You're listening to the back home network presented by home field apparel. My folks, welcome back to Crimson cast, excited to have Ryan on for two reasons. First off, I love talking to him at the end sees the season. The second thing is Is you don't have the joy yet of having a wife yet unless you did something, I didn't know Ryan. But um, my wife does not listen to the Pod.
Very rarely gives me feedback stops laughing at my jokes as you do 15 years in the marriage, but the one thing she does love is when I was telling her about our pods. And I'm like this, a to copilot, no pilot pod. And she's like, that's funny. So I bring you the to copilot. No pilot pod Ryman. How you doing? Good man. It's been a while. So I was, I will say, Scott, I'm angry at you for her. Popping out as soon as the game was over against Purdue this
year. So you couldn't come and meet us once again proving that the two of us cannot be in the same building. At the same time it would cause a tear in the space-time Continuum. I don't know but we did not yet meet in person and that better change. Next time, worked out. Yeah, pick a take a game. Where it's not like I'm not there three hours early and I'm with you, it's kids. I wanted to get home and see the kids. I've been gone all day. But I we will blame it on me
this year. Well, blame it on you the year before. And then next year, we can get it next year we can blame it on. One of the transfers are 100%, 100% Fair. Let's do it. Do you? I thought I'd offer you this. Do you want to your you like me sometimes just sit back and we get to listen to Galen or Jared. Do the home-field promo. You want to run the home field promo? I'm you've heard it like a million times. Like do you want to go and just talk about hope-filled and say
home for your first order. 15% off Scott. I am a guest here. I think. Your responsibilities, my friend. I'm just going to avoid it at all costs at a time. I can't it's all you buddy, but I will keep it short, but I hope field apparel as you may know, Ryan obviously doesn't but they are a proud sponsor of the back home, network of which Crimson Castle has a happy participant of, but no, check them out. They have bam shirts for everything.
I will say this, that my bracket pool, which I've been doing for 25 years, this is the first year where we may have. Nobody He picked the winner. Like nobody picked the right school. I have I let kids join in just for fun. My buddy's. Six-year-old had Yukon to make to win it all. He's the only person left in our pool who can win, but my other buddy has first and second locked up. If Miami beats Yukon, he wins both spots gets like 850 bucks.
So I was like telling him sitting in, you know, an update to the to the group. I was like, you got, he's wenzels got a route for Miami and I sent him a link to home field like You go, you can find five or ten. Great Miami shirts, go for it. So home field has every shirt. You could possibly imagine check it out promo. Code home for 50 percent off your first purchase that is home-field apparel where one for the team as they say. So Ryan, what's up? I'm going to start big and we'll
just go here. Like, I mean, give me your, we have like a week to kind of decompress. We can talk about the Miami game if you want. But I'm just, I'm curious. You're like, overall thoughts of how do you process this season? What are you going to remember? And what are your thoughts from the 20:22 20:23 season. Yeah you know there are a lot of high points this season. I will say and I thought that the team came together down the
stretch. You know there's that you know stretch for they won with like seven of eight or something. It would not really down the stretch but sort of towards the end of the season, where they really played some really good basketball and you had hurt. You fee, know in Jackson Davis, both playing really well, and then if you know kind of hit a wall, There Was, You Know, One game on one game off. Off those high points are what I'm going to.
Remember, I think the two wins over Purdue were really the high point. If you want to pick one out, I thought they played really well against Kent State but it's still Kent State. No matter how good we thought they were. It's still Kent State. But overall, when I look at it, I think it assembly call. We set them up as I successful season would be finishing in the top for the Big Ten. That's always your goal.
I think, is top for the Big Ten if you went well and sometimes it depends on your schedule, what your matchups are, you know, and sometimes it's bad luck. I think there's some of that this year. They had a really tough schedule in the Big Ten, whereas I thought pretty you got off pretty easy. So, top four in the Big Ten, they accomplish that, and we said that they should reach the sweet 16 and they did not. And yes, they lost the team that went to the final four in Miami.
But Didn't play particularly well in that game. And they had some real failings where I thought there was room to really win that game and take advantage of it and so they fell short there. So it's a mixed bag for me. And the one reason that it is disappointing to me is the opportunity. They had with the players they have, and the fall off, that is coming for next year and I don't know, we don't know what's going to happen. The transfer portal, but a lot of very key players.
To be gone and from Indiana. And so this was the year. They really had to do something to make a statement to say this program is where it is and you didn't get to the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. And so, that's the disappointment I have. You had a, yeah, did All-American, all time player, and you had a first-round pick at point guard and, and covering the two most important positions arguably on the court. You had Stellar players that
could go toe-to-toe. With any other twosome in the country and you didn't get out of the first weekend. So that's disappointing. And I think Mike wasn't has a lot of work to do. I think his system needs a lot of tweaks, but there were high points this year, that you want that all, look back at and be happy with. And so it is it's a mixed bag for me and, you know, hoping that we get some good news over the next couple weeks in the, in the transfer portal, pretty much it.
So I'm looking at it. Yeah, we'll get to next II would disagree with you, on, where I think the future is what we can get to that. I agree with a lot. Of what you'd like. That's that's very much my feel for this season as well. Like it was a good year. I, what I've been kind of wrestling with.
And I wanted to chat with you about, is I hate excuses because it over time, you know, the Rocks get you know, they get sand it off and you kind of forget all the particularities look back and it's like, man, Archie had a bad for years like, well, you know, his first year, Geron Davis got injured.
Like no one, nobody remembers that and it really doesn't totally matter because it wasn't like, the Archie experience is like was awesome, had that even healthy But you kind of just you know people will slowly over time. Forget that you know, Romeo Langford wasn't really healthy. I'm not here to be an Archie apologist. But like, what I'm wrestling with is, I agree with everything you said about this season and it's, it was a good season.
There's a bit of disappointment for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm having a hard time grappling, like, how do I fit in the Xavier Johnson injury to this team? Because on one hand I agree with what I said that you'll look back and 10 12 years and you know by kids and their kids not going to look back on. A season with fondness but I'll be like, oh that's he wants it.
You know, that was an okay like that wasn't a great year in Indiana, basketball history but having just lived through it. You know, you're looking at Xavier Johnson is you know, easily the second most important person coming in this year and then with hoods rafita moving up, probably was the third most important person on this team and I truly believe his injury put Hood Shafi know in a position where he was playing out of position the entire year where he really should have been
a two guard. You were Asking him to distribute the ball and be the lead score and be the lead defensive player on the other teams guard. You're asking, it's a ton of him, I think it, it Woodson's defensive scheme, was built around having a guy like Xavier at the point to do that and everything changed. And so I'm that's what I'm kind of grappling with. I look at this season. As I do think I would have loved to have seen what Xavier here would have done for this team
the entire year. But also, you know, it is what it is, and every team has injuries and you. It just say, well, you know, put up a banner because, you know, Championship without Xavier, so, that's kind of what I'm Restless wrestling with. But I was looking back with last 15-20 years, I'm not sure if there is an injury, like Mo Creek was a big injury but that team wasn't really doing anything. Like I don't know if there's an in a year where an injury hurt. A team more than 4 IU then
Xavier this year. Yeah, the only one I can think of is maybe OG and Adobe because of how. Yeah, he was gonna be to that team, but I don't think it's more important that what Xavier was Was. So this is what I'll say about. The Xavier Johnson is your first of all, the biggest thing that Xavier Johnson, you know, you talk about. You're right about geology know, maybe having to be thrust into a point guard role to quickly and,
and all that. I thought I thought he worked his way into it. It still felt like there were times they needed another ball handler. A lot of times actually. Here's what I'll say about Davey Johnson. The biggest thing that was missing when he went out. Injured was on-ball defense. That was the biggest thing that was missing.
They got absolutely gutted by straight line drives from a lot of smaller guards, and you saw it against Northwestern, you saw it against Iowa, I mean Penn State not as much but you did see a lot of slow rotations and things like that and in jail who Cioppino was a very good Defender. Very physical, his great size, but there were times that use a
fresh When he would get beat. And so I think the defense is the biggest thing that suffered was savior Johnson out and you see it from the defensive metrics that were better last year than they were this year. It's because they had a ball stopper. I will also say this Avery Johnson, got injured in December. You had a long time to adjust to his inquiry fair. And you had a long time to develop a bench.
You had a long time to develop a secondary ball handler and they didn't really do it. And and so this wasn't like an injury. All the Big Ten season that, you know, you were relying on somebody, you got into a rhythm and boom, he's gone. This was a very early injury and it's the reason he'll be able to likely come back next year. So, that's what I say to that. I mean, it's not incorrect if they had Xavier Johnson, they're a better team.
There's no question about that. And I do give a little leeway for that i-it's, probably adds, two more, big ten wins. And I think they may be 3 because I think they play Northwestern much better. And then you throw in maybe one win against Iowa, something like that. But also and also I think that they needed him against Miami quite frankly. So I do give a little Grace for
that. But at the same time, you know, there was a lot of time for somebody else to develop and Step Off the Bench and that didn't that never really happened. And we got into this weird area where I guess Trea Galloway starting you know and you know it wasn't like it wasn't like any was in and out and and yeah. Yeah, it just never felt comfortable with, with the depth that they had that they could develop and bring somebody on.
You talk about the no, I agree. And you're dead-on with, like it happened in December and that's, that's why I'm like wrestling with it. But yeah, of course, the funny thing with the dep is I'm as guilty of this as anybody, but I think of this, like, you guys do a lot more preview stuff on assembly calls, you get in depth and it I just want to, I want everyone to remember this right now because like we get in this cycle and again, I am not immune to it.
Like, we looked at Jordan Geronimo having like, you know, 28 good minutes at the end of March last year. And it's like, all right, so we'll project him. It kind of like the old depot level. Yes, we have Geronimo, like you, you gotta give your auto as medicine that you go to this year. And it's like, he's not even around and it's like, you're seeing similar things with Caleb Banks. Now not saying happy great. But it's like guys got a lot of energy. It's like will see.
And then every year in October it's like we have when we talk about it, it's like, man, what are we going to find minutes for all these guys? We gotta get. You know, and then it's like you get to March and it's like can we just get eight good minutes at it tomorrow. Beige like it's so funny. How that psycho happens every year and just I want everyone to remember the other folk draft
but it CFL draft. Everybody's takes their team had the best draft ever eat at the NFL dries as somebody who writes about sports for a living, we will do draft reviews and I'll be like, yeah, these teams didn't nail it. I hear from everybody, it's very obvious, could be very obvious. They had a bad draft was like, what are you talking about? This guy was steal, he's gonna start right away, and it's like, Early played on his college team, what are you talking
about? You know, I mean it's but I will sit with Geronimo. You mention him and it's very funny. He had those two games in the middle of the Season where he was phenomenal. It was Wisconsin and Illinois and at Illinois back-to-back in a double-double 12 and 11 against Wisconsin that had 13 points and eight rebounds against Illinois and then he got hurt and you basically never heard from him again and but yeah, I you're right. I think that we do over value,
they play some bad. Teams and you overvalue, the performances going into the season. You hear about how great everybody is. And you know how oh, this guy's worked out over the offseason. He's bigger, he's stronger, he's faster. He's he's making threes and then they never shooting at. We heard about trade, Trace Jackson. Davis is jump shot every offseason. You heard about greatest jump. Shot was and then and it is right hand. That was the other thing
throughout his career. The right hands. Looking good man. Right. And some good. The only year we didn't hear about the right hand was entering his senior year and this year he actually had And and and so, you know, you get fed stuff from these guys and some of it is you're trying to pump the guys on your team up. Some of it is, hey, in practice,
it's much different than a game. I always tell people that, you know, you hear it. A lot from coaches like, hey, these guys when they, when they practice will do play well, to get them actually better, you have to play them in games, no matter how hard it hurts. You gotta play in games and these guys got some run early in the season. And, and then that kind of fell off. And that happens. When you play tough games when you play Kansas, we play Arizona.
When you, when you have tough games lined up that are swing games for you as far as seating and things like that, go, you need to play your good players. And so a lot of these guys, like Caleb Banks. Didn't get as much big as many minutes as he needed to get this year. I don't think I think that was a failing. I think that they consistently. Yeah. Left him on the bench because I think he's gonna be very important moving forward. So it's yeah.
It's this weird balance of you want them to develop the bench, but the same. You want to win games but at the same time you risk that if you play those younger guys and all that. So I do think that was a failing this year though was was the bench development. We'll see if those guys develop in the offseason. You mentioned Trace that, you know, working on that right hand. That's the other thing I want to ask, like, you know, where do you fit Trace in the Legacy.
But I will start off with this that. You know what, I think of this season. I will obviously think of Trace Jackson Davis, but something I've been saying the last couple weeks is, you know, For most IU fans, we talked about, you know, we look at the offseason like, you know, guys, making the leap and the off Seasons always been that Oladipo sophomore to junior year and rightfully, so he made
a huge leap. But I've been saying that, you know, the thing I'm going to remember is that trace Made that leap this year it because like he was really good, but the amount of thing and I've been the one always make. I want to see him shoot more and shoot more threes, and I would have loved to have seen that, but what all the things he added to his game, this offseason it's little pieces here and there and
it's not as expensive. Mostly awesome is maybe Oladipo just looked at me like, oh my God, this guy's went from like, you know, whatever you eight points, a game to 15 points a game and he's a, you know, top ten pick, like, Tres rounded the edges, but he did so much to his game that I think it's, and he was so good already in such a focal point of the offense. I do think it's kind of lost in the shuffle how much he improved
his game. He was Osterman pointed this out on one of his last pods, which had to go back and check, but, you know, Trace Jackson, Davis assist rate in the Big Ten this season. And was better than Yogi Ferrell in 2016 which is just mind-boggling, you know, gives us his Jackson Davis is assist rate.
You know when his four years 8.5 10.8 13.9 24.8 just absurd for a guy who really plays in like eight foot radius on the corporate but he's bringing the ball up in like that's I'm still not sure where he fits into me, Legacy wise, you know. So many guys that I, you have won so many things and it's tough to be like, art your Mount Rushmore.
Or without a Big Ten title without you know a final four on the right side, I do look at it's like art, man, like I use not getting that shit in the last 20 years, if we're not winning a ton of Big Ten titles. So like there has to be a new paradigm where you have to fit this guy in somewhere because. But anyway, I will say that leaf that Trace Jackson Davis made. I don't think enough people are talking about how much he grew in one season. And to me, that's the other
takeaway I have from this year. Well, and that's what's funny is use an All-American last year, yeah. And And got so much better. I mean, the fact he's bringing the ball up his quickness, his post moves, I mean that's the thing is, you're right. He doesn't leave a 7 foot radius but his post moves in his quickness in the post. The biggest change in him though. One hundred percent last year, he made Big 10 all-defensive
team. I had people who cover teams in the league texting me, just laughing at that because he had a lot of blocks but he would leave his man a lot. Get back side dunks, all the time from his guy he was not disciplined defensively. He would Chase Ball. So he put up block numbers, but it wasn't a great defender. He was a great defender this year. I mean completely transformed his game.
And that's why, you know, the whole year and we were talking about this preseason and last year is limit, this guy's minutes as much as you can early in the season when you don't need him because he's doing so much for you on both ends. It's killing you. A lot of big guys, don't play a whole lot of the offense. They stick in the lane and they just alter shots. And and some, you know, get blocks and Bounds, but they're not out on the floor guarding,
they don't have to guard guards. 20 feet from the from the hoop sometimes. Like what he did for Indiana is it's staggering how much he did for that team and how much it was on his shoulders, only without Trace Jackson. Davis, this is not a 500 team and I think there's some talented guys on this team, but the whole thing was built on him. If he went out in January, this team doesn't reach 500 and and no, that would be an injury. You'd have to. That would be Asterisk, hit the
reset button on the season. Yeah, you know, play for the to play for the draft pick as I always joke. But yeah, no. I yeah, yeah, his change and the development and I mean, trace, the thing about Trace that I'm gonna miss. Most is just his attitude that do never had a bad attitude. He knew never to through some really big being on some really bad teams and playing some really bad basketball. He was always consistent and he never let it's very rarely that show.
How Rated he was with it. And even this year, you can tell he thought they were better than they than they perform. They finished. But there's a reason that guy in four years, put up the numbers he did. And it's the work you put in and I would say you're right, he got immensely better this season. I think he played himself into the NBA this season. I don't know how long, he'll
play, how much he'll play. But I think he played himself into the NBA on Dowling, and they projected, he's projected and draft picks, man. That's I know. I'm there. People put him in the back of the first round. And I think that's because of the increased athleticism, because of his ball handling skills and his movement skills that Definitely got better. He was not applauding big man and I don't think he ever really was but he certainly wasn't this year.
You've I mean, he handled the ball and played more like a 69 guy as opposed to a 7-footer. Yeah, no I'm that's so that's, I'll segue that as we look into, if you're good getting off the season a little bit look into the future. You know, when we look at the the offseason, here's the Paradigm that I'm looking at things, that you tell me if you agree or disagree, like, you know, What's it had that comment
in the in the postgame? He's like I've never really had a big man heavy offense in the NBA. It's something that I was, you know, kind of looking at when we hired Woodson is like, you know, those I would joke like those early. Nick seems he had was kind of like, you know, the Warriors ball three ball before, you know, before it had that, that was a roster. It wasn't like, I'd have to go back and look is like j.r. Smith and like it was like a roster.
Jason Kidd, it wasn't roster. You're like, man, that's like those are a bunch of three-point Deadeye Shooters. Like it really wasn't. I do Wonder like to me this offseason is really fascinating because We combating favorite. It's incredibly important that they yes this offseason. Well I think if he comes back with the same offense like we're screwed like it's just kid but I do think there's a there's a real world where Woodson was given this team.
It's like you have to get, you got to bring Trace back, you obviously want to keep him. He's a transformational player, but in this is no knock to him. It's just, you have to run a very different kind of offense to highlight traces skills. You can't do a 5 and out, shoot a bunch of three. He's as much as I wanted to shoot more threes, it's like you do have traced Jackson Davis. You can't just Chuck it up all the time. I do wonder if Woodson built an offense. That maximize the talent for
what he had. And now that he has a complete white slate, a complete reset button, if we're going to see a really transferred, I hope we do. But I do, you know, four people look at this as like, man, like we got you know, this offense is going to work. Like, I wonder if Woodson's like, dude, I know. No, I have this other offense ready to go. I just I can't put it in with it with this the team I have. I look at Purdue very similarly. It's like yeah.
You like you got a 74 dude in the post like you you got to give him the ball or you got to hit cut them. So I that's where I look at it as. Like I do think we're going to see something radically different if we don't, I think, then we really need to be concerned. Yeah. And and I'll say this about about what? I don't think he maximized the offense this year. I think it was very efficient. Some degree, but I do think it's
some point. You have to start running stuff for Shooters, especially when you're behind in some of those games and they never really ran offense for Shooters. They basically, you know, Miller cop waited for kick outs and and the Iowa game was the worst words, like you're down 15. It's like you just start going. Yeah. Yeah, what are we doing? Run Miller cop off to pin downs and see what happens like, you know, I mean and it's stuff.
You can drop in a huddle. It's not like you have to build a whole offense around it. I mean, but you just didn't see a lot of that. And, but, yes, I mean, the offense has to be radically different. They have to embrace modern basketball and three-point shooting and you know, look at look at Miami, look at UConn, look at some of the teams that are in the final four. San Diego State is D1 example against that and go Aztecs love
my San Diego guys. But there are Rock fight team and you know, they just dirty up games and if they shoot 42% they're going to win the game pretty much. San Diego State. The other teams in this final four are teams that can that play fluid modern Basketball, Shoot the ball guard heavy, and that's basketball these days. It just is. And if you don't have the guys who can do that offensive ly on the flip side, you're probably not going to have the guys who can defend it.
Either you need guys who go against that every day in practice and all of that, that's modern basketball. Now, I know it's not always Big Ten basketball, but this is, if you want to win championships, this is the way you've got to play. Now, I say you have a big man. Sure, but it's got to be a big man who can play on the floor, could face up. Maybe hit a jumper.
Doesn't have to be a three-point shooter but a guy who can move fluidly away and can act as a rim protector on the other end and then you gotta have guards and he got have guards that can shoot and he got out of guards that can drive and mess things up. And he got to run an offense that maximizes all of that. And it's tough because it's all about the guys you get you know. I mean you you can't run that offense you can't run Miami's offense with Indiana's roster
this year. You just In and no matter how badly you want to whether he wants to or not, I don't know. I mean Mike Woods and you look at his offenses from the NBA it's very I so heavy. It's a lot of individuals making plays, which I don't think fits perfectly well in college basketball unless you've got a bunch of high-level talents. Like Jalen has, you can own a trace Jackson Davis next year, it doesn't look like they're going to have that. And so, is it going to be an ISO heavy offense?
Is it gonna be an offense where you use the set, you know, plays. Item to get your points or is it going to be about players getting points? So again, just a lot to process about this off. So we don't know what it is going to look like you're right. They've had a unique roster for the last two years and a very unique centerpiece that doesn't really exist in college basketball across the board anymore.
You've got a handful of teams that have that and then others, that don't and most others don't. And so again, just will be interesting to see what they do. Will be interesting to see who they add because, you know, your roster is only as good as, as a As you're constantly bringing in these days with Anne, IL with the transfer portal, and with recruiting your roster is only as good as the is, that is the
latest guys. You brought in you might own for you for that good decent base transfer for that transfer talk. Like and I'm trying to be overly optimistic. Like I look at like if Woodson puts in a new offense that's forward-thinking and dynamic that's great. I also look at this offseason as, you know, he not only does he have an opportunity to nail like he should nail it.
And honestly, if if Woodson Ian needs to be able to nail it off season like this because I think this is how college basketball is moving. You have, you know, let's assume Xavier's coming back or he gets the waiver to come back. It's like you have a 23 24 year old like all big 10 point guards. Like I can get you know, you can tell any transfer, I can get you the ball, you have renew and the you know in the postseason you know, versatile wingman who can be a big man? You can move around.
It's like I got three open spots. Like I have a great team, you're gonna be on TV, you can be in the Big Ten, I then I owe money. I got three starting spots for you, and my thing is, like, this is again Woodson's got all everything in advance. He should be able to nail it, this off season. I was, I was with my dad, yesterday, who's 90 about to turn 93. I love him, he's still doing great, but he's definitely in the old thinking of like, you know, we have a turnover, this
roster and I was looking good. It's funny a year ago, he's like man we just need more big men and like like who he is I don't know. You like the Ed and chat home Grandma gather all of the tournament like they're all the guys weren't playing and I look at this year again it's a snapshot Shot. But you know, you're talking about the final four teams based on the pace they play. I look at it like you're San Diego State team. Would she do better than I three of the five starters or
transfers Yukon? You got one. Dude is a transfer. Only one freshman starter for FAU. Three of the five starters are transfers Greenlee was three years ago but still, yeah, don't transfer and Miami. Three of the five starters were transfers. It's like these teams were already made on the Fly and they're all in the final four. I know it's a snapshot of right now. But, you know, None of the I think I saw the stat like there's no McDonald's all-americans, you know.
So like you can really build a Terry Fair. It's to be fair. It's a weird year as far as the tournament is concerned but you looked at, you know the last date you know, last 16, there were a lot of teams that were classic classically built teams that did not make it that lost in the tournament and it depends, look. It also depends what your goal is every year is your goal to win a National Championship? Will you got to walk?
A narrow tightrope to win a national champs, you gotta and the people who win the NCAA tournament every year, I always say that, you know, because the NCAA tournament doesn't reward the best team in the nation, it rewards the team that plays the best down the stretch. Essentially, you want to go to a system where the best team wins it's going to look like English
soccer. I mean you know where you just you throughout the season, you score points and at the end, the team that played the best all season wins college, basketball is not that coach football, isn't that? There's a tournament and in the tournament it you have to get incredibly lucky to win a National Title. I have always said that you got a hit injury luck, you got to hit matchup luck. I mean, if Indiana does it face
Syracuse in 2013? That seems going to the final four if they faced anybody else in that may be other than Wisconsin, Wisconsin, always had their number. They're going to the final four and once you're in the final four, anybody can win. It it's locked. I would say the same thing about 2012 like playing Kentucky. It sweet 16. That was the, we gave them, the hardest game. That was the worst apart, like that was, you played the best team in the tournament we played
about. I think Indiana. Is it any other bracket there in the Final Four and Twenty? Yeah, it's probably true. But, you know, so you got to get really lucky. So is your goal every year to win the tournament or get to the Sweet 16, or whatever or is it to when your conference and and to me, the goal should always be when your conference because everything else is gravy you winter conference. You're happy, you know, like as much as we want to make sure. Only it was these days.
What you want to make fun of Purdue for getting bounced early all the time, they are winning the conference and and and you know they have that to fall back on. So it's not like they finished fourth and, you know, in a dead heat got a one seed and got up ended their winning the conference. They're winning the Big Ten and
they've done it a lot recently. But the other thing is, in the Big Ten, you have to build your roster differently than you do everywhere else to win the conference in my opinion. And so, So that's the dichotomy is like, it's hard to game plan for both. If you're in the Big Ten, the way it's currently structured, you know, the ACC. You can build your roster to win the ACC and when in the tournament and we've seen a lot of teams do that.
Seen a lot of SEC teams do it. There's more free-flowing, basketball Big, Ten, whatever, or Big 12. Whatever. Big Ten is different. It's a unique conference and the games are played differently, their officiated differently. And so you might need to build your roster differently. I tend to think you should. Try your goal. Every year should be top four in your conference and the sweet 16. But Winning your conference always feels pretty damn good.
And then the tournament is just a crapshoot every year at know that no more than this year perfectly leads me to a question I had for you is because you also with the big lead. You follow kind of, you know, Sports we little more broadly than some of us who just follow IU or Big Ten. Do you think? Like I've never like the question of you know man what's the Big 10 doing wrong? Because are not winning because I'm winning the tournament.
You know, they haven't won a title since Michigan say cuz I'm like, you, I think I've not done the research lately but for a While there were you looked at the conference breakdown of teams in the final, four of the Big Ten stacked up pretty well, like we were placing teams. I think we still Place teams in the final four and the final game at a relatively similar, clipped other conferences. It's just it gets hate to say it gets down to luck, and just matchups at some point.
But you know, when you did watch it this year in the last couple years, I look at it. I'm just like man. It looks like the Big Ten needs more athletes. I'm curious your view of it is that What you would say, like I always blame the officiating. I think that's a part of it, but it does just seemed like when you saw us play Miami, do
Miami's on a run right now. But the main thing that I left that game with besides just being like, damn it, we lost was like there's just a lot of dudes on Miami where it's like, we just don't have the corollary dude, who can guard him. Yeah, and I don't know if they have if Miami necessarily had better basketball players but there were more athletic and they put more pressure on Indiana you know, especially on their offense. And that's the other thing about
my Maybe that's really funny. Is, I was reading Eamonn Brennan right about this fellow Hoosiers him and Brennan and he said you know Miami probably their defense is probably actually pretty good. They just don't you know they don't need to pressure all the time because their offense is so good and in crunch time Miami those athletes have stepped up puts a pretty good defense, you know, on 45-minute stretches when they needed it. And so Yeah, I just I think that
the athlete problem is real. I think the style of play in the Big Ten is a real difference. That's why the Big Ten ACC challenge was always so interesting is because, you know, you don't know who what style is going to win. I do think the officiating has a huge impact on the style of play in the Big Ten and therefore that style of play in the Big Ten. Winds up retracting. Fewer of those top-end athletes and so it's a cyclical thing.
I think it's a little bit of everything causes this but yeah the Big Ten. It's just different. It is a different you know conference and it's like the SEC says, you know, it just means more or whatever. Well, the big tennis yeah I know it's different. It just is different. Focal lengths to. I mean football to you know, Ohio state every year has Elite level athlete. Michigan has Elite level athletes. That's about it.
You know, everybody else is kind of, you know, a little slower and a little, you know, more plotting and more based on, you know, power instead of speed and And I think that's the same with basketball. Yeah, I it does. And I don't know how we solve that, but yeah, I don't know what the solution is. I think the solution first of all, is to open up the game in the Big Ten. He's the is to the officiating needs to be different.
They need to call actual freedom of movement stuff, instead of, you know, letting guys get mugged or it just needs to become consistent wear a tie on the perimeter is a foul, but mulling a guy in the post is fine. Like you know, it just need. They need to find some level of consistency and they need to rethink what Doing they need to rethink the guys they're bringing into officia games.
Yeah, well it's the thing that I've heard a little bit as people like man you know, it's like just guys in the South you know, the recruitment different like no like that kid for Miami was from Indiana. Like this is what always drives me nuts. I've never been a, you gotta just recruit Indiana, guys. You got to put up a walk and never been that dude, but I do hate it that every year in March. There's always somebody blowing up and it's like, oh yeah, he's from Indiana.
It's like, yeah. Yeah, call guy. It's like this happened this year against Miami. With us, like it's just there's always somebody like Jason, you know, Garner going way back for Arizona is just like there's always always some team blowing up. It's like, oh yeah, I got a kid from Indiana. It's like just let's go after it. Like there are athletes around here that we can go and get. Yeah, but no back to the transfer thing in the final four. I think that the point that I
was making is for IU fans. The idea that, you know, you can transform your team in a season. And I look at this at like, look at Kansas State like look Kansas State. When I I just I think that I don't think this is a fluke. I think it's a sea change that you're going to see. I think I could be wrong. I think the days of like you've got to nail recruiting classes are going away and it's more, you get like let him go somewhere else.
Let him cut their teeth for a year and then it's like, let's see if the Christian Lander is actually good or not and if he's good then we'll get him in the portal and if he's not we'll go get somebody else in the portal and I think you're seeing more and more teams where it's like the dudes are a little bit. Older, they cut their teeth somewhere else. And that's why I look at this all season is so interesting.
Is that if Woodson's able to nail this if it shows good for moving forward, if he can't, he has everything his disposal. If you can't, it's like, I don't I'm gonna get nervous moving forward because I think every year it's more about portal hits than recruiting least. That's how I look at basketball
for the next five or ten years. I mean, it's not bad to get five-star recruits, but I do think there's, you know, we have had a great history at that and I think Some of them, you know, they're more Malik renews than Jalen hitch. If he knows, not knocking, Malik renew, but it's like, he's great. He's going to take some time. I'd rather get them seasoned somewhere else and then go and get the kid like Lowell who now is just crushing it at you.
Crush it at Kansas State. Yeah, I think that I think with this it's got to be I think both are important. I think you have to bring your own guys in and develop them in the system and then you need to supplement that with the guys that are better because Here's the here's the thing about why the transfer portal is working for so many teams, it is easier to integrate a veteran guy into your culture and your program.
Then it is High schooler. And that's because the high schoolers are not just dealing with the change in basketball. The change in speed, the change in all of that, that's a big enough Hill to climb. They're also dealing with going to school and being on their own for the first time. So there's mental stress, these veteran guys were like yeah, done that. And so I do think it's a to and the step up and play like just High School to college.
Yeah, I know it. Yeah, even if they're coming from a smaller school they're dealing with playing D1. Yeah, right. And So what I'll say about it is to what I would like to see more of from Mike Woodson is I feel like he builds teams and he's not building a program.
I feel like he's just sprinkling dudes in and, you know, but the long-term vision is very cloudy and so I would like to see cuz I mean look You've got there are high school recruits that Indiana has to get, I mean there guys, you know? Yeah, but it was a put Inga, he's a, you know, the top 5 recruit in the country and he's in Kokomo. If you can't get that guy like I know they haven't had a great track record necessarily pulling the best guys in Indiana.
Over the last 15 years. I'm tired of Michigan State. Getting all those guys. Yeah you got you gotta get him like there's like there's no excuse for not. I don't care how much ni L money. It takes go get that dude. Like, I watched him play, he's a stud. You can build a team around him for a year, but still you've got up sprinkling, the veteran, you know, guys, I think guards on the perimeter are a huge thing to add because freshman guard struggle.
Look at Purdue down the stretch. Their freshman guards collapsed like a house of cards, all they did. They got pressured played like garbage and Purdue A magical season, quote-unquote fell apart, and so fret. You know, having veteran guards is really important and guards, who have been through Wars before is very important. And if you can, if you don't have to go through the rough times of developing those guys, and you can bring them in. That's a huge bonus, save your Johnson's.
A perfect example. He's a guy who really played well. His first year here, took a little time to adjust and then he was really good down the stretch and would have been really good this year. Do you have any current targets that you think Woodson might go after or guys would like to see? Or is it just is it? Two wide open. I think it's too wide open. You don't know who else is going to enter right now.
So the targets now may shift you know if a better guy comes available also I don't start getting excited about guys until they're on campus visiting because because you know it's you here like well and he's talking to this guy, they're doing an in home and he's doing an in home with 30 guys and then do calls and is like hey you want to come down and he's like
yeah I'm going there. You know she never really know once they're on campus, I think and you're actually seeing Indiana. That's when I start to think about it. The guy that's most heavily. Recruited right now. I mean there, I don't know. He's getting the most attention to the guy who's further songlines Jameson battle. That's an interesting player to me. I don't know if it's a guy.
I you know, go broke for but but he is an interesting player, know he's hurt this year and his number suffered but he's a shot-maker play inside-out can shoot the three. You know, that's that's kind of what Indiana is missing but I'm not it. But again I'm not sure who else is going to come available so they need shooting, they need Athleticism and they need some guys who could do things both
ways. Yeah. Well, it's always, you know, other teams are recruiting them as well, so not like, yes, which is used to pick pick whoever he wants, but I would say and with high school, recruiting with high school credit, you kind of see how the C is the C is changing with those overlap. Many, many months transfer portal a couple weeks, I mean, you know, so it can change
daily. No, it's wild and it's, I understand why they have to do it, but it is nuts that it's going on while the tournaments going on. So there's teams, you know, Obviously guys on San Diego State, maybe if they want to transfer, they're not doing that now. And if you're deep in the tournament, you lose three weeks of a 60-day portal period, but I
get why they do it all. So anytime I can take a shot the and Sibley. I will, you know, again it is, I understand why they do it, but it's like, these kids are still finishing. Their, their theoretical semester of college and like, you're making them to sit decide to leave school while I get should be after the semester ends, if you really gave a shit about their ocean, but the NCAA doesn't soak and resumes. Want them on campus as quickly
as possible to for workouts. And, you know, I mean, it's a whole. Yeah. And but I mean think about it like this, like, yeah, San Diego State. Those coaches may have Targets in the transporter, they're not gonna be able to spend time with her talk to until next week. You know, they're three weeks behind and yeah, you're right. It is a mess. I think their spot. If they are you, if they want to swap out like yeah, I'll call Brian Dutcher.
See if see if he's About that, you know, kind of wrap it up on this. You know, what are your thoughts for, for next season? They obviously had beat you. We're in a nice spot where we could just say, you got to just get better every year. It's like next year, sweet 16 and then like with doing that five years we want to title and we're good. I will answer my question and then give it to you. Like, I look at next year, you know what, what killed Creed Was the Lost of Syracuse.
Sure as hell didn't help but it was the you follow up a sweet 16 with like Hey we're in the wilderness and then you know, wheel goes 2016, we're in the wilderness and you know, you look at it, take the first real Wisconsin for a while. They're just like they're, they're never lower than fifth, but they're always up in that top Echelon. I look at that as like, this is this to me is the goal for Woods. Like we don't need to win a Big Ten title next year. We don't need to do a lot.
To me, it's like you got to be in that 7 8 9 10 seed range for the NCAA tournament. Like you you have to stay in the tournament field. You can't just we barely got in, we got in safely this year or protected seed you don't need to be protected cede territory. But you can't go back on that roller coaster where it's like we were good and then it's like I know a lot of people left but basketball. As I've been saying is different now, so if you don't need.
So that to me, that's where I look at next year. Like, I'm not saying we have to do this or that but to me Only Benchmark, you have to clear as you just have to make the tournament and again, at a school, like Indiana with the ni L base that we have with all the advantages that we have over, like I heard somewhere that Minnesota's entire ni L. They're like, happy they got like 250 thousand dollars for
the basketball team. Much as a whole like we have advantages, you have to be able to keep a level enough playing field where you're getting in the tournament year in year out, even when there is some turnover. So, to me, that's That's what I look at for next year. I'm curious where your head's at. Yeah, success. For me, next year is a comfortable selection Sunday where you're only worried about who you're going to match up with. I think that, that Indiana should have that every single
year with the rare. Once every 10 years, it's a massive rebuild and bunch of guys got hurt and you just maybe we'll make it. Maybe we don't. Oh, hey, we're going to make an IT and build for next year. You know I mean like once a decade that's that's it's not fine but it's understandable things happen. Comfortable selection. Sunday should be every year for Indiana and so that needs to happen next year.
This year I said top four in the Big Ten you know with how mashed together everything was if you finished 7th this year you felt like yeah we could have done better but at the same time we're exactly where everybody else is your kind of in the top tier finishing anywhere to like ninth honestly. But I would say you know, I don't know if you have to compete for a Big Ten title next year. I certainly don't think that's possible, really, but I think you need Need to finish in the top half.
Easily, you do have talent coming back, you know I mean like CJ gun Kayla Banks Malik renew Xavier Johnson. Those are good basketball players and Tamar Bates. If he plays the way he's capable as we've seen in stretches from, they need to develop him into who he supposed to be. I mean, there's a lot of that's on tomorrow's shoulders but a lot of it is on the coaches as well.
Turn him into the player, you know, he can be, I've seen his high school tape I I watched a lot of it and I've seen him in stretches in college where he looks like a really good, really confident scorer, who can score at all, three levels, you got to make him that guy. You had weird is he's an athlete like there is, there's a guy who is that athlete?
Like when he came out, my comparison for him is a little bit more polished, a little less athletic than a Victor Oladipo like he has the long arms, he's got the quickness side to side, he's got that personality that galvanizes people when he's
going. Well, he's the guy who's like, get a Fire the crowd up all of that, he's a little more polished than Victor was coming out and obviously talking about them as high schoolers from yeah not not not with Victor became but he has the potential to be a game-changer for Indiana.
They just have to make him that build them into that and that's on the staff and it's on and it's on tomorrow but it will say that about the staff is you brought him in make him into the guy, you think he's supposed to be so they're going to have good players and and honestly when you stack those players up Individually against some of the Big Ten teams, they're going to be playing individually. They will be more talented.
Especially once you have the transfer portal jukai Newton's coming in and game cups on. I expect them to be freshman next year. I don't expect them to have huge impacts. I think they're for your guys, but, you know, they're talented. And you're going to, you're going to stack Talent up. That's going to be on par with a lot of the Big Ten. Not not the top tier teams, but a lot of the Big 10, you got to win games, and you have to mold
that Aunt into successful teams. And I will say this, if they aren't successful. Next up next, your turns into a dumpster fire, which there's that possibility. Always exists with Indiana basketball. We've seen it a lot over the years. Great season fall off a cliff, we've seen it.
If that happens. I think there's gonna be a lot of questions asked about Mike Woodson and about his, you answered, given his age and given what he had this year and given some of the struggles that have happened in his first two years. If a third year is off the cliff, I think you're going to start asking questions. I, yeah, I don't want to go down. I agree. I agree. And I think he's gonna be like fired. I just think you're gonna start wondering if he's the guy to
stick around for a while. Yeah. Because I think for all of us, we got to one more question. So I want to end on a, we got to come up with a positive way to help us but II, but because I think a lot of us had those same questions. We're kind of soul searching after that loss of Penn State's, and we lost three in a row and it's like, wow. What is going on? Like, and then it turned around team team, won, eight of nine. But I'm with you and that is again, I'll go back to it.
The two things like, if the offense is the same and we just strike out in the portal that really is going to freak me out too and you have a success it's like, okay, you figured out a way but like you've got to be able to navigate the portal and Woodson has look like, I've been saying he's got advantages on his side, like you got to be able to do it and just being like what we weren't prepared, like we lost a lot like, yeah. You're Gonna Lose a lot every year.
Now you knew what are you lose it? By the way you knew you were going to? Yes. Yes ago. You know. None of this is a surprise. Yeah. And you again you also be like hey man. That's took. I took a dude in jail, his fee, know who wasn't really on the radar and he might be a lottery pick like I did that. So if you can't nail the portal this year, it's like, when are
you going to be able to nail it? And again, if the offense doesn't change and why are you not playing Modern basketball when you don't have a trace Jackson Davis? So those things will freak me out. And yeah, it's I think It'll be it's a big. It's a big year next year for that reason. Because if you do kind of fall off a cliff, it's like, all right. We don't have a four-year window to do a rebuild. Like that's what I've always said with Archie as he got a little more time.
Yeah. Because it's like, all right, if if this guy can figure it out we got 20 years like we got a 20-year run and no matter how was it was supposed to be plugging player? Would seduce oldest player. Yeah it's just based on his age and we got five more years with him maybe six that's like so You've got to be able to nail this stuff. We don't have those kind of
window, so I'm with you on that. That next year, if it doesn't go well, it's going to put people and it's just, I really hope that doesn't happen because we just don't need that as a fan base, like, we just, we don't need another coach like I, you know, it's it's, it's it just seems every couple years there, they're doing that. But no, I and again, I'm not saying that Mike Woodson is going to be fired after next year, you know, anything like that.
But I'm saying if it's not if it doesn't go well. Well, and it doesn't look good and it just doesn't fit. You're going to start having high-level donors start asking questions and they were already asking questions this year, Midway through the year and then things turned around and got better. But there are a lot of people wondering. Okay, well, how's it going to? Do, you know, you could say, like, the offense doesn't play the way it's supposed to be because of Tracy exit.
Yeah. Well he also inherited Tracy accent, Davis, you know, and that's that's the flip side of it. And so it's going to be weird seeing this team without that and and playing particular potentially a different offense. I mean Woodson has You know, intimated that it's going to be a different offense so it will
be very interesting to see. I think it's definitely going to be a, there's going to be a large variance in how next year can go. It could be terrible or they could nail the portal and it could be great and it could be sort of the stepping stone to Greatness for Indiana or it could be. Here we go again. You know, with these roller coaster Seasons. Yeah, I will say we talk about the Big Ten needing more
athletes. I joke that we Do have one team that actually did have all the athletes or just poorly coach, that's Michigan. So you look at Michigan, it's like they do have all the athletes. Just have a coach who can't put it together. Absolutely. Totally agree. Right. Anything else before we wrap up? Yeah. I go San Diego State. I guess I this is my hometown boys. I will say that program is really interesting.
When I was in high school, they went around talking to guys, on my club team and a bunch of other club teams. Them to come and walk on because the team was so bad and they were just like, yeah, we need more high-level Walk-Ons. You know, we need better practice players all this. I think my freshman year of college, and I was at USC, San Diego, State won four games and then Steve Fisher came in and I think they won like six his first year.
And it's a really nice program. That is carved out a really nice spot. I'm very happy for everybody involved because in the covid season, they were looking at a one seed and that tournament got canceled. They were They won their first like, 29 games that year were amazing. And they have about four to five guys back from that covid team this year. So it's nice for them to see. I'm very happy for them and also hey they did us all a solid by getting Alabama out of the
tournament. So go Aztecs you are painful to watch but I will root for your Victory. It's not the best corollary because he was like God, he was there way longer than I realized but you know Fisher was there 17 years? Yeah, would would have gone the under on that? Lost big known expecting him to be there that long either and Dutcher was his assistant the entire time so not but let's end on this.
Is there corollary there with a experienced coach like Fisher coming in turning that around and then getting things on the right path that dutcher's able to grow with that? You could do with like Woodson and Indiana because there's something where Woodson again, I don't think we have 16 morning here. So, yeah, I know, I don't know. I don't think what's its knees. Want that either? What's, what do you be like, hell, no.
No, man, I can't walk that long. Well they versus Steve Fisher was hanging out in San Diego. What's this? Gotta I love Bloomington but you know it's you don't live there. Yeah. Fisher was you know heading to the beach with his wife every day? I know where they live. They live like right down the street. Um yeah. So do you live there? It's funny.
I was listening to one of the ringer pods on One Shining podcast or when he I went riding cotton like Bill Simmons on their talk about where brawny might go and he's like they're kicking around like, you know, USC makes sense or Pepperdine is like you You've been it, you live there. I've been out there a couple times. It's like, how does like, why doesn't Pepperdine is why aren't they better like Loyola Marymount? He's campuses are beautiful. Like, why the hell?
I again, come to Indiana, like I love Indian. Yes, go. Are you but how if your Pepperdine has, if those are those know what I am. But here's the campus of, let's go for those who don't know, pepper mines, campus is the most beautiful campus in America. It is, it is in Malibu on the coast. So you're just, you're at a Country Club you go to school at a country club I mean you look at how are they not better UCLA? Like isn't it gorgeous, I hate saying that cause I'm a USC got.
But UCLA USC. You're in the middle of downtown Los Angeles and is this beautiful like Rolling Hills? Beautiful campus? You step one foot off of it and you're in like right now. Yeah, you're what? We're in Downtown LA. It's not as bad as it used to be but it like because that a downtown LA has kind of grown outward and so you're like a couple blocks from Staples Center, you know? I mean you're right they were building that when I was in school Dating myself heavily
there. Um, but you know, I don't know, man. I mean City go State like it's not next to the beach but it's not a bad campus. It's probably 10 minutes, 15 minutes from be able to sit on the beach and do nothing and Pacific Beach and hang out. And, you know, you're right about that. Like, I'd certainly rather be there than Kentucky, or, you know, Alabama, or Arkansas or some of these other schools to
get top level players. I mean, I think if you can get kids on visits out here, you're gonna get them. I do and and you can, do you think the Pepperdine campus is better than if you go to Arc? If you go to Arkansas to have muscle and taking your shirt, taking his shirt off, and then it's like it's much better now, using the view, as much better
effort. I know I used to do basketball camps here, Lorenzo Romar. You City basketball camps when he was the coach at Pepperdine. He be like, you guys are gonna grow up, you do you visit Pepperdine and you're not going to leave and I visited Pepperdine once and I was like, I do not want to leave Was correct. So yeah, it's I don't know. I mean, there's stuff like that out here. Like, why would guys go to Gonzaga over Pepperdine? I don't, you know, like it that
tradition. That's the only reason they win. That's it. So but there's a corollary there where, you know, maybe Indiana with Woodson has that with what Fisher. Sure is done. Fisher started and then, you know, Dutchess kept going at San Diego State. Yeah, I think that's a more of a better comparison than, you know, a lot of people compare to join. And Howard going back to Michigan and not having college experience.
I mean Fisher was, yeah, he wanted Michigan, but it's an older guy sort of putting his stamp on a program and rebuilding in his way. I think it is a fair comparison. Wasn't your right does not have that Runway that Steve Fisher because it was such a bad program. He could have a bunch of bad years, do whatever he wanted. He didn't really, he was pretty successful, pretty early on, I mean, especially comparative to what had been The past. So there's also less scrutiny in that situation.
So but what's it's gonna have a lot of scrutiny and and but he's got to do a quick man. I mean like he's you know, this can't be a lingering thing where they're just above five hundred next year and that. No, but next year will be good but Hereafter will be good, will be good. And then you know, you get what you got this year, which was a good season, not a great student. There needs to be a great season of Indiana basketball soon. People are losing it with this. Program.
There needs to be something to hold onto or something, to talk about. If it's not Yogi, Ferrell, hitting a step back three at Iowa. I mean, that's the last memory that we have, that is like, yes, that isn't an individual accomplishment memory. It's a team memory and that was seven seasons ago, so I'm not a positive. Know, I know you doing. I'm just it's true. There is there is an upside here. The upside is Indiana, has an opportunity to build a roster. This offseason deal, the
transfer portal. Got a bunch of open spots transfer portal. You've got some talent coming back. There is a huge opportunity for them. They got a nail it. That's the upside. That's the happiness to end on. They've got to nail it but there is an opportunity here that plenty roster spots to bring in some good players. Yep. They do Ryan a pleasure if we can keep going forever. But let's catch up before next season. Ryan and catch my assembly.
Call the big lead.com. When thank you, guys all for listening, we'll be doing more kind of postseason Recaps as we go along. And then when we report on news happens, Has will be here like a week late as in pure Crimson cast fashion. So thank you guys all for listening for Ryan. This is Scott for Crimson cast signing off.