Ep 1217 - Two Co-Pilots

You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home Field Apparel. All right, folks. Welcome back to Crimson Cast. Scott here with you. I'm joined by Ryan Phillips of Assembly Call. My wife listens to the podcast sometimes, but I will give her credit when we started doing this couple years ago and we called it the two Co pilots, no pilot podcast, which I love. She's like, that was really like one day she's like, I listened

to that was really funny. I'm like, oh, are you listening? She's like, well, I listened to that and I stopped listening like gay one's really good. It's like, all right, I'm enough out of you, babe, like we're done. But so this is our our annual. We should do it like semi annual crossover that the two Co pilots. I just had a moment where I'm like, all right, where's the where's the Crimson cast intro music?

You know, we're already at 10,000 feet and the, the, the planes a little bit shaky, but Ryan man, how you doing? I'm good man. We're the guys that don't don't do ad reads. You got to pay us extra for that. It's so I'm good, man. I'm good a lot, a lot going on in the last couple. We've been trying to set this episode up. I've just had like, you know, tournament stuff for work and I've, you know, been covered baseball and all of these things. So it's been so hard to actually

get time to like sit down. I finally get time to sit down today. My internet's out. So it's just, it's the world doesn't want this podcast to happen and we are fighting against it to give it to people. And we're going to make it. It's going to be awesome. It's going to, when they do the rewatchables of this podcast, the stories about it are going to be fantastic. Alright, let's get the bad that reads out of the way. As you know, we are part of the Back Home Network.

Back Home Network is presented by Home Field Apparel. Ryan, you, you came this year. We missed each other. I had to come back. Home by like an hour. But you probably saw a lot of home field apparel in the Bloomington area. Just probably the upstairs was all home field. Yeah, it's crazy. It's so crazy that how that company has gone from like our little buddies to like a juggernaut now and. Out in the wild, out in California. Would you say do? You see them out in the. Wild. Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, there's a lot of USC and UCLA stuff from from from LA down to to the border. It's a lot of UCLA and USC stuff. So. But you'll see. It's funny, I actually ran into some of my coffee shop that's a mile from here, ran into a kid and he saw my IU hat and we started talking. He was wearing and I he, he took his jacket off and he had a home field Indiana shirt on because he had just come back from his first semester at IU. That's.

Great. Yeah, So he came up to me and it's just local coffee shop in San Diego, like, you know, less than a mile. And he was just hanging up. He came up to go Hoosiers and, you know, we were talking and they took his jacket off and he had a home field shirt on. And I was like, of course he does.

That's great. Well, if you want to, if you go to Ryan's coffee shop and you want to impress him as well, you don't have any home field stuff, go ahead and use the promo code HOME 23 for 2015% off your first purchase. Yeah, there's a list of schools I approve. We'll put it in the link. Oh, OK, Beautiful, beautiful. Is USC one of them? And UCLA. Of course, UCLA, come on. No, we were. We were USC family over here. OK, Oh, you fight on.

You do the fight on. I I will say I'm not that UCLA has a great look and color scheme like just. No, Yeah, well, I mean, I, I will USCUCLA where they both wear their home uniforms at the game because about it's the best uniform game, annual uniform game ever. I think like Notre Dame and Penn State playing is usually a good one if they were their classics. But but USC, UCLA in the sunshine at the Rose Bowl on a Saturday, it doesn't get much better than that from a visual perspective.

Sure, that's hard to be. Call seems not bad as well, let's be real. But. Yeah, all right. Finishing the ad reads. We are also on Sub Stack here on Crimson Cast. Check us out on Sub Stack. We have VIP content. You can catch all our videos. It's also nice. She's got an e-mail for those of us who are older, you just get an e-mail saying, Hey, podcast is out and it's like great. I, I can check e-mail. Definitely. You don't have to check all the other, you know, social media

things. And then also we are on YouTube. Check us out there. You can watch us both, right? You can see Ryan and I, if you don't want to listen to it, you can watch us do a podcast and it's great times. We have a we're actually getting a lot of really good comments on YouTube, just a lot of good commentary and connection through that way. So please check us out on YouTube, subscribe and all those things.

I lost your mic. Oh, I was going to say, nobody has ever said that sentence in the history of YouTube. We're getting a lot of good comments on YouTube. We actually we are they're they're mostly relatively nice couple people, you know, tell me I say like too much, which is I it's probably true, but go ahead and record yourself for an hour is what I would say, and then listen to all your own, you know, mental and audio ticks and it's it's fun times.

Yeah, it really is. I you don't realize how you actually speak until you are forced to listen to yourself and watch yourself back. You don't realize all your it's like you don't. It's like you don't know somebody till you live with them. Until you have to bathe in your own voice and speaking method, you're never going to understand how it goes because it sounds great in your head. Everything you're going to say

sounds great in your head. This is why and then we'll move on. This is why when we got married, my wife and I got married, I did not want to have a videographer because pictures are beautiful and the pictures look great. But it's like I don't want to go back and watch a video of my wedding because in my mind everything was perfect. Now I'm sure, I'm sure I messed up words. I probably slipped a little bit. Like I'm sure there's a lot of.

Things ties up center. Center my one of my grooms is probably scratching himself or something. It's like, I don't know any of that. In my mind. It was all perfect. It was just beautifully sunlit, you know, the golden hour of, of, of lighting. It all looked perfect. Amazing. Yeah, It's, it's a smart idea. I mean, are all you? Kids out there don't don't go into videography if you're getting a wedding to. Hire a videographer. Someone's going to have their

phone camera out anyway. It's going. To Oh yeah, that there was this was pre pre that. You know, I'm saying now for the kids. So let's let's talk three things today. Let's talk big tournament. I I want to kind of unpack the Woodson era a little bit as much fun as that was, and then kind of see where we're going moving forward to breeze. But you, you, you cover, you know, for Sports Illustrated, you cover, you know, the the wider landscape than just the

Indiana sphere. What are your thoughts on this tournament First, first tournament with all one seeds? I will tell you this. I think I mentioned this in the pod, but if I didn't, here we go. I have a friend, neighbor who's an accountant who was like telling me, you know, five of the last seven years, if you bet money line underdog on every single game in the tournament, you win money. I'm like odds. That sounds like fun. I love to gamble. So I set a limit. I was like $10 per game.

There's 67 games, like $670. You're not going to lose all of it. But I was like, this will be a fun little experiment. It hasn't been fun. No, you're like, my kids can no longer go to college. It's. Right, I'm thinking maybe, you know, double or nothing next year or two hundred a game. But anyway, it's been a not only has there not been a lot of upsets, I I think the other Galen did a really good pod talking about, you know, some of the statistical reasons why.

But I think the other thing that's been kind of a bummer with this tournament is there's also have been a lot of good games. Like even when there's years where there's not upsets, it's, you know, a one seed could have a really close call. There's a great ending. It's like, oh, you know, a one seed beating an 8 seed in a great game people look back fondly on. That's the thing with a tournament, you know, it's not

just the upsets. You don't see a lot of the Florida Gulf Coast beating Georgetown because they won by like 15 points. You see a lot of the Bryce Drew shots because it's all the last second shots. And there's, there's really not been outside of Maryland, not a lot of good games. Well, I think teams play to their competition a lot in the tournament because you have such a short amount of time to prepare for each one.

So you don't have, I mean, I'm sure they they have a detailed scouting outlook, They have all of that stuff, but it's hard to implement something. We have three days to practice it on the end, some of these short weekends. And so I do think the teams play to each other's level a lot and you haven't been seeing that this year. And, and I'll say there's a couple reasons why. One, I think the committee is getting really good at seating teams. I think they're getting maybe

too good. That's there's a lot of statistical analysis going on. There's a lot of analytics that go into it now as opposed to just before. This was your record, you won the ACC, you beat these teams. These are how many losses you have. We're going to put you as a one. The next guy down is going to be a 2. Now. It's there's a lot that goes into it.

The other thing is the transfer portal is that the best player from Murray, from, you know, wherever I'll just throw a random place out like Murray State is going to Duke now in his second year. And so I think that you are getting a lot of funneling of the top players to the top where you used to get a funneling of the top high school recruits to the top. You're also getting other guys now funneled to the top where the money is.

And so I think that the gulf between teams has kind of, I don't think it's been crazy widened, but it's starting to stretch and you know, things can still happen. You don't need to have the best players to to win the game. But I also think we're also in a year where there were four teams that were pretty much clearly above the rest. And it was maybe like 5 or 6. But the top four who have been probably the top 4, you would say for the whole season are the

teams that made the final four. And there's a reason I, you know, everybody, I, I tweeted this a couple times. Everybody's giving J Bills crap for an all one seed final four. And I remember looking at the bracket, I actually didn't wind up filling one out this year because of time commitments and everything. And but I was looking at the the brackets and I'm like, I get how he got there. Like these are four really good teams.

And when you look at quite frankly, you look at Auburn and Duke and I know Houston's been great. Florida's been great, but you look at Auburn and Duke and how balanced and good, just good they are and how well they play together and how they're actually kind of entertaining to. I hate Duke, but they're entertaining to watch and they're so talented. They're clearly the best teams and they've been the best teams

all season long. And so it shouldn't shock us that they performed well in the tournament. You talk about the gulf of talent. I've also noticed as Indiana and Big 10 fans, there seems to be a real just gulf of talent between SEC schools and the Big 10. You know, watching, watching Michigan State play against Auburn, it's like, man, they cannot get within 10 points. Even when they played Ole Miss, I was watching that game. It's like Ole Miss looks way more athletic.

Well, I don't see this. Let me I want to say this about Michigan State because I think Michigan State had a phenomenal season, especially for not having really a star. I thought they had a great season. That was one of the better Tom Izzo seasons I've seen in a lot, a long time because sometimes it comes out to him just relying, you know, they, they wind up relying on one guy too much. That was such a balance team. They were fun to watch.

They were tough. I they lost significantly to Auburn. I mean, they made it a little bit closer at the end, but it was, you know, Auburn had them by about 12 to 15 points for most of the game. And I didn't think Michigan State was playing that badly. It was just Auburn's really good. And you know, they're you know, they they were missing some shots and it was a slow start for the Spartans.

But like Auburn's just good. Like that was, you know, that was one of those where you can't be upset if that's your team's effort in the Elite 8 and you lose, you can't really be upset because you were playing a such a good team. Well, Bruce Pearl is doing there, man, I like it's one of the funnier things to me too, is the coaches in this are Kelvin Sampson, who we know his history, Bruce Pearl, who we

know his history. And then Todd Golden, who is on staff with Bruce Pearl at one of his stops. You know, so he was through he he learned under Bruce Pearl. And then John Shire, who is just like squeaky clean guy.

But like the other three are all kind of like playing in those Gray areas you have to play in in college basketball and then they getting rewarded for it. It's I want to come back to the Auburn like the the player comp to the Big 10, but it it it always I, I find it so funny, especially with what IU did with Kelvin Sampson, that there is this system within college basketball in the media infrastructure for exactly what you're talking about that guys get in the Gray.

People get kind of worked up for a little bit and then literally maybe unlike any other sport, winning cures everything in college basketball because they talk about Kelvin. Sam's like, man, you know, he's just glowing. Talk about Samson glowing. Talk about Bruce Pearl. Not nary a word. I remember when Bill Self was like being investigated by the FBI and they made the final four and it's like, oh, Bill Self just turning this team around.

Such a nitty gritty coach. Like all of it goes away. It it is it is so. Yeah, winning cures all, man. Yeah. Winning cures all, but in college basketball it really does. It is just they understand they are partners and we're going to kiss the ass of every college coach and even if they did something wrong or blew up a program, don't care because they're here now and then they're greedy coach and just, you know, he knows how to get kids doing what he wants to do.

It is it's wild to see and it continues to happen. And it's so funny when teams get nervous or they they have kind of their own little, you know, two week media cycle of being scared about little things that happened on the on the recruiting side, like those kinds of things. And then it's just like, nobody cares, like. Nobody cares. What's funny to me is the hindsight, you know, kind of rewriting of all of that that like, well, Kelvin Sampson, what he did wasn't that big a deal.

It's like, well, no, it's not that. What he did is he was instructed specifically not to do it, did it, then lied about it. You know, it's the cover up is

always worse than the crime. I mean, with with Bruce Pearl, he had Aaron craft to a barbecue and then told everybody involved to lie about it, lied about it, you know, avoided like any kind of responsibility for it. And that's why he got, you know, hammered was not because he had a kid do a BBQ, but because of everything else that went along where he tried to manipulate the process and all that. So I, yeah, I think that people forgive it because the crime isn't in the grand.

Oh, you paid a player a little bit extra money. I mean, who cares in these days? And it's like, oh, no, but it was illegal and we all agreed not to do that. Doesn't mean it wasn't happening. But don't get caught. And then on top, you know, that's how it feels with some of the old school guys, you know, when they get caught, like Rick Pitino, perfect example.

Like he played in those margins for decades, finally got caught and now he's being celebrated for bringing St. John's back from the dead, Right. And he's a great, he's a great coach.

He is, but not the best person. Yeah, the, the question for Samson is this is, I mean, I always looked at it as in a way I almost don't even blame Samson anymore because like, he's, he does what he does and he shouldn't have, you know, he was told not to do it. But it's like that's kind of on IU. Like you hire a guy who's in a show cause and then you're shocked. When he wasn't. In the Gray, it's like, what

were you expecting? Like you have, if you hire him, you have to be willing to play a little bit in the Gray. Here's the thing that I'm trying to remind people is, and hopefully this is, we see this with Devries moving forward, but it's like it's not that hard to turn it around when you're a good coach. Samson in Year 2 and I, I forget the exact day he was fired, but it was right in that Michigan

State Purdue range. But on February 19th, they were 22 and 4:00 and 11:00 and 2:00 in the Big 10. They were headed to a one seed. Yeah, he was. He was, He was. That was his second year. I've been having fun just thinking, let's just pretend IU has stones. And it's just like, hey, we're we're going to fight through this. And they just, they just plow ahead and they're like, we're not firing him. And you know, we have minor

sanctions, whatever. And we just have Samson the entire time between now and then and now I, I have a hard time believing, seeing what he's done at Houston, the way that he's coached, the way he turned it around at Indiana. I have a hard time believing we haven't been to a Final Four and possibly have another banner. Multiple, multiple Final Fours, multiple Big 10 championships, no question at all in my mind. I the guy can coach. He's a phenomenal basketball

coach. I mean, there's no question about that. You saw it at Indiana in his brief tenure there. I mean, what he was able to do, they were the one of the best teams in the nation in his second year. And I mean, we know there's a lot of garbage going on behind the scenes, not just with the recruiting stuff, but with the players as well. But he put together a really good team who was really tough.

And I think that you're right about Indiana not playing the Gray. I think that there was a disconnect really about the greater world of college basketball. But not only that, but the idea that this has happened a couple times in Indiana where the athletic director doesn't really make the hire and that that comes from above. And I think that it was Rick Greenspan at the time tried to put guardrails in because I'm sure he knew that Kelvin, that was not the only thing Kelvin

Sampson had done. And so he tried to put the guardrails in place and basically said, I'm washing my hands of this because this is the best I can do is hire this guy and put the guardrails in place. And the guardrails was very firmly in place. It wasn't like they were misunderstood.

Everybody who covered the team knew the rules, not just the, you know, So everybody on the team and then, you know, they Blake them break them and not just break them once it was flagrantly just being like, yeah, who gives a shit? Like, you know, I mean, it was and then they got caught doing it. And so I, I think there was just a there, it has always been a disconnect in Indiana of like how you win and like doing it the right way and all of that

stuff. And then the greater landscape of college basketball, what that means. But not only that, there's disconnect between administration, athletic department boosters, like that has not been in a straight line. And so when I heard Darren Devries say at his press conference that everybody is aligned, I laughed actually, because, you know, if that's true, that's amazing. But that has not been true at

Indiana throughout history. And that's how you wind wound up with a. At times, the program was lagging behind in infrastructure. Now that's been fixed. But then you have the disconnect with certain hires and all of that stuff. Or some people want one guy, some people want others. Doesn't ever feel like everybody's on the same page. And if that's true, then Indiana is headed the right place. But yeah, it's not necessarily always been true in the past.

Well, and that was, that was an interesting time because like, like you, like you said there, there was just differing views of how things should go. And you know, that's also you're you're what, like six to seven years removed from your last Final four. You know, Samson is really kind of the first outside higher coach after night. You know, Davis was obviously the coach, but that was a different situation. And you? Yeah, it was an interim to full time.

Head coach was an assistant. You didn't have a a cert like we're going to go out and grab somebody. And I think there was still that feeling of, you know, we we have to win, but we want to win the right way. It it, it is the great time machine question. If you just kind of stop everyone in the middle of that season, like, hey, if you fire this guy, just letting you know you're not going to be in the Elite 8 for the next 17 years,

Are you still cool with that? Because I think, I think that's what's changed. And again, I, I'm we can change topics. Like I don't think Devry's doing it the wrong way. But I, I do think looking back, like at that time, I think a lot of people were like, hey, man, you got to do it the right way. Like get rid of Samson. Get rid of Samson. I now look back retrospectively after 17 years of kind of a barren wasteland of winning, kind of being like, yeah, maybe what he did wasn't that bad.

Wasn't that? Bad. Yeah. No, we want to convince ourselves that that was the wrong move. Yeah, And honestly, I'll say I think that it was the right move given the times and the circumstances. And also they knew all the bad stuff going on. But once they started digging, they knew all the bad stuff going on behind the scenes with the way the players were acting around campus and all that. Like that became known to them.

And I think it was the kind of thing where it was like we need to end this like, you know, because, because if this has come out, more is going to come out And and, you know, basically when they, you know, Tom Crean arrived and not wanting to hit the reset button, I think that gets lost too, because everyone said, you know, remembers the year where he had a ton of walk ONS playing all the time and all that. They won, you know, six games or whatever.

He didn't want that. He thought he was inheriting a stack of players that, hey, these guys are 22 and 4. We're going to kick some of them off the team, but we're going to keep like this handful of talented guys and then build from that and whatever. And then he got on campus and they pulled back the curtain and he's like, well, you can have three of them. And he was like, can I just do

none? And like, you know, like, I mean, I think it was, you know, one of those things was like, if I'm not getting 6, like why have the three? And, you know, and he knew he would get a little more leeway, I think, if he hit the full reset. And so, yeah, it was a weird time. I mean, I was there. I was covering the team during that for. The other retrospection I want to talk it was. Crazy.

But the other retrospective thing, I brought this up on one of our coaching pods with Galen. He he, he was doing a, a pod with Tony Adronia and they were talking about Crean. And Tony said something about, you know, the first three years, like, you know, you, you, you kind of, you know, can't really count him. I forget what he said. I was thinking to myself, I talked to Galen like nothing has ever swapped in my mind more than the first three years of

cream. Because like in the time, it's like, all right, these years can't count. Or the 1st 2 maybe the third is like years like. I mean, he was. It was a smoldering pile. Of rubble. He had the rubble. Those two can't count in his record. And then he got to the end. It's like, well, I did live through it. Like those, those do count. And then then you kind of look back and say, well, but his record really starts from the Zeller year is not.

And they're like whether those two years count like theoretically to him being good or bad is kind of, it is oscillated in my mind back and forth. I think about the point now where you kind of have to count it because it is. I look at it now, it's like it's two years of and there's a definite asterisk by it, but it's two years of my life that are just. Gone. Well, it's like nothing.

Happened there. It's like every president blames the economy in his first two years on the previous president. That's what it is. It's like, wow, look, I'm digging out. I'm digging out from the other guy. I it's you know, you got to give me time to adjust. It's like you're already running for re election. Like what are you, what are you talking about? Like. That was the year of tariffs, we'll call it like the terror, the terror year. All right, the apology.

Let's talk Woodson. So I'm curious you're, you know, we we've had a good run talking about Devries. Think it's going to be fun looking forward. We'll get to that near the end. I'm curious your thoughts on, you know, unpacking the Woodson experiment, the Woodson time, because there's similar to Korean. There's a way that, you know, there's a very simplistic view that some of my friends have told me. It's like, look, man without trace Jackson Davis, what was

the Woodson years? And it's like, well, he's not, you know, Chuck's notes. Not sure, I'm just. I'm sure even further it was well without trace Jackson Davis and Ray Thompson because those guys were like Ray Thompson wasn't the statistical guy. He wasn't winning all Big 10.

He, you know, whatever. But those if you go back when they lost him and Trace, obviously Trace for the talent and race for keeping the team together and being like the general on defense, essentially and being like sort of a glue guy, like the ultimate. I think that in in in the in fans mind, race Thompson has become like has was so much more appreciated than he was on campus or others have just forgotten about him. It's one of the two.

And that guy was the cornerstone with Trace Jackson Davis when those two guys left. When you lose 2 cornerstones, bad things happen. I mean, it does. And, and if you've looked at it, the team does not perform in close game situations. They allow themselves to get blown out. All of those things that don't happen when you have leadership. And so there's just been a leadership vacuum at the top since those two guys left.

Yeah, it it. What's weird about it is, you know, we we all question a lot of things about what Woodson was doing, the way he ran offense, the way he ran schemes and stuff. But you know, he he made Trace Jackson Davis a way better player. Like he in in that respect, he was able to turn him into a very

functional professional player. And you know, his assist rate went up. Like Trace Jackson Davis's senior year was doing things that he had never done before, was passing the ball was basically a pseudo point guard. I mean, he was unbelievable. So there's a part there where you're like, I, I can see through the forest a little bit of light in like you can really do that.

I have a hard time finding any other examples of players that really showed any player development under Woodson, which is kind of the bizarre thing, 'cause it's like he could do it. Or maybe he just did it once and was like kind of the Woodson thing, like, well, I'm good and go have a cigar like. We go back this. Is the draft?

I'm out. I think a lot of what he did as far as was just unlocking guys who were already talented like Jalen Hood Trifino came up. It was much better at the end of his freshman year than it was at the beginning, but Jalen Hood Trifino was a five star point guard who was already pretty damn good. It's just a matter of getting him there. Trace big time recruit. It was a matter of getting him there.

Khalil Ware came in after a terrible season in Oregon, became a first round pick and it it's doing great this year in in the NBA. So I think it a lot of it for him and he's probably his NBA experience. Help with this was just unlocking the talent that already existed in guys. He wasn't taking guys who were at their peak already and giving him that 10% more. And that's not a knock on him. Like the skill he had for that

is very important. I mean, that's the whole point of getting a guy from high school to college. I mean, you can recruit your your your ass off, but if when the guys get on campus, they don't get any better. You've just got a good high school player, you know, you know. And so I think that was his skill more than anything, was giving guys the confidence to realize their potential. And and he did that with some guys he did with other guys. He didn't.

I mean, Tamar Bates is a perfect example. That guy has gone on and had a really nice career at Missouri. It just didn't translate in Indiana. And that that's not a this is really just a Woodson thing that happened. Yeah. So, yeah, it wasn't like this massive player development factory and we just couldn't get it together on the court. Like, you know, it was selective.

But I think that my concern when he got hired, and I was very vocal on our emergency podcast that he when he got hired, that the problem is that NBA guys going to college basketball do not work. It does not work. It never works. I mean, there are times where guys from college have gone to the NBA and gone back. That's different. You have college experience, but a lot of times what happens with NBA guys coming to college, they think I have coached on the highest level, which is better

than this. I know better. I know what I'm doing. I'm very smart. I'm this, I'm that, like I get it, you don't let me come teach you basically. And they don't understand the grind that is college basketball.

And I, and I use this example on somebody called the other day, Billy Donovan, when Oklahoma City, when he was done in Oklahoma City, could have picked any college job because of his success at Florida, gotten A10 year, $100 million contract fully guaranteed and just gone and been put in whatever effort he wanted at that place and probably been pretty successful

because he's a good coach. And, you know, if he got obsessed about it, could win another national title, whatever, But like, could have just cruised at that next place because they would have been happy to have him. Instead, he got a chance to coach the Bulls, who were in a full rebuild. And it's an organization that's been a mess for a while. And he was like, yeah, I'm going to take that over the grind of college basketball. That's what I'm going to do. Brad Stevens, Indiana offered

him. He was on thin ice with the Celtics at the time. Indiana offered him. The keys to the Kingdom make him the highest paid coach in college basketball. This is back when Woodson was hired. Before they hired Woodson, offered him whatever he wanted, offered to build infrastructure around him so he wouldn't have to do all the things that he doesn't want to do about college basketball, which is all the recruiting Rd. trips and all of these things.

They offered him whatever he wanted and he was on the verge of potentially a breakup with the Celtics and he said, no, I'm good. I'm going to stick this out. I'm going to see how this works for me being on thin ice, not living up to my potential, you know, that people think and all of that. It has worked out for him now, but at the same time, that's the disconnect. This guys who've been in college and go to the NBA know what colleges like and don't go back or are choosing not to go back

these days. So when the NBA guys come, they don't get it. They don't get that is a 365 day a year job and you have to be a little bit nuts to enjoy that. It's the same with college football. College football coaches are a little nuts to enjoy this. And I think that Mike Woodson came in and said I am going to do what I've always done. I'm going to coach all I've always coached, and I'm going to treat this like an MBA program.

They tried to build an MBA program in college basketball where the coaches get a lot of time off. I will say the assistants worked. His assistants worked I think 10 times harder than anybody else's assistants because they knew that disconnect and they were

all a couple of them. You know, they've been in the game for a while and understood, but he basically put the time in that he would put into an NBA job thinking that because I'm better at this, because I've been there, I can do it here and this will be easy. And we saw the results and it was not. And so I think that in the NBA, I think coaching, the the act of actually coaching is far more important than it is in college because college, that's about

50% of your job. The rest is recruiting. It's development. It's, you know, making sure everybody's on your side by doing these barnstorming things and being kind of a politician and all of those things and connections and, you know, relationships with coaches all over the state, relationship with AAU programs, all of that. There is so much more to the job than coaching. And I think that the NBA guys who come down don't get it. And that was kind of what I telegraphed when I was like.

And I hope he proves me wrong, but that's what I see happening and it and it's what happened with Indiana. And, and it's sad because I think that Michael Woodson coming back and making Indiana a very successful program would have been a great story, but I just don't think it ever had the

chance of happening. Yeah, I mean, I'll say two things like one to the coaching, I I agree and I have been, you know, season tickets with the Pacers for years and going to a lot of those games, watching a guy like Carlisle coach. It's also just a different type of coaching in that I always find it funny like they all time out, they have a 2 1/2 minute time out. Carlyle will talk to his assistants for like a minute 40 and then come in and say like

three things then be out. And it it's, but it's also like it's the. Players already know. The players are professionals. They know and you know, they know what they're supposed to do and. You can and, and like I look at that end of game situation as a prime example when IU Maryland where like see like like 2 guys

go like real quick. He's thinking on the fly and he's doing something that probably would have worked in the NBA where it's like, Hey, Bronson, you, you get in like, and it's like everyone knows, Oh yeah, I got to get in and, and pro player would get in and he'd understand. All right, I know that, you know, whoever I'm guarding is going to go to the fake to the left.

Like you're coaching in the NBA is much more about just reminding people what they already know in my mind and kind of being like, Hey, don't forget he wants to go left and don't forget you got to go slip under the screen on him, but go over the screen on him and just keep get in mind we're going to run play four and like go to it. It's so much more fundamental in XS and OS in college. And it has to be more feel where it's like I can't do three different things before an

inbound play in college. And you saw that with with Woodson. The other thing that I was just not prepared for was what you said about like kind of wanting some of the time off, but just how how much dissonance it felt like there was between Woodson talking about what was important about being at IU, like just bringing back an alumnus. It, it felt like that would break. That was at least my hope going into it. I had a lot of the same concerns you did.

But it's like, all right, at least we're going to bring everyone together, like everyone together. And this guy understands that Indiana basketball understands what we're about and understands the mission and like we'll work toward that. I don't feel that like after the Woodson experiment, it almost feels like there's another fracture in the in the fan base. And I was not prepared for that. I wasn't prepared for hearing the stories. Like immediately I've hammered on it.

But you know, first year it's like, hey, Woodson's not going to the state title game in Indiana. It's like what, like we're not doing that. And it felt almost like a celebration tour, like, hey, I've earned this. This is my retirement job and we're just going to enjoy this for the last couple years. I I don't know that that's the piece that kind of always is going to miss me about. The Woodson years is just the amount of disconnect between bringing this guy back.

It felt if I didn't know, I'd be like, this guy has no idea what Indiana basketball is about. Wild to say. Well, and, you know, the way he coached was very different than you'd expect. Bob Knight disciple, he's going to coach like very different than than Bob Knight. I mean, like, you know, nothing was the same. But I think, yeah, I, I I do think that that's, that's part of it. Is it people, you know, expected one thing from him and got another.

But it, you know, it's always hard to fire a family member. Let's be real. That's why you don't hire family members to work at your company And, and, you know, because people are going to defend them even when they're not doing their job. And, you know, the perfect example is Patrick Ewing at Georgetown. You know, it's that they were bad under him. Bad, bad doesn't mean he didn't love the school.

Didn't mean he didn't care. He probably cared more than anybody on the planet about Georgetown, but he was bad. And at some point you got to realize someone's bad. You got to let him go. Regardless of what your, your connection to the university got you this job, it should not let you keep this job. You get one or the other, you know, and like, you didn't earn this job. Like Mike Woodson was not on anybody's radar as a head coach in college basketball or the NBA.

He got the job solely because he went to IU and it was a great player there. And his, his, if you look at his resume in the NBA, it was not one that warranted the, the, the Indiana job and all that comes with it. I think when you hire somebody like that, that's the gift. The gift is not not firing them. And I've always said this about high level college basketball with how much money is involved. If at a place like Indiana, you know, smaller schools, you got

to give guys time, whatever. As soon as you know that somebody is not the guy, you fire them immediately. Like I don't care if it's after year one. If you know that this guy is not going to win a national title. And that is the goal in Indiana is to win a national title again, go to Final Fours, all of that. You want to win a Big 10 title, all of that I know you do. But the goal is to be nationally relevant again and that's the amount of money you put in the resources you have, all of that

and the fan base support. You have national championship level that if you do not have any national championship level coach, like after one year, if Darren De Vries is, you realize like that's not the dude, it's not going to happen. This is not you get rid of him immediately because you cannot waste four years on something. You know, fan apathy these days grows very quickly and it takes a lot to get them back. Once they're out, it's hard to get them back.

And you're also not building that next generation of fan if you're really bad. And so there's a lot of distraction for eyeballs. It's not 1980 anymore. And so as soon as you know that guy is not the guy, you go get the best guy out there. I don't care what his connection is, whatever. It doesn't matter if he's a family member, doesn't matter if he just hired him, whatever. Move the hell on as fast as possible because you're just

wasting time. End of last year, everybody knew Mike Woodson wasn't going to win a national title in Indiana and some people said no, let's put the big investment in the program. Some boosters, quite frankly, said let's put a lot of investment in the program. He can do it if he has the right players. He hasn't had the right players. Put all this big investment in and what happened, you ended up in the same place you were the

year before. Regardless of this massive investment, all it got them all the players he wanted. So you knew last year it was time to move on and you didn't. And he wasted a year and the coaches that were available last year, who knows? I mean, I I'm happy with Aaron Debris, but there were some coaches available last year very interested in the Indiana job. We know from people we've talked to, all the back channeling, it was going on. They opted not to go that direction.

And now those guys have been wildly successful elsewhere. And so at some point you have to just say, this is big time college athletics now. There's a lot of money in it, more than there was twenty, 30-40 years ago. You cannot waste it. It's a precious resource and you've got to be competing at the top because of the money involved. You'll pay them out.

Like, it's not like they're, you know, you're firing them and sending them to, you know, the unemployment line, they're going to get a huge buyout and all of that. So I think that you just have to be harsher and, and, and really, you know, look out for yourself instead of anybody else these days. Yeah, no, I I agree. The, the, the two comps I've always used and they're, they're

getting older and older now. But you look at North Carolina when they hired Brad Doherty, who was a a, an alumnus, that, that third year, they were 19 and 16, six and 10 in the ACC, but 19 and 16 and they fired him. You know, the other one that I always go to, I'm going to pull it up real quick, is Kentucky. And by the way, firing him quick, how'd that end up? Yeah, well, I'll get to a point on that. But they they, you know, Billy

Gillespie, it's even worse. I mean like worse than a like he, he was 19 and 12/8 and eight in the SEC. You know, that's not awful. There's a winning record that is 500 in the SEC. They fired him after two years. Just we're not going to take this now. I agree with you. I also think that what North Carolina and Kentucky also did there is they had somebody identify that it's like this is somebody we truly believe we're not just going to fire him. And then like, all right.

We'll look around, start from scratch. Yeah, we let's figure this out. It's like they're like, no, Calipari is our target, so we're going to move to get that. And you know, Roy Williams is our target. We're going to move to get that. And that, that's where I've, you know, I, I've always, I go back to the Archie thing. We're kind of meandering around here. But like the the Archie. Thing shocking we're meandering

in this conversation. No, no flow with a lot of flow, no direction with Archie. It's like that was the right hire in that cycle. I agree, it just may not have been the right cycle. And and it wasn't the right fit. I mean, right? This is almost where it's, you know, like in the NBA, last year was the wrong year to have the number one pick. If you can kind of pick it, it's like, I'd like to have the number one pick when Wimba Yama's available, not when you know, hours or whoever were the

first pick, but last year. And you know, I, I, I wish sometimes that I'm not sure if they're thinking enough like that where it's like you're near the the end of the Korean era. It's like this isn't working. Let's we know we're going to have to make a change at some point. Let's also do it when the prospect pool, what's a really good draft, so to speak, Earth is you ended up hiring in the Archie cycle. You go a year early before maybe you go the Nate Oates, maybe not.

Maybe they maybe he's too low end, but it's like I, I, I that's where I get like, I wonder how much foresight people are giving into this. Well, and you hope you just got to get lucky. I mean, honestly, you do, you really do. And I mean, last year, it's not, I'm not speaking out of turn to say that, you know, the options were probably Bruce Pearl and Dusty May and you missed out on

that. And, and I think that while there's some discussion about it, I think both guys would have come to Indiana and you missed out on that come back this time. And I think Devries probably is the best guy available this year. I really do, given his track record, what he's built, all of that and how he coaches. And it's not a but it's not a it's, you're right, it's one of those down years in the NBA draft. It really is. I mean, there's not like a

marquee coach available. You're trying to get the next guy coming up and I mean, just to me, it was that way last year a little bit. But Bruce Pearl has won everywhere he's been. And again, we're talking about the shady guy. Who knows if Indiana would have wanted to swim in those waters again. But you had options this year. You know, Ben McCollum seems like a nice coach, a a pretty good coach and Darren Devries and some other guys floating around out there.

But there was no slam dunk hire this year. And again, it's a lesson in. And again, I, I'm, I'm not saying I'm disappointed with ending up with degrees at all. I, I really like him and I think he's going to be very successful in Indiana. But it is that thing, it's that, you know, the butterfly effect of not making that move last year when you knew it wasn't going to work out, wind you up

with a different candidate pool. So, yeah, it, it's, it is it, it is very interesting how those things change. If they'd let Mike Woodson go a year before, who do they wind up getting Crane? You know, it's, it's, and then you know what, how does that change? Or, I mean, do they wind up getting Samson? And then it's, how does that change download? Does that lead to crane and, and all that stuff? So it's, yeah, it's, it's fascinating how that works.

But you know, you are where you are because of what happened. And I think that very early on it was clear that the the Woodson thing wasn't going to work. I remember getting a text the night they lost to Miami and it was from the inside the program, who is a big Woodson supporter, and it just said that was the end of the best season Mike Woodson will ever have it Indiana. And it was out in the 32 and they'd gone, I think 12:00 and 8:00 in the conference. And he just said that's the end

of the best season he'll have. He won't do better. And I was like, really like, I mean, he's building an infrastructure. They made the tournament back-to-back years. And he was like, no, it's not that's that's the best it's going to get. And I was just like, that's not good because it was somebody who's a big time cheerleader of the hire so. Yeah, it it didn't work. It just, it didn't.

It did it, it just didn't. And I think that, you know, I, I think a lot of and, and some stuff has come out on this and I don't want to dwell on it, but there was a lot of like petty squabbles behind the scenes and like things where people just aren't like viewing the actual problems and that, you know, getting these little kind of spats behind the scenes and making those the focus as opposed to like the big picture. And I think the effort in recruiting just wasn't there.

And I think that was true of Archie too. That's not just a Mike Woodson thing. I will, I will say again, guys like Kenny Hunter and Roseman, like those guys worked really, really hard. They did, but they were up against it. And Indiana was in it for a lot of top recruits because of their effort and they didn't get them because the relationships just weren't built at the top. And, and there were guys who wanted any excuse to go to Indiana and we're not given one

by the people at the top. And so I think Brandon Mullins fits into that category, as does, you know, obviously Liam Mcneely and Derek Queen. And there are a couple guys who just who really loved Indiana, really wanted the. Moments in the tournament. The small moments in the tournament. I mean, yeah. And, and just we're not, you know, I I just think it was a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of a head coach in in

recruiting. And again, Indiana asked for that by hiring a guy who'd never done it before. I think you've, you've mentioned this before, I'm stealing this from you. But it's, it is funny because people say, well, you know, if you just could have given him like, you know, a good assistant coach or a GM, it's like they did, they gave me that and he just didn't use them and fired

him. He just didn't speak to Thad Mana. I mean, you know, Thad Mana was brought in and that was a Scott Dolson thing to be like, I'm going to make this palatable to people. And dad has always loved Indiana basketball and these was, you know, whatever he's always like kind of danced around the periphery of like potentially for a while is potentially he would be the coat, like, you know, all that stuff.

And he brought him in and he said, please, you just got to run college basketball, run a college basketball program. And they just, they never, they never had anything to do with each other. And that was not that Moda's fault. Woodson came in and basically said, I know what I'm doing. I don't need a babysitter. I don't need somebody to teach me how to win basketball games. If that Moda's like one of the best Big 10 coaches the last like 30 years. I'm right.

My, my, my office is literally right down the hall. Doors open. I'm just going to leave the door propped open. Come in whenever, come say hi, call me. You can yell down the hall and nothing. You know, they. I think people envisioned them, like, watching film together and, like, working on, you know, nothing. And he was gone. I mean, that shouldn't have even unpacked his bags. Like it, like, honestly, it was.

Yeah. I, I Yeah. Yeah, but it also the last historical thing I'll say is, is this is where, you know, we talk a lot of football and Crimson cast. Obviously this is where Signetti changes everything for everybody. And and what I mean is if, you know, there was a time 18 months ago where you still had Woodson and Tom Allen as your head coaches. And my joke was kind of like if you're Pam Wit and at some point you go to Dolson and like, hey, what do you do here? Like how how is your hiring

going? But you know, the the hiring of Signetti changed everything had had you kept one more year of Alan or the OR they hire. You know that isn't Signetti doesn't work. There's a world where dolson just doesn't have the, you know, ability to to make this call where it's like, look, we need to change at athletic director before we make a change at head coach, because we don't trust

your steady hand at this. But you know, you you hire Signetti and that buys you an unbelievable amount of rightfully so goodwill that you can now move with this. So it, it, I, I think things are drastically worse if we don't have the signeti effect in IU athletics with IU football because you're probably burning it down to the studs again. Well, yeah, and and and and Dolson wouldn't have had the cache to start doing what he did.

And, and basically from how I understand it, and I've been told this by multiple people, is in Atlantis where they got blown out twice. That's when he started sort of consolidating behind the scenes, not saying like I'm going to oust him, but consolidating support behind the scenes, that if this goes off the tracks, we got to make a move. And there were people genuinely Mike Woodson, I mean, we've heard from, you know, his interactions, he said this a

lot. And I know people have said this, people shout it down, but he basically was telling people, I'll be here as long as I want. This is my job and I'll be here as long as I want. And we've heard that from other podcasts, we've heard that online and people have shouted down and said that was happening behind the scenes is he was telling people I'm, this is I basically I'm going to be here as long as I want. And the reason why is because he had the backing of some very powerful people.

And so he thought he was secure and he had the leg room to do whatever he wanted. I think after the Signetti hire, Dolson felt like, OK, I can push back against this now. I, I'm in a position where I've proven myself. And now if I think we need to move on, I'm going to exert myself and, and do that. And, and he was right. I mean, and so I think Atlantis was around the time that it started to, you know, if this doesn't get better, we're moving on. And that's sort of how it played

out. And I think that they wanted to give him a dignified exit, but they were ready to to to get it done pretty quickly. And I think the big thing what we all know why it happened, when it happened, it was because Michigan was coming to town with Dusty Bay. And that is why it happened. When it happened had nothing to do with Mike Woodson deciding at that point that I'm going to retire. It was Indiana being like, this is going to get real ugly and an Indiana legend is going to be

buried. We cannot have the visual or the audio of that happening. And it's. It's a bummer. I hope, I hope we can move

forward. I want to talk to Breeze here at the end, but it is it's a bummer, but it also it is nice to know that IU fans are being listened to it at some point in that, you know, it felt like that the final dagger blow for Archie was them getting booed off the court in, you know, Indianapolis. And then it does feel like not only the Michigan game, but that lost to Illinois where you're

just the doors are blown off. People are, you know, getting cranky in the stands and people are leaving at halftime. I'm not advocating booing. I'm not saying you should Boo or yell or any of that stuff. But it, it's, it does come to a point at some point for fans who are like, I don't know what else to do, But I'm, I'm just, I'm frustrated with this. And it, it does feel like at least the athletic department can feel when like, oh, this, it shouldn't have to get to that

point. It's like a car that's, you know, revving in the 9 hundreds, Like we shouldn't have to be that high. But it does feel like those are moments where their departments, like, we can't let this get much worse than where we're at. Yeah. And that that's exactly what happened. I think that it that it was, you know, fan sentiment does matter when it's reasonable. And there was no reasonable fan who could say like this is going great, you know? And so I think that that's where it came.

Now, if it's year 2 and again, I, I'm of the opinion as soon as you know, it's not the guy, get rid of them. I've said that. But like, if it's year 2 and they're decent but not great and fans are getting, you know, are booing them at home for a for a bad performance, that's not going to lead to much. But I mean, after you're in your 4th year and you're getting, you know, enhanced by Illinois on your home floor like you're done.

Like, you know, I mean, it's there's a. Curb stop at Iowa. Yeah. I mean there are fans are allowed to be upset at that point. And I think that, yeah, the sentiment does matter because those are your paying customers. I mean, let's be real, those are your paying customers. And at some point it has to be look like it looked out like that. And debris is getting. I think it's, you know, we make it 5 million a year for six

years. He should be expected to produce a 5 million a year for six years. You know, performance just like Woodson should have been able to live up to his contract. You know, no excuses. You're making that much money. So we look ahead to the debris era. The the thing that I'll say with that. I I thought was funny that people as we did our coach preview on Crimson cast with oddly, we never got never got to debris.

That was he was on our list of like the next round of guys we were going to do. Thought we had a little more time. Some of the comments were funny that, you know, we would do some of these guys like McCollum, you know, Galen had his concerns with him, but you know, debris kind of falls into a different camp. But people like we, we did the Archie thing. It's like we can't, you know, another young guy. We need somebody with more experience.

We already did Archie and and what I find funny is I I did AVIP video about this that we kind of we've hit, we've already hit every coach sector like this. Unfortunately, what happens when you hire 6 coaches in 10 years, you know, in 15 years, whatever. It's like we we did the the assistant move up with Davis that didn't work Awesome. You know, we tried the guy with a little bit has a checkered pass with Sam Sampson has real high success that didn't work

out on our end. You know, you, you try the guy who has a final four and and it's shown they can do high level success in cream that ended up didn't working out. You get the hot young coach who had one Goodyear tournament success with Archie that didn't work out. Like we tried the the alumnus with an NBA. Like at some point you're going to have to retry something because there aren't other archetypes you can go to unless you're just going to like hire somebody at AD 3.

Like it. I just found it funny that it, you know, people were so burned by the Archie thing where I just go back to like it didn't work. We don't need to talk more Archie. But it's like that doesn't need to be an archetype. You take off the board, like, just work like you. You look through all the coaches. Getting a young up and coming coach is the way most teams do it. Yep, and and, and also I'll say this like Archie didn't work not because of the method of you getting him.

He didn't work because he wasn't a fit and he wasn't like a guy built to handle a spotlight. Like here's the thing, Archie, and and these days you're starting to see guys do that. For example, is Greg McDermott at at Creighton. He's going to stay there for his whole time, you know, for the rest of his career and not move up to a bigger job. And that's a smart thing to do. And Archie probably could have stayed at Dayton and become their greatest head coach, like,

you know, of all time. I like he knows how to coach. He's just not good at the big program, things that Indiana needed. And at least I believe that's the case. I think he knows basketball. I think he knows how to coach. And I think his teams play tough basketball. Sometimes guys hit their ceiling and there's just, you know, and you send them back down there and they'll probably do pretty well. But yeah, it it wasn't necessarily a method or a type

of coach problem. It was the specific coach at the specific place. And now you have debris. I you know, at first it was a name a little bit out. And I'm, I'm as guilty as anybody else. You get kind of caught up in the big names. You, you, you look at those things, you know, I had my eyes in other areas. So I'm just like, oh, OK, like let's the. But the more I dig into it, it does feel like a good fit and and it feels like debris could

have some real success here. I like a lot of what I saw at Drake, you know, of ex's and Joe's did a really good breakdown about, you know, the number of wins that a program has had and how somebody brings it up. Are you looking like Archie, like Dayton was already averaging? The numbers are not right here. Like, you know, twenty wins a season and he got him to 23.

So like he has a three win gap. Drake was just when he got there and he you know, it's like a 15 win differential and part of that's like maybe that's why McCaskill was doing so well at Drake. You know, he he maybe on that coattails don't know. But then what what really got me is the West Virginia thing. When you really dug into it, it's like, because initially it's like, man, we're getting a guy who didn't even make the tournament last year.

But it it's like, this is a team that had 100% turnover, like 100%. And that's why I think it's funny. Now everyone's freaking out about us in the portal. A, it's like this stuff will get figured out. Some people might come back like now is not the best time to take a snapshot of what your thoughts are on the program. But B, if anybody can do it, that guy just did it in West Virginia. I think we have more resources and a better talent pool to to

cultivate from. And he just got a team that probably should have been in the tournament at West Virginia. And oh, by the way, two of his best players got hurt during the season and he still was able to do it. And he should have been in the tournament, by the way, they they no argument that they should have been on it, right? So I'm I'm pretty bullish on on what I'm seeing from devries thus far. I'm curious your thoughts.

Yeah, No, I I think that, you know, you look at track record first of all, he was an assistant at Creighton in which is one of the most consistent programs in college basketball and they do a really good job. He was there and the. German coaching tree is turning into a very solid tree. And he was there for like 17 years. I mean, you know, he was like a big part. It's not like this guy. He's only, it's crazy when you look at his resume that he's only 49 because it's 17 years as

an assistant. And he picked his spot with Drake and saw a program that I think that he knew he could develop and he did a really good job of doing that. I mean, as you said, like the the turn around there is dramatic for them. And then to move to West Virginia, which one, I think 8 games last year and take him to 19 without two of your best players. I mean, crazy turn around. The guy knows college

basketball. If you want to emulate a program that's a smaller program, Creighton's a hell of one because they're fun to watch. They play a great style of basketball. They're always good. They're always consistent. So I think that, yeah, I was happy with it. And if you look at, you know, where he went with Drake, let's just use that as an example because that's the longest term. His first year won 24 games. They went 12 and six in conference.

Second year struggled 8 and 10. And that was the COVID year. So he didn't know post season, but then 15 and 3:13 and 5:15 and 5:16 and 4:00 in conference. He against the teams he knows he beats them. He had a 70% winning percentage at, at at in conference at Drake, 73% overall. And then he went to West Virginia. Again, West Virginia was a a, a down program and people are upset. A good thing is like when a coach leaves and people are upset.

That's a good clue. And again, to win 19 games without your top scorer, which is his son and another top player, to win 19 games like that, I mean, Indiana would lose a player and fall apart, you know, and he was able to keep them together. I think it's it's. I would also say too that that West Virginia team finished the season with with those injuries, they were still the 14th best defensive efficiency in the country. With two of your guys gone, the offensive was only 133rd.

But I I think that. They lost their best offensive players. They lost your best players, but you still had one of the best defensive teams in the country, and that's something that, you know, we've just continue to harp on on Crimson cast. I hate to be all, you know, wonky metrics guy, but you look at the teams that have success in March year in year out, they are just unbelievably efficient in offense and defense. They are in the top 25 of that

metric almost every single. Time. There's very few outliers of teams that are not in one of those, not in the top 25 in both of those categories. And normally when you see a team that's outside of the top 25 in a category, they are one or two in the other, so. Right now at the Final Four. Right now at the Final Four. Auburn's third in offense, 8th in defense. Florida second in offense, 10th in defense. Houston, 10th in offense, first in defense.

Duke first in offense, 4th in defense, all in the top ten of. I'm sure it would be the same. Exactly and and so. So, so the fact that, and you look at his defensive numbers when he was at Drake, they were starting to, you know, 113th, 101st, 40th, 73rd, like he's kind of in that range. He's pulling it. You know, you're not going to

have a top 10 defense year. You're out at Drake, but the first year you have some resources you get there at West Virginia. I'm I'm very interested to see what he does, how he pulls things. But I, I think there's a world where we could have a quick turn around in year 1. I don't think we're going to win the Big 10 year one, but I don't know.

I don't see why we couldn't have, you know, be 789 seed in the tournament in. The year I expect the tournament team next year and, and I'll say this, I think also at West Virginia when he got some major conference resources, he started recruiting really well too. I mean their class, their class of. West Virginia than we had. Yeah, their class of West Virginia was really nice. I don't know if any of them are going to come.

I mean, I know it's, you know, because a lot of that is ties to picking the right assistants and the insistence having relationships. So Chester Fraser, I know did a really good job recruiting for them. I would, I would have loved to have Chester Fraser at Indiana. I know some people have a problem with that, but I would have loved it. So I think that, you know, some of that, you know, I don't know if those guys are all just going to follow him. I, I, we'll see how that plays

out. But yeah, he had a great recruiting class when he finally got some resources, that was a very encouraging to me as well. It's not only what he did on the court, but like the fact that like he moved from Drake to West Virginia and wasn't going after Drake players. He moved up and, and, you know, knew what he needed to target to win at that level and got the guys.

Unfortunately, they, most of them probably won't end up at West Virginia, but you know, and you, you look at who they're attached to in the transfer portal early and it's the guys you want, you know, and, and again, transfers don't always work out, you know, because you're, you're not, I feel like the, the net is so wide with high school players, you can kind of pick and choose and get the team you want.

Whereas with transfers, you're kind of like, well, he doesn't fit exactly, but he kind of does like, let's see how this works, you know, and, and it can sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. But I think that, yeah, that was that was what impressed me the most is not only on court stuff, but it looks like he knows how to set up a program infrastructure and get the guys he wants to get. Yeah, we got a son. That's a good thing. Yeah, I thank God that his son was like, yeah, Dad, I'll play

for you. You know, how could you imagine? Like, I'm not going to go to West Virginia anymore, but I'm definitely not coming Indiana with you. I'm. I'm done with this guy as a head coach. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm bullish, I really am. I've I've come around and of course we're all fans. We're going to be, but I I think it seems like for the first time we are kind of going in that right direction.

You know, the only thing I would say, you know, Archie was a little bit awkward in his press conference debris definitely felt like, you know, he's a coaching coach guy. He's not a rah rah guy, but it doesn't it dude, it's one press conference, but it doesn't feel like he's scared of of the spotlight or the moment. It just seems like he's not, you know, going to have great press, you know, moments.

But look at it too. Look at, you know, Signetti is awesome and he has good sound bites, but he's also a little bit like he's not. Great, you know. On things either he's kind of wonky with his stuff as well. Yeah, he's not a, he's not a media darling. Like he, he, he said some funny stuff and so people latched onto it, you know, the Google Me stuff. But other than that, like, name anything, he said. You know, he's not exactly a a charismatic guy, whereas Tom

Crean was the exact opposite. Super charismatic. But you know, it's about how they are able to connect with the players is what matters. And yeah, you got to get the fans on your side and everything, but winning is how you get the fans on your side. Yeah. And that's what I said is in the end, this, it's the, it's such the easy answer, but it is the answer.

I, I like what I'm seeing. This will all be judged in 36 months and in 36 months, if we are winning and we're, you know, looking to be a protected seed most years out of not, then this is going to work. And if we're not, then it's not. And you know, unfortunately I'm at the point now 46. I've been through too many coaches. Like I'm a fan. I'm going to root for it. I want things to go well, but I'm not going to be so tied emotionally to the coaches until they do something to make me

tied to them. And it just is kind of my feeling. But I think in two years we'll have the answer and we'll all inherently know after the next two seasons because I think everybody knew after the first two years of Archie. Everybody knew probably after the 1st 2 1/2 years, Woodson will say, you know where it was going that that'll be our answer. Right now it's all just kind of window dressing. But I I think we'll know that answer in two years.

It's not the fun, sexy answer. Be like you can pick one or the other, but we'll know in two years. Yeah. And I think that that's that's true. And that's where we are with Ambi's. I mean, I think that what you want as a fan, I mean, you want success, but at this point you just want hope. And I do feel like it's a lot lighter around Indiana basketball in the last couple days. I think the big thing is you got a guy with a track record, You got a guy who's done this in

college basketball. And I think people forgot how important that was when Mike Woodson was hired, you know, like, but I also. Love to hear he's a grinder. Like he's always out there working and like just knowing that seeing him at the state title game, working recruits, like it's just like, OK, it feels like we're kind of we're kind of back. And this guy is I go to bed knowing like I think he's out there hustling his ass off every day to try and get players. I'm not sure.

I haven't felt that in probably five years. And look, there are going to be bumps in the road. I'm not trying to tell people that, you know, we're on the we're on the gravy train now. But I mean, there's going to be bumps in the road. I mean, every coach has those. You know, you lose the game, you should have won and, and all that. But I do feel like the trajectory of the program is going to start heading up at this point. And you do have to give somebody

time to implement their systems. So I know 'cause I'm, I'm sitting here saying, well, if you know, after year 1, fire him. No, but, but I, you know, but I do think you need, you need to give somebody time to develop what they want to develop and go where they want to go. And as long as that feels positive the whole way, I think people will forgive it a little bit if it's a struggle in the beginning. But I don't expect him to

struggle greatly off the jump. As long as they're able to have some luck in the transfer portal, maybe get a couple different high school recruits in. It sounds like Sicily's all in, but, you know, trying to get, you see if there's anybody else who wants to to switch up. But at the same time, he has to get some of the right players, has to, you know, get his stuff together. And this roster, I think in Year 1 will probably not be what it

looks like moving forward. But I don't think it's going to be far off. And, and I think that this can be a competitive team next year. The the last thing I'll say, you know, you, you, you don't always know after you kind of know after year two or three. But year 1, you know, it would be nice just to have a good first year because Archie again came out against Indiana State at home, lost 90 to 69 and then quietly like two games later lost to Seton Hall, 84 to 68.

And it's like, man. And then and then, you know, don't get shellacked by Duke and Michigan and Louisville and then lost to IPFW. And then that was by by the middle of December, you have lost to Indiana State, Indiana and IU Fort Wayne. Both those two games were at home. You lost, my God, 92 to 72. You lost by 20. I mean I. Mean that was where they hit like 20 threes, wasn't it? Or something like that, but. I think we're all looking around like what what's going on, what's going on?

Like this was supposed to be different. And then, you know, Woodson started off better but did finish that first season. They lost five of seven. And you know, they they made the tournament. But I would say going into the Big 10 tournament, they were not in the NCAA tournament. They were, they were on life support. And even in that game against Michigan, they were kind of zoned out for the 1st 15

minutes. They have, like I remember saying, I think they have 48 good minutes of play in the Big 10 tournament. It was like 8 minutes against Michigan, 40 against Illinois, and then they played pretty well against Iowa. But all that to be said, there was a lot of warning signs in the first year of both Archie and Woodson. And so that is my hope is that under De Vries in the first year we have we don't have one of those warning signs. There's not A5 game losing

streak. There's not just an ass kicking to a state rival that's not named Purdue at home. You know, I hope we can just have a first year where it's like, all right, this feels like we're, we're actually moving in the right direction. Yeah. And, and I think, yeah, I, I think that we won't. I, I, I just, you know, there might be a, there might be a rough game or two, but I don't think it's going to be, the message is going to be as clear as it was with those other guys.

So, yeah, I, I think that what you want from year 1 is just the team to feel like they're not going to be in every game. You're going to have a blowout here or there, like randomly. I mean, that just happens in the Big 10 these days. But I think that what you want is just a feel like this team is competitive and can compete at a Big 10 level and be trending in that right direction as you get other players.

And also you want to land some recruits, you know, to have the hope for next year too, instead of having it feel like you are resetting the roster every single year, which I know it happens a lot in college basketball these days. But you want to have that core of players who's coming in and building. And then you're just supplementing from the transfer portal as opposed to wiping the slate clean every year, which is what it where it's felt like we've been the last couple years.

Agreed. One date to note, I was just pulling this up a game that would be nice, a good way to start this off December 20th, 2025 IU Kentucky and Rupp Arena. That's it's a tough, it's a tough. Putt I am so I'm trying to go so bad. Oh really? I'm going to try and go yeah I'm working on it. Have you fun? We'll see. I need to.

I've got my dad and I. Used to, even if you don't go to the game, drive down to the neighborhood and go to the bar and watch with fans or something, that'd be a good I'm going to pitch that as a back home network event. Let's do it. I love that idea. Let's do a back home network event around the the game at rough. Even if you can't go to the game like, you know, get a bar, meet up at a bar. OK, there, there we go. We'll do it. We'll we'll ask Galen to probably do all the work and

we'll just stick around. It's. The copilots, not pilots. Not pilots, Ryan. It's been awesome man. Love having you on. It's great talking with you. Catch Ryan on Assembly Call. You guys got to promote any good Assembly Call stuff coming up? We're going to do something this week. We haven't decided, but keep it, keep it tuned to our Twitter account. We'll, we'll, we'll mention it and we'll send it out in the e-mail and everything. But yeah, we're, we're trying to do 1A week right now.

Everybody schedules a little bit in flux, but we're trying to trying to nail down once a week. We're going to get together and just talk about everything that's going on. I'm also excited to know who gets emergency pods when they sign with you with us or when we get recruit flips like it. That's always a fun thing in this time of year is like, oh, we got somebody and it, you know, I, I famously don't pay a

ton of attention. I pay a little more attention to the transfer portal but it's like oh if assembly calls doing a emergency pod. This. Is a good signing. It's good, yeah. Yeah, so hopefully we get like 4 emergency pods. And we really shouldn't should rename that cause emergency makes it sound negative. It should be like excitement pod. Like I don't know. We'll we'll I'll Jared and I'll spitballs.

Workshop that the only thing I'll say to you to to pass on to Jared is like it would be fun when when Tucker Devries actually announces. I know it's all just like assumed it hasn't actually happened. You should do an emergency pod. For that, yeah, just for that. Like we got this player, man, he could, he could shoot. He could shoot. Just go at it, Ryan, awesome having you check him on assembly call. They're doing fantastic stuff as is everybody on the back home

network. I appreciate everybody for listening. It's been fun. And with that copilot to wrapping up, thank you guys for listening. Until next time, this is Scott signing off.