Ep. 683 The Future of Data Ownership, AI Agents & Crypto Rewards

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Crypto101 podcast, presented by Gemini. [SPEAKER_01]: Your bridge to the future of money. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to another episode of The Crypto 101 podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: I am super pumped for our guest in our conversation today. [SPEAKER_01]: You guys know me. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your co-host Bryce as always joined by my notorious Compodria across the country, staying dry. [SPEAKER_01]: Hurricane season in Florida, Brendan.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not blowing you away. [SPEAKER_00]: Nah, can't blow me away. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to study. [SPEAKER_01]: You were forged in the gales of hurricanes over there. [SPEAKER_01]: I welcome him. [SPEAKER_01]: I think through a crypto bear market, a hurricane can't hurt me. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm then I'm over in a cali and you know, we get earthquakes and so, you know, a couple weeks ago, there was a big earthquake that my wife and I felt it was like the first time, like we were together, like feeling the same earthquake. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, maybe it was just the price of Bitcoin breaking out to new all-time highs because of that, but [SPEAKER_01]: No, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on in this world, and Charlie, you are joining us.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're the CEO and founder of Permission and you guys are on the cutting edge. [SPEAKER_01]: This earthquake, this explosion of AI and data. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's just incredible what you guys are building. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very happy that you're on the show and how are you doing Charlie? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm fantastic and thank you so much for having me as your guest. [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: Look, you guys are building some really incredible stuff in the crypto and AI space, but let's just backtrack and get our audience acquainted with who they're listening to. [SPEAKER_01]: So Mr. Charlie Silver, tell us all about how you kind of broken the crypto industry and what you were working on before that and kind of why crypto was the great kind of your magnum opus, if you will.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've been around for several decades, you know, in [SPEAKER_03]: tech and this space. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll give you the long story. [SPEAKER_03]: Starting out, I was at an entrepreneur for several decades and in the early dot com period, I built a company called Real Age.

[SPEAKER_03]: Real Age for people that are over 40 or 50, they'll recognize it because it was, [SPEAKER_03]: And we had this test called the real age test that told you how healthy you were in this metric called real age or biological age versus your chronological age, but at the end of the day, we collected hundreds of data points. [SPEAKER_03]: And then we would ask permission to the individual if they would like to receive more information about how their real age can be younger.

[SPEAKER_03]: And for people who opted in and said yes, which was about 60% of the audience. [SPEAKER_03]: The response rate wasn't a little better. [SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't five times better, but it was over 10x better. [SPEAKER_03]: to use their data to communicate with them. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we went on to lead health media. [SPEAKER_03]: We were one of the largest health media organizations. [SPEAKER_03]: We had 60 million users.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I ended up selling the company to herst for over $100 million. [SPEAKER_03]: This goes back over 12 years ago. [SPEAKER_03]: But what it led to was this notion [SPEAKER_03]: data has tremendous value, and when you ask permission, you get people's cooperation and engagement better than anything before. [SPEAKER_03]: So that sets up the business model.

[SPEAKER_03]: But in terms of my interest in crypto, it goes back decades, because my first job out of college, I worked in the US Congress.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when you're on the inside in Washington, you see what the corruption and you understand the money printing enterprise, you understand how the Fed and the US government worked together in this Ponzi scheme that you know is unsustainable. [SPEAKER_03]: So when I first read the white paper of Satoshi Nakamoto, [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_03]: We need a new form of value that the current value system created by the Federal Reserve and in concert with the government is unsustainable. [SPEAKER_03]: So that's how I got excited about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's, it's so crazy just to me like because crypto embodies like so many different things like all mashed up into one like you said sort of that counter cultural movement against sort of government overreach and government control it's like it's got that but it's also got like the tech bros really excited you know because it's got you know the the most cutting edge sort of developers.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's got the the bankers over excited over the guys like Tom Lee the private equity analysts like the public market analysts like all everybody's excited about crypto in block chain Because it really is the the perfect marriage of of tech in value and I think you know, I think you share this like everything's going to be on chain.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, whether it's stocks and bonds and commodities or all of your data, it's going to be on chain, it's going to be fully transparent and audible to those that you're able to grant permission to. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I really want to break down for our audience what permission.io is because, you know, in the world of chat GPT and, you know, perplexity and all these different applications.

[SPEAKER_01]: you're using these things and they're kind of taking a lot of data, they know about you. [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, I mean, we opted in because we agreed to the terms of service. [SPEAKER_01]: But we're not getting compensated for that. [SPEAKER_01]: We're literally paying, you know, Jackie B. Tear, whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: And then they're taking our data and they're marketing to us and all that kind of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: So, so break it down for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on with permission? [SPEAKER_03]: Well, permission. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's interesting. [SPEAKER_03]: We launched as permission.io, but we're actually in the middle in the next two weeks. [SPEAKER_03]: We've changed our domain to permission.ai, because AI is this transformative tech that since the start of the dot com, era since the start of the internet, this is the first fundamental change. [SPEAKER_03]: And AI is that transformative change.

[SPEAKER_03]: But at the end of the day, permission was founded with one principle that data has value [SPEAKER_03]: instead of all of the publishers and all the major platforms that capture your data and then there are the ones that monetize it and individuals don't get a piece of that action. [SPEAKER_03]: And so, permission, everything that we do from the development of our crypto ASK, that everything that we do is focused on allowing individuals to finally receive monetary value.

[SPEAKER_03]: for their data and control who gets to use it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's a big idea and I feel like at the end of the day it's going to be the advertisers that are really going to be excited about getting this data. [SPEAKER_01]: Is that really who's using it? [SPEAKER_01]: How does this kind of change the landscape of digital advertising in the context of this AI explosion?

[SPEAKER_03]: Ultimately, the world of digital advertising is going to become an agent to agent experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: Meaning, AI agents, which are just pieces of software to conduct tasks, is going to dominate the internet. [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody is going to have a personal agent, and you can get the permission agent at permission.ai. [SPEAKER_03]: Go and get your personal agent.

[SPEAKER_03]: uh... the permission agent and that businesses are going to all have agents so take any company seeking customers what they do today as they advertise programmatically on the internet but but very soon they're going to have agents seeking those customers and they're going to connect to individuals agents and they're going to make a deal our our logo is a handshake

[SPEAKER_03]: And any business agent who wants to connect with an individual, their agency is going to do it and they're going to make a deal and that's where value is exchanged. [SPEAKER_03]: That's where the business agent is going to ask permission and offer real value in exchange for data and engagement. [SPEAKER_03]: So that's the future and it's coming very, very, very fast.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to make sure that I understand this correctly because I want the audience to truly kind of put their selves in our shoes here and make sure that they're following along. [SPEAKER_00]: But this agent to agent protocol, this A2A protocol, is the idea that we all as individuals are going to have a form of AI through agents representing us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then these companies are going to have agents [SPEAKER_00]: on their end and what we're going to get to is a point where say my AI agent can interact with some sort of like retailer institutional agent and then they can kind of go back and forth. [SPEAKER_00]: Is that kind of what we're getting at here?

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely and it's coming so fast that ADA protocol developed by Google is now an open-source project and it's totally designed to work with any [SPEAKER_03]: any agent, I mean, whether it's a chat, GPT, and THROPIC for Flexity, you know, a grok, any agent built on any platform.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, work in the ATA environment, yeah, it's kind of great just like on that point like so I want to know if I'm listening to this right and understanding this right you're going to have companies that have these AI agents that are going to go out and seek sort of my AI agent if you will so like I'm going to have like no longer like a travel agent or

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't know my American Express booking agent or like all that kind of stuff, but it's all going to be like these little AI bots that are just on my behalf that I'm commissioning. [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, instead of okay, so the world of the internet today, you know, people typically start with a search, you know, go to Google and search for a hotel or airline, uh, you know, or other.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to have your own AI agent that says, hey, find me a botic hotel in New York City. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what's the best deal? [SPEAKER_03]: And that agent will execute that task. [SPEAKER_03]: And that goes for shopping, travel, you know, just information requests, anything that you go online for, instead of starting with a Google search, you'll start with your AI agent.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this makes sense and maybe it creeps on people out that are like all this sounds like some sort of futuristic AI from a movie or something, but, you know, this stuff really is becoming a reality. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it makes the most sense because who is going to know you better and who is going to know more of what you want? [SPEAKER_00]: Is it going to be this travel advisor that you speak with for 15 minutes over the phone?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it going to be... [SPEAKER_00]: um, someone like that that you outsource or is it going to be this artificial intelligence that you interact with on a daily basis? [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that for a lot of the listeners, you all can relate. [SPEAKER_00]: There's probably things that you all have told chatGPT or Grok or some of these AIs that you haven't even told like your family members about.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I know that [SPEAKER_00]: You know, these AI systems can know people better than I think a lot of their friends and family already know them. [SPEAKER_00]: So what makes more sense, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Is it this bot and everything that you put into it? [SPEAKER_00]: You talked about it, preserving a hotel or going on vacation or we can think about all the different use cases, who is going to know exactly what you like?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you go back to it and you say, well, it remembers that you like this kind of food, maybe you don't like trains, maybe you like to take a carous transportation, [SPEAKER_00]: And it's able to learn from everything that you put into it to optimize it, towards your exact experience. [SPEAKER_00]: And so my kind of wrap around point for this is just, it seems like that's the next logical step, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because almost nothing is going to know you better than these things and they're able to learn from what you tell it. [SPEAKER_03]: Brandon, you nailed it. [SPEAKER_03]: That's exactly right. [SPEAKER_03]: The permission agent and there'll be

[SPEAKER_03]: It's going to connect to your social media. [SPEAKER_03]: It can connect to your financial records. [SPEAKER_03]: It can connect to your health information. [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to know you better than you know yourself. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's exactly right. [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be able to work on your behalf to do whatever you need it to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: the place where individual data is going to be compensated for, that, you know, the internet for the first 25 years, nobody got paid for data except for publishers and platforms that collected it, now individuals are finally going to get paid for their data and it's worth a lot. [SPEAKER_03]: It's worth a lot. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, could be thousands of dollars a year. [SPEAKER_01]: for individuals and into their pockets, and essentially. [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_03]: It's a real asset. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, data is, you know, I hate to use this cliche, but it's true. [SPEAKER_03]: It's oil. [SPEAKER_03]: It's the oil of the information economy. [SPEAKER_03]: And instead of big platforms just taking your oil without compensation, [SPEAKER_03]: Finally, the use case that's going to enable individuals to really receive the value for their data.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it's it's super interesting and like kind of to Brendan's point into your point like just about all this data. [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to know you so well. [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be able to serve you with the best ads and then serve you with the best experiences in real life. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even going to talk to him, you know, Google already knows so much about us from our tracking history and all that kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now you're saying Google's AI is going to know my heart, my soul, my, you know, my every wish and desire. [SPEAKER_01]: So people might just be repelled against that. [SPEAKER_01]: How does permission kind of alleviate maybe that worry? [SPEAKER_03]: Well, once you have the permission agent, you're in control. [SPEAKER_03]: you own your career. [SPEAKER_01]: So permission you, you can't go and look Bryce Paul.

[SPEAKER_01]: What does he really think about, you know, certain sensitive things? [SPEAKER_01]: You can't like Charlie, you and your team can't go look at my permission chats. [SPEAKER_01]: Is that right or can you? [SPEAKER_03]: No, you've only allowed the individual's in control. [SPEAKER_03]: You decide who gets to use and see the data.

[SPEAKER_03]: you decide and the individual decides and they're going to decide it's a commercial arrangement that if you want Nike to have your data you're like that's your decision and you're going to make that decision based on what they're willing to compensate you for it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean if you're [SPEAKER_03]: home improvement, just about any commercial engagement that you're looking for, your data is worth tremendous amounts and understand that there are hundreds and thousands of companies capturing that data and then reselling it and there are the ones getting paid $500 a record, [SPEAKER_03]: That's worth a couple thousand dollars by me people capture that and then they sell it and you don't get anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's it's incredible and like that's really good context for us and you know, one of the recent things I saw, I think it was, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: You're not spotify. [SPEAKER_01]: Shopify and stripe and they're basically, you know, I kind of wanted to pull from what they were saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: They said meet customers where they are conversations between chat bots are the new storefront. [SPEAKER_01]: The next era of commerce is here. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to get your take on all this. [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe where would permission kind of sit in the stack. [SPEAKER_01]: Would it kind of sit in like, or would you guys basically be able to do something similar have spot of or Shopify and Etsy and different stores kind of directly integrated into permission?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's not our focus. [SPEAKER_03]: Our focus is to have the best digital twin or mini me. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, the permission agent represents you as an individual. [SPEAKER_03]: has all of your information, all of your data, and then you talk to it, and you ask it to execute tasks. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, if you're, you play golf, and you're looking for new golf equipment.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Nike or Calaway or Titleist, they're gonna have their agents looking for people and looking for agents that are seeking out golf information. [SPEAKER_03]: And they're gonna connect, and that's when, [SPEAKER_03]: The exchange happened, the value exchange data in exchange for a reward.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now, if you accept and you say, Cal, where you can have my information, you're going to be very open to receiving messages, whether it's email, other advertisements, and what's exciting, too, is that crypto wallets in my view are going [SPEAKER_03]: That's where CaloA is going to send you a message and communicate with you in your wallet.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I really believe, and I believe this for years, and I still believe it, that crypto wallets will become the new inbox, and that's how businesses will communicate. [SPEAKER_03]: Here's some crypto, and here's a message, and let's continue the conversation. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when it comes to this kind of thing, I have two questions in regards to it. [SPEAKER_00]: Number one, is it possible to opt in at one point and then opt out at a later point?

[SPEAKER_00]: And number two, is it possible to just opt into certain things and not into others? [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of like when you go to a new website and they want to collect your cookies and there's like a little button where you can like check certain boxes and uncheck others if you want to. [SPEAKER_00]: Does this kind of work like that? [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: You're in control. [SPEAKER_03]: If you opt into a certain company and you're done with them, you can opt out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. [SPEAKER_03]: And you're in total control. [SPEAKER_03]: You can opt in and opt out. [SPEAKER_03]: You can [SPEAKER_03]: totally decide who gets to see your data. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's interesting that you brought up cookies because cookies are kind of the biggest deception in the world. [SPEAKER_01]: I sound so good and easy and tasty. [SPEAKER_01]: You put their sonafarius. [SPEAKER_03]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_03]: You click on the I accept cookies.

[SPEAKER_03]: What you basically said is you can put a text file on my browser and track me everywhere. [SPEAKER_03]: And then that publisher sells that data. [SPEAKER_03]: They sell it. [SPEAKER_03]: It's one of the biggest revenue streams of publishers online, is selling their cookie consent data. [SPEAKER_03]: They sell it not once, twice, but dozens and dozens of times. [SPEAKER_03]: There are lots of buyers.

[SPEAKER_03]: And don't accept third party cookies, don't accept them because that just enables a publisher to track you and then sell your data and you don't get squat. [SPEAKER_00]: It is crazy that it's your data that's being tossed around here there. [SPEAKER_00]: I feel violated. [SPEAKER_01]: I feel violated. [SPEAKER_00]: You feel a little bit violated and the worst part about it is that it's a one-way street.

[SPEAKER_00]: You get violated and then you get nothing in return for it besides feeling the depression of being violated, probably getting some data leaked, you know, things that you don't want online being online and like I guess just to play counterpoint I guess what they would say is [SPEAKER_01]: like they told you, if your product is free, then you're the customer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you might not get anything when returned, but you were able to go scroll, brain rot, or whatever, you were able to go use a social media app. [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that was what you got in return for being violated. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, you've become the product. [SPEAKER_03]: If you become the product, you're the product. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, yeah, the web is very dark.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, how the internet works, [SPEAKER_03]: Combined with the fact that most of the major platforms, I mean, Elon Musk talked about this a lot, that most of the traffic reporting is click fraud. [SPEAKER_03]: It's bots. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just, when Brockton Gamble spends billions of dollars a year on online advertising, they know that half their money is going to bots. [SPEAKER_03]: They just don't know which half. [SPEAKER_01]: What a, what a racket.

[SPEAKER_01]: What a racket man. [SPEAKER_03]: It is a racket. [SPEAKER_03]: And AI is going to clean it up. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm sure there'll be dark elements of it, but you know, the agent agent protocol is going to really, really, make clear that it's going to be great for advertisers, because they're only going to reach people.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that advertisers are now instead of paying Facebook, [SPEAKER_03]: and, you know, LinkedIn and, you know, Snapchat, and all these platforms, they're gonna pay individuals directly. [SPEAKER_03]: And they're gonna get advertisers, they're gonna get better value. [SPEAKER_03]: And individuals are gonna finally receive value for their data. [SPEAKER_03]: So, I'm an optimist. [SPEAKER_03]: I think AI is gonna make the internet a much safer, better, more equitable place.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think AI has a lot of things going for it, and I think there's no doubt that it already is and can continue to do a lot of good on one hand, but I think on the other hand, people are a little bit scared that AI will take their jobs. [SPEAKER_00]: And I, Bryce, you know, we are reading through a report together about a week and a half two weeks ago. [SPEAKER_00]: And it really stood out to me when we were looking at the unemployment numbers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then for the most part, it was pretty low. [SPEAKER_00]: You look at unemployment 25 to 54 was at 3.6% and unemployment for 55 plus was at 2.9%. [SPEAKER_00]: I think most people would be really content with that. [SPEAKER_00]: It's when you start looking at the unemployment rate for 16 to 24, which is conveniently these simple, repeatable tasks that are typically pushed on to the entry level job market.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where it went to 10 and a half percent, which is really hot. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a crazy number, and so I think that's where people are starting to get a little bit scared. [SPEAKER_00]: And right now, again, those more complex jobs don't really seem to be in harms way as of yet. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that changes. [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess my question for you, Charlie, is like, what do you think about all this?

[SPEAKER_00]: And how does AI affect our jobs and unemployment numbers globally? [SPEAKER_03]: Well, AI is no different than any new technology that has a massive [SPEAKER_03]: productivity boost, think about cars, airplanes, electricity.

[SPEAKER_03]: All of these things can be pointed at. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, if you were in the early 20th century in the onset of cars, well, all the people that are building horse and buggies, I'm gonna be out of a job. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, you're right, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And the street cleaners that clean up the, what are stung, you know? [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, yes, it's transformational. [SPEAKER_03]: But it's a booster productivity.

[SPEAKER_03]: It will change things for sure and eliminate some jobs, but it just creates other ones. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's no different than any technology productivity improvement. [SPEAKER_03]: And this is no different. [SPEAKER_03]: The economy's going to change. [SPEAKER_03]: It will adapt, but it's only good for human beings. [SPEAKER_03]: New jobs get created while other ones get destroyed.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know if you know the economist, Joseph Schumpeter, but he was the one and Nobel Prize for describing the principle of creative destruction. [SPEAKER_03]: Things get creative, they get destroyed, and AI is just part of that ongoing technology advancement, but I only think it's good for human beings and will be good for [SPEAKER_03]: productivity and human existence. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you make a good point, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because we always look at the negative of like, what jobs can be taken away. [SPEAKER_00]: And any time that there's any big form of innovation, it does tend to create jobs. [SPEAKER_00]: And people don't talk about that enough, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine if we go back a hundred years and you,

[SPEAKER_00]: talk about all this they're going to say well all these different jobs are going to be out you know um you know farming is going to be more optimized because of the machines we're going to need less people that's going to bring people out of a job and you know there's going to be all these different areas of you know people who are making I don't know like weapons back then like oh people aren't going to use swords anymore all these myths are going to be out of the job and because machines are going to take those and

[SPEAKER_00]: then you go a hundred years into the future and you would have had to explain to these people, no, there's going to be millions of people working on things for the internet or millions of people creating data centers or millions of people working on creating artificial intelligence and chips and all this stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: And a hundred years ago, it would not have even been

[SPEAKER_00]: someone creating those little micro trips in the future inside of a shop like that one have even been possible for someone to think about yet because it wasn't even created or a possibility and I think that these future jobs are going to look something like that where in the moment right now we don't necessarily know what those are or how they can be but that doesn't mean that they can't be any kind of created or that they can't be possible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Technology improvements and advancements are only good for human beings. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's always a dark side. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like all humans, I mean, you know, there's good and evil. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's good and evil on everything. [SPEAKER_03]: But, [SPEAKER_03]: technology's a good side.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree like I've always said this like on the show You know back when crypto was really under the gun by like the former administration and like everybody's saying You'll crypto's being used by bad people to do bad things.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like yeah [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, there's a small percentage of bad people doing bad things with crypto, but there's a small percentage of bad people that are doing bad things with the internet with guns right with food with drinks with anything there's bad people are going to do bad things okay good people are going to do good things [SPEAKER_01]: you can't, you know, legislate technology out of existence because of like, you know, some small subset of people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, I love what you said there. [SPEAKER_01]: And like, I think so many people are are now getting around like, riled up around AI and safety. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, it's good to get riled up around AI and safety and data. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's good to like push it forward and not like completely restrict it. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, [SPEAKER_01]: What on the regulatory front, are you kind of looking at that might sort of affect permission?

[SPEAKER_01]: I know we have got the Clarity Act, which is like something crypto people have been on the show. [SPEAKER_01]: But is there anything lurking in the AI legislation or the data legend that you might be privy to? [SPEAKER_01]: That we just have no idea about. [SPEAKER_03]: Now, when I launched permission, it was around the same time that Europe established GDPR, the global data protection regulation. [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought that was going to be a global trend in a trend in the US.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the GDPR is basically a set of regulations that give individuals more control of their data. [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought that was going to be prevalent in the US. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the US has held off on it, primarily because of the strength of Google, Microsoft, Meta, Amazon. [SPEAKER_03]: But California has the California Consumer Privacy Rights Act, which is essentially the same as GDPR. [SPEAKER_03]: There is a movement in the US towards regulation about data use.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the key principle, I'm not a big fan of regulation, but transparency has to be the rule. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and that's what's so exciting about crypto. [SPEAKER_03]: provides transparency in that amongst all of the things in crypto and why it will become prevalent on Wall Street. [SPEAKER_03]: Anybody who's worked on Wall Street and I have, I've started hedge funds, I've started public companies, I've launched ETFs, it's so dark.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's just like the internet. [SPEAKER_03]: You don't know what the hell is going on on Wall Street and the trading [SPEAKER_03]: And it's so obfuscated to the public. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what is exciting about blockchain and crypto. [SPEAKER_03]: Is the core principle, in my view, why I was so excited about crypto going back at decade, is the transparency and that blockchain gives an immutable record of transactions. [SPEAKER_03]: That is the big innovation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the other big innovations, I think, of blockchain-based systems is sort of the economic alignment via a token. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the ask token is, you know, part and parcel inextricable, a v-core component of permission. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I want our listeners to kind of get their heads around the ASK token. [SPEAKER_03]: into enable businesses, advertisers, to ask for permission to use that data. [SPEAKER_03]: It's had one purpose from day one.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, I've always believed, and we've been very mission driven with this idea that advertisers and businesses should ask permission to use data. [SPEAKER_03]: We have been working for years to find the rice use case that can scale. [SPEAKER_03]: and the permission to agent an AI is that use case. [SPEAKER_03]: And so ASK is the token that enables advertisers to request or ask permission.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, it struggled a bit on price, but we haven't, you know, been a pump and dump scheme. [SPEAKER_03]: We're like focused on utility and that utility has to scale for the price to scale. [SPEAKER_03]: And so we're super excited about the permission agent. [SPEAKER_03]: We've always sought regulation.

[SPEAKER_03]: We very early on went the Swiss finma and Switzerland was the most mature jurisdiction for regulation and we sought regulation and went through the process through Swiss finma. [SPEAKER_03]: And so we are fully regulated as a utility token. [SPEAKER_03]: No insider has ever sold a token. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm really excited about ASK and permission agent because now it's going to scale. [SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to be reflected in all things for ASK.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's interesting. [SPEAKER_00]: As we've been going through this conversation, it reminds me of a past-crypto project, or I guess an existing one. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say it like, certainly not deceased, but it reminds me kind of like an upgraded version of Brave or the bat project. [SPEAKER_00]: Would you say that it's similar to that? [SPEAKER_00]: And are there any kind of key differences there?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there's some similarities, but there's some very core differences. [SPEAKER_03]: that allowed you to browse the internet privately, where nobody is collecting any data. [SPEAKER_03]: But unfortunately, for them, they say, well, you know, if you want your data used, you can earn a BAT because that's how the value is exchanged. [SPEAKER_03]: You can only earn a BAT if you share your data. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's kind of the opposite of privacy.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've always taken the position that data has value and that asked you to represent it. [SPEAKER_03]: So we're not trying to bait and switch anybody. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, be private. [SPEAKER_03]: But, oh, but if you want to earn something, you know, make your data available. [SPEAKER_03]: We've always been on the principle your data has value. [SPEAKER_03]: We're here to help you earn from it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so how does an advertiser get their hands on the ASK token to start working in the ecosystem? [SPEAKER_01]: Because that ASK token would then go to whoever's using the platform. [SPEAKER_03]: All right. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it will be fully automated at some point. [SPEAKER_03]: where an advertiser just logs on, they buy ASK, to distribute it to their targeted potential customers.

[SPEAKER_03]: But now they come, you know, we're the intermediary, they buy, you know, they say they want to reach, you know, X amount of people that have X, Y, Z characteristic, were the conduit to make that happen. [SPEAKER_03]: So they pay us, [SPEAKER_03]: convert that in the ASK to distribute to the users. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: And when this sort of transactions kind of go through, does permission make any money?

[SPEAKER_01]: How does permission kind of sit here? [SPEAKER_01]: Or do they take a fee? [SPEAKER_01]: And then does any of those fees kind of go to sort of re-enforcing the market or buying back the token or adding liquidity? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, every time an advertising wants to reach an individual, we tell them what it costs, they just to make it simple across the dollar.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, the vast majority of that dollar goes to the individual, via ASK, we go into the market to buy that ASK, to distribute it to the individual. [SPEAKER_03]: So that creates real demand for ASK, [SPEAKER_03]: We're looking to make 20% of that transaction. [SPEAKER_03]: So of that dollar, the lion share goes to the user via ASK. [SPEAKER_03]: And we go into the market to buy the ASK to distribute it. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: And is it on, I think I saw it's on the base network, but then when I was reading through some of the documentation, I also saw layer zero as mentioned. [SPEAKER_01]: So can you tell us a little bit about the architecture? [SPEAKER_03]: Our token is runs on with Layers zero, which enables it to run on any blockchain, but when you open a new account on permission, that's registered on base.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are a huge believer first in Ethereum, and then the layer two's of Ethereum, that [SPEAKER_03]: It's going to be, I mean, there'll be other networks, but the Ethereum and the layer two is going to be the dominant player, dominant ecosystem. [SPEAKER_03]: So, when you register or initially on permission, you receive ASK and it's registered [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: And kind of in conclusion and wrapping things up, what's next for permission?

[SPEAKER_01]: The ASK token, kind of, what are you most excited about? [SPEAKER_01]: What's in the pipeline? [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'm so excited about the permission agent. [SPEAKER_03]: This is our product. [SPEAKER_03]: And getting, we're just launching it this week to the public. [SPEAKER_03]: It's been a development for a long time. [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we want people to register, get the agent, get your own .ask domain that we offer at very low cost.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you can be priced .ask and brandin.ask. [SPEAKER_03]: That will be your new Web3 domain and your wallet address. [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think Web3 domains are going to be the new email address. [SPEAKER_03]: And you can start earning ASK and we're really excited about just growing the user base of permission agent holders and as this ATA world unfolds, you know, I think we're going to enable people to earn quite a bit from their data.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's what gets us excited. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Charlie, one of the things that you told me in a past conversation was the most important thing for anything is timing. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that you guys have the perfect timing for permission. [SPEAKER_01]: A world where AI is on the up swing. [SPEAKER_01]: We got crypto, you know, in Q4, which is going to have a big up swing.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've got a great sort of economy that's starting to research and some cycles that are starting to move higher. [SPEAKER_01]: Charlie, I think you guys are nailing the timing here. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're excited for permission and we welcome you back any time. [SPEAKER_01]: We really enjoyed this conversation and anything that you want to leave our viewers with before we close out. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting the way you mentioned it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is absolutely the right timing, but you know how you get, you know how you become an overnight success and you get the timing right? [SPEAKER_03]: You work your ass off for 10 years, so that's how you get the timing, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you just, you got to just be there, stay in the game. [SPEAKER_01]: Charlie, you are an absolute definition of perseverance and innovator.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited about permission and everybody at home listening, check out the show notes. [SPEAKER_01]: You'll be directed towards exactly where you can get involved and find out more information. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much everybody and we'll talk to you guys [SPEAKER_01]: You