You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Cast, GAIL and Claudia Scott Caulfield joining you. It's the 25th of February, a month that cannot end soon enough for Indiana basketball. Be our favorite time of the year, right? Remember, this is our favorite sports section. It's It's not anymore. It is. It still should. It's real bad, man. Now Indiana.
One in five so far in the month of February, and still with one game left to play it. It feels Groundhog Day is in February, Scott, and that is what this has felt like pretty consistently for many years now with IU. So let's look on the. Positive side I think that most fans probably know what all of the gifts of a dumpster on fire and or bust with wheels falling off like look like right now. So we've kind of it's like we've all we all know all of them like that. That's a positive.
It's like hey, I know all of the gifts of 1 subcategory. Yeah, no, it's there's I'm actually a little disappointed in the gift makers that we've been stuck with the same dumpster fire gifts for years and you know, we didn't have to stop making gifts in 2014, Scott. Like, you know, the the the people need to get in there and and continue to create new representations of despair just to help us visually through the moment.
So if you. New ways to say it like you know wheels falling off the like the wheels are off the bus. Let's come up with some new things like let's we can work on that we can make this a positive we can become. Hey, there could be a back home network GIF maker business we're into. We're really scraping the bottom of the business barrel if we're going for gift maker, but. I'm gonna, I wouldn't go to Kelly's School of Business with this business. Plan, I'm gonna say.
Wow, that'll make hundreds of dollars. That's great. Off people. Yes, this is definitely the people you want to go. After anyway, we are brought to you by Home field apparel. Your place to go for the finest in college fashions and racing fashions, the softest fabrics, all kinds of tremendous stuff coming at you from the home field apparel line. They've been releasing some of their their NASCAR and and racing related stuff. They've got Indy 500 and little
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You can subscribe for free. crimsoncast.substack.com get podcast delivered right to your e-mail as well as extras. I did AVIP video the other day trying to break down what went on with that ruling, saying that the NCAA can't enforce their nil rules anymore. It was very good.
It I was hanging out with some, hanging out with some friends last night and we talked about this and I felt like I came in with information and like I was leading like it it was a good precursor to hanging out and having discussions. So thank you. No, it was some good stuff. I thought you were going to say like, yeah, you know, I had some friends over and we we threw Galen's VIP video on and you know, we roasted some marshmallows while we watched.
It that's actually I I'm like. It's premium content that would be giving it away to people who that's a good. Point you, you, you're like, well, guys. Arrest me for infringement. We're going to sit here and watch this, but I have to collect $5 from each of you this. Is actually not a podcast, it's an injunction. So no, it's actually. It's not a podcast. It's it's like it's like one of those Tupperware parties, you know, where where you invite your friends over and you sell them things.
I think that's that's how that's really how now we're here to. Hang out. Can we stop talking about the NCLA injunction? And this is premium video. This is back home network, multi level marketing. This is this is the MLM branch of the back home network. I'm excited for it. Talking to invest in your meme company. We're done, man. We want to hang. Out. Come on, man. See this cannot fail. Yes, it's, it's, it's podcast. Yeah, never mind. Yeah, podcasting, Amway, I guess.
Something like that. So anyway, right. Yeah that that was thus concludes the fun part of the show. So yes, let's talk let's talk about you the the men's team. Gosh they're just not good. They lose to Penn State yesterday 83 to 74 in what really was a game that it you know it.
Honestly, it's funny like you look at the score 8374 and then you realize as you dive into it, as you go back and and watch that the entire game was decided in about a 5 minute stretch from the the basically last three minutes of the first half through the 1st minute and a half ish of the second-half.
When Penn State went on an 11 to one run and you look at that and you look at the final score, it was 8374 and it's like, gosh, Indiana played them even except for that 11 to one run, which unfortunately Scott, I checked with the NCAA this morning, that period still counts. Like we can't give them credit for the other 35 minutes because those 5 minutes did actually
matter. It's it feels very similar to what we've seen in many of the other games that we've watched Indiana watch in this recent stretch. You know it it it had a similar sort of thing that we think about the Nebraska game where Indiana had a 20 to three run of its own bookended by 11 O and 14 to one runs on the part of Nebraska, which largely led to what the final outcome ended up
being score wise. You know when Indiana has been faced with superior competition talent wise, like Purdue, they've tended to be down most of the game. But when they play these teams that they should be more or less in touch with from a talent perspective or or from an ability perspective, the Northwestern's, the Nebraska's, the Penn State's, they they consistently had bad moments that have stretched over 5 to 10 minutes that have been the
deciding factor. And I talked about this with Tony in the podcast I did with him towards the tail end of last week. It's just Groundhog Day. To use something from earlier on in the show over and over for this IU team, they just cannot play a full 40 minute basketball game. We've heard Mike Woodson talk about that. He's not wrong. He hasn't gotten a full 40 minutes out of the team.
Where he is wrong is, or at least where it's really troubling, is that he does not seem to have any clue how to fix it. And thus Indiana is 6 and 10 and 14 and 13 overall. Sorry, bad time to cough. That's fine. You know, I I listened to the podcast you did with Tony, you know, when I was thinking about, 'cause you were talking about, you know, everything you were just talking about. But I was thinking about those two wins, you know, Iowa and Ohio State.
And to me it's like I I think about, it's less than like they they had a bunch of heart and they really tried. It's just more in like Iowa you had Gabe Cups hit a three that just as he doesn't normally hit. And like at Ohio State, you know, Anthony Leal hit a three and it it really, it's like, you know, unfortunately the rest of these games, it's not that guys, I don't say, I don't say can't hit threes, but they're not
hitting threes. It's like just too often the energy always seems about the same. It's just a lot of these plays aren't being made and you're getting the ball kind of the right positions you're getting renew the ball, you're getting, you know, shooters open threes. They're either not taking them, they're not making them, they're dribbling into worst shots or they're not making plays.
And I think that's, that's the really troubling part is when you look back at the only two wins, it's like, all right, you know, we're basically 2, two shots away that we don't normally make from having not won since January 12th. And it it looks like it's the same, the same process. It's the same effort. It it's really kind of the same. And and yeah, I mean you get these moments where you know, Penn State just kind of grinds it out. They get up by 8:00. They go on that 11 to one run
like you mentioned. And then I think most IU fans and unfortunately it feels like it's seeped into the team. Everybody at that moment when it's, you know, 43 to 33, Penn State's up in the second-half. I don't think there's any rational IU fan who would do a live bet on like FanDuel and be like, I'm going to bet Indiana to win. Like it's just you're kind of like, all right, well, that's, that's it. Like this is not a team that normal. I'd be shocked if they came back. They don't.
And it feels like that that feeling has kind of permeated the team. But like I said I don't think it's because of an ever thing and think it's just because guys aren't able or they're not in positions to to make the plays that need to be made to win the games.
It's both but it's not the same but it So what I mean by that is there are effort issues there are also but but well no this is important I think because this is this is something that I think a lot of times when not we but the Royal we as as as observers or fans discuss IU. Everybody wants to distill it down to well the team's not playing hard or or the system sucks and what I keep trying to get across is some guys are
playing hard but not smart. Some guys are playing you know in a way that looks unnatural to them. Some guys are not playing hard at least not all the time you know. So this is where you cannot fault Trey Galloway for how hard he plays. Like he he clearly is sacrificing his body and is going, you know, like OverDrive, trying to make things happen. But that's a problem in and of itself because it's creating turnovers, it's creating bad offensive possessions.
And again, it's like that's not an effort thing, but it's a why is the scheme set up in such a way that one guy has to try to make everything happen? You know, there's there's so many possessions where it's one person doing something and four people watching. It's it's very similar to like complaints people have in the worst moments of the Mike Davis era. So, you know, 20 years ago.
So yeah, it's it's tough. And I think you know with the game, with it, with opponents that Indiana's been losing to lately, the Penn State's, the Nebraska's, the Northwestern's primarily and even the wins. You know, Iowa and Ohio State. Iowa's played OK down the stretch, but I wouldn't call
them a great team. What's frustrating is that it just feels like if Indiana could keep an even keel, if there was some kind of of centralizing force that that didn't lead to this cavalcade of mistakes that seem to happen, you feel like Indiana would be in a position where they could have won a couple more of these games. But just there'll be dumb things
that happen. I mean twice in the closing 2 minutes of the game yesterday when the game was a little bit in the bath, the second one, not as much, but certainly the first one, Indiana fouled 3 point shooters in the active shooting and and it's just like you know, for that to happen multiple times for the free throws to be as bad as they are in conference play. Scott, did you realize that in the Big 10, the the 2nd? Word.
The answer's already no, but. The The second worst free throw shooting team in the Big 10 is Minnesota. They're shooting 67.5% in conference play from the charity stripe, Indiana's 14th. They are shooting 5% worse than Minnesota in conference play from the charity stripe 62.5%. I mean that's that's that's sizable like that is that is a standard deviation if not two off of things.
It's stuff like that that you look at this Indiana team and it's like so many of the core issues look like they might be not that big of a deal if they weren't so consistently bad at them. And some of it seems to be just mentality and concentration and effort more than anything else. And so the this Penn State game was I think a a pretty interesting example of all of that because again, it really to me came back to the defensive effort or lack thereof.
Indiana scored one point O six points per possession, which isn't great, but that should be something where you could stay within a possession or two. But they let Penn State score 1.19 points per possession. You know that they they let Penn State shoot 43% from three. They put Penn State on the line 30 times and they hit 26 of them. And that's again, it's just like the same thing over and over again with a slightly different skin.
And even in the wins, as you pointed out, the profile is not that different. It's just that a couple of shots went in for Indiana that are a little bit surprising in retrospect, given how the rest of the games have gone. Yeah, no, it's, it's and unfortunately where we sit now is like that was kind of the the Penn State on the road was kind of the last port in the storm. You know Indiana could still pull one of these out and this is still a team.
You know we went you know one at Michigan which they're not great this year but you did beat Maryland at home and so Maryland is a better team than like let's say Minnesota and you also play Maryland again, you know there's there's there are possible you know Wisconsin has had its issues this season like things can be put together It it does just feel like this is kind of a a train that just doesn't have an engine.
It's just kind of like just it's just coasting and I think that's really the the tough part is how quickly we seem to be adrift and just kind of rudderless and and things that everyone has said. And it doesn't feel like there's really an answer and it doesn't feel like things are changing. It just feels like you continue to kind of go out with the same type of gameplay and you still get the same auto benches. You know like you you were kind of saying like you know he doesn't do that.
It was like part, part of it was like some of the guys aren't playing because they have two fouls and it's just like they're sitting on the bench forever. And you know, and again, we're we're fans. We don't know everything that's
going on in the team. But it is frustrating when you see a lot of the things that from this perspective look like aren't helping where it's like, hey, Khalil Ware isn't playing like Mackenzie and Bako always seems to get 2 fouls but is never allowed to play through it. Maybe he'll always get a third foul, but there does come a point where it's like, all right, well, you've tried it a
bunch of ways your time. Like, I see other college basketball teams trying different things, and it doesn't always work, but sometimes it works. Like, that's the frustrating part when it's like as a fan, you just, you see the same things over and over again. But now you see, you know, four straight losses against kind of suboptimal Big 10 opponents. And that's where it's like, I'd love to see you at least try something different. Maybe you'd have the same result.
I don't know. But that that's the. Frustrating part from a fan's perspective, it was interesting that in the post game, I mean we've talked a lot about the the communication in the post game press conferences as they as they are not being very good and not being very satisfying in terms of the kinds of things that have been said by Woodson.
It was interesting that Woodson yesterday in the post game press conference you know, said well, you know, essentially I'm not happy with how I've coached this team. I won't put the blame for that on anybody but Mike Woodson or something to that effect, which is odd because he has put the blame on not Mike Woodson. In prior press conferences. It did feel like maybe for the first time we got like a clear recognition from Woodson that, OK, things are really off the
tracks right now. And I just wonder if that came too late because it really, Scott feels like public sentiment about Mike Woodson and about this team has kind of rounded the bend, so to speak. Like, it really feels like we hit an invisible barrier probably during that Nebraska game, but maybe during the Northwestern game where fans kind of en masse have just, you know, not everybody, but many, many fans, many people we talked to.
Many of the the people that we see have just kind of thrown their hands up and said I'm done. And you know, that's why I found Woodson's comments and they were, they were not long comments. It wasn't like he went long. I think he was in the press conference for like 3 minutes or maybe slightly less than 3 minutes yesterday. But even that kind of public acknowledgement a is is different from what we've seen. But B it it almost feels like an attempt at damage control.
But the the the a lot of a lot of water has been taken on in terms of IU basketball's perception and the way that fans are are looking at this right now. I I wonder if it's too late to try to turn that ship around, at least in terms of how people are feeling. I mean I'll distill that down. It's like it's a toxic
atmosphere right now. I mean you and Tony talked about it like the you know you had people booing at assembly hall which it I'm I'm not a booer like I don't I don't really Boo I I even as bad as it gets with IU football like I don't really just I'm not booing the team like you you you said it very well I'm not going to distill your thoughts like I I definitely understand the sediment where sentiment where
people are coming from. But I will say this like it's here are the things, here's like the reality points. When it gets to this point, and we've seen it before, like the end of the, you know, Davis era a little bit, the end of the Crean era, the end of the Archie era. We've seen it in football at the end of basically every, every era. You kind of pass this Rubicon and once you, it's really hard. We keep on saying it's really hard to get it back. I can't think of a situation
where you've gotten it back. You know, Crean lost it after that #1 ranked team. He won a Big Ten title and still didn't get it back. You know once fans cross that line it it's just I keep I I just don't know if you can get it back and I don't know if there's a lot of examples of it getting back in writing the ship and writing off into the sunset
into a great spot. And that's that's the part that worries me because once the fans are there and you're having them you know booing at the Big 10 tournament like you did under Archie or unfortunately booing. You know we we still two more home games. It's like they're they're probably not going to go well. And this is where I, you know my take on it is you know I'm not going to say I'm not going to
say what needs to be done. But it's like here's here's what I would say if absolutely nothing changes and you come back and you have the same type of season next year. To me, I would say like that's something we're like the IU administration and the athletic department like they've allowed this to be an atmosphere where like if if there's booing again it's kind of like what's on them like like you can't not do
anything. But I don't know you know we're not going to get in like what what exactly you do. But it's like I think everyone would kind of agree you can't just do nothing or else or else this is going to just continue to roll over because people are pissed because because people care like and that's The thing is like this is what fans are, is like they care. I don't. The thing is, I mean, there's a level of, I hate to call it
apathy, cause apathy. You're not going out of your way to talk about how you don't care if you're actually apathetic. Yeah, I know. I guess we talked about, yeah, it's kind of on both sides. No and I'm talking and I'm not talking about you or me necessarily. I mean we we have to watch this otherwise we don't have a show and we can't you know we can't multi level market you VIP videos if we don't have a show you know so like we've got certain things. Quiet part out loud.
Galen stop. But no, but you know, the number of people who have kind of gone out of their way to tell me that, like, you know, I just, I've stopped watching. It's like, well, to me, that's the expression of a group of people that still wants to care and has kind of shut things off emotionally. And I don't blame them.
I mean, you know the thing that stuck out to me more than anything else yesterday, you're facing a Penn State team that you've already lost to and you lost to them last time because they hit 12, three-point shots. That was 36 of the 85 points that they scored on you in Assembly Hall.
That that graphic at the end of the game yesterday, Scott, it was like maybe like 4 minutes to play and it said something like I think Indiana had 71 points at the time of the graphic and it was like 65 of those points came either off of like dunks, layups or free throws you know which. And at the time I think Indiana still had not hit a three. They they obviously hit a couple
at the very end of the game. But to have lost to a Penn State team that only seems to be able to beat you if they're hitting threes and do not, like, think maybe we need to figure out a way to incorporate this more in our offense. Between the last time we played them in this time, it just kind of felt like no adaptations have been made to the plan. There's no different approaches. You know, It wasn't like they were significantly better in defending the three.
Penn State hit nine this time instead of 12. It it just really felt like no lessons were learned. And that frustrates IU fans more than anything else. I think IU fans will accept losses if it feels like what we learned from that loss and we'll be better for it the next time. And the people who have said well I haven't watched games really it feels like and some of them have just outright said it to me. I'm not watching games because the it's the same experience every time.
It's either play a superior opponent and get blown out like Purdue or play an equal or slightly inferior opponent and look the same every single time, not being able to you know, have a modern looking offense on one end and then not defending properly on the other. And so yes, I to go back to what you were saying, the idea that fans are going to be in any way, shape or form like satisfied with the direction of things.
If there's no change, I mean Indiana has to win out to get to 500 in the conference right now that's that almost certainly is not going to happen given the mix of things. Given the way the team is playing they're far more likely, they're far more likely to lose out and and as you say if if the plan is to go into next season with no changes to the overall approach, if there's if the plan is to go in and just say well that that stunk, but we're going to come back stronger than ever
next time. I don't think people are going to be particularly excited about that. But that is that is essentially where things are at right now and it is only going to get more toxic down the stretch here, which is unfortunate. I mean, to some degree, I guess it's good that Indiana only has two home games left, but man, it is. It is a tough sled right now for everybody. Like there are no winners in this at all, it feels like. No. Well, a couple things. And and you, you know, I'm kind
of with Woodson and the staff. I'm done listening to their post game comments because like this is the offense they play. This is not directed. You like, you know, I I hear this log, man, they just shoot a couple more threes. I say it's like they're not like they just don't like you'll have these weird aberration games. They will shoot a bunch. They might hit a couple, you know, hit seven or eight.
It's like we look all right. It's like this is not the offense they run and we spent all offseason talking about, all right. You know, maybe Woodson only did that because of Trey Jackson Davis. And you know you kind of work yourself into a pretzel of like, all right, well, that's you. You have a generational talent at center and you have like Purdue does as well and they seem to be able to shoot threes. But it's like this year has shown this is this is the offense he wants to run.
Like whether he says it or not. Like maybe not to like this is the offense he's running and it's not changing. Like he can say whatever he wants. And and I do think that's a real problem because part of this is, you know, it's not WWE but sports is also entertainment. Like it is fun to watch a team that you enjoy to watch. And as we've mentioned many times, this is not just, this is not a super fun style of basketball to watch and the
results also aren't there. But I can already hear it in the offseason us doing pods assembly call not picking on people. But it's like kind of like, all right, you know, well you know this will happen. You know, if I you can just shoot a couple more threes, you know, we can just increase that efficiency there. It's like this is all based on no evidence that any of this is going to change. Like this is the style that this staff wants to play like that is
just bar none hard stop. Like this is the style and there's really no if you were going to make a change, you would have made it this year. You know this is a coach who's later in his tenure. Most coaches later in their tenure don't just automatic you know Tony Bennett doesn't normally just in his 60s like hey I'm going to start running a, you know five out off like they run the styles that they run And so that's where I get kind of pre frustrated is I I
don't see. I'm not saying it can't work. It can work. But I I don't think it's going to work based on massive fundamental changes in the way that that our team plays because as you mentioned you're not seeing it happen you know in game after game where it would make more sense to play Penn State differently. We don't. We play them the same way and we're getting the same results. But it's it's frustrating because it's not it's not a fun product to watch.
I I want to can I say one more thing about the frustration just while we're here. You know, this is a part that I do think you and I understand. It's wild to think this, that some younger fans may not know this, but it's like this is all part of the the tapestry of what we're living in IU basketball. You know, I'm also a fan of the NBA. You know, like 76er fans are are very, very angsty about this team because of where they went through to get here. The Sixers did a complete rebuild.
They did a tank job where they spent five years just out in the wilderness getting first round picks. They kind of they kind of blew away you know the tapestry of what you and I live with is we went through a stud that to the studs build out of this team in the first couple years of cream which I'm not going to re litigate.
But it's like we did it and as a fan base for the most part it's like all right that was I don't look back at 09 and again this I we lived through it. I went to a lot of those games that that team went 6 and 25 six and 24 one and 17 in the big 10. It felt like most of those games were fun atmospheres. It wasn't toxic. We we lived through an entire
rebuild. But as I always point out, it's like I lived through those years like those were two years of my life as an IU basketball fan that are just completely punted into the sun. I'll get snarky here and be like prices didn't go down, like my varsity club donations as a 25 year member didn't go down, like that all happened. But it's like that that angst does kind of like nobody owes anybody anything in this, you know, except for me owing money for the tick people money for tickets.
But it's like that is there like that is like all right, we did a, we did a rebuild. And so it's like that's where I do think a lot of this, gosh, every other team has one bad season. It's like, I don't know, I was going to ask you like, I don't know other teams that did that kind of a massive rebuild, had their fan base stay with them. And then like, I just don't know if there's really a precedent
for that. And I I do think it's important because it does, at least for me it's like that does factor into some of the like pent up angst that kind of comes up. It's like I really don't want to go through, not that we're going to be at that point, but like I don't want to keep on going through these micro rebuilds. It's like we we did this, we went to the studs, we rehabbed this house.
You're the only team I could think of that came to mind is like the the Kentucky team of like the late 80s where they're on the cover of Sports Illustrated, the end of the Eddie Sutton era. And it's like I went back and looked, it's like they were 13 and 1914 and 14 and then went with Pitino 22 and 622 and seven and like, they're off and running. I look at that. It's like, man, I wish this season we could be 13 and 14 and 14. So I I don't know, I'm, I'm, I'm
'cause I don't have a point. But it's like I do think that that rebuild really matters in that it kind of like it. It is. Having gone through that, it's like you you do get pent up angst where it's like I'm tired of rebuilding. I don't think there's a comp. We've talked about this before, but no other program.
The only other program I can think of, the only one that and it's a very different circumstance but it had essentially the same outcome from a roster perspective is Baylor who you know had a murder scandal under Dave Bliss and it required essentially it was a slightly longer version of what happened with Indiana. But they had four years where they were under 500 each of the four years they had three of those years where they were winless, you know the O six
season. I don't even think that they were allowed to play non conference games. You know that was part of that sanction. So that it's an extreme example but you know it's it is interesting thinking about the the long tail aspect of how that program was rebuilt under Scott Drew. And you know certainly there are things to criticize about the way that Scott Drew did business. But and you know it was very intermittent for them in terms of success early. You know, they'd make a
tournament. They missed the tournament. They'd have a really good year and then they'd have a bad year. But you know I think with the you know the thing about Indiana is that there's just not a comp to even like a program like Michigan who had to kind of bottom out a little bit after the Tommy Amerker era ended. They bring in John beeline that shakes things up a bit and then they had a pretty significant
and consistent level of success. I just with Indiana, I keep coming back to this this idea of it's not bad that Indiana felt like it could do better than the inconsistencies that Crean showed at the end of his tenure and you know, missing 2 tournaments in the last four years. But then the flip side is they just made what appear to be wrong choices a couple of times and perhaps there were, you know, is with Archie Miller perhaps there were warning signs
that that should have been seen. I don't. I don't know if that's necessarily fair, but I I do think that a lot of the frustration does come out of that. But I I don't know, I don't know if I totally agree with you about that being kind of the core 'cause I think for most fans that's just kind of, I mean that was a long time ago, that was 15 years ago now essentially. And so to, you know, we've seen programs, do resets have success and then kind of recede?
You know, from my perspective, I look at where this Indiana program's AT and why there's frustration. I just think the frustration is it's less about what happened in 2009 and more what happened in 2019 and and around that period where there just wasn't the elevation of the program that was promised with letting Cream go. And what has happened in this season is such a huge reset back to a level that reminds people of resetting the program that it's like now we've got real problems.
And, you know, I don't know how deep the average IU fan really thinks about all of this, and I'm not expecting them to. I guess that's that's kind of our job, to find interesting things to talk about on the podcast. You and I, I think, think about it.
And they're like, wow, you know, you would have thought that hitting that reset button to the degree that Indiana did would have guaranteed some level of future success because it would have been like, well, clearly things went wrong at this point, but we're going to set a proper foundation. I just don't think a proper foundation was ever set. And you know, I've, I go back to this a lot. I've talked about it a lot when we've talked football.
You know, I I Indiana is so beholden to the logistical and program running abilities of the coaches that they've hired. And and look, a a lot of programs are like that. But it feels like Indiana thinks they're in the air of Kansas and North Carolina and Kentucky where there's an institutional stability in the program because of who they are that can supersede a bad coach hire and allow you to come back. And Indiana's just not like that.
I think if anything has been demonstrated, not just in the last 20 years, but in the entire history of IU athletics for men's basketball and really women's basketball too. Now I think we see this as well. If Indiana hires a really good coach, they're going to be really good. And if Indiana hires a coach that does not have those intangible aspects or the tangible aspects that make them a top level coach in college basketball, they're not going to
be good. And I don't know that the equation is any more complicated than that. Now that's, I think that there's a lot of implications to that. Like does Indiana need to look really hard at what Kansas and Kentucky and North Carolina do, who I think are really the only schools that you can say for sure fall into this paradigm?
Do they need to look at that and say, all right, how could we manage our basketball program differently so that we are not so susceptible to these huge swings of fortune based upon who has been hired? But I don't know if that's something that you just flip a switch and do because that's there. There are basketball programs all over the country who would like to have that secret sauce.
It may just be that that's not something that's attainable for Indiana, much like, I mean, UConn had a similar situation. They they had a they had a Hall of Fame coach, They won four or three national titles. They won one on the fumes of that coaches operations. But that coach wasn't very good and he ends up getting fired. They hire another awesome coach and now they're winning national titles or have won a national title and are competitive for another one.
I just wonder if if it's maybe just as simple as that. Yeah, no, I I think you're right. And what's you know, what's interesting is two of those three teams I, I talk about a lot that, you know you look at Kentucky, you know they had the the Billy Gillespie era which by the way doesn't look that bad in retrospect. You go back and look at Gillespie's numbers and it's not awful. He's sorry I had it here in a
second. You know he was 18 and 13 and 22 and 14 in his last year and it's like wow that's not not too bad. But it it wasn't working there. They only gave him two years. But like the the dot, dot, dot is like then they hired Calipari, who at the time was like, all right this it seems like he's going to be a fit that's going to work and it
worked. Same thing with you know North Carolina had this with Brad Doherty that he was a, you know former former Tar Heel. They only gave him two years I believe 2. But it's like they they hired, they hired Roy Williams who no guarantee he would have won a title at that point. He had not won a title. His rap was kind of like he can get him there and can't win the title which was kind of Calipari's rap also. But it's like those are also dependent on those guys working
out. And so I I do fully agree. It's like if you're going to play in that air you you got to, if you're going to make quick moves you got to then make the right next move which like that that's a whole different that's not even get into that but it's like I I hear you on that. The other thing with that, I will say like we get comped a lot that this always you and Tony touched on this.
But I just want to hammer this point home because it drives me bananas when people are like, you know, hey man, everybody's got, you know, I hear this sometimes. Yeah, everyone's got a bad year like, you know, North Carolina missed the tournament one year and it's like, all right, well, First off, that team wasn't that bad. Like that North Carolina team statistically was that bad. But yes, you know, there's different ways to miss the
tournament, I'll say that. But it's like you can have a kind of an off year if you've had very high level success. I mean, North Carolina has won a title in this century. North Carolina's been to multiple final fours. North Carolina was in the final four the year before and then missed the tournament. Like very top notch high level success covers up for a lot. Like it's a Bill Simmons thing. He won a title. He can't talk for five.
You know, you can't complain about your team for five years. You know, a lot of times those those mad seasons happen after that. And I think what we're running into, at least for me, my frustration is like we're getting comp the stuff like look, we've barely made sweet sixteens. We've you know gotten blown out in the tournament games that we're losing. Very disappointed that that's not high level enough to then have basically really bad worst seasons.
Like this is the worst season when North Carolina missed the the tournament two years ago but it's like they had a final four they were riding off of. We have a a round of 32 loss like that. That's the difference is we're not getting enough of that top level success for at least for me to just have seasons that you just completely punt away.
And yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's a bummer because I think most fans are at a point and I know I'm kind of getting there to where it's just like, I just, I want this season to be over. Like there's really nothing left to talk about. There's nothing more really to accomplish.
Like it's unless this team wins the Big 10 tournament, which we don't do, or unless this team goes on a massive run in the NIT and wins the NIT, which is like there's no, there's no markers, this team is going to do that that that you've seen so far this year. So that'd be a complete
aberration. It's kind of like I just I'm ready for it to be over and it's just it's wild that we're at this point and I haven't been at this point in IU basketball in quite some time where I just want this to be over. It's very reminiscent of IU football, which is a very kind of there's a core face base there, but it's very apathetic base and it's just it's wild that we're in the spot with IU
basketball. But I I do think most fans are there and I think it's a I will say again, it's very, very, it puts the IU administration in a tough spot because if they just do absolutely nothing. I do think if things get kind of bad and toxic next year, while not great, it does. Kind of like I would put it at their feet and be like you did this, you let this fester. I'll take a different approach and it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier.
I mean ultimately I think a lot of the a lot of the core ideas around IU basketball and what decisions get made with it are predicated on this idea that there's there's something intrinsically different about the program. Not. I mean that's it's obviously a special program. It has a huge fan base. It has a fan base that travels. But I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about the actual program and and the elements to it. And this is, this is not breaking news for anybody listening, but there's nothing in the actual results and there hasn't been anything in the actual results for, for 30 years that make this any different than any other kind of upper half Power 5 conference team or Power 6 or whatever you want to say. And and and you know, I mean you've got a few things. It's not like it's completely bereft.
There's a national title appearance in that mix. There's, you know, there's there's there's conference championships and stuff like that. You know, but I mean. It's I mean Georgia Tech has all of those things too So Utah, Utah has those things in the last 30 years. I mean you can go down the list. Butler's got more national title appearances.
I mean I mean so but don't calm. But there's not there's there's nothing that you know there's the famous RMK fan one on pigs back in the day the you know the the infamous line there's there's nothing different in the water in Bloomington.
And that's this is where I think you if you are going to say, OK, this isn't working much like we saw you know with with some of the examples that you provided earlier, Indiana is not going to save Indiana. Like the program's, the program's vitality the the, the DNA of the program is not going to dig the program out of the problems that it's in.
And I hope you understand what I mean by that, folks, when I say that it's it's that there's, you know, the you're not going to have a sudden shift of fortune solely because it's Indiana. Because as I said earlier, Indiana really is so reliant on having a coach that is capable of doing the things that make a program special rather than leaning on an already special
program. And you know, whereas you've, you know you've had multiple great coaches with North Carolina, with Kansas, with Kentucky. You know Indiana's had two essentially they've had Branch, McCracken, I mean Everett, Dean Everdeen's kind of in a special category because the the game was much different. And I, you know if if Everdeen had stuck around for another decade, it would have, it would have been interesting to see
what would have happened. But Branch were cracking and then Bob Knight and then you got a bunch of not great years and or very inconsistent years that are probably more the actual DNA of what Indiana is than necessarily what Indiana is under those two coaches. That's what I guess I'm getting at. And so the hope would be if you're if you're not going to see any change, there's got to be an alteration to the approach because the approach is not working. And did did the approach work
last year. It worked to a degree, but certainly not to a degree that most people view Indiana in the Indiana fan base within the perspective of. I mean it was not it was a, it was a sub par year for a great program. It was a really great year for a program that doesn't have a lot going for it.
You know what I mean? So that's, that's where I'm kind of at right now, where you take the adriftness of this season, you take the lack of direction, you take the fact that it just doesn't feel like a whole lot is changing in terms of of anything. You take the comments that have been made-up to this point and and the idea that, well, you know it's it's youth, it's an experience, it's it's a lack of of carryover from 1 roster to the next.
It's like well, all those things can be true, but that those things aren't fixing themselves either at this point. Like there's got to be some engineering from above that's like, well, this approach is clearly not working and that to me is the biggest indictment right now or it's like that. There do not appear to be any changes that have been made that have been positively affecting things, and if anything, it feels like the team's gotten worse relative to the other
team. Teams in the conference over the course of the last month and 1/2.
Well, and something that you and Tony hit on and I do feel like this is kind of, you know, you and I saw, we saw that like I'll call it the Ken Palm problem this team had in you know, even in like early December. We're just like, you know, we kind of like you and I had a podcast talk about how that Kansas game was kind of a must win just from a Ken Palm perspective of trying to make the tournament because we could see how the math was going to work out.
I remember talking to some rational people like that aren't deep into college basketball like I am at that time. And they're like, come on, man, like you make 500, the Big 10, you're making the turn, I guess so much, so much to play. And it's like, all right. What? Like you look ahead and it's like, I just don't Like we didn't see the path. And you know, the results have not been where we thought they were going to be. They've been worse. But it's like this is shown.
The path was going to be really tough. People got to there. You know, where I also think you know you and Tony hit on this that that that I think fans are going to come to realize soon as well is and where I get very concerned is just as you mentioned like changing this all up. But you look at next year like there's just there's not a lot in the pipeline that's going to change. You have one recruit coming in, so now you're going to have to get a bunch of people in the
portal. You know, Tony mentioned that teams that got, you know, 3-4 guys in the portal have not done well this year. You know, that's been a refrain. We don't have continuity. We need more players. Yet we none of those things are going to happen next year. It's just not going to happen unless you bring this entire team back, which it's also like, but you this team does need some other pieces and some other areas.
They're going to have to come in the Portal and as I rail on a bunch like he, they did really well in the Portal last year. So they think you're just going to do that and do better after a bad season when the vibes aren't good. I think that's also tough, but I I think that's where those of us who are really concerned we're we're just kind of future casting, which you can be totally wrong, like next year could be an A complete success. And I would love that more than
anything else. I'm just not sure how you get to that based on the system that we're playing and based on the pieces that are that are here and the pieces that you're going to have to get. It's going to be a Herculean
task. And I guess I will finish this by just saying that's where you know, I appreciate the comments that Woodson made at the post game, kind of a little bit of a Mia Coppa. But I'm I'm just the thing that I go back to is like this is this is going to be a unbelievably important offseason and it's going to be an absolute ton of work. Like this is going to be an absolute complete grind because you're going to have to get new recruits. You're going to have to re
recruit the players you have. You have to hit the portal like this is this is a 5 alarm fire. But this is going to be a ton of work and I'm just like, I'm just like dude, are are we, are we ready for the like the amount of hustle and work this is going to take is, is going to be unlike, I think any other program is going to have to deal with it. You're going to have to get guys to decommit other places come here. You have to win people over, win over your own team.
Like this is just, it's a ton. And I just, I look at them like I just is is the hustle the fight the energy to do all this. I just like are we sure it's all there. It's kind of my well. And no, I I think it's a it's a good. Point I I think additionally, what are you going to remake the program into the image of? Is that going to be sufficient? Because a lot of this is about blueprints, a lot of it is about what am I trying to build.
It's not just let me go get some new players and replace the ones that aren't working. It's like, well, what are you plugging them into? And are you really thinking more fundamentally about why this season went so bad?
Because this is we. We talked about this in the last podcast with Tony. If, if you don't, if there's not an honesty about why things are not working on both sides of the ball, on both ends of the floor, however you want to say it, then you're you're really going to struggle to come up with a plan to plug these new pieces into as well as trying to reformat to
some degree. The pieces that are already there, I mean Indiana in conference is I think -.8 or point O 8 in terms of efficiency margin, which is real bad. Efficiency margins basically take your offensive efficiency, you subtract your defensive efficiency. You don't want to have a negative number like Maryland is. Maryland's offense is is actually worse than Indiana's. But their defense is much better. So their efficiency margin is essentially an A net 0. Indiana is a -, .8, which is
bad. So what are you changing? I'm just and I'm curious because what we've heard is not I need to change how I'm doing things or we need to change how we're doing things. From a coaching perspective, it's well, we're too young. OK, so so is the. So the problem is not the system.
The problem is the youth we've heard, oh we don't have we don't have our point guard OK that's be that as it May is if that's the problem then we're relying on going out and getting a point guard in in the portal the right one that can fix all of this. That really is frightening because those guys don't exist or if they do they're going to be there's a ton of teams who would like a top notch point guard to come in and fix their offense or fix their overall flow.
I mean other than money which as we've talked about is not the end all be all for players like that necessarily it's it's money, yes, but it's also fit. It's also showcasing. So is that the issue? OK, it's youth or it's a lack of continuity in terms of experience? Well, that you're not going to, that's not going to get better if simultaneously you're saying I got to go get new people, that's that was kind of the point. And look, Indiana's not the only team that's going to have to
reconcile these things. Michigan is going to have the exact same conversation. I'm assuming they're going to move on from Juwan Howard, whoever comes in there. I mean, Michigan's an attractive brand. They've got, you know, they don't have as much nil money, but they've got a lot of other things going for them. But they're going to have the advantage of a new coach probably coming in and saying things are different now. And I have this exciting new system that I've brought in from
elsewhere. And I'm going to use you the same way I use this other player who was probably awesome at the place that I just came from. And you can recruit off of that Ohio State who's had a similarly horrific season. And actually the statistics are they're they're better than Indiana, certainly offensively, but they're worse defensively.
But a new coach is going to come in there from somewhere else and say look at all the success I had here this if you go to the Exes and Joes podcast, this is that honeymoon effect. Indiana's not going to have that. It was Mike Woodson and and that's The thing is. Like you know that's what's going to make if if we keep things the same next year is going to be really, really hard because like one of two things is going to happen if they keep the exact same system of basketball.
I think we would all agree it's that's that's a very that's a needle that I needle. You really have to thread to win with this style of basketball. But if you overhaul the system like like you were saying and in the honeymoon period, it's like that's why you hire new coaches. It's because you get a two year window to be like Archie's like hey, I'm putting in the pack line and it's like this is a whole new system.
Guys are playing a new system. It's going to take some time and everybody understands, OK, it's going to take time. These guys are going to get new system. So if if, I mean this is a tough spot that we're in because if we don't change this the the, the underlying system, I'm not sure outside of faith how you think things are going to get better If you bring in a point guard. It's like this system doesn't
really allow for point guard. Hard to do things unless you're Jalen Hood Shafino. He had to do it completely on his own. But if you're going to change the system, I I think we'd all be like inherently like, yes, I wish we shot more threes and did that, but it's like now you have the problem of every time you have a new system. In basketball, it's normally associated with a new coach. There's normally A2 year honeymoon period. You know next year Woodson's not going to have that.
He can't, He can't just be like hey new system get like next year is a year you have to over perform. Like if if you come back this type of year or coming in you know gliding into the the tournament as an 11 seed I don't think would cut it. So it's like you don't have the luxury of any complaints that you have to put in a new system and have it completely fully functional on day one and firing
at pretty much all cylinders. There have been circumstances where these things have turned around but it is required other changes. So Northwestern is probably the best example of this where things that really gone off the rails for Chris Collins. You know, I mean they they had a straight they they made the tournament in 2017 and then over the course of the next four years they won 15 games, 13 games, eight games and nine games and and then they won 15 games last year. You know.
But keep in mind they had players transferring out including Miller Cop being one of those players that transferred out. There were several others and Collins had to go higher. Chris Lowry to be like a specialist on the bench to basically like take, I think it was the defense off of his hands and it's largely worked or at least at large they work last year.
The defense hasn't been as good this year, but they've they've compensated in other ways and they made the tournament last year as a seven seed and made the second round, which is a big deal, a place like Northwestern. I guess the the point here is yes, you've either got to, you've either you've either got fundamental change because your competition's dealing with that or you've got more incremental change.
But it's like OK, the the, the facade of the building isn't going to be different, but the the, the floor layout has to be completely different and someone else is in charge of that internal architecture. That's then, you know, kind of wrap this up because I don't know how much we can belabour the same point over and over again. But ultimately it's like for for donors.
And this is where I think you do have to keep this in mind in the nil era for donors, for fans to to have this season going not just the way that it's going, but to have it mirror so many February's and late January's and recent IU basketball history. We we feels like we see this all the time now with IU. It happened in with Crean. It happened with Miller. It's happening with Woodson now.
It happened with Woodson in his first year and this year where the team just falls apart down the stretch, they cease getting better. You know they they they had one really two seasons out of that stretch where they kind of pulled it together at the end and figured out a way into the tournament conversation. They didn't actually make the tournament in 2020, but nobody did. Like after a point that just that that can't be how you do
things. And I do wonder to some degree how much patience is he's even left in the reservoir and I don't think it's unfair for fans at this point to have finally gotten to the point where they they just feel like this is not working for me. This is not providing me with anything that brings me joy or excitement. It's a chore to watch the team. It's a chore to kind of see the same thing happening over and over again. So yeah, I mean and I will say as as a the.
Varsity Club member here. As a donor, at some level, you know it. That's where I go back to the you know it. It's those those years in the early Korean era, you know, we went through it, but it's like the there was never a price break. There was never, it was always the same. And I think that's where it gets frustrating. And I I will say this as a season ticket holder for 25 plus years, it's like. Less about. Even the wins and losses, like I just, it's it it.
I don't want to go into Assembly Hall in those kind of bummer atmospheres. It's not fun. Like I just, I didn't go to you know, the last the Nebraska game, partially because it's like I knew it was probably not going to be a great result. But I also kind of felt like the vibes are getting bad. Like I I really don't want to go to the next two games because I don't want to be there if people are booing and are pissed off. Like that's not a fun atmosphere. I don't want to do it for a
whole year next year. Like that's as A and I'm not going to get rid of my tickets. But you you do start to look at like this just and like you said, it's just that that's where I do think it's important. The long tail history of this is, you know, if you're giving money year over year over year, at some point it's like, look, I'm, I've been doing this for 25 years and you know, maybe it's time for someone else to give some money and I'll go give my money.
Being money is a finite resource, as we all know. It's like there's not unlimited supplies. I can put my money to work in a lot of different areas. There does come a point where it's like, look, I I'll come back when you guys have figured this out. And I'm not saying I'm going to, I'm not saying I'm doing that.
I definitely see a. Lot of I can see a. Lot of people being like and that's you know this is where it kind of becomes a spiral problems like that's where Indiana can lose some of its nil powers. Like a lot of people and a lot of people I know who are donors who are in this boat are kind of in that like you know I'm I'm just kind of I'm I'm here I'm ready.
But like you guys figure out your house and get a little more stability and then then I'll I'll lock back in and until then I'm going to go put the money in, you know some other form of entertainment, an interesting. Spot to be in across the board. Well we'll see what happens as we move forward here and and it's a it's going to be an interesting week. Indiana has to host Wisconsin who has not looked great but they're still 10 and six in the conference.
They they did have a big win at home versus Maryland that's been a that's been a sick team. I mean that team has lost five of their last seven. Some of those have been pretty close. Couple overtime losses, a home loss to Purdue. But man, losing at Michigan, losing at Rutgers. I mean, those are losses along the lines of what it would be like to lose at Indiana.
And if Michigan can pull it together and beat Wisconsin, If if Rutgers can pull it together and beat Wisconsin, there's no reason why Indiana can't pull it together and beat Minnesota or beat Wisconsin. But I'll believe it when I see it. I guess is is kind of where I'm at with things. Can I ask, can I ask you a final question? Yeah, go ahead. As we go down this stretch. Because. If you know the the vibes are bad, I think we can all agree on that. It's like it's not a great,
great time. If we win a couple of games, the vibes will get slightly better. The tournament, it seems to be off the table. But if if we're in, you know vibes are still, we've won a game or two. Like I want to ask you, you know does does it if we get an NIT berth I, you know inherently I think the answer is always yes you play but there's always that concern.
I think this is you know this is the cream thing if like I want to play in the NIT, but I don't want to play at home because I don't want to deal with bad vibes and like I sell the game. You know is is there a world and that that was not a good look didn't didn't go well. But I'm just, I'm curious, you you study this way more than I do and just kind of your feeling like is there a world where if the vibes are subpar, does it make sense to just kind of pass on the NIT and not not put
yourself in that situation? Or is it really a no brainer that if you have an NIT berth, you take it? And I'm sorry, I mean. I will say for this season, like for this, this year. I would say that if IU wins enough games to even be in the running for an NIT berth, then the season's ending will be positive because I think they'll have to win three of their last four to get into the NIT right now, which seems unlikely, but that's that.
I mean that's how bad because it's not just the record, it's also the fact that it that Indiana's 103rd now in Ken Palm. I don't know what they. I haven't even looked at the net, but I don't think the net is very good either. I mean there there's a lot of teams that are well ahead of Indiana in the NIT pecking order.
Keep that in mind you know and and every conference champion in the smaller conferences that doesn't win their automatic bid and that's normally several of them, gets an automatic NIT berth. And so Indiana's not even in the
NIT discussion. They're not close, and to get there they're going to have to probably win against three of Wisconsin, Maryland, Minnesota, Michigan State with the Maryland and Minnesota games being on the road, and probably win at least a game in the Big 10 tournament, that seems. Implausible to me Scott, at this point but so so it's almost like yeah you'd at that point I think you'd want to have the NIT
berth. I don't even know if you would I doubt you'd host because so that would take like I don't think they'd be a top four seed in the NIT. So that's that's that that's where I'm at with that. That let's check back in a week after they've played Maryland and see where their records at. But you know, I think that luckily, I guess that problem is not actually going to be now. It would get you on a pause. Yeah. All right. Gotcha. Yeah. So anyway all. Right. Well, positive note.
There you go. End on that delightful notes to end. On we'll go ahead and wrap things up. We'll have some more content coming for you later on in this week, folks, and we appreciate you sticking with us. These are not the fun times to be observing IU basketball. These are not fun times to be
podcasting about IU basketball. So if you stuck with this to the end here, even if you were just out, like cleaning your shed or, you know, getting your lawn mower blades sharpened, we appreciate you sticking with it. And certainly I want I want the
Crimson cast. Extended universe movie where you and I are in the alternate timeline where we just we've we've won 12 titles we're we're you know we're like Ohio State football where it's like we we just pod and it's like man I expect us to win every game by 10 and it's like there there's a if you believe in the multiverse there's a verse out there where a different Scott and Gale and are just like it's like we're we're like oh dude I forgot about that year we won the title
like Oh yeah we did win a title in 2012 yeah I I so many like I forgot we're at 12 championships. Miss the that or or never. I've never had that, but I've never been able to experience that level of entitlement. That sounds grand. Although it's funny because like every time I read an Ohio State person they sound miserable. That's fair. You know they they. I don't know maybe it's just like the nature of being an Ohio State person but they just they just there's not a there's not a
lot of joy. It's almost like, well now we're so concerned with fighting people or you know there's there's other fan bases that we could mention where it's just like there's there's there's not.
I don't know what the there's no ideal spot to be in but this is probably the least of the spots to be in like this is because you're not bad, bad you you can't revel in your misery all the time like it like maybe DePaul fans do and you don't have the benefit of, hey, we've won multiple titles and we've won multiple national championships.
You're just, you know, you're a, you're a distressed asset as opposed to just being a bad asset or a successful asset and that in sports is probably the worst thing to be. I'll put this out to our fans. Maybe we just. Like we'll we'll create a an alternate like a fan fiction. Just let let's have somebody else write the last 20 years and you and I can do a podcast about that. We'll just, we'll live in our alternate reality. And it's like, yeah, what happened to Galen and Scott?
Like oh, they've they've completely lost their marbles. They're they're podcasting about a world that doesn't exist, that this is, this is a different. MLM scheme that you've come up with now I love. This is great. So now now we're selling fanfic in addition to VIP episodes, tremendous stuff. Anyway, thank you to all of you for listening. As always, thanks for representing sponsor Home Field apparel. Thanks to the rest of the back home network.
Be sure to check out all of the shows and content across the network and subscribe on YouTube, follow on social, so on and so forth. So for Scott, I'm Galen, This is Crimson Cast. Thanks for joining us, folks. We will catch you on the flip side. Bring back the Bison. So long, everybody.