another goes to San Francisco. All three of those aliens are going to report seeing different things and having different experiences, and yet they were all on planet Earth. So the way I see it, these spirit realms, of these mystic realms are probably far more diverse than Earth itself. So that could be an other reason why there's you know, perhaps
we're actually meeting different entities. Perhaps it's not so much that, you know, Sean, Jonathan and I are all meeting the same thing, like, uh, you know, I'm calling it Hegita, you're calling it whatever you know, Jenna. I don't know why that is so hegitated Jenna, And let's say eambe from the Illucinian Mysteries. Maybe it's not that. Maybe we're not all meeting the same thing and just calling it
something different. Maybe we're meeting three different things, just like the three aliens meeting fish, zebras and people.
Yeah. Man, there's there's a lot of weird shit that goes on within psychedelics. And what is especially crazy is that, for some reason or another, Now I could see how somebody might listen to a show like this, and maybe they are atheist or maybe they're religious, and they're just kind of one track mind. They have it all figured out and everything outside of it is not real or
it's evil or whatever. Right, But like, this was always something that was so fascinating to me that every time I would call upon a specific god or a specific deity or anything like that, it seems to work in its own way. Now if it was all fake, like I feel like the only way that you can call it all fake is if your awareness in picking up on the synchronicities and the messages from the universe or whatever.
That's the only way you can call it fake is just because you don't you're not made aware of, you know, the manifestation of it in one way or another. But for those of us who kind of are a little bit more on the aware side, trying to be a little bit more aware every single day, but like, there's absolutely something going on, and I wonder, does it even matter?
Does it matter to the energy or the entity on the receiving side of our prayer or meditation or spell or anything like that what we call them, or is that kind of our call signal to get in touch with them.
That's that's a great question. So I don't think that those things, any of those things, actually have names in the sense that they are forces, in the sense of like gravity doesn't know that we call gravity gravity, you know, So I don't. I don't believe they have a name. From my interaction with them. They do understand that that's a very human thing to name everything, so they don't
care that I do it. Like the the universal force of life and consciousness that I call Gaya does like it responds to that, because that's how it realizes that I recognize it. You know, even though it recognizes itself, it does not have a name anymore than the ocean has a name or gravity.
Has any Yes, Yes, I like that a lot. And that makes a lot of sense, which would make a lot of sense as to you know, we had a buddy, what was it, Mark, He's better known as the Mirror, but we had him on the show and he goes. You know, if if people just talk more about how God made them feel instead of arguing what God's real name is, I think we would all get see, like, we would be all on the same page, right, But everybody's like, no, his name is God, or his name
is Jesus, or his name is whatever, right allah? And it's like, man who gives a flying fuck what their names are. I don't even think they care. I mean, how many times have we changed Jesus's name for fox sake?
You know, Like, what's the common denominator? What's the thing that can connect us all and have us all realize like, oh, you don't have to be wrong. I don't have to be right, you know. I think that's where it would be really nice to get to that point one day.
Yeah, yeah, totally. I think. Well, with the issue is there are some there are certain ideas that are built into some religions that don't allow for that. Like so it's just one example. Like I don't have a problem with Christianity at all. I think it is a very fine religion. I have Christian friends. They're all chill, like they know that I'm psychedelic and witchy and all that. They don't care at all. But like, the one issue I have is just a one line. Nobody gets to
the Father but through me. If you get rid of that one line, I have zero problem with one hundred percent of Christianity. It's that one line that kind of I'm like, ah, you know, and.
People take it literal.
Yeah, exactly, people take it literal. And it's interesting because in the the uh, the Jesus Seminar's version of the Gospels where they you know, they have the red letter words and they would put a if you're maybe your listeners may or may not be familiar, so if just back up real quick and explain it. The Jesus Seminar is a group of I think it's like eighty some scholars that get together that would debate over what they
would call the red letter words of Jesus. And they were just you know, using historical methodology try to determine what Jesus actually said. And in this particular version of the Bible that I have, the things that they think he said are in read the things that they are pretty certain he didn't say, or in like gray or black if I recall or one of them is like probably not and the other one is absolutely not. Anyway, that line nobody gets to the Father but through me
is in either gray or black. I forget which one, but it's okay, Like it's nobody, like the top scholars of the world don't even think that, like, that's one of the things Jesus would have actually said.
I wonder even how they wouldn't go about that.
It doesn't make any sense, Like with Jesus' original theology, it doesn't make sense.
Right, And I guess that's how they would go about it. But like, how would they know of if any of that is what he said, you know, for any kind of certainty?
Of course, yeah, you know, there's different criteria, and like we don't one hundred percent. Nobody knows for certain, you know, one hundred percent, no one knows for certain, But you look at certain things, like so let's just say in John chapter four, verse twenty seven, I believe, uh, don't quote me on that, but it says they were the
scribes and the Pharisees, I believe one of them. It says they were surprised to see Jesus speaking with women, and not that that's a Jesus saying something, but it does lend credence to the idea that he did have women within his circle, because that's not the kind of thing. You know, it's highly patriarchal those days, and you know, to have women within your circle. I mean that just pretty much brought your whole message in your group down.
It's like, look, he's comboarding with women. We can't take him seriously. And the fact that that's recorded is very like, oh okay, like if somebody were just making that up,
you wouldn't probably wouldn't have made that up. I think Jose that says that, like a women's testimony was only worth half a man's in court in those days, so you wouldn't have women, especially as the witnesses like to the resurrection or the resurrection whatever, you know, whatever happened, but unless something went down, you wouldn't have put the women there unless something actually happened and the women were there to witness it. So it's stuff like.
That's a good point.
Yeah, that's more or less. That's how that's known as the criterion of embarrassment. And there's other ones, you know, but we don't need to talk about historical Jesus criteria. It's very boring. Yeah.
Yeah, well look, I mean you had mentioned about so you believe that you can you describe what you mean whenever you say the word gaya, like you just think that that's kind of everything, all encompassing.
No, no, not all everything, all encompassing is it's sort of the material universe what gya is is, or it's easy to explain, like this, Our ability to speak to each other, to be alive, to communicate, to have special meaning, that is guya. Oh, that's what guya is now. Our ability to use our consciousness and our life to make decisions to better ourselves that is hectay. And should those
decisions actually make us better or worse? Well? That is seriously so it is life and consciousness choice and the evolution or de evolution based on those choices.
Oh wow, okay, okay, interesting, Yeah, that is interesting. I never thought about looking at it that way, but it does check out. How did you come to that.
Eating a lot of mushrooms and drinking a lot of ayahuasca and talking to the goddesses and just asking them what do you think about this? Does this work? Like? Am I wrong here? And yeah? Sometimes I like, yeah, you're a totally pull of shit, like that's not how we do it at all, you know, And other times like yeah, you're you're kind of getting there, And other times it's just like yeah, they just say hey, like like.
This, Oh my god, I gotta believe it.
We had this. We had this guy on that uh that runs an ayahuasca clinic. I guess you could call it in where was it, like South America somewhere, and man, he was Columbia, that's right. And he was like, man, you guys got to try it. And we were like, I don't know, dude, that shit seems scary to us. You know, I can't because it's it's like a two or three four day process and you're you're tripping balls for how many hours? And I'm like no, no.
No, no, no no. So you do, like yeah, most of the time, you do iahuasca three nights in a row, which is convenient for me because I have three main goddesses of my pantheon, so I can invoke one each night pretty much. It's like this mushrooms showed me that the goddesses, in God's entities, all of it is real.
Ayahuasca is the entity incarnated inside yourself, inside your soul like that, Like ayahuasca is the goddess incarnate, like you take like entheogenic in its purest form, you are taking the divinity inside you through the beverage, and it is Wow, it's phenomenal. I mean, I have a whole protocol. When I do it, like I do a lesser mystery before each night with each goddess, Like I get real witchy with it.
That's awesome. Yeah, we looked up We love looking at like certain etymologies of words and whatnot, but looking up the etymology of Anthea, which is literally just like n is within and then theos is god, so it's kind of like the god within, and so it's crazy how it's literally built into the word that is used to describe that substance and super cool. We've had some crazy experiences on other psychedelics as well, but we actually said no more psychedelics in twenty twenty six. We're going to
we're going full send in twenty twenty seven. But twenty twenty six we're like, all right, we got to take a break. We'll just get high in meditation or something like that.
We're going to meditate. We're gonna you know, really try to understand our own mind for a bit, you know, because don't get me wrong, you know, we had some really good times and there was some really good insights and really ego shattering stuff, you know, and realizing like, oh, you know, this this thing is just so much bigger than I thought. And I'm also I'm that as well,
you know. And that was like a huge thing for me to just like really realize because for so long I felt like I was somehow separate from everything else that was me and then there was just everything outside of me as a whole separate thing. But when you realize that it's all just this one big thing and you're just a piece of it, like that was a
huge thing for me. And I got that for mushrooms, you know, and uh but yeah, but then we had a really really scary time and that was oh man, it was it was somewhat of a death initiation of sorts, Like that's what it felt like. It was like one of those things you just don't come back the same ever again. But but actually it did changes for like the better. Oh yeah, I was back at it fondly. Now.
Oh yeah, did you do it in like a savored like a ritualized context.
But yeah, it was just in my living room. Yeah, that's probably where we went wrong.
But I mean I always just recommend to people like if you're having bad trips or anything like that, uh you know, like cast a circle, like keep any kind of negative entities away. Look like, first and foremost, recognize that you are opening doors, you are opening portals, Like so if that's not something that you're gonna be comfortable with or you think that can just be easily dismissed
once the trip ends. Sometimes, like people will report just like shitty things happening, either while they're tripping or immediately like within a day or two after, like something horrible happened. And I'll always ask like, well, did you do it in a ritual Settingly of the time they say no, They're like.
No, we were in Shawn's living room. It's like, could.
You describe a little bit more of a sacred setting?
Though?
Now you said the circle and everything, but is there anything else that you set up beforehand?
Oh dude, Yeah, like when I do when I eat mushrooms or drink I was It's like there's like a whole thing. So I mentioned before, like I said, like, I'll do a lesser mystery. What I mean by that is, I'll like do like a smaller just magical spell without what I call a sacra medicine, which would be like an entheogen, because some people call them sacraments. What that which they are. Some people call them medicines with that which they are, so I say sacra medicine because I
think that that term suits them. So I'll do the lesser mystery without any sacram medicine. And yeah, they'll be depending on what Goddess I'm invoking, I'll use difference. I' let's say I'm invoking sears. The things that I will burn an homage like cannabis is one of her sacred plants, even though not technically a plant, but ndma is also sacred to seriously, so I'll burn a little ndma as well, And but I won't take any you know, I'll usually
play a song on my guitar. I'll sing to the goddess again, and they'll just be more prayers and chants in Latin and things like that. I mean, I can get my spell book out and read to you with you know, but again it's it might not be all that interesting.
Oh my god, you go all the way out. That's how I don't like. I believe that that's probably how it's supposed to be done, and that's probably how a lot of the ancients used to do it as well.
I mean, you think, like think about it, Like how you just said, like you call it a sacrament or a medicine, and how many different religions talk about a sacrament, right, And I feel like a lot of this stuff maybe you wouldn't even notice is going on without the sacrament, right, Like without the mushrooms, without the d MT or the ayahuasca or whatever. That causes you to be blasted off
into this kind of newer state of awareness. Yeah. I And that's where you know, we've talked about like ergot being found in the in the bottom of some chalices and whatnot. Do you think that they actually were like tripping balls back in the day, not necessarily tripping balls like in a fun party sense, but tripping in order to access the divine.
Yeah, I mean that's that's the way I do it. Like anytime I eat mushrooms or drink ayeuasc, I'm doing it to access the divine. I think that that's at least for me, I think that that's really what they're here for. Like the the mental health and psychological aspects of it cannot be denied without a doubt, and I'm a big fan of that stuff. But for me, I mean, like the true power, like psyche it's in the mystical realm,
it's in the spiritual realms. It's it's conversing with entities and goddesses and bringing that that that timeless wisdom back into your own life as best you can, because it's hard, you know, being a human pain in the as.
Yes, Oh dude, it's the worst. But I'm just kidding, it's not that bad. So whenever you say that you're conversing with you know, gods and goddesses and stuff like that. Whenever you're in your psychedelics, can you kind of walk us through exactly what is going on now? Of course, this is not happening outside of you, right, Like, this is going on almost in your mind's eye is where these conversations are being had.
Yeah, yeah, for the most part. Yeah, you want me to describe. I actually like if you're like, I can do that for you. Hold on a second.
Yeah, it was. I just want to try and get the mental image because I think that a lot of people have experienced a lot of really out there things on psychedelics, but I've I personally, I've I've never seen an entity or anything like that, Like while I was on psychedelics, I've I heard and I felt one, which was really strange, but I never saw one like in my mind.
Okay, so this I mean, let me get uh take dude. Okay, so I mean this will probably take about two minutes, if that's okay. I don't you know, I don't want to take too much.
You know, that's what we're here for.
Okay. So it's funny you asked me this because I'm I'm, like I said, I'm actually working on a book right now on these things. And I just finished a part where I am I just drunk my second dose of ayahuasca, having performed the Lesser Mystery to Hecita, And this is the experience of pushing past hyperspace into the mystical realm and meeting Hecita.
Is that that sounds awesome?
Yeah?
Hell yeah, Okay.
I laid back on my mat and closed my eyes. I started to feel that old familiar rumble in my stomach. Not a vomiting, no, a feeling of the ever growing awareness of divine presence, a presence that is not asking attention but desiring reception, something far beyond the entities of hyperspace, far beyond the elf clown's genius, which can certainly mimic profundity, but never quite sustain it. The music began to catch up with my desire. At first, it was subtle. The
ecodos were already flowing through Morgan That's my friend. Where we did this through Morgan's living room, weaving that familiar serpentine path through the ceremony space. I had been listening, intentionally, letting them wash over me like the gentle current of a river song. But something shifted. The rhythm no longer moved around me. It moved through me, merging with that ever growing glow in my stomach. I felt myself slipping into an energetic alignment with the music, as if my
inner tempo had locked into its pulse. Only now I wasn't just listening. The melody started to penetrate my body. The more I concentrated, the more the sacred rhythm intensified in my bone, matter, in my cells. The chanting grew louder, richer, more insistent. As the room began to expand beyond its physical boundaries, Walls softened, corners dissolved, the air became an instrument. I sat up and looked around the room. My friends, the other participants, the Iowa sceatos, all composed of strings
vibrating at different intensities. I laid back down on my mat, closed my eyes and closed my eyes excuse me, and returned to hyperspace. The strings were there too. I was now seeing the outline of hyperspace based on how the strings were interacting in Morgan's living room, the thought forms, the body plans that terrain the stars and galaxies. The strings themselves started to crack. With each deliberate focus of intention, the sound amplified, not merely in volume, but in presence.
The music began to feel less like sound more like force, a summoning force. That's when I felt it, the upward pull. I started to lift out of hyperspace, as if it were only a membrane, a shivering intermediary between worlds. The einsoft ore which is a cabalistic term, and I was being drawn toward the einsoft which is another cabalistic term. The seemingly infinite missival reality, so crystalline and iridescent and glorious, supporting the machinery of hyperspace, which in turn pours its
psychic essence into materialism, came into view. All cracks began to tear, the strings, hyperspace, the darkness of the outer regions, All of it split open, like billion year old fabric under strain. That familiar blackness punctured by stars gave way
to something entirely different. Thousands upon thousands of multicolored gems suspended in impossible death depth, not floating so much as radiating in their own existence in at that moment, a consecrated truth, a culta scientia, announced itself with absolute clarity. Music brings the Goddess. Music brings the Goddess. I began chanting slowly, each word falling perfectly into the rhythm of the eco. The gems began to soften, their edges, blurring,
melting into one another as if heated from within. Music brings the Goddess. Colors emerged that had no conceivable name, Hues that do not exist on any earthly spectrum, splattering across my perception like molten rainbows. Music brings the Goddess. My stomach broke open, gushing cool breezes of weightless ecstasy throughout my older body. This was something old, clean, deep
and holy. Music brings the Goddess. The colors enveloped me, saturating my awareness until any distinction between seeing and being seen started to fray. The music started to bleed into sounds of unearthly tambre. I was no longer hearing the ecoos. The melody had transformed into something vast, grand and resonant, angelic,
a harmonic architecture reverberating across every threat of existence. It wasn't coming from anywhere, it was everywhere, a divine resonance that had been playing since the beginning of time, waiting for consciousness to tune into it, the coronation hymn for the cosmos itself. This was the melody that has pulsed through reality ever since that first beat, when Gaya detached from God, when different differentiation began, when time itself was born.
The tempo that shaped worlds through eons of light, the cadence that governs incarnation. This was the heralding of Hecate. As the music found residential pockets in every inch of air, my visual field shifted again. Bits of round sky and space turned upward, coalescing into a massive black and white checkered mound. It rose rapidly skyward, bringing all of reality with it, swallowing nearly my entire field of vision. The pattern pulsed in time with the music, as if each
square were a note in a sacred symphony. From above, vines of the richest, most luminous green cascaded downward, draping themselves over the growing checkered mound, like living ornamentation. The divine music intensified its rhythm, sculpting the form taking shape before me. From its bulky middle, two thinge gelatinous shafts emerged, slowly rotating outward like the blades of a ceiling fan. As they lengthened, they thickened, gaining definition, taking on the
unmistakable contours of arms. Within moments, those arms had tipped into hands, each containing only three fingers. Out of each hand grew two long shafts, whose tops burst into solar flares. As the flames grew, the light unlocked deeper levels of the space. All around me, geometric patterns, angels, or at least what I interpreted as such, and other spiritual beings of nothing more than splashes of light and lustrous colors, looked upon this strange mortal Among them, there were whole
galaxies of them. Out of one of the three mounds, the one on my left hand side, thinned out and began to whip itself back and forth, adding a raspy, reverberating hiss to the rattles of the divine music. Another mound, the one on my right hand side, shook violently, releasing a roar that thundered across the skies. The central form
between his and roar inhaled, deeply exhale. I could see it, the skeletal architecture of three faces forming simultaneously a serpent, a lieon as a woman, bone, flesh and intension weaving themselves into expression, materializing like fruit of the most savage and savory knowledge. The outlines of eyes, noses, and mouths burned into the three mound tops, like sigils being carved
into reality itself. Then all three sets of eyes opened, Each pupil contained the brilliance of a thousand sons, each iris a million more.
She was here, hektay, Holy shit, that was awesome, amazing, Oh my god, I felt like I was in that journey with you, dude.
Yeah, honestly, like the way you described it. I started to trip a little bit. Not gonna lie, but it's, man, what that is crazy, that's exactly. And dude, all right, because I was thinking a million different things. Every time you said something awesome, I'm like, oh, that reminds me
of this. That reminds me of that. One of the things that you were talking about is that whenever you're coming in contact with all these different visuals and you're kind of becoming aware of what's really going on with it. Not to take it too far off track, but like whenever people talk about aliens being I don't know, bipede creatures that are walking around and or or pleadians or anything like that, like, and then I go into or we go into that psychedelic realm to where we're allowed
to perceive a lot more. I never see anything like that. It's a lot more like what you just described, you know, like and maybe they abstract and maybe they all exist there too, I don't know. But if they're coming from other dimensions or anything like that, I imagine it is a lot more seemingly to us in the third dimension to be a lot more abstract in the way that you describe, rather than something that is in our image.
Oh yeah, I mean, even the same goddess will show up in different ways. That, like, it's not like it's not a constant form either, because again we're we're talking about a like an energy, We're talking about a pulse here. You know that that are our minds are to some extent playing a role in how we shape that. Now there's nothing anybody can do about that, Like we're just we're stuck with that. I mean even just seeing each other,
like we see colors differently from each other. I mean, there's the same basic red shape, but there's gonna be slight changes in the hue that you know, you'll pick up on that I might not. So yeah, and with like so the last time I sat with Guya, I mean, it wasn't there wasn't a womanly figure there at all. It was just light like there, there wasn't there wasn't shape to it. It was just a light thing. But I knew it was Guya. I recognized it as such.
Did did Guya give off I don't know, some somewhat of a what we might call a personality?
Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it's a yeah, it's it's you're sort of your when I do certain spells and things, like I said, I do that lesser mystery it's to get my my antent ready to receive, because again, the mysical realm is fucking huge. I mean, there's all kinds of shit in there. You know, there's nothing of the size of hyperspace. But so you gotta be you know. I it's sort of like if you were to I won't say I write a letter because people don't do that.
If you would have send an email, right John, if you would have send an email to Sean, and let's say Sean's email was Sean one two three at gmail dot com. If you put Sean one to two at gmail dot com, your email's not gonna make it there because it's not properly addressed. So one of the things I used the Lesser Mystery for is to properly address the Goddess. And like that whole thing I read you like before that, which I wasn't going to get into.
But it's me discussing the Lesser Mystery and how I set it up so that I could meet Guya excuse me in this case hechotech.
Oh my god, now, just out of curiosity, just to take it to the next level here, if that's possible. Whenever you are in the same level of awareness with Gaya, What are you represented as to her?
You know, I don't like, how is guy of you and me? Is that what you're asking me?
Like?
What are you to that?
I think we're a recognition of life and consciousness of what she is actually embedded in a person or in a living or not a living, in a material form, because life, in a way and consciousness are immaterial things. Like you can't put consciousness in a jar. When you put it in a human being, you're actually seeing this higher form of consciousness in a material body.
M Oh my god, can't put consciousness in a jar, but when you do, it becomes the jar.
Yeah, exactly like that.
Yeah, dude, oh man, that is I love it because I, like I said, I mean, I've only ever experienced what may seemingly be abstract in that realm. Now, the first time I ever did DMT, not the second time, I'm not gonna speak of that, but the first time I ever did DMT, I was like out floating, seemingly floating in the universe, and I saw what looked like Saturn. I don't know if it was Saturn or not, but
it looked like the rings around a planet. And I saw this golden ball that it had like a bunch of I don't know, different kind of writing all over. It could have been Egyptian, could have been Chinese. I don't know what the fuck it was. It just seemed like archaic almost, And and but in front of me there was like all these like I don't know, they kind of look like pole noodles or if you ever seen like outside of cell phone stores they got the
blowing machine. Yeah, the stated blowing machine. It looked like a shitload of those that were obstructing my view so that I couldn't see Saturn right. So but I was able to push those to the side, and I was able to see Saturn and within the rings of Saturn, which it didn't look like dust particles or anything like that. It almost looked like plasma or fluid or something like that. And I saw that gold ball in there, and I
was like, oh, like, I don't know. In my mind, I was like, I wonder what that thing feels like. As soon as I had that thought, it was in my hand and I'm holding this ball. It's like no bigger than a softball, and I'm holding it, and it was, for some reason the most mystical experience I ever had, and I still don't know why, and I don't even
know what the reason for it was. But have you ever experienced anything like that to where you're just like, you're just experiencing this weird, abstract shit, but for some reason it is so emotional and so meaningful to you, and then you don't know what to do with that information in the real world.
Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know that I've had when the one I'm thinking of is you were asking the question. I don't know that I had an emotional attachment, but it was it's sort of adjacent to your story. I was in I was in hyperspace and I had actually gotten there on mushrooms. It was the first time
it ever happened. And there was this pentagram that kept unfolding and then refolding back as the golden ratio, just over and over, and it was so cool, and I know, like it kept trying to tell me something about that, but like unfortunate, I'm a humanity's guy. My math is nonexistent. So it was like one of those situations was like, God, I'm too dumb to understand what this this thing is trying to tell me like it's so cool, and I
know it's trying to tell me something. It's definitely trying to communicate, but I don't understand its language at all.
It's interesting that you bring that up. But we were talking about ducktails and all of that. There was an episode or maybe it was a movie. I'm not sure, but it was one of those Disney ones or whatever, but they were actually teaching you about like magic right, and and the pagram and the golden ratio. I remember all of that was thrown in there, and it was just like, you know, so it's like, I don't know, maybe there is something to that as far as like
someone else is picking that up putting it down. You know, we're they're showing us and you know, and then we're having these crazy experiences and oh yeah, I hearse something to.
It when I but when I first started eating mushrooms, like when I was about eighteen years old or so, like I was like convinced like, oh yeah, this is like where they get ideas for cartoons like the Smurfs that they live in mushrooms or that Mary'll get the mushrooms. Now I don't actually know, but for me, it's just at all, you know, locked in perverting place.
But that's that's kind of what I think about when it comes to like the the divine nature of things, or even the the idea of God or or something so so much more powerful than we are outside of us. I feel like maybe mushrooms and things of that nature brought that on. Like what came first, you know, God or psychedelics right, Like I don't know. I'm like right there right now.
I think that what what what things like mushrooms, ayahuasca, da torah, eboga I find at least for me, I think that those that's essentially how God speaks directly to us and gives us that direct experience of like for me, it becomes undeniable, especially with like five me O d m T. If I was ever if there was any ever, any hope for me to be an atheist, like I can't because of five HEMEO d m T. It's just impossible, like experience, Yeah, I can't know it.
That's a shout out to the toad.
Got out to the toad absolutely, And you know, if somebody were to say to me, oh well, it's just a drug experience, it's like I feel so bad for you, Like because you you don't you not only don't know what you're talking about, but because you are having arrogance about it, you are never going to actually see this. It was like going back to when we were just talking about magic earlier. I forget News said there was a quote, but it's like, if you don't believe in magic, you're never gonna find it.
Yeah, you'll never experience it.
Yeah, you're never Yeah, you'll always come up with an excuse why it's something else. And in fact, I was talking to do you know what, Peter Bogosian. Yes, So he's a friend of mine and we had dinner one night and we were talking. He's an atheist and he wrote a book called a Manual for Creating Atheists, and I was like, oh, that's funny. I'm writing a manual for how to create more psychedelic witches. And so he was asking me, you know, well, what is my method
for error correction? Like and that's a great question, like how do I know if I'm right or wrong about this stuff? And very excellent question. I have a few answers. First and foremost, if I were actually making up these goddesses, they wouldn't look how they look when I see them. I don't know if you how old you guys are, but you might some of your listeners might be familiar with the band Lords of Acid from the nineties.
Okay, yeah, I'm thirty five, so that's okay.
I was born in ninety just yeah, just a little before your time, just slightly. Anyway, if you were to look up Lords of Acid Voodoo, you you'll see these Coop Devil girls. If I were making up Guy a Hecata and seriously, they'd be fucking they'd be looking like those devil girls, just saying like that's first and foremost.
What was the name of the song?
Oh, the album is called Voodoo the oo D I think oo dash and just the letter you gotcha?
All right?
Yeah, I want to pull that up. Oh it has like the two Devil chicks on it.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people have it's it's it's a they're like the Coop is the name of the artist. It's a pretty famous. Uh. I guess we're doing a screen share here. Yeahs exactly. Anyway, if I were making up Gaya or they'd be looking like that.
Oh hell, yeah, you figure rut hanging.
Out of the mouth and everything. You know what I'm saying. Second thing is that they say things to me that I wouldn't have made up, Like I'm not. Look, one of the reasons I do history is because I'm not that creative. Like there are things that I've seen that I can't I don't have the ability to think of this stuff. When I've asked my God said, oh is this is like this practice? Okay, like when you asked me earlier, you know, like where do I how do I come up with this? It's like I ask them.
Sometimes they say, yeah, I'm doing it right. Sometimes they say I'm doing it wrong. So like if I were making it up, wouldn't it just be all the way one way or all the way the other way? Like every time? You know, and it's just another thing. And this is the hardest part for people. You guys will understand it, but people who haven't had like that deep
endeogenic experience won't get this. When you're speaking to an entity, you can tell that it's not your thoughts because you don't know what it's going to say any more than Jonathan Jean any more than I know what either one of you are about to say. And when I'm in that space, like, yeah, my brain will get like bifurcated, triforgain. I could see like different areas of where my thoughts are. But when I'm talking to God, it's not coming from me.
And unless you've been there, it's very difficult, and I can understand why somebody would be skeptical. But if you have actually been in that space, you would know what I mean when I say that, you know when it's coming from something else and when it's coming from you.
Yeah, when it shocks you. You know, when it's almost startles you because you weren't even really expecting it. I've had that before where it was like WHOA, what was that?
You know?
One time it was made me feel kind of uneasy because it was one time where it said something and today I don't remember what it was, but it was only a few words, you know, And then all of a sudden, it was like this laughter, you know, not like a I don't know, like a friendly person laughing at you or laughing with you, but like like almost a maniacal kind of laugh. And I was like, oh, like kind of scared the shit out of me. And I know that that wasn't me for sure? Why you know, like,
why would I do that? I mean, sure, you can argue that, well, you know, you go to sleep at night and you have a nightmare, and that's you doing that to yourself or that's coming from you, or at least that's what most people would think. But when I heard whatever that was, and it was so distinctly not me, like I know exactly what you're talking about.
Sure, but yeah, sure, up to your point, when you wake up, Like so when that happens, is that true? Like you haven't that make you wake up? Do you have any questions to whether or not you just had a nightmare woke up and it came from inside you?
Do I have any questions? As far as say that again, I'm sorry, Do you.
Have any questions that it was all just a dream?
No?
No, of course not, because it was just a dream. When you're actually talking to an entity, it's a totally different thing.
Well, and that's the thing too. When I heard that laugh or whatever, I wasn't asleep, you know, I was just in like a really deep meditative, almost asleep type mindset. So yeah, it was super strange, man, It kind of scared me. I was like, what was that? You know? And that was it. It didn't do anything else after that. You know, maybe it knew it spooked me a little bit and was like, oh I went too far.
You know.
Good thing.
Don't you think though that dreams and nightmares and psychedelics they they kind of cross swords a little bit, though, wouldn't you say, Like you're putting yourself in a state of mind to be able to perceive something other that you otherwise wouldn't be right, It's kind of similar.
Well, I mean I sometimes do it on purpose, like with omini a muscaria. That's the famous red top white spotted mushroom. You see them in fairy tales and smart houses and.
All that reindeers love them? Was that the reindeer love them?
Yeah, the reindeer do love it. I love them too. I eat omnia like three times four times a week, like for a dream. Yeah no, because it's seriously like so again, like there is there are medicinal benefits to all of these medicines. Like without medicinal benefits of medicines, that's redundant. But you know what I'm saying, Like there
are absolutely medicinal benefits to them. But what I'm hoping to sort of help like people understand better is like there are occult parts to these things as well, and why you can use Omnium muscaria both to micro dose. It's great for micro dos and and just like it has great somatic effects, like if you have aches or pains on your body, it's great for that as well.
But it's true power rests in the dream realm because when you take omni like I take om need to Mascaria before bed, especially sometimes I'll make a potion of Omanito, Mascaria, mug wart and blue lotus, and the dreams are so they're lucid, they're vivid, They're saturated with symbolism and meaning I can have like I could fly whenever I want, and flying dreams are the best and Omanita flying dreams are phenomenal because when you wake up, you don't feel like, ah,
show that was a dream with Dominiti, Like fuck, I was just flying last night, like like seriously, it feels real.
It's so cool, bro, we're.
Talking just Dominitamyscaria, blue lotus, and mug wart combined into one thing. I can't even that sounds awesome.
Night.
Yeah, and I love that you're taking it right before you go to sleep so that you can experience this kind of stuff within a dream.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a whole like so the the the mixture, it's five grams of mugwort, five grams of blue lotus, and eight grams of Omnium scaria.
Oh okay, I know that Amininum ascaria is very different from other kind of psychedelic mushrooms, like as far as the the experience goes. So eight grams of it is not like a heroic dosage by any means, right, No.
Yeah, that's yeah, exactly like eight grams of amanita is I mean, I would say it's kind of equivalent to maybe half an eighth of psilocybin. Oh okay, that split in eighth with a body and you sort of kind of like you have one foot in like you're tripping.
But it's not like a total Broiders are a little bit different. The sunlight's coming in a little bit rainbowish colors.
Yeah, but yeah amanita, Yeah, about eight grams, you're looking at that between five and eight of course, depending on you know, body size tolerance.
All that stuff gets factored in as well. But whereas for like a breakthrough with Almanita, you're looking at between like ten closer to fifteen grams.
Okay, Now, if I remember correctly, you're a you. You go out and forge these yourself, right, Oh man, what just out of curiosity, what state are you living in?
I live in Oregon. I live in Portland, Oregon. I go to the coast.
Okay, so that's like pretty prominent towards that way.
Then, Oh yeah, they're all over the place out here. I love It's one of the reasons, you know what. I'm born and raised in New York, and I gotta tell you, man, I did not like the rain at all. Now that I've lived in Oregon for going on ooh eleven years now, now I love the rain because when it rains, I know that it's just bringing mushrooms.
So I love that. Yeah, you know what, Tom, it is. It's funny because you were talking about I wanted to mention something like we were talking earlier about how we can't find a common denominator as far as like what people believe in all of that, Like can we all just agree that flying in dreams is the best thing, you know, Like we all. Nobody's like I don't want
to fly in my dream. Everybody loves thefing like that's the number one thing we want to do as soon as we realize we're lucid, exactly if you can become lucid. I feel like I haven't had a lucid dream, and I don't even know how long.
I'minate a mascar and my friend all right, all right, dominated mascall, they'll clear that right up.
All right.
I need to find if any of that grows in the South. I live in Texas. I can't. I mean, do you think that that grows anywhere other than the moist right outside of Houston?
So I guess, So is that more central uh?
Eastern Mari?
Yeah, because you're closer to Louisiana, right, yes, Okay, no, you you there, there's a you might be able to find some ominida. So the thing about the United States is funny, is Amanita is pretty prevalent everywhere except there's this one scary strip from essentially like North Dakota down
where there's just no amanita at all. Because that's we're all like the plains and the grasslands and all that shit, you know, the cornfields and everything, and then you get down into Texas, it's getting into desert, so you don't have the omnita for that whole stretch, that whole vertical stretch.
Okay, so they're like pretty prominent in Louisiana. Then oh yeah, oh my god, Louisiana tomorrow.
So Louisiana is the only state in the United States where domini and mascaria is illegal. State.
Yeah, they haven't even legalized weed over there yet. I'm like, what are you doing, dude? Come on really, yeah.
Wow, get on board with like the twenty first century.
I mean, they don't give a fuck when anybody does for Marti Gras, but you know, three hundred and sixty two other days out of the year it's illegal. You know, it's it's crazy.
They were smoking marijuana cigarette.
Smoke two joints in the moment.
I used to I used to. For whatever reason, I can't smoke weed anymore. Like it's just like not agreeing with me anymore. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what the deal is.
It's just as much as I used to. I mean, I feel you, man, I used to be Yeah, like smoke two joints in the morning and like, what a joy to be in my twenties, right, But I can't do that anymore. Yeah.
I felt like you could just wake up and just smoke and just get to the level and go like, oh I feel great, I feel good. I when to go and just enjoyed the rest of my day. Now it's like anxiety and stress and like, I don't know.
Man, I'll just get retired too soon, Like I won't get anxiety or stress. I'll just be like and I don't I like to I like cannabis, like saving it for at night. I don't know. I just think it's better.
Mm hmm.
I just like that.
Oh yeah, Now just to go back to the Amanador real quick, because I'm super curious about this since I'm going there tomorrow. Is there any because I know that forging for mushrooms can be a bit dangerous because a lot of the mushrooms look very similar and you don't know if you're getting the good guy or the poisonous kind. Is there a look alike with Amanita muscaria that you shouldn't touch, or if it looks like Amanita, it's okay.
So the awesome thing about the Omanito mascaria is that there are no deadly lookikes. Okay, nominido mascaria does not look like any other there's it's either an ominio mascari or it's not. Now, there are varieties within amanita, so I think that. But in Louisiana, you guys would get the amanita muscaria var persissina. I think that's what's around there, which might have more of a like an orange or
yellow flare to it. Like around here we get the amanita, we get muscaria, but we also get uh ominito mascaria var formosa. And there's another one. I forget what it's called, but anyway, the foremost is like way more orange and yellow. There's also the panther cap is around here that's brown. But the ones that will kill you, like the the omanito wirola. It's a totally white mushroom. There's no red, there's no color to it at all. Like you can't
miscake anything, you can't escape for anything. I said, I think, I said, we're roll I met weirosa excuse wosa. The amanita floides is the same thing, like it's like this piss yellow brown color and you look at it and you wouldn't want to eat it, you know. Right, So there's there are a few deadly ones. But again especially with the amanito mascari itself like the bright red there's
no other mushroom that looks like it. And with the other varieties that like with Amanito, the ones that are going to kill you don't look like an omnitum mascari at all, whereas the ones that are still edible, they'll they'll kind of look like the dominitum mascaria. They just might be a little bit more orange or a little bit more yellow.
You know what's funny is is that the Dominie muscaria it looks like it wants to be eaten, you know what I'm saying, Like it looks like a candy. It's almost like inviting you to eat it. I love it, I know, like it's it's it's its purpose to exist inside of you, to give you this experience.
You're making a grab my amanite and have a little bit because you're making me want of you.
Let's go.
It's crazy that that the earth makes mushrooms that will get you to see God and also mushrooms that'll just end you. Yeah, and then you see God.
Right, I agree? I I mean, these are more with Amanita, so like wow, with psilocybin mushrooms, Like I'm by my altar, I'm doing all my little witchy stuff. I'm no longer in my altar space. I'm in the other world with Amanita. What it does is it brings the other world to me, like it enchants my whole space, and that's all. I love the Smiffero.
Chance, can you show us one of them? I don't know if I've ever actually seen one of those, like, oh.
Wow, interesting, Yeah, I've I've seen, you know, just the the top red and white caps, you know, like like you know in uh Super Mario and right, and how long do you got to dry those babies out for?
So you get a dehydrator and you just set it to one hundred and sixty five degrees before you go to bed. You wake up, they're.
Ready really okay? All right, I'm doing eight hours or so. All right, twenty twenty six might be off the table, Sean, I'm sorry if I find.
These things, hey do you dude? You all right? I mean, I'm just not ready.
I like the fact that you know, you can eat so much of them and only have like a quarter of a trip that's that seems fun to me.
I don't.
I don't need to blast off to you know, have a fucking near death experience to enjoy these kind of things.
No, I'm to the point where I don't really need my entire reality to just seem like chaos. You know, like I'm okay with like the different colors and you know, the introspective thoughts, but like, I don't need everything to just seem like it's closing in on me and I can't handle.
That's the thing, man, if you like with with ritual work, Like for me, psychedelgic experiences are not chaotic at all, Like they're really not. They're actually like very I mean, I don't know if sober is the right word or sobering, but they're very clear and like there's no there's no I don't have like much like a lot of questions about them. There's no trickery with them, like I've heard
some people say, like, oh, mushrooms are tricksters. It's like, no, they're not not for me, Like they they've always been gentle and kind and open to sharing their wisdom, right you know.
Yeah, that's how it seems okay, I'm sorry, No, go for it.
Go for it.
I was just gonna say, usually that seems how it how it is like you you, it's you seem very clear and and and like just alive, and like everything else seems much more alive. And and I've had those experiences like what you're trying to describe, but this last time like going up, like when the when the roller coaster was starting to go up, and I was really starting to like lose track of what I knew to be familiar, you know, like that kind of would just
was just shedding away. And so like we were in my backyard and I got some weeds growing, you know, and the breeze was blowing a little bit, and everything just seemed like too it was just too much, you know to take in.
To be fair, it wasn't mushrooms. It was for a C O D M T. But it's like adelic experience.
I guess, wow, yeah, ok, yeah, but but so yeah, it was. It was it was just and what the way that I can explain that, or at least how I see it is that like everything that I knew to be familiar, like the the models within my mind that tells me what things are without really having to
think about it. You know, it's it just is it's already kind of in my programming or my mind, all of that was going away, and so now it's just like all of this information that my mind feels that it has to try to process and and kind of not figure out but get refamiliarized with what's happening, you know what I'm saying. And so everything was just like, dude, I was talking to him. Jonathan was keeping me cool.
He's like, ah, you're good, dude, don't even worry. And I was like, yeah, dude, I don't know, man, this is just too much. And I was looking up and I was I was just tripping basically, you know what I mean. But after that I calmed down. You know. It was just it was just going up the roller coaster. Once I got up there, I was like, Okay, I'm good, you know, but it was good.
Shit, dude, that's a lot of people like I've been there too, sometimes like back in the day that hasn't happened a long time. But yeah, like the come up can be a little like oh shit, you know, like ring yeah, like because did I do it right? Like did I step on the wrong cosmic toes or like like am I like, am I going to be welcome this time? And we always are? I mean at least I always am. And I don't know.
Yeah, I mean after that, it was fine, you know.
Yeah, but yeah, I just let that worry. Like I know that. Believe me when I say I know that feeling very well, but I I found that it just I was making myself uneasy for no reason. Yeah, because every time when I finally break through to your point, Sean is like, oh, it's always awesome. Yeah, And so I finally just got to a point where I stopped all together, even having like allowing that worry to come, because it's always fucking awesome once you get to the other side.
Yeah, once you get to the other side, like all of the models are still kind of gone, but you're comfortable with there now and now you just get to joy observing things almost for the first time, and you could just space right.
Yeah. It's it's kind of like getting into like a pool that's either a little too hot or a little too cold, but after you're in there for a little bit, your your body's adjusted and you're like, Okay, this is fine, you know, mm hmm.
Yeah, it's a it can be a full on mystical experience once you cross that home, you know.
Yeah, exactly. And that's what I'm always shooting for, is I want the fall out. Like I don't do this stuff if not for the mystical experience. I wouldn't like if it didn't have that aspect of it, I would not eat mushrooms ever. The reason too.
Yeah, if it's just to see pretty colors, I'm like, Okay, I'll put on some fucking weird colored goggles or something like that, but.
Just go for a hike. I mean, just go sit over and look out on a sunset, on a landscape. I mean you'll get a I mean I'll get absolutely a feeling of transcendence from that. I love that. Or on the beach or just like on a on a like beautiful summer night if you're down like where you are South. But it's like I'll be in Florida and it's like the moon is fucking huge, and I don't know, like just seeing it go down on or come up rather or both, depending on what kind of drug you're on.
Just it's always, I don't know, it's just beautiful.
The drug. That's the thing that I find very interesting and very important about it is that it reminds you how amazing and how beautiful things are, you know, because we just get so used to it, you know, Like you don't sit there and think about, oh, the moon is just going around and like we're in space or whatever.
The true reality of the situation is, right, You never really fully think about that until you get to this point, you know, and you start really thinking maybe you have an awakening and then you have some psychedelics and then you're just like you're just part of that and it's just so amazing, you know. And I think most people just kind of get used to that and they're just like, it's imagine seeing a sunset for the first time ever,
you know what I mean. But people get to see it every day, so it's no big deal.
Oh, just blissfully ecstatic, you know. And and just with all of your experience, not just with the psychedelics, but also the the the energies and the entities that you're connecting with, what do you think what do you think you actually are? Like, for example, where were you do you know? Have you ever gone and asked the question or experienced where you were before you were born.
Yeah, pretty much. That's where five vimeo DMT take.
Oh shit, all right, so do we just do we exist just as an energy and then we decide to come in incarnate as a human Like, what is that process to you?
I don't know. So here's from at least from my experiences with five emeo dmt Ayahuasa mushrooms, it seems to be that we are essentially it's like this soup and when before you were born and after you die, you're going to go back to this soup. Now do we choose how we incarnate? John that I have no idea. I don't. I don't want to say I don't think so because I truly don't know, so I'll just leave it as an I don't know. But we just your your consciousness, your solely whatever you want to call it.
It just it just comes from this thing, this place, and at some point it's just going to get shot out as something else in the universe. I mean. One of the things that when people talk to me about reincarnation and they like they're talking about having been on Earth in a past life, It's like, Wow, you really have no idea how big the goddamn universe is. Like if you think that, like, by the the luck of the draw, you ended up on Earth twice? Are you kidding?
You know how many fucking life forms are out there.
That you could have become infinite better odds of winning the lottery at that point?
Yeah, right, exactly. So I just think that's kind of odd. Uh. Yeah, So I don't know if I truly do believe in reincarnating. I guess in a broad sense I do, because that's the sense of what we're talking about. I don't believe
in it the way people talk about it. I guess, like I don't think that you were a fucking princess in your past life or whatever like that, you know, like that, I don't think, But I do think on a grander scale, Yeah, the essence whatever it is that's making you alive right now, like that thing that like when a person dies and like the fucking either the temperature or the pressure in the room drops because something just like whatever that is that goes back to the
soup and I get shot out at some point of something else.
Leave it up to a New Yorker to just call it a soup, you know, what I mean.
Yeah, now that's what I think it is too, dude, I'm right there with you. I think I've said the exact words, like it's a soup, you know whatever that is the all encompassing, the cosmic soup.
Yeah, yeah, which is all minds, all lives, all everything. That's where it comes from, mensis, yeah, everything, Like that's for me, that's what I would call God. Is that that bulk, that soup whatever we want to call it, that mass of just where everything springs from. You know. It's funny because like when when atheists talk about they'll say, like there's only material reality, you only know one reality.
It's like, dude, I know fucking at least three different realities beyond material reality, and one of them is the Godhead itself. The Godhead itself is a separate reality from the mystical or spiritual realm, which itself is a separate realm from hyperspace, which is a separate realm from you know, material existence where we are right now. They're different like ascending and descending like you know areas on material reality.
One hundred percent. There's no way this is all there is. And I think that a lot of people could probably attest to that in billions of different ways, just through their own experiences. Maybe they don't know, you know, to put it in those words, but everybody's experienced something that is not of this world, you know, seemingly not of this world. Maybe they just called an illusion, maybe they called a dream, maybe they called a nightmare, maybe they
called a trip. I don't know, but we've all experienced something along those lines that made you question if this is only all there is for sure?
So I got on a tangent I was talking about when I was having dinner with Peter Bagosian, and you just brought us back to the point I was trying to make. But then I went off into out of space with whatever the hell I was saying. But he was asking me whether or not I had a error corrective mechanism for my beliefs. It turns out he, as
an atheist, doesn't have that either. Like when like he's said like, well, well why, I said to him, like, dude, like if you like went outside and you looked and you saw and it was clearly like the sky split open and there was a voice said I am God, I am here. He's like, well, I would think I was under a misapprehension or I'd gone crazy. It's like, okay, so you don't have a er corrective method either, or you know, like for these questions anymore than a theist.
Does, right, because even if you were.
Shown it, you would still think it was something else. You wouldn't think it was a god. You would think it was whatever that you were hallucinating or something. So you don't have a corrective way of testing your beliefs either.
Right.
It's it's hard to put it into words because it almost seems like it can't be put into a box.
You know.
That's really the whole reason why anybody whenever people try and describe it, When people try and describe Taoism, they say the same thing. You can't if you're trying to describe the Dow. And if somebody says that they can describe the Dow, they got it wrong. It's that there cannot be a definition for something that is so beyond anything we could ever perceive.
Yeah, it's the meat brain, and that that is the problem of the meat brain. Like with five, the first time I did five and MEO DMT, I got to see all of space and all of time from the Big Bang, to that moment, all of it. But right now, because I'm in my meat brain, I can't see it, like I can't actually produce a memory of it, but I know I saw it. It's a weird sort of sort of like straddling two realities within my own brain. But just to sort of emphasize your.
Point, Jonathan, No, yeah, I know that, I know that feeling. It's that's why so many people come out speechless whenever they have ayahuasca or DMT, because it's like, oh my god, I saw I don't I don't know what it's called. I don't know how to describe it. I can't put it into words. And it's because it's it's too much. It's far too much, and it's fun trying to trying to, you know, describe it, but we can never do a justice.
My band has a song titled Bigger Than We Can Imagine, which is about that concept that is just it's bigger than we can even wrap our heads around, as much as we try to describe it.
Ah.
Yeah, dude, you said you saw the Big Bang and what I'm sorry.
So all of space and all like so essentially I the magician who gave me the five MEO said surrender and don't forget to breathe, and I took in a big hit and I exhaled, and as I exhaled, the smoke just essentially tore reality away, and I just saw just the big but like just all of space and time and reality everything just explode in that moment and create that soup that I was talking about, that all of reality is. And like it's not just like if
for earth bound. It's not just Milky Way Galaxy bound.
It's the whole and thing everything, And yeah, I just got to and now it's like I can sort of see it, like because I have that memory, but I can't actually produce fully the memory because I'm in my meat brain. And you gotta you gotta put the meat brain aside if you want to see the stuff.
Because see at the very moment that the smoke tore the tour everything in half and and showed me that, I would be like I did too much like in that in those two seconds of while I'm still kind of me, I'd be like, oh shit, no, that's.
The point, you know, Like I I this was so I was sort of it's weird. I was sort of dabbling with atheists. I don't know that I was ever fully an atheist, but I did get to a point where with mushrooms and I'm like, oh, like, am I just talking to myself? Is that with it?
Like?
Am I truly just making this all up? And five E meo DMT was my last ditch effort. I'm like, Okay, Like if I can't find that there is something real with this, because this is the end all be all. I mean, most people in my feel like we don't even call it a psychedelic because it's beyond that. I mean, it's the God molecule. That's what it really is. And so I'm like, well if it doesn't, if this doesn't do it, then nothing's going to it. Holy shit, it did it? Like Wow, did it do it? Like I
can't be an atheist. I just it's it would it would be like somebody trying to convince me that this isn't like a mason jar with like a quarter of amount of water.
And I was like, oh, like a clear, It's obviously it is.
Yes, it's obviously what it is.
Yeah, man, yeah, I might have to do some DMT at some point, Dude, I think that's just what I need, you know what I mean, Because I feel like I'm still like riding the offense of like, am I just being too deep with some of this stuff? Or am I you know what I'm saying? Is it all bullshit? Am I making it like how you were just saying? You know what I mean? Is it? Because I do
believe that our minds are very powerful. I do believe that we are capable of creating spaces and really becoming very immersed in these spaces, whether it's in a meditation or you know whatever practice. And so that's why I'm I'm I feel like it's very possible to create a reality in which the divine or a god or or something much larger and more powerful than I can even imagine exists, you know. And so I guess DMT might be the thing that I need to just kind of like just solve it, you know, just.
It's hard to crystallize it, I think without the experience.
Yeah, you know, because you know, we've had experiences where we where we've seen orbs, and and even then I'm still like I go back and forth on that as well. But but but lately I haven't seen any like at all, like in probably a couple of months now, you know, And so maybe if I have some d MT and then I know, then all of the other stuff just says, Okay, you know now, so you're gonna be able to experience everything.
What do you think is going on with all that ORB stuff? Like surely you've seen like videos or maybe you experienced it yourself, but like, what do you think is actually going on.
That I I don't know. In fact, I was just in Tupolo, Mississippi, filming a documentary about alchemists doing d MT. It's an area of study my good friend and colleague Pete Newman is wrapped up with and he told me he's like, look like, I don't know if like by ORBS you mean like you know, a fo's or anything like that. But he's like, dude, they fly over his house every night. Like I'm like, for really, It's like, yeah, look like every single night I went out, I was
there four nights. Every night, I saw like several UFOs, Like they're all over the place. I have no idea what they are, but I like they were clearly there and anybody that would go there, did you just look up You'll see them like it's not it's not like you don't need a telescope anything, Like they're fucking up there and they are moving in ways that you just you know, they just fucking fine then stop on a
dime and then slowly start to float up. We don't have anything that can do that, you know, like it's insane.
Yeah, yeah, And man I I it feels like a spiritual experience when you're seeing it, And maybe that's just how our minds work, you know, the the unexplainable, the unknown is always going to be somewhat of a spiritual experience, what do you think, of course.
And but there's also I think there's a part of it where like we've also been socialized to believe that if we have these experiences, we're either mistaken or we're crazy. And that goes back to the whole thing of like, well, if that's your if that's how you're going to frame it, then you're never going to discover anything with it or
through it. Like that's never gonna happen. And it's me looking up at the sky on no psychodeal is not on anything, like, not even on fucking beer, for Christ's sake, just looking up and seeing those goddamn orbs, like and they're like very far up there, and there's a bunch of them and you see them all flying around. It is like, what the fuck? Like, they're not satellites. They're not like you can tell when it's a satellite.
Yeah, these are not.
That's not what these are. So I don't know what they are. I don't really, I don't. It's weird. I had this. I had this bias against orbs because when I first heard of them, I didn't really trust the lady that was telling me about them. So I've sort of always had a bias about them. But again, looking up and I've seen them, like, you know, I don't know if they are, but they're they.
We're kind of all on the same boat when it comes to that. Then, you know, it's like we know they're there. You know, we've also all experienced it, but we don't really know what to do with it or what to call it or why it's there. You know.
Yeah, dude, you know we actually speaking of orbs. What We just had a conversation with a gentleman last night who won I don't know if you've ever seen or heard of this, but it's the the psy games, like p s I games about people who are able to essentially use their their psychic abilities.
Yeah, I'm familiar with SI. I know what you're talking about.
So they had like the Olympic SI Games last year and he was he got first place and so talking I didn't know that, dude, fucking crazy. It's awesome. It's the first time they ever did it. So he's the
he's the inaugural champion. So it's it's pretty uh one for the record books, you know, Ellieah, But do you think that through the use of psychedelics or through the use of ritual and and everything that you kind of work with, do you think that your psychic abilities have you know, gotten better or worse or do you feel more connected to this reality to where maybe you can influence things just with your thoughts or your energy.
I will say this, the the only thing that I can that I'll say absolutely has been dream divination with Omanito Mascary. I've had a few dream divination omanitomscary experiences that that cannot be explained like any other way, that are just like two almost impossible to Like this past summer, I lost my business. I lost my community, I lost
my livelihood. I had the mob come after me. Fucking The night before it happened, I had a dream about it, so much so that I pulled out my phone and for the first time in my life, recorded my dream and then texted a friend of mine who was in the dream and said, Yo, this just happened last night. I need you to keep a lookout for this, that and the other thing. Wow, all it was. It would take a very long time for me to unpack all of this, but it was just that was the craziest
dream to the nation I've ever had. And and other things have happened as well. I had a really good one with a sort of a academic rival of mine where he kind of was just being awfuled towards me and just really not playing fair. And I had a dream of omannit it was an domanite, a flying dream where I was just flying over him. And it wasn't the next day, but it was like two days later. I just he I found out he just he got his come uppance in a way that just made me
feel fucking great. I'm not gonna lie, but those are the kinds of things like and answer your question. Like, uh, as far as I wouldn't call myself particularly psychic at all, I had had Okay, the first time I ever did ask that, I had a crazy psychic experience with a friend of mine who we were literally reading each other's thoughts, like we could see each other the word in each other's mind. It was in Yeah, that was when I was nineteen. I've never had anything like that ever happen. Again.
I mean, I've had cool things I got, like spirits and things like coming in that like other people also saw and like so Okay, in one example, I write about this in my last book. It's like the one sort of woo woo experience that I that I write about in this book because my publisher is like this major atheist public anyways, whatever. So the a few times ago when I did ayahuasca, I was actually I was with my friend Morgan, who when I was reading that
thing I said, I was in my friend. We weren't in her living room, we were in this other place and me her and this girl we didn't know got possessed by this spirit that just came into the room and the three of us got up at the same time off of our mats like I mean, like literally like whoop, like at the same time, went to the center of the room and started dancing around the altar and just like as this thing was possessing us and we the three of us, are looking at it as
it's doing it, and then it just let us go right back toward nets and it was like, yo, what the fuck? Like it was awesome?
What awesome?
Dude? Yeah, and everybody else with you was like yeah, did that just happen or like yeah, dude, that's the thing.
Everybody like they were like, I don't know, like fifteen sixteen other people in the room, Like it was a big ayahuasca circle, which I personally don't really it's not my favorite setting, but uh no, but there were a
lot of witnesses. Another time, so the second time I ever did ayahuasca, the uh the Iowa skeatta starts pouring out the dose right and I'm looking at her and there was this image like this like iridescent woman just appeared over her put her hand on the Iowa sca to pour more ayahuasca into the glass and so and I watched her do that. I so I take that
and anyway, so I have a great experience. Afterward, we're smoking mapacha on my back porch and the Iowa scare says to me, it's like, you know, by the way, like she said, with that second dose, I was worried that I was. I might have given you too much. He's like, but you don't understand. She's like, this hand came on top of me, and I was like, I saw that. I swear like there was a woman. She's like,
there was right. I'm like, yeah, like she was right over you and when you stop, she pushed your hand.
But she's like, yeah, that gave me chill. Yeah, that's incredible. See stuff like that, Dude, whenever I hear someone experience something like that, obviously I believe what you're saying, because now it's bullshitting, right, that was real.
It's not subjective anymore.
Right, No, exactly, it's it's not subject like we both experienced that when my friend Morgan and that person. I still I don't even know what that young lady's name was. Like, we didn't plan an if it, Like, we just started dancing around and we could all see it. Like I've watched an Iowa scaurow. This is kind of funny. Suck an evil spirit out of somebody's nose with his nose and then farted out his ass and we all watched it happen.
Like there were many witnesses to this, There.
Were many to that most sacred fart.
It's a hell of a technique, I will say.
Right.
You know, you do kind of feel like you're releasing the demon every time you rip one, so maybe there's something to it.
Not me, I'm releasing angels, baby.
All right?
So man, this has been so much fun and I have so many more questions, But I don't know how much are you in a hurry to get out of here?
Like I got a little more. I mean, it's up to you. Like I said, I would let it flow. If you want to let it flow, will let it flow. If you gotta go, you gotta go.
Perfect, all right? So okay, I I feel like there's been so many questions that have been flooding my mind and now it seems that they have escaped me. It's just part of podcasting in general.
But oh yeah, it's a real struggle. Like you think you have something you're gonna say, and then as soon as it's like, oh it's my time to shine right, and then it's all gone and all the words that just came out were just going on with that. No, you're good, dude, this is this is great. I appreciate you.
Yeah, yeah, especially for like just a fun conversation like this for you just want to try and be a sponge and smoke smoke uh soak as much information as humanly possible. I love it. Whenever you're experiencing, so you go to your altar uh under the influence of antheagens, and whenever you go there, you're specifically calling somebody out to communicate with said entity or said enter right, like you go into it for a reason every time, yep.
And what do you like, what is a typical reason to go into that to the altar to communicate with that specific entity? Can you give us an idea, like an example?
Okay, yeah, absolutely so. As I was saying, this past summer, I had like the worst summer of my life. I lost my business, my community, like my whole life got torn apart. A week after that happened, I had three nights of ayahuasca and what it looked like for me was I needed to now find out what the hell I was going to be doing with the rest of my life and how I was ever going to move forward, because again, just all of a sudden, my whole life
was just taken away from me. And so it was three nights and the first night I did my Lesser Mystery to the God is Searc and then later that night I did the Greater Mystery, which is when I actually take the sacra medicine, and I asked for her secret sacred word, which in this case turned out to be the word forgiveness. Now what I felt like at the time, and I didn't realize that I was wrong about this, was she was telling me that I needed to forgive the person who essentially ruined my life, or
at least try to. Turns out he didn't at all, But I was wrong about that. What seriously was actually saying was that you need to forgive yourself because everybody makes mistakes, and like what's going on right now isn't actually justified at all, So we're not going to help you out unless you learn how to forgive yourself. Next night was with Hekate, and same thing. I do the
lesser mystery beforehand. Then the Greater Mystery is actually taking the ayahuasca, and in this case, I've never I've never been comfortable in my body like ever in my whole life. And Hegate was like I kept trying to find her in the mystical realm, and what she was doing was she was testing me. She's like, no, I don't want to find I want you to find me within your body. She's like, I need you to actually start to like the body that you're in or I can't help you.
I can't do anything for you. And so I ended up doing this really insane like dance to like the I don't know. It was awesome and sort of just fell into my body for the first time in my life. And then the third night was with Gaya and essentially this was just healing the parts of myself where I had gone wrong, because in order to grow, you do have to acknowledge where you messed up. You have to be able to see your role when everything goes wrong, right, you.
Know, So.
It was I essentially I'll never. I was with Guya and this is when I had mentioned earlier. She appeared
as just light. It was just light, and I was standing next to her and she and I were together sort of like this holding this little baby that was essentially all of my traumas and fuck ups and gunk and shit, those parts of me, the shadows side, those parts of us that we reject, and we were just sitting there holding it, cradling it and giving it so much love, and in that moment, it's like, Okay, I am forgiving. I have to forgive. This is what cearsly said.
The sacred word is forgiveness. I have to forgive this little child because it doesn't understand all of the shit that it is, you know, like that that's been put on top of it. Hekit has now from night two given me that choice, and Guy it tonight night three
is allowing me to see that consciousness. And as I focused in on that little child of just shit and gunk and trauma and forgiving it, which would be forgiving myself, choosing that path, which was choosing the path for myself and seeing that consciousness that was my those parts of
myself that aren't the best anyway. In that moment, the archangel Michael came up behind us, Guy and I and just wrapped its wings around us, and I was just in this cocoon of angel wings, just forgiving this little baby of my traumas.
Oh my god, that's like transcendent shadow work.
So what you asked, right, was that your question, how does it work?
No, No, that's great. I love it.
Man's that's a kind of giveness that you don't take just take back, you know. That's like sealed the deal. You know.
Yeah, there was This other part was actually the first time I ever met Gaya and realized that guy was Ayahwaski incarnate. This was cool. She'd asked me, like, why did I have these just negative feelings about myself? And I went and inside my body and I showed her. I'm like, well, look at my heart. It's disgusting. And you know, looking at it, there was just like this like gunkin mud that looked like it was like over this rock kind of thing. And she's like, no, She's like,
that's not your heart at all. And she went over and she wiped it away and there was just this glass and underneath the glass there was this pristine heart and she's like, that's not your heart. She said, that's the protective layer I put over your heart to shield you from the evil of the world. It's like it just gets dirty. Sometimes we got to clean it off.
Oh my god, that is so awesome and and so
meaningful all of this. You know, I feel like especially in this day and age with social media and everybody's comparing themselves to everybody else, and a lot of people are very very materialistic and they find a lot of they think that they find a lot of meaning and the materialistic items until they're able to grasp them, and then it's like, well, what's the next materialistic item that can make me feel, you know, like I'm longing for something, But this is this is the root, man, So I'm
happy that you said that. That is That is great. One last question I have for you. Sure, it's it's a very easy question. I think that you'll have an easy time answering it. What is the meaning of life?
That's be happy and useful?
Be happy and useful, beautiful?
I love it.
Yeah, dude, that sounds about right.
You know.
That goes with pretty much what what everybody else says. You know that even the really just organizations and everything else, you know, just be of use and help. And yeah, I love that.
Man.
That's great.
So find that they feed each other too. The more useful you are, the happy you are. The happy you are, the more useful you're gonna want to be. And it's just a beautiful siple of camaraderie and friendship and just trying to make the world a better.
Place, the more energy to go around.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, just being of service. Well, look, every single episode we always do a Tarot reading at the end of the end of the show, and usually it in a weird way. It encompasses the energy of the show and one way or another, that's why we do it at the end, because we're just charging it up this whole time.
Right, we got two cards today. Usually we just do one, you know, just to make it simple or whatever. But I just decided to do two of them and this is the first one we got. The Three of Wand's all right, the Three of Wands. Are you familiar with Taro a little?
But yes, okay, we're the same. So we like to read from our handy dandy descriptive guide to hear the Three of Wand's adventure lies ahead of you as you expand into a new role or identity. You have plenty of support, filled with ambition and excitement. You're ready to expand into the next phase of your adventure. In the three of Wand's card, the man depicted in this card has his back turned, which means that as the viewer,
you see what he sees. He stands between two wands plants it in the ground while he holds the third one for support. He gazes out towards ships on the water, indicating the expansive nature of his dealings and suggesting that he works well with a team. The support of others allows him to conserve his energy without burning out and positions him to direct his considerable prowess towards big picture tasks. And so the upright key meeting for it would be
expansion and growth. It's kind of funny we were saying about how expansive everything is and pretty cool to have the support too, excellent.
And what was the other card?
The other card we got the World? Oh yeah, and we were just talking, you know, I mean, it fits.
All right, the World card. A cycle is complete, but the end is also a new beginning. Rejoice as the world rewards you for your hard work. You are ready to receive the rewards that come from completing the journey of the Fool, which culminates in the World card. The figure on the World card holds a wand in each hand like the magician, symbolic of what has been created. A wreath encircles her, indicating victory and success. You'll notice
similarities of the Wheel of Fortune card. A wreath is shown floating in the clouds, and the symbols of the fixed zodiac signs Aquarius for air, Leo for fire, Taurus for earth, and Scorpio for water are once again present, indicating these signs and elements where part of the hard work you put into completing this cycle. You will not go through a difficult time and come out empty handed. Celebrate the rewards that come from completion.
Hell, yeah, that is a great reading. What are you using a Marseilles?
Uh?
What deck? You use?
Just the right way?
Yes Smith, Yes, yes, so yeah, dude. It's it's been very helpful along our journey, just as far as trying to understand symbolism a little bit more and and getting to know what each color means and what each element means, and you know, the all the numerology and all that kind of stuff. You know, could never get enough of it.
It's been a bit of a synchronicity generator just for this show. Every episode it really tends to line up with exactly what we were we were just talking about and what was that thing that we were talking about before where it was like the uh, the hand holding the plant? What was that thing called? Were you like, plant the seeds?
You know what I'm talking about, Oh, Anastasia or what is it called? Yeah, the Anastasia method.
Yeah, So anyways, it was it was this whole thing about planting a seed. And anyway, the card that we got for that was this hand holding. It was the deck itself was slightly different, but it was basically the right of Way, you know, but it was a hand
with stars in it holding a plant. And it was just like how there was no other card that could have worked out so perfectly, you know, And so I don't know, that's just one of those things that tends to happen, man, like wherever your mind goes, wherever the energy goes, like it just all sinks up and.
Shows you it's the first synchronistic exactly.
Like I do totally like it's so much of it is just about that alignment and not being scared to align with what you truly want. Because again, like we're taught like to have very unnatural relationships with the parts of us that are ambitious, and I don't know, like that's I think that that's wrong. I think we should. We're here to create, you know, and there's nothing more exciting than like being able to live off of your creations. I mean, at that point, you are just in alignment
with the universe. So I don't know, I think people need to I hope people take that to heart, and you know, go out and live your dreams and fuck yeah.
You know what, just one last thing you whenever I asked you what the meaning of life is, and you said be happy and basically be of service and be useful, right, And I almost wonder that it seems like the call them guides or angels or whatever is on the other side of the veil. It seems like they're here to do exactly that for us as well.
I would say, so at least the ones that I meet are, you know, I don't deny that in hyperspace there are definitely some tricks or demons or entities I'm still trying to figure out because I don't meet them often because I always do like protective spells and stuff.
But I'm going to be doing like a specifically demonic like mushroom ritual, like to invoke the devil, because I'd never, like, I feel like, in order to understand the worst parts of the self that would come up in like the satan of your own soul.
You know, the energy of whatever that is.
You know, whatever that may be. So yeah, anyway, I forgot where I was going with that.
But yeah, calling on the adversary's just calling on the adversary over there.
Sometimes, you know what, there's a lot of wisdom in job.
No, I mean, I'll tell you what you know. We've we've we try to get real philosophical and wondrous about this kind of stuff. And I just from my experience with other people's stories. You're talking about demons and the devil, and you know, you're reading the Bible and you hear those stories and everything, it seems like, yeah, the devil and demons might be scary and they're out there just fuck you up or whatever, but it seems like that has to exist in order to push you in the
correct direction, you know what I'm saying. Like, without without all of that, you wouldn't know necessarily what the bad side and the downside and the and and all of the horrible things about you represent.
Yeah you, I couldn't agree more. Man. You have to be in touch with those parts of you that are capable of actually like causing destruction in the world, because it's as as humans we have to learn how to deal with that and control that. And as the saying goes, mightier as the person that can control their anger than one that can destroy a city with it. And I think that these days a little too much, people I don't know are letting their anger get a little bit
the best of them. And I'm not perfect. I've certainly fallen into that category, but I'm at least recognizing it and trying, you know. And sometimes you bring it up with people and they just think you're nuts, And it's like, what, because I'm trying to be a better person, Why does that make me nuts? You know?
It's demonic, dude, It's demonic, you know. At the end of the day, it's all part of the same soup, you know.
Yeah, dude, Well, but it's about being in touch with the ego. I guess that's what I was trying to get to. It is just that like that demonic side again, it's like, just like the goddesses and all that, it's coming down you coming up the demons and the devils. It's the same thing. So there's a part of you that's playing a role in it. And until you actually do this and you meet them, you know, well, at
least I'm going to find out. I was about to say, you know, it'll be difficult to understand it, but you know what, it might be a total bust. You know, I might do the spell wrong. I've done spells and they've gone wrong. That's how you know, to your point, that's how I know when they go right, because they go wrong.
Absolutely. Yeah, let us know. Maybe we'll have you back on at some point. We would love to have you back on. Of course, this was an amazing conversation, and let us know what happens with that, because I'm kind of I'm kind of curious.
Yeah, sure, I.
I'll probably be posting it on Instagram when I do it, I'll be waiting for It'll be a few months. I'm still integrating from a different Iahwasca experience from not too long ago, so I like to have the integration period and then you'll you'll definitely hear about it for sure.
Awesome man, Well, thank you so much for coming to hang out with us. This was an absolute pleasure. You have a wealth of knowledge and experience that only we're here to just be the sponge. That's that's it. So we appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your experiences with us. And like Sehn said, yeah, we would love to have you on again and want to someday. Sure if you, if you could, could you lead to our we call
our listeners, the initiates. Could you let the initiates know where they can find you and all your good works there?
Sure, hello, Initiates. You can find me on Instagram at Tom dot hatsis. I have a substack as well, which if you just search Tom Hatsus or Thomas Hatsus on substack, and I have a YouTube page. I'm your channel, I guess you say. And I just started doing that, so it's there's not too much there. But I have a few like podcast things up where it's just me rambling about shit, and it's gonna be it's way more culture focused, but it's gonna be getting more psychedelic and culture and
magic and culture focused. And that again, if you just go to YouTube and put Tom hatsus. I don't have a name for the thing yet for my show yet, So if you think of some thing, let me know.
Absolutely, dude. I could listen to you talk all day, dude. So if you start a podcast or whatever, I would listen to it. Hell, yeah, for sure.
So I got a few.
Yeah, all right, man, all right, Well look, if if Thomas hat Says came here and he taught you anything, it's that.
You don't know what you don't know.
So I don't just get weird stay weird. Oh man, that was a that's a nice one. You know, you don't You never really to look at each body part as if it is almost like its own little energy or its own little entity, and to think it and show it gratitude. And it might sound kind of silly to people who have never done that before. I've never done that before, but you can feel why it's important to show gratitude toward it though, like it's you like actually physically feel it.
Yeah. The only time I think you think about it is like if you're injured, right, like all of a sudden, your back's fucked up and you can't lift things the way you normally. You can't stand up the way you normally could, or just certain things like that is when you're like, ah, I just want this to get better, Like it's really important for this body part to get better because it's really causing a tough strain on my
life right now. And then when you get better, then you you know, time goes by and you kind of forget and you take it for granted. Again. It goes with everything, man, we take everything. We get to a point where we take things for granted. So and I know that you know, saying be grateful, you know, the gratefulness and all of this. It sounds cheesy or whatever, but I you know, I think it's super important. Dude.
You know, we've talked about this before. It's like when you're when you're grateful and you kind of just live that way, everything is just extra, you know. And No, that was a pretty interesting one, man. I was imagining, like any any times in your life, like growing up or or whatever, you if you have a bad experience or or you know, maybe you felt like you did somebody wrong or whatever, it is that you know the
things that you would need to forgive yourself for. It's almost like wherever you were in that point in time, it kind of just got trapped there, you know, almost like an echo of space time, and it's just stuck there.
But it's a version of you, but but not all of you, you know, So I feel like and just just to play around with it, you know, I was just visualizing that and kind of like allowing those parts of myself to be to be free, you know, and not be trapped in that in that moment or in you know, in that time of anger or feeling upset or feeling let down or you know, any any moment like that, just kind of released that because maybe you know, maybe consciously you don't think it's there, but you go
into that meditation and you kind of just start to let those thoughts come in and try to really because I mean, the best thing you can do is put your awareness on the things that maybe you purposely put away or maybe you you know, and so in your reality now it doesn't even exist, but it's still there, and I'm sure it's still like a wall. That's that's kind of trapping that fullness of you to be, you know, all the way.
You Yeah, yeah, It's what's interesting is is that people who believe that only the physical world exists, whether they're atheist or religious or whatever you are. I mean, there are there are people who consider themselves spiritual that think that, well, we only experience the physical and all that other stuff is happening, that's the spiritual stuff. But this is the
physical realm, so only physical things happen here. And it's easy to think that, Like that's the easiest thing to believe because it's the most obvious, right, Like I can touch this desk, I know it's here, Therefore it is real. But like man, whenever you're going through all the individual body parts and you know, bring focus there. I don't even know how to explain it, but I feel energy going there, you know what I like?
I get. No, it's something that's probably always happening. That feeling, that tingling, that whatever it is that you feel when you put your awareness there is always happening. And that's very comparable to a lot of the mystical things and spiritual things that we would notice on psychedelics or whatever, because it's always happening, but we just so happen to be putting our attention on it in that moment in time.
And if you can bring that awareness there and feel the energy that is going there, and then add on top of that the feeling of gratitude that is being funneled into that energy that you that you're focusing to that point, you could see how one might heal themselves.
That's exactly what I was hoping. That's where you were going to go. Yeah, absolutely, yeah for sure, like all the cells in that part of your body are just like happy, you know, like, oh, you know what I mean, there's a tension on us, like everything. What is that experiment where the double slid experiment, you know, where awareness or the observer has some sort of impact and so you the observer is observing that part and maybe this is like out there, you know, and maybe it's not
real at all. I don't know, but it sounds cool to me. Like if you put your awareness on a part of your body that needs healing and just like full intention, just put all of that healing energy into that part of your body. I feel like there was one time where that happened here on this podcast. I was having a really tough time with my one of
my toe, it was my big toe. It was just hurting really bad, and I remember we were doing something like that, and there was this weird hum and I felt like, all of a sudden there was like a almost like a bubbling type of sensation in my toe. And the next day it was feeling better, like dramatically better, not just a little bit. And so I don't know, maybe that was a coincidence, but I don't think there.
Is such a thing, dude. I think you are literally guiding energy, and depending upon what energy you are putting into that soup of energy, that's maybe how it interacts with it. So if you are saying, oh, my fucking knees, they're just given now they curse fucking hate them, what I just wish. I just want to rip these things off,
you know what I mean? Like, and you're just constantly not only saying it, but you're you're feeling it, and you're allowing that energy to encompass you and maybe you're even imagining it, And yeah, I would imagine they probably don't get any better than that. But conversely, you say about how much gratitude you had toward towards it, and it sends a little energy in the same way. And it's not even just about your body, dude, Like I
think that when people pray. I'm not going to go into the specifics of it, but like I think that whenever people pray. Let's say, my daughter is going to take a test I don't know tomorrow, right, and I'm like, God, please give her the patience and the trust in herself and let her know that she is capable of getting an A on this. Do I literally believe that God is going to do that. I don't know, maybe, but I think that the energy that I just put out is being received somewhere.
Yeah, even if it's just the the energy that you're putting into a potential reality, let's just say that, dude, I feel like that alone is a lot bigger than you would believe. Dude. You know, like if you really believe in something that you want to accomplish, like you believe like there's no matter, no matter what happens, I'm going to accomplish this because this is like my ultimate goal,
this is what I have to do this. I know deep down in my heart that this is what I want to accomplish, and I'm going to do everything possible. And then you're also like visualizing it and because of course you would be how could you How could you not visualize what that would look like. It's all just this, it's all one, one thing, you know, And so you're putting your awareness on a potential reality that you would
want to see. Then I just feel like it has to happen, you know, I mean within reason, you know, obviously maybe maybe within reason, maybe not. I mean it was definitely not within reason. Whenever that fucking wizard went out in the desert and pulled the moon closer. You know, that's without That's that's illogical, that goes against all logic.
Yeah, so I think that the only thing that is unreasonable is the boundaries in your own mind. Really, yeah, because there's a way I fucking what was his name, Joe Despendza healed his back through meditation, bro, like put the piece is back to where they needed to go. Oh for sure, focus and energy and contemplation.
My uh wow, whatever. My nose and everything was all because I was sick for like month. I feel like it was sick for like a month and a half. I couldn't breathe out of my nose. We did that mind control shit, and I was like really trying to work on that, and like I've even thought about it after the fact and trying to heal that and like touching my fingers together and really just trying to I want this to be better, because it was starting to
kind of concern me, you know something like that. Dude, I can it's like a lot better right now, like tonight. I mean, for the last two days, it's been a little bit better, and I feel like I can talk a little bit more normally, you know, And so like a coincidence, I don't know.
I think it probably presents itself as a coincidence.
Right yeah, for some reason that it's like hard to believe some of these things, so you just just to play it safe, as if you had to play it safe by just saying, oh, it's a coincidence instead of just being like, oh, I think I might have helped that along just a little bit.
You know.
Yeah, definitely push it and that right way. You know, what I think helps probably more than anything else, at least from what I was kind of experimenting around, and that meditation was, is that, yeah, whenever I'm gonna say a little story and then it'll connect. Whenever I was younger, I mean, I have a brother and a sister. We're all relatively close to the same age. My sister is a year and a half younger than me, My brother
is four years younger than me. I'm the oldest. And whenever we were growing up, man, we would all get into arguments, we would get into fights. Me and my brother literally wrestled and fought every day like it was. But we never took it too far, you know what I'm saying, Like I never broke a bone or you know, punched him in the face or anything like that. Like
it was brotherly love. Like even when we were pissed at each each other and like ready to rip each other's heads off, there was we were never going to go as far as you know, maybe other people would have gone. And I think that that's that was just kind of in our mind that you don't do that to family, you know, like and and what is family other than familiar, you know what I'm saying, Like, I think that's actually probably where it comes from, is it's
your familiar. And so whenever I was going in and putting my focus on my feet and my ankles and my knees and my hips and everything in my chest and everything, yeah, I went about it as if I was familiar with that with doing that, you know, and I think that people put a little bit of separation
in between them and things that are seemingly unknown. But if it's all one giant thing and there is no separation, then at an at some level, probably at all levels, but at some level to our ability to comprehend, it's relatable. It's you know, it's familiar. And I think that if you go in with that faith that it is familiar and instead of putting a little distance in between, look
at it like it's familiar. I think that's where the fucking healing is at, Dude, Like, it is that level of familiar that like, who knows what we were before we incarnated. Maybe we were existing as other people or aliens or planets or stars or whatever, but surely there was an in between period where we were just energy, and I think as energy we were able to go around and probably experience a lot of different things, and some of those things are I mean, I don't know.
I like to boil it all down to a singularity point, and if everything is one singularity point, then there is nothing that is unfamiliar.
Right, Yeah, Well, it's no coincidence that when somebody tries psychedelics and they blast off into outer space, you know, Like, why is that? That seems to be one of those common things that people would experience, and it's I don't know,
I feel like there's there's no coincidence there. It's like the you are the universe, yes, you know, and it's almost like when you get outside of what you think is you right, you're you just you're so just comfortable with being this body, and then you get you get out of your own way and you take down those walls and the ego and everything else, and you're just the universe. And so I think that's where we come from.
We just come from the we we are. We were just the universe, and now we're we're this right now for this short amount of time, yeah, until we're not yeah, and then we're back to that again. But you may as well be familiar with it, because I think just going back to that, like I think that anytime.
I think there's a lot of division in the world. Obviously, like it's not hard to find the division in the world, whatever it is, political, religious, difference of opinion on anything, right, But I think that if we were able to find anything that we could be familiar with even to a stranger. Oh, you got up in the morning and I don't know, took a piss. Hey I did that this morning, you know, like something.
So also like flying in your dreams, I know it? Who doesn't know it? Who doesn't?
You know?
It's that level of familiarity that ultimately brings you closer. And isn't that the point of all of it, Like the point of everything is just to get closer and more intertwined and not divided. And I think that that's happening probably on a microcosmic skill as well as a macrocosmic skill.
Absolutely. I think we just we just give in, We give into certain things, We choose sides. We you know, we create our own divisions. I feel like we allow the divisions. And it's like most people are just wanting a you know, a decent life. They want to love their family, They want their kids to go to school and come home safe. They you know, they want to make sure that everyone's got something to eat in the house.
And you know what I'm saying, most people would would see someone on the side of the road and go, oh, fuck, that sucks. I've been there before. I wish I can
get over, but there's traffic and I can't go and help. Like, I feel like most people are kind of on the same wavelength, on that same level, but then there's just all these different things that they their attachments and and things that they've kind of acquired depending on where they spawn and you know, into this world, and you know, they they're they're they're so they're bought into it so hard, dude, that it's like, if I'm not that, then what am I?
You know, if I'm not the team that I like, or if I'm not the cell phone that I prefer over Apple or Android, or you know, oh I don't like that band because they're probably demonic, or there's just so many different things that people like to just nitpick, and if you don't like what I like, then you know, we can't hang out. And it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm getting too far into the weeds here, but it's just I know what you're saying, dude. That's the thing.
That's the one thing I feel like needs to be figured out. But it's just it seems impossible, like I can't figure out a single thing that I can say or do to get people to just be like, oh, yeah, we're all just here on this planet at the same time, like you know, like.
By God's grace.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. I don't know, dude, I don't know. Maybe some day people will will figure it out.
It's it's kind of like uh Nadel Perrman said the most evil thing that you can tell yourself. The one word you remember when he said.
This, yes, is they mm hmm yeah, the enemy with no face you know, yep, that is perpetuated by your own thoughts.
There is no vainess in oneness, right right, It can't happen like that anyhow. All right, Yeah, I do have one more thing I wanted to say. I don't know how many people listen beyond here, so I probably should have said it at first, but I'll just run it by you in case nobody's listening whatever. All right, Yeah, I think what I'm gonna do is, I don't know.
I'm not sure which day I want to do it, but I want to pick one day a week where it'll just be me behind the mic and I'm reading a book and it'll be a meta book club, and I'm sure you're going to listen to it. Because we love the same books and everything like that. But I want it to be a book club, like, all right, we're going to read five chapters today, or maybe we'll read half the book, or if it's small enough, maybe
we'll read the full book in one sitting. But I have so many damn books that I know we're never going to be able to get to, and I want to be able to share with everybody else because most of the books that I have are suggestions from listeners or from guests that we've had, or just from even research that I've done that I thought was particularly interesting.
And there's so many amazing books that I have that I just I don't have the time to get to, and so this will give me a reason to get to them, you know what I'm saying.
Dude, No, that's a great idea. You should definitely do that, for sure.
I think that would be a lot of fun.
It's funny though, that you were thinking that as far as like, I don't know how many people listen this far because I had that thought, like I wonder how many people are actually doing the meditation or if like whenever we're like, oh, time for the meditation, they're like all right, well, I guess that's it, you know, and they just kind of tune out. But even if one person is out, they're meditating. I mean, either way, we're still gonna do it. You know. I love the meditations, dude.
I get so much more out of them that I even anticipate, you know, like really.
Yeah, Well, you know, here's what we'll do for anybody that is listening, because this episode's going everywhere, but for anybody that is listening on the Cult of Conspiracy podcast, on the Metamistics podcast, on Spotify, on Apple, on YouTube, on Patreon, wherever you're listening to this, if you just drop a comment, that will, like it'll be an inside thing. And if you've listened this far, just put a I don't know, put a uh, put a question mark. It'll
be an inside joke, yep. And we'll see how many question marks and then we'll know, like you don't even have to say I was here till the end, just just a question mark, and and we'll know that's it.
Yep. There's gonna be that one person that just is just organically putting a question mark because they don't know what the hell we're talking about. And then everyone else puts question marks and it's gonna really throw them off. So that would be great.
Yeah, whatever, yeah, whatever happens in and if and if people are questioning your question mark, just be like, you don't get it, you don't know, you wouldn't know, right, So even if you're the first one that puts a question mark, we want to see it. I'd like there needs to be no context other than the question mark.
That's it'd be great. Perfect.
But yeah, I'm gonna I think I'm gonna start that that uh that book club. Now what's today? Says Friday? It'll probably it'll start next week.
Oh it's Friday. Oh it's Thursday for me, technically Friday. Now different days, all right for me? Anyway.
Yeah, so yeah, I think i'll start it next week. I haven't picked a day yet, but I don't know. We'll be weird. Sounds good anyhow, all right, the one Hopefully you enjoyed this conversation, Hopefully you listened this far, and if you did, question mark.
Question mark, I'm Ron Burgundy.
Right yeah, and so yeah, we'll just leave it there. We love you and we'll see you on the flip side.
I guess imagine what would it happened if we had in the tract and the magic we had back when we couldn't fathom life is the fantasy, not.
With the fan, indeed not the way it was back then.
So I grabbed my pan and write it down like a scripture, missed and mist making hits for the misfits, the show with you don't Know what you don't know when it's on again with Shawn and Jonathan