Ep 740 - Jerod Morris from The Assembly Call

Hi folks, welcome back to Crimson cast or possibly you haven't left. Like, you could probably go an entire day just doing straight podcast with gaalan and myself. I'm joined by the host and the founder of assembly called Jared Morris Jared. It is an honor to have you on my friend and it is good to be here.

It's good to be a we were just talking Going about how, you know, like everybody in the IU podcasting space, we all have our roles to fill, you know, it's like us over the assembly call like during the season, you know, games end. All right. You know, even if it's a bad game, you guys got to step up. You got to put some content out there. That's your role. When there's a coaching change, we turn to you guys.

And you do not disappoint because this is an amazing amount of content in a very short period of time. I mean, unfortunately we do this too often, like we're getting too good at this, my hope is true. This is the last time you hear from Crimson cast for 20 years No, it's I want to start off. Like I have always so impressed with what you guys do especially in Seasons. Like this a Gala, my joke, like the end of the creamy are, we're just like, alright, we're done podcasting for a year.

Like, let's take a break, you guys bang it out. I mean, none of us are doing this full-time, obviously, like this is a passion project but I'm like goddamn like these tight games against Northwestern and losses to Rutgers like the last thing I would want to do is podcast for an hour and a half. And yet you guys do it you're always positive which I She ate. So my hats off to you guys. Thank you. It is. It's certainly harder than

others. And I actually, you know, I can't take a whole lot of credit for this season because I was out a lot this season just had some well, I know. Yeah we moved and, you know, had a baby and had some work thing so my availability at nights just wasn't as much.

And so, I certainly tip my cap to Ryan and coach, and Andy, and all the folks that we had step in and fill in, I mean, you and Galen filled in and so, it was huge because it's that schedule can get a little bit daunting and And frankly, as we all know in a season like this, there's just there's a little bit less enthusiasm to talk about the team. It's not as much fun. But, you know, this for this is what we do is I you fans, as you said, you know, it's a passion

thing. And, you know, we kind of made a commitment to ourselves and to the audience that we're going to do it and it's going to sound weird and hokey I know. But I also kind of feel like we have a commitment to the team to do it because it's like if we were just like our not going to do a show that's like a just the tacit complete disapprove.

I won't abandon of the team, at least, that's kind of how we look at it. You know in our thing is always been, you know, no matter how bad it is, we still want to support the guys, and that's how we support as we come up there and have a show and have a place for people to gather after the

games. So, you know, it's one of those things out, but I think that that kind of stuff and the way that we all kind of view our roles in it and and I you podcasting community and all that it's part of what makes Indiana basketball special, you know. So I I'm glad we all do it. I love you, man. It's so positive. I love your outlook, like you answer my question is like how do you kind of go through it? Not that anybody cares, how we do the thing?

But you know what? It's I'll ask you anyway. Like what is it like these last couple of months as you've been doing it? Like how do you stay positive? Like I know Alex bows. It's from one of his podcasts was talking about, you know, It's just tough doing his five takeaways because it's like the same five things every single time, you know, how do you do it? Because Gail and I definitely don't like we kind of plug in and out. We come in we kind of Garber is

going to pitch for a while. Like you're you're doing something structured and your base having to say the same thing over and over again, and you stay positive. Well, it's a very conscious effort. I will say, and I actually there were times I thought this season, just speaking for myself, personally that I felt like I lost some of that and got really focused on the negativity of the play, and look in the play warranted it. So it's a delicate balance. You can't just go on there and

say, everything's great. When it's, not because no one wants to listen to that. That, but you also have to be fair. And remember the humanity of the people? So I've always thought my background with my dad being a coach helps with that, you know, because you you recognize that, even if a performance is absolutely terrible, there was a lot of effort that actually went into making that performance good. It just didn't work out, you know, but that doesn't.

That doesn't make that effort meaningless. It just makes it unsuccessful. And so, why are we here? Are we here just to accumulate wins and losses as a fan base or we here to go through ups and downs?

It's together with a team that we support, you know, and so, and I always that word support, I think is important and I think as we've done this, I've tried to make a conscious effort, also to develop some relationships with some parents of players on the team because I think it helps me remember, just stay grounded with like, these are real people. You know, these are these are guys, with, with moms and dads and, you know, and and and, and struggles that they're going

through on and off the court. And let's remember that. That because it's not I guess I just always look at it. Look, if you're only here for the wins and losses, go cheer for a protein it's about more. I really think I feel like it's

about more than that. Now the wins and losses matter, it's probably the most important thing, but it's also the fact that like, you know, we all went to IU and these guys are we didn't play basketball at IU, but their students, like, we were in there's a certain part of it, where you're kind of watching them, go through some of the similar things that you did at least in terms of maturing and that kind of stuff, and let's be in this together and help each other work through

it. So I know it's hokey and it's Us. But that's just the mindset that I've always taken with it. And I think it's it helps us maintain perspective. I think when perspective is difficult to maintain. No I think it's very Zen.

I like it. But it is I mean it's it is kind of you know, I'm much more, the Ranter getting pissed but I feel like I'm always grounded in. I'm not, you know, I know your your dad was a coach with my thing is always been like, you know, in college the coaches, the adult, the coaches, the one getting paid like to me, they're the ones that take the accountability. Not the nineteen eighteen year old kids, who Aren't getting, and I think this year was a

really good example. I've talked about him a lot of hate picking on him but like it was it's tough seeing like the season Rob fennessy had because you see this kid who? Again, he's a kid. We've all been there in college and it's a weird time and like he's struggling from confidence. Like, I don't think he understands kind of why is it working? It's not working.

But I've always been like, I don't want to sit here and just rail on a 20, year old kid who's obviously, having a rough go of it. Like it's the coach's job to see that and find create a system that's going Make it more successful but I'm with you like that is why you know watching like Victor Oladipo blossom into who he became at IU was was awesome. He was seeing guys come through who you love? Like I still remember my wife. Loved. Oh gosh.

I'm thinking Daniel Jones. It's not, it was the little little point guard. Daniel more Daniel Moore. Thank you. Thank you. I'm getting old, I'm over 40 my wife anymore, but just see guys like that. Who you you feel like you get to know them and I guess it brings us to this.

This is something as we look back at the Archie, are I want to give you time to kind of reflect on it for our audience but one thing that's been brought up in a lot of the podcasts I've been listening to obviously wins and losses mattered and there's you know, a sub 500 Big, Ten record like so what I'm kind of starting with the fluff, not the the meat of it and he got fired because he wasn't winning enough games.

Yeah, that said this, what's kind of been going through all of these podcasts is There was a real lack of connection between Archie and the fan base and a lot of these players in the fanbase, it didn't Archie never handled himself in a bad manner but it was very cool. And I remember early on, with cream like he did, like the dance parties, like he did a

thing after homecoming one time. Where like, you wash a practice, everyone go on the court, and just go meet Korean, like, get on the court, and it felt very approachable there at the beginning. Again, I don't think this is why he got fired, but I do think it's an interesting time as we look back at this Archie era, it felt very Disconnected.

I would say like it felt like almost like watching a pro team and that it was just like a bunch of guys playing basketball not very well and I never felt like we got a connection to any of these guys like the Romeo experience was kind of like and I guess those are five star, guys. I get it there in and out. But you know, at least felt like I had some kind of connection to Eric Gordon when he was here, like Romeo's, kind of in and out, I don't know.

What do you, what do you think about that? Well, I do think it's easy to kind of look at that as being fluff, but I'm not really. That it is, I think it was actually a really important reason why it didn't work for Archie Millard. Indiana. Not, you know, not that the that the coach has to have like this specific relationship with Indiana fans, but you got to have a relationship with Indiana fans, you know.

And I think this is probably the lesson to be learned from this higher which is that Archie Miller checked every or most basketball boxes you would want. He had had a deep tournament run, he had one Conference titles. He had a good basketball. Pedigree Degree he had played like, that's why most of us were excited about the higher because you had all that stuff up and it's like this makes a lot of

sense. But yeah, I remember back to his first press conference and a lot of us have spent time harkening back to that first press conference and reflecting on it because everything sounded good. And then as you look back on it for years later you realize and you know, I know Tony drawing. You talked about this with you and wrote about it on his site.

You look back on it and so many of those promises are unfulfilled and I One of those was Archie's discussion of really being comfortable in the neighborhood and I think by that he was referencing kind of the expectations. But part of that, part of those expectations is Galen has used the phrase. You're almost like a religious leader. It's ridiculous.

It's also kind of true and that's never a role that Archie really felt comfortable in, you know, opening himself up to build that relationship with fans but I don't think. And the reason why I think that actually mattered for on-court Success because look at, He had one, he could have kept his distance. He could have had a cool relationship with Indiana fans and we would have filled in the gaps in a positive way. With Crimson colored glasses and

it all would have been fine. But we know that we can say it was different that would be different. It wouldn't have been where, I think it was actually an issue is that I think his inability to build relationships with fans, was actually indicative of one of the Fatal flaws of his program at Indiana was an inability to develop good

relationships with players. And I think, you know, part of what we saw with, you know, a lack of Development with, you know, sometimes guys playing hard in a game but still kind of missing that next level where it's like, wow, these guys just don't feel like they're totally bought into. They don't feel like they're really enjoying what they're doing. They don't feel like they really understand what their roles are. They they seem disconnected.

Part of that I think is being disconnected from the coach, you know. And I think and and you know that's something that I've heard from from a lot of people I was I'm not there in the locker room and you know, that kind of stuff. We don't know that but when you hear, It enough, you know, that there was a lack of relationship building between head coach and player, that's a red flag.

And I think that makes it hard for the head coach to really understand his players and get the most out of them. And then it makes it hard for the coach to coach you hard. You know, what a big deal was made about when Tom Izzo like yelled at, Aaron Henry, you know?

And then screamed at him in a game, that's like, oh my God, what is Tom Izzo doing, it's like anybody who really knew what was going on. It's like, all right, you know, Tom Izzo has a great relationship with that kid and he's probably going to respond to it. He knows the guy can Take that. So let's just let some time play out, what's happened, Aaron? Henry has become awesome. You know? And that's that to me is the

difference. Like, I don't think we were ever ever able to see that and the only thing that really makes sense to me for why that didn't happen is. I'm just not sure that the relationships were there. And so the relationship with fan base, that's one thing, it matters, but it doesn't contribute to wins and losses. But I think some of those, some of those relationships with players as we start to just wonder like man, why didn't guys develop, why did we see some of the things that we do?

Do I think that's one of the things that you look at? And the irony of it is, I remember when Archie was hired, he did an interview with somebody, you know, because he actually made the rounds and doing podcast when he was hired not a lot of local podcast. But National podcast, I was always a pet peeve of mine for obvious reasons but you know, someone asked him. What, what was what did you

really take from Thad Matta? You know coaching under Thad Matta and he talked about how the biggest thing he learned from Thad. Matta was the importance of relationships and sometimes you got to take it off the basketball court and build close relationships with players.

Thinking, then this guy gets it out, you know, I was so excited to hear him say that but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't seem like that's actually what happened in in the Indiana, you know, in his four years in Indiana, and that's disappointing. But also, I think it helps to fill in the gaps for why the guy checked all the boxes seem to have all the basketball Acumen and some of those things, Why

didn't it? Work so much of coaching comes down to relationships in Psychology and I'm just not sure that he was able to get that part of it, right? No, I agree and it's something. Thing that we've talked about kind of ad nauseam this year, but this, it's just been odd. Watching a team have such little confidence and you could see it like the Rutgers games are perfect examples. Where, you know, we went on a little, the game in the Big Ten Tournament, you know, we went on a run, we get up.

I like I don't know, six or seven points and we're like, all right the whole team's like all right. Sweet. And kind of like, alright, we're done. And you saw Rutgers like they just kind of called timeout, like the brought them back together. It's like, they come back out to the car. We took a punch. We're going to take it back and then Rucker. Goes on a run and then it's like we're done.

It's like we just every time a team would go on a run against us. We would just crumble and it just felt like this team, had a confidence crisis and it never felt like Archie. Could just have that moment where he could either yell at him or he just couldn't push the right buttons and maybe he didn't find the buttons.

But you'd see it both in micro and macro like in games it would just you kind of see them just crumble and like I don't know what to do and kind of looks so timid and unsure of what to do and, you know, make odd Mistakes like you know a minute and a half to go or down by for their walking, the ball up and Archie's like bring, you know yelling to bring it up faster.

It's like again I these guys know how to play basketball like they understand the time on the clock but they're making all the wrong decisions that you see in the macro where, you know, once they got on a losing streak, they would just get on a losing streak and they lose four or five in a row and it's like they would just be rolling downhill the wrong way. And yeah, I mean it's hard and you you look at the shooting numbers like, Who could shoot in high school.

Then come here and they can't shoot, and they can't shoot free throws. And that is that is just all mental. Like I quoted all the time. I love my dad always being like, why don't they just practice free throws? Like I I'm sure hard. She's doing that and I'm sure the kids are doing it. Like I'm sure they want to shoot and they want to shoot better, but there's something missing there.

And yeah, it kind of has to come down to mental because it's either that or the other explanation is like, they're just not trying or Archie's not doing anything, which I don't think, is the case I think, Yeah, I think we've all said, like, our chinos basketball. I think we all kind of agree. We're we're, I'm expecting Archie to get another job and be

successful somewhere else. Like it just I think he'll take the lessons here but maybe it was just like these connections and confidence is kind of what just was never able to get anybody going and look, you know, Dustin to P Rach laid out in the podcast that he did some of the, some of the bad luck that Archie dealt with. And there was some of that there were untimely injuries and you know, there were some different things that happen there. That's not that doesn't explain

everything. Nor does it change the calculus of why? He needed to go. But it does explain some of it. I think. Also some of it was just poor evaluations on the recruiting Trail, you know? I mean I mean to cut you off but that's my job. But on the bad luck, on the bad luck piece know, I've said this before, like it's very much on

the margins. If you just look through his years, you know, 2018, they had a four-game losing streak in the end of the season, a three-game losing streak like you win one game in each of those streaks. It's your you're above 500, the conference, you're probably in the tournament, your first year, you know, 20 and the bad luck and the bad luck. Doesn't just come from the losing. It comes from, they had to play some of those games without key

players, you know? And, and that, that's kind of where that where the bad luck comes in. You know, you recruit a guy like Jerome Hunter, who was a really highly rated recruit and his, you know, his entire career has kind of been this up-and-down thing and dealt with a big health issue. So you know, should you've been able to suss that out and recruiting? I don't know probably not but you know, there were There instances of you, take the DU musée Anderson recruitment.

For example, look, I was excited about that when it happened, the guy score 2,000 points in South Bend he was known as a good shooter. We needed that seemed like the kind of, you know, tall guy who could be, you know, six seven, you know, long seemed like he could be taught how to play in the pack line defense, it just didn't work and so on the one hand, you can look back at that and say, well, this guy had offers from other people. He was a top 100 recruit.

You can't really fault Archie for recruiting him. But yeah, you kind of can because you don't just get cover because a guy is ranked a certain place as a recruit, you know, Wisconsin got dmytryk Trice, as an example. He was like the 300 or 400 rated recruit, right? Well, they saw something in him developed him, he fit the

system. He was a good recruit, you know, just because you take a guy in the top 100, if it doesn't work out, you do have to allow for some of it you know, not all guys are going to work but you can't just make a blanket statement like well the guy was a top 100 in state recruit so you had to take him. No you had to take.

Him if he's the right fit and you had a vision for his development and it works out, you know, if you don't that is kind of the coach's job to evaluate independent of rankings and all the other stuff. Is this guy going to fit is the if it with me from a personality standpoint, does he fit our culture? Is he going to be able to develop? And again you give some allowance for mrs. Here there.

But I think there were too many of those in the Archie Miller are aware whether it was a misidentification of the talent on the front end or an inability to develop it on the back end there was too much Much disconnect there and again, X's and O's are important. All the other stuff is

important. There is maybe no more important job for a college basketball, coach than the players that you hand-select to come into your program and then being able to develop them to maximize what they can do, which again, kind of comes back to the relationship part of it.

And so, you know, that's the stuff that look and look, you know, part of that may have been that, you know, some of the assistance on Archie's first staff weren't helping them out very much and we're giving them some bad evaluations, you know? But you're the head coach and you hired those guys And the buck ultimately stops with you. So it is I think it is interesting parsing some of this stuff and trying to figure out

what happened. Ultimately it all ends up coming to Archie's doorstep and you end up with a certain record after four years and however, whatever the explanation is the record wasn't good. The trajectory moving forward, wasn't good. You know, so Scott Dawson's hand. I mean they're basically tied at that point assuming that you have a good alternative in mind, you know, he did what he had to do. Ya know. And, you know, it's all on the margins like one or two wins during any of these losing

streaks in his four years. They probably, it's good enough to get going. I would say the other piece of not bad luck but just tough luck is you know, the the year you know, Archie gets three in a row. Indiana mr. Basketballs and they you know Jackson Davis has been fantastic. Romeo was I was really good at what he did but you didn't have one of those transformational you like, Zach Randolph, or Greg Oden, or are Gordon like just an absolute superstud that comes

around. Like Archie, just kind of missed the window of of having like one of those guys be in Indiana. Mr. Basketball while he was getting Indiana. Mr. Bass was kind of like getting the number one pick in the NBA like the sixth 76ers. The process may have worked better. If Tim Duncan was a first-round pick because I posed like Nerlens Noel. So I think there's some of that but I also like when you take A big step out. I think that mean obviously the

right move was made. I was calling for it. But you know, you look at like when it works it works. And like what do you see? What Brad Underwood is doing it?

Illinois. It's kind of like, you know, when you see it, you know, it it's like you don't even have to dig into the numbers like, alright that's working like he's got something Hamid over there, you know, Holtman at Ohio State and I truly believe the wheels were in motion, but I think that having those two teams play in the Big Ten championship game and being like, hey those two coaches were hired the exact same time as Archie. E and look where these two

programs are on page to be single-digit, seeds in the tournament. They're both playing in the Big Ten Tournament final and Rutgers to because pikul was hired around that time to you know it's a great one workers house just three times. I think that that's hard to look at that and be like, all right well you know but we're good enough to you know we got to keep our coach because of echo because of 18 different reasons. Why it's like in the end is kind

of like hey man stuff shit. You make a lot of money and there are everyone's got injuries. Everyone's got recruiting this as a Your job is to how do you smooth the edges and get things moving in the right direction. So yeah one last thing that I want to that I want to add on this on you know in the Archie era is it look personally I was out after the first Purdue game this year that was like that was

like my personal breaking point. You know you lose the Purdue again at home kind of non-competitive that was like my point of no return I've been questioning it up to than that was my point of no return but you know as I reflect on it you know Oh, I think I'm always going to have, it'll be interesting to see what Archie does from here. And I'll never like wonder if Archie was the right fit long term in Indiana, we saw four years.

He wasn't there's always going to be this little small part of me. You know, the small part of me that that supported our chief for several years and was interested in how his system would adapt to the Big Ten and, and work, it Indiana that wonders.

I wonder what this would have looked like if we actually got to see Archie Miller basketball, because when you look back on his four years at it, Anna the frustration and I think especially the frustration for people who really supported him in the beginning is you know those first couple years things aren't going well, but it's like okay but you look back at his team's at Dayton once he builds that this is going to work because they played with Pace, they shot the 3-pointer.

Well, they were guard driven teams. Like they played a more modern style of basketball. It was tough, it was gritty but it was combined with good defense, which all right, I don't know if this system is really up for modern basketball, but it's working over at Virginia and maybe if we rallied at it, it can really work here and we just never saw it and I'm especially disappointed by how we didn't see it on the offensive end.

And, you know, you look at those date and teams, they played a lot of outside in and here at Indiana. He had these for rosters where you looked at it and his most the player on his roster that had the best combination of

skill and experience. Every single year was a big guy and so he made this choice to kind of invert his offense play, inside-out, and To like this really extreme degree, where it always felt like, the guards felt hamstrung, like they had to get the ball inside and could never get into their own Rhythm. You know, I think part of the shooting issues that we saw was guards who were almost like playing the old Hoosier style where it's like four passes before shot.

You've got to get the ball inside before shot and we became the kings of passing up a good shot early in the shot clock to get a worse. One near the end of it because especially once team started doubling down and we never were able to adjust. And I just, I wonder You know, it always felt like a program that was out of its comfort zone

and disconnected. And I wonder if that just trickled down from the top where Archie is, suddenly coaching this, this system where he's going inside out and he'd been a coach at Dayton, that was so much more guard oriented. And it just, it just always felt disconnected.

And it's almost like he didn't necessarily know, or at least, he didn't show the ability to really adjust, or to get the guards playing in a comfortable way in the system, you know, and so, and I think back to McKinley, right, Who wanted to come with Archie when he had him committed to Dayton, wanted to come with Archie. You know, we had all the roster issues the beginning, so he wasn't able to he goes to Colorado, becomes one of the best for your point, guards in

the country. How does that change it? You know, again, it doesn't mean that it would have changed everything. I just kind of remain curious, the part of me the first two years. That was excited about Archie. Remains curious about what that might have looked like, I don't know, but it'll always just kind of be a little, kind of, be a lingering wonder. And I'm sure that that lingering wonder will.

Well, immediately dissipate very much once we have a new coach, but as we kind of sit here in the fog of the end of his era, that's the one thing that I wonder because there was a real reason to be excited about him and it's disappointing that we never saw that on the court. No, I agree. And I you know, the way that I look at it too that I think is an interesting. Just a cautionary tale as well. Is, you know, I've often wondered this. I've not said this out loud before.

I wonder if Archie, didn't want to get Romeo. And what I mean by that is, You know, that was very early in his spot that was a high-profile like that was Romeo like the Indiana guy, but it's like a five-star. It's like we pinned all of our hopes on that and it was so

early in his career. You know, an Archie had been used to building kind of with guys off the periphery or guys who were two or three stars guys, with something to prove, we all know a five-star like Romeo is a different kind of guy to coach. And it always felt like, from that point on Archie, didn't quite know how and again, he knows more than I do, but the way the offense ran was kind of

like All right. Well, I have to run everything through Romeo and Romeo is getting 30% of possessions and it became Romeo and Juliet on Morgan and then same thing with Tres Jackson Davis. Like all right, well I got this guy and so now I got to run everything through him and I do wonder if you know the the thing that crean kind of got lucky with his, he got a lot of those kind of great building block pieces, like he got Jordan holes.

He got Christian Wofford, he got Maurice Creek for while he was here and healthy. We kind of built the team and then it's like, now, I'm going to Zeller into this and now you got all these extra pieces and everyone who their Partners like I'm gonna throw and then Oladipo turns into him, but it's like that team was built as a complete team you know? And Archie never really got that chance because a year or two. And again I'm not trying to defend them or say it's his

fault but you're too. It's like you got Romeo and that you can't run an offense. That Romeo is not getting the ball. That's almost it looked like Archie didn't quite know how to how do I run my offense and how do I make a five-star guy? Happy? I'm just going to make him super happy and what the irony of all of it. As I've said, Many times is by pumping the ball into Jackson, Davis this year and just turning him into a post guy with no outside moves, you've diminished

his draft stock. You've done the worst thing you made your offense stale. You've you've used you given him great usage rate but you've diminish his draft stock like I hate to say it Jackson Davis look. So this is probably like well shit. I should've just gone to like Kentucky caught lap lobs for a year. None of these things of my game would be noticed and I'd be in the NBA right now to be a

first-round pick. It's like that's the weird irony of Archie, as I'm, not sure, he knew had a coach five stars, but he ended up creating an offense that featured them so much, that it kind of diminished both Romeo and Trace Jackson Davis has NBA stock. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. You know, I think him force-feeding Trace to the extent that he did is what made trace an All-American. You know, like like Trace Jackson Davis is a good talented player.

I like Tres a lot. He did a lot as a freshman and a sophomore, you can tell that there's going to be a but coming here. Here. But, you know, I think it's fair to say that on a really good Indiana team. Trace Jackson. Davis is a third option, you know, he's just he's a limited player so on a really good team. He's probably your third option on a really mediocre Indiana team.

He was the best player that you ran everything through and he was able to accumulate numbers, but not at a real efficient rate because he just doesn't have the breadth of skills. Now if he stayed for a couple of years and continued to develop his skills, maybe he becomes that guy.

But this just goes back to our conversation of you know, the roster because The best player on this roster, you know, so I don't think you need to force-feed him quite as much as we did and that might have been a problem with getting the guards going. And I think that's why things really took a downturn when Armand Franklin left, because he was the other guy that could really handle a higher usage

rate. And once he got hurt, now, you really didn't have any other place to turn, but to your point about Romeo and we can probably make this. The last point on Archie is I do agree? Like, I think in hindsight, it does, you know what you said? Is kind of true like it. It does kind of feel like he didn't quite know how to handle that situation. And that's just further proof that it's not, right?

Because if you can't at any point in your tenure, you know, assimilate one of the best high school basketball players in Indiana into what you're doing and make it successful. You shouldn't be the coach at Indiana, you know? Because like there's going to be Romeo's that come around and you need to be able to land them as recruits and you need to be able to incorporate them into a winning system of basketball.

And if you can't do that, You know with maybe one exception here, there you just you're not the right guy and so I think our cheese going to succeed much better at a lower level school where the spotlight isn't as bright and where you're right,

he's recruiting more hunger. Not that our guys aren't hungry but there is you know, the guys that kind of have a chip on their shoulder their overlooked and the he might be at that just might might relate better because I think he's got a pretty narrow subset of players that he relates with, because he doesn't seem like a great relationship. A ship Builder. But he was kind of a overlooked chip on your shoulder, kind of guy, and he probably relates

really, well, with that. Type of guy, does he relate really well with the guy who's, you know, his, remember, his brother. Sean was like, this highly rated recruit. It was like doing dribbling drills on late night, TV shows and stuff, you know, so he kind of had more attention. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it makes more sense that he is related better with higher rated recruits and done. Better at Arizona that are cheated here. We're getting into too much pop

psychology here. Yeah, but it, but that kind of stuff is interesting because whether Right, or wrong on that and I have no idea that stuff does actually matter, you know? And so, and that just seems like part of it, that, that Archie was never quite able to get. And I hope he's able to get it at the next spot because he's a good coach. And I think he'll succeed. He just wasn't the right coach for Indiana. Yeah, I agree. The last thing I'll say I'm Tres Jackson.

Davis is just I agree. He's limited but I do wonder if he's limited because of the scheme. I mean the fact that he was here two years and never took a three-point shot, some of that's on him, but some of that is obviously the way they're playing. Dude, I've seen the way kids play basketball the way NBA players play basketball, everyone loves jacking up, threes. So I have a really hard time believing that race doesn't want to jack a couple up.

So I think it's possibly scheme as well, but let's I think we can put that to bed. You know, farewell Archie. It's been fun. You know, now we're moving forward. Hasn't been fun. Scott. Not really no. I mean, because you mentioned, you mentioned your, your moment this year, I will say and if you go back and listen Of the podcast, you know, 2019 during that Romeo Season where we lost like 11 of 12 games. That's where I first.

Got the not like, we got to fire him, but the first twinge of like, something's not right here. Like this, is this a massive disappointment this year? Like, the lights are bright. Everyone's fired up about Romeo. You get just boat raced by Duke. It's like, okay, Duke is good, but then you just, you just fall apart in the middle of the Big Ten season. Like this is not good. And I never, I never gained my confidence back. And that was always, my problem is, I kept on coming back to

that year. There was injuries Romeo's for I guess there's a lot of stuff but it's like you underperform so much that year that I was never able to get back. And then just the idea of like well hey we're going to make an 11 seed this year. I was always like, well, but your it's math. Like if you're -5 you don't just get to add 3 and be like, all right, we're good. Like you need to add 10, like you got to do way above and now we're at even and now we're going to go up from there.

That was always my problem. So no, it wasn't fun. It was You know, we're going to and what's interesting? We're gonna look back and this is going to be kind of a weird blip in history like where we go from here. Hopefully it's going to be gentle so maybe it's not but this is going to be kind of a as I've said many times like I don't know what the highlight of this era is but at least with the Creed are, it's like all right like that was that was like doing speed like that was fun.

Like we I like I got track marks. I got a really good time. Like I woke up a couple couple Seasons. I Woke up had no idea what happened the year before. Like nothing happened. Like it was, it was crazy manic, you know. Yeah. The the time Green Arrow was a meth in the arch area was NyQuil. Yeah, I know exactly. And you Davis at least you had a couple highs. It's like you're coming off. The like every every other area has like something. You can talk about the our chair is like yeah.

Like I don't know. So Dolson makes this move and the breaking news here on Crimson cast, you haven't heard Dolson bought out Archie. Miller got the money that the sequence of events is interesting, but we kind of hash That out. I'm very happy with what Dolson is doing. I'm curious to get your take, but I will also say that I've said this a bunch of times, the way that things are happening in the way that Dolson is doing

this. That's what I continue to come back to it. To me, it Narrows the number of candidates to a very small number of people because you just don't if your dolphin in my mind, you don't act this way, unless you feel like you're got somebody great in the hopper, which we'll talk about. And you also, Don't just act this confident. If you're going to do this, to get another mid-major coach kind of like Archie. Like you would definitely slow play your hand a little bit

more. Dolson is playing this like he's got pocket aces I mean he's just like dude I got pocket aces, I'm all-in. Bring it. I'm so excited about the Scott Dolson era. I think, you know, I think Fred glass did a wonderful job of rebuilding the foundation and you know, love his focus on, you know, student athletes and Mental health and, you know, kind of putting them first in a sense, the, the facilities upgrades, like all the things that happened, right?

Like it really felt like things were decaying in a lot of ways and it felt like Fred glass, like didn't just put Band-Aids on it, but kind of rebuilt, a lot of things during his era. You know, that's why we're seeing so much success and some of the other sports, you know, but it's still kind of felt like, all right, you know, we kind of rebuilt things, but this is still kind of like the old Indiana, you know, and we've rebuilt thing. Cause we're back to like being,

you know. Okay. But now it's like Scott Dolson is taken over and and basically said, boys, we're stepping up to the plate. Like we are. It's like he's left, kind of the, the green room and is like he's going into the big boy room right now, you know? And the Tom Allen extension was the first step in that. I mean that is a that's a that's a that's the move that a big-time program makes you know

where it's like. We believe in this guy for glass made a great decision to hire him as the coach from people disagreed with it. Scott, Dolson comes in and is like I'm doubling down. This is our guy. We're going to commit to him and we're going to let everybody know that we're committing to him. That's what a big-time program does.

It's not what Indiana has done and I think it's the same thing here with this higher, or we don't know the higher yet, but at least with this move with Archie, right? Which is look, I could Keep him. There's an argument to keep him, right? It's a pandemic. There's lots of different issues you had more cover this issue. A block ever had. Like what would have been the? You had so much cover to do what I you normally does.

Yes, he could have. And instead, he said, you know what, like Penn State would have kept our Chi, you know, like that's that's the move that a program with Penn State's basketball expectations would have done, you know, but this is Indiana. So we've got to make a move and I think you're right. Part of that is having the plan in place beforehand and, you know, kind of having a very short list of people that you are going to do everything to

get. Like I don't know how this hires going to go. I really don't or who you know or who we're going to end up with. But I'm going to be shocked, surprised I'm going to be surprised, if it's not someone that we are really, really excited about. And if it's not someone that were really, really excited about. I'm not going to be wondering. You know, did we lowball them? Like, is it this that of the other?

Like I'm going to feel pretty good that we took our best shot and if the guys that we're going after saying, no, I'm not going to be like, you know what the hell Dolson I'm going to be like. Alright. Well let's figure out why they said. No, but man, we gave it our best shot. Apparently, there was something about it. That didn't work. Let's figure it out like a. I'm not going to feel like a sense of regret like we did it

wrong. I have a lot of faith in the process that he's going through here and I think it's going to turn out in a really, really positive. Of way. Yeah so is a guy who you know there's an NBA coach that we haven't talked about yet so we'll bring it up now. Like I think you know Erik Spoelstra is on everyone's mind. He coaches the heat. I think you could come here now. I'm totally kidding. I know, dr. Rivers is the one that you meant. Yes, yes, I want Nate McMillan.

This listen spring McMillan up, not me Brad Stevens. Like let's, let's go to. I've been joking. Like, we're, I made a podcast to have fun like I'm not a real journalist. Let's let's talk about it. Thanks it took us 39 minutes to get here. No one's still listening. They're just waiting for the ground, Stephen stuff. And we gate, we make sure we put a timestamp in the descriptions of people know. They can skip ahead to the Brad Stevens stuff. That's right. I'm ready, buddy.

Wants to listen to you right now. I'm writing that down right now but I will say this, you know, I don't have sources, but I've a lot of people I talk to and it's always been doing never happening. Like, Steve is never come, that's always been the line is. Like it's just the timing wasn't going to line up. It's never going to work once Dolson made this move. I started hearing like the it was different this time.

It's like, well there's a 5% chance like I don't know, it's one in a million or 1 1 in 1,000 that's already hearing. And it's like that, you know, 5% 10% like it's not, it's not illogical, probably not going to happen. Which is way different than just know. And then as this has gone on things are just there's just there's smoke everywhere now. I'm seeing it from a brad Stevens that you always talk about, you know, crimson color

glass. I'm seeing this from Brad Stevens colored glasses, like I'm viewing it in here and by the way, I hate the national thing of like you guys just think you're going to get sick, who cares? Like this is why it's fun to be a fan. Like this is why it's good times, but if you view everything under the guise of Brad, Stevens has some Interest in this, it all makes sense. Like this is the way. Dolson would play it. If you, if I'm Dolson, I feel like I have a shot to get Brad Stevens.

Like, I'm gonna go be able to talk people, get money like this. I'm going to get the money to buy him out. I firmly believe you fire Archie right away because the old IU way of doing things would have been like well let's keep our Chi to keep things going and then we'll try and go back channel to Brad. But you know this is where if you want phone call, sorry. This is where you want. It might be a source of info. If you have to take it. No, no, it's not a source of

info. It's like my headphones. Start picking up the phone, and I'm not going to cut it. We're just going to keep it going. This is this is live. Pod bad podcasting, but me, you've got to put the heat on Brad Stevens. A little bit. You can't just say, well, you know, you know, come here and because your Brands like look man, get rid of your coach and then maybe I'll talk to you. You got to show your aggressive. I like this and then I'll end on

this point. Talk to Ryan about this on my last pod you guys on the assembly. Call kind of your Oil. Oh my God. The you know, we fired our cheap odd, you brought up something. I thought was a great point that you never want to be publicly turned down. But in this case I do think that

whether it's back channels. At some point I you needs to let their offer kind of get leaked and then if Brad Stevens turns us down if it comes out and I've heard a year and a number of go around and what we're offering which is pretty pretty, pretty high if that is the case, I think you do need to leak it if your Dolson and let that out because If Brad says no, that's like, okay, we gave our best shot and then, you know, in two

years, lets say he leaves, the Celtics who gets fired and then goes to coach North Carolina or Duke or wherever or go somewhere else? I know. But like, let's just say at some point, maybe he does go back to college. At least we, as fans can say, hey, we put our best foot forward like, you know, hey the girl doesn't want to date me. Like what can I do? I think in this case, we need to know like hey we put our best foot forward, he said no we're going to move on with our lives.

Versus always kind of hanging. This over our head. So I love the way that Dolson is doing this and I do believe that we are in the midst of putting our best foot forward to Brad Stevens right now. I agree. 100% agree, you know this Brad. Stevens thing is fascinating, it really is. And I think there are there are two cognitive biases at play right now, for Indiana fans. And for the national media, you know, we always is humans.

You know, we have these cognitive biases that operate, the color, the way that we perceive things, and so important to kind of First and how they're operating, right? One of them is confirmation bias, right? So, you know, this idea that you kind of look at things, you look at information and you view it through this prism of kind of confirming your, maybe, your desired, or even your existing beliefs, right? And so I think very guilty of that. We all are, we all are made.

It's just human nature. So, you know, as Indiana fans, right? It's like okay. We look at stuff who the Celtics aren't playing very well. You know, Brad Stevens spent two minutes at a press conference, you know, talking about his history, you know. With Indiana basketball, you know? He grew up in Indiana, right? You start like adding up all of these things and in your own mind, it starts to confirm.

Hey, there could be a real chance here, you know, like maybe this could really happen, you know? And so, you know, so National media people or other people who don't kind of have the same pre-existing beliefs, right?

They look at it and they're just like, you guys are crazy, you know, but here's the other thing, the other one that's operating and I think it's operating in an even more Insidious A is anchoring and you know, anchoring is where, you know, the way that we think about something is kind of anchored to this initial belief that we have about it.

And the thing with the Brad Stevens to Indiana stuff ever since he was at Butler is every time the conversation has come up. It's it's been presented as a non-starter because it has been a non-starter you know you couldn't move on from crane after 2013 as mad as you were about Syracuse, not a bit insane know what a Big Ten title.

Please number one, you know, a number one seed, all those things like that would have been crazy, you know, then Brad Stevens goes to Boston and he's excited about this opportunity. He clearly enjoyed. You know the what the lifestyle and coaching that NBA presented over college. So it's never really been a possibility. And so our thinking about Brad, Stevens has always been anchored to this idea that it's not possible. If you even mention it, you're going to get called out.

You're probably going to feel like a fool yourself if you even talk about it. So we just never really talked about it. But what's happening right now is there is a real legitimate possibility of this and this anchoring in our minds for a lot of people hasn't caught up to it, you know. So we look at these things that we view as confirmation bias running wild in our mind, but just because it's confirmation bias, doesn't mean that there is

an actual reality there. You know, all of those things. The Celtics are playing poorly and that does open up an opportunity to wear this marriage between Brad Stevens, and Danny Ainge. My Not work.

It is weird that he spent an entire two minutes at a of a question, you know, reflecting about this time in Indiana, you know, Mark Titus talked about this on his podcast and basically, at the end it's like he remembered the script and was like, oh, but I'm, you know, the coach of the Boston Celtics, like it's a pull like, you know, and he might not have wanted to go home three or four years ago, you know, because he's in Boston, you know, his kids are still young.

He's enjoying being in the NBA, it's four years later. The pull to go home. Can hit you at a different season of life and maybe Maybe that's what's happening now. So there are legitimate circumstances that are coming together that if you were to just remove the anchoring and remove the way that we thought about this for a long time, you would say, of course he's the number one candidate for this

job. Of course, he's one of the more likely candidates for this job because of his connection, how much Indiana is going to offer the way that things are lining up with the Celtics all of this stuff. Now, none of that is to say that it's going to happen for sure. But what I do think seems Pretty likely. At this point, is we're putting together an amazing offer. He's Option. 1 2, and 3, we are going to do everything in our

power to get him. And it's just going to come down to the simple fact of does he want to be the coach at Indiana or not and if he does he will be, he'll be rewarded handsomely for it. And all the DAR was like well what's going to happen with the Celtics? And how all those details will be figured out if we have to wait until June. We'll wait until June like whatever. It's it's Brad Stevens, you

know, so that stuff will happen. But so I think like, I guess my message And Indiana fans is like it's okay to like think about this and hope about it. I mean don't get crazy about it like it may not happen. So don't allow it to like just devastate your life if it doesn't happen. But we don't have to be anchored to this thought that it's not

possible. There is a window right now we're Brad. Stevens could become the coach of Indiana and we're just waiting to see if it's going to happen and that's okay you know like that is okay and it'll be great if it happens and then we can move onto. You know what it will be like when fantasy meets reality of Brad Stevens in Indiana because that would be fascinating.

Eating, or we move on to the next candidate but you know, don't don't let people tell you that you shouldn't think about it or hope about it like there's legitimate reason to and doesn't make you crazy to think that. And and I would, I would venture to say, just don't listen the national people. Like they just don't know. Like I was, I love PTI but I'm watching wilbon who by the way, is like a Northwestern grad.

So he's got a bias, but he's like on PTI and he's been saying we shouldn't have hired Archie. It's like, okay, great, like we'll just keep not making the tournament but he's like, you know, Today he just said on the last PTI yesterday was like, you know, the Celtics can pay more than I you. It's like, no, like college coaches. Make more like, you know, Gail has been spouting. This it's like just a fact Tom Allen makes more than than Brad,

Stevens does now. And by the way, like, if we're putting together a package and, you know, somewhere on the list, Chris beard is on our list somewhere. You know, Chris beard makes four and a half million at Texas Tech or five million. Like we can't just tell Chris beard. Hey, man. Like, you know, once you come to IU and take a two million dollar pay cut that we're putting together a package. Him. That's the range we're looking at. That's double what Steve is is

making in the NBA right now. Like it's no I'm with you and you know you can't do what I want to. Hey I want to say something real quick though because and I just want to throw this out there because I don't like Brad Stevens contract. Number has been thrown around at three point. Six, seven million. That was his initial contract. I do think he signed an extension, so I think he's making more, I'm just not sure that they disclosed it. So they, it's important to know.

I just want to like, make sure that's good because I made that same mistake. Like I think he's making a lot more. So like we may not double his salary or whatever, but to your point it will be more. Like we will increase his salary by a, by a good amount but it may not be able. And the other thing too is, you know, its it feels like a natural breaking point in, Boston, like I'm I'm going to be as guilty as anybody watching,

you know. I'm now Cavs fan, like I'll be, I'll be a buck stay with it for the Bucs, like, rooting for losses of the Celtics. But, you know, in the end, you look at the history of NBA coaches, Popovich is the outlier. These guys have a seven to nine year window. Boston fans are rabid and it is funny watching National guys on one hand saying I, you, you know, we're crazy fans for watching our coach gone. But on the flip side, it's like Stevens.

Who's taken the Celtics to three of the last four Eastern Conference Finals. They're like, well yeah. But you know, it makes sense. They want to fire Stevens like those two things are accurate, like those can't be in the same category, like we can't be missing the tournament. Then they can Eastern Conference Finals and it's okay for them. For both of us, we can't fire our codes but they Can fire. There's but I want to get into the timing to me, that's the

interesting thing. Like whether Stevens has interest, if your point who knows? Like maybe he does, maybe he's okay with recruiting, who knows? But if he wants to come here, this is the part that again, there's smoke all over the place. I'm hearing lots of crazy rumors that all click in, but again, I don't know if I'm in the bleep. Beautiful Mind moment where I'm just making connections to stuff, and I'm insane. But let's just go under the assumption because it's fun.

And this is a podcast. That Stevens wants to come here and Dolson has the money to pay him. The part that I cannot figure out is how you how you line things up timing-wise because it's very unlikely for him to just resign and say, I'm done coaching the stuff maybe that's going to happen, more than likely, he would coach the string out, but if your eye you it's a great. If Steven says I'm I'm gonna come here.

But if you don't have a signed contract, if you just have his word, Word. You could be in a spot where you get to June and it's like everyone assumes you're getting Stevens. And now Brad could say yeah no I got you know for whatever reason he could change his mind and now your eye you and you're like, you're really, you know, flapping in the wind and you have am again, Ohio State got Holtman in July as well, so not the end of the world but that

would be that would kind of be a very bad case scenario of your Dolson to kind of just hang on a promise and a pinky promise. You almost have to have a signed contract, but if you have that it's going to get out now. So I just I don't know how the timing of it could work. That is the interesting part of it, the really interesting part of it, you know, and I think it's a risk reward type situation right?

You wouldn't he's got Dolson you wouldn't wait around for any coach but this is Brad Stevens, who is not, he's not the perfect candidate like you know, he's not the perfect coach but he's clearly the best candidate. And so So you know to me I always try to look at these things through the prism of okay, what am I going to regret more?

You know if I'm if I'm looking at this from Scott dull since perspective and even if I'm looking at it from a fan perspective like if there's a legit shot that this could happen, right? And you know, Scott Dawson comes to me as I. Okay, there's no guarantee. But, you know, there's some interest here and we think we've got a shot like, you know, what do you want to do?

Do you want me to play it safe? Or do you want me to like, push all the chips into the table, and do everything that we have to do to make this a possibility? I would say? Fortune favors the Bold. Let's go for this. Like, this is the guy that we all want. Who knows? What would actually happen if he becomes coach. But goodness gracious, we'd all love to see it. So let's go with it and the like, what really is the

worst-case scenario, okay? So the worst case scenario is you wait until the end of the season, right? You go until June July. Things turn around he decides. You know what I want to be here. I love my guys, Jason Tatum and and Jalen Brown, you know, I appreciate the interest. I'm sorry that I dragged this out. I'll always have a soft spot for Indiana in my Art. But at the end of the day, I want to be an NBA coach because I like the lifestyle better. You know.

Sorry. Scott, you know, thanks thanks for the offer and now Scott Dolson sitting there in the middle of the summer, like well, okay, yeah like like what do I do now? Are your second third options that you have in mind right now? Are they still possibilities? Who knows? Let's say, worst case scenario, they're not this is still the Indiana basketball job, you

know? And now at this point, you've done everything to get your number one, guy it hasn't worked, but at least you've taken your shot, your fan base knows that you've taken your Shot there in your corner. 100%. So we got to step down the ladder. Some you're still going to get a good coach or somebody good. So to me the risk reward is the worst case scenario it would suck, you know, just in comparison to how we're thinking, but it probably wouldn't be that bad.

But the upside of getting it is what we all want. And how long has it been? Since is Indiana, basketball fans. We actually got what we want for once, you know. So I just, I think the roof Reward means you do what it takes and if some good options Fall by the wayside in the meantime, that's a trait. Me is a fan that's a trade-off. I would be willing to make.

So I would not second-guess, Scott Dolson, if he made it and I would be willing to live with what the repercussions of that could be. If the downside comes true, which it very well could, but I say go for it, I think that's a great way to look at it because if you assume, you know, somewhere on all of our list is Dane Fife, and I'm not pick it on. But he's only had coaching experience at IPFW, he's an assistant, but there's a lot to

like about Fife and he's on my on my personal like short list. I'm with you. Like you take the shot at Stephens and like, I don't want say worst case but it's like Fife is probably still there. Fife would take. The job is not, life is gonna be like, oh yeah, I'm going to turn down a power, five job just because you guys got turned down by Brad Stevens. You know, he would still be there, so it's like, you're gonna get you to your point.

You're gonna get somebody on that list, maybe it's not gonna be, you know, beard or be E line. But you know what's interesting is, as I look at this, all of these guys do have do have warts that do need to be looked at like and I think we can be happy with any of them and I'll probably watch them all away when we get there. But when you kind of look down the line, you know, Stevens is really the one that checks all of those boxes.

So I agree with you, you take your shot because you look at beard, I'll just do my real quick break down here. Like you know, beard is a very good coach and shows. Can turn things around quickly but it's also a, you know, it's kind of off of one season like which is kind of where we were with Archie and his ties to Indiana are very minimal and he's a Texas guy like everything, you know, and it's going to cost a ton of money to get him.

Like, it is going to cost a ton of money to get him. You look, Scott drew, he's a good coach, but he comes with some baggage at this point. I'm kind of in the boat. Like, I don't care about slimy. I just care about W's, but there's some baggage with him. You look at Eric, Muslim. And I think Muslims are very great coach has some great resume but there's some Creed 2.0 Vibes. He's kind of a crazy guy that there's some of that too.

And I would say this like you're not if you're Dolson, you're not acting like this. If you're going after a muscleman like muscle man is obviously down the list and then you get to like the Fife Cheney type. It's like they have no coaching experience or there's there's issues with all of those guys that's kind of how I see it and that's kind of my and then be lying early on. I was kind of interested but You know, as I listen to more people talk about it, listen to Galen talk about it.

It's like, I think be line is honestly trying to get us interested, so he could up his offer for Minnesota like be line. You're going to need somebody who's young and energetic and just has that ability to kind of build this program up and I'm not sure be lines. The right guy. And I also know if Dolson wants to do all this and then do it again and six years, you know, you bring up a good point. Like, like a guy like Chris

beard is a great option. Huge option to me like, personally, he's the number two, Option. You know, but he's not the perfect candidate. And all any candidate is going to have words. Like if you actually like, who were the actual candidates? Like let's just think pie-in-the-sky take everything away who are the candidates that don't have question marks like that? Would have no question marks Tony Bennett but even he would have question marks as people don't like his offensive style, right?

But you know, he would win like Jay, right? But now you're gonna go back to dating Bennett, I know, but hold on, but let me make the point, you know Jay, right? But now you're taking J right out of his comfort zone and Sophia and putting him in the midwest. So the point is like, everybody's going to have question marks, you know, like here's a blind resume for you, right? Take a coach, who is like, was that at a mid-major, okay, mid-major for six seasons out of

those six seasons. Had to 20-win seasons made the NIT four times. Like, would you be excited about that? Coach being named being named Indiana's? Coach, lots of question marks, right? Right. That's Bob Knight's resume from army. You know what I mean? So, like, you know, And are you going to stumble into the next bob Knight? Probably not but that's what I mean. So it's you have to look at the resume.

But if we've learned anything from the Archie Miller experience, it's you've got to look at the resume and the results, you know? But also the fit and the personality and all of those things. And so, you know, I think when you add all of that stuff up, I think beard makes the most sense and look on as recently as that podcast that we did for the assembly call as Is Archie was fired. I was talking about how I didn't think he was a possibility. And for several reasons I really

didn't. Because at that time, you talked about his salary and, I guess to me, like, I just, I hadn't gotten out of the IU basketball mindset thinking that we might try to not lowball a coach but not pay it like the top top

levels. And also, you know, he's there are real reasons why he might not be interested, his family's in Texas, he's from Texas. He may just have a comfort zone there, Texas. Technically do everything to keep him but I've really changed on that and I really do think it makes more Or sense as a realistic possibility but you know all these candidates are going to have even Brad Stevens has some question marks you know it is this again is going to be

a guy who wants to grind on the recruiting Trail. Maybe he doesn't need to because he's an NBA coach, you know, he's a former NBA coach, he's got that credibility and all that stuff, but like their question marks, you know. So that's that's just kind of the reality of this situation but I'm gonna, I don't know. I I continue to say like I'm going to be pretty surprised if we have to go further down.

Our list in the top couple or, you know, top top three will see, we met, but I've a lot of faith in Dolson to make this work, somehow some way whether it's stevens or somebody else. I think we're going to end up liking who we get well and you can play that game with with resumes. It's interesting too. Because you look at like, you know, hey would you want somebody who just had you know D to experience a car with Bo Ryan?

What do you want? Somebody who's never had a coaching experience like that's Tom Izzo like there's you can play this game and to me I think where I'm happy to get it, right? You gotta pick the right. Right guy. No well I honestly don't I mean yes obviously, yes. But I look at it more. You've got to identify when things aren't working and make a decision faster, which is what we did. And historically is what we don't do.

We kind of let Davis linger probably an extra year, you know, when things seem to be not working with creamy, let it linger, that's what we've done. And to me, that's, you know, I look at hiring coaches, almost like recruiting or picking high in the end. A draft. It's like, I don't know if there's like this is the exact formula works because the mid-major moving to Major guy like Archie, had the perfect resume for that.

It didn't work, you know, you could hire fight, that's like that's taken the, you know, Tom Izzo, Michigan State Route, like maybe that works like in the end, you just got to get the right coach, but I think you just it's hard to say.

These are the five things that make a great coach, it can come from anywhere to me. It's like you have to be willing to just say, all right, we're going to give this two or three years and then we're Gonna make a final decision of whether it's working because you can that was in the end, the Archie thing,

that drove me nuts. This last year is when, when it's working, you can see it. I mean, you see it with Brad Underwood at Illinois. You see, it with hultman at Ohio State. He had a different starting point, maybe, but you saw it with Creed, I mean year for their there humming, you know, they're going, they're on their way by year 5 or number one in the country. Like, it, it doesn't take this long and when you're Indiana it, sure. As shit should not take that

long. Along with the resources we have. So that that would be my pitches, no matter who you hire even as excited as we are with Stevens by year three, we should all be at the point where it's like, all right, are we pointed and going in the right trajectory? And to me your three is kind of that I think you're too honestly.

But you look at Illinois and Brad Underwood like your to it's like there was nothing going on there but by year 3 it's like they're Off to the Races and so yeah I think that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah, the last thing I would say About that is is anything for Town evaluation or hiring. Like, you've got to have a vision in your head for what you're looking for, you know what. And what are the? There's a lots of different criteria that you could pick. But what's the most important

criteria? I want to credit? Whoever said this, I don't remember who it was. It's on one of the many episodes of crimson cast that I've listened to. I think, I think it might have been, this might have been the one that Galen did with the guy from who's a Yukon fan. I forget his name. I apologize. He's not, he's not like an IU. Family brought him on to get kind of that objective

perspective. But I think what's really important for this hire is having a guy who has enough skins on the wall and a strong enough personality, and a strong enough vision for what his program is going to look like that. He doesn't have to come in and kowtow to the Indiana tradition or kowtow to Fan expectations, but he sets the fan expectations and he can pay homage to the tradition and respect it while building a new one and modernizing. It, you know?

And and the point that was made on the other podcast was that's what Nick Saban. Did it Alabama, Nick Saban came in and said, you know, he took the Alabama tradition and it was this Amazing Canvas for him to paint his own Masterpiece on, and he has done it, but it has been Nick Saban's, Alabama football and it's a new era of Alabama, football and it's changed things. It's not done like things were done and in the time of Bear Bryant.

But you know what? The most important part of tradition continuity is winning because that's the only tradition we really care about. About like not the only like we care about the candy stripes and we care about all that, and no coach is going to be dumb, enough to just come in and like, poopoo all that stuff and get rid of stuff unnecessarily, you

know. But if a coach wants to, if a Coach comes in and is like, look, this name image or likeness thing is going to be one of the most important things over the next 10 years. I have a real plan for how I'm gonna do this. And part of it is putting names on the back of the jerseys and we're going to do it. That would cause that would ruffle some feathers.

But I think you need a guy who if he believes that's the right thing to do comes in says it can sell you on it and succeeds in doing it. You know, we probably need that as a fan base, a little bit to be shaken out of some of the things that we hold, dear. Let's just agree that there are no sacred cows except for winning. And we need a guy who is going to be able to be strong enough

to do that. Now, I'm not saying we're going to hire Nick, Saban that, I mean, Nick, Saban and Alabama is like The perfect marriage of program and Coach, but it's not ridiculous to think that we could do something close, the situations are relatively analogous. If we get the right guy in, but I think you got to have, you know, and like Brad Stevens would represent that not that. He's, this overly strong personality, but his stature

what he did. It Butler, what he did at Boston and the stature he has in the fan base, you know, we would go along with anything that he said in the first couple years if he thinks that's what he needs to do to build a program. You know, even Chris beard to a certain extent. He doesn't have all those skins on the wall. I mean, he's been to a national title game. He's competed well in the Big 12, but he's got the force of

personality to do it, you know? So I think you've got to have someone who could come in and do that and kind of take control of this. Sometimes, unwieldy ship of the IU fan base and get us all going in One Direction because this is a fan base, that is thirsting for strong competent leadership. So we just need to get it and I think the Vast vast, majority of folks would fall in line and make what the spent be able to

accentuate. The positives at the fan base brings while minimizing some of the obvious and unfortunate, but still in the minority negatives. That it can occasionally bring. No, I'm so happy. You brought this up. This is the last point I wanted to talk about. This is where I think it is for the next coach. It's a fine line. You got a really thread this needle, because you see what coach Allen has done. It has done with the football program with the Elio.

And, you know, he's built a, he's built a foundation there and he's built a culture, but it happened in, you know, football was a black hole void, like there is no tradition and there's almost like a random mix of like we played a shark song on third down and like we, there's all kinds of stuff we're just as mishmash of little starts and stops of tradition, which maybe it's harder or easier, but he just kind of came in and was like Elio like Ellie. Oh, that's what we're doing.

And it's hokey. But then you're like to your point. It was hokey and to assure winning and now it's like, all right now, now there's a call. When he had the belief and he had the force of personality to get people onto his side and look at where basketballs tougher. Yes, what were you saying? Tom Allen is a special guy, you know. And look if you can identify someone with that's that genuine and has that strong of a personality, I mean you got to get nothing. You have to get lucky.

I mean, I think you just have to, you know, Fred glass, clearly knew what he was getting in Tom Allen. But I mean a guy like that doesn't come along very well. But I think, you know, basketball is a lot different than Bob but you're going to have to have somebody who has some of those same traits of Tom Allen where it's like I believe in this and we're going to do this this way and the results are going to play out or they're not and I'll be judged on those.

But this is what I believe is the right way to do it. And, you know, you're not going to, you know, some milk toast guy who, you know, doesn't really want to kind of put himself front-and-center like Archie. The fan base is probably into precarious, if a position to follow that you know, we're going to need someone.

That's strong enough to be able to guide this in the direction that it needs to go. Well, that's where basketball is tough, because there are some traditions there that, you know, I don't see her sacred cows, but you're going to, you're going to ruffle feathers if you touch. But I also do think has been brought up on many of these pods that it feels stale like it's just Indiana brand. Feels stale. We're selling on tradition. We're selling on, you know, all

these things. And it wouldn't feel stale if we were winning. I mean, if we were winning, this would all be awesome Traditions that were all into We're not winning and so it is time for us to look in ourselves. And I do think we need a coach to kind of come in and say, okay, I know what younger recruits are looking for and we're going to keep a b and c, but we're going to change, X, Y, and Z, and we're going to change it because of this.

And I do think, you know, I'm going to go back to Archie. But that was where Archie kind of just came in was like, all right well, Indiana basketball is what it is? I'm just going to coach basketball. It's like no I I think we need we need a bit of a culture shock. I think, the Nick Saban analogy is perfect that they kept, you know, the Hound Each tooth and some of those things but they changed it.

What they change was their winning like now they're winning and but I think this is where the next coach and that should be something that Dolson is looking for. Is somebody who comes in. And I think Galen said this one of the other pods looks this like an entrepreneur. And to me this is a great opportunity because football was really tough. There's nothing there. Like, at least it would with his basketball team.

This is a store that used to make a ton of money, the still on a really good street corner to use the analogy but it's like it's not making money now. It's like, can you figure out the things that work and then shake up the things that don't update it and if you do, you're going to have a power. Because, you know, when you look at this, from a Rosy perspective, I think I was doing this last night with some

friends. If you just, let's end on a very positive note because you're one of the most positive guys in the in the podcast here. But let's just assume for a moment that we do get Stevens. You know, let's just say they throw out a crazy number and he's making, you know, 6 million a year. The question is even talking to

my wife last night? Like if you're Dolson, you can almost kind of just throw out whatever number you want because let's just say you get Stevens to agree is he good is Dolson going to have any problems, finding donors to pay six million a year for Brad Stevens. The answer is no, you know, and you now have Alan and I've kind of joke that we're going to have a hundred percent approval rating over all of our coaches. But we're really at a point. Now we're coming out of this

pandemic. You could be one of the more secure Financial situations for School in the Big Ten outside of maybe Ohio State or Michigan based on their football Revenue, but you're going to start getting football Revenue that that's uphill. Imagine we hire Stevens the next two months. Okay, Stevens is our Coach Stevens comes in and this fan base is fired up. People are giving money at a ridiculous Clips.

Dolson could literally be like, hey we're going to do a 30 million dollar fundraising campaign for IU Varsity Club. Oh we already got 30 but we're going to 40 and they just go back right shit. We're gonna do 60 of them.

Yeah. Well you're going to talk about a sellout for football for the first First game back, Hoosier hysteria is going to be nuts, like it and if this train gets rolling and now you have football going to a bowl games, you have a program like this like this, you could have a Powerhouse back in Bloomington, making a ton of money and really

be in a great position. So that is what I think is at stake and I think that's what the opportunity there and to your point that's the opportunity cost. Like you've got to shoot for that Moon because you could be in a position where it's like, all right, we are We're set to really become a power of the Big Ten like we've never been because we've never had basketball and football humming

like this. We did it once in the mid-80s, but even then it's like you had bob Knight running his own fiefdom, his money was his own, he had crappy shoe deals, like it was kind of running in this parallel universe. Like this is we're one united front. That could really be a force to reckon with and we are were one

step away. Away from having it all working, right, footballs got the right guy in place and it's hummin women's basketball has the right woman in place and it's humming baseball's humming, you know, swimming and Diving, unbelievable. You know, soccer unbelievable. But the crown jewel is always been basketball and we just have

to find the right guy. And if you do, the upside is through the roof and I clearly Scott Olson is Savvy enough to see that, and that's why he's doing, whatever it takes to get the guy who's most likely to blow the roof off the For what IU basketball, could be if you surveyed. 1,000 people write a basketball observers and just said, okay, who's the coach out there? Give Indiana every possible coach that's available. Who's the one out there?

That is most likely to, you know, have it reach its potential 99.9% of people would say Brad. Stevens doesn't mean you're going to get him, but it does mean the risk-reward kind of calculus is there that it makes sense to do everything you can to get them and I firmly believe Indiana will. And, and then Then as we said, it's just up to his decision. And personally, I personally I'm at whatever the decision is I'm going to move on. And I think this is why I'm indulging it so much and

allowing myself to be hopeful. And number one, it's because we haven't felt this in a while and it's good to feel enthusiasm and to kind of feel alive as a fan. But I've made peace with it. So that whatever the decision is after that fine, and I'm ready to move on from it. I'm not going to feel disappointed. It might feel a little bit disappointed, you know, in the moment that it doesn't happen but I'm going to feel proud that we took our shot, you know.

That we did everything because if you mean if you play your best but you know if you lose but you play your best. Now it's like when you know Pete Bell and in Blue Chips they lose and he's like those kids gave me everything.

They gave me their hearts you know as long as you do that then you can be happy with the result you know and so you know why does Nick Saban work it out a Bama because he's all about process over result but if you have the right process the results will come Scott. Dolson seems to have the right process. So whether the result is Brad stevens or a different one, I believe we're going. To start getting the results we want. Because the process makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I love indulging. It, it's fun. This is fun. I want to have it. I did. The only problem is like if it's timeline really is June, this is going to be just so hard to wait for morning. Like I-15 podcast a week, until then Scott, I know, it's like, we can start doing a Celtics podcast, like, yeah, Tate of looks like he's just like Celtic assembly call. Postgame shows for Celtics games. Just get on there.

Just get on there boy. I really questioned these coaching decisions, not sure not sure why. He? Why he benched sound so there, I don't know. Maybe that maybe the pro game is past this coach by Yeah. Well, yeah. Or just like looking at it through the prism of like man, Jim Brown like you know, a brown shook him off like I want to get out of there like I think I'm like, I love the assembly call. Celtics addition this. Oh my gosh, that's great.

Well no, it's just Been fun Jared, thank you for coming on. Let's have you back when we have a coach and we have do it, have some idea of Direction. It's funny on all of these podcasts. Nobody is talking anything about roster management, nor should we, because we just don't know how any of this is going to play. But yeah, I think at this point, it's, we've got to get the Right leader in place. And then those chips will kind of fall where they may, but get the right guy even if you get

the right. If you get the coach, you believe in and every single player decides to transfer. And happen. But if they do, whatever we got to get the right guy, the right coach is going to be the one that you want long-term. Now you get the right guy, you're probably going to keep most of the players because they're smart enough. And we have I think we've recruited good enough families that they're smart enough to

know. A I want to be with this coach because it's in the best interest of my son. So let's get the right guy will set ourselves up for next year, for the future. Let's just do it, man. Let's do it. I know it's fun to indulge but I think you hit on this. You hit a great Point. Like, even if Steven says no, I don't think we need to be disappointed. It's not like it's not an indictment on. I you like I do think we need to

deep dig deep into our self. It's like, look, everyone has their own ideas of things, as long as we threw our best offer out there, you know, as long as we have a real money offer, which I think Dawson is shown with football, we're going to do like he paid Alan, he didn't, we didn't do this thing where we're going to raise you about 200,000 and get like, no, we paid our like, real. We all eat.

Yes. So I have no doubt that Dolson is going to offer real money to Stevens and then it's Ben says, no, and even a couple years of, he goes to Duke or somewhere else like all right, but that's all we can do. Like we are who we are. That's the money we have. And at that point, I shouldn't we shouldn't have ill will and we shouldn't be unhappy with who we get. Because there's, as you said, great coaches can come from

everywhere. And I think, you know, a couple of years ago, none of us if we would have hired, you know, Brad Underwood. We'd be like, man. That's a weird resume like, you know, Underwood when Archie is out there and that would have worked out, so who knows? What I would say he's a better fit at Illinois than he is at Indiana for for various reasons. So you need to have the right fit coach School fit is very important. I think Underwood fits better there than he did.

Congrats to him on all of his success. I don't want to take anything away K Sampson's, having a lot of sex as a Houston. Yeah, but that was all, I don't know what comes to answer is doing his personal life, but he's having a lot of success in Houston but but he's a better fit there. Is it Indiana, right? So that's the thing. We got to get the right fit for Indiana fair. And I think Jared, hey, this is Ben. I love having you on. I love kind of the Zen positivity, you provide.

Thank you for joining us and again, listen to the assembly call, they put out great stuff every Thursday night every post game show every firing. They have a show so they are on all the time. Great. And now after every Celtics game and that would be right. There we go, you're it. Have you ever seen talking about player? Yeah. How quiet. Is reacting to the coaching, it's going to be awesome. Celtics postgame show how's coach to signing to do it because he can't talk about

coaches being fired. So he's going to be like, well, he'll just have nothing to say. All right, there's more curves and cast content coming. I'm sure I'm sure galen's providing 75 other podcast this week so had more. This wasn't the last one. No there's more. We got a fun one. Coming this afternoon. Yeah. So until next time, thank you all for joining. Thank you all for the support. It's been fun. This has been a fun ride. I'd for Scott for Crimson, cast signing off.