Ep 1048 - An Interview with Zander Diamont

You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Gas Scale and Clavio joining you. It is Wednesday, January 10th. Thanks for joining us folks. Midweek. Some struggles for Indiana Basketball, We're going to get to that a little bit later on in the week. But today we have a special podcast guest joining us which we'll talk about here in just a second. But first, just a couple quick reminders for you.

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interview. We were pleased, Scott and I, to be able to sit down for an extensive interview with former Indiana quarterback Xander Diamond who was very open about his time at Indiana and talked a lot about the process of what brought him from Southern California to the Midwest, his time playing at Indiana. And just some of the the really interesting ups and downs and kind of you know, different turns that a a college athlete's career can take in major college

football. So we're going to go ahead and get right to that interviews Andrew Diamont joining Scott and I here on Crimson Cast. Xander Diamond joining us here on the show. Xander, thanks for taking the time and great to see you back on Twitter and fully into the IU football Twittersphere. First of all, how are you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I, you know, I've been, I don't even want to say I've been

out of the loop. I've actually had Twitter for a little while and I have commented from time to time, but I don't think anybody's really picked up that it was me related to IU football. Like I was even tweeting at Mitchell Page, one of my teammates, and I didn't get a reply. I don't think he, like, realized it was me, but whatever. This is the dream, Being able to be on Twitter and not have anybody know that you're there. Actually, I kind of like that being anonymous isn't the worst

thing. So we're on, we're on video. But Zander, I'm kind of missing Where's the cigar In the bucket. Like I just figured you go with those everywhere you go, just. Yeah, yeah, they're well, Unfortunately, we don't have the bucket anymore. So you didn't get a replica out just out of that picture? That's. I do have a little replica somewhere. I think it's at my parents house. Probably that's great. I'm sorry not to be the guy where you like, walk in my house and I have like portraits of

myself. You know, I try to try to be a little more discreet than that. Walk into de Sanders. Oh, did you play football? Right, Yeah. No, it's absolutely. I love it. You were in a really interesting period of the IU football program as it was kind of coming out of that long, relatively

dark spell that happened. You know, there was, there was that little light at the end of the tunnel, it seemed like with the Heppner era, and then Terry unfortunately passes away, IU goes to a bowl game and then essentially was one of the worst teams in the conference after that for several years. You were there, as you know, Kevin Wilson and his staff had really started to build it back into a program that was able to compete and be respectable on a consistent basis within the

conference. I mean, what sticks out to you about your time with that, that group of guys and that coaching staff at Indiana at that particular period? You know, there's, I mean, there's a lot of different different things and a lot of different roads I can go down. And and to your point, like I think a lot of people underestimate how significant of a time that was for the IU football program, to be honest with you. I mean, I'm from California. I did not even know Indiana

football. I I didn't know anything about IUI, didn't know Indiana had a football team. I had never seen the logo. You're not alone in that, by the way. Right, right.

I mean I think a lot of people on the West Coast were were kind of in that boat and for what it's worth like during that time and I'm I'm not saying it's solely because of football or anything like that, but we had a lot of nationally televised games and we did go from being really a non existent program in the eyes of most people to if you ask a high school football kid about Indiana football, they do know they're in the Big 10. They do know the offense. They do know the logo like it.

It went from being really a nothing program to at least a recognizable program known for some certain things. And so you know that that staff was special in that it was led by Kevin Wilson. I don't agree with everything about Kevin, I'm sure, as you guys know in my past states a little bit, but but he he, he absolutely is an offensive genius, a football genius. And I would never deny that. I don't think anybody else would. He was incredibly intelligent as it relates to football.

And there were some other guys on the staff that were amazing as well. I mean, Coach McCullough has gone on to have a super storied coaching career. Coach John's just had a ton of success at Duke. My brother actually was playing there. So I got to see him about a year ago. Coach try incredible offensive line coach. And then just the talent that we had.

I mean again, like, you know, you look at six, six wins, seven win seasons for IU and you're like, OK, yeah, you're kind of, you're kind of a middle of the pack football team. But what people don't understand is like the Big 10 E at that point in time, in my opinion, and I think in most honest people's opinion, was the best conference in college football. I mean, you had Michigan State the best defense in the country.

You had Ohio State a couple of those years are are arguably the best college football teams ever. Michigan is always Michigan. Even in their down years, Michigan is still full of five star recruits on the bench. On the field I I like, I still remember after that Michigan, Michigan game walking around the field and and walking up to their players and being like these dudes are just freaks.

There's freaks everywhere. So you know people don't understand how hard it is to fight the history of the Big 10 and Indiana is up against a a century of history And So what Indiana was able to do during that period of time and and since is really a testament to the staff the talent of the players. I mean look at look at how many of those guys are our guys are still in the NFL today. You've got I mean the list is is pretty significant of guys that

got onto an NFL field. Our team was loaded with NFL talent that could have played at Ohio State's, Michigan's any of those schools. You know, we're talking Nate Sudfeld, Jordan Howard, Tevin Coleman, Kofi Hughes, Cody Latimer, Shane Wynne, Dan Feeney, Jason Spriggs. They're really and, and I know I'm forgetting guys too, but they're really were NFL dudes all over that field.

So a lot of people just don't, a lot of people don't recognize how good of a football program we really were because we also played in a in a an incredibly challenging conference. But we went toe to toe with the big guys every week. That group of players, I mean that whole list that you mentioned and obviously there's a few others we could throw in

there as well. When you talked with them as teammates, like what was it that drew you to IU to play under Kevin Wilson and that coaching staff and what was it that was drawing that? Like what was the what what helped to to make you think I'm going to take a chance and go to this program that as you said was kind of a non entity essentially in the Big 10 and nationally in college football.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I I can, I can speak to my reasoning and some of the guys I just listed were a year or two older than me. So I I don't, I I wasn't there for their recruiting process per SE. But for me, I was kind of a unique situation. I played football in in the city of Los Angeles, very densely

populated, full of athletes. I mean, there's there are guys that played high school football in LA that are better than dudes playing in college today that didn't have a single offer because there's just so much talent everywhere in California and in LA specifically. And so for me, I was in this really weird spot as a high school football player where my my stats were great. I didn't come from a football family. I was the first person in my

family to play football. We had no idea how to navigate the recruiting process and and kind of get the hype machine to work. It was kind of in this period where like the online systems were starting and like huddle was becoming a thing and so we didn't really know how to navigate that stuff. So I I, I I end up starting as a sophomore at Venice High School. I have a a pretty good season as a sophomore, you know, nothing crazy.

My junior season, I have a a a great season and I have some really good tape and I went to all the quarterback camps. I mean, I was part of the Steve Clarkson era and I threw every single weekend with all the best quarterbacks really on the West Coast. But for whatever reason, I'm like, why am I not getting recruited? I mean, I weighed 145 lbs. I am like 6-1 and a half, six, two. So the height wasn't really an

issue, but I was super skinny. So my junior year goes by and you know, again, I'm not really getting recruited. I'm not going to the recruiting events though either. I'm just training and doing my quarterback coaching, which I had done for a long time and so we knew a quarterback coach in Oklahoma long storied. I I won't get into it how I knew how I knew him. His name's Joe Dickinson,

incredible quarterback coach. Probably the best I've encountered and Joe was the off was the offensive coordinator probably a decade prior at Oklahoma and I believe they won the national championship. So my head coach who knew Joe Dickinson for 20 years sends Joe my tape and he goes, hey, you know you should look at this kid like what? Like help us kind of navigate this. Why isn't he getting recruited? He goes send, send, send him

out. And I actually knew Joe by the way since when I was much younger I had seen him in probably 5-6 seven years. So I fly out to Oklahoma and I go train for a weekend with Joe. I'm that weekend I am throwing with Joe David Cornwell who was the number one. I believe he was the number one high school quarterback in the country at the time. And another kid, I can't. I'm blanking on his name but this kid was the he was Mr. Football Michigan, if I or maybe Ohio I think Michigan if I

remember correctly. And I'm lighting lighting it up with these dudes. Again, I'm I'm skinnier than them whatever. But I'm. I'm slinging it. And so Joe sends my tape to one of his former teammates, Seth Luttrell, who's the offensive coordinator at IUI. Know nothing about IU. Joe starts telling me, you know what, this could be a really good fit for you, blah, blah, blah. And basically Indiana calls. And they go, they saw my tape, they liked it. And they were.

They had this perspective that because I was from California, I would never come to Indiana. And that was kind of strange to me. And so they said, hey, we want you to come out here and come to our camp. We want to see that you're even serious about coming to school in the Midwest. I have no offers at this point.

So I go to Indiana. We land my my dad and I drive into Bloomington. It's probably 9:10 PM by the time we're in Bloomington, and we're walking around the square and we're walking around Kirkwood. We see the sample Gates and I go, if I get offered, I'm coming here. My, my parents didn't go to like a rah, rah, university, you know, that kind of Big 10 feel. I had never even stepped foot on a campus like that.

I was used to UCLAUSC, you know, again, great campuses and universities, but they don't have the same, the same. Vibe. Ethos that in Indiana has and so I I already knew I was like these guys offer I'm I'm going here. I haven't even met the coaches yet. I'm like this is a university. I want to be part of something like this. I want to be in the Big 10 and so I do the camp and I have a great time meeting all the coaches. Great experience you know obviously it's recruiting they

all. Every school makes a good experience on a recruiting day. I fly back to LA they send Kevin Johns out to watch me throw. So they have not seen me throw yet in person. This is now going into my senior football season. I've put on probably 10 lbs, so maybe I'm 155, almost 160 and I'm I'm playing my best football at this point that I've played in my life. Coach Johns comes and watch, watches me throw and I just light it up the whole day and they offer me when he goes back.

I commit on the spot. I go into my senior year of football, and so I I guess that whole story is just to explain, I was kind of in this. My whole story was sort of weird and the fact that I ended up on Indiana's radar was really by fate or happenstance or whatever. And so I think my experience was a little bit different than most people's. But what it showed me was like, why is this school, this university with this incredible history and this unbelievable campus and this brand and this

name? Why would you take, why would you have the mindset that people from other states wouldn't come here? It's like every kid from LA, inner city kids dream is to get out of the hood. Not that I was in the hood, but I mean my high school was in the

hood. But to get out of the hood and go be in this Immaculate campus environment that is like you couldn't put a price on. And so I found that to just be kind of interesting and and ultimately being around that environment is what compelled me to want to go to IU. Granted, I was deciding between IU and probably what would have been like a Fresno State or something like that. But I, I, I think, I think most people walk away from being at IU and they go, this place is incredible, you know?

Well, along along those lines, you're talking about, you know, you being surprised that IU is not recruiting California. You know, the very high level, you know, felt like when Kevin Wilson came to IU, one of his big things was like, hey, this is we do football a certain way at places like Oklahoma and we got to change that at IU. You were there, you know, near

the end of his tenure. But what, what are the things that you saw outside of, you know, maybe accidentally recruiting California, but like things that you saw with Kevin Wilson and like trying to, you know, move the Indiana program forward, being inside the program? Well, yeah, I mean, Kevin did a lot of things in that respect. I think that he really did, to your point, bring that mindset of like, we need to treat this program like we're Oklahoma.

Whether we're there yet or not, it doesn't matter. That's how you get there. You have to fund this thing to get it there. And so to again to Wilson's credit, one of the things that he was really adamant about was just kind of creating the right player environment and experience. And that that starts with like, our meals. I mean, he was busting the administration's ass to get us better food and to be like, yo, these we need to be, these guys are elite athletes.

We need to be walking in these meal rooms and we should be pretty jazzed up to eat the food. It shouldn't be like dog food. And I, and from what I heard before he came, it was really bad. The uniforms, I know he tried to get them to be more like in Oklahoma, like Indiana's uniforms. And I I I know I joked a lot about this on Twitter and kind of stir stirred it, stirred it up a little bit.

But their uniforms historically just look kind of goofy, like it just doesn't look it. It doesn't have that traditional quality, sophisticated feel. It looks like sloppy and thrown together. And so I even even something small like that was something that he did then. You know we get into this era of everybody talking about Oregon and these flash uniforms and we need to do the helmet.

Wilson brings the Chrome helmets and again, I don't know that that was necessarily him that came up with that idea. I'm not sure who it was, but that was a significant investment. From what I understand each one of those helmets is like 1000 bucks to to paint. So like these things are like, you know, you look at it and you kind of don't think about it, but those things were expensive and and significant, were you? I always get the timeline.

Were you, were you there when they unveiled the was it legitimately that? I mean by the way, I'm, I'm always been a fan of the Chrome helmets. I like those. But like there was some social early social media then that people just freaking like players freaking out. Like, were you guys that excited to wear them? Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, it was kind of the first taste that we got of like, oh, this is some legit big time program shit to do here.

Like we're going to have just an alternate helmet that looks sick and it's flashy and whatever, you know, So again, like you're a kid did. You did you push Wilson like we want to put like, did you push him for the games you wanted to wear those for? Like we want them all games.

I wasn't until my junior year, I wasn't one of those guys who necessarily could go. I wasn't knocking on the door the coaches to be like can we wear these this you know tonight whatever I did have who was my soft like my freshman and sophomore here. I mean Sudfeld was you know he was the guy Tevin was a guy Shane Wynne was just because he was kind of like the heart of the team character kind of the

you know he he played that role. He was the guy who could stand up and make a joke in a team meeting and be like, you know, let's wear this or or something. And again, it it's not even that. Like that was some big topic of discussion. That's kind of the least of your worries when you're when you're getting ready to play Michigan on national TV. But my point is, is those little things really add up. The recruiting experience that I saw Wilson and those guys put together was great.

The weight room that I use has always been great. It's world class. It was I think the second largest, if not the largest weight room in the country for a significant period of time. I don't know if it still is. And then obviously the stadium, I mean that that started during Wilson's era. I know it didn't actually the construction didn't start during the Wilson era, but that concept started they they were selling me on that when I came on my

recruiting trip. So, you know, these things have a have a have a timeline, but just the tone, you know, like, oh, another thing actually Speaking of like nationally televised games, Wilson, I remember repeatedly would bring up the fact that he was and and I don't know how these discussions happened behind the scenes, but he was fighting to get us better game times, better TV slots and things like that.

He wanted to play on national TV, like, you know, from a competitiveness, from coming from the places that he came from. Like that meant something. To him, I I remember when they reshuffled the divisions and you know, Indiana gets put in the Big 10 E They know previously they've been in the were they the Leaders division or the Legends division, Scott, I can't remember. But they they had the old setup. Nobody remembers which was

which. But you know, I and A lot of people were very concerned about being in the Big 10 E and I remember hearing an anecdote that Wilson was like, well, you know, you want to be in the division where you're playing Ohio State and Michigan and Penn State all the time, 'cause that means you're you're playing in more prominent games. And you know you can sell that to players that are coming in that you know you're, you're getting a chance to play against

the best. And And I'm guessing in the back of his mind, he's like, well, that's also going to get us on national television more, which hopefully expands the brand a bit more as well. Yeah, and and I'm sure he thought about those things now. What was the, you know, the obviously your freshman year you had one of the highest highs of the last 15 years as a team beating Mizzou on the road, then

you know that. But that had been proceeded by losing to Bowling Green. You had the loss the next week to Maryland. Then Sudfield goes down with the injury a couple of weeks later against Iowa. And you're a freshman that year, if I remember correctly. And now you're in a position where you got to start because there's really not another quarterback on the roster.

Like, what was that experience like and how did the team and the coaching staff handle just that huge kind of variation between the highs and the lows and obviously finishing with that huge high of you, you know, running the touchdown in at the end and winning the bucket? Yeah, it's funny you bring up like Bowling Green in Missouri because to me that that was

really the tale of two seasons. Like, in a way, I don't even remember that part of the season because it was such a I I lived 2 lives in that span of four months or however long it was. But I do remember just that Bowling Green feeling like, what the fuck is going on? We just walked into this shitty little stadium. This team is in some nothing league. And again, I'm. I'm not trying to hate on anybody.

This was just like my perspective as a kid coming out of high school from California. Like we're let's go stomp these dudes. And we should have. But they were, they were good. Well, they're. Like, where's Bowling Green? Like, right. Exactly. But Bowling Green was actually a

a good football team that year. Again no excuse regardless but and and that's proven by us beating Missouri but I'll I'll kind of paint the the story a little bit more with a little bit more detail as to how that all happened. So, so first of all, I come into IU. We have Nate Sudfeld and Trey Roberson. Trey Roberson also played in the NFL, by the way, for a period of time. But we have. We have fond memories of Trey. You know he was he.

I loved. I loved Trey. And he was he he treated me really nicely. He was, he was awesome and an incredible athlete. But I'm coming into IUI graduate high school early to come get on campus sooner. Again, I'm undersized, underdeveloped. I didn't play in a sophisticated offense in high school, and so I'm like, great. I'm gonna sit behind these guys for a couple years and I'm going to get developed and I'm going to get some size and then I'm

going to get my shot. That was the thought, right? So I come in, all the sudden they mismanage the situation between Nate and Trey, which again that that speaks some of the downside of of, you know, the staff and some things that I, I, I think me and most of the team would probably agree on. They mismanage that situation. Trey leaves and it's now Nate. Myself, Nate Boudreaux who is a walk on but was a 64250. Big dude had been in the system. He knew the offense incredibly

well. So we get we get you know, we get into this football season about two weeks before the Iowa game where Nate gets hurt. Chris Covington, linebacker, awesome guy. By the way. I love Chris, one of my favorite teammates. He's playing catch on the field before practice. Chris Covington can throw a football 80 yards with the tightest spiral you've ever seen in your life effortlessly. OK, so we're watching him, me, Nate, everybody before practice.

None of us have seen him pick up a football. He's a freshman, too at this point. I think he was a freshman. He's throwing the ball and we're going, holy shit, this might be it. They might have just found Jamarcus Russell and we're all and and and I see the coaches seeing this and I'm like, oh, this is it, dude. Like, like, I'm here. I'm riding the bench. This dude's coming in, but but also in the back of my mind, I'm going, OK, this guy's never

really played quarterback. This is a whole different thing. I mean, being able to throw a football far is 1. Very, very, very small trait that matters in the list of traits needed to play quarterback at a high level And so. But anyway, it was freakish athlete. And so the next day I show up at practice. I don't remember if it was literally the next day, but it was something like that. I probably made some mistake or something. Or no, it's my weight. I wasn't gaining enough weight.

By the way, I'm eating 5000 calories. I'm in a football, you know. Hard to By the way, hard to hard to eat 5000 calories a day isn't. It I used to throw up four days a week and I couldn't hold my food down. It was on. It was that's a whole nother story. But the the tale of my career was always too skinny and they thought I was some like party frat boy, which we can talk about later. So anyway, so Wilson goes, you're you're not gaining enough fucking weight one day.

Then he goes, Chris, you're playing quarterback, get over here. They pull Chris Covington from the defense. By the way, I'm the two at this point behind Nate. We're in the middle of a football season. And Chris Covington, they start trying to turn him into some Wildcat, you know, whatever quarterback. He has a couple cool plays in practice and they're like, OK, maybe there's something here.

We go to the Iowa game. I've now not had reps for two or three weeks in practice, and even before that, I'm just the skinny freshman. Nate's taken all my reps. He's going step aside, dude, I'm playing. I'm in the middle of a fucking football season. Like, I'm taking these reps, and I don't blame him for that, by the way. So they start giving all of my reps to Chris. I'm just standing on the sidelines getting cold, and we get to the Iowa game.

Nate goes down. Chris Covington goes in the game, and I'm also standing there on the sideline during that Iowa game thinking you guys better not fucking put me in here. You haven't given me a Rep in three weeks. Like like like I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose it. So they they don't. They put Chris in. Chris gets hurt that game.

By the way, I think he tore his ACLI show up the next day and I'm sitting in the hot tub with my best friend on the team, Ty Smith, who's Tracy Smith, the baseball coach's son. He was a walk on and we're sitting in the hot tub and he's just looking at me and his face is just white and he's like, he's just like, dude, you're playing Michigan State next week. Like you're always laugh.

You're QB one, man. You're QB one, like, he's just, he's just like, and I'm standing here like this, All right, like, let's go. This is kind of how my life goes. Like, I had a similar experience in high school when I took the position. So I'm like whatever, like, you know, in my own delusion, I'm like I'm going to go out there and ball out, you know,

whatever. So that's kind of how that whole I'm, I kind of forgot the the initial question but that's how that whole thing plays out so. Now. Now we're going into Michigan State #1 defense in the country, six NFL draft picks on the other on the other defense, and I've had no reps for a month. My last game was against Sylmar in LA, in the playoffs, high school football. I weigh 158 lbs. And it's funny, 'cause the announcers going into that game, they're like, they lied about my

weight to make me sound bigger. So they said I was 175. They're like, Xander's coming out here. He's looking pretty skinny. He's 175 lbs, I'm 158 lbs and I'm like, dude, if I could ever weigh 175 lbs, I'm going to be all big 10, is what I was thinking. And so we go out to Michigan State.

I play absolutely terrible. The game is just, I mean, it's, I can't even communicate to anybody who has not done it how fast it's going, even just compared to practice and then practice compared to high school games, games compared to practice. The speed is like just like nothing I've experienced and I I can't even throw a ball. Like I can't throw the ball to a hitch route that I've thrown my

whole life. By the way, I was I wasn't even considered a dual threat in high school, which is funny. A lot of people at IU think I'm like some runner. I was a pocket passer. I was always known my whole life as a thrower until I came to college. And so I can't. I'm throwing the ball into the dirt. I can't even, like, feel my limbs. It's just too significant of a moment for me. I mean, I I go to snap. I'll never forget. I go to take.

I think it was the first snap. I'm about to snap the ball and I look up and on the Jumbotron is the camera is on my face. So my face is the entirety of the Jumbotron. And I go look up and I'm seeing myself at 300 feet. And I'm about to take the first step against Michigan State on homecoming, on national TV, against the best defense in the country. And I freeze and I'm like, oh, OK, wait. And now I snap the ball. So yeah, that's how that all started.

Well and and you talk about the Big 10 E like you know on top of all of that you're you get in the teeth of that like you have Michigan State who had the best defense in the country that year and then the rest of your games. And I know you know this, but it's like you're for to relive the audience. You're then at Michigan, home to Penn State, I guess a breather at Rutgers and then you're at Ohio State.

Like you just get you get at Michigan, at Ohio State, Penn State and and maybe the best Michigan State team in like 20 years. Like you got the teeth of the. Big 10 E Like right in your freshman year? Yeah, I don't know how many people really had an understanding of the situation I was in, but it's as basically as bad of a situation as you can be put in in college football, period. No warm up games, no Gimme

games. I didn't get to play Indiana State. I never got to like and and again like I said, I wasn't getting any reps. So it was actually worse behind the scenes than people thought it was on the surface. And you know, I'm coming from a senior football season where I was the man, I was LA City

player of the year. I threw 50 touchdowns like, you know it. It was quite a humbling learning experience and and an incredible experience and so yeah, I mean speaking to to your point about the the falling games, I'll kind of talk through those a little bit. So the next week I go into Michigan in the Big House and I have a really good week of practice. I'm feeling pretty good. But it's Friday before the Saturday game. It's 19° out with wind.

Chill, Wilson goes. We're going to practice outside, OK? Not what I would do, but let's let's go. We practice outside. The ball is a ice cube. No one can do anything. There's fumbles all over the field. No one's catching it like it was just the sloppiest, worst pregame practice that you could have had. And my hands are numb and the ball keeps getting snapped at me. And I I would drop it and then pick it up off the ground and to proceed with the play.

Wilson comes up to me and guts me in front of the team. And by the way, I have no problem with being coached hard. My high school head coach would fucking grab me, punch me in the chest on the sideline. And I love this man. So it's this isn't like I have some issue being coached hard by any means. I actually prefer that style of coaching. But Wilson guts me in front of

the team. All the quarterbacks are standing around me and he basically says if we don't go to a ball game this year, it's my fault. And I'm like, I'm, I have fucking tears rolling down my face. I'm like, Oh my God, this is terrible. Like, it just was the worst way to go into a game. So the next, the next day I'm playing Michigan in the Big House and I have a a slightly better game, slightly better. I mean, I I have a couple runs, I feel a little more comfortable, but it's still

atrocious. I mean, just terrible. But I break for one run where I had like a 45 yard run down the sideline and embarrassingly, I step out of bounds sooner than I should have. There was a guy on my back again, I think this guy's right on me, but he's like 6 yards behind me. I could have kept going for another 20 yards. I step out of bounds. I come to to practice the next day.

John's goes on a rant about that, about the fact that I've embarrassed myself on national TV because I stepped out of bounds early and I'm not really the type to take it like. So I kind of give it back to him. And I say some things about the fact that he played D3 football and he's never fucking been on a national stage. And you know some shit like that. And I I do like 2000 yards of bear crawls or whatever.

My punishment was that day and we get into an absolute yelling match in front of the offense and and I think I threw my cleat at him and it just crazed right by him and so we got into it pretty pretty bad and and and again part of the place that I'm internally coming from is like you guys put me in this position like you got rid of Trey. You didn't give me reps and now you're gonna make this out to be like, I'm fucking this season.

You know, like I didn't ask for this and and that's again, like the the perspective of a 1920 year old in this kind of situation. And so the following week I think you said we had Penn State at home. I play. I I remember it like yesterday I snapped the ball and there's just a moment where everything slowed down and it's like high school again. And I was like, OK, this is what I've been waiting for.

This is what you're supposed to do on game two or three of the preseason playing nobody schools. And I finally have this moment where everything just goes and I see my my receiver running a little 5 yard in route and I put it on him and I'm like OK, I can play. And I finally have my first like actual game against Penn State and we go toe to toe with Penn State. We were in a battle with them and it was a very low scoring

physical game. I mean, I was getting just smoked all over the field running, diving from first downs. And after that game I really got the the respect of the team and Anthony Cursaro our our walk on tight end. Awesome guy, love him, still talk to him to to this day and he comes in the locker room and he's like, dude, you fucking fought your ass off. And so this was kind of the shift moment. We go to Rutgers the next week. A lot of people don't remember

that game. I had 13 dropped passes against Rutgers, 13 drop passes. Again. I throw my first touchdown to Shane. When everything slows down, this is finally, again, by no means a Gimme game, this is a Big Ten team, but but it's an easier opponent. First play of the game, I think I run for a first down and I'm like, OK, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling loose. I know the offense now I'm I'm, I'm getting comfortable and we come in.

We come into our offensive meeting the next week and to his credit Coach Johns puts up a a a slide showing every dropped pass from that game where I hit dudes right here in the face. And we did a calculation of what the offensive the offense would have looked like that year and it or that game and it would have been about 330 yards passing. And for sure we beat them. And so again the narrative is still Xander can't throw. He sucks. It's this, it's that. But if you watch that game it

was really a different story. Whatever. I'm not going to change anyone's opinion today. It doesn't, it doesn't really matter. But I think the next week we go to Ohio State, we're in the Horseshoe again. I'm feeling pretty good coming off that Rutgers game and I have a pretty darn good showing in the Horseshoe against the best team in the country. Again, not something to brag about, but I have some

significant passes. I have a huge run that goes down to the one yard line and we are beating them going into the half, to Tevin Coleman's credit, by the way, let me just be clear about that. So now we're going into the Purdue game. I think is is right after that back at home and I'm like, this is the one we cannot lose. Like nothing matters except for this game. Like we're winning this fucking game.

Granted, I'm having to go into class like this every week, 'cause I'm like, dude, I'm not trying to be the guy who's, you know, destroying this season where we beat Missouri and we're probably gonna go to our first bowl game, for sure would have gone to our first bowl game. For those for those listening on the podcast only, he put his hood over his head there. So, yeah, just Anyway, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, sorry I didn't think about that.

But I mean I I I I remember I think 2 weeks prior I I went to some party after a game or something like that and I'm literally getting heckled going into the frat house, you know, and it's like I but I totally get it. Again I'm not complaining. That's that's the role. That's what I signed up for. And you know I I I like being in that position but but it was a a an interesting time in my life and so I go into the Purdue game and and we've got to win. We have a great week of practice.

I'm playing the best football I've played. I know the offense now also part of it was like, you know, they have to open up the offense for me. You can't keep putting me in this position where it's first down handed to Tevin. Second down handed to Tevin, OK, it's third and 12. Xander, make something happen like that's not how you fucking play football and and the

coaching staff knew that. But also you're kind of in this catch 22 of like, are we putting it in the hands of the 158 LB freshman that didn't get any reps or are we going to hand it to our Heisman running back? Obviously you're going to hand it to your Heisman running back. So we get into the Purdue game and they actually start to open up the offense for me and it's my best showing of the season and we get into this, You know, we end up in this kind of needing to get a game-winning

drive. I throw a a really late flat to Shane. When he catches it, he makes an incredible diving first down. We get to the middle of the field and we call I think it was Ohio. It's like a curl flat concept and for the only time I've ever thrown that ball that whole season, for whatever reason, they're playing cover two in the the curl in the middle of the field opens up, which is like the fourth option on that play. And I hit Shane when he gets a first down, then we're marching

down. D'Angelo has some unbelievable runs, then it's we're on that one yard line and they call an inside hand off to to D'Angelo. I see an opening. I know I'm walking in the end zone. I pull the ball. That was not part of the play, by the way. My first touchdown when I was a freshman, I'm sorry, My first touchdown in the first game of the season against Michigan State. I pull the ball to score that first run. And that was not part of our offense either.

But I see a guarantee and this is a critical situation. I pull the ball. I score glory. Finally we get the win. Now everyone loves me and you know whatever it's great and and that leads to this kind of. I mean that that win was life changing for me. Best high to end on possible in in that season. Going to the locker room I'm sure this is.

Before you get to the long run, I I'm curious 'cause even as a a fan at that game and I remember looking like it doesn't look like the play was called for Xander to to do a run like I'm and you said it happened the Michigan State game. How does you know the Purdue one wins the game? What's the reaction of the coaching staff and Kevin Wilson when you come back after that? Is it kind of like a?

You shouldn't have done that, but it's a good thing it worked or else you're doing 5000 yards of? Yeah, that that's exactly what it is. It was trying to think like what he he kind of like he he goes to shake my hand and he like aggressively kind of pulled me in and he's like he said something like if that didn't fucking work, like you're done, you know, like like literally, like it was just very intense, right? And I'm like, well, it did work, motherfucker. So. Whatever and so.

Bucket baby. Yeah. And I and I will say, you know, like to this day, and I know that Wilson had the same perspective and I know D'Angelo to some degree had the same perspective. D'Angelo had a couple huge runs. He was one of those guys who was also like the heart of our Team Bloomington kid. I wish D'Angelo had that moment. Like in all honesty, like if anyone deserves to have the glory in that moment, the game-winning in this tumultuous season, it was D'Angelo and I

took that from him. I took it in the moment of like in. I took it in the moment of like a heated game. Obviously I'm just reacting. It was not an intentional. I want the touchdown. It obviously had nothing to do with that and I know D'Angelo knows that. He said that to me, but but still, like he should have had that moment. And so that was something that Wilson brought up, you know, I think in front of the team like that, if I like I if that didn't work, I would be fucked, basically.

So yeah. Anyway, sorry. Sorry. So you're you get to the locker room? Yes. Let's go. So I mean, you know, obviously great moment on the field after the fans are on the field, my dad comes down and we're just like finally, you know, it was just such a hard, hard year and we go into the locker room, everybody's stoked, we got the bucket and one of the administrators is handing out cigars. So I never knew about a no smoking rule. And if the administrator's handing out cigars, I'm thinking

what the fuck? I mean, you're supposed to light these, aren't you? We're not chewing on it. And so, So we're in the locker room, everybody's smoking cigars and I pose for a picture, bucket cigar. It's a great shot, goes on my Instagram and it just goes haywire, which I had. I did not expect to any degree. You know, if anything, I would have thought everybody would hate on it and be like, yo, you're a loser. You had a terrible season. Don't stop trying to flex at the

end. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I would have thought probably would have been the reaction, but it wasn't. It was the total opposite to the Indiana fan base's credit. So. So that moment happens, obviously. Go out that night, great time. The teams together, celebratory moment. The next day we come into our meeting. Wilson walks into this meeting,

he walks in and he's pissed. It's like, you can immediately tell and everybody's kind of looking at each other like, OK, dude, we just had this like, very tough season. No one asked for Sandra to have to be thrown into this situation. Like, we just beat Purdue.

What are you pissed about? He gets in the meeting and he goes, he brings up the photo and he says, quote, UN quote, this is the most embarrassing moment of my football career in front of the whole team and I'm thinking to myself, you went one in 10. How is this the most embarrassing moment of your football career? One in 11, yeah. One in 11 and that's I'm thinking, how is this the most embarrassing moment of your football career? Like, what are you talking

about? And again I just get kind of put on this. I get made an example of in front of the team the the whole team completely disagreed with this sentiment. Obviously it's not like everyone else if if the whole team was looking at me going, dude, not cool you made it about you or or something which obviously none of those perspectives are sensical in any in any measure.

And so you know he he, he, he just kind of uses this to make an example of me and it just, you know, I don't know what it was about. But these guys just had this this problem with me for the fact that I was too skinny for the fact that I was a little flashy, that I was confident that I, you know, whatever it it was. But the the strangest part about it for me was that's why they recruited me. Like when Wilson offered me, he sat me in his office and he's like, dude, I watch your tape.

I love your energy. I love how your teammates rally around you. I love the swag. The word he used was the swag you play with. And so then when that actually is on display on their team, suddenly it's like this problem. And and this, to me was also a reflection of part of the problem with Indiana football. Because if we were celebrating, if we were energetic, Wilson wanted to kind of shut it down. And it was like, dude, we're feeling good. We're feeling confident.

We're playing Michigan, we're playing Ohio State. Like, let the ethos of the team be what it's going to be in that moment. Yeah, there's a limit. There's a line you don't want to cross. But we were never close and it was like, this is the missing ingredient. Well. Why do you think that is? I mean, because on the one hand, Wilson's trying to get more attention on the program. He's he's trying to change up the branding, he's doing all

these things. I mean that seems like it's a disconnect from from that particular approach. Well, well, the first thing I'll say is it wasn't just Wilson. Coach Johns was the same way The OC and again I I just want to be clear. I'm not just for anyone listening. I'm not trying to make myself out to be some victim. I'm not trying to build to to paint these coaches in some bad light. These got first of all being a head coach in college football is one of the hardest jobs on planet earth.

OK, so anyone who can even do it I I give credit to. Also Wilson was not all bad. Coach Johns was not all bad. I had great times with them and they definitely had, especially as I got older. They had a deep respect for me and I had a deep respect for them. I busted my fucking ass. I played hard as hell and I showed up every practice like it was a game. And so I I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to paint some narrative because the media has already.

When I left, they kind of took things a little further than I meant for them to go. But you ask why that is. First of all, in this case of Kevin Johns, Kevin is just a conservative by the book guy. OK, so our personalities are completely different. He's from middle America, super conservative. I'm from LA. My dad was an actor and I went to school in LA City, so we were

just different in that way. Coach Wilson, I I can't fully wrap my head around what where it came from with him because to your point, he wanted the program to have attention. He wanted us to have money. He wanted us to have the sexiest offense in the Big 10. To me, there was some weird insecurity around a player or certain players getting the

attention. Suddenly, it's not about this offensive mastermind and it's about Xander or it's about Tevin or whoever, you know, Shane or what, whatever it was. And I think also there was this weird. I was kind of in this weird situation, because by no means at that point in time was I the best player on the team, right? But I was the most known player on the team. More people knew me walking around campus than probably knew Tevin Coleman, which was kind of a weird thing.

And so like to your point, like you use the word like folklore folk. Full hero. Yeah, like I I had kind of that thing going and I think that bothered Kevin. And again, like, I'm not saying that he's wrong for feeling that way. He didn't handle it the right way and he didn't harness it.

And the best coaches, when they have a guy like that, they use it and they harness it and they, you know they they they have a way of kind of of of harnessing it and and turning it into something more and rallying the team around it. And you know and so he just didn't do that and he had this this weird thing towards me and he'd have these moments where he was he fucking, he loved me because of the way that I played and how hard I played and I was tough and all those things.

And I I think to some degree I kind of reminded him of him because he was a smaller guy. He was a walk on he he played football and so I was sort of that actualized and then but also he like hated attention not being on him or being on anybody I guess. And so yeah, I don't, I I don't fully understand the psychology of it, but it was it was it was very difficult to manage as a player, I'll say that. Yeah well it's probably, I mean in a weird way it's good it

happened then. I know it's always like the the everyone talks about now like man and you know under nil rules. But you know had had that happened today, that picture would have been immediately like you know T-shirts. Nil like it it would have probably been an even bigger sore point for Kevin Wilson type because then it's like you're probably making nil money on it and it would have even caused more of a strife. But I I I hear you and it's it's for me as a fan, like, I love

the picture. Like that's something I think we like with, you know, Coach Cignetti coming on now, kind of having that swagger. Like I think as IU football fans we are looking for a little bit of that swagger. And that was kind of this one moment. It's like, oh man, we there's this Xander with the bucket. Like, let's go like this is great. And it's a bummer to hear retrospectively that it wasn't, you know, it felt like that could have been something that

was leaned into. And it's almost a great story of like, hey, like this was a guy who wasn't supposed to be starting at the end. But, you know we we got him to a point where we won a bucket game and like, he's fired up and like this is kind of a great recruiting story. It's a it's kind of a missed opportunity that wasn't used that way. Yeah, I completely agree. It was. It was a missed opportunity.

It was frustrating. And the reality is, is if you are going to be a football program that is going to turn the tide of history, you're going to need some other X ingredient, something that you didn't draw on a whiteboard. And I think Deion Sanders understands that. And you see these programs that that go through a shift and they understand that and unfortunately, I think Wilson just didn't. Well, OK, so I want to get to a couple of things in order after that then.

So the next two seasons you do kind of change history a bit. Indiana goes to back-to-back bowl games for the first time in forever, goes to a bowl game for the first time in in almost a decade in 2015. I mean what was the vibe and and the overall experience like on those teams? People forget how weird that 2015 season was. You know you win four games to start the season obviously Sud Feld's back and and and so forth.

But then a six game losing streak in the middle of the season and and that normally means audios, machachos, like we're not coming out of this tailspin only to come back and win those final two games and then get into the road, on the road and get into that game. You know the pinstripal. So what was that ride like and and was there a was there something tangibly that changed that allowed that season to end differently than what we'd seen from IU football previously?

I think one thing is that freshman team, I think if I remember correctly, we had a pretty young receiver group. So all of those guys were back, basically, except for maybe Nick Stoner. But all those guys were back, what, my sophomore year? So that that following season Suddi came off that injury. So he's fired up. It's it's his NFL year. Like he's, he knows he's got to show out. We just like to be honest, first of all we had a shit load of talent. Like just straight up a ton of talent.

Again, I think Jordan Howard came that year. Jordan was an unbelievable running back. Like everybody talks about Tevin again, I don't want to even in the slightest make it sound like I'm knocking anyone or comparing anybody, but but Jordan brought a certain level of physicality that Tevin and no running back that I've ever been around since like Pop Warner has brought. When we played Michigan, Jordan was punishing people on the field.

And when you have that combined with the ability to spread out the field with an NFL caliber quarterback, throw the ball everywhere, hurry up offense and you're punishing the defense on the ground. And you've got Dan Feeney and Jason Spriggs, who are NFL caliber lineman, and Colin Rehrig, who was also incredible. And even a change of pace back 'cause Devine Redding was, was the back up and ran for 1000 yards. Hundred, 100% that.

That concoction was right. And you've got Suddy now, and you've also got me now coming off of that whole freshman season. I was a different guy my sophomore year so I'm also pushing Suddy again I don't know if he would say this but I that's how I felt at least in in in fall camp and and in some of these things like to some degree I did end the season with some electricity and he's definitely

you. You know, we're both very competitive and I love study, but we, we were competitive with each other for sure, like we were boys. But when we stepped on the field it was there's a little bit of like, you know, we're competing even even though it was studies team, like, I just want to be clear about that. I'm not trying to make it sound like we were truly competing. I felt like we were, but I also knew it was studies team. So all of those things are there.

We also have the feeling of like, OK, well last season should have been a bowl season, a story season, and it wasn't and it was kind of out of everyone's control. This season, it's gonna be that year and to be honest we should have won more games even that season. And I will say this is my personal feeling. I don't know if anyone else on the team will agree. I think I could have been utilized the way that I was utilized my junior year as this mix up, short down sort of

quarterback. I think if they use me that way my sophomore year we we bring another edge that probably gets us another win or two. That's just my personal feeling. But but we're just a fucking really, really, really good football team. Then we have the whole Ohio State thing where I get again, here I am like best team in the country, biggest moment of the season. I come up, I'm, I'm getting thrown on the field, my arm is completely cold like and I have this moment again.

And even though that moment was short lived, after that game I go to Penn State and I get hurt. That still gave an energy, a momentum. I mean, everyone was talking about us after that Ohio State game. It was the third most, I believe it was the third most watched regular season college football game that year. And so that just also creates a ton of energy. So we have all these things kind of working with us and we know we're good and I think that all just added up to us being a very

good football team. This was the around the time that national media dubs Indiana football chaos team. Yeah, 'cause it felt like every time you turn on national television, you know it's a 7 point game versus Ohio State or or it's you know, you're you're in a a back and forth with Michigan. You know that was the that was the the infamous overtime game against Michigan that year at home. Or it's the opposite it you're up 20 on Rutgers in the fourth quarter and then and then

everything collapses. Like, I mean, obviously it takes a lot of skill as we've seen these last several years of IU football to be in those games in the 1st place. What was it about the the way that the program ran that made it possible, I guess, to be in those games, but also sometimes kind of kept having the team come up just short in some of those games? Yeah, I mean, to me again, being

in those games won talent. We we actually had the talent, 'cause you can have the cool spread offense and all that shit. It doesn't work if you don't have talent, which we can kind of you kind of see to some degree in the following season. But we had legit talent, which is a testament to Wilson. The recruiting, they had a mindset of recruiting that I've also commented I think was kind of lost in the last couple of years of. We're not looking for like 5 stars.

We want elite three star guys that are kind of under the radar. If you can sprinkle in a couple of those five star dudes that you steal, great. But I can tell you in my time at IU, we had a couple Five Star guys. They were not what you thought they were. Wait, I'm just. I want to point and and get Scott to acknowledge this because I've been arguing this for years. Like the the surest sign that a a four or five star wasn't actually that. As if they ended up on Indiana's

roster. I mean, I mean it's it's a really good point like and and and yeah, it it's a very good point. Like there's usually a reason. Now if you can get a guy to transfer from a junior college, maybe he didn't have the grades or he got in trouble or something. That's different. You can go get, you can go out there and get a freak. And Camion Patrick, who I talked about, was one of those. He never got to really play, but he was one of those.

Jordan Howard was one of those. And so where where was I we? Were just talking. About the talent, So one that one. The talent 2. Wilson's ability and the whole and and the entire staff, By the way, Coach Frye was instrumental watching film. Even as a line coach. Coach John's, he was very good as well. He never really got to like in my opinion, be his full self because he was kind of under the the thumb of Wilson, because Wilson's such an offensive guy.

So there's always this kind of weird energy where it was like, whose offense is this, you know, which is not a good way to run an offense. But anyway, the other reason is because Wilson is a genius. And we would watch film and we knew exactly what the defense was going to do, and we knew exactly how we were going to beat it. And we would come up with wrinkles of offense that would truly make the difference in those games.

And when the whole offense is starting to watch film that way and you're sitting in the room and the quarterbacks especially, you sit in the room there with Wilson for hours and hours and hours on end. You start to see what he's seeing, and then you start to see it. And this happens in, well, we could talk about the junior season after, but the point is, is like when you actually have those minds around, it's a different thing.

It it just is. And so again, like those are kind of the the, the ingredients that add up or added up for us to kind of turning that tide. And when you ask about like some of these games that we lost, that we should have won, to me that comes back to this like this weird control and pressure that Wilson felt the need to apply to the team. And to me it always was like at the wrong time.

It was like, dude, you're you're, you should have had this tone and this vibe 2 weeks before the start of season for a week, not in the middle of season coming off of a good stretch. We're rolling into another team. We're super confident, like it just there was just this, in the same way that we went like this up and down. Well, who is our coach? He had his demeanor. Was that so is it? Is it? Is it a surprise that we're a reflection of the leader?

Of course it's not. So no different than you look at the Tom Allen team, not that they were anything perfect, but the whole team is like this lovey dovey, you know, like like Leo thing and again, not saying I love that, hate it, whatever. No, no, no opinion. I'm just saying like you are a reflection of the guy leading the charge. And to me, I always saw that up and down thing as sort of a

reflection of of the staff. One other question I have just from that that that particular season as a guy who after the 2015 season named my fantasy football team, the kick was good for seven, seven years. It's since been changed. So sorry, but the kick was good at the end of that game. I'm just always curious like, how how do you, if you're Wilson and that staff like, that kick was good? I mean, I know it's like they called it not good. How do you just like, what is that like?

And does Wilson, when do you just walk off? Because I'm Wilson just like, I'm like, screw it, I'm just staying here forever. Like I'm going to stay here until the Yankees start spring training. Like, screw you all, Like that kick was good. Like you have to fight. Like, I'm just, I'm curious how that all went down because I'm watching the game and it's like, all right, that's over. Like it it, it, it's mind boggling. It's such an IU thing to, like,

lose a bowl game that way. Yeah, it is. I mean, are you just asking kind of what was the vibe after that game? I guess so, yeah. Like, I mean, I'll say this, I I I was. I'm not the best person to ask because I was coming off of an injury and I just started to get healthy only a couple weeks before that. So to me, like we're all living in our own little movie. And for meanwhile, season was kind of. Over. And I'm like, maybe they'll put me in for this.

I was. I started playing some receiver in practice because I was like, why not? Like, I like, I started just like kind of messing around, not messing around. I was doing it seriously, but I just mean like trying. My thing was like put me on the field. I don't care in what capacity I want to help the team win And so, so going into that game, I was a little bit like I kind of knew my personal season was

over. There's a different vibe that the guys who are actually in those games and you know are going to be instrumental that they have. And so for me, my feeling was more just frustration in that game because all I'm thinking about on the sideline is put me in on 3rd and short, let me do an option read and like let me do my thing, I can help us win this. But the whole vibe of the team after that field goal was, I think you said it perfectly is like this is such an Indiana

thing to happen. That was a very good Duke team, very well coached. Obviously that was Coach. What was his name? David Cutcliffe still. Yeah, Cutcliffe, that was my my brother's coach, actually at Duke for a period of time. Recruited my little brother. Incredible guy. And it was just frustrating,

demoralizing. But also, like, I, I will say, just to be honest, like there is a little bit of a feeling around bowl games in general where it's like this is, it's not, it's not the Big 10 championship, you know, like it's a bowl game. So even though it like came, everyone's pissed. It's frustrated. It's like, OK, we're in New York City. This is really more of like,

it's more of an exhibition. It almost feels like to some degree, which I'm not saying is like the right vibe, but like, you can't really help it, like leading up to the whole thing. It's like fun media stuff, gifts. It's like, it's like, it's not really like, it's not really like it. It doesn't have the same feeling that a championship would, where it's like this is the the tip of the spear pinnacle of our season, right?

But again, that game was incredibly frustrating and I'm sure for the seniors, those dudes would have been just heartbroken. I don't know if the kick was good though. I don't know. I mean it it it just. Like it has been. Called into question of it by a couple of people who are on the field. It it looked good from the stands, I'll say that. But well, let's get to your last season in an IU uniform. That 2016 season, that was a weird year for a variety of reasons.

Obviously, you know, it felt like you kind of seemed and this was just observing from outside. It looked like you felt like you, you know, we're going to have a shot at the starting job. And then they announced they're bringing in a junior college transfer. And then the season kind of was very up and down, not as much so as the previous year. And then obviously Wilson gets fired kind of out of the blue at

the end of the season. I mean, what was that, that the whole experience, like all the way through that ending bowl game where you threw a touchdown pass? I mean what what was like? Give us the give us the

impressions of that. Well, I I'll say this, like just going into that season, I had to really kind of mentally change because I was at a point with these coaches where I was every, first of all, every single time I stepped foot in that building, I was full of anxiety because I knew I was going to get belittled about my weight and I was doing everything I could to gain weight. So it's not like I was fucking off and then getting punished for my weight.

It's like, dude, I'm squatting 400 lbs. I'm the number one squatter in the quarterback room. I weigh 165 lbs. I'm benching 295 at 165 lbs. I can't put any more on my frame. That's just how I was built. Sorry. Also, I'm playing incredible football in practice. I'm talking about the whole team sees it. The whole team knows it. I was playing that way my

sophomore year, even fall camp. Going into that sophomore season, they at the end of the at the each week in camp and at the end of camp, they're showing us all of our numbers, the quarterbacks, my numbers were almost identical to studies. I think he threw a couple more touchdowns.

I ran a couple more touchdowns. And so I I I just had to go through this like Monk kind of moment with myself and it it took me several months and I was kind of like diving into everything sort of self self help because I was so miserable because I could not stand being around Wilson and John's any longer. And I was like, I'm gonna transfer. I'm gonna go fucking play at Hawaii and I'm gonna go ball out and I'm gonna go be the king of

the Mountain West or something. You know, like like this is, these are the things I was thinking about. And so I had this moment where I go, OK, I'm not leaving. I am gonna be the best teammate that I can possibly be. I'm gonna be the biggest leader on the team, whether it means I'm on the field or not. And I'm committing to that. If I never touch this field my junior season, 'cause I knew already in my head it was gonna be my last. If I don't touch the field, I will not feel one drop of

resentment, anger, whatever. And I really got there like truly, and it's one thing to say it for me. I actually, it was in my heart. And so there's another moment that I have with him where we're basically in his office and he basically he just point, Blake says to me, he goes, I just can't picture my quarterback. I can't picture our team going out there every week with a quarterback that's 100 and 65770 lbs. He just explicitly says it.

I don't care how good you are. I don't care your stats. I don't care about anything. That just doesn't work in my mind's eye. And I shook his hand. I said, OK, totally understand. So that's when I kind of get to this, this new sort of mindset that I'm going to have where I'm like, be prepared to not touch the field, show out every day in practice, be the best teammate you can be. They bring in Richard Legault. First of all, Richard is a great

man, nicest guy. I had a great relationship with him, really like him a lot. But my feeling was that I was better than Richard. So that was just like as an athlete. But I love Richard and he is, he is very good quarterback and football player. I'm also just confident in any, any athlete that doesn't believe that you shouldn't, you probably shouldn't play. And so they bring in Richard, they start prepping him. I'm recovering from surgery. I'm getting big.

I I get, I get up to like 100 and 69170 lbs, which is the biggest that I ever got to. I couldn't even hold that weight in the football season and we go into that season and they name Richard the starter and I'm like, OK, like like this. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but whatever. And again, Richard was playing very well in fall ball. It's not like he did anything bad or wrong or anything. It's just to me, it was like this guy's.

I've played how many games here now I've been in the biggest moments. I've been in the worst moments. I was without a doubt the offensive captain of the team, along with maybe Mitchell Page, and I wasn't allowed to be the captain because they did not want the backup being the captain. Richard gets the starting spot and I go, cool, I'm going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to elevate to the role of an assistant coach. That's what I'm thinking in my head.

I'm going to coach Lego. I'm going to help him in every way I can. I'm going to defend him. I'm going to be in every offensive meeting room and I'm going to help. If I can help point out one little thing I see on film, great. So we get into that season. I don't remember how we start. I think we had a couple wins and then we start losing some games that we probably should have won.

We start losing some of those games and they start coming down on Lego. First of all, the offensive play calling was not good at that good that season. We were calling shit that we didn't. That wasn't our bread and butter. Like you have your foundational 40 plays that you run all fall camp. All of those disappeared the

whole first half of that season. So we call I call with Mitchell Page we call an offensive meeting and we basically say like look we need to turn this around and we bring the coaches in and we're like we need to start calling our shit. We're not calling our plays. We're not doing the stuff we did

all pre season. Like what you guys are putting in 50 new plays every week and so and and they start trying to come down on Richard and Wilson made some comment in front of the offense that like Richard was soft or something like that

which he was not at all. That was not his shortcoming and I just I get up and I defend him in front of the offense And so it was this weird situation where I was really the quarterback voice of the offense but Richard was the starter and with that being said I am balling out in practice every week. Balling out every week. We go to play Nebraska we had just lost I think to Wake Forest maybe there was a game in between.

You can jog my memory but we lose to Wake Forest should have won and I'm just thinking fucking put me in dude, please put me in. We go to Nebraska or Nebraska comes to us and that week we're running Tommy Arnold's offense where he's this running quarterback. There's a lot of rollouts, option reads, all this stuff. So they go, Xander, you're going to run the scout offense because we need a good look for Tommy Arnold. I am obliterating our defense with the scout offense.

I'm playing the best football I've ever played in my life on the scout team practice field as Tommy Arnold, and I'm running an offense that fits me and my skill set and literally I am like yelling in practice. I was very vocal in practice. I don't know if you guys were ever there, but I'm like making a statement like you, I I My mindset was you're gonna have to play me. Did we play Michigan State before that game? Yeah, the Michigan, Michigan State and Ohio State were both before that.

Let me, let me let me touch on the Michigan State game first and then I'll get back to Nebraska because this is the best moment in my football career. Honest to God, we're going into the Michigan State game. And again I, I, I have this sort of mindset of I'm going to, I'm going to just help whatever it is. And and by the way the coaching staff at this point, Wilson Johns, those guys, they really respected that and they knew it and they had verbalized that to me.

So we're sitting there watching film and all week I see the outside linebackers of Michigan State. What they started doing was they started playing very wide because they wanted to neutralize the bubble, which was kind of was kind of the bread and butter of most spread offenses at the time. It was kind of how we got the ball moving. So I noticed that the linebackers are playing really wide and they're jumping the

bubble. The second they see the running, the the receiver, the slot receiver go to the bubble. They're just jumping on it. And I'm seeing this all week. And I say to Johns, I go Johns, we need to run a bubble and just roll up the field. Just have them keep going because they're taking the wrong angle. They're attacking the bubble, Just roll right by him. I'm saying this all week. Johns is laughing at me, to be

honest. He's like, dude, like, OK, we'll put in your little play, Xander, like your little bubble, like and and like he would come into the meeting and be like, hey guys, Xander's little bubble. Like, are we going to do it this week? Like like kind of making jokes and shit. I get in front of Wilson in one of our full offensive meetings where it's just the coaches and I'm in the room and Richard's in the room.

And I point this out to Wilson and he's like, Yup, draw that up. So we get into the game against Michigan State. I can't remember if it's third down. I think it's third down and we need to get a score or we're we're scoring to get ahead. I don't remember the exact situation and I'm standing there. I'm next to Wilson and I'm on the sideline and I'm waiting to see what his call is and and I'm thinking the whole game, dude, this is there. It's there. I'm seeing them jump our

bubbles. Wilson's on the headset and he goes, fuck it, call Xander's bubble play and and I'm like, I'm just standing there like trying to look confident in this play. But I'm like now it's going to you know, like the chickens are coming home to roost here like better fucking work or I'm going back to the to the doghouse. They call the play. I think it's Mitchell Page runs the bubble goes down the sideline. Richard hits him perfect. We score a touchdown.

That is the number one better than the 80 yard run against Ohio State. It's the best moment of my college football career because for me it was. It was the change in mindset I had to get for myself coming into actuality and helping the team win a game that was huge for the program. Well, against Michigan State, you should now have a picture with the cigar in the spittoon. I know, yeah, exactly. And so that that moment was like the best moment of my football career.

And and actually to Wilson's credit, he said in the press conference, he goes, that was Xander's play and I was like, hell yeah, dude, that was awesome, 'cause that's not, that's not like him to do. But again there was a bit of a shift with our relationship at that point and so so anyway, back to Nebraska. They're coming home. This moment had just happened with Michigan State and I'm playing lights out in practice. So Wilson one day he he's

walking down the field. He's in a good mood today. Great. He goes, he goes, Xander, go to running back, run a swing, Richard, snap the ball, throw Xander the ball, Xander, catch it, throw it, Xander, go run a little flat, go here, hand it off to Xander. He starts just coming up with this whole thing in his head, this whole like, offensive package, 'cause they had just realized after watching me for a week, absolutely demoralize our ones. He goes, we have to put him on

the field. Have to We're gonna fucking lose if we don't. So Nebraska week, we don't even unveil that stuff. We I just go do my option read thing and the moment I get in the game everything changes. The whole crowd goes crazy, the energy of the offense. All of a sudden we start moving the ball. I throw a deep post to Cami on Patrick and just the vibe, the energy shifts, They pull me out of the game. We go back to going to sleep and we end up losing that game.

But they got a taste and they're like, OK, this changes the tempo, this switches up the vibe, this like this, this can help us win. And Wilson was very good at noticing those things. So the next week he pulls in the tee and we start this this weird package for him and I and talking about incredible athletes. That dude is 280 lbs, can run like a running back, is light on his feet, like a point guard, can catch and hand off a ball better than 95% of quarterbacks and can throw the ball.

He is an absolute freak. The fact that the next staff could not find a way to use him is embarrassing. And so we do this package. We play Maryland. I think that first game we, I think we set a record for like most rushing yards in a Big 10 game or in an IU game in the Big 10. Or set something, some significant record. And the whole team goes off and we smash the shit out of Maryland like we should.

And we should have done the same thing to Wake Forest and we probably should have had a seven or eight win season. And that package goes on to get used. We get to Utah or or we get to the Purdue game, Everyone already kind of. We're hearing some stuff from the administration. Wilson's out. It's kind of this. You kind of can tell in his temperament, he's looking at this like his funeral.

It's like the last hurrah all of a sudden he's like lovey dovey and like crying and shit in all of our meetings and you know, which was honestly nice to see, but. And all of a sudden in that game, it's almost like Wilson has some awakening with me and he's like, this is my guy. I love Xander. He's been fighting his ass off for three years and all I've ever done is shit on him.

And he has this whole, like, vibe shift towards me, which was honestly a beautiful thing and a great way to cap the season. But again, everything I had just been through with this dude, like to some degree you just, I I forgive. But like, you don't. It's hard to forget some of those memories. I mean, it's hard for my parents to forget some of those memories, you know?

And so so anyway, we have this Purdue game I play a lot of the snaps, have some very big moments, some huge first downs, some I, I, I go off do my thing, I pull the ball on the last play I was not supposed to to score. The touchdown Wilson grabs me and I'm thinking I'm about to get motherfucked and he goes great fucking play. And I'm like, I'm like, fuck yeah dude, you're two years too late. But this should have been your mindset. Like this is what I do, you know, this is what I do.

I do this in practice. And if you think that I do some some wild shit in the games that you guys have seen, you, you haven't even seen me in practice. When I'm when I'm like when I'm actually in my element and I'm fully comfortable and in my flow, dude, I would run around like a madman and make crazy wild plays. And so you know, we have this moment. And by the way, again, me and Richard have this awesome relationship that whole season, even with me getting subbed in.

Richard wanted that to happen because he wanted some pressure off of him and he knew that it would help us win. And he was a great dude and we loved each other and we had a great relationship as a one and two shifting quarterback room. It was awesome. Awesome. All I could have asked for. Wilson gets fired. I'm like, dude, I'm not first of all. So I would take some hits in practice that I wasn't.

I shouldn't have taken and I start getting to a point where I start and everyone knows I wouldn't really shy away from hits. I wasn't really the type to step out of bounds and I start taking some hits where I'm like, I don't feel great, like I just don't feel right. I'm not saying I'm walking around like not knowing where I am or anything like that, but I just feel a little nauseous and that's not good. And it would happen on hits that

were not that big. And so I'm like, I'm not going to the NFL, Wilson's getting fired. I'm not going to stand around next season and get smoked all year. This is just not smart. And so that's kind of what leads to me, that game, saying I'm done and Wilson's out. And you know what I did? I checked all my boxes, dude. Like I did everything I wanted to do or I could do at that point. And so we go into the Utah game. Tom Allen's the head coach. Let me first say I love Tom Allen.

He's a great man. Great guy. I never had some like, super close relationship with him. I I never had any reason to. If anything, I was the guy running around fucking with his defense all year in practice and like taught me a bunch of shit and starting fights and you know, whatever. And so but. And I, and again Tom is also another guy. Midwest dude. Very conservative. You know, I I'm just not really their kind of guy.

And so we go into this bowl game and we start practicing and our our packages that got us to a bowl game where I'm in there and T's in there and they're gone and I'm like, oh, OK, so we're going to go fucking lose this game. Like like, what are you guys doing? This is what got us here. Like, this is just stupid. I'm still balling out in practice. I'm not verbalizing this or being negative or anything like that, but I'm like, this is seems foolish.

What are we doing here? We go out to that Utah game, we start warming up. I'm. I feel the most confident I've ever felt. I know this is the last time I'm ever going to play real football again in my life and we start the game. I'm not getting in the game. I'm pretty frustrated. We're playing well. Hanging there with Utah, by the way, the Utah quarterback, I'm blanking out his name, Troy something. He was an LA City Player of the year. I was an LA City Player of the

year. I used to watch this dude when I was a freshman, sophomore and look up to him and I was like, I'm going to be him. So this was like, I wanted to play against this guy. Finally, we're not getting any movement. They put me in on an option read. The moment they put me in the game, Utah shifts to cover one man free. They're playing one high safety. They are playing low man coverage on our receivers and they're loading the box. We know what they're going to do.

OK, option read, option read. We go deep. I throw a touchdown, do the McGregor walk, we go in for halftime and I'm thinking, OK, put me back in, let's keep going. They don't say anything. No. Hey, Xander, this is what we're going to do. No, nothing. I never touched the field again after that game. I am now. I'm mad. I'm like dude, everything I did this season, the way I contributed, the guys who played deserve to win that game and we

could have won that game. So I put on Twitter, you know, offensive play calling cost us the game and it goes viral and everyone starts talking and they make me delete it. And the only reason I delete it is because Fred Glass asked me to delete it And I loved Fred and he was amazing to me and he was an incredible AD, great man. That's the only reason I did.

But then I see in the interviews after Coach, I think it was Coach Allen. It might have been John's, but I think it was Allen. He goes, someone asked why didn't you keep playing Vander like 3 plays in scores, a touchdown. What's going on? Well, they played cover one. They loaded the box, and so it neutralized his run game or something like that.

Wait, wait, wait. You're telling me that when you put Xander in the game, you know exactly what the defense is going to do. They're going to play cover one man free and man up all your receivers throw the ball. What? What more can you ask for than knowing exactly what the defense is going to do? Again, it's Allen's first game as a head coach. We're in a transition. Like, I forgive him. I'm not mad. I don't like whatever I I text. I used to text him after games and stuff like that.

So it it but for me, it was incredibly frustrating and I would have just preferred to win that game. But you know it is what it is and that's that's kind of the story of my career. It's like these really weird highs and lows and kind of that folklore thing is what it was.

And I'm very grateful that's what it was, because most guys never get on the field so. Obviously after you leave IU, they have a couple of seasons that kind of, you know, didn't quite get to the level that they needed to five and seven, five

and seven. And they have those two awesome years in 2019 and then 2020. And then the bottom falls out the last three seasons, from your perspective as an alum, as someone who's clearly kept tabs on the program and watched from afar, what happened This, this, this. I mean, in 2020, I don't think anybody was predicting that we would be talking about a new coach today. Yeah, I mean, well, let let me just say this. Like, yes, I keep tabs and those first couple seasons I watched a

lot. But I'm, I'm actually not like a football geek. Like, I don't like track stats and like watch every game and like, park my ass on the couch all day on Saturday and Sunday. Like, to be just honest, that's never been me. I'm a player and so I'm not the best voice. I saw coach Allen take a very opposite approach to Wilson with Elio love each other, which I loved. And I'm like, dude, that's we

needed an element of that. I think, you know, I I don't know exactly what happened at the the five and seven years. I look at those years and I go, OK, like we didn't have that much talent. You're kind of bringing in new guys. You've got the old Wilson team and kind of the the lesser end of the Wilson era. To be totally honest, even my junior year, we were not the team we were my sophomore year, like not even close. And so you're kind of transitioning out of that.

And then you have the those seasons with Michael Phoenix. And I saw those years and I was like, dude, they've got some guys and this guy Phoenix. And I would, I would sit with some friends and they'd watch him and they'd be like, he's not that good. He kind of throws the ball up, whatever. And I'm like, dude, this guy's NFL caliber. You don't know what you're talking about. So I don't know what happened in

losing him. I understand the injury part and being like, OK, this guy gets injured every year. We have to just like, put our eggs in a different basket, totally get that. I wasn't part of the program and I wasn't there those years. But to me, other than the fact of like having Michael Phoenix and what was the receiver #3, I'm blanking. Oh yeah. Fry mobile. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My I only had half my coffee this morning. It's getting old, man.

It's just that's part of that's part of being out of college and. Getting older. You know what? I I I feel like I graduated 2 years ago. Every year it's the weirdest thing ever. But then I think about it and I'm like, wait, there's been like 7 football seasons since,

so it's weird. But But anyway, other than maybe that year I just looked at the team from the lens of a like the television and I just didn't see the kind of talent, the kind of size the kind of freaks that that 2015 Sud Sudi era a little bit my era had and the size didn't look like it was quite as there. I mean in 2015 when we went out against Ohio State, I'm not kidding you, we were bigger than

them. Like when we stepped on the field there's always that moment where you're like you have that like size up moment in the 1st 20 minutes of warm up where you're like how fucking big is that guy? I'm lined up against the you know what I mean And every game that year we would come out there and be like we're going to fucking smash these guys. We've got Jordan Howard. Jason Spriggs is bigger than any of their lineman. We, Mark Hill, ran a tight strength program.

We were fit, dude. We were like, I felt like a Navy SEAL. I'm not kidding you. Like I could say no, warm up. I'm going to go run a marathon right now. I'm going to be fine. Like, we were killers. Our workouts were brutal and we were strong as shit and we did heavy compound lifts. None of this bullshit like bands and whatever. That stuff's good, but like, we were strong, explosive and big and we had talent. And I just didn't see nearly as

much of that in the Allen era. And I think that the draft picks kind of speak to that. I, I, and maybe I haven't been tracking, but I just don't see many of those guys that have carried off carried on into the NFLI would actually bet that there's more guys in the NFL right now today from the Wilson era than the Allen era. To me that that's just what I saw where I'm like there, there just doesn't really look like there's many NFL guys on the field and this is the Indiana

problem of old. You have to have four of those guys on every team. Go ahead. Sorry. I was just gonna say, you know you talked about the recruiting side. I'm just curious on the the post and you know somebody who played, I don't want to say folklore, but like you you had an oversized role there at the end of the Wilson era. How much connection do you have with with the program with IU?

Like are you called back to be like hey, we want we want you to come back and you know honor this, Honor that. Like, I'm just how much that happens. I've had almost none. When I when the Allen team got hired, I I remember walking up into the like the administration level of the stadium where all the coaches in the administration are. And I go to walk into the film room like gonna DAP up some of the coaches and say what's up to

Tom and whatever. And the new running back coach, I think he played running back at Michigan or something like that. He closes the door on me and I'm like, bitch, do you know who I am? Really been here for a week and I'm like and I but it. But it was this immediate realization of, dude, it's next man up. This is college football. They don't give a shit about you anymore. They're on to the next era. These guys all have kids.

They've got salaries. Jeremy Gray reached out to me because of all this recent Twitter stuff and he he was like, dude, like, let's get involved. Like, you know, send me an e-mail. Let's talk. I would love to do that. Oh, hey man, we're we're coming to LA. This, I mean, I use playing at, you know at UCLA this year. You're in that area. Like you, you should be hosting a pregame. I would love to. I would love to speak to the team. I would love to do something what, in whatever capacity I

can. I would love to help and be involved. I'd love to meet the new coach. And you know, I mean even something funny like the uniforms. Like they really should have someone part of that conversation that is not 70 years old and in a suit like it. It should like get somebody who understands the ethos of Indiana, what this should represent, how we should look with the right perspective on it

to be part of the conversation. I'm not saying hand me the keys, but I would love to be part of that. I'd love to be part of again. Anything that they go, hey Xander, you can come and help with this. Cool. I'll do it. So hopefully somebody watches this and and you know I can I can help in some way. Well, let's wrap.

Let's wrap up. With this because we've gone a little over time, but I'm curious like from your and obviously not being a football geek as you said, but caring about the brand of IU football and you started this whole thing off by talking about how much of A non entity Indiana was nationally. Like what do you see Indiana as needing to do now that they have a new coach, they have some

buzz. It feels like not just in terms of of the hire but there's nil money that's that's increased significantly over the last month. What would your suggestions be, knowing what you know about marketing and what makes football programs interesting and intriguing to high school prospects and recruits? The type of freaks that you need to to get in and really play at

a top level? Like, what can Indiana do to try to change their their fortunes here, 'cause it's clearly that they've gone off track here the last few years with that. Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, when it comes to the hire, I think again, I don't know a ton about Cignetti and he, from what I just have read quickly in his track record, he seems to be a winner, he seems to be legit, he seems to be awesome. So I think ultimately great hire.

My first perspective when Tom was leaving and we were knowing that we're going to need a head coach was go get a name brand, go get a household name. I don't care if it costs $25 million to get Urban Meyer, go do it. The whole landscape of college football is shifting. This is now a different world we're in. This is professional football. Everyone's getting paid. If you don't pay, you're not going to play.

And so to me, if I was sitting here with the keys to the car and I was the ADI, that's what I probably would have done. I would have made some disgusting offer to make someone the most highest paid college football coach ever. And then I would have said we're going to spend more on more money on this football program than ever.

Like because again, it is a completely different environment than it was when I played and I watched my little brother go through this at Duke. It's just different. If you don't spend, you're just gonna be irrelevant. Why? If you're sitting on this multi billion dollar university, which is essentially a corporation, so you're a corporation with billions of dollars, what is the difference between 10 million and 20 million?

Like, these are the kinds of things where until Indiana just decides we are gonna dump money into this until it works. Like just do it. If if you get it to work, if you can have an era of a coach who gets this to become a nine when you don't have to become Ohio State. But if you can become Nebraska, if you can become Wisconsin, if you can become, you know, look at Washington State football. When Mike Leach came, it kind of changed everything like that.

You're going to get that money back. It's going to take time. But it's also just like, you know, it's hard because I I don't know the inner workings of how money flows within the university and all the all of these things. Like there's a lot that I don't understand about this and I'm sure it's very complex. But to me, at the end of the day, someone needs to create a vision, a strategy. There has to be money behind it and somebody has to execute it and stick to it.

Like, Iowa clearly has a strategy. How is it that Iowa, year after year, takes three star guys? They win nine games every year. They compete for Big 10 championships. Their stadium's not as nice. Their university sucks compared to IU. Like, how is it that they keep doing it? How is it that they're retaining head coaches for 20 years? There's someone in that administration with a plan and a strategy and they go, this is what we're going to do.

This is going to be our brand. This is going to be our niche. We're going to stick to it and we're going to sell everybody in the organization on that vision. And I don't know if Indiana has that or doesn't. I again, I'm not part of the administration and I I haven't been around in a long time. But hiring a coach isn't enough. Getting a few stars isn't enough. You need to have a strategy of vision, realistic expectations and tangible goals.

You know during the Wilson era, we knew our goal was like, let's get some Bulls always beat Purdue and if we can go sneak up on an Ohio State, on a Michigan on a Michigan State. Being an underdog is is a great thing when we go step on the field with Ohio State until they stopped doing this. But initially their foot was just slightly off the gas pedal. Like if we were in war. Do you know what you would pay to have your enemy take you for granted?

So these are things that like, I don't know, are being positioned and sold the right way. I'm not saying they aren't, but if I was in charge that's this is the kind of perspective that I would have and these are the things that I would try to do. So ideally somebody is doing that. I'm sure that they are. I mean these these people are very, very smart. They've been in this business a long time. But I think Kurt could could do

awesome and be incredible. They need to have a plan for retention and be ready to keep this guy if he is that guy you know and they need to have a plan to really start dumping money and get ahead of this MIL stuff. Who can we bring in as a as a consultant, whether it's full time staff where all they do is understand the nil landscape. Go hire a huge famous sports agent from back in the day and say you're gonna run the nil division and you're gonna make

sure all these dudes are paid. Figure out what we need to pay guys. What we need, what packages we need to put together. Like, you know, yeah, that's that's that's that's my. Perspective. No, I think that's I I think that's good and I I I think it's good. Perspective, I think we're both kind of in agreement as you. Basically stated, I mean this, this is there's the football aspects to this, but this is an entire business wrapping around it.

And whether it's nil or whether it's marketing or just trying to make the program not just relevant to be but be able to compete against these other brands that are schools that are doing the things that you're outlining has always been the big challenge with IU football. And we know we've seen a few moments in the history of the program where it has worked. You know, it worked a bit in the in the late 80s and early 90s.

That was a good period. It worked a little bit there briefly with Wilson and briefly with Allen. But it always seems to recede that there's always a regression and that's that's the big hope, I think with IU. And it's where your idea of there, you know, there's got to be a long term plan from the university comes in. Because at this point, yeah, I was reading Rick Bozich who writes for the Louisville Courier Journal and and he brought up a great point. Like everybody's a football

school now. You you, you can't, you can't say, oh, Indiana's a basketball school. You look at the other basketball schools that are out there and they've all had to figure out a way to be competitive in football consistently. And and Indiana, it feels like maybe turning the corner on that, but they don't really have a choice at this point. Yeah, and and Louisville is actually a great example of that. Like what they've done with their football program.

Again, they're not the best team in the country. You don't have to compete for national championships. You just can't be the butt of every college football joke. You can't be the losing his program in history. Yeah, yeah, that. That hurts your brand. That hurts your university. So let's make the goal to get this to a place where we have a good reputation, which we did. Again, to your point, during some of these eras and I think during the Wilson era, we did do that.

But let's let's just get back to that. Let's stop giving up the bucket. Let's consistently hit bowl games. That's a standard. That's a bottom line. It's not a a crowning achievement. It's just the standard. We win six games. If you have to schedule your way to six wins, then fucking schedule your way to six wins.

But we're going to get six wins. Like start, you know just start with some of these fundamental things and then those things things compound and over 3451020 years you start getting somewhere. So you know it's going to it's going to take. There's a lot of ingredients to make a successful college football program. It's it is a very challenging endeavor. Well, Xander, we really appreciate you taking the time to to share your memories and your perspectives on things.

And we're, we're serious. We're both coming out for that game against UCLA in the Rose Bowl in September. So let's get something set up. You know we. We'll talk offline, but let's do a let's do a meet up before that UCLA game. I would love to do something. Let's do it. Thank you. Grab me on, guys. Appreciate it. Just making the Rose Bowl there you going? All right, Xander Diamont, former IU quarterback and his, as I said, folk legend of IU football, joining us here on the

show. Thanks again. Thanks guys. All right. My thanks again to Xander Diamont for joining us on the show, A tremendous discussion. We really enjoyed his candor and all the interesting things he had to say. And we hope that we see Xander around IU Athletics and and the program more moving forward. He's certainly on Twitter. You can go check him out on Twitter of course, and you'll probably see him at some other items as well here soon.

So our thanks to Xander and our thanks to you folks for listening in. We'll be back later on in the week. Obviously IU men's basketball, IU women's basketball, both in action and probably still some stuff coming up. As far as IU football's concerned, they continue to make some waves in the transfer portal and you know we're already kind of we've got the the second signing period coming up. We got spring practice not too far down on the horizon.

So a lot to look forward to, a bright future hopefully for IU football moving forward. We'll go ahead and wrap things up now for Scott. I'm Galen, thanks for joining us here on Crimson Cast. Be sure to subscribe. Be sure to get on the sub stack and we'll look forward to talking with you soon. Bring back the Bison, I think I'm supposed to say that here. And also we'll catch you folks on the flip side. Thanks again for listening. So long, everybody.