CultXCosmic: A Ghost Story

Oh trigger warn this podcast may include explicit content.

That will take you out of your comfort zone and make you question reality. Listeners, question is advised. How do you, folks, Your host double J back here, coming at you live slash live in a deep rain delay from my studio slash RV dining room located directly inside America. Now, folks of interwebs, once again JJ Vance here, host of Operation GCD right there and perhaps more notably not the Vice President.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's good to be back.

Absolutely yeah, thanks thanks for having me. Jj. I'm excited about this one for.

Sure, me too. I really, you know, horror films are not my you know, not my favorite genre, but this one, given the esoteric understandings of a lot of the things, uh and uh, just a lot of the elements of the story, I found very interesting. So and it wasn't I had never heard of this film. So and we actually had two other parties joining us tonight. We had

Yeah, Yeah, there's an awful lot of stuff, especially in the in the novel, but some of it survives in the movie too, really really conscious references to the Yonker's cult, and it's sort of like it's a version of the story that never mentioned Son of Sam directly, but it references all the other players and locations except for Son of Sam itself. So it's it's it's odd the way he did it, but it was ingenious for the book. It's it's really interesting story structure.

Yeah, I agree for sure. I got some ideas on those similar things that I saw. Perhaps that more annoyed thoughts I suppose of anything else. But before we get into that to those discussions, before we discuss our blog posts again, Thank y'all both for joining me here, and if I can offer you both, you know, your time to plug anything you're working on, or an introduction anything you're working on, please John start us off there.

Sure, yeah, I know you got.

You got some new blog stuff, but as far as and I'll have the links here in the show notes. But if, yeah, if you want to introduce some of your work, and and then Julie, of course we'll let you do that next and then we'll get in our discussion. Okay, Well I'm not cutting out.

Well, I wrote a long essay or a short booklet, I guess, or pamphlet depending on how you you know which classification you prefer called before Son of Sam, and in the sub stac blog, I'm just elaborating on some of the points that I originally made in the booklet. And occasionally, you know, you run across new information that relates to things that you've already discussed. So yeah, I had been thinking about the death Mask murder in the last few days, so I just wrote up a little

So yeah, that's awesome, And I'll make sure these links from the show notes for folks that jack out. We'll be diving into some of those blog posts here in a second, because that death Mask one that's a I find out a very interesting and important case for folks to understand what's going on with all that. But before we get into that, Julia, thanks again man for joining me here tonight. What have you been working out of the Cosmic Peach podcast?

So, I'm actually working on something that I was talking to John about before we started recording or before we went live, which is program serial Killers. It's one of my favorite subjects to talk about. I actually have discovered two new program serial Killers that were not mentioned in Program to Kill, But I've put together presentations on both of them and those episodes will be coming out in

Huh oh sorry, go ahead.

Oh yeah, podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. But yeah, I got a lot of cool stuff I'm working on, and this episode seems to be falling right in line with a bunch of stuff I'm working on too. Actually, you know, program killers is the best subject in my opinion.

It's funny you mentioned that with this film hitting on so many subjects of things we're already working on, because I you know, it's not necessarily relative to the conversation. So I'll bring it up here in a moment of

Hmm.

Now, these ones you were going over, they weren't by name Buffalo Jared Revisa, were they?

No? No, you probably won't even recognize him. If I told you the name, I bet you probably haven't even heard of him.

John, Are you familiar with my former stalker and the guy who demanded to be my pr rep Buffalo Jared Reviza, the parent mind controlled assassin. He went on a multi state stabbing spree.

I think we talked about the first.

I talked about him.

A few months back. Yeah.

Yeah, So I did a show there night about a cannibalistic homicidal kid ddling serial killer. It's like a bout the serial killer named Nathaniel Barr Jonah, Right, would you believe the same Bridgewater statement On hospital that let that that looney tune, you know, on the loose to go

JJ.

The only thing that's even adjacent to being in a military program is being in a minial hospital. Yeah, I mean, they'll get you either way.

Well, I'm glad you said that. So to this point of how these these homicidal mind controlled you know, you know, hypnosis controlled or whatever you want to call it. Serial killers, serial killers, right, you know, the system time and time seems to just you know, inadvertently or accidentally let these

Fucker.

And you know what, you know the district attorney date on on that charge that he did when he kidnapped kid less than month later, and he would he was a three hundred pound dude, so he would disable the children by sitting on them, right, This is this is his m He did the same thing kidnapping the kid, did the same thing, and the and the county prosecutor there said, you know what, I don't this guy's not a day. We're gonna give him probation. We're gonna give him probation.

So well, that's the same with Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. They kept exactly exactly And actually one of the serial killers that I'm covering in an upcoming episode kept getting let back out too. It was like orders from the district attorney's office letting this guy out. I mean, I can't give too much away, obviously because you'll have to listen to the episode, but it is crazy. And I did see in the in the comment section they said,

And uh on these kind of same notes of the mind controlled serial killer, sasas and stuff when we're talking all these satanic cults and matters relative to the Son of same or the Process, right it is. And one note before I plugged my my the Anatomy of a Satanic panic series starting tomorrow and Operation GCD Patreon Nathaniel Barjona. The judge that let him out was the special prosecutor in the chap Aquidit case to let ted Kennedy walk,

There's no coincidences, So that I'll be going over certain aspects of unpacking this is the quote unquote satanic panic and how ridiculous a lot of these concepts are.

And how they revolve around a lot of around the psychological operations components, specifically in other matters around this guy. Colonel Michael Aquino. Now, Julie, are you fam there. This is a relative to Dave mcgow and John some of his work he did besides the Program to Kill, on some of these matters. Are you familiar with the the infamous exchange that Aquino had with Dave McGowan Syrica two thousand and one.

He had uh interaction with Dave Well.

Yeah, yeah, so another one of the books John, John, you may not be familiar with this one, Julia, you may be familiar with it.

Pedocracy, pedioocracy, Yeah, the pedaphocracy.

There we go pedophocracy the McGowan books. So Aquino read that, saw his name and other associated friends in there, and wrote him an email saying, you're a madman, You're making stuff up. You're you're creating satanic panic. Was a statement a Quino made the McGowan be email. Obviously McGowan wasn't buying it, no, and.

Also he probably read it and knew his goose was cooked because McGowan had all the facts there. He never published anything without having all the facts for sure.

And it's a it's a quite hilarious exchange. And I will be coming going over with some of that in my you know, outline and unpacking of this quote unquote satanic panic. That again, when a man like Michael Quino is accusing folks who were studying facts, and again McGowan, you know, provides in the fact states the facts. As you were pointing out, Julia in the email exchanges, they

Mm hmm r I P Dave McGowan. I love that guy.

And also hello.

Maria, I saw her mentioning me in the comments.

Yes, so that'll be a good one. Say on. On top of that, I have one more plug before we get we get started here, folks, and I do apologize for any long winded natures. I have a actually we have. We have a different a cult esoteric review coming up next week, don't we, Julia, Yes we do. So I married an axe murderer, right, Yeah, that's not it. I got it here somewhere stand by one.

Yeah, so I married an axe murderers. Next week, yep.

This time. Next Wednesday, we have a different cult esoteric view with a cosmic Peach returning back along with myself, Jien the Ninja, my Idaho four, I Haven't Costello Cohort and of course Hety Love from Unfiltered Rise podcast. So that'll be a good one. And then the following week,

That's a statement right there.

JJ.

Absolutely so on that note, let's talk more serial killers? Did I cut out in my back?

No, you're good. You want John to go first?

Well, I was gonna say, let's uh, let's me bring up the film first. Yeah, well we'll actually know what Let's let's jump into some of John's work if you don't mind on the Sun to Sam stuff. So I'm sure, Julia, you'll be knowledgeable in some of these topics he's discussing here in his blog posts. Yeah, so, John, what what what? What's been your It seems like you on your blog post from from what what I've read off your recent ones.

Yeah, very recent uh story from Westchester County about uh new or recent animal mutilations.

Interesting.

The one of the New York City council women even acknowledges that, you know, it's it's cults that are doing this, so that I don't think this kind of activity ever stopped. I think, I mean, it was obviously was going on well before the Son of sam Era, but it continued, you know, long after Berkowitz was arrested, and you know the case was allegedly over.

So John, color me me shock that Westchester County remains adent of inequity today as god back in nineteen seventy seven. But no, it says right here though, right like you said that these are fringe groups mutilating and killing animals, says New York City councilwoman Joe Anne. And that's a real name, Ariola, Ariola.

So John, is it your opinion that this is accurate or are they giving us more smoking mirrors? Like are they trying to distract us? Like oh, it's you look at this, look at this, like what do you what are your thoughts on that.

I think this one is because when I started to get into full time research, I had read another story I think was actually in USA today, where similar things were happening to this, like four or five years ago. So it appears to be ongoing up there now, you know what it's attached to. Who's in charge of the activity these days? I couldn't say, but and I've spoken to people from the area, and everybody seems to sort of be aware on some level that this kind of

Okay, I gotcha, And it's kind of never stopped if you look at I mean, just from my just from my take on all these matters is looking at some of the newspaper accounts, there's records of mutilated animals throughout Westchester, Puttnam,

Yeah, different public parks and things like that. But it's it's it's always in areas where they seem to leave some traces of evidence deliberately so that people will see it and talk about it. And I think that's an ongoing preoccupation of these groups.

Got that so on that note, What do you think they're doing that for? Is that a psychological terror campaign to scare America? When they're leaving things behind, they could just as easily clean it up, as you just pointed out, And I do agree, right right.

I think it's like Peter Strub said in the novel ghost Story, they like to flaunt themselves. They like to leave breadcrumbs. It's it's a perverse thing that I think. It's like people who are flashers or something like it. People just they want people to see it, you know, whatever it is they're doing, they have to have an audience of some type for it.

So it's kind of that that same kind of ego driven kind of thing, right they're trying. Of course, other people look at him naked. My math teacher did that in high school. He forced people to do that. It was after high school, but sadly he's my favorite, one of my favorite teachers in high school. But he was driving around after a couple years later, just getting women to pull over on the local highway or whatever and then running out there with an overcoat on, saying, you know,

It is the kind of thing that it has to be like a deep seated compulsion for people to do it at all, because if if they sat and thought about it rationally, that they wouldn't be out there doing it.

But yeah, speaking of this is a nineteen eighty one movie, and I was actually surprised how much full frontal there's a lot in this. Yeah, it's uh, it really was it.

Yeah, I forgot this as an adult because I remember, you know a number, my son's eighteen now, but you know, almost almost eighteen. But when he was about seven or so, I was, you know, introducing him some films from my child and I totally forgot how much full front was in the film Howard the Duck, And then I realized, I'm like, it's PG right, But I realized they didn't invent PG thirteen for a couple more years because there's a lot of full frontal on it. There's duck on

Right best reality at its finest.

But yeah, they got a lot of They got away with a lot of stuff in the early eighties. I feel like in some of these films, this one had some, you know, more nudity than I thought was coming in it. But it is a horri.

Yeah, me too, right, Yeah, you always know somebody's gonna die if their penis or tits are out.

That's what I was offended by the cock shot early on in the film. I was offended by that there's no need to show the man's penis falling out of the building.

That it wasn't that it was like a green screen thing and you could see the outline as he fell, you know, the whole scene is just really odd looking.

Yeah, it's definitely kind of low budge, I would say, but it's got a lot of aspects of like a classic eighties horror movie.

And it's funny you say that it comes off with a budget, doesn't it.

It does come off of a budge, it really does. That surprises me because, like, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, but like the scenes where it shows the uh, the woman as a skeleton and you know, she's all it looks like something that you could get at Spirit Halloween.

You know.

It just kind of.

It looked worse than that that Minnesota my control assassin over the weekend, right than his mass.

Well, yeah, but I will I don't want to get again, I don't want to get too far ahead into the movie or anything. But I will say I did enjoy it because I feel like it's a story. I think it's the predecessor actually to many horror movies that have the same outline. I don't know if it will be integral to anything John's gonna point out, but the idea of the vengeful spirit coming back and attacking the living and like taking them out one by one. It's repeated

I don't think I've ever seen it.

Well, it's the same concept, I would say, like movies like Grudge, you know, where it's like the bad guys killed somebody and their ghost comes back and kills them off one by one kind of thing, which is what.

We have here in ghost Story.

Huh right, Yeah, I do feel like it's an idea that's been kind of like, maybe they ripped it off of this movie because it's not as well known as some of the more popular ones. But sure it's older than them, So I'm thinking maybe they ripped it off of this movie because.

You bring up some good points and I don't want to cut you off there. But before we go any further, this is gonna be the number one Halloween costume of twenty twenty five, I imagine. But this was the Vance Botler guy, right. He seemed like, speaking of horror stories should just watch this guy's story of the weekend. That's a horror story right there, the sigh of they try to pass off on folks.

I didn't get to dive too far into it, but I'm sure you've got a lot of thoughts on.

It's it's ridiculous, Yeah, I do, Well, you talk about some of their time. I just want to make the joke there because it's fancy both. I think that name is ridiculous, and I think that mask is ridiculous, just as ridiculous as the horror mask you're talking about from Ghost Story, you know what I mean. So, you know, as far as a low budget where the money went, I imagined it was all cocin hookers. But that's my opinion.

Well, you know, didn't Poltergeist come out in the eighties or am I wrong?

Yeah?

Think think of all the freaking special effects they put into Poltergeist. You know, it just didn't seem like it was upper echelon type.

Of make up what I'm saying. You know, you got to you gotta look at the Fred of Stare situation, and you know he's got a large, large amount money's probably dedicated to his you know, his budget line item of cocin hookers just for himself and I and I'm and on that note, before we go any further here on John's blogs, we will go over these characters, the actors in the film, because there's some interest in folks there.

Yeah, I was. I was really interested in that story that I think we've talked a little bit about. Jesse Turner and other or Mickey Rose, the name that Morey used to refer to. I don't know where the name came from. I don't know if that's the name that Turner used for himself, but he, you know, he lived with the Process in New Orleans, and he recalled an incident where a fellow Process member was hung up it sounds like on a wall or something, but but tied

That yeah, I'm not hip. I'm not hip to this at all.

But I'm not hip to this either.

I'm very what years we talking here, this crucifixion situation.

This was in the early seventies when when Turner lived with the Process in the French Quarter, they had a house there, and he said that he witnessed this murder and then the Adam and Karen the mcnutts took the body away in a car. He never saw Karen again, but then he Jesse Turner evidently travels west with Adam after this is all over with, and they go to try to set up headquarters for the Process in other areas.

In the United States.

Yeah, yeah, so it's it's in the files that we have. He doesn't really elaborate on the incident very much, but it is this is publicly available information now, and it's I've searched and searched in vain for any trace of Adam and Karen McNutt. So I'm guessing that those probably weren't their real names. But just the fact that the incident, you know, the way the incident is described is it seems pretty significant to me because I would guess that

You know, I'll kind of put a pin in that. But I am interested in your analysis because I didn't read the book, but I'm interested in your analysis and what was included in what was not included there. But it's interesting about the mcnuts. I often look into that myself. After reading your article. It's the first I heard of it.

Yeah, it's really It's one of those things that when when we got the files that it jumped out at me. But a lot all of the Mickey Rose slash Jesse Turner files are really interesting because he knew firsthand about this process stuff, and then later in New York he became friends with Michael Carr. But yeah, I would recommend everybody go and read the files at the people versus David Burklewitz dot com.

And I'll get a link in their description for that too. So it's interesting you said that he knew about details of the cult. And again, that's what's most telling to me about tonight's movie review, is Peter Strob when he wrote that book clearly new details of this cold activity. I mean wrote that nineteen seventy eight, right, because Burke which is arrested in August tenth or seventy seven, and Stroub publishes this in January first of seventy nine, so you know, less than eighteen months.

That's right, And I think that's what's so important about the novel, And welln't a lot of other Straub's work too, because there are references to this stuff sprinkled throughout virtually every book he ever wrote, you know, right up to the end. But he what's so important about it is it's an entirely separate confirmation that this cult activity actually happened.

Do you think he was involved in Nicole himself?

I want you know where. I think that there's at least one clue to where he might have found out about this. He dedicates the novel to a couple of different people. What are their names here? Valley shioh s h a Io and Gregori O cahoone. Those were they? They weren't married at the time, but they married later. They're both psychotherapists, but they're both Tavistock already laying alumni.

He dedicated this book to the Tavistock to.

Two Tavistock alumni, Yeah, Gregorio Cahana Valley Shio. And he named his daughter Emma. One of her middle names is Valley. So he apparently these folks were good enough friends with with him and his family that that he named his daughter after Valley Shio. So it gives you something to think about.

Yeah, you've located the epicenter of activity between Peter Strobe and the processed church cold activity via.

The town books are fullish ship what well.

I hated to find it out because I love his books. I mean, he there's no writer I love more than I mean, he was a brilliant storyteller, just an amazing writer. So I almost found it upsetting when I always knew there was something about ghost story, because all these links just kind of pop up at you. But but to the extent that it is, especially in that book, it really does. Once you sit down to think about it, it really is. It's disturbing.

Well, there's no music I love more than the Laurel Canyon scene.

It's the same way with that. It's just like so much of what you listen to and read you look at it and say, oh my god, all this stuff is connected to this, these horrible programs. But but yeah, the links unfortunately there.

Yeah, our spot on. I got a couple, I got a couple of things on.

Gradually, I said, who doesn't love the Beatles their Tavistock.

Then there you go. I wasn't gonna say the Beatles were closed because I was gonna say Rolling Stones. I got a couple details on Deckford tonight's tale that include these some of these bands like like the Stones, right, the Process and Stones, or the Processing and Beatles for that matter, or the British Invasion. What what really was that British invasion? Right right?

Well? Yeah, yeah, particularly with the Beatles because that was the one that that was their flagship group. Yeah.

So I agree because you got Jane Asher, who's Paul McCartney's girlfriend and her brother is confirmed member and owner of the in a good coffee shop there in the Mayfair district of London where the Beatles are convening, and

Yes.

So do you feel like they put aspects of like the important aspects from the book into the movie because there I did have a few questions about one or two things I picked up on from the movie. But do you feel like they left some of it out?

I think Madge's interrojectal quick, Julie cau we put a pen in that real quick. That's one we'll get. We'll do the story here one second. I's want to close out these one more blog.

Entry with John if you don't know, okay, sure, sure, So.

Relative to this entry, John and I think that I think I found most intriguing, is my opinion. The first investigator into the process was Jim Garrison, the New Orleans District attorney. Based on his own you know, work and whatnot. When you're saying this, that stuff with the mcnut situation was popping off from the early seventies. He was running

Absolutely, there was a lot happening down there, and things were happening in Yonkers at the same time, a lot of children were disappearing.

So yeah, very interesting. So the quick quick highlight of we can on these before we do the film review, John, the true scope of this understand what what do you mean by the true scope?

Yeah, well that's that's Walter Brown's mugshot or Ace Brown, the notorious Yonkers and he a lot of what we know about these other aspects of the case comes from Walter. And he he knew all these other people. He knew Sue Conway and all these important uh uh, you know, major figures in the Yonkers cult.

And if I may, he also knew a lot of other folks, like he connects to the Dean Coral situation. But I'm not mistaken, right right, Julia, do you familiar with that? Uh, what's Coral. Yeah, what's the guy in the between those two Philip Pasky, Yeah, Norton maybe what's his name?

Oh, you're talking about the guy with the pedo island Norman Norman.

Well yeah, so well Norman's associates with I think Jasey and Coral, if I'm.

Not mistaken, and also John Norman.

Yeah, look at in a minute, and I don't want to get too diverted, but this dude is connected to a lot of stuff, is he not. He was connected to a different pedo network.

Right, Yeah, yep, it was uh a network coming out of Dallas that they were all connected to.

That moved to Chicago, right, because Norman moved to Dallas. Then goes He's like the next day he's got a whole new ten thousand note cards full of customers and clients in this Chicago.

That is correct, Yep, that is correct.

So I apologize there the distracted there, John, if you if you may continue on about your uh your blog post. You're about East Brown, because he is a very important character, is he not?

Yeah? He was. He was when Maury typed up what he called his flipper list, when Yonkers had sort of uneasily reopened the case in the mid nineties. The people that Mary felt they needed to flip to get the case to a grand jury were well, Ace Brown was number one, Sue Conway was number two. She's my sort of pet suspect. I'm fascinated by her. I've done a

And well, so this was you're saying, this was a you know, like a pre existing operation that the Process kind of co opted the right.

Right, Yeah, the Yonker's Cult had been there for many years, and they apparently, well, the Process started to call the shots in the late sixties or early seventies. And so by the early seventies when all these kids are starting to disappear, primarily from the Graham School and Orphanage in Hastings, which is a neighboring towns, it's the Process who's controlling the action by that time.

Yeah, so they were, if I if I'm hearing you currently, they were after orphans.

Yeah, yeah, they've from what John Carr told Paul Raine Eery, they took a lot of children from the gram School because they were orphans and they John's rationale for the cult doing that was that the kids wouldn't be missed. Nobody really tried to keep track of them, even the school didn't try to find out what had happened to the kids.

Much like the Franklin scandal. Yeah, with the boys town.

It's like that. Yeah, just convenient disappearances of kids that nobody really cares about. It is trying to take care of it. It's it's really it's sad.

Save pat or behavior. Right, Yeah, what's that? What's that?

Julia I said they love orphanages.

Yeah, it's true.

Oh well yeah, it's lack of accountability, right, No one's paying attention. So I like that you've quot you highlighted this, so like this, Brown said in December of nineteen ninety six, it's a direct quotation for Mauric's files. Ace Brown said, I was told kids were buried there, referring to Untramer Park and Yonkers. And he's not the only person to say that, is he.

That's right. Multiple witnesses or sources told police the same thing. Sue Conway said that too. She said she heard that kids were buried there. I would imagine she presided over at least some of those sacrifices and burials firsthand, because that's the kind of person she was.

But yeah, Conway, yeah yeah, And.

Multiple sources told the police that same thing, that children had been sacrificed in rituals and then buried in the park. That's true.

Interesting, And Sue Conway met in early demise.

Right, well, no, she.

That's the one that that's when they died of cancer. I always play a guessing game with you, John, Who's who's a lie? She was?

Yeah? Yeah, she Sue. She was apparently was very ill in the years leading up to her death. But she had she had lived really hard. You know, a lot of a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol.

But she.

Two thousand or early two, I forget what. I think it was January of two thousand and Uh. Yes, she was something else. She really is. She's kind of a movie under herself.

So let me ask you all this. This is John David David Norman, the the Deadler Fellow operation from Dallas to Chicago, who's a saysions with Phil Pasky, who worked for John Wayne Gacy and Ace Brown apparently ties into Norman from my understanding as well, and there and that they have links. And isn't it interesting that John Mnieri would know uh, would would be familiar with uh Jeffrey Dahmer, and Dahmer and Gasey both had uh you know uh uh recruited their victims from the same gay club. What

I'm just telling John that before we got started today that all of these assholes are part of a network, and there's multiple assailants they but all the crimes get blamed on one guy. He's like the scapegoat guy. But there are there are so many people who are getting away with it and then their crimes just get attributed to Let's say one John Wayne gase you are one Dean Coral, one Jeffrey Dahmer. But there are several weirdo

You ain't kid, and Julia, you ain't kidding.

Yep, It's true, And there has to be a network. It just doesn't make sense any other way.

One hundred yeah.

Yeah.

And you know I like a network that may be like covered up under the auspices of national security.

Absolutely absolutely, because in the ben Rose case, the CIA pleated national security. They say, we don't have to testify before this committee. So that was the end of them, you know.

And how is that any different than the current Epstein situation with matters of national security?

Right right? Right?

Oh my gosh. I can't even tell you how much I love being on a panel with people who know what the fact they're talking about.

Well, you're you know, you're always welcome here in Operations C C. D. And John is as well. So I appreciate both your all time and and the folks of innerwebs.

It's interesting because there are some things in there that are her important items from the book that did make it into the movie.

There you go, let's start there, because I know Julia had those same questions for you.

Yeah. Yeah, What did survive were the strangeness of the villain or the villain s who is played by Alice Kreese. I think she's the single best part of the movie because all the strange stuff that happens in the book, the really creepy stuff Alice Kreese transmits through her performance. I don't know if she ever actually read the book, but she's she's the thing in the in the film that is most like the novel. So she's her performance is really interesting.

So that's interesting they would leave that out of the book. That's a great comment there. Appreciate that there because the fuzz one was another party who witnessed these activities, and that's right, another independent you know, recollection and accounts of these same uh, murderous and ritualistic activities of things being things, people being buried in around these parks.

Right right, that's right, And I the testimony is really overwhelmed. I mean, something happened in under my park. People were killed there, people died in that park, and the only thing that that stopped the investigation was the fact that the police and Yonkers evidently felt that an investigation would lead right back to their doorstep, and they were worried about their own skins, so they shut down the investigation.

So it does remind me also of the Finders, because they were spotted numerous times in parks, taking kids, kids in vans, kids being transported god knows where.

But also, well, Julia, those are matters of national security.

Right, yeah, the Finders, well.

Too.

John's point about Alice Kreeg is that how you say her last name.

I've heard it pronounce creege, but then I've heard it preese various ways, so I'm never sure which one is. I just settled on one, but it may not be the correct one.

She's awesome in this movie. I would agree with you. She's the creepiest aspect of the entire movie. She's She's actually in several horror movies. I think that's just her genre. She's most recently in a couple of Star Trek movies, I think. But so, she was super hot in this movie, proverbial hot eighties chick in this movie. But there was like this weird I don't know if it was like this in the book, but she almost seemed like a witch or something throughout the.

Yeah, And that's what's so great about her performance because it you get the now in the book, the character that she plays in the film, she's much more than just a person who has been reincarnated or whatever. She has a history, and she has it with these old men in the chatter society. And they never come right out and say that there's an additional history in the film, but just the subtlety of her performance gives you the

Yeah, gives you the creeps, and he's like, you know, just touch her, even her skin feels cold. You know, there's just like this weird witch, witchy thing. Yes about her.

Absolutely, and so.

Was that not in the go ahead? Was that was that great? Go ahead?

Oh? I was just gonna say that is she fortunately or unfortunately that character had a real life counterpart, And that was.

What I was going to ask you.

That's what's so spooky. And you find that there's a photo comparison of Sue from its two photos a decade apart. But you see in the latter photo of Sue with the long brown hair, I think you see a lot of Eva Galley Alma mobile Anna Mosstin in that photo of her. And in fact, even in the book, physically that character the description of her is obviously modeled on

I was just gonna say, do you think the real person to Conway? You think she's a witch? You think she's sent to some dark ship?

She was, Yeah, she was. She was. There was a source who when Maury did an Unsolved Mystery segment about the Son of Sam back in the late eighties, a source called the Unsolved Mysteries UH hotline thereafter and referred to her as he said, I knew people who knew her. She literally was the high priestess of the cult, that's what they called her. So she yeah, she was. She was actually into all that stuff, and she was serious about I.

Knew it, dude, I knew it. Just the way that they traded in the movie. There was like some weird witchy thing about her. Yeah.

Because there's like a mind control aspect too, right with the two right before I don't want to go too far, and before we get to all the characters, there's a mind she's got some sort of spell over some some some hood rats, right, that's right, that's right, some hoodlums, you.

Will, And there she is that that second photo. I believe you a lot of what's strange about that character in the book. In the film, you see in Sue's photo there she she she really was something else. She was. She made an impression on a lot of people.

I agree, the resemblance is uncanny.

From the film, Yeah, well she I think I think one of the things they did look for in the film when they were auditioning people for the role of Eva of Almah was somebody with that long, straight hair.

Somehow that is integral to the whole character. If you had had somebody with short hair or something, it wouldn't have worked for whatever reason. It's that kind of hair just goes with all the other aspects of the character for for whatever reason.

I also in the film, she has the eyes, like look at the eyes, right, Yeah, well, I was gonna say it's and it's the same color eyes.

I mean, they're the same kind of they have the same shape if you will.

Yeah, right, Yeah, there's something about the eyes too. It's like they picked her because she could. She can almost put you in a trance just looking at her, you know what I mean.

I think she did, man, I think she did. Yeah, that's intriguing. So let's do a quick since we're going over kind of the characters. Let's go back and revisit the storyline we're dealing with here. Would you like to to explain the synopsis? And and uh, you know, however you see it, They're they're gentle. Would like me to read it from the Wikipedia, the source of all information on the interwebs.

Sure, I can. I can synopsize it just briefly.

Nice.

Sure. In the novel, it's a fictional, allegedly fictional town called Milburn. It's supposed to be in upstate New York. In the film, if if I remember correctly, they don't actually name the city, but it was filmed in Vermont somewhere.

What I believe is from from my understanding, what's like one of the locations one of them.

And there was a real town square that they used. But a lot of the backgrounds you see are just like really elaborate matte paintings, which is another thing that I really like about the movie, really really beautiful backgrounds. I forget who the painter was, and I'm sorry about that because he deserves a lot of credit. But uh, the the town is it's supposed to be like a little sleepy small town, you know, and there there's a group of older men, affluent men. A couple of attorneys.

Yeah, and it's like it's got an interesting dynamico. That's a good explanation, I sir, I appreciate it. That's sure. That One of the things I found interesting was this this towing between reality. What is reality and what is not reality? Like what's hallucination? Right, and what's causing these dusts and what's not called like is it an external force or is an internal force in their nightmares of their heart attacks? Right?

Right? Right?

Tows that line pretty well, it does, it.

Does because that that's uh, I believe in. In the book and the film, somebody sees the first casualty jumping off the bridge, so uh, and then another one later dies of a heart attack. So there are things that could be chalked up to just mental distress or physical illness, and nobody really suspects what's actually happening.

Yeah, So the film starts off that's a good good point there, And the film starts off with the first death we get there is the son of one of these characters, right, that's right, that's right, And we're forced to see his dick because he's falling out a building.

Some terrible Yeah. Yeah, and that's an odd.

I wasn't expecting the full dick shot. I was kind of again angry that I was subjected to this, especially with that woman.

You know, yeah, that that is probably the weirdest shot in the whole movie, just because you're not expecting it.

There's no reason, there's no point in it right in there, but yeah, yeah, it's pointless. And then they show the body flop. I'm like, well, did we have to do the flop too? Like the bounce?

Right?

Yeah?

Yeah, I guess it was one of those moments that they just wanted it to be a you know, a deliberate shock to the audience.

You know, well that there you go and say, and it does too. It grasped your attention because of that that shock factor. For sure. It got me good. And I'm like, who, motherfuckers, did you guys just show me a dick and a dude bouncing off the pavement? What's wrong with you? That was my immediate reaction. I was like, how processing of you folks to do that? Right?

Yeah? Well that that definitely is the point in the movie where you know that really terrible things are going to happen throughout the rest of it. So, yeah, it does have that.

It does set the stage properly correct. Yeah, yeah, so I'm now that'll be related the groundwork there on the plot line. I just want to I just want to ask you this one question before we go any further in the characters and whatnot and how this thing's unfold. There was a nineteen seventy four film also name Ghost Story. Mm hmm, Storry mary Anne Faithful.

That's interesting.

I'm not familiar with it, but is it the same story.

No, it's not the same story, but it's interesting. There's some interesting aspects to it, at the least of which Marianne.

Faithful she's process.

Yeah, she and Mick Jagger both and all the browing stones. In fact, John and I discussed an interesting murder rounding these these folks in Westchester County, you know that Dean of Inequity north of New York City. Last time we discussed this because we discussed the the and John, I'll have more details for a Julia is that But it's the Keith Richard's domestic wife or girlfriend related murder, right, John.

That's right, Yeah, Anita Pallenberg. Yeah, but all those folks they did the process that they were just like the father Church Scientology. They courted celebrities and you know the process. They went after the younger, hipper versions of celebrities that you know, just just like the Scientology did, you know, more established you know, like yeah, room stars and stuff.

And then Keith Richards's wife, they're murdered a fifteen year old. I'm sorry, a gun went off when she was in bed naked with a fifteen year old, is that right?

That is correct? Yeah, he was in her bed and his name was Scott Cantrell and he she she got off for that whole thing very very easily, and I know that the boys family were very upset about that. But it was a very strange incident for.

Sure, due a gun went off accidentally. Is that the story?

Yeah, Well, she claims that he was he was playing Russian Roulette, that he was upset and suicidal and that he you know, he's just the gun went off and he shot himself, but it doesn't appear that the circumstances were ever examined too closely in court to me anyway.

Sure, wow, and this was nineteen eighty, seventy nine or eighty or something like that.

Yeah, that's right.

Yep. So after after Burka, which this is again this falls into the post son of Sam called activity in around that didn't of an equity Westchester County.

That's right, Yeah, Sue.

Do you think I think this secret society as they call it, quote unquote in the book Slash movie is based on anything real because they call themselves the Chowder Society like.

They just about that because there were there was a group of allegedly in the cult during the fifties and sixties. There were a lot of figures of that type involved in the cult. There were doctors and attorneys and judges, and so it could refer loosely to some of those individuals. We know the names of some of them, and when he was writing the Chowter Society, yet it could have referred to some of those established community members. I think that's very likely.

Yeah, you'll recognize one of those names, Julia Carlton Gadgetsek. You know that one.

Now, who's this asshole?

Oh John, please please let her know who Anthony Fauci's ssidekick, Carlton Gadgertak was relative to the Ankers cult.

Yeah, he well, he won a Nobel Prize for medicine in nineteen seventy six something like that. And he was born in Yonkers, but spent a lot of time outside there researching strange diseases in or was he on some of the Micronesian islands or someplace?

Yeah, he brought yeah, Micronesia. He brought about fifty young boys back with him.

Yeah, he was very interested in boys. And when when the Son of Sam case was reopened by Yonkers police department, gadget sick became he was a person of interest and then some and he eventually was convicted of child molestations, served a boy a year in prison, then got out, retreated to Europe and died over there. He he was a strange character, and according to multiple sources, he was present for very specific cultic activities, including allegedly the the sacrifice of a child.

So yeah, god, yeah, why does he look like the composite sketch of the Zodiac killer.

He was a creepy guy. And there's there's a film where they an interview film where they talked to him, and he's he's very He just totally denied reality it, could not admit that he had done anything wrong. But he Wow. David Berkowitz was aware of doctor Gadgetsik because he was a He was a major figure in youngers there.

And he Yeah.

From nineteen seventy to nineteen ninety six, Carlton Gadgasik was the chief of the Laboratory of Central Nervous System Studies that ni in DS at the National Institutes of Health, working directly for none other than Tony Felt.

Oh my god. And they were probably boyfriends him and you can do it, that little fairy fuck I hate fauci, I swear.

So you may know. Carlton gad your sex nephew. He brought us the first season of Stranger Things.

Ah, stop it make up? Oh, come on, you guys. This guy's neph what'd you say is nephew?

I believe if I'm not mistaken, this is his brother's son.

Yes, Oh my god, come on.

He was the chief chief writer and showrunner for season one of Stranger Things.

Just saying, oh my God, probably just.

A crazier thing. Yeah, totally a coincidence. Stranger things. Indeed, I'm sure's behind all of that.

Oh so fucking god, do.

That just blow up your brain hole there, Julia.

Both of you guys are blowing up my brain hole in here. I thought I knew something.

That's well, you do know stuff. That's what I like to do here. We like to exchange ideas. You know, well, we all have a different piece of the puzzle. I feel like, not to make it sound creepy or nothing, but it is a It is a puzzle of sorts, right, it is. I heard it in a song one time. I think it was the beginning of the show The World's a Puzzle. So I don't know why they called this ghost story, but they yeah. I mean, it doesn't have the same you know, plotlines or nothing, but it

He ghost story in every book thereafter pretty much contains some reference to the Yonker's cult and its membership, all the way down to well, they have Mystery listed there in nineteen ninety. By that time he was writing sort of like he had He wasn't writing harder novels any longer, but he was writing really really dark murder mysteries. And there's a minor character in mystery, a police officer, and

Yeah, Well he's so Tavis.

It does that way. It's a hard conclusion to escape, but it Yeah.

Oh my god, that's too specific. I'm sorry, is its way too? It's too specific?

Well, like I said, it's almost like finding a fingerprint. It's that definite, you know, it's hard to discount that.

But yeah, John, what you need to start a podcast?

Well, John, John's a wealth of information, isn't he, Julia, Yes.

Oh my god.

Well, strangely enough, and I'm glad we all find this so interesting, But I don't find a lot of interest in it within the community. It's just not one of those things that people seem to have caught onto really.

I feel like this is one of the more interesting things.

Well, if I made that, if I met you, guys are hitting on exactly why I'm doing these as occult esotic film reviews, because I think the one thing that the folks didn't understand is when they see a picture of these ideas and they can relate to a picture like it makes a lot more It makes a lot more sense to me when I see shit in a picture.

Yeah, yes, absolutely, that's just me.

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.

Julia, Are you special?

As the pop ups? And I color them myself.

Okay, I saw something on the Wikipedia page for the author, though I was going to ask John if he thought it was significant.

Hang on, please pull it back up, please do stand by police. I don't even know what I was doing there. I was just cruising around my tabs, to be quite honest with you.

Well, it looks like the first book. This isn't what I was going to ask. But first, right is my namesake Julia nineteen seventy five. But that's besides the point. It looks like he did some work for or with HP Lovecraft.

And Stephen King.

Stephen King.

Yeah, he and Stephen King wrote two novels together, The Talisman and Black House. Black House. That's one of the rare moments in Straub's career that I just didn't It wasn't very good. But the Talisman is really good, the first book. I really enjoyed that one. I think he edited maybe a volume of HP Lovecraft stories for the Library of America, and unfortunately a lot of that stuff has gone out of print. But that was a really good series books.

Yeah, I wonder what's in the Talisman.

Well, there's a character. In fact, the main villain in that book is named Morgan Slote, and the surname Slope comes from a roommate of John Carrs when he was in the Air Force. Uh So, there's just one clue after another in his books, and it's well, isn't.

There a Laurel Kenyon asshole? Last name Slopeman changed it to do you know how I'm talking about j J.

Are you referring to Jim Morrison's kindergarten classmate, Gail Slopeman, who would later marry Frank Zappa.

Yes, yes, and changed her last name. That's right, that's right, Gail Zappa formerly known Slopeman.

Yes, ma'am.

She was. She was military, right, her family for sure, for sure, that's why she was in kindergarten with Morrison. Yeah. No, that that obviously two connections in my mind, because I think that they sneak little stuff like that. And Gail Slopeman somebody wrote it in the comments.

Yep, there you go, Thank you folks with the interwebs. So these are interesting aspects. So with regards to spy Challa, like, I mean, you got to be in the know on that one, right, yeah, because that my understanding is like like you were pointing out, is like that dude was like you know, you know, no one really knew that name, Like that was one of the ones that minunderstanding. Mary kept close to the best even right he did.

Yeah, I think Maury was right up to the end, he was trying to learn more about all these individuals because he knew they all fit into the larger picture. But Yalla was he's really you read about his history and some of this stuff is is just almost unimaginably awful. He's another one of these people. The reason all these people were there is that they hurt children. That that was the common thread, you know, because that that's ultimately

Wait till you read Program to Kill. You're gonna you're gonna go so far down the rabbit hole. You're gonna be begging me and JJ to pull you back out. I mean, it's it's it's absolutely mind boggling. But I agree with you. I think children are a currency in these cults. They're traded, and they are used for blackmail, among other things, sacrificial.

Well, there you go, right the way I look at it, the way I look it's the episode ride. I apologize and mean to.

Cut you off, Julia, No, yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

I look at the epicenter of the activity of these spooky blackmail operations, and you know, I've read enough cruelly and I'll be going that on unpacking my satanic panic series. Literally again, I'm not trying to inform my own opinions, thoughts, or ideas against their judgmental on all these people. I'm using their words to describe these things. And there's a lot of kid diddling stuff that comes out of what

Well you should talk to William Ramsey about the West Memphis three too, because that came out of the Satanic Panic and that was all weird Crowley worshiping short stuff.

So, I mean, and I'll be using that as an example of my series, but I'm actually gonna be going over the cases and comparing the Satanic Panic around these major events, but using cases emphasized. This is a greater deal just like John's doing here in the Sun A Sam series. There's a greater number of cases that are not being depicted in the conversation because this is a larger pattern of behavior in the codect.

Mm hmm, well, I mean even in this movie. I think they reference in the movie uh something about occultism several times or like cult activity several times they do.

And on that note is is this is this an accurate statement that we hear from the chat? I appreciate this statement there Wallhead Rex, so car was O t O O t O Roade Strub's attorney and Strub edited out the OTO reference.

Strup did, in fact edit out a reference to the OTO in the original hardcover version. That's right.

That's a fucking barn burner right there, folks.

Yeah, he changes the name of the group to the XXX, which has a convoluted Latin it means something in Latin. But he changed the name in the paperback to the XXX. But he also rolls into that multiple references to the Processed Church. In fact, the villainous who is she keeps coming back with the initials a M. Those are just the initials of Marianna Grimston reversed. So there's a lot of cult references and their conscious references. But yes, that's true.

Blown up a brain hole, John, you're blowing up a brain.

Hole reference in in the in the original edition of the book.

Yeah, And to the person who left that comment, uh way, Headrex?

Is that? How?

Whyhead Rex? Who the fuck are you? Why do you know so much? That was awesome? I mean, John obviously was gonna say, but still, that was awesome.

I didn't Yeah, that's great stuff. I didn't know that at all. That's that's as I mean, it's an interesting aspect to understand when you you see the folks that get but hurt about their names appearing stuff. I had referenced earlier that creepy fellow Micha Lookino email and Dave McGowan saying how dare you and McGowan basically just laughing them off with.

Facts, Yeah, with facts, literal facts like hello.

Yeah, I'm really glad that people are coming about these things because this is a discussion that that people have so seldom. I mean it, it's this stuff is almost never talked about, especially in relation to the fictional references to real life people and events. I just well, like I said earlier, it's so obviously a separate confirmation that the Yonkers case actually did happen, that this cult existed,

Well, I've found John, I'll give you my and I don't want a tangent or anything, but I just talked about this on a podcast recently, and you might agree or disagree, but I find it interesting that the willingness of people to listen to podcasts but not to read anything.

Yeah, right right. It's sad.

It is sad, But I think that's why it's so cool, like when we can talk about it in podcast form. Because obviously I love to read. I don't have any problems sitting down and reading The Ultimate Evil or Program to Kill Strange Things from the Canyon. I have no

I like your approach though, that's a pretty solid approaching out there. What you're saying, you're reading books and then trying to you know, instead of realizing folks don't read books, and then you try to digest that into a format. Then I did digestible podcast podcast.

Yes, yeah, that's I mean, that's what I like to do on my show. That's why I think John would be successful at it, because it's obviously something that's very interesting, but people just don't want to read. Isn't that sad? People don't No one want to take the time.

Well, on my substect, that's what I try to give it to people, like like you're talking about indigestible form, you know, you give them just a few paragraphs and hopefully it's not so complicated that it overwhelms them, but it gives them enough to think about and maybe that'll part their interest and then they'll go read a couple

Real life shit.

Yeah, Yeah, that's a great blog piece. Specs. You definitely check this out. Isn't be in the show notes for folks to check out.

Joe, doesn't Susan Conway remind you of Tuesday Weld a little bit.

She plays a very similar role in the in this scene that I think is Tuesday well plays overall and especially in the Hollywood scene.

Yeah, and they're both like priestess level. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. You gotta look into Tuesday well if you haven't, John, because she's another rabbit hole that just never ends. But it's like the ones, the ones in these these cults who are actually the upper echelon, They actually get in a shielded or hidden or occulted from mainstream view, which I come on, are you said very interesting? What are you talking about?

You mean to tell me people aren't how accountable for their activities? Is that around the right?

Yeah?

What you mean?

Is that what you want me to believe? I do want you now? That is the pattern time and time again. Right.

Mm so this this uh in the in the movie actually too. I wanted to get your thoughts on this.

May I just make a point on your book booking on your statement there, Juliet, relative to national security on our left and relative to process church folks who walk on our right. Cocaine Bob here walked on trafficking charges in cocaine in nineteen eighty no time, and he walked on murder charges in nineteen eighty eight of the Roy Raiden murder courtesy of Charles Manson's friend Ira Render, then

But you know how many people know that you that's true? Like and like whoever is listening to this podcast right now, Well we.

Gotta yeah say we got we got one hundred and seventy plus folks that are learning these things right now. So that's again, this is all right, definitely a barn burner. I appreciate. I just I got to bring in the Cocaine Bob factor in my back.

Yeah yeah, I mean that.

He's an I never leave.

You cut out for like a second.

The uh so, Yeah, I mean I just think you know, again, we're we're kind of drawing patterns of these activities and people, but you know, these people don't get hell accountable, do they.

No, No, they really don't. There was a handful of people in the case of Son of Sam who were members or affiliates of the cult who died in odd ways, you know, in the few years after Burkewitz's arrest. But the people hire up the ladder. Yeah, there very rarely are any consequences for them, unfortunately.

For sure. And I just want to highlight this before we move on Peter Strobe, unless y'all have anything else on Strobe. But he says he wrote ghost story. The reason I chose to write scary books was because at the time there were only three horror novels, and they'd been enormously successful with The Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby and the other. And I just like to remind everyone Rosemary's Baby was

Yeah, I would. I wish I knew more about him personally, because it's it's just so obvious that he had a first hand source, you know. Yeah, but it's the kind of thing that he was never going to talk about openly. I mean, he he talks about certain influence, you know, literary influence and stuff on Ghost Story. He talks about you know, uh, Nathaniel Hawthorne and Henry James and all that. But but those are the obvious things. What's not so obvious? Hey?

There you go. What do we don't know that we don't know that we do? They know that we don't know.

Yeah, And I just I wish, I wish it was a wider discussion. I'd like to bring more people into it, you know, because somebody's going to know something about this somewhere. We just have to bring him into the circle and and get everybody to talk about it.

Well.

To add on to your point really quick about this author and why I feel like it's significant is because someone that I comment on constantly that I actually have a poster right here, Stanley Kubrick. He put into his movies things that were not in the novels, right like the Shining clockwork Orange, Lolita, you know. And the guy who wrote a Clockwork Orange actually ripped off the idea from a conversation that Stanley Kubrick was having with someone

This up, it's Anthony Burgess. Like you, He's also got a weird.

Stories, right, Anthony Burgess. So why I bring that up is because Stanley Kubrick was supposed to direct The Exorcist, but he passed it up. He said he didn't want to do it, and so they got William Friedkin to do the Exorcist. But then because he passed up on the Exorcist, they asked him to do The Shining and he took it and flipped it and made it a cult and esoteric and it it is what we have today. But then look at the other book slash movie that's

Yeah, for sure, I would argue it's them trying to basically a public initiation of some of the cold ideas. Because you mentioned freaking he ties into the gay club s and m scene with this tale relative to the Son of Sam story of the early eighties in New York City, that death mass story, the death mass story that John wrote about would be this environment here and cruising. In fact, freakin knew the guy that was doing these murders.

But see how they slipped that shit in.

Yeah, and Freaking's it's I'm just friends with this guy who's a gay, gay s and m club serial killer. Don't worry about it, folks, don't worry about it, and go the Cocaine Bible star his buddy Alvil stars the you know in the film about it, right, Because these idiots are just telling that they're bragging about their Speaking of the Braggs we talked about earlier, John, they're just bragging about their shit in my opinion. But yeah, well I'm just the garbage candidates. Who am I to say?

Well, I tell you, and I hope this is not going to sound like bragging, because it really isn't. But it's just such an innoc capable connection I have to mention it. In reference to Cruising, the Los Angeles punk rock band The Germs. They did a couple of songs for the sound Actually they did about half an album's worth of stuff for the soundtrack of that film, but only one of the songs wound up being used. Uh, there is cult history there, Yeah, in in In Darby Crash's background.

Though, came from that band. Yeah, no ship, Yeah.

George Ruthenberg, Yeah, I don't. A good friend of mine knew Darby fairlywell. She was involved in that scene and in fact she was Nicholas Shrek's first wife.

That's right, you told me about that.

But we were good, good friends. And Uh, I learned a lot reading about Darby because he I believe he was almost certainly programmed. Uh, and that's probably a story for another time, but but.

He was a story from our time because I just put a pen in that there that' stuff. This is all very interesting, Please continue.

Yeah, Actually, there's a lot of strange history there. He very early on, when he was still in high school. He had people from scientology and est and all these organizations actively messing with the heads of the kids that attended that school. So yeah, that that's something we could talk about another for sure.

Dude. That exercise into my speaking of weird McGowan's weird scenes inside the Canyon. I took the framework of his story, the salient characteristics and points that he identified theirs. That was the framework of that operation in Laurel Canyon. I applied that same framework to Seattle rungs counterculture and it's the exact same fucking thing. And Pat Smer is part of that counterculture. That's interesting.

Yeah, the Nirvana you know, weird.

Yeah, he came in there in love. Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's yeah, there's a lot of a lot of a lot of weird tana have been getting on with those topics. But back to the ghost story here. The tonight's topic you can hand which I do appreciate your folks time at the interwebs in of course John and Julia and your conversation. I'm learning a lot here, as I always do with both of you all in conversations and podcasts.

Right, I'll I'll do. I'll say that doctor Jeffrey is the disheveled, the guy in the chef's head Douglas character.

Yeah, yeah, he's my favorite one out of the bunch. He's my favorite one out of the bunch.

Ricky is the teddy bear faced one. I think right now, maybe Ricky is the chef's hat guy.

I think Freda Staire's Kerman. I could see him, you know, cutting a rug.

What's the last one's name.

Well, it started out as Gonzo. He went through a couple of morphs, you know what I mean, in the GCD Muppet Factory, so it didn't come out as Gonzo, but he started as Gonzo.

No, but the guy, the last guy in the movie, the fat guy always sits in the chair.

Yeah, that's a good question. So we got Fred Astaire, right, and start these four old muppets that you'll see there and depicted in the My My Muppets Take Take the Ghost Story Invasion. There we got the cast of Fred Astaire, Ricky Hawthorne, right, we got Melvin Douglass. Y'all just mentioned doctor John Jeffery. He's trying to out out JJ mee, that son of a bitch, Douglas Fairbanks Junior, Edward Charles Wanderley, and John Houseman Sears James Okay.

John Houseman is the Teddy bear faced one?

All right, fair enough?

I think that's yeah.

And then obviously Alice Kreig is Miss Piggy for sure.

So when, uh, was there anything about the director or executive producer? I mean, it's all a little it about the executive producer, but the director, he didn't really do much of note or of colts or anything that's seemingly of significance, to be quite honest with you.

Besides, yeah, I forget how he was assigned to this project. I though the screenwriter h Lawrence Cohen. He had done the screenplay for Carrie, the film version of Carrie. Yeah, really really great job with that. Yeah, And you can tell that he read Ghost Story because quotes from the book pop up here and there, you know, throughout the film.

My only question with this guy, and you all may have the same kind of Julia maybe thinking the same thing as well there with your processed church understandings, what was this dude doing in London in nineteen sixty four, Because I'd be curious to them be saying out in the Mayfair district that would that the plot was thick And if he's if he's linked with the process in the Mayfair district in sixty four, that's all I'm saying,

Right, yeah, well he's the right age range, so it could.

Yeah. Right, he'd been twenty four years old the time he'd been writing their Wheelhouse of Croup. I would imagine yeah now, and I just say that because like he's doing stuff for and and broadcasting film Ember in BBC. Looks like in that timeframe, right, see made for TV films over there and whatnot.

Yeah, it says something about Christopher Walking in the eighties he.

Made Yeah, so this was his first movie. Yeah, this was his first movie in America, and then Ghost Story was number two. But yeah, dogs of.

JJ you cut out jj uh Oh he's froze. Are you there? Yeah, you're back, you back?

Yeah. He also would do raw deal with that shitty the shitty Belushi in Schwarzenegger.

I remember that one.

Well, you know, Christopher Walking is a whole nother podcast topic, especially his weirdness with what's your Name? Natalie?

Natalie would yeah, Natalie.

Oh, yeah, for sure. This is this is a this is a weird movie. This is weird. I'm reading the synopsis. This is a fucking weird movie, dude.

It looks like he has black Face on.

Based on the Angola mercenary situation.

Like, why are they making this movie in the first place, what's the And then they say that they based it off of a phrase from William Shakespeare. I just feel like there's a lot more to this film too, right.

William Shakespeare looks like an interesting one, and I would wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that, you know, a lot of those mercenaries that wound up in Angola, they were trained at Jonestown, the same grounds there, right.

You know exactly what I'm talking about, sir. This is the interesting details you're picking You're picking up what I'm what I'm talking about there, Johnny, You're a very smart man. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

I've just been that same note.

On that same note that that creepy sigh op situation or whatever the hell it popped off in Minnesota over the weekend with those lawmakers up there getting marked in the middle of the night. That dude operates a security company out of the Congo. And that's the first thing I thought of when I read that detail, is what you just said there, john.

Yeah, Yeah, things are still happening. We I think we live in much more interesting times than people might generally think. You know, all the crazy stuff that happened in the sixties and seventies, we still we get our own versions of that even today.

Oh, I tell you, I don't think that. I didn't realize John Irvan did this film. I love this film.

I don't know if I've seen this one.

I have not seen this one.

To give you an abridged version, US Army Airborne Ranger raised an apple aachi at Truman Gates migrates Chicago to become a police officer. That's Patrick Swayze. Oh, hal breaks Lucy starts battling with the mob, which is Ben Stiller was like the son of the mob, and in the the uh, I don't know whatever mob was in Chicago

Well, you know, I love Bill Paxton, but I will just say a.

Lot of ex a lot of excitement. Yeah, Bill Paxton, you got Baldwin.

Which bald is that?

That's not no, it's the non Baldwin Baldwin. He'll recognize his face as I go ahead.

I was just gonna say if he was part of the Baldwins. I just learned something very interesting about them today that their bloodline includes all kinds of weird upper echelon, including like several presidents he'll Clinton and like some weird inbred.

Like wait, wait, who was this? Who were we talking about.

The Baldwin family.

Oh, I'm not surprised by any of this. This makes sense to me.

Right, But I mean they were talking about it openly on this podcast thing and oh shit, like bragging about it, like, oh yeah, we're related to you know, upper echelon and like these old in bread fox that used to have klutter palettes and stuff like that. And somebody wrote in the comment section Bill Paxton is dead. I know, And I'm really sad about that because I really loved Tim Well.

Now that I'm now that we're considering John Urbans works and he's more of an esoteric understanding here, I also love Bill Paxton. By the way, he's a great actor. I see Joey Rosalini here is the name listed as this character that kills Liam Neest in that story. And that's interesting because you know, Johnny Roselli was the famous mobster out of Chicago associated with the JFK Biz and a lot of the other characters were discussing here within these this processing kind of element, right.

Johnny Roselli was also tied up with Marilyn Monroe.

Well, that's what I'm saying. His sidekick was Frank Sinatra, and Frank Sinatra and the entire rat pack. In my opinion, we're involved with the process, not just Mia Farrow's wife, not just Sammy Davis Junior, right, the stars of who starred in Bob Cocaine, Evans and Roman Planski's cinematic shit show to Satanism Rosemary's Baby. But there's more connections, and

No, I don't have anything to add.

How about the executive producer, Bert Weissberd.

Is he an asshole or not? Yeah?

Again, he didn't really like these guys didn't really seem to do a lot of significant stuff after this film.

Yeah, I just remember seeing his name in the credits of the movie, but I don't know anything about him.

Uh, there's not much. Yeah, I couldn't find much about him either, to be quite honest with you.

Looks like the film. There was Sam Sheppard, which is interesting because he was he had a thing with Patty Smith for a little while.

So well as you say that he started and that's Sam Shepherd and he starts with with Sissy SpaceX. So what do you got on Sam Shepherd?

Yeah, he was just he he had a brief affair with with Patty Smith and they they wrote a play about it, Cowboy Mouth. But they're both actually performed in course that's named after Bob Dylan lyric. But yeah, mainly just his his association with Patti Smith.

There, hear me if I'm wrong, One of these cult nicknames for Ronald Sisman was Sissy SpaceX.

Right, that's right, Yeah, that's right.

And Sissy Spacek was a Ford model, was she not? I believe she was. My guess, my my other quote, my let me let me rephrase that this would not be the only Ford model connected to the son of Sam's situation, right.

Right right that?

Yeah, yeah, I believe that's where she starts off. Though I was working for the Ford Modeling Agency, and if I can unfuck my ability to click links here and move my dubie out of the way, I'll let us know that for certain. But I'm pretty there were some there were some wasn't Wasn't there a Ford Modeling Agency connection? What am I thinking of besides possibly her? What was going on there with that?

There?

I've heard something about that, but I'm I'm reaching back years to figure out what I heard about it, and I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was, there.

Was Let's let's put a penn put it for a future one because well, future one is in two seconds from now after I read this. Because in nineteen sixty under the stage name Rainbow, she recorded a single John You Went Too Far This Time, the lyrics of which chida John Lennon and for his Yoko Owner his new album for two versions. So that's interesting. Basic worked as a photographic model represented by Ford Models.

There you go, oh, there it is and is an.

Extra Andy Warhol's right, So you have more connections with the Velvet Underground. Uh, allegedly linked to this through folks like Lou Reid. Right, Lou was Mabel Thorpe Smith, kind of that Velvet Underground Andy Warhol.

Next, he knew Petty and he played with her on stage a couple of times. Uh. I'm not sure exactly how extensive Lou's involvement in this stuff was, but he must have known about it because all these people were doing this stuff at that point, you know.

Yeah, they're they're, they're they practiced at the Andy Warhol studio that was there, much like the Birds did Polkas the studio, right, Julia the the the Velvet Underground did Andy Warhol studio. So we see the more comparisons.

Did you.

Watch Men in Black? The third Men in Black movie.

With with Josh Brolin?

With Josh Brolin, Yeah, do you remember how they said Andy Warhol was a CIA agent and all the models were, Yeah, they were extraterrestrials, which I know, but I do think they were making a reference to Andy Warholl being c I A for sure.

I don't want to Yeah, I don't want to derail this too much because you just brought in a connection with his stepmother, back to all these these characters that brought Barbara streisand however, and that was with her with Warren Batty, the Young Turk. So there's a lot of these connections with these with these people. Right. So, well, we've I think we just put a pen at least in my brain hole for a future couple of conversations here.

There.

I'm open to it. I couldn't really find anything too creepy about the guy, So I'm again, I'm open to it.

But yeah, I've never heard of he's he's never heard any particularly bad stories about it. The interesting thing about him for the role is that in the novel, Peter Straub says he describes Ricky Hawthorne as looking like Freda Staire, so presumably that's that's why he and Peter Straub himself said that that was one of his favorite things about the movie was that Freda Staire played the role.

Wow, Okay, you know the main star is of this whole story is actually really just the author, Like he made this what it is.

You know, Yeah, I think it's the story could have been told by somebody else, but but being told by him made it special. I think it did. Yeah, because it's it's a really really great book and it's uh, I can't think of a single more brilliant author of popular fiction than Peter Stroud. But it just man to know that he was aware of a lot of this stuff.

Is just uh well, yeah, came out for.

A couple of years. Yeah, it was hard to to see it in a different life that way, but yeah, sure.

Well I think one thing I thought was interesting with Hysteric, especially because I think it's good for all four of the main cast members. This is their last film, right.

That's true. Well except for John Houseman.

Yeah, he did a couple more.

Okay, he was the growth angry guy.

Oh okay, and bring that up for you. I don't know why I don't what happened to him? Here hold on stand By Police. Yeah, he's he's a pretty notable voice and face right in Hollywood and Housman over the years he was.

Yeah, he did a lot of commercials and he didn't act until later in life. He was an acting coach for a long time. He worked at UH I think at Paramount. He was a good friend of Raven Chandler. But he didn't act until fairly late in life.

Well, that's interesting, Paramount. You say.

He died on Halloween.

That's yeah, Yeah.

That's weird.

Let's see how I don't know enough about him to tell you how that went down, so essentially, well, I mean, sorry, eventually we'll get down there.

I think he looked pretty bad the last time I saw him. I can remember him.

But yeah, oh yep, spinal cancer.

See.

I didn't know he was married to Zita Johan, but she was. She had a really odd mystical quality about her. She was in the Mummy with Boris Karloff. I had no idea that John Housman.

Was married her, but she was interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah, he appears with some scientologists as his last film looks like yeah, yeah, Priscilla Presley and Orenthal, James Simpson scientologists.

God, he was the driver's ed instructor in that. Yeah.

Yeah, well me and JJ just did an episode.

On O j Oh. Folks were loving that. Julia Again, I have to thank you again for even suggesting that, because the folks have been enjoying that one. For sure.

That was a real born I enjoyed myself. Actually, that was a really fun episode. I was gonna say, you know, just I don't know if it's the right time to bring it up or not, but you know what I thought, So maybe you guys. Obviously John's gonna disagree because he read the book and he already knew what was going

Yeah, I mean it is the eighties. It seemed like the rapier era of films. So I agree with you, But.

Like you know what I'm saying, there's another I mean, like you could.

Make Porky's in this day and age, right, you know what I mean? It was very rapey right, right.

Well, it just it looked like all of them had a crush on the main character, right, and they all wanted her, but she was only interested in one of them. So that scene at the end where they're all trying to take turns dancing with her, I was like, Oh, I know what's gonna happen. They're gonna take turns rape in her. They're going to accidentally kill her, and that's gonna be why she her ghost is coming back to

Well, I don't know though, if I made just interject when they were dancing with her, I took that as them having sex with her. So you saw three of the four have sex with her, in my opinion, because three of the four danced with her, right, But.

It didn't show them having sex with her, right.

But I'm saying it was a metaphorical I think that to me, that was the metaphor that they were all hooking up with homegirl and they're passing around because they were all you know, it's like the song from the eighties with the Billy idol dancing with myself. It's about masturbation, you know what I mean.

Well, yeah, but there is another horror movie. That's why I say, I feel like this book that got turned into a movie obviously was the predecessor for the idea of several several several future horror films. One of them is called Stir of Echoes. It actually has Kevin Bacon. It's one of my favorite horror movies.

Kevin Bacon, ma'am the Kevin Yeah.

The Kevin Bacon. And it's basically, this girl gets raped by a bunch of dudes and they accidentally kill her, and they hide her body somewhere and she comes back as a ghost and haunts them all and is trying to kill her.

That sounds very very ghost story. In a novel, she's she's much more predatory. She gets drunk and she insists that they all drink and dance with and they're like starting to recoil from her, but she's being really vicious and awful, and she grabs jaffery and says, kiss me a little toad and all that stuff that she says in the movie, and then one of them pushes her away, just like you know, because they're all awkward and young,

And yeah, yeah, there in lies there curse of this lady, not the curse of of Robert the dollmind you, which I you know, like a curse. Nonetheless, And and before if I may have, before we go deep dive into the full storyline there and how these things unfold, if we could just finish off going over these four actors that comprise these roles here, if we mentioned Melvin Douglas, he's one of the he's the next guy. He's the doctor, right, he's the jaffery guy. Yeah, what are your thoughts on

Uh, I'm guessing he was. He had been in The Changeling, another horror film, Yeah, a year earlier, and that's they were probably thinking about the casting for that film. That's a really good one.

Is the Is that the same Changeling that would that would later get remade with uh Angelina Jolie.

I'm not sure.

Oh that I don't know same name.

Though, right, yeah, it's the same name. I'm just curious as to if it this was the original and the one that Angeline and Joelie did was a remake because the one that she's in was about child trafficking and program serial killers.

That's this one, right, Yeah, it's a different spot line.

Yeah, like a straight haunted house movie. But it was written well.

So Melvioln dovelason that that'll be an interesting one to check out. And then was was there anything else that jump at you? With the with old mill here?

He's like a classically handsome guy for the era.

Do you mean handsome.

Handsome?

No, you know what I mean, like Rock Hudson, you know what I mean. He famously joined Scientology of the same kind of era of acting, and you know, hide his homosexual activities, right, you know.

That there's definitely some There's always going to be some of that.

Right right. He just kind of he struck me as a very rock huts and type of character, is what I'm saying.

Mm hmm.

So the one thing I found most interesting about this guy is he did a film called Be There, Be There with Peter Sellers, famously of the Ciela Drive. Manson Tate Plansky processed church situation out there in Siella Drive that culminated in the Manson Family murders. Peter Sellers was the regular and so was the director of this film. That was Ruman Plansky's best friend Jerry cool Zenski.

So he's besties with all those fucks.

Huh, Jerry Kazinsky right here, you know this was this was the best friend born and Paul and this is best friends of old Rum and Polanski. You know, Rouman Plansky friends with old Cocaine Bob Roman Plansk.

Oh, here we go.

I saw being there, but it was years and I would have been a little kid when I saw it, So I don't remember much about it, but I do.

Yeah, I don't know much about either. I mean, it says it's a satirical comedy drama, which is an odd phrasing of a genre of words in my opinion. So Peter Sellers, y'all know about him relative to the Manson situation and the process seeing out there and La in sixty nine sixties.

Yeah, I've read about it in Dave Mcowan's work.

Well, there you go. What do you recall from that? Because he was very tight right with this is? This is Peter Sellers with Sharon Tate and Christmas is sixty eight.

I somehow, maybe I'm fucking this up, But wasn't he also somehow friends with the Wonderland Avenue people too?

Oh? That that would be interesting. I'm not sure that would be interesting though.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Maybe I'm remembering the whole scene.

That's the whole scene now, I mean, that's those people were integrating the whole scene come the seventies, right.

Yeah, like he bought drugs from them or something.

I don't know that wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised, would Yeah, I would say most people, now go ahead.

I was just gonna say. Somebody put in the comments. Yeah, Peter Sellers was a cruel psychopath behind closed doors, much like how they describe Frank Zappa among.

Other same scene though, right these guys, right, I mean sailors, I mean Sellers. So amongst these, uh, the various videos and pornographies, et cetera that we're allegedly filmed at Cielo Drive, Sellers was deep in that mix, apparently, along with folks like I mentioned before, Josh Brown, stepmother's old boyfriend, Warren Batty.

Oh, Warren Baty, don't get me started on him.

Best Buds Kissinger and Cocaine Bob National Security never looks so sleazy. I like that. I like that phrasing. Todd Miller appreciate that. So, yeah, I think it's odd. You see this deep connection with all these kind of even within this film, right, you got these people that you know, you got Jerry Kazinski in the orbit, you got Peter Sellers in the orbit of of uh what's his name? Uh, Melvin Douglas.

Well, it's kind of like guilt by association, right, your friends circle is got it's.

Weird, you know, the Beatles and Stones and Keith Richards living next to h John Phillips and yeah yeah, m m hmm.

So the next the last guy we got here is the main the main four old dudes is Douglas Fairbanks Junior.

Yeah, ned the mayor.

Yeah, I got something interesting please. It says his first marriage was to actress Joan Crawford. Isn't she the one that beat her kids up and locked him in rooms and beat them with hangers and ship ship? Okay, yeah, yeah, you've never seen mommy dearest JJ. Well you're fucking up, because that is an amazing movie and there's a lot

And I always thought she was one of the people that you could tell just looking at her that something was a little off, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, JJ, you need to watch that because I even put I even took something from this movie and I put it into my intro for my podcast because it's just so iconic. But anyways, yeah, she was horrible to her children who she adopted, and she was in the Have you ever seen a weird horror movie from back then called Baby Jane?

I've actually heard of that. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Happened to Baby Jane?

Whatever happened to Baby Jane?

One of my fav you're talking about.

She's in it. And the first time I watched it, my mom was like, oh, do you know the true story about what she did to her care kids? And then we hadmidarist after that. But yeah, Jill Crawford real fucked up.

I'm definitely gonna be watching that. I appreciate that, thank you.

Mm hmmm.

So what else did her? So what these weren't that This wasn't the dad of that, right? Yeah?

Uh no, No, you talked about her kids?

Yeah, her kids? Yeah, okay, oh that's right, you just said that. You just said that.

Well, that's what makes it worse is because like she hated kids, So why the fuck would you go and adopt two kids?

I think public image because she was seen as kind of a brittle, unpleasant sort of person, and they told her, you know, if you had some kids, it would improve your public.

Image, right, And so she basically JJ she would like John Banam and like dress them up in Christmas outfits and stuff and like parade them around like they were so happy, and you know, and the kids were just getting tied up at night and beat with hangars and all kinds of stuff. It's it's crazy. It's crazy.

Word out huh yeah, mmm, worn outer kids. So this is what I found interesting about Fairbanks. During World War Two, he served as a commissioned officer in the US Navy and enter World War Two and assigned a Lord Mountbatten's commando staff in the United Kingdom.

And he married a psychopath that beats her kids.

Right, Oh, you'll like this one. Also, he was he was later implicated in the Profumo scandal.

That's yeah, yeah, that's pretty much a direct connection to the process. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's long been suspected that Marianda Grimston was one of the prostitutes in that scandal, but it's not been confirmed, but there is to heavy suspicions of such.

Yep.

So he's the most interesting actor thus.

Far, between him and Douglas my opinion, you know those two.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

So we get back into the plotline of the film. As we've said, these four old men, sensibly at least metaphorically speaking of the film, seemed to have raped this young woman and she John, as you mentioned, she falls down and and they think she's dead because she gets her head right, that's right.

Yeah, this is.

The witchy woman that looks like Suzanne Conway right, Alma.

Right, right, or or Eva her name is at that time, right, And it's I hate to keep bringing this up, but it's just so there are so many points that there was a real Eva and the character who appears later in the Who the chatter society consults to see if he can solve their problems. Is done well. There were a real Don and Eva in the book. They're called

You ain't you can, dude. That's that's like on the money, on the money, it really is.

Yeah, yeah, and that's right, Marie. It was yeah, yeah, yeah, dude.

I mean at some point, like what, at what point in time did you consider like that Strawba obviously knew a lot about this, like how many details of these before you're like, wait a second, this is something's going on here.

You know. It was maybe late twenty twenty. I was rereading it for Halloween, like I do every year most years, and it was I was sitting in my chair one night and he was talking about neighborhoods in different places in this fictional city of Melbourne, and because I had been doing research, I just realized that every place he's talking about is just a Yonker's reference, Like all the street names. There's a minor character in the book named Venudi.

Well, relative to that Wanderley guy you were just talking about there, it says you're in your blog post. In the book's prologue, a man named Don Wanderley has kidnapped a young orphan girl from a park in Melbourne. It's down in New York State. He drives her to Panama City, which is the location of where John car was station.

It says, that's right, that's right. Yeah.

I just wanted to say this comment you got posted, Todd said, I learned everything about the Dutro scandal from Julia's show. Great work, Julia. Just want to say that comment means the world to me because I worked tirelessly on that presentation for Program to Kill. I spent months putting that presentation together. So thank you Todd and this stuff we're talking about today is no different. I mean, all of this this stuff, this the references he's making

They think that it really is. Yeah, they think it's funny.

You'll laugh about it, right, Yeah, they think covered I covered all this in Dragnet. I didn't know. I'm sorry, go ahead, Julia.

No, I was just gonna say. They think it's absolutely hysterical that we just watch movies and read books and you know, it's right in front of our face and we'll just never know, especially what John was talking about earlier with that guy's last name, Like, who else is going to put that together?

Yes, Pacaula. Yeah, so I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. So the I did a Nicolet esoteric review a number of weeks back on Dragnet. So folks to the interwebs or John or jolly of you folks want to check it out.

Uh oh, j Keith Frousin, Yeah, he'll probably be back in a second.

Yep.

In my back, my back, my back, Yeah, you're back. It's a nineteen eighty seven cinematic masterpiece Dragnet a cult and esoteric review where we go over the elements of the process being told there, and I'll just use to emphasize my point, I'll bring up one one character from the film and show you the murder of Roy Raidin. Right, So back to back to my favorite character here at Operation GCD Cocaine, Bob Boy. He was the unindicted co conspirator in the murder of Roy Raiden, so the one

He had a long he had on a cult background. He apparently was pretty serious about his occultism.

He was.

He's been alleged to have been involved with Son of Sam, particularly the Christine Freud murder. He was supposed to have been on the scene there, if not the actual shooter. And he's well, he has a he's another one of these people. He's a movie into himself.

That you ain't kidding.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was mentioned in Program to Kill as being like they linked him somehow to being an offshoot of like after the Manson family murders went down, there was the Common Club, Yeah, and then this guy yeah, uh huh, all process offshoot kind of weirdos.

So one of the other things he was notorious for was being the security guard and chauffeur of Larry Flant. And in the nineteen eighty seven cinematic Masterpiece were introduced to Jacko Hallahan's character Ian ol muzz He is the security guard and driver of the pornographer in the film, which is in part a machination of what I would

Like somebody who wrote the stuff knew exactly what was happening, and they knew who the players were.

Defin to speak. You see what I'm saying, how much you no, I agree to but you see how much these dudes look. I mean, they played the same role, right.

I'm on, and they're playing like the same he's playing the real guy, you know what I mean?

And oh, haller hand don't look anything like like they had. This is all made up with the hair and the mustache they gave to him there. So and it's interesting because this is what I like the joke when you this is what reminded me of this. You all were talking about the bragging. So Bob Cocaine Evans went and saw the film Wag the Dog right with Dustin Hoffman.

In my froze my back, my back, So I didn't know if it was me or you. Yeah, you're you're back.

Yeah. So Evans makes both de Niro in Hoffman's careers. Hoffmann's playing a saturial take on I just think that de Niro is doing the kind of a cterial take on Henry Kissinger there. But nonetheless he walks out of the theater and says, I thought it looked great. So when this film came out in nineteen eighty seven, I often wonder if this fellow, who was not arrested until August of eighty eight, walked out of that same film and said, I thought I looked great on the big screen.

I bet he did, you know, because they said too when he was when he was arrested, they found a copy of Maury's book and it had his parts underlining the book. And he told somebody that they in this book they described what I did as a perfect crime, which wasn't actually true. But he he had that conscious vanity about himself that when he knew he was being written about or depicted in the movie, he was. He knew about it, you know, he was. He was happy about it.

Somebody had seen something in the commons here, Hang on, is.

It Kane b He was friends with the box.

Fast Eddy the one before that. He's somebody's talking about a movie that rolls of Dan Aykroyd.

But fast Eddie was the mina somma bitch I've ever met in my life. I think Kane's actually telling you now an actual story here. He used to work for a tourist trap restaurant in the eighties. Oh so, because Kane used to live in San Diego in the eighties. That's interesting, Kane. So he was friends with Bill, your

Yeah, you're good, You're good. I was just reading the comments over here.

It looks like I don't know. Oh, go ahead.

I was just gonna say, look like headless is in the comments. People are on fire tonight. We got all kinds of stuff coming through. This is awesome.

It's good stuff. I appreciate the folks with your webs and joined the show and commenting here on the on the chat, so where did we leave off before I went on a cocaine bob excursion.

We were talking about how she basically they kill her. No, was that what we were talking about.

Yeah, we were saying how it was similar. They were bragging about these stories, right, But no, they killed the woman on accident. And then the next thing we see, right, is one of the character's sons falling out of a building, showing us as dick.

And you don't realize at first that she's get you. The woman he's with is is the one that the central figure.

Right.

That's a good point too. I thought you meant you don't realize at first they're going to show you his dick because I didn't realize that.

They show you plenty of of tit action too. And but from this ship, I had.

No idea Dan Ackroyd bought Mama Cass's house, Get the fuck out of here. That's awesome stuff. Come on, because he already he's already he's already questionable enough starring opposite Tuesday Well, the nineteen ninety five film starring Keanu Reeves and Courtney Love Feeling Minnesota.

Yeah, and that Dan he has a serious interest, like in ghosts and UFOs and just the paranormal.

Well, absolutely, John, and I cover that. You'll you'll enjoy this comparison. I cover that in that Dragonet film that he you know, went into some of the Ghostbusters activities. I think he has raised a cult bookstore was based upon the Magical Child.

I wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it.

And Mama Cass's house makes sense to me.

Hey, look, if you start opposite, they will makes sense to me.

That's like Jared leto buy and lookout Mountain Laboratory. Yeah, and he's doing some kind of cult activity.

That was originally Natalie Woods house. Holy Masicious, that's some great stuff you got that. I didn't know that either, Holy Ship. Who is this? It's Masicious. That's not Ship, it's only Masicious.

She has a lot of good information. I know her. She's research.

Yeah, thank you man. That's a that's some awesome stuff.

Yeah, some awesome stuff.

I don't know. Nicholas Roorck, who's that?

Oh?

The Russian painter? Who's that sort of mystical?

Is it a weirdo child diddler cannibals.

Just sort of known as a painter of like mystical and occult subjects. Thank you made glad you're listening tonight.

May I need to get you on my show? What the fuck? Geez? People in the comments are going John, you brought the best audience tonight. Holy crap.

That's not that is that is that May? May May Zech Do I know this Maze? Is this one of your followers?

Well, we're just fellow researchers.

And nice because it sounds like I need to I need to know this person.

Yeah, it's both interested in the same kinds of things. And I'm so glad.

I didn't know dan Aykroyd bout that fucking house. That's I mean, I look a lot of these details.

I didn't either. But it's so great that people are talking about this stuff because it really is. It's not. This aspect of it has not discussed a whole lot, I don't think, or maybe it is privately, but I've just never been able to engage a whole lot of people in the Son of Sam community in this hype.

To see the interest John, I'll hope to see the interests.

I'm gonna have to put my email and if you could, I email JJ at the end of the show so people can reach send me an email, reach out and I want to get May on my show only trade throwing out some crazy info like that. I need to know more.

It's a real barn burner here, Julie. It's a real barn.

Burner burning down the barn. Holy shit.

So after we see the unsolicited dick pic of one of the main characters sons that jumps out of the building because he sees the ghost, right, the ghost comes on him. What's that about? Why is the ghost hunting the man's son.

Well, he's one of the two sons of Ned, the mayor and the the guy that Eve I actually liked in nineteen twenty nine or whatever it was. He's one of the two sons.

He's Do you take it as being liked and Ricky?

Right? Ned and Ricky right? Because the next thing we see is the father chasing after Ricky. He goes to see his dad for the funeral of his brother and tells his dad, Hey, I was sleeping with that lady too, right, Yeah, he tells his dad.

Yeah, but do you take that out right lamb kind of thing? Like the firstborn son, like, I'll get you and your firstborn son kind of thing.

That's what I was thinking, kind of right, a little curse. Yeah, well curse.

I'm not sure how they actually were thinking about it in in the film and in the book, Alma Till's done really specifically that you know, when we get married. I want to go back and get married in the town where you grew up. And I want all your father and all of his friends and everybody in the town to be there, and I want them to see me.

And then the next phrase she says is the phrase she repeats at the end, right, that she's gonna make them all kind of like she's gonna make them all pay, They're all gonna feel or something like that.

That's exactly it. Yeah, it's revenge for what they did to her, albeit accidentally. Now it's funny because in the movie they it sort of inadvertently, I think turns the men and the chatter society into the villains because they just kill this woman who has no she's just a

Right, She's like a siren.

She's like a yeah, a figure, yeah.

Yeah, and can lure you in with like her good looks and stuff. But then she turns running right, Yeah, but think of it like JJ like in The Shining, you know, when it's like a beautiful woman in the bathtub and then he goes to kiss her and she turns into like some weird hag which thing that's like laughing and cackling, Like that's Eva, Like she's like some kind of weird siren.

Which we see that a lot. Though that same sequence you just describe from The Shining, we see that same sequence play over here in this film as well, with this this witchy character, right, this this Eva Alma character. But it is it's that's the call of the siren, is what she's doing when I think when she says, I will take you places you've never been, I will show you things that you've never seen, and I will see the life run out of you. He repeats that numerous times in the film.

It's like a chance. It's like the priestess thing, you know, it's like a spell.

Yeah.

Yeah, but she's learning these men in with, especially Ricky. She lowers Ricky in with that statement, right, m.

Yeah, that's right. And the our real life priestess, that is the the image she consciously affected. She she was like that so Conway, right, Yeah, that was very much her her persona.

You know, yeah, that's I mean, you bring up some good points there. So then we see we see Ricky and is it Ricky Senior? Right, he falls off the bridge. They're chasing Ricky Jr.

Right, Well yeah, but but yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, off the bridge and he sees uh Almah's or Eva's figure. They're approaching him just as he's about to jump off. Yeah.

Yeah. And then and then and after that is when we start getting into the bending of reality, right, because when they go when fred Astaire goes to the house, right, well, that's is that the next scene, right, is that the next part.

It's it's somewhere early in there. I forget exactly when he goes to it. Uh. Now incredibly too that that whole house is a matte painting. It's not even a real hat. That's it's an amazing painting there. But that's Uh. I wish I could remember the name of the guy that did those paintings for the for the fun.

Yeah, I'll look that up here in a second. So we are just looking at the Oh, that's right, so downing his father committed suicide. Don then the remaining three friends and tells them a ghost story, right, approaches the remaining three friends. So then that's when the son is trying to get into the club, right.

Right right, and he uh. They talk to each other because he's a horror author, and I think Riky or somebody suggests or not it's not Ricky, Maybe it's Sears who suggests. Well, Edward's son knows about all this weird stuff, so maybe he could tell us something to sort of calm down a little bit and and keep our imaginations from running away with us. So they asked him to come to town, and he uh, he attends one of their meetings and Uh. Yes, Sears is really grouchy and

Now you're that's spot on, that's what. And the next thing we see is them and he's recounting this story, right, But that's when we meet Alma, right, So that's when it started blurring the boring the reality situation.

Right right before Alma knew his brother who dies at the beginning of the movie, she knew Don, and uh, she approaches him when he's teaching at some university in Florida somewhere, and.

Let me put a in that statement because I got an interesting, little weird thing that I saw on that whole Florida thing. I'll bring us at the end, but please continue.

Yeah. Well, he he falls for her, and initially they're planning to get married, but she just gets weirder and weirder, and he has more of these strange experiences where her he he's it becomes impossible for him to ignore that something's wrong with her, and eventually one day he tells her that he's breaking it off, you know, and so.

She and this is all going on in the past. He's now retelling in the present based upon his brother already hooking up with this girl. Right, So it kind of it's suddenly the whole. When I was watching, I was like, holy shit, did this stuff this all collapsed on me at once? Dude, I didn't see it coming.

Yeah, And that's one of those things that's very much like the book is it's different narratives woven into each other, different time periods, and yeah, it starts to get pretty complex at that point.

Come it comes at you real fast, because then he realized the opening sequence when he saw his brother falling out the building and the dick pic the lady that he's he saw was this Alma ghost. Yeah, I'm sorry's sleeping with Alma, but he sees the ghost of Eva in her and then falls out the window. And then you find out his father is doing the same. And then his brother's like, wait a second, I've been banging this broad for a while. Guys.

So he talks to his brother, he's in a bar and he says, David, don't don't marry her, something's wrong with her, and yeah yeah thereafter yeah.

Wild ship man, wild Ship. Yeah, what was your taking all that, Julia?

Well, I just wanted to note two things I thought were cool from this part of the movie. The fact that he knows Don knows that he has to quote unquote like blood his way into the cult. Right, He's gotta pay his dues, He's gotta tell this story to get into the secret society.

Right when he says the series, he's like John how He's like, hey, I want to get in, and there's John States kind offended, and then he offers up his blood sacrifice, right.

Right, Yeah, So I felt like that was symbolic. And then when it shows him at the university talking to his class full of students, the only thing he's really talking about is being seduced and someone seducing or him seducing someone else, or he's talking about like a short story, but it's all about seduction, and like the weird siren thing, you know.

Yeah, so.

It's it's weird, weird tiren things are I'm spinning because I was You're making a great point, I want to comment, and I was also trying to actually it thumbs up and talk at the same time. Apparently I can't do all at once without spinning on myself. So that's a great point you.

But yeah, no, those were two things that I took out of it. Also just a funny part from the beginning of the movie when the dad goes to pick up the sun from the train station. He's like, look at you. You looked horrible. And he's wearing like a sweater vest in like a button Like if you saw somebody wearing that outfit, you'd be like, oh, he looks nice. Where's he going? And the Dad's like, you look like shit.

He wasn't dressed right. He was dressing you know, really, you know, put together as far as style and whatnot goes. You wasn't doing flannel and headbands what I'm saying, you know. And again it kind of that was an interesting scene to me because it's like he didn't want to the son didn't want to go back there. He already knew that, he already knew the dynamic that they didn't know that he was banging his lady already. He didn't want to

So well I did that. It was another testament as to the elitism of the family, because.

That's what I'm saying, Like he's getting heat from his dad no matter what he does.

Sweater vest looks like ship to the dad, Like what's the dad on? You know? So it's like another testament as to these high elite Secret Society members and their kids, right, dying mysteriously accidentally killing people in their past and covering it up.

Like total accident. Yeah, while we're on the topic, and you bring us some great points. While we're on the topic, was there anything important about the scenes that we see that are the actual scenes?

Right?

And like not the obviously you've made all those correlations between Yonkers and the fictional town of Melbourne with the namesakes of roads and whatnot and people's But we see a couple interesting places like Saratoga Springs is one of the filming locations, right, What's doctor Mont's another one. I believe this was the down I believe this is the downtown setting.

Yeah, I believe that's right. Yeah, I'm not sure if there was any particular reason that they chose those locations. But for the town square, it it looks and sounds a lot like the wheat Row of the book, the town Square of Melbourne in the novel. So that's uh, that's it's very close and tone what what Straw described in the novel.

How about during the Son of sam Era, was there any connections to the Kipps Bay area of Manhattan, Not to.

My knowledge, although a lot of those members did sometimes go to hang out in the city, so it's possible that that there's some that one of them had a connection to to Kipps Bay.

Yeah, I don't as much I know about New York City when I used to hang out there all the time, I never I don't know anything about that region of Manhattan. I was, you know, I was normally found in mcsorley's, the oldest bar in Manhattan. Mcsorley's Old Ale House, a bunch of old, surly Irish dudes. I highly recommend the place,

That definitely was was an area that I think everybody when you go there, you have at least one sort of Stree experience. You walk past some place and you realize that it's a place that you've read about. You weren't consciously seeking it out, but there it is, and you realize you're standing next to it, and it just you know, because there's so many places like that in New York, but mine was the place where William Burrows

Well, well, John Sara, you just signed yourself up for another show here in Operation GCD. Because it is William Burrows who institutes the smiley face as a chaos symbol into the neo process. Movement.

Yeah, yeah, Burrows was, he was, he was something else.

I as always absolute your efforts and all these things, I learned something new. I did not know these these these Boroughs connections. I do need to learn more Burroughs stuff.

Clearly, it's spooky. He was involved in and he admitted, you know, he said I had CIA acquaintances, which I think you underplaying it a little bit. But at the very least.

Yeah, he he a scientologist, John and a scientologists that's right.

That's right, very dedicated scientologist. And one we sure, and that's right DeLand, Florida. And you know, may another thing about DeLand is I believe that's where Burrow's son of Billy Jr. He died in DeLand or somewhere just outside of DeLand, strangely enough, just as we're we're talking about Burrows. Yeah, yeah, but Billy or Willie Junior.

Yeah, guy die his number three, William number three dies March third, nineteen eighty one. Survey says DeLand, Florida.

Yeah. He was a very good writer in his own right, and I to his credit, ultimately, I believe although it caused him a lot of pain in his life, he was not a part of his father's circle. He was very much outside that and was was frustrated and didn't understand all the the weird you know that that weird group of friends, and you know that his father had all the strange stuff that he was involved with. He I think a lot of that was was a mystery

He did diet thirty three.

Though, I'm not gonna y'all rather blow my brain all here, and I don't want to. I don't want to. You're, you know, make some great points and I don't want to direct you from them. But yeah, I do have to get us back on track here with the chapter Society.

Yeah well we'll yeah, well, we'll go ahead and ups as the rest of the oh.

I assure you have both of you receiving emails from me tonight with these various notes of things that come back in the future of an invite. So I do appreciate your time and for blowing my brain. Though, I just like to try to keep this narrative going because I you all just made so many comments that I bit my tongue on. We'll just well, we'll stay we'll stay the path here. We'll definitely be doing these in the future though, these other things.

Yeah, absolutely.

So the next thing we see is Don there getting engaged at Alma.

Huh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, That's probably my favorite part of the movie is when he starts to realize that something's wrong with her. It's it's really creepy. You know, there's very little dialogue, but she's acting so weird, and they keep flashing back to the looks on his face and he's just it's that. I really like that part.

I meant David so Don to learn that he was horrid to become engaged at Alma. So Don then shows the three elders.

Right, yeah, he he shows them a photo and they say, oh my god, that's that's Eva. We remember Eva.

So yeah, so we have three we have three old muppets at this point, right, because Don's dad's dead.

That's right, that's right, he's the one that jumped off the bridge.

Don's brother's dead because he was banging Alma. Right, we saw his dick at the beginning of the film. Unfortunately, good point. I'm just reiterating that's the folks. You go watch this film, can expect the they want to watch it, that's up to them.

At least scariest part of the.

Movie, Dude, I only jumped at one part, and there was that part like there was another jump. Scary.

It's an unflattering shot for any actor.

I think inappropriate.

They didn't even like slap it around and get it kind of half chubb or something like. No, it was full on, baby dick.

It looks very awkward. Yeah, it must have been an awkward day on set.

Well, I mean, you know, when there's a lot of awkward days and a lot of sets, you know what I mean.

His burden is bush on the first.

The U.

So the next day we lose the second, and we lose our next muppet.

Yes, yes, that's doctor Jeffery.

Yeah yeah, Art Attack huh yeah.

Yeah.

So then and then after that, then the other the two remaining muppets, fred Astaire and the other guy that Ricky and sears right houseman and Freda's Staire right yeah. Yeah. They tell they kind of bring Ricky in on the scene or I'm sorry, don in on the scene at that point, right. Yeah.

They explained to him, just just like in the book, to everything that happened. They in the book, when it's just the two of them left, they're sitting in Edward's house, uh, and they're they're saying, you know, we're we're gonna explain to you what happened and what the history of this is, and we're not proud of it, but we killed this woman and we didn't mean to.

Yep.

Uh So, yeah.

And that's when we see the scene then that they flashes back to when they were dancing. Right, that's right, that's right. It says after the four were uhh, that's not it. After the four win Hammond became drunk. They returned to the houses, the dilapidated house that we see in the future. Actually we skipped over that part and I apologize. So, yeah, it's town fred Istaire, mister Ricky there, right, he goes over to that old mercy and right, what

Yeah, well, he sees Gregory and Finny their roles in the film were a little murky. There's not any real reason for them to be in the film other than to just add another horrific layer to the story. But they're major characters via flashback in the novel. But yeah, Gregory Bait whose character name is is from Gregory Bates and the influenced Aready laying Yeah, and Finny is his is uh, developmentally disabled brother of the little boy. And you see them here and there throughout the film whenever

But oh yeah, yeah, Well, the one thing I did pick up on there was, especially after Fredis Stare gets chased out of there by them, you hear Alma's voice and them going to room, like she's got some sort of mind control spell on them.

That's right, She lasts, and she says, I've got something for you to do, or something to that effect. Yeah, And the the police dispatch the guy on the dispatch phone says tells the sheriff, well, we've got this weird guy in town, Gregory Bate. He was involved in some cult or something back on the West coast, and he's he left, he got out of an asylum or something, and he's, uh, he's here in Milbourn now, and uh, there is that verbal tie to all the cult stuff in the movie.

So two questions. One I just forgot while I was asking you that, and uh, secondly I forgot the second one. So I will get back to you points about bateson and they were both relative debates and whatever it was. It'll circle back here in a second.

Sure.

Yeah, Now, because Bates is an interesting character right within within this kind of he didn't mean he's not he didn't work for the Tabstad, but within this kind of mind controlled Tavistock, and you know, he was very going to do this to society, right like he's entered on that process.

He had some odd concepts and he was a huge influence on already Lane.

Yeah. Yeah, not the comedian, No, the oh so did the millroom mill Burne? Was that any not to mil Grum?

You know, I'm not sure that's a good question.

It may have been, you know, the milgrim experiment.

Yeah, yeah, and that that's that's a good point. It may have been that, uh, Julius that I would have asked Peter Strout if I could have asked him, you know, and sat down with him and said like, sure, wow, man, you really packed the references into this one book.

It's just it's incredible hardcore.

Yeah, this may have been his opus. I don't know about I'm not a hundred on that JJ.

When they were convincing folks to shock, they thought they were getting you know, deadly levels of shock therapy, but really they were just an actor holding the things like they were getting shocked and the person didn't know. The whole thing was an experiment. But they realized that they could get other people to kill people because they were being told to do so.

Oh shit.

Granted on paper, at least allegedly, they weren't really killing folks. There was no actual electric shock being applied. The person who was applying electric shock was the subject of the test to see how much they could get them to do by just telling them to do more, you know everything, even though everything said that person was going to die, and they would remind the person's gonna die, you know, I'm just gonna do it anyway, because there was a

Well, I mean, this is a psychological operation.

That's what I mean. So this guy, That's what I'm saying. So if we're doing baits and stuff, right, why would Milburn not be a nod to mil Groom? Right?

Ah, for sure?

Yeah, yeah, those were the thoughts of the circle back in my brain hole there. That was. I appreciate y'all stand by for that one. But yeah, So the next thing we see after we see the four, the three out of the four dance with the Eva. She hits her head. They put her in the car, they sent her in the pond, but she's alive when she goes in that pond. So that's a very to me, that's very indigicative, a ritual human sacrificing water.

Same and the fact that she's a siren.

There you go again with the sirens. I wasn't even considering that the first time I saw it. With the siren stuff, that's even Yeah, brings it all right into the same same conversation.

And it's like she draws her power from the water because water is a condo for Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. So they call him Gregory bait, which yeah, I was like, wait a second, that's a little too on the nose, Gregory Bates and yeah, yeah, so then we go back to present day, right, and then that's when these fellows start, you know, after they flashed back to yesterdayear remember the time they killed that lady and they're like, wait a second, and that lady is the new lady? What's going on here?

Right? Right? And then you have a long flashback scene with the with the young versions of all the members of the Chatter Society, and we see how they meet Eva like a summertime, some sort of social gathering, and then they she's had a tea or a dance or something, and they all become fascinated with her. But it's it's Ned, who's the best looking of the bunch, and it's Ned that he and Eva are attracted each other. And so they're all out doing this almost kind of like surreal,

And yeah, you know, nineteen twenties escape, like right.

Everybody's wearing those boater hats and but yeah, that's an interesting series of scenes too. But yeah, they they wind up killing Eva accidentally or they think they've killed her as we described, but then they see as they're pushing the car into the pond that that she's still a lot of the back window and is banging on the window and screen.

They put in zero efforts and watching.

Like, oh wait, she's alive, you know, ling and looked at each other and they were like, wow, fuck, I guess she's dead, right.

And that's that's that's supposed to be, Like, look at these horrible, spoiled rich kids. Look at what they did. They had a chance to save somebody's life, and they, which is in the book is is the way they think of themselves all throughout their lives. They think, God, we just killed somebody. We murdered a woman. And then Don tells Sears and Ricky in the book, you know she never was a woman. There was always something wrong with her. What you did was you just inadvertently caught

And killing their sons and.

The audience to see their sons dick because they're falling out of building. Yeah, so that I'm obviously upset about that or anything.

We flashed back to present time. He flapped he what I said?

That guy flashed something all right in that in that scene falling out of the building.

Yeah, his baby asparagus?

What were you saying? The flashback to the present when we see them concluding that Eva and Alma are the same person, right, Yeah.

And then they're like, all right, what are we gonna do? And they decide to drive back to Eva's old boarded up, old scary house.

Yeah, where fred Istaire got Ricky got chased out by the goons, the goons squad, yep.

Yeah. And in the meantime, here Sears. He has left Ricky's house alone to sort of divert attention because he thinks if he can draw the bad guys away from Ricky and Don that he'll sacrifice himself to do this. So he does. Sears dies when Gregory and Finny magically appear in his car. So they kill Sears in his car out in the snow, and then there's just Ricky and Don left and they go to Eva's house and yeah, Don hurts his leg and uh.

Stairs in the old lap and instructure. Huh right, right, and then we see them going, uh, he suddenly has a go ahead, go ahead, Oh yeah, I.

Was just yeah the interior. That is really nice that they convincingly recreate a broken down house from that period. It's that's really nice, and.

Maybe that's where the main thing. Yeah, yeah, we see we suddenly see, after watching all his friends die, that he's something that old Ricky here suddenly gets a conscience about himself.

Huh he does. Yeah, And while he's going to get help for Don, who can't move because of his injured leg, he gets the idea that, well, maybe if we pull the old car up from the pond. And it's not real clear how he thinks this is going to solve everything, but he wants to make it the nineteen twenty nine incident, right, So he tells the sheriff what he and his friends did to the woman back then and that they pushed the car into the pond. So they go and they get the.

Car on the pond routine, and he thinks that the woman is that he thinks the woman is is in the car or not in the car.

He thinks somehow if he can dredge up the body and expose the body that the ghost will leave Don alone. And it's never really clear how that works, but he gets a tow truck and a crane and a wench and everything, and they they dredge the pond and then.

The old pond, the car of the pond magic trick with.

The right Yeah, yeah, it's it is kind of an unexpected that, like, that's not where you expect the plot to go, you know. But Done is waiting in the house and Eva's ghost is right there and she's reaching out for him, and she's like a skeleton hand touching

Yeah.

Well, yeah, it.

Was like every she needed everybody to know what happened to you.

Yeah, and and just by their dredging up the car and exposing the body somehow or other her her visits, right, yeah, yeah, that put you.

Which you know, to a certain extent, I feel like that's kind of these tropes and that that that you know, there's some sort of you know, something attracting keeping these uh these you know, this isn't the first time we've seen some sort of a priestess of a witchcraft type of deal sorcery kind of being that's haunting folks until they can get something back from the person, a heart or a long maybe I'm maybe kidney. I'm not sure they're on an organ donor list in the spirit world

Right, like a pound of flesh.

Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to remember why I saved this from the film, and I just got distracted because, uh was that it We're I'll give you all some closing statements, but that was I thought that was a great recap of events. But I had saved two notes from earlier I said that were really weird and creepy synchronistic events for me. When I was watching this film and reading

Oh Patrician Neil. Yeah, I almost forget. Yeah, she was Ricky's wife.

Yeah, that's right, she was Ricky's wife, Thank you, sir. I knew there was some reason why I saved this.

Yeah. And why can't I think of her name Stella? Yeah?

Yeah, so she was married to the old diddler Roll Doll because them Snosberry's from Willi Wanka turned out to be dicks and not candy.

Yeah, she was. At one point she was Dashal Hammett's girlfriend too.

Oh interesting, Yeah, when Roll Doll was telling folks that the Snosberry's tastes like Snosberry's according to them kids. He would later describe the Snosberry's the later book as dix a over here.

In fact, according to one of Nashal Hammett's daughters, Hammett warned her, uh, don't get married to him. He's not a good person, or something to that effect. So that that's interesting.

Yeah, that is interesting. Well, can't be the purge there. It's my Abin Costello Cohort and I have four conversations we do over there on his show, and he's gonna love this one. So as you can see her. Patricia O'Neil was a member of Phi Beta Pi, the sorority girls up and around that Idaho for murder. We're all Phi Beta Pie. Interesting. Interesting, and the man, the male, the male victim was Sigma Chai. And in the film we hear them singing this song, Sweetheart of Sigma Chai.

Excellent. Yes, that's what we're singing it down down below eas window. Yeah.

Yeah. The Snisberry like Snilesberry's.

Yeah.

According to these guys and even bunch of Dix, if you asked me to believe this is somehow just weird circumstances.

I would not put that pass for roll Doll at all. He was a very peculiar person.

I'm just saying, like, it's just weird. It just weird to me that in the future past all of these things. Again, I don't want to get into comments of questions of time and concept of time, but it is weird to me how some of these things work, that like you can have such you know, elements where an actress as a member of the same sorority as these victims, and they're singing a song about the other victim and the

Man?

Gil Bill Sarns went off in my brain hole, is what I'm saying.

I think all of this stuff is absolutely conscious. I mean it just doesn't you know.

Yeah, Well, I'm what I'm saying about time and magic. It's like and again, I want to this is a conversation for a different day. But I think part of this and Peter Lavenda, the OTO member, brings us up in his book relative to some of the son the same matters, right, talking about time and centers for forces and whatnot, and how you can how these magicians impact

Yeah, yeah, And these people they do, they're very serious about what they do. A lot of them, well, this this stuff is silly that they're into, but it's but they take it very very seriously.

Right, I say that all the time. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, when when, for examplehen people try to try suggest to me that the Church of Satan and Antonavay was just a carnival barker and it was all a bit. It is all a gambit, and I'm like, all right, dude, well that's hilarious, but I don't buy it.

Yeah, and that's exactly what they want people to think. It's all just a joke.

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, we're we're just we're just dignostic. We just like the Lares Devils and weird Ship.

The Larvest Devils. You know what it is to This is something that I always bring up when I cover these type of topics, is if they weren't seeing results, why would they keep doing it. They've been doing it and obviously they're getting some kind of results, so you don't have to believe in it, but they do. And obviously it's working for them, or they wouldn't do the shit that they're doing.

Oh yeah. And when I say this nonlinear aspect of time where ideas come from, especially for writers, and again suggested by Peter Leavenda, where I even came up but started going on this path. Not just his ideas, but he's the one who sent me on this path. I

Yeah, no, absolutely, oh yeah, you.

Get in, Julie, get something I was just for, at least for the advocation of the folks of the interwebs who have missed my you know, routine and you know, unsolicited tirades on time. Then you know there's part of it right there. I appreciate both your else on the night speaking of time, Julia and John both, and for blowing up my brain whole a number of times, which thanks I just got. I just started getting in that cycle for a moment. There are things you suggested to me.

Yeah, yes, yes, great to meet you, John, I always love.

Go ahead, thank you.

No, that's all I had JJ.

Go ahead. I'll make sure I connect y'all with the emails, and I'll put your email Julia in the show notes for folks to reach out to you, especially maze Iss, who I again love to hear more thoughts there, ma'am. That's great stuff. I appreciate the input and chat for all the folks in the web as well, for sure. And if I can offer y'all, I appre appreciate y'all's review and again all the ideas we've shared your night's great stuff. I like to offer y'all both a closing statement, ma'am,

I thought this movie was really awesome. John obviously reads the book every October. It sounds like it's just a part of his Halloween ritual thing that he does. I have a similar one. I watch American Horror Story season one in three every October, just something I like to do. I think there's a lot of conspiracy stuff within American horror story and so yeah, it's just nice meeting people who know what's up and having a good conversation. JJ,

That's awesome. No, thank you, ma'amon. I definitely one thing I was thinking, and we'll turn over to John for an answer, but i'd like to get both y'all back on to discuss Program to Kill after John gets a chance to read it.

Absolutely, I'm down for that anytime.

What do you say, Johnny Gunny closing statements, We welcome and I'm sure you're welcome back anytime to talking to these things. But you know, I would love to get your input on the Program to Kill once you get a chance to read that. And I don't knock over my micro front with the karate chop.

Yeah, I look forward to that. Yeah, I'm gonna start reading it tomorrow. So yeah, and and thank you guys. And uh, I'm just uh, I'm still working on the book. I don't know when that's gonna come out, but it's it's gonna be a big one and it's uh, it's taken me a long time because I'm doing all the editing and all the drafts myself. So I'm just working on it bit by bit, but it'll it'll be out eventually.

It's good to have a better uh probably you you know, you can stand behind rather than one that's timely, you know.

What I mean, right, I want to I want to take some care of it. So so.

Passion Project.

Yeah, that's great stuff. And I'll, like I said, I'll have all your all folks in the interwebs can find Julia's stuff, John stuff and the links and their show in the show notes. And uh, I don't have any closing statements myself other than I greatly appreciate your all time and conversation well at the time of the and shadow of the folks of the interwebs. And uh in

I would believe that one hundred. I think McMartin Presidio. I mean they're just uh, you know, drops in the bucket. Yeah, if you if you can imagine. And just as a closing thought, this is a closing thought anyone who has read Program to Kill Her or they're familiar with McMartin preschool scandal or the Presidio daycare scandal. I just recently saw something saying that the movie with Robin Williams Missus Doubtfire, that character, Missus Doubtfire is based on the preschool teacher

Look it down. I'm gonna look at as we get.

Off of here, in fact, but yeah, that's just for.

Sure, no, thank you. And from Presidio to West Point at that same time in the eighties there was more than one nddling scandal. So that's from coast to coast. Just that's my point. We were so as part of the propaganda and magic show. We're sold these one off incidents and say everyone, look at this incident. This incident didn't occur anywhere else. It only happened here at the presidio, within the confines of the Persida and only involved Michael Keino.

Yeah nope.

So folks want to check out more of that uh business, please check out Operation GC thursdays and uh. On that note, and if he yelled on anything else, I thank you all both for your time and folks of the interwebs.

Thanks a lot, enjoyed it.

Thank you

O.