You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Cast, Galen Clavio, Scott Caulfield joining you here. It is the 9th of February, Indiana coming off another loss in basketball and just an all around kind of odd day in the hall as Indiana drops a game to Michigan and you had the kind of weird. Coach name again, I forget. Yeah, no, it's, it's escaping me right now.
But but no, just a kind of an interesting vibe is settled in with this and we're going to talk about what it means as we move forward here through these last six weeks or so of the season. Obviously, we had a great day yesterday. We'll talk about that in just a
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So anyway, let's talk about first of all, the event yesterday that we had it was a tremendous one at the upstairs pub. Scott and I were there during the game, breaking in in the middle of commercial breaks to talk about what was going on. We had a nice collection of fans there, a lot of everybody being an IU fan except for one or two Michigan people and then several Crimson cast fans, which was really gratifying to to see and to get to meet those folks.
And then afterwards, Scott had to take off, but the Assembly call crew stopped by. We had Tony Adrani there and we had Mike and Bob from the X's and Joe's podcast, Kathy from doing the work. Just a, you know, a large number of our friends in the back home network there and we had a nice hour or so Long live show. The bar was packed. There were a lot of people there shots. You guys had more fun when I was gone? Well, you know, we everybody, literally everybody's like, is
Scott still here? And he was, he was not. I had to tell you them that you left. It was sad so, but it was a great event and I and I. Played well, I just didn't win but. So you know, well, I'm sorry to hear that. No, we. Different podcasts, different. We'll talk about coaching changes there. There you go. But it was a fun watch the the game. I mean, there were several long moments when it kind of felt like last year's live podcast when Indiana just could not compete against Penn State.
This one had a little bit of a different script and it highlighted to me kind of the difference between last year's team and this year's team. Last year's team lacks high end talent and also didn't really know how to play hard consistently or or really what they were executing, which led to a lot of blowouts. This year's team, there haven't been that many of those. They've been in a lot of these games, they've lost, but they're still losses.
They're more competitive losses because I think the talent baseline level is higher this year than it was last year. But the same morass that the IU basketball has found itself in was it was in display on this one.
And even though Indiana did a good job of going on a big run in the last quarter of the game, essentially, they just couldn't quite get over the hump, Scott. And so they end up losing in the end, 70 to 67. Anthony Leal hits a three that a lot of people found relevant as the the line on the game was 3 1/2 for Indiana and they would be only losing by three points. I would have loved to have had the the the game watch in Vegas. Oh my God, and. Like people were just like, ah,
it's over. No. And then yes, on the other side, you know, this the Maryland game and the Purdue game all kind of had the feeling of the, the, the parable of, you know, the dog that caught the car. And it's like they, they, Indiana is able to get to that point where they get to the very end. And then it's like, oh, oh, what do we do now? Like, like we're here inside, Like what? And we look very discombobulated at the end of games, I think is
a fairway to say. And you saw it again here where the, as you mentioned, like there was a moment in the first half where like, whoa, this is just going to be a complete drubbing. Indiana fought back. Indiana made it a game. Indiana kind of went through the second-half doing exactly what you want, like getting within 10, getting within 7, getting within 5.
And then it became winning time. And that they a lot of those efficiencies and a lot of when they were playing with kind of purpose it it, it went away in the last couple minutes. Just look like a team that wasn't able to close the deal, which is what a team who's lost, you know, six in five, five in a row and, you know, eight of nine or whatever that that's what a team looks like when they can't, when they do that, you know.
We've, we've talked a lot this year about the streakiness that Indiana plays with both good and bad. And I wish, you know, so if you go to the, if you go to Ken Palm, he has these the charts. So I'm going to show this to our, our folks that are watching on YouTube and Spotify, just so you know what I'm talking about. Most of you have seen these before, but these wind probability graphs, they basically have the money SPN as well.
But the difference about the wind probability graphs that Ken Palm has is he also has taken to including these little blue lines that don't indicate runs there were. I wish that we could chart like how many runs of 10 or more points different teams have in the country 'cause it feels like Indiana both leads in those types of runs and leads. And given those giving up those types of runs.
They had an 11 O run for Michigan in the first half, followed by an 11 O run for Indiana, followed by a nineteen to three run by Michigan. And then you get to the second-half and Indiana goes on the 12 two run and that gets him back in the game. And it's just like, it's such a a frustration as a fan knowing how much talents on the team, Scott, when they are so beholden to these spells where they can't do anything right. It feels like on either end of
the floor. And then they snap into it and they'll play for like a 5-7 minute stretch. And you're like, that team that I'm watching would probably be contending for the Big 10 title. But that team only shows up about 6 minutes a game. And unfortunately, this was another example of that. And as you said, like in this case, they actually got back to the point where they were in the game, had a chance to win, and it just fell apart again because Michigan executed and Indiana didn't.
Yeah, I, I mean it, it's kind of like I'm, I'm almost done with the post mortems. I mean, you're right. And like trying to figure it out is, you know, whatever, whatever this coaching staff is doing it because it's, it's been going on for two or three years. So it's not just, and you know, most of these players, a lot of them are new players who weren't here last year in the same problems were here last year.
You know, it's it's a system where either the players don't know what to do when they're confused or that there haven't been enough, you know, situations where you know, they're they're focused in. But you know, the in the end, if you take kind of the big picture view it, it seems very specific to Indiana. But I think if you looked at a lot of the teams that were on the bubble or or out of the bubble, they probably have a similar vibe where it's like,
man, we have moments where we look really good. You know, if you're on the bubble, that's probably where you are. You can play pretty good. You just you have deficiencies in certain areas. You know, if you're not even in the NIT discussion, those are teams that probably never looked good at all. Right. Well, and I think also when you look at this, it's a how do I put this?
This team is, I think they're so fragile because like a lot of the times the runs, good or bad, are triggered by 1 substitution, which seems to either snap things into place or pull the string on whatever has been working. And you know, this was obviously this has been a criticism for a while with Woodson, it was a criticism even in the first two years when the effects were not as pronounced.
And but you know, people will be like, why are we doing a hockey line change the 12 minute mark or whatever? Like there was this, there's been those types of criticisms. There's been a little bit of of alteration of that. But it feels like there's just so little team cohesion that when one thing upsets that balance, you fall apart on both ends of the floor. No one really knows what they're
doing. But what makes this team so weird is that then they will have moments where it goes the opposite direction and they'll they'll be playing very average and then they'll have a substitution in and then they go on a run. You know, that when they've been able to time that with the very end of a game, they've won some of those games. You know, it, it kind of
happened to some degree. You know, there was, well, that Ohio State game was actually more of an indicator of the, the the complete up and down that you'll get sometimes with this team. But they let the run up at the end of that regulation that allowed Ohio State to take it into overtime. But Indiana was able to pull themselves back in. It's like they almost have to get all these pieces just right at just the right moment. And it's rarely lined up for them this year.
It's not a good way to play basketball. It's not a good way to to strategize about basketball. You do see teams win sometimes. And if you ever look at that luck, that luck statistic on Ken Palm, Indiana's actually been fairly lucky this year relative to how they've actually played because they've won or been close in games that statistically they shouldn't. But they're still not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.
And you know, you lose your 10th game and it's not even the middle of February. It wasn't a very good season. And as you said, Scott, there's not a whole lot left to do from a post mortem perspective as far as the game. But I do think like you look at where Indiana's at right now, 5 losses in a row, as you know that they didn't lose five in a row at all last year. They didn't.
I was actually going to bring, sorry, yeah, but in but you know, we're going to Michigan State, which again now like every Rd. arena in the Big 10, like we got to, you know, we got to preface it, it's a place we don't play well, but we haven't played well in Michigan State. That's this is this is the lowest win probability we have the rest of the season. So it's very likely we will lose 6 Big 10 games in a row. I was going to play the when was the last time that happened?
But it's not a fun game 'cause it's happened like. But it hasn't happened under Woodson. It did happen in 2019. Well, with Archie, although you should like it also brings back like. It also happened in 2021, you know, And then this is the thing people forget, like in Archie's last year. He had he lost his last six games, including the Rutgers game at the end of the year. I was saying regular season, yes. So when you count the play out, yes, let's start. Yeah, you are right.
Let's split hairs and how bad we've been different years. But I my thing was more it's happened in the regular season in 2019, which is Archie's second year, which, you know, maybe goes in the next. We should be paying closer attention to these things early in coaching careers that you had a six game and it's like, but then you know, yeah, multiple times during the Korean those early years, But it's just. Well, even even in Korean's last year, they lost five in a row
and six of seven. There's a lot that are really close. And I think, I mean, here's the thing, all three of those program teams or, you know, the where, where the IU was at were broken in some, some fundamental way. And I think that that's what we've unfortunately, as IU basketball fans come to learn, is that losing 5 games in a row or more is an indicator that
your team is broken. And it's like, well, no crap, of course, But the, but it, it's, it's interesting and watching how the different levels of breaking have affected IU over time. But in each of those 3, like you knew when that five game losing streak happened at the end of Crean's last year that this was probably going to be it. Like it wasn't 100% certain but it felt over.
By the time that fifth loss rolled in, you know, certainly, you know, Archie, you were, you were just talking about some losses this year. I was about to bring this point up. I'm looking at the 2019 Ken Pom page. And you're like, you were talking about the Maryland game. Like, man, I don't remember losing to Iowa and Purdue back-to-back. I'm like, oh, this is a 2019 page.
But it's, it's so bad that like I'm looking at Ken Pom's 2019 page and just assuming it's this year's page, 'cause there's just so much red and not enough green. And it's like, that's a bad spot where seasons like this should be such outlines. That I can't like I immediately know what page I'm looking at. The trouble is all these page start looking the same. Sorry, no, everything,
everything blends together. And it is it is wild that three coaches is different as Tom Crean, Archie Miller and Mike Woodson have had four different reasons their teams fall apart at at this rate towards the end. And so that's where I look at yesterday's game and you know, I was not in the arena. You were not in the arena. There were a lot of people that we knew that were in the arena. Whoever counted what it was
like. And it was like it wasn't a hostile environment, but you know, people cheered. They got loud when they need to get loud. It did feel, from what some of my friends told me, that it, it felt less emotionally fraught, like the edge had been taken off slightly. But I, I think I believe it was may have been Zach Osterman who wrote this in his piece today. But it just kind of felt like especially we, we felt this in the bar a little bit as well. And I know it certainly mirrors
feelings I have had. It's like you just want the season to kind of be over at this point. It's like there's, there's not really a, in most people's minds, a realistic trajectory for anything meaningful to come from the season. Everybody looks and feels
exhausted. You know, Woodson, when being asked about like, where the team's psyche was at, like really sounded like the he was just completely befuddled by how not connected the team is. And it's at this stage you're, you know, I think everybody's aware of the shortcomings of the team. You see it regularly here and it's almost more frustrating that they're not just getting blown out, that they're in these games, but they're not coming up
with ways to win. It just kind of highlights that extra 10% that other teams, even teams that don't feel like they have any more talent than Indiana, have been able to put together. So sorry, like and and you know,
I agree with all of that. You know, the the comp that's being being made is to the two 2006 season, which you and I both live through, you know, and and there is the comp there where, you know, you had Davis on about this time at at that time of year, you know, do the I'm sick game. And then he was announced that, you know, he's going to be
resigning. And then, you know, they lose to Illinois, but then it's like, oh, they win four in a row and kind of salvage this even go to the tournament. I I think there's a key difference isn't being talked about 2-2 pieces there. 1 is that two of those four games at the end were against teams that were ranked that year of 100 a hundred plus in Kenpom. Purdue was 150 fifty. Yeah, Purdue used to suck at one point. Yes, it is true. And then Penn State was 116.
So you, you played some soft teams. But the other thing is, you know, there's a huge difference here. And I I was not there. I wasn't part of the team, but that was a young coach in Mike Davis who knew he had other coaching jobs ahead of him. And I'm sure is like, all right, I have a platform. I'm I'm I'm being fired from Indiana, but I'm going to be hired somewhere else. Like this is now my resume tape to get another job. I'm going to show what I can do.
And you know, he he kind of that team rallied here. You have a guy in Woodson, it's like this is the end. I mean, he might be an assistant in the NBA. Like he's not going to get another head coaching job in college. He's not going to get another head coaching job in the NBA. So there's not like this. I really got to show what I can do so I can, you know, get the Atlanta Hawks job again, like this is it.
And and whether he gets an assistant job is going to be based on nothing to do the next couple weeks is going to going to make that happen or not happen one way or the other. And I think it's a huge difference because there's a huge mindset of how they're going to be going into it. All the saying, I don't see this team. I I'd be surprised this team having that four or five game
like win streak at the end here. I don't think anybody quite knew how IU was going to react and I think a lot of people optimistically assumed it was going to be a similar kind of thing. It just looked like the same team as it has, you know, and I and I really do think that it's a different era of basketball. And that's not a criticism, you know, but in terms of roster movement, you know, you could yeah, all these guys are like, I'm like, I'm putting my tape
out there. Well, but you can like you can move somewhere else And and it's not. And we saw that with so that with Louisville last year. We we've seen it with other programs. So I just, I don't know if what happened 20 years ago is really going to continue to be relevant when it comes to these sorts of scenarios. Everybody's eyes were on the crowd, like how was the crowd going to react? And it sounded like the crowd reacted just fine.
And so now you've got this weird almost void that you step into as an IU fan. Well, and going off the crowd, because I'll just say for what we saw at the upstairs, like you mentioned this, you've mentioned this the last couple years at our live events, but it it I, I need to restate it here that it's like I I walk away from this, seeing how I use crowd reactive at Assembly Hall, how the crowd was at the upstairs, which is people were cheering. We're chanting like the hit hit
threes. We were going nuts. It's like these fans of which I'm one of and you are too, like just we deserve better. Like we just, we deserve some wins. Like this is a fan base that is
just continually giving. It feels like and just and maybe deserve isn't the right word, but it's just like, man, for, for as bad as things have been and for another year, we're at this point, you know, to me, venom and vitriol is, is justified after what fans have been through and they're they're still always kind of coming back with a positive. Eye it just sucks that it's like it continues to feel like Lucy
in the football. I it's, it's just, it's just been, as you said, it's been a, a difficult fandom in that there's, I think I know we've talked about this in previous years, like there just haven't been many rewards for being an IU fan. It'll at least not the last couple of years. And we've talked about it in terms of like there's not a lot of marquee wins outside of, of Woodson's teams being competitive against Purdue. But you go back to the Archie Miller era and even that wasn't
happening there. You know, you, you've had these travel avoid, you know, these, these trips where people are going to Atlantis or going to Atlanta or going to New York or going to Vegas. And those haven't been rewarding either. Yeah. And and so it does feel like I don't know that people are going to necessarily be any kinder if the team doesn't play well.
It just kind of feels awkward now as opposed to people feeling like they can't root for IU because if they're rooting for IU then it might sustain the current. Trajectory of the program and not force change that is clearly very much needed and that is that's what that IU statement felt like is you know in the NBA you can root for law like it's now normal to root for losses because then you're going to get a better draft like it's like let's get Cooper flag all right
great. We let's lose more and that's very standard in the NBA. It, it that's kind of what the way, you know, moving into the discussion about what, you know, the IU athletic department did on Thursday and Friday, It's like, that's very much to be what that statement felt like as you read between the lines. It was like, hey, stop booing us. Like we're going to do something. Don't worry. And we'll you know, we, we will like you don't need to root for losses. You don't need to be mean.
We're going to do something. We just can't do it right now. And that's kind of what was going on. And that's kind of the spot we're in now where it's like, OK, we can, we can now be normal fans again, rooting for wins. Because even if this team goes on a run, we, we know that, you know, we're going to see some changes.
Yeah, I mean, the the if you haven't read the Greg Doyle piece in the Star, it's it's a wild ride in terms of, you know what what he alleges the breakdown of things was over the couple of days leading into the Michigan game with Woodson. Like wanting to stop coaching right away and then that not working out for financial reasons and then ending up coaching. And it's just it's a very weird thing right now because it's there. And I tried to talk about this on that little miniature podcast
I recorded yesterday. Whatever the actual scenario was behind the scenes, it does not feel like everybody's got this the best interests of the program's trajectory at the forefront. And you get you understand that to some degree, not saying that I. Kind of don't because like that was the whole idea of hiring and. Let me let me clarify. What I mean by that is people are trying to watch out for
themselves, it looks like. But also, you know, I think there's a a realization it, it appears from the way that athletics has handled this, that there's not really an easy way to fix this. And so it has to be allowed to be played out on the court if this is going to be how things maintain. And that doesn't mean it's going to be necessarily pretty or anything like that as it moves forward. But that seems to be the
circumstance. And that's just going to make for a very uninspiring run down the stretch. Because if if you've if you've made the decision, you're going to move on. And then the coach is like, well, maybe we should just move on now. But you're still watching that person coach. And again, this is just what's going off of what the Doyle article or alleged occurred. Like that's a really awkward situation for a basketball program.
And it's a really awkward situation for fans because look, at the end of the day, we can talk about tournament aspirations, we can talk about where teams are in the polls. We can talk about all of these higher layers, like where the expectations should be. But at the core of the basketball experience, you want to see your team play well and
win games. And that's been in very short supply in the Big 10. This is not a, a, a Stew that's going to produce like a lot of good moments for Indiana here over these last seven games plus the Big 10 tournament. And there's not now you've had the announcement, but there's not really another out. There's like now we just have to wait. And fans are going to get more and more impatient if they continue to see like a the lack of execution, consistency and all these things that are
leading to these losses. It's just going to be a very weird scenario here the next month and 1/2. No, I agree. I mean, I by my parents got divorced later, you know, when I was in like middle school, high school, but they they went through like a four year separation period, but coming back in and then layer on top of that, they owned a business together, which they still owned
after they got divorced. It was like, it's kind of like watching that where it's like there's these moments of like, well, we're going to get divorced, so we're not doing anything for the next three weeks. And it's like, OK, well, this is this is going to be an awesome three weeks. I'm going to my friend's house. Like unfortunately I can't like I can't just go to Auburn and be like, well, hey, guys, I'm a fan now. What's up? Where where's the gear?
Home field will take care. Home field could take care of you in these situations. But like, that's kind of what it feels like to me is like, this is when I would just go to my friend's house for Thanksgiving because it's like this, this is weird here. I'm. I'm going over there. Yeah. I mean, there are no outs. And it it felt like this was also going to be the high watermark of kind of fans giving this team a Mulligan, so to speak.
And again, I'm not I'm not saying that booing or any of that stuff is we continue to say that like is right. But you know, fans who have paid a premium for tickets for years. There's also a part where I'm like, fans have a say too. Like it's just some point. I think that's partially what some of this vitriol is, is that fans, especially IU fans, sometimes feel like we're just not heard.
And not that we need to be heard, not that we're like, we are part of the process and that like, you need donors and you need people to buy tickets. And it's like we're always being blamed for everything. We're always like, you got to be louder. You got to show up earlier, You got to be there and oh, by the way, you got to pay more money.
And and then when fans are like, Hey, this feels like we're going down a wrong decision here with coach, you know, XY or Z, it's like shut up and and literally sometimes we're being told by the coach to shut up and be a real fan and or chill or chill. Yes, and that people get pissed at that. It's like I'm tired of just being a Piggy Bank at times. And I'm just I'm just I'm voicing kind of I think the
overarching concern. I think, you know, this is one thing that IU has to deal with is you've kind of treated your fans poorly for years and you've treated them, you know, so you need to just kind of live through this and then make the right, you know, make make some good decisions. But yeah, it's I think that the rest of the home games are going to be increasingly more interesting and probably
increasingly more funky. I would say if the losses continue to pile up and Purdue could be a wild sight because the the aftermarket as somebody who owes has tickets, the secondary market is still really good on those tickets.
And I wonder if it's not people from Bloomington, but people from West West Lafayette. And it could be a very pro Purdue crowd in Assembly Hall. Yeah, I mean, I we see this in football sometimes in past years in the dark times, which was well, pretty much all of the times. But but no, it's it is weird to watch it with basketball And look, everything you said, yes, I think fans have voiced frustrations, you know, online, reasonable fans.
We're not talking about the lunatic fringe about, you know, it's and it's not so much I think that fans don't feel heard. It's that fans feel like the priorities of the program have not been being one of the best programs in the country. A lot of lip service paid to that, a lot of money, but not a lot of let's make sure that we're on, you know, part of the the forefront of college basketball in terms of style play, in terms of recruits, in
terms of approach. And as it, you know, again, we talked about this before, but I think everybody was told, oh, things will be different this upcoming year and everybody bought into that in in the media, we talked about it. We try to take the approach that, well, maybe things will be different this time. But a lot of fans were skeptical and they're now not just watching their skepticism be
justified, but they are. I mean, at this point, you know, it's already we've all like it's January 11th was the Iowa loss and there's been one one point overtime victory since January 11th. And they have to go to Michigan State. So it's very likely you're going to have a an entire 30 plus days unless you win at Michigan State, which I'm not saying is impossible, but seems unlikely, right? That where you're just you're going to have one, one point overtime win.
And that's going to be the one thing that you can put in front of your fans and say, here's something to feel good about. And that was and and that was on Peacock. So like most people, right, you know, like most people were like, well, let's not even bother watching it. So. Maybe that maybe that's the reason you buy Peacock. It's like, hey, you should buy Peacock. You never know where our winds are going to come. But I mean.
One of the things I talked about at the live show yesterday was I do feel bad for younger fans. I mean people our age who've been fans since the 80s. There was obviously a lot of older fans in our audience that have been watching IU basketball for longer than that. We hear from many of those folks. There's just a, there's a frustration that's different at different levels.
The older fans lament the lack of, of fundamentals and, and, you know, and, and what they watched and how this doesn't really correlate with IU basketball. We just have been watching this backslide in terms of, you know, the program being stuck in neutral for over a decade. And it's like, well, when we came of age as basketball fans, it was the apex. And it's been a basically a
decline since then. And then it got younger fans for whom, and I've talked about this before, like, I don't know what's what is binding you to IU basketball. What moments are making you an IU basketball fan? These are this is not an inexhaustible reservoir of fandom. Like people need a reason to root for your team. And those reasons are almost always connected to moments. You know, the, the watch shot is like one of the few moments that people can point back to.
It's like getting a 15 year. It is but that, but that's why it's it's played over and over again because it's like there's that and there's like the the game day game against Michigan and there just haven't been a lot of moments that you would look at and say that was special. I my fandom, you're. Freshman right now, the freshman in your class when the watch shot happened, what they were in what grade? Well, they would have been pretty young. They would have been, they would
have not been. Some of them may not have been in a grade. No, we're talking about that was in 2000, December of 2011 and you know, freshman this year were born in 2000, what 2, 2007, 2008 in some cases they were. They were four or five, so. I I think I actually have the math wrong there, but no, I'm, I'm not that far off. Yeah, my. 18 My 2025 is 2007, so they were four. They were not in a grade. So that's, that's my point. And God, time, time moves fast and what's going on.
And so look, I'm, I, I want to stop this part of the conversation by saying the following. I'm glad Indiana and Woodson finally announced that they're going to make a move. And I'm glad that as much as we were concerned about this earlier, that whatever the prevailing feelings were in the room and, and, and I'm sure that'll come out later, the outcome was what it needed to be, which is that we've got to move on and go in a different direction. And that process has to start.
But I the fact that Indiana is in the state that they're in right now, where fans are likely just going to have to watch Indiana wallowing in this kind of neutral gear, not good enough to really punch through against any of the teams that are above them in the Big 10 pecking order. And discovering that you're placing the pecking orders like 13th, 14th maybe is that's going to be a real tough thing for a
lot of IU fans to digest. And so you're either going to have people kind of mass disconnecting or people are going to just continue to watch and just be continually frustrated over this next six weeks. It'll be fine. You know, it's not like we need to necessarily complain about it. It's just it sucks that this is the route that has to be taken and that it got to the point that it did. And I don't know how, I don't know how many more times.
And we talked about this and this, this is a nice transition point. Like it's why Indiana just absolutely has to get this higher, right? Because you're you're going to basically what make your fans watch a team limping to the finish line for the last two months, 2 1/2 months of the season. And then you better have somebody in the holster that you can bring out and say, here is the way forward.
This person will galvanized you. This person is, is going to be the the the key figure in the reorganization of Indiana basketball. It's a tall ask. And you're going to be coming off this period here where IU basketball looks the very same listless way that it's looked over the last several years, but maybe worse. Because it's a team that the fans really don't have much of an emotional connection with. It might be semantic.
I disagree in that you have to get it right this time, if only because after 20 plus years, it's, it's still a relatively solid fan base that's there that's showing up. I, I, I feel like they can get it wrong. And in a couple, your new coach is always going to give you a bounce. People are no matter who it is. I mean, Woodson was an interesting hire and we all found ways to justify why it was exciting.
I'm being semantic. I I think to me what IU has to do this time is just be more decisive. And I've said this a bunch of times, you it's hard to know why coaches work moving up and why they don't. You know, it's, it's like that, you know, why did you hire Signetti before? It's like, because guys like Signetti are hard. Like that's hard to tell. Like they try like Cam Cameron was theoretically supposed to be
a Signetti type and he wasn't. I mean, different, different profiles and all that, But you know, to me, it's like you have to be more decisive. I look at that 2019 season. It's like that losing 6 in a row in the big 10 in your second year should be a massive red flag. You know, and you, you look at Woodson, Archie, you know, the, the Korean is just a, is a, is a different example for different
reasons. But under both Woodson and Archie, a lot of the things that became massive issues in year 4 were real issues in year 2 if you were looking and paying attention. And that that's where I think Indiana needs to, I understand me. And the the flip side is we always look at Samson, take the other stuff aside. It's like by year 2, he showed that he was doing pretty well. Like when it works and you have the right coach, it clicks and it clicks early.
So that that would be my thing is I think they can mess up the higher. They just have to be decisive. They can't keep giving these long runways. I guess what I meant by saying they have to get it right is. You have to get fans back on board, but more importantly, you have to get donors on board. There has to be a, a galvanizing figure because Indiana's going to need donations for nil. They're going to need, they're going to need financial heft
behind things. You're probably going to have to, I mean, depending on who they end up hiring, you may have to pay a buyout that's significant to get the right person, but you need to pay the buyout to get the right person. This is one of those situations where I hear names thrown about and it's like, well, that person's too expensive because
they have this buyout. And it's like, look, the I use one of the few places where you could justify paying a large buyout for the right college basketball coach as opposed to rolling the dice on somebody that you weren't sure of. Now, as we've seen with some of the hires Indiana's made, there may be no such thing as a sure thing in the hiring process. But I do think that there's it's a different game now in terms of the resourcing and the way that recruiting works and how that
interacts with the money. And the fact that what you really need is someone who's got the the logistical capabilities of running a basketball program while also the basketball acumen and some of the other things can fill themselves in. Indiana has not always hired with those things in the forefront of their mind. And I just, you're right, like there's, there are still fans in proximity to the program paying
attention. My point is more that there's a there's a level of connectivity with the basketball program that you're going to really have to evaluate because of the fact that not only have you had a second year of really disappointing play, but you are also now largely severing with the past by, you know, essentially forcing out a former night player who was back here coaching the team and was serving as a bridge between the past and the future.
It's like, what is the the identity of Indiana basketball? What is it that Indiana basketball is is creating for itself as an identity? What does it want to be? I don't think that there's any definition for that except the new hire. The new hires decisions on identity of Indiana basketball are going to largely play into
what that identity becomes. That's why I'm saying like you have to get it right because Indiana above all else, I don't think can continue to go forward with this kind of listless identity list program that doesn't really have a calling card, doesn't really have an effective focus. And it's certainly possible to do that with the right hires. And you see the ones that have made sense with that across the
country. You look what Dan Hurley has done at UConn and re establishing an identity that that program had largely lost. You see what Rick Pitino has done in terms of establishing an identity at St. John's. You see what Nate Oates has done establishing an identity at Alabama where one did not exist before Bruce Pearl at Auburn. You know, these are the kinds of things that I think IU really has to think about the the coaching hires that have been made-up to this point haven't
worked for a variety of reasons. And that's not something that can hinder you from going out and doing what you need to do here. She's going to be interesting because I don't know how fans are really going to feel about it. And you see this in the responses we get or the unsolicited comments we get about who they should be going after. Nobody has a consensus idea of what Indiana's basketball coach should be or who they should be. I find that fascinating.
But that's why I keep saying like, they have to get this higher, right? Because they got to start lining up behind something that works and and that has just not happened over the last 10-15 years. That's a that's a agree with that very valid point. The the thing that I find I was thinking about this on the drive home yesterday and this morning was, you know, you, you look at the, the, the coaching hot boards that are popping up.
And I'm not going to dig into any of these names, but it's like you're seeing a lot of the same names, whether it's, you know, Cronin or Chris Beard or Todd Golden or, you know, Steve Alford still pops up on some of these, but that I'm going to use them as a point. Dusty Mays there. What's funny is in our lives, Galen, you know, these are not perfect archetypes, but IU has kind of hired all of these archetypes before at some point. So I'm going to go through it.
You know, you the one here that doesn't fit, you have Mike Davis, which is the assistant moving up. I don't I don't think we're going to move an assistant up unless you've hired Calvert Chaney, but you have the assistant moving up. You had Calvin Sampson, which is the great coach with a Final Four experience, but also has some baggage. There's guys on our list that look like that. You have Tom Creed, the great coach with Final Four experience with no bag, you know, no real
baggage there. You have Archie Miller, the young hotshot from a mid major. And then you have Mike Woodson, the alumni hire and also a former, you know, the NBA coach coming down. And and what's funny is layered on top of all of this is you have just I'm just in his own cat. You have Brad Stevens. It's like he's been there for all those the the savior that's not going to come. But it's just it is odd that as I'm looking at all of these, it's like, Oh, Chris Beard kind
of fits the Samson mold. And you're like all of the coaches that are on the hot board fit a coach that we've already kind of hired before and it hasn't worked. And I think this goes to kind of a point that you've talked about that I've talked about that, you know, you just have to get the right coach and the you know what that alchemy is. I think it's hard to figure out. But once you get the right coach, everything will be fine. You you said something in one of
your last pods. It's like totally click with me. I told you this yesterday too, that you know, all you heard about with IU footballs, all of these like inherent problems the program has. Like it can't do this because of, you know, because of fan support, because of facilities, because of where it is, because of recruiting base. It's like, you know, Signetti comes in and suddenly none of
those problems are there. She's like, hey, we're good and we're winning because I know what I'm doing. It's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you can look at Alabama basketball, same thing. It's like, oh, they're they're never going to be, you know, that the bad recruiting area and like that's all they care about is football. It's like NATO's can coach like guess what, they're doing pretty well.
And you see this all the time. Bruce Pearl is just going from place to place where basketball doesn't matter and just making it matter and winning. Pitino does it. So like. You have a good coach, you plug him in, it works. It just, it is interesting to me that we've tried all the different things and it still hasn't worked here, which just tells me we're just not hiring
the right coach. And when the right, you know, that's my positive feeling here is if and when we ever do plug in the correct coach, it, it, it is going to work and it's going to work well. But it's, it is, I just find that funny looking at the hot board and being like, we've already hired most of these archetypes before along the way. But I guess when you do hire 6 coaches and in 20 years, you have to take a lot of different kinds of swings.
Well, and I think the key is like archetype doesn't matter. It's the person that matters. And that's this is where I think it's you get caught up in, you know, you can look at a coach. And say, well, that person wouldn't work out here or that person wouldn't be interested in being here or that person would be perfect for this. And you don't really know.
Like so much of this is guesswork on the part of, of journalists, on the part of fans, you know, And there are there are some coaches who are doing really well in certain situations who I think would really struggle at Indiana because it's such a different type of job, because you have so much power, because you have so many financial resources and because there are expectations that you have to get things
moving. Now, I, I constantly go back to this idea that the expectations being the problem is not that like that's, that's ludicrous. It's, you know, when coaches haven't lived up to the expectations of the job to you'd think it'd just be like, well, in any other sporting endeavor, you're going to constantly complain about, well, no, there are expectations. The X's and Joe's show did a
great job on this. You know, you're going to feel the competitive fire of your rivals outperforming you, which is certainly happening with Indiana. You're going to feel like the general national competitiveness or it's like we know we should be in the Champions Classic or we should be the ones in the Sweet 16 or the Elite 8 getting all the air time and getting people talking about them.
And you know, coaches, I don't, I don't see why you would look at the success coaches have in certain places that have not had a lot of historical success and say, well, that's the coaches that are making that happen. But then turn around and look at places where you have the keys to success unless they are under resourced. Like say a UCLA is under resourced and say, well, that's the program's fault. So This is why it's going to be interesting.
And again, I guess it goes back to, from my perspective, IU fans, because of the way that this team has played in the last two years under Woodson and because of the general malaise and the fact that this is 9 straight years of 10 or more losses that Indiana suffered in in the season. Fans of I think fans are starting to believe that there really is something wrong with Indiana basketball, though. There really is something structurally wrong.
And it's hard to counter that by, you know, saying, well, look, all it takes is one higher or the right higher, as you were saying earlier, and that fixes it. That's what's going to make this end game so difficult with the Woodson departure. And it's also, again, why it's like, if you have an underwhelming hire, it may end up working out long term, but you got a lot of goodwill that you as an athletic department and as a program have to win
back from the fans. Because in their minds, it's not just this experience that is allowed to be perpetuated for too long, but it's the entire structure of the last nine years that have made it harder and harder to feel proud about being an Indiana basketball fan. Can I ask for a quick 2-3 minute mini lecture from Doctor GC about when you see an odd name on a national hot board? Why is it there?
Now obviously, I mean, you're you're some of the ones that you know, you know, Crispier makes a lot of sense. Just like there's some names, but it's like this makes sense to be there, you know, like, OK. And then all of a sudden you'll see a name. It's like, why is that name there? That's weird. Galen, please go. Well, you, you got to keep in mind, and we've talked about the the way that the information complex works in sports, but where does news come from?
Like where does source news come from? And in many cases, especially with national writers, I'm not talking about your local writers, because I think your local writers, they're a lot more invested in credibility when it comes to covering that team.
And for most national writers talking about the Indiana job as a drive by thing, you know, like it's not something that you're dedicating a ton of time to, but you've got coach's agents out there actively working the phones saying, oh, you know, this our our guy's a candidate or our guy got contacted through intermediaries. Now that guy ends up on a coaching search list with no intention of ever leaving his current job. But now his name is being
circulated. And if you're the the home team, the team that's got that coach, well, now you got to think, well, gosh, do we got to give him an extension or you do have to change is buy out something like that. So you do get a lot of maneuvering that happens there. You've also, and we're this happened actually with the last. This actually would have been, I think the coaching search in might have been the post Crean one, but it might have been the
Woodson one. I forget which one, but there was I talked with a pretty well known journalist who continued to insist that a certain former IU player was a a heavily considered candidate for the job. And that became part of the narrative. And then someone else was hired for the job. And it turned out that that coach had claimed that they were being heavily infer like considered within the the process and they were not actually.
And I obviously that that journalist was like, I'm not listening to that coach again on anything because they lied. But that happens consistently. And when you think about, well, these are sources and you, you might take it with a grain of salt, but if someone tells you something and they seem to be in a position of authority where they might know, you've got to at least give that some credence, even if it's being
used as a ploy. So the point in saying all this, and I think why Scott wanted me to talk about this is you, you really don't know much about who's actually interested, who the school is interested in. And Indiana over the course of the last several coaching searches has been very, they're very good at not communicating their hand.
We haven't always liked the cards that they've ended up playing, but they've been very good at not communicating like who's you know, who's in the finalists pool, who's gotten the
chance to to get talked about. And I've been around long enough now where, you know, having heard some backstories afterwards comparing what people thought was going on with what was actually going on. I my, my, my message to the listeners or the viewers is don't get too caught up in the hot board lists that you see on the message boards or coming from the athletic or from on three, because there's a whole
Stew of influences in there. And most of the people who are writing have very little direct input or understand input, but very little direct observation of the actual process that's going on. And just because something is heard does not mean that that thing that is heard actually is occurring. There may be other elements that are causing that to be communicated. I'm sorry I had to be so vague with it, but that's essentially
how the process works in macro. Yeah, No, no, it's it, it, it opened my eyes to it. I also think that the one I as I thought about it more and kind of talk to you like I think the other thing too is you can see sometimes see young coaches will try and get on there not to get a leverage point of their own school, which is good. But also you can leverage points like, hey, man, I've been named for the UCLA and the Anna job. Maybe I should get the Marquette job.
I'm not saying it's like a smart, but it's like you can work your way up and be like, it's kind of that like, Hey, I've dated all these hot girls. Like I need to now be in the, in the party kind of the George Costanza thing. Like if you've been named in a bunch of hot boards, like it's like, wow, I didn't realize he was that, that high up. It's like you're not, you're just naming yourself there.
But no, I, I think the other point is, you know, we, we've seen this with football, we've seen it with the higher. You know, Dolson's made a couple of hires now Indiana keeps this stuff very tight lipped throughout the process. And I don't see that changing. And I see it even being more tight lipped because now you have more time and and time is what kills kind of the the the information getting out. So I'd be shocked to see any kind of leakings between now and
honestly the NCAA tournament. And even then, you know, then we'll start playing the game of like, all right, do I think this is the coach? And are they going to be, you know, do we have to wait for them to finish playing? But, you know, I, I think we've seen over and over again, Indiana is going to keep their clothes, their, their cards very
close to the best. And I, I think sometimes they don't, they don't even hire a, a search firm, which is that, that's where I think the leaks come out of a lot of times. Well, there, there's a, there's almost always a search firm involved largely to keep it so that you're not communicating directly with any parties, so everybody can maintain plausible
deniability. But yes, if you don't feel like you have to use one of those firms technically or it feels like that, sorry, they haven't used a search firm to do the searching that that's well, and that's, yeah, I do think there's a vetting process that everybody has to go through with these things. It depends on what you end up hiring in that. But yeah, so it's, you know, the ultimately it's going to be an interesting process.
It's just going to be so slow. I mean, we're going to we're about to wrap up here because we've got six to seven maybe 8 weeks before we're going to really learn anything. And that sounds wild, but like when you announce that on on the 7th of February that your coach is going to the. First Day The first day is the NCAA tournament are March 20th and 21st. I would be shocked if it is
named before that. If you again, I, I, I really don't know where I, I do not know where we're going with it. But if you assume you're going to get a coach who might go to the second weekend of, of March, you're looking at like April first, March 31st before you can announce something. It's February 9th, man. I know that's like. Like we're closer to the Indy 500 than naming our coach. Well, not quite, but yeah, we're going to be closer to the 500. I I horrible way of saying that. Sorry.
I get, I get what you're saying. The hiring date could be closer to the Indy 500 than now. I thank you. Thank you. But, but, but it's a good point and it's something that it's why we we tried to talk a little bit about coaching search candidates and what we might think or about with that process in the show yesterday. But the reality is if you are trying to hire a coach, that's like going to a Final Four, like you're not going to be able to make an announcement till April sometime and.
Final four, you're talking? Yeah, April 8910, I mean, so after spring break. So we're going to we're going to have a slow burn on this and that's going to be a really interesting thing to watch as. And I guess this kind of goes back to the point I was trying to make earlier, which is that you to have to Stew in this without anything really like concrete to look forward to is probably going to be hard for IU
fans. Because as we heard chronic Hoosier talk about on on X yesterday, like there's an apathy around this program, There's an apathy on the floor. And that's like the worst thing for IU basketball is apathy. It's like you'd rather people were fired up and and feeling one way or the other. I know everybody wants tensions to be calmed down, but it's the apathy that's been the big problem in a lot of ways for how IU has approached basketball and how fans have gradually thought about it.
And then to not have a resolution in that potentially for another two months is going to just be really weird. And so I'm all I can say in that process is we're going to try to take it slow. We're going to talk to a lot of stakeholders on our podcast, a lot of journalists and friends and observers who've got thoughts on where things are going, because I think all these perspectives are important in a
changeover like this. It's just going to be potentially a while before we get any kind of conclusion on what this turnover is actually going to end up looking like. Yeah, I mean, cause the only other times we've it's weird that we've like, oh, we have a cop in this coaching fire situation, unfortunately in our lifetime. But like even in O 6 as you said, things are. Different. We really have two. Oh. No, no, I, I yes, that and the
Samson one. But I was so yeah, but I was going to say that the the Davis 1, you know, the the difference there is you still had the timeline thing, but it's like that was going to be all right, we're now going to hire the first coach since Bob Knight. Like Davis was was a unique situation with the Knight fires. Like, all right, this is cool. Like we get to do our first hire. And then, as you mentioned, the the Samson 1. You know, that was a bizarre situation, but that team still
had a lot of possibility. I mean, that team was what they were guy. Look at they were like, you know, 24 and four and 13 and two by February 26th was like this team could win in title. Like could this team go to the final four with an interim coach like that? That was still a possibility. This is one where you you have the malaise, but you also don't kind of have that excitement of like, oh, a coaching search when it's not Bob Knight.
Like now we've been down this like we've been down all these roads too many times. So I I hear everything you're saying. Yeah. Well, a lot that we will have to talk about moving forward here and we will, we'll, we'll put the kettle on the back of the oven or the stove top and just kind of. Last thing I want to say is I hear on some of our podcasts and on the network, people talking about, you know, they still have
a shot at the tournament. I'm kind of joking now, like are we talking NCAA or Big 10 'cause like, like we're slowly slipping out of Big 10 tournament. And I, I, I got to be honest, college basketball fan, I'm a podcaster. I kind of forgot that not everyone makes the Big 10 tournament this year. And then being like, oh, wait, we actually. So when I hear that now, I'm like, are we talking NCAA or Big 10 because we're sliding out of Big 10 tournament? Yeah. Pension. I know.
No. And I kind of Pooh poohed the idea that Indiana might miss the Big 10 tournament. I, I still think that they're going to make the Big 10 tournament. But as you said, Scott, only 15 teams out of the 18 make it. And I mean, this morning Indiana sits at 5:00 and 8:00. You know, Iowa picked up a loss last night, but they've still got a game in hand.
So if they win, they'll be 5 and 8 and actually ahead of IU, which would put IU for seating purposes, the 14th out of the 15 teams that would get in. And right behind them would be Northwestern at 4:00 and 9:00, who has a tiebreaker over Indiana. Washington at 3:00 and 9:00, who's yet to play Indiana but could get a tiebreaker, Penn State, who's at 3 and 10 after their loss yesterday. But if they beat Indiana in Bloomington would at least have
an even tiebreaker there. I still think Indiana will qualify ahead. And then the only other team in the mix that's below them right now is Minnesota, who Indiana has a tiebreaker over. So I feel fairly good there.
But yeah, I mean, it's wild that technically, yes, Indiana still I I think last yesterday probably was a little bit of a death blow to even their bubble talk 'cause they had been in that last four out or first four out or next 4 out of a lot of projections, mine included up until this week. Now they're in a position where, you know, the three games under 500 in conference and they are projected to lose 5 of the next
seven. I mean, if they did that, and I don't know that they necessarily will, you know, if you're 7 and 13, I think there's a a really good chance that you might miss the Big 10 tournament because you end up tied at 7 and 13 with another team who's got a tiebreaker on you. It's it's a it's a weird. Scenario you make the tournament three out of four years that's good enough. The Big 10 tournament yes yeah, no. Yeah. Asterisk Big 10 tournament Yeah,
I made the tournament big. 1034 years isn't that good what does this fan base want? You're in the tournament makes every. Year it's one of those things where you do kind of debate. It's like if it's ending, like is it worth? You know, if you're like are you fighting to get in so you can play at a Tuesday?
I don't know, it's a Tuesday game or a Wednesday game where you would be going up against I think the seven seed that's it's a it's an interesting scenario, especially since as we've seen, Indiana can be competitive in any individual game. They can play with almost anybody from a talent perspective if they put it all together. You can just turn down a Big 10 tournament invite. We're good. Please, we're good. We felt bad for Washington. Let them go.
No, I know it's. Their first year, they. Get them a taste just cause kids from Washington anyway that'll
we'll see what happens. Obviously the the other kind of twist of the knife little one Indiana traveling to she can state on Tuesday where Tom Izzo will have the chance to break Bob Knight's all time Big Ten wins record against Indiana on I don't know if that's on national television or I refuse to call Peacock national television at this point, but yeah, so that's that's going to be a a tough one to watch. In Bloomington or maybe I I don't know, but it's it, it's
going to happen. I mean, yeah. It's going to happen and deservedly so. The thing is, like, I mean, these records are are things that they're meant to be broken. And Izzos had a tremendous run of very consistent conference success. And look, so it's just it sucks that it happens now and with everything else and this whole identity crisis that IU basketball has been dealing with. Here's another thing. And it's only it's not that relevant, but I think and it's not really even a Bob Knight
thing. It's just, well, the Indiana coach held the record for most conference wins as a coach, and now he's not going to. And now the Michigan State coach will hold it maybe forever because it's it is. I mean, I guess technically Matt Painter could maybe catch up, but is he going to coach another 10 years, 15 years? I don't know. Well Galen, here's the thing, at least after that blow, then other twist the knife, we get to come home. Oh wait and get our ass kicked
by our rival. Wow, we we do have that UCLA game in the middle. Maybe that'll be a sorry, I'm sorry, a ray of sunshine. Anyway, yeah, all right, well, we're good and wrap up. Thanks for sticking with us folks, and thanks to those of you who came out to the upstairs pub this past Saturday. We will be back with more Crimson cast coming up later on this week. We should have another football check in at some point soon. And obviously we'll keep an eye on the basketball coaching
search. We'll have a lot of people on to talk about that. For Scott. I'm Galen. We'll catch you folks. On the flip side. Bring back the Bison, stay never daunted, so on everybody.