Ep. 705 Tokenizing RWAs Onchain & Solana's Role in it with Jupiter Exchange

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Crypto101 podcast, presented by Gemini. [SPEAKER_01]: Your bridge to the future of money. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody, welcome back all of you. [SPEAKER_01]: Good, wonderful citizens of crimp nation. [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you're having a fantastic morning, noon, or night, wherever you are. [SPEAKER_01]: In the world, you are certainly in the right place, because today I've got an incredible guest, president of Jupiter, Shao Shao Jew.

[SPEAKER_01]: Shao Shao, thank you for joining us here at the Crypto 101 podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: And how are you doing today? [SPEAKER_00]: I'm great, pleasure to be here. [SPEAKER_00]: Look forward to the conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm greatly looking forward to it. [SPEAKER_01]: Jupiter is something that I've used plenty. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just a seamless experience. [SPEAKER_01]: I like to connect it to the Phantom Wallet. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of great stuff going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so for our listeners, [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that you guys are using Jupiter to some extent or have at least looked into it because this thing is awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: It helps you get the best pricing across all of your salana trades and so much more.

[SPEAKER_01]: But before we dive too much deeper into Jupiter and all the amazing things that you guys are working on across the entire crypto sphere, let's get you acquainted a little bit with our audience. [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us a little bit about yourself, Shao Shao, how you kind of got into crypto, what [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, of course.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I've been in this role, I think, over the last one or two months or relatively new, but the journey to integrated and to together has been a long way coming. [SPEAKER_00]: There has been sort of a blend of high-level strategy as well as creative performance. [SPEAKER_00]: I would say I tried to always bridge different worlds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so over the last five years, I was at KKR, one of the leading [SPEAKER_00]: private investment firms in the world with about seven hundred billion dollars assets under management. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the pioneers of the private equity space, I've been leading the global digital asset strategy while at KKR as well as working in the iconic TMT private equity team, working on some landmark deals, all like billion dollar. [SPEAKER_00]: revenue companies.

[SPEAKER_00]: And before that, I worked for about a close to a decade at the Boston Consulting Group, one of the leading management consulting companies, essentially advising Fortune 500 companies on company strategy and challenging topics. [SPEAKER_00]: But also on blockchain, because back in 2016, I led some of the first blockchain projects that basically did at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so at the pleasure to, at a time, work together with the beers, the leading diamond producer in the world, on actually building up a blockchain-based asset tracking platform for natural diamonds, right, to prove into end-to-end provenance.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was at a time when the theorem wasn't even [SPEAKER_00]: properly operational and so we had to actually build a promotion version a private blockchain at at the time which they apparently still ended today used to track their natural diamonds which which I think was one probably one of the first use cases of blockchain and through that I sort of fell down the crypto rabbit hole.

[SPEAKER_00]: Author majority of my work was focused on essentially building out new digital companies or scaling very large companies while at BCG in KKR. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, in my sort of personal side of always like state very much involved in the crypto side been an engine investor into into many projects and funds and yeah, so that that's how I got into into sort of the blockchain space.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe like just one note also in a previous life, I was actually a professional concert pianist, so wow, be on stage, I played for George Bush Sr. and Gorbachev for the I think 25th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, what I was a teenager.

[SPEAKER_00]: and played around the world on stages, et cetera. [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm used to kind of switch context and challenge oneself every couple years into something completely different. [SPEAKER_00]: And then, oh, yeah, I think it's a very big, very big jump as well from KKR.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, one of the most prestigious sort of blue chip financial institutions on Wall Street To kind of Jupiter, which you know, I essentially joined in in one world to build out as the as the leader in non-chain finance And so we can talk a little bit more about that [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot to talk about with tokenization and RWA's or real world assets. [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to be the flavor of this year.

[SPEAKER_01]: Certainly, it was also quite big last year, but I think what I see in terms of just the institutional adoption, the conversations going on at Davos this past week, everybody wants [SPEAKER_01]: in tokenization. [SPEAKER_01]: I even saw Larry Finksay. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was just this morning or yesterday that we, you know, it's critical to get tokenization. [SPEAKER_01]: And he, he kind of did a lude to getting it done all on one block chain, which I thought was interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not sure if I agree with that. [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: Potential for for many blockchains proliferate and have interconnectivity, but that might be a different discussion, but wow, so KKR, you know, you had this incredible, you know, Wall Street gig, you know, you could have retired there and worked this, you know, really, you know, predictable lifestyle, but you said, you know what?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go, and I'm going to jump feet first into the unknown, and I think that's really cool. [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to know a little bit about, I mean, there must have been some philosophical drive.

[SPEAKER_01]: There must have been some sort of spiritual connection to crypto in the future that I'd like you to kind of outline for our guests, because I think when they see these, you know, big Wall Street moves come into this, you know, the frontier of finance, it inspires them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, look, I think on a philosophical level, I was fascinated about this, like, almost like, parallel stagger architecture onto, onto which, like, financial activities can be built, which empowers [SPEAKER_00]: people and users close to kind of gatekeepers, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, when I was a KKR, you know, I had the privilege of leading the digital asset task force.

[SPEAKER_00]: So so we invested out of KKR's balance sheet into some of the leading crypto VCs at the time. [SPEAKER_00]: So I had the pleasure of, you know, meeting most of the founders of the crypto VCs space.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think [SPEAKER_00]: five, six years ago, and we ended up investing in the likes of Dragonfly, Powerify, BitCraft, Joe Lubins, Founded Ethereal Ventures, so we were like, large LPs in all of these funds, very close strategic partners, we shared deal flow, and obviously, you know, expertise was very important from the early stage space.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then we also ended up kind of investing into more institutional [SPEAKER_00]: So, we let SKKR let essentially the last round, you know, and we did a lot of work there. [SPEAKER_00]: But over time, it was also clear that, you know, we deployed probably nine figures into the space, which was tiny for KKKR's, you know, proportions, but relevant for the crypto space. [SPEAKER_00]: But he never justifies more than a small part of actually my time.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, when you are essentially in a business like KKKR, you always have your core investments, [SPEAKER_00]: or try to put full new companies or investments, and whether those companies grow 3% or 5% matters always more than whether you get like a 5x or an 8x on a maximum in crypto.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, to size matter, matter a lot more, and of course, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: you're just talking about very different profiles in terms of growth as well as volatility, right, in private. [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, more mature industries, you want to have productivity, right, because you have to underwrite investment thesis.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to project our financial cash flows for the next five years and you're trying to be quite close, right, in your predictions, which is basing impossible in crypto because innovation still happens so fast at the fundamental stages, both

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, technically as well as from a regulatory perspective, it's very difficult to predict how fast or how big new markets can literally spun up right prediction markets didn't exist, you know, 12 months ago and you know, all the rage not right. [SPEAKER_00]: And so. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that was sort of one part of the realization.

[SPEAKER_00]: The second part is just by looking much more deeply into the evolution of the digital asset space, also became clear that I would say two main things have really changed or inflicted in the last 12 to 24 months, which was not possible before. [SPEAKER_00]: The one is just as you alluded to, right? [SPEAKER_00]: The line between on-chain and traditional finance, [SPEAKER_00]: has really been blurring in the last two years, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Bitcoin really emerging as a national corporate trash re-asset, stablecoins, not just a crypto settlement currency anymore, but increasingly a payment a global payment and remittance rail, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Also used and considered by banks and legacy and web two players. [SPEAKER_00]: On chain venues such as Jupiter or hyperliquid, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, rapidly taking share from centralized exchanges, you can see that in the market share numbers, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, literally going growing from 0% market share, about two, three years ago now to like close to 20% right of the global spot or per volumes, which is, which is very significant. [SPEAKER_00]: And then new essentially on-chain primitives like, [SPEAKER_00]: tokenization tokenize assets or a prediction mark is literally popping up and reshaping how capital markets or information markets can function.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the second observation is just the underlying cryptotechnologies very clearly growing up and we are basically, I think, in this fundamental shift, [SPEAKER_00]: where the value creation in the sector really is shifting from the infrastructure level to the application layer. [SPEAKER_00]: And you can really see that block space used to be difficult to come by, in matter where you actually build.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now I would say with the proliferation of layer one and two block chains, those block spaces is becoming increasingly commoditized. [SPEAKER_00]: They simply work. [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to think about them anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: trading up, it just makes a lot of sense to do in on Solana or base maybe, right? [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're trying to, you know, a little bit slower moving assets, if you're almost, it's your place, you don't have to think too much about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're increasing the cost and the speed really starts to work, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And because of that, I think you really see in this new way of, [SPEAKER_00]: on chain applications, generating significant revenues and user adoption, and then that basically informed my thesis, whether you invest your capital or time in the differentiation and the modes of value creation through businesses in crypto is shifting more and more towards

[SPEAKER_00]: distribution brand user experience as opposed to, you know, how scalable is the blockchain or fastest data or how cheap it is, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think all of this, I think culminating in this core belief of mine that [SPEAKER_00]: what we know at Jupyter called onchain finance, not web3, not just crypto, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: There needs to be something new, not even defy, but really like onchain finance, it's a fundamentally better way to do finance because, you know, stratified is huge, of course, and in kind of works, but it's still opaque, inefficient, and built essentially on trusting gatekeepers, like banks, like asset managers, like KKR, [SPEAKER_00]: but really building on chain fully on chain and put the rails, which was not possible three years ago, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But now it is, really empowers, right? [SPEAKER_00]: At scale, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Open transparent rails, globally accessible from day one, you can bank the undanked, you know, across the globe without having to many barriers, self-castidies, self-sub�antia, permissionless and and trustless, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And I think these [SPEAKER_00]: of what a financial new architect should look like.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the world simply doesn't know this yet, so I think the big part of what I'm going to do at Jupiter and with the team is to literally prove and communicate to the world that Anjin Finance is a better for everyday people, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's different ways to go about it. [SPEAKER_00]: So all in all, I think why make that shift? [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be on the front line of this fundamental shift and not just watching it from the old world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, no, Sha Sha that that makes a ton of sense and it's really good to kind of get that perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I want to move over towards the conversation around Solana, because, of course, Jupiter chose to launch its home base on Solana, not on Ethereum, not on Ethereum L2, not on Bitcoin. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so we kind of... [SPEAKER_01]: you know what was Jupiter's decision-making process?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you came in a couple months back and Jupiter's been around for much, much longer, but I'm sure you understand, you know, sort of what the founders have discovered and loved in Solana. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, look, at the time there were like many different L1s and L2s, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even until today, I think the Solana ecosystem, even today, is still in a high-per-growth phase.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not about, you know, just testing infrastructure anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: It's about true application level, you know, adoption and dominance. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I think it's just beats volume to the fact that, um, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Solana is probably best thought of us as a high frequency global financial coordination layer, right, because of its sub-second finality and, you know, really negligible fees, but by now it is the only chain where you can build

[SPEAKER_00]: something like Jupiter write a decentralized trading van your exchange that that truly rivals the speed and feel and low cost of a centralized exchange like like Binance or or you New York Stock Exchange, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect for, you know, you know, transaction, height, output, sort of active finance. [SPEAKER_00]: So things like [SPEAKER_00]: you know, spot trading, perpetuals, the river to trading, hydrolocity, stablecoin payments, and and composable defy, defy loops where you need to move, you know, capital across different protocols in a single transaction, et cetera, which I think that is just by now, I think, proven out, right, with that, that's a laner, it's best position.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, where most of the on-chain, [SPEAKER_00]: high velocity volumes are happening today. [SPEAKER_00]: And then obviously Ethereum on the other hand side, you know, has a different philosophy with different technical specs, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It's chosen more modular path, you know, pushing users more towards, you know, the core Ethereum, as well as various layer 2s, which is great for decentralization.

[SPEAKER_00]: But [SPEAKER_00]: can create a more fragmented user experience, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And whereas Solana stuck to a more monolithic unified approach, making it simply easier to kind of aggregate user experience and liquidity, which is very important, right, if you want to have like we almost like what to like experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I mean, there's definitely a place for Ethereum, right, to really, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: good friends with Jo Luvina admire what Vitalik and they have built really this global settlement layer for high value slow moving assets so it's kind of the the chain for TV all if you want and then Solana is really becoming this global execution layer for for the world's daily financial activity on chain and

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that sort of on the on the sort of infrastructure side of things, but but ultimately I think the user ultimately in the end the non crypto native user should almost not care, right? [SPEAKER_00]: on which chain certain applications are built, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It should not matter and I think this job of the applications of the new sort of on-chain protocols and super apps like Jupyter to kind of really build out a user experience to abstract away these kind of differences.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for [SPEAKER_00]: you know we are by far the largest trading venue by by volume and user count on on on on on Solana but we've been also building out the the TV outside of of the business as well which is more you know almost like B2B slower moving more sticky capital right money mark on chain money market type of products like Jupiter land um which in equally works right technically on on Solana and so ultimately I think the more variation the more competition

[SPEAKER_00]: There is with great products, right, that highlight different parts of the technical stack. [SPEAKER_00]: The better it is for the user, ultimately, they can choose from great products and great experiences. [SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, I think if we all have this mission around launching finance, you should all like, you know, go.

[SPEAKER_00]: fight together, be allies, grow the market, grow the pie, and show to users that doing things on chains simply can be better, and you shouldn't have to trust centralized gatekeepers. [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I completely agree with that ethos. [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you all just launched a new stable coin, relatively new stable coin, JupeUSD.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we want to understand a little bit behind why you created the stable coin and what makes it different from others. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think, first of all, like, you know, stablecoin, everyone talks about saving everyone and uses stablecoins. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think just to put it into some numbers, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Why this matters, I'm sure most people know this, but like, today we have roughly 300 billion of total stablecoin supplies in the world, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: They generate around 30 trillion in, you know, transaction volume per year.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but then what that supply actually translates into is about, I think, north of 10 billion dollars of net profits for the key, same amount of issuers, which is tether and circle, which if you do the math is essentially between three and four percent of the total supply, right, which is the same as the underlying [SPEAKER_00]: have by issuing the stablecoins and holding the the T-underline T-builds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you really think long and hard about this in the target state, you shouldn't have to just keep all of this to the stablecoin issuers. [SPEAKER_00]: And this is I think the fundamental [SPEAKER_00]: challenge that we set ourselves, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That we wanted to kind of like create something where the issuers should not keep all of the interest from the assets back in these coins. [SPEAKER_00]: But with dubiosd, we're essentially utilizing tokenized BlackRock T-Builds, you know, throughout partnership with Athena. [SPEAKER_00]: to flow that yield back essentially to users throughout our ecosystem of products, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so we want to combine institutional great safety with Solana's high-speed rails and we want to kind of like, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: create this like new generation of on chain first stable coins to evolve from simple trading tools into a global financial coordination layer that should be objectively superior and more rewarding than then traditional back to pauses or even like traditional stable coins.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean stable coins have absolutely been [SPEAKER_01]: probably the talk of the town, I guess you could say in DC and in the broader crypto market because of the genius act that just passed here in the States. [SPEAKER_01]: So that was really big and our secretary of the Treasury Scott Besson said that he thinks

[SPEAKER_01]: crypto stable coins can grow from like you said around 300 billion dollars today in market cap to oh you know to 10x to over three trillion dollars over the course of i think the president's term and so that would be big and i'm sure jupy usd would get a little share of that but it seems like there's a big um or a sizable share not a little share um but it seems like there's a lot a lot of conversation right now specifically with the clarity act around this yield component

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, the coin-based side of the camp is now saying we don't want this bill to happen because the banks are trying to block the yield getting to the end user, but the banks are hogging all the yield. [SPEAKER_01]: And you've been on the other side of Wall Street where you want the yield and you want the carry and all that kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how does this all kind of come to bear [SPEAKER_01]: in regards to, um, you know, are you guys going to keep Jupiter yielding to the end user, um, does it matter what happens with the Clarity Act or you guys focused on just other jurisdictions? [SPEAKER_01]: How do you kind of pair this? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the, um, you know, traditional [SPEAKER_00]: They're sort of in the back end, right? [SPEAKER_00]: They have the manners of reserves.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a midredeem facility, but they traditionally don't actually own the ecosystem or build all the ecosystem or the distribution layer for these statements. [SPEAKER_00]: That's why circles partnership with Coinbase has been the probably most important partnership in circles history, which you can also see in the financials. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is like one of the advantages, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like by essentially building and improving and building all this like on-chain super app that Jupiter is today. [SPEAKER_00]: And having essentially a native on-chain native stable coin, [SPEAKER_00]: snapping fully into our product suite and essentially being able to create value back to the ecosystem and the users.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that is very difficult to replicate for pure stablecoin issuers, whether it's like a CEO or sort of newer ones, and it's also difficult to replicate for pure exchanges. [SPEAKER_00]: We want to build that synergistic flywheel to the benefit [SPEAKER_00]: of the ecosystem, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And so, as I mentioned, like we strategic launch to BST to solve this major flaw in the current stable coin. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, market structure, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: While Dian's like circle and tether are very effective, you know, it's very convenient. [SPEAKER_00]: There's huge network effects. [SPEAKER_00]: The you generated from the treasury builds backing them flows entirely to the issuers, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Not to the distribution partners, not to the users ultimately. [SPEAKER_00]: We want that value, right, to flow back to our users. [SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily as yield generating stablecoins, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a lot of things that we can innovate [SPEAKER_00]: on to kind of like build that value into our ecosystem. [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we have the design dependency today to drive kind of a flywheel of usage within our ecosystem. [SPEAKER_00]: So users for who deposit into the to put a land protocol, which is kind of our [SPEAKER_00]: are they like, you know, blend borrow permissionless protocol that we've built on Solana into our super app.

[SPEAKER_00]: So users who deposit jupiost, you can very easily swap your USDC or USDT on our app, right, directly into jupiost, and if you then deposit the jupiost into the jupiolent interface, you'll receive additional rewards, including a significant portion of the yield generated [SPEAKER_00]: Which is structurally an advantage, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Like on Jupiter land you have all kinds of different sabercoins, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can borrow against them, you can lend them out to get additional yield, but most of the sabercoins offer that the yield that that goes into the true blend protocol comes simply from, you know, incentives or the difference between the land and borrow.

[SPEAKER_00]: rates essentially on it's a dynamic market right it's it's set sort of automatically at any time whereas we kind of add a third layer of essentially yield to towards the basically deposited stable coins into our jubilant if it's denominated in jubilant which is the underlying t-billion which should be between three and four percent today and by collateralized by black rock

[SPEAKER_00]: And so structurally we should be able to give users to deposit to PSD into to blend higher yield. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a second, you know, second source, I would say type of very exciting things that we want to experiment on and do to drive more usage and benefits to users is, for example, today, if you hold your jubilee as the in the jubilee and pull, [SPEAKER_00]: you generate yield.

[SPEAKER_00]: If it was a centralized exchange or any type of CIFI world, you would have to if you want to use your deposit that you earn yield on into any sort of trading activity. [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say limit order, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You want to call, put up. [SPEAKER_00]: low limit order on salana, right in case the price drops, you don't know when it gets triggered, it might be triggered in two days, but it might be triggered in six weeks, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If you have your capital essentially in the limit order, or let's say a prediction market [SPEAKER_00]: You don't traditionally get any yield on that, while it's sitting there. [SPEAKER_00]: We want to make that possible. [SPEAKER_00]: If it's denouncing it in JPC, we can make that basically step out immediately. [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't even have to take the underlying JPC out of the JPC, you can just directly deposit a deposit token into the limit order and through that way,

[SPEAKER_00]: for whatever time you are essentially waiting for the limit order to get trigger, you actually continue to earn yield on your stablecoin, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And these are the type of defy-composable, you know, I would say user experience innovations that we're very excited about because ultimately it's better for the users, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no reason why this shouldn't work.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's only works because you're not on-chain trading when you're like like Jupiter. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's it's awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's so many exciting things going on. [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to keep up.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if we kind of shift gears from stable coins to a little bit of the RWA and on chain initiatives, I know for instance, super state, you know, some of the, the, um, [SPEAKER_01]: products that they offer are tradable through Jupiter exchange and these are like tokenized galaxy stock or tokenized T-bills and all that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: What's kind of your guy's mission around tokenized equities and real world assets and what's on the product roadmap?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think there's a huge future addressable market that we're very excited about, you know, as the on-chain super app, I need to be there. [SPEAKER_00]: We welcome any sort of innovation on the supply side, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So tokenization of any kind of financial asset that makes it, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: tradable, you know, you can do kind of financialization on top of the tokenized asset.

[SPEAKER_00]: As long as it's on Solana, I think it's automatically, you know, Jupiter becomes one of the main distribution and trading venues. [SPEAKER_00]: We welcome any kind of innovation and additional supply that comes here. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's kind of a marketplace, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, users and demand will decide, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And they will look different parameters around, around redemption, price, cost, different things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But as we welcome any kind of tokenized assets, I think a lot of innovation now is going on and has to go on on the tokenized stocks side of things. [SPEAKER_00]: I think you know a lot of extox, you know tokenized equity is already reasonable. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're a major share of the trading volume that actually happens on on Solana around tokenized stocks already.

[SPEAKER_00]: but it's still minuscule compared to actual stock trading volumes on the primary liquidity venues and the brokers that essentially offer them. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think a lot still has to happen on the innovation side. [SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that will be solved in 2020-2006, I think it's a multi-year journey, [SPEAKER_00]: innovation cycle where it's not just about tokenizing existing assets that have the primary liquidity venue of chain, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you are stocks today, but I think what's much more exciting over time is fully moving the capital formation process on chain end to end, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Where you can almost [SPEAKER_00]: up to not just go IPO, and then later on, and tokenization of the starts, but fully up and script, and really like go through the whole underwriting, the capital formation, the going public process, fully going on to on-chain. [SPEAKER_00]: processes and venues.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that way, I think, then, problems that we still today are grappling with around, you know, how do you represent dividend rights, right, in these kind of tokenist dogs, or voting rights, right, and sort of governance rights, which [SPEAKER_00]: Basically it's kind of leaves you with the derivative of just the price right that is today traded I think more and more of those will be solved over time, but I think it's just truly to move

[SPEAKER_00]: like significant volumes fully on chain, you have to really almost flip the script and think into end, right, couple of formation. [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's something that we're, I think, quite excited about. [SPEAKER_00]: Alongside, I think, yeah, stocks. [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, it's one of the things that a lot of people have spent a lot of time on. [SPEAKER_00]: But also, I think credit is definitely something that there is a lot of movement on the institutional side.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm having conversations with, you know, seeing it very senior people at very large track fi institutions. [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of effort and innovation on going to kind of tokenize already, you know, also private credits, moving them on chain. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think once they are on chain, I think there's like a series of things that you also have to, you know, solve through around, you know,

[SPEAKER_00]: KYC permission requirements or redemption requirements, you know, by lowering sort of the threshold for investment thresholds and you ideally also want to have different redemption sort of periods, but I think these are some of the operational. [SPEAKER_00]: processes that can be solved. [SPEAKER_00]: We can find ways around that. [SPEAKER_00]: So I probably see credit almost like a little bit closer to where it could be.

[SPEAKER_00]: Stocks, as I mentioned, I think there's like a long journey that we have to go through before on chain can be [SPEAKER_00]: properly treated as the primary liquidity venue and then yeah and then over time I think we much harder around stuff that is not as unified like real estate It will take much longer to kind of find proper solutions to to kind of really do this at that scale But overall it's very clear, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Stabilcoins, it's just tokenized dollars and fiat currencies tokenized commodities, you know, should be should be is already happening [SPEAKER_00]: And then some of these other asset classes very clear that more and more of that will come in chain. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're the essentially distribution layer on chain, we welcome all kinds of innovation. [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome, so, you know, that makes perfect sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Josh, I'm curious, just looking ahead for Jupiter specifically in 2026, what's exciting you the most on the product roadmap? [SPEAKER_01]: And where do you think things are going to land here for Jupiter? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think to be very clear, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Tubular is relentless at shipping new products. [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody ships like Tubular is kind of a proverb in the Solama ecosystem that I think is interesting to know.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just to illustrate that also like from history to presence and then we can talk about the future which is like 80 months ago, [SPEAKER_00]: Jupiter was simply a web-only dex aggregator on Solana. [SPEAKER_00]: It was a larger dex aggregator, but it was only web, and only Solana.

[SPEAKER_00]: It fulfilled a very critical function by stitching together the fragmented liquidity across the hundreds of dexes, but it really made Solana very usable, routing to the best place at any given time, best execution, best price, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_00]: today we're way more than this right today Jupiter is the largest online application platform on Solana by users by trading volume and by TVL you can you can basically say we are the largest online super app itself I would like to sort of think about Jupiter [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and good analogy is Robin Hood, but fully on and probably pre-COVID Robin Hood, because you kind of have a very loyal retail user base, right, that love the product and keep using it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And assets that are being traded are essentially long-tailed assets, meme stocks. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: That was, that was it came to fame. [SPEAKER_00]: And that was also how we start in most [SPEAKER_00]: But over time, we've really managed to build a whole flywheel around that initial use case, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So, today we're the largest, you know, we have the most diversified on-chain business with 12 different revenue generating products and business lines and really growing, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Creating a flywheel for users, liquidity providers, token holders and partners, [SPEAKER_00]: you know, close to, you know, actually more than $1 trillion of annual trading volume across spot in Perps last year, you know, hundreds of millions of fees to our liquidity providers, hundreds of millions of net revenues, and that which is also going going into buying back the token,

[SPEAKER_00]: For example, we also build one of the largest ecosystem hubs on Solana with hundreds of partner integrations generating hundreds of millions of revenues for partners that are integrated with Jupiter and making it's just super easy to integrate for developers to integrate into the Jupiter APIs. [SPEAKER_00]: largest predicts in Solana, a larger stecks aggregator. [SPEAKER_00]: We're growing very quickly our lending of borrowing protocol to blend as mentioned.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have our own stablecoin. [SPEAKER_00]: We're growing out a prediction mark that's venue as well, so I'm very exciting. [SPEAKER_00]: No offense coming as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then what many people also probably don't know, we are like one of the largest, now also one of the largest validators on Solana, because we realize [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it was just important to not just build out the user experience, but also really control the execution environment ultimately on that. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's really a full stack team, a full stack company, not just on the front end player, but really down to the RPC execution as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: One to simply have the elements together to offer the best possible experience to [SPEAKER_00]: what if I think about the growth areas and this will apply to 26 and some of those potentially also beyond. [SPEAKER_00]: I see like a couple of very exciting growth areas which I think I and our team are especially sort of excited about and there will be a lot more news coming out or keep announcing new things so there's some alpha in there but I won't reveal too much.

[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing like [SPEAKER_00]: If you think about, how can you actually ten eggs something that already generates a lot share of whatever happens in Salana today, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So just what my market sizing perspective strategy perspective, you have to think about different vectors where the future growth can come from.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if I think about that, right, we today, we, most of our users are desktop experience, right, a lot of developers are integrated through our APIs, but the one vector we believe is very important to actually onboard the next 10x, right, of users that may not be advanced, sophisticated trenches or salana warriors or traders, right, we call them, let's call them normies, right, I'm adopting the crypto, yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Here, how do we adopt sort of really unbored nomads?

[SPEAKER_00]: It has to be by the mobile app, right? [SPEAKER_00]: And so the mobile app has the delivery mechanism for the masses and really creating synergies across existing product flywheel. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, we have a lot of, I believe we're making a lot of progress on our mobile app already. [SPEAKER_00]: It should be one of the best experiences on Salana.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, the cheapest for sure for any of your swapping activities and also the fastest compared to the peers, but we're just at the beginning, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We're, we're, we're proving that out, but just by bringing some of some of the things that we already have on desktop, like, perp trading, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We are the largest perp trading venue. [SPEAKER_00]: It's today not app native, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so some of these things, I think, our prediction markets, we, I think, we can get a lot better. [SPEAKER_00]: But these are the type of things I think just making it as simple and as comprehensive as possible for someone to come into the app. [SPEAKER_00]: And just immediately like making sense of it and being able to kind of move part of their financial life onto the app. [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is a 10x growth opportunity for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the second one is onboarding user groups, not via just mobile but via strategic partnership integrations. [SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of more the institutional side if you want. [SPEAKER_00]: I think we can do a lot more. [SPEAKER_00]: We've done incredible announcements of just a couple months, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We integrated with Coinbase, with Robin Hood, with Anchorage, as well as Uniswap, even.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're all integrated with [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of offer the best of Solana assets and and worlds to their users. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is a very very scalable way also for us to kind of like really onboard, you know, other ecosystem, you know, encrypto, but also like players outside of crypto itself, right, to kind of like offer all the beauty and variety of Solana products.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the third one is just further building [SPEAKER_00]: What has happened just in the last couple of weeks is, for example, Jupiter's Dean will bring back value to our users. [SPEAKER_00]: But also prediction markets, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We launched the beta with CalShe, you know, there's like some big announcement and future. [SPEAKER_00]: Also coming one to add more simply more variety and more depth to the prediction markets that are today already on on Jupiter.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, fourthly, I would say, if you think about, [SPEAKER_00]: Just you doing a lot of trading already today on Salana, you make money, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You kind of generate yield etc. [SPEAKER_00]: But what do you do with it ultimately, right? [SPEAKER_00]: So building some bridges towards real world utility and real world value. [SPEAKER_00]: We believe we'll be also the next step, which is very important.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll have some exciting announcement coming around the around the payment stack as well which we call Jupyter Global We want to offer better on ramp experiences there There will be a payment card coming out Unified Jupyter IDs across across all of our use cases and then very exciting What we are working on is like also just QR payment

[SPEAKER_00]: and which will be a big, I think, unlock, especially in emerging markets where you don't want to necessarily go through the costs of a credit card network and even for unbanked merchants or small merchants or users in emerging markets, a lot of them are actually transacting today with your payments and we simply want to make [SPEAKER_00]: your own chain asset balances, you know, usable, also in those areas.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in Vietnam buying your noodles, but just scanning a QR code by the distributor app and being able to pay from your own chain balances, I think will be extremely powerful to bring more utility to our users. [SPEAKER_00]: And then, yeah, finally, I think if you think about the 10x growth [SPEAKER_00]: only chain execution, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll have some announcements coming there as well, because as we spoke before, ultimately on the question with here in Morecelano, ultimately for crypto people are very tribal. [SPEAKER_00]: We care a lot about on which chains transactions haven't or don't happen, but ultimately for the web two user, you know, if you want them to kind of use crypto applications or on chain finance applications, they don't give up.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, think about on which chain it is and so we do want to kind of like try to solve and abstract away as much of those kind of constraints as possible to kind of just offer the best of on chain markets and towards those users regardless of the chain. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it sounds like there's no shortage of things to do here for you in 2026. [SPEAKER_01]: You guys are expanding, growing your user base is growing the amount of touch points with your customers.

[SPEAKER_01]: And overall, becoming just a great steward of the ecosystem by running back [SPEAKER_01]: validators, investing in builders, and so it's really encouraging to hear from you all the amazing things going on at Jupiter. [SPEAKER_01]: And so look, Chao Chao, we greatly appreciate all the detail that you've been able to share with us here today on the crypto 101 podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: Last question is just, in terms of where folks can go to download the app, where can people stay in touch on social media or what websites can we link in the show notes? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_00]: I think the closing statement is just use Jupyter, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It's the best way to kind of test out, give us feedback. [SPEAKER_00]: It's available.

[SPEAKER_00]: The mobile app, I would say, is probably the best, you know, if you are not already a Jupyter user. [SPEAKER_00]: It's in Android, as well as Apple Store, it's the best Solana wallet out there. [SPEAKER_00]: You can do a lot of the stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: usual pains that you have around it, everything should be possible with QR codes, you can log in with your Google or Apple ID, you don't have to necessarily create a seed phrase.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, yeah, from app download to kind of having stable coins in your wallet should take less than 10 seconds. [SPEAKER_00]: I do this a lot on boarding, you know, friends and leaders in [SPEAKER_00]: that the surprise in the eyes, right, that something like that is possible fully on chain. [SPEAKER_00]: And you shouldn't even care about whether it's on chain or not, just the speed and the and the elegance of the UX should speak for itself.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's still a lot to sort of work on. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and obviously follow our X account to get our exchange. [SPEAKER_00]: and LinkedIn as well. [SPEAKER_00]: I started the LinkedIn part of Jupiter just a couple weeks ago. [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't exist, but now we're not. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're trying to build that out.

[SPEAKER_00]: On X, we already one of the largest accounts out there, but I think it's also important to show I'd say the trackfire world that, you know, we're serious and there's like a lot of cool stuff coming and people should take note. [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's incredible. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, LinkedIn.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's something that most crypto folks aren't doing, but, you know, coming from a $100 billion fund, $700 billion fund, you know, the importance of networking on LinkedIn. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, Chao Chao, we really appreciate all the time that you spent with us here today. [SPEAKER_01]: And we hope to have you back on soon again to talk about some more big updates. [SPEAKER_01]: And so you let us know when it works and we look forward to hearing more updates in the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: Take care. [SPEAKER_01]: Really. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.