All right. Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Galen Clavio, Scott Caulfield from Crimson cast here today, part of the back home network. We're scheduled to start here in a couple of minutes, but we wanted to go ahead and get the live stream up and running. So the people had a chance to tune in for the beginning and I
believe we are rolling now. So as we go along here, we are doing an emergency podcast to talk about the news of the death of former Indiana head basketball coach Bob Knight, who passed away, we believe today at the age of 83. For those who know Coach Knight's situation, he'd been battling some pretty severe maladies here over the course of
of the last couple of years. And while the news is not shocking, it's it's certainly shocking from the standpoint that it's the passing of an absolute icon. And you know I think of any listing of the most well known people in the history that of Indiana University or connection with Indiana University probably in the top three or four and maybe the most well known person ever associated with the university at least on a national scale.
Scott, you know a little bit about the the circumstances of of Coach Knight's passing. We we don't know most of the details obviously, and that's not really why we're doing the show. We wanted to try to talk through what people are feeling and experiencing right now, as this was someone that you and I took a class from late in his time in Indiana. It's someone that is fans. We grew up watching not just his teams but him.
And for a lot of the IU fan base, this was the prism through which Indiana basketball was viewed. Indiana basketball certainly has a tremendously long and storied history, but for our generation, you know, both of both Scott and
I are in our 40s. For the generation that came before us, certainly Bob Knight was synonymous with Indiana University, was synonymous with the type of basketball that people still associate with the university and certainly brought some of the most successful and high profile moments to Indiana University of anybody in the sports realm. And this is a relationship between Knight and Indiana fans that certainly had its ups and downs over the last 20 or so
years. Then we'll talk about that a little bit as well. But Knight and I, you being able to reconcile towards the tail end of things. You know, I think one of the big concerns people always had was, you know what if Coach Knight had passed before all of that
ever occurred. The fact that Knight was fully back within the IU family, was at practices regularly, had been fully embraced by Coach Mike Woodson and his staff and the players was, you know, really kind of a it was a happy ending to a story that had certainly not looked like it was headed towards a happy ending over the course of time. Your thoughts? I guess first and foremost, this news only broke about an hour and a half ago.
I think we're both kind of still digesting it to some degree, but what were your initial thoughts when you heard the news? Yeah, I mean I just one thing to say with what you were talking about is I would even take a step back and take the university part out of it and one of the most well known people just in Indiana. You know what, we'll talk about a little more. You know, I'm, I'm a year older than you. You know, different generation.
No. But I, you know, growing up, we, I moved from New York to Bloomington in 1985. And so I grew up in Bloomington in the epicenter of, you know, the height of Bob Knight. And you know, when we would travel around to different parts of the country, we'd even travel to Europe. You know, you would say Indiana, where are you from? I'm from Indiana would be like, oh, Bob Knight. And like literally, I heard that
multiple times. So, you know, you are right about Indiana University, but it's also just Indiana for, you know, I've written down some stories here, You know, just just for Indiana. He was such a large figure. And I think everybody, you know, probably under 30 or 35, it's. I don't want to sound like the old guy, but it's just you have no idea how big of a figure he was.
Not just the university in the state, just he was synonymous with Indiana. You know, when you ask my first thoughts, I was thinking of that on the drive. I was just actually in Bloomington today driving home. You know, you and I have been friends for for years and don't want to. Not trying to get too personal here, but it is, you know, kind of a different podcast, you
know? Honestly the first thought was you know we both lost parents and my first thought went to Pat Knight. You know there was the the video that just came out with the IU media department of Pat Knight kind of telling some Bob Knight stories. So it's it's fresh on my mind but you know we'll we'll definitely talk about Bob Knight the the majority of this but for. Just to be totally honest, like, you know, losing a parent is unmooring. It can be a shock. And so, you know, my heart goes
out to the entire family. But I just think of, you know, Pat Knight was a little bit older than me. I remember going to see him in games. You know, we remember seeing him play. And so just, you know, I know everyone's heart goes out. I just wanted to say that that, you know having been there, I I just think of Pat that was, you know that was my that honestly was my first thought. Yeah it's it's certainly very sad and and obviously his son Tim as well who is a bit older.
I mean it it's no, no absolutely, absolutely. You know, it's interesting because it's it's hard to really reconcile the the position that Bob Knight occupied in the culture of the state of Indiana, as you mentioned of Indiana University basketball. And and really just the the way in which Knight carried himself and the kind of connection between his teams and the fans that he was essentially the arbiter of. He was, he was the person that helped to channel that. And night.
I talked about night in my in the class that I teach every semester and it's part of a a larger history of Indiana basketball. And I always say, you know, and and this is not meant to offend anybody, but you know, Indiana basketball and the and the place that Indiana basketball holds in the hearts and minds of so many people that grew up in Indiana, went to Indiana University. It's almost like a religion in a
lot of ways. And I and I don't mean that from a a worship perspective, but I mean that from a cultural perspective. It is. It's like you're part of a secular church. And Bob Knight was essentially almost a papal figure within that church. He was the leader of not just a basketball program, but he was essentially what a lot of people looked up to in terms of, you know, this is part of your childhood, this is part of your adulthood.
This is part of what you are wrapped up in emotionally and mentally and intellectually and and the amount of time and effort people have gone to over the course of time, over especially over the last 40-50 years. They're going to Indiana Basketball games, organizing their entire vacation, you know, or or their work schedule or their recreational schedule around when Indiana basketball games were on. I mean that's going on to some
degree for a long time. But from the time that Knight took over as head coach, really through the time that he was fired as head coach, that 29 year period, Indiana basketball was such a huge part of so many people's lives and night was the Seminole figure in all of that. He was the constant and you know, even no longer at Indiana. He cast such a tremendous shadow over the basketball program and never really left the minds and thoughts of the people who followed IU basketball.
And you know, I think that's a fascinating spot to be in as a a public figure, as somebody who coaches a basketball program. And and I don't know that there would ever have been quite the same level of connection between a fan base and a basketball coach the way that there was between Bob Knight and Indiana.
And and it's very similar to you know, how you you'll read about, you know, Bear Bryant and and the Alabama fan base or you know, there's other coaches that you could mention that fall into that category. But Knight was Indiana's coach, and and he was as much the state of Indiana's coach as he was
Indiana University's coach. And it's it's been, you know, really fascinating as someone who grew up in a household where literally, like everything revolved around Indiana basketball from October until March. You know, my fandom came through my father, and my father wasn't an Indiana native. He moved to Bloomington in 1964. You know he started going to Indiana games at the new field
house. You know his first favorite player was Vern Payne who you know that was that was well before IU hired Bob Knight. But Knight inspired fervor and a passion in so many IU fans that what you know you almost have to have grown up around people like that or have grown up in a household where somebody felt that way to really understand
what it was like. And it it's it's almost impossible to put into words Scott and and I'm, you know a lot of these emotions and a lot of these feelings I'm kind of numb right now because a lot of my my younger days and the relationship I had with my own dad and the way that that that
interacted with IU basketball. You know, we're all tied in with Bob Knight and and with with Bob Knight's particular way, not just of coaching, but the way that he inspired people to believe every time Indiana took the floor that they were going to find a way to win. And the immense amount of pride and passion that that helped to generate in a state that frankly didn't have a whole lot else going forward.
It felt like for large stretches of that time period, I mean, Indiana basketball under Bob Knight was essentially the professional sport of the state of Indiana. It was that or Notre Dame football. You know, it wasn't the Colts who weren't even here until halfway through Knight's tenure. Essentially, it wasn't the Pacers, who were very much a peripheral team until very late in night's tenure. It was it was night and it was IU basketball, and it wasn't just night coaching, but it was
Knight's presence. It was his words. It was the way that he described the world that people liked and wanted to gravitate towards. It was a world of order. It was a world of discipline. And it was ironic because many of those things were not actually how Knight himself conducted himself. And I think being an IU fan during that period, you kind of got used to that dichotomy.
And it didn't bother you nearly as much as it bothered or seemed to bother people who weren't IU fans or people who were from outside the state. Which I think may be why it's so hard to describe exactly the the mix of emotions with this news, because it's been it's been a long time since that was the way that it was. But it's still fascinating.
Like how how real that feeling is, and how much Bob Knight represented a particular period of time within not just Indiana University history, but really the history of basketball within the state. He was such a larger than life figure and you met you you said something about like how he was
ours. You know that that he was our Bear Bryant but it. It it during that time, it felt like the epicenter of college basketball was around Bob Knight and and not, you know, like you said, it was so much more to him than just being a great coach. So I want to dig into that. He almost doesn't get enough credit for his grade of a coach as he was. But you know, it wasn't just that. It was there was all of, I don't want to say antics, but it was just his persona.
But what was also so unique about it was he was beloved by everybody in college basketball. You know, John Thompson would always, like, love Bob Knight. And you know, they even that the refs would glowingly tell Bob Knight stories and other coaches would tell Knight stories. And you know, you know, my my most interesting status, like the winningest coach in the Big 10 in the 80s is Lou Henson, not Knight, not Jean Cady.
But it's like, but Knight. Knight had the light was the orbit that the Big 10 revolved around. And up until, you know, the mid 90s, it felt like he was the orbit that college basketball revolved around. And every coach he went against, you know, loved him and was hug.
It just, it felt like he was just, it was and it was so cool because he was ours and it felt like everything revolved around us. And then you know, you know Hoosiers comes out and it doesn't have to do with night, but it's like they're they're doing things that, you know, there's definitely a night vibe in Hoosiers.
Not that Blue Chips is even close to the same, but it's like Nick Nolte. Well, they going, they went and studied Bob Knight. Bob Knight, It's like, I wonder who Emmett Scott or whoever the Booster was. We studied but different story for a different pod. But you know, but even The thing is like, while this is sad, you know it is. And it's like there is also a humor part. Like I sit down with my wife for
really quick dinner. My wife, who, you know, we were at the game, the Ted Valentine game together was one of our first, you know, 4th or 5th dates we went to the Ted Valentine game, which we can talk about. That was a wild experience. So. So you know, and one of my favorite April Fool's jokes with my wife for a couple years was, you know, oh they they fired Bob Knight and then it it became a reality. But. You know, she even said, you know, well, are they going to bury him upside down?
Because if you don't know and not being flipped like one of his favorite speeches, which if you haven't seen it, you will see it, I'm sure. And I think it was actually Pat Knight, Senior Day was, you know, when, when they when my time on it was the previous. It was the previous year actually. Yeah. You know, when my time on earth is done and you know my critics, my activities here are past. I want they vary me upside down and my. Critics kiss my ass.
It's like they're going to play that now, but it's like there's. There's humor with Knight 2 where anyway, just it is I'm with you. It's so conflicted and it does bring me back to it. It's very visceral, that moment of going to. I started going to games with my dad, and my dad was not a native Hoosier. He grew up in, you know, California, and then we were in New York and we come here, but like you as a young. Young boy in Bloomington, it's like, that's the ideal.
And like that's how you play and you heard stories about the Bob Knight basketball camp and it was like with a little bit of terror, with a little bit of fun.
But it's like it was the way and like that's how you build men it. It's yeah, there's a lot, a lot of a lot of emotions it is no. And I mean we're getting some great comments from the folks that are joining us here live and we really appreciate it. I mean that that that note there from from Bryant Onsoni, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of boys and girls growing up in Indiana in the 70s and 80s. I mean, it was a similar kind of thing.
It wasn't everybody, you know. And I think what's important to remember is that, you know, IU basketball wasn't a monoculture. There were people when we were in school and before that who didn't like Bob Knight who felt like he the game had passed him by or that he was you know not right for Indiana.
And and look I mean there were a lot of things that you know we every every tribute you're going to read about Bob Knight is going to say he was a flawed man you know but he was a genius and that that's most geniuses is that they are they are generally very flawed people in one way or another. I think what made Knight so fascinating as a as a person was he was such an intelligent person. He was he was such a a well read individual.
I mean you any anything any any profile you watched of night any profile you read of Bob Knight. It talks so in depth about how you know how how familiar he is with these different aspects of literature and history. And he was he was such a huge you know student of the Civil War and of World War 2.
And Patton Patton, you know we know you and I. The class that we took with Knight in the I guess it would have been the fall of 99 you know he's he he only really taught three of the lectures it is an 8 week class. Norm Ellenberger, we. Took a class with Norm Ellenberger. Yes, Bob Knight made some.
Taught by Bob. Bob Made some guest appearances, but they were great, you know, because you'd walk in and I mean it was like, you know you're you're a 1920 year old kid, you're sitting in a a desk in the IU press room and Bob Knight comes strolling in, you know, and he told everybody, you know, go by the Art of War, by Sun Tzu, which is not what you weren't getting that in most of your other classes on campus at that point, at least not the ones that we were taking majors
for. But he was he was an intellectual who had decided to devote his life to understanding and teaching the game of basketball. He was insanely successful. I was trying to describe this to
my my class the other day. I mean, this is a guy who was so successful that in his first year he took a team that hadn't been to a post season in five years to the NIT, and then in his second year he won a Big Ten title and went to the Final Four. In his third year, he won a Co championship in the Big 10, didn't go to the NCAA, but instead went to a different tournament that they created and won that third year, went undefeated in the regular
season, won a Big Ten title and lost in the regional final to Kentucky. And in his fourth year went undefeated, won a Big Ten title and won the national championship. I mean four Big 10 titles in his first five seasons and playing a style that would become one of the primary dominant ways of playing basketball at the college level for the next 15 years, and doing so with a talented team. But not the type of talent that you normally won that level of games with.
And you know so much of what he did was based around relatively simple principles that were executed Florida State because he was so good at preparing his teams to do what they needed to do on a night in, night out basis And that kind of a start to a career sometimes that's your pinnacle. And we see so many coaches they they hit that and they drift off instead. You know Knight wins another title five years later. He wins another title six years
after that. He makes another final 4-5 years after that. He he won so many games, he won what, 73% of the games that he coached at IU, which is bizarre like how how like hard that is to do. And you know, it's funny like you and I, obviously we're at IU at the tail end of his time and people were complaining about how mediocre IU was. And then you look back and it's like with imperfect teams and he was certainly as much to blame for that as anybody in terms of the recruiting.
At the time, he was regularly getting single digit seeds and winning 20 games in the regular season. It's like that was the low point for the most part. It's like that's that, you know, the the basketball side of things. It was such an era of success. You mentioned IU being the epicenter of basketball.
And I and I tell people you know younger students you know now that I I work with it's like how people think today of North Carolina or maybe North Carolina is a bad example But if you know Duke Kentucky Kansas like that echelon of teams that was what Indiana was from basically 1972 to 1993 a 20 year period of time where Indiana was the the pre eminent program in college basketball and it was it was Bob Knight. I mean that was those were heights that Indiana hadn't hit
in 15 years prior. You know, Knight took over a program that was was lost, you know, had had you know losing seasons, had had player revolt. The year before that he he took over was was a program that had been stuck in the mud for a variety of reasons. And he harnessed it and turned it into a basketball superpower and gave IU fans something to celebrate and not just be proud of, but feel like they were part of something bigger than themselves for the longest
period of time. Those are just a fascinating period of time in college basketball, and it really re established Indiana as one of the top programs in the country. You mentioned his early start in Indiana. I just want to highlight that. And then just two other coaching things is yes, I mean by 76. They were 32 and O he was Knight. Sorry, 76.
Knight was 36 at that point. So at the age of 36 he had a two year run of going 33 and or sorry 63 and 1:00 and had a undefeated and a title, But you even go before that like. You know, he took over Army at 25 years old. And I don't have the, you know, Ken Palm doesn't go back that far. So I don't know Army stats. But, you know, he's 18 and eight. His first year he's at Army for six years before he's 30.
He's 102 and 50 at Army, which, you know, I don't, I don't know, they're Ken Palm, who they were playing. But it's like that's a great record. He did all of this, like you said, had a pinnacle of a career by the time he was 36. And you talk about like, Wonderkins and it's like, oh, like this guy is a young coach like. He's 25, just straight to head
coaching, straight to success. Had you know five straight winning seasons at Army. I I was also thinking about this with Knight. Just the legacy is that you know, I've, I've heard this talked about like, you know Tom Brady for example, is like, you know he has a cup. You know Brady's got a lot of Super Bowls. But you could say like he, you know, he was unlucky in a couple. He was lucky in a couple. Like this is probably the right number.
The thing with Knight is. The 76 title, that's that. That's not like that was a title. The 81 title, that was a title. You could maybe say that 87 like Okay. That's a key smart shot. Like that's a toss up give. You know he's 2 for three, but you look at 70 like he's honestly for as good of a career as he had, was actually pretty unlucky because. Outside of a Scott May injury, they're probably 33 and or 63 and O or you know, they they go two straight seasons
back-to-back, undefeated. He has another title and 75, we all. You know, I don't just automatically give him the 93 title with Allen Henderson's injury, but that's a very bad injury to a team that had higher aspirations. There's also, you know, I don't want to dig too much into this, but it's like there's a world where if Knight's able to keep it together. He takes that 2002 team that Mike Davis took to the final game. Maybe he has a title there.
You know there's what I'm getting at is like, you can, you can see with a little bit of injury, Luck Knight could have 5-6 titles and just things playing out right. But it's like you can't. You can't also say like, oh, he would have lost them like the eight, the 76 and 81 ones were just hardcore, straight titles. Well, you know, and it's interesting. I there was a comment from Gary
Parrish of all people. I was watching some of the tributes in various places and Parrish was like, you know, there's a there's a real argument he was the greatest head coach of all time. And that isn't, that's not controversial to IU fans, who I think already think that Knight is the greatest coach of all time.
But it's interesting watching some of the reaction from across the country because they, you know almost all of the reaction has been well, not only did Knight win at this insanely high level, but he never cheated. He he had great disdain for the NCAA, but he obeyed the rules to the letter because that's how he
was as a person. You know he and you know I've always felt to some degree and there's a that quote that has been repeated a few times today where you know he said something along the lines of the joy is not in cheating to get great players. It's in beating the teams that cheated to get great players night.
You mentioned that that that amazing streak that he rattled off by the age of 36. And I almost want, you know, there's a there's a pardon season on the brink where you read where he almost walks away from coaching after winning the NCAA title in 81 because in his mind at that point he's 40 years old. What, what else is he going to
do? Because at that point he didn't think he was going to be the Olympic head coach because he had been passed over for the 1980 role, which actually ended up going in his favor because the US didn't play in those Olympics. And it it's what what I think is fascinating about Knight as a as a figure when you try to apply straight up logic it doesn't always work because Knight was motivated by things that I think are hard for the average person
to understand. Knight didn't go on coaching to to set the record for the most wins in NCAA history. Even though he did. He didn't go on coaching after that 81 season to win another title. He goes on coaching because while he's trying to sort his future out Landon Turner gets into an accident driving to Kings Island and and breaks his neck and his and you know it becomes a paraplegic and knight. Yeah and again this is this is from season on the brink. But Knight at that point
realizes he can't leave. Like he's he's got an emotional and a, you know, he's got a responsibility, I guess for lack
of a better term. And you know that it it's fascinating because real quick, also, part of the aura of Knight is that he gets Landon Turner drafted by the Celtics well, and this and this becomes part of the the very complicated legacy of Bob Knight. You cannot nobody none of these obituaries or anything that are coming out will really be able to fully capture the essence of Bob Knight because you can't it's it's too it's a larger than a lot it's like trying to write
a single book about Teddy Roosevelt like it's such a multi faceted life. It's it's it's it's it makes no sense if you put it down on paper and with night you know it's a little more you know night wasn't president. It's a lot more, it's a lot more constrained, but what he's. People, you already said he's Pope. He's right. But it's fascinating because, like, you know, here's a guy for whom, on the one hand, it's a constant stream of, well, look, he acted like a jerk here.
Or he, you know, he he had these publicized incidents that were really negative. But then on the flip side he's behind the scenes very quietly. He's raising you know hundreds of thousands of dollars to get Landon Turner's family a a van and and an equipped wheelchair so that he can move around. You know, he's he's he's putting, you know, bringing Turner in and putting him at the end of the of the scorer's table and and letting him watch games there.
And you know it he would he would do things and would would focus himself on doing things that really did make a tremendous difference in people's lives. And he didn't publicize those things. Now others did publicize them for him, you know, because you you would hear about these, you know, he would go and he would raise tons of money for the library. He would go and visit, you know, kids in hospitals and wouldn't wouldn't want anybody to know that he was there.
Now, you know you knew about it because you heard about it enough, but it was hard to reconcile for people who wanted to paint him as as simply a bully or simply somebody who was out of control all the time. And it's why I think there's so many varied ideas about Bob Knight as a person. You know, you had players who couldn't stand him, you know,
and would leave the program. You have players who would probably literally throw themselves in front of a bus for the guy, you know, Yeah, he, he inspired such a tremendous range of emotion and an intellectual response in so many people. And it inspired, I think, in the people that were fans of night, were fans of Indiana basketball because of night. It inspired this almost unceasing loyalty that you still see today. I mean, you know, we're here on
a Wednesday night at 8:40. There's 235 people live watching this. And and these, these testimonials and little comments are coming in on YouTube and they're pouring in. And I know there's thousands of people who feel the same way who are expressing these things.
They're, you know, I've gotten 25 text messages from friends, former students, people that that know that, you know, I'm obviously his, you know, a night fan and an IU fan just wanting to talk about it. And you know, the fact that that's happening, you know, I think just kind of illustrates how much night meant to so many people, how much of people's lives during this period from the mid, early, mid 70s all the way up to the present day got intertwined with night and and
the prism of night as as as basketball fed through it. It's a really fascinating phenomenon, and it's something that just not that many people really are able to inspire. And Knight was one of those folks that were really just, you know, capable of doing that almost effortlessly. And it's really interesting to kind of watch all of this, this interaction take place right now. Well, you mentioned that dichotomy and this was a story. I mean, it's almost become like a tall tale now.
I'm not even sure how much of it is real. But I remember before you know, I was either in high school or middle school. Like the story was at one of like the the freshman assemblies for IU, Knight got on a kid for being out of shape. And it's like that's all that that kind of run with. But then like you later learn that like he ended up pulling the kid aside talking to him and then he let him work out with the team and the kid drop you
know £60.00. But it's like the these stories like you said, like there's there's two sides to it. There's kind of the public facing and then what Knight actually did. But then it's also just becomes like this Paul Bunyan type tale where it's just like this this story, you know, the thing that. The other piece like we're kind
of all over the map here. The other piece you mentioned we were in the class together and I want to get to some of those stories, but and you know I we both had the privilege of getting to cover Bob Knight in a in a way of student, student, journalist. But the other piece of Knight that is hard to capture that we were there for and kind of with the tail end. But you know, he was very imposing, like in that class he is a legit 6768. At that time he was, you know. Not skinny.
He was you know 250 and I I remember in the class it's like, my God, it's like he's he's just imposing and like I I do remember he left the class and we would always go and like do you know stuff on the court. He came back to say something and I was in the back row and he just put his hand on my shoulder. Just you using me as like a steady. And it's like like holy shit like that's Bob Knight's hand. It's like, but he's just. And I remember thinking like, just don't, don't burp, don't
fart. Like, just don't do anything to draw attention to yourself but you. I think that sometimes gets lost to, you know when you when you just realize like he was a when he went after somebody, it was not scary, but it was like he definitely demanded attention. But as you said, like just this dichotomy of like he he could get angry, he could get mad, but he also. I mean, in a way he almost missed his time because he was so memeable and his quotes were just so funny and so on the
nose. And you know, he just had so many one liners. You know, we're both Indiana fans. We saw all the press conferences. You know, there there really is nobody out there like that today who has the kind of quips and jokes and comebacks. And you know, he's like, I I think, you know, just so many sides into the the interview with Jeremy Shaf where he's, you know, just like a little jazz. Dad's like, you know, you're not as good as your dad.
And it's like he's just like rant it, it's it, it it's so much in one package, as you say. Yeah. And I mean it's interesting in a lot of ways because ultimately I think a lot about the way that it ended here at IU and I think a lot about how it, it kind of forever changed the frame that Bob Knight will get viewed through for some fans. And it also essentially created a fracture, a fracture in the way that the fan base worked for a long time. It still is there to a large degree.
I mean it's it still hasn't healed and it was there before Knight got fired. You know, I mean, there were, I remember on the early days of the message boards, you know, those who were on like the independent Indiana Basketball Forum or the very early stagesofpeaks.com. You know, there were, there were the moles and the lemmings and the moles were the the folks that didn't like Knight, and the lemmings were the people that loved Knight.
And, you know, and it was fat. That was even happening then. That was 19961997. And you know it's it's interesting as someone who certainly felt like there was faults on both sides in terms of the Knight IU relationship. It just is a shame that it created such a rift between people between groups in the fan base, between Knight and the university. And you know, Knight, as you mentioned, he was in a tremendously clever guy. He he was very good at getting the last word in, even if it
left a bad taste in your mouth. And I think, you know, for a lot of people they became a culture to looking at Night as an enemy of IU because he certainly didn't have anything nice to say about IU for the longest time. And the feeling was kind of mutual there for about six or seven years, which a lot of times gets left out of the equation. You know, I think IU did a lot to try to bring Night back into the fold, starting with 2010, 2011.
And Night wasn't ready. And you know, when he finally was ready, it was it was late, you know, fortunately wasn't too late. But it was. It was one of those things where you would have loved to have had him around as a fully embraced elder statesman for a lot longer within the program. Yeah, he said. What Katie has at Purdue, it's like there's a part of me. It's like that. It sucks we didn't get that,
yeah. But, you know, I mean, I'd also, I think given Knight's personality and given the weight, it just wasn't in the cards. And, you know, look, I think that I, I love the fact that somehow, you know, and I think Mike Woodson deserves a huge amount of credit for this. And I think that Scott Dolson deserves a huge amount of credit for this. And I think Fred Glass, you know, made a lot of of efforts to try to make things happen as well.
I mean it for all of all of this to come together in the way that it did and at least allow Knight to get publicly recognized at an IU game the way that it happened with his former players at his side. The number of people that were at that game who still talk about how emotional of a moment that was. Matt Cohen, former student journalist who's covering Auburn right now, talked about like
that. That feeling in that arena was hard to even find an analogue for within the history of of IU and and certainly within what we normally see in in college basketball. And I'm glad that moment happened. I remember, yeah, there was the there was a A Pod live, the live podcast at the Bluebird back in 2019. That was the first time I I met night since I was in class with you. And I remember I sat with him in the green room for a while and we, you know, chatted a little bit.
And that was, that was really a special moment for me. And it was just fascinating, even at that age. The gravity, as difficult as it was for him to move at that point, the gravity with which you felt around Bob Knight, it was just kind of almost a supernatural force. And that's that's what's been on my mind here the most recently, is that as deteriorating as his health had been over the course of the last few years, I'm glad that moment at least happened.
And as much for everybody else around Knight As for Knight himself that that occurred. And I'm really fascinated to see, you know, how people's remembrances are as they move forward here over the next couple days. We're already starting to see some pop up. I mean the Dan Wetzel piece is actually really well done.
I haven't had a chance to read a whole lot of other ones, but I would really encourage, especially our younger audience, talk to the people who were around when night was there, go back and watch some of those games that are up on the YouTube channel. You're never going to get the full, you know, experience of what it was like during that period. But I'm glad that, you know, there's some connection still back to that, that are that people can can look at and talk with people about.
And it's really, as you mentioned, it's it's so multifaceted. It's it's the humor and the cynicism and the sarcasm and the funny comments as much as it is the tremendous XS and OS the tremendous amount of of coaches across the the spectrum that respected the man and that
studied from the man. And you know and it was you know we were doing a segment on IU women's basketball you know the the first women's full time women's basketball coach Bee Gorton who took her team to the final Four like she people would think oh night you know misogynist wouldn't ever have women in in his in his practice. She was at his practices all the time, learning from him. Pat Summit would come and watch
practices all the time. He had a tremendous respect for people that he respected in their professions, for coaches, you know, and even for media. I mean, as much as people talk about how the media did night dirty, some did.
You know, certainly there were a lot of reporters who and columnists who either didn't like Knight, and I'm not saying they were wrong and not liking Knight, but but knew that Knight was a reliable pinata for them to whack on because it's easy to punch up with a lot of these things. And but Knight had great friends in the media. You know, he had, he had, you know, friendships with a lot of
the top writers. He had friendships with with people who were top notch broadcasters and it's just kind of interesting you know even in that population you know and a lot of times you get journalists who you know they they'll tend to they all you know they all concentrate on kind of similar things. You see similar themes. There were huge disagreements among those people about how they felt about Bob Knight and how they interacted with him.
But the one thing that you'll notice is the people that generally like spent time with Knight and and worked with him tended to be fans of his after a while and. It's it's really interesting kind of thinking about that. It's like the more exposure you had to the guy, you got more of his personality that you supposedly hated, not less, and that actually made you like the guy more. And a lot of it was just how original he was in the way that
he conducted himself. And you mentioned his connection with other IT. It was outside of that. Like he he appreciated. As I view it, he appreciated other people who had greatness. But you look at he was great friends with Tony Larussa, like I'll never during our class was when it was 98, 'cause he was talking about the McGuire Sosa home run battle. And he was talking about how he was talking to Larussa the night before, like about McGuire
hitting. And he was friends like Dewayne Lucas, Bill Parcells, you know, he cast he, he had connections in all sports and he was kind of, but it's like I think he just viewed that other greatness. You mentioned that him coming back to Assembly Hall. Which was huge. I'm also, I'm very happy with the fact that, you know, we talk about what Woodson has done as a former player, being coach, kind of embracing the past, bringing
those players back. And I'm if this had to happen, it feels right that it happens with Woodson at the helm that had it been like Crean or Archie not knocking them. It's just it feels like. If there has to be an end point to the Bob Knight story, it does feel right that it happens while Woodson's at the helm and you know, 'cause this is going to be an emotional couple of weeks, months, like, you know, under
the wrong hand. Again, how the team deals with this as a whole, it it's not anything that matters when you're talking about life or death, but it just, it does feel it, it feels right that that Woodson is at the helm of this and is going to shepherd the IU basketball team dealing with this. Yeah well and you know look a couple of things that people have brought up that I think are worth mentioning. I mean the he created so many
iconic moments for IU fans. I mean someone mentioned the the, the, the Jack the Purdue fan thing on the coaches show which you know at a time when you know the IU Purdue rivalry is different than the IU Kentucky rivalry. It's it's you know people who are here know what I'm talking about. But to at the height of that rivalry to bring out a a a donkey with a Purdue hat on on a on a on a coach's show. I mean the the just who would have thought to do that but that was a Bob Knight thing.
You know the the you know the fact that he was so present like the number of commercials that are out there from central IN I I almost posted one on the Twitter feed. It's him like selling Buicks, you know, he's advertising for like Central IN Buick Dealers, and he's throwing in a signed basketball. If you buy like a new Lesabre from Dave Skillman or whatever dude his. His the golfing stuff, like just search Bodite Golf like it's like some of those golf shows are just like wow.
And and you know, I think what what's interesting about him is he was he was very conscious that what he said and did was funny. And it's like Pat Knight said in that piece. It's like, you know, there was there was a plan with almost everything he did, whether it was getting you know, like you know, maybe it came back to haunt him with Ted Valentine. But it's like the whole whip thing that was to get the pressure off the the team and
get it on to him. Like let's just get all the pressure on To me, you know, a lot of the the rest stuff was that like that just make me the attention so the players can go play. You know that it really there was always a method to the madness. He wasn't just doing things to do things, Yeah. And you know that it's it's, it's what made Knight such a compelling figure, not just to fans, but also to writers and
and journalists. And you know, someone mentioned the Frank Deford piece The Rabbit Hunter, which which really is a remarkable piece of sports journalism. But even the Dick Schat piece that I posted earlier on the on the Crimson cast What? You mentioned Season on the Brink. I mean, that was just one of the one of the first books of its kind. I mean, you know, you had Friday Night Lights and you have Season on the Brink, and they're kind of two of a similar piece.
It's like here is an unflinching inside look at you know in in Friday Night Lights a high school town in in you know Texas and what football means both both the good and the ugly and season on the brink you know was an accident It was one of those things where night just I think as the second thought was like yeah sure Mike Schefsky says this writers in OK dude I'm going to let him watch all of our practices and what he's going to write something for the Sunday like you know you know
variety section. No he he writes this whole thing about night and if the whole thing's about night it's not about the team. I mean the team gets mentioned, but it's a personality profile of someone that is just incredibly complex. And you know you you would, you would find yourself constantly trying to evaluate what Knight was doing and he would always seem to be like a step or two
ahead. And I think to some degree, you know, this is where you know the his role within Indiana University becomes a fascinating 1 because he was such a larger than life figure. And I think he certainly leaned on that to a large degree and you know having worked in academia for a long time that that engenders a lot of of anger and jealousy. And and look Knight was not a was certainly not a perfect Co worker, was certainly not a perfect you know citizen of the university.
But he would offset but he would offset that by doing all of these tremendous things. And this is, this is again, where it's just such a complicated legacy, but it is such a dominant legacy in terms of like this is someone who, if you didn't like him, he gave you plenty of reasons not to like him. If you loved him, he gave you plenty of reasons to love him. And he didn't particularly seem to care one way or another. It wasn't.
I never got a sense, you know, the the clever asides aside, the clever one liners, you never got the sense night would do things specifically because he was trying to be popular. You know there's a there's a period in the 198485 season where IU goes to Illinois and they they bench all the starters and you know it's an important game.
Indiana's struggling. He just benches all the starters, doesn't play them, plays all freshman and ove BLOB at center and they lose the game and people freak out and night goes on his coaches show the next day and basically is like, you know what? Leave the coaching to me. I I know what I'm doing. It's where, you know, people forget like the the, you know, the bury me upside down on my
critics and kicks my ass. That was a direct response to benching all of his starters in the second-half of the game at Minnesota in that 1994 season and Indiana lost by 5106 to 56. It was the IT was Knight's largest loss at IU and I can distinctly remember as a 1314 year old, whatever. However, all I was at the time you know on the nightly news on you know Channel 6 Ed Source is like, is night, is night done? Should night be fired like stuff like that.
And then they turn around they win games down the stretch and I think finished second in the conference that year and that was what that was. In response to you know he would he would create things that would become cultural icons almost by accident. Ivan Renko is a great example for those who don't know the story, like Night in 199293, they had a a team that was at or near the top of the poles for most of the season. So what does night do?
In late January I think it was or mid January he gets asked a question either on his coaches show or in a press conference. I think it was his coaches show And he says well you know instead of talking about the team, I want to talk about this kid that we're recruiting out of Yugoslavia. You know, he's a six, eight kid named Ivan Renko and you know he can do kind of anything with the basketball.
He could shoot, he can dribble, he can drive This kids going to be maybe one of the best basketball players in college basketball when we get him in her next year. Now there was no Ivan Renko, but for literally like a month all you heard about was Ivan Renko. I remember, you know, there were TV reports that people had seen like Ivan Renko get on a plane and and you know, fly to New York.
A recruiting service claimed that they had scouted Ivan Renko and they they rated him like a high four-star prospect or something like that. Like there was no Ivan Renko. But you know, Knight did that to take pressure off of his team and it worked. It was fascinating to watch the entire media world and the and fandom for IU kind of wrap around what Knight would do or say when he was at the height of his powers at Indiana. It's something I'll never
forget. Well and and that's you you mentioned like that's something you just you you don't see but it's like that Knight knew the power he had and it's partially because he had so much success early but he used it unlike.
Very few coaches I've ever seen. Like, it's somebody who, you know, it's like that, you know, the best analogy I can think of is like if you're, you know, valedictorian and you're three months before you're going to graduate high school and it's like, you know, you're going to get all A's. It's like you're kind of, you're, you know, you're good, but you can kind of coast. And he had that.
Like everything you're mentioning is kind of just a guy who's like, yeah, I could do this and say stuff and you see, you even see it today. It's like, you know. You know after a couple titles Roy Williams still would you know kind of get defensive on the meat. He's like he's still doing the coaching thing. Like I think the only person who may have that is like Belichick. But Belichick's not funny. But Belichick is just like on to on. You know he he knows he doesn't
have to answer any questions. You know on to Cleveland who cares. But he's not funny. You know Knight had the the funny and and doing that. But it was definitely a. I know I'm not going to get fired. Like I know I'm probably the smartest guy out here. So it's like whatever you mentioned the I you. I've always wondered this because you and I've talked about this many, many times that
you know. He, he was kind of playing with LSU like he kind of, you know, used his power to get more leverage against IU and kind of said I was going to leave or go to a different school and then use that to get more leverage. That. I've always wondered if like this there's a part of where it's like, you know, the the dog
that catches the car. Like, you know, by the 90s he had almost gotten so much power at IU because he had the leverage that it ended up. You know, causing him some issues of like having just too much overall power. But again, it's like this is with night, you know, like when when I would talk to to other fans, you know, over the years and it's like why couldn't he just, you know, not get mad or not throw the chair? By the way, 50 minutes in we haven't even mentioned the chair.
You know, why can't he not be mad and not throw the chair? My my thing was always like. You don't get it's all together like you you take that away and I just don't think night doesn't stand. You know it's the four legs of a chair that hold it together. You can't just say hey be less angry or don't do the antics. Because like we said it wasn't like that was just I'm screwing off and now I'm going to coach like it was all part of that Stew. But I I've often wondered that that like.
Every time he had the leverage, he pushed IU to get more to the point that I mean you you. When we went to school, it's like IU had a had an athletic department and had basketball, like basketball had its own colors, had its own logo, like basketball was a separate entity apart from athletics. And I do wonder if that that didn't help him in the end. Yeah, I mean, I think that I have. There's a much longer show to be done on that and it's an
interesting question. It really is because I think I do think Knight and and this Bears out. If you read season on the Brink, it like Knight wins that title in 81 and he kind of gets bored and he kind of drifts off and he's like, I'm going to let the assistants do the recruiting. And a lot of the season on the brink is him getting mad at the fact that they don't have in his mind the players that they need to compete and then he recommits himself.
And they they, you know, they win a national title in 87. It's a wild thought to think like he and he kind of does sorry. It's like he kind of takes like, you know, two years off, so to speak, and just kind of lets it coast. It doesn't work. But then it's like he just turns it on. He's like, all right, like the the season The Brink was 85, they won the title in 87. It's like he starts doing Jukos like, you know, he smarts at Jukos.
It's like he just taps into new stuff and like boom, turns it on and then like, you know the Jay Edwards didn't quite work out. But it's like he kind of then he's like figures out 92. And then that's again the legacy, a totally different pod. It's like, it felt like he was coasting when we were there, but it's like I felt like he was like I'm going to turn it on one last time and that was that team.
He coalesced in O2, but that's that's again, the amazing part of night is like coaches can coast, but then when they try and turn it on, it's like suddenly, you know, they don't have the same connections, but it's just like he, he in 18 months, he has a national championship caliber team. Sorry. No, it's it's right.
And that's it's kind of the big question mark because it's Knight was interested in coaching his way, and there were a lot of periods during his career where he could have gotten better players, You know, better, more athletic players, dudes, dudes. Yes, as as chronic Hoosier and I talked about, I mean, there were a lot of moments like that. But Knight was very interested in coaching players that he
wanted to coach. And there's a if you read all the stuff on Knight, which I have, there was a real streak in him that was like, I want to do things my way because his way had been proven to be so successful that what didn't mean that he wasn't willing to change what his way was, but once he changed what his way was, that became the new his way. And there was a rigidity to that, that, you know, certainly I think Knight could have won more national titles.
But as as that Parish thing pointed out, like Knight will always be held, I think by basketball people in much higher regard than John Wooden. Because Knight won games without having a a very demonstrable, you know, bag bag man pulling in players. Knight will always be held in higher regard than Dean Smith. Because even though Dean Smith was a very fine coach Dean Smith he operated an NBA factory with all of the players that came and went with with North Carolina.
And you know you taught you look at Knight and what he did at IU and he he won all those games and all those championships with one NBA All Star like multi time All Star and I or Hall of Famer and Isaiah Thomas you know and he had Grammy look I mean Randy Whitman was an excellent NBA player. Mike Woodson was a was an excellent NBA. You know, Ken Benson had a pretty long career, but the caliber of player that Knight wanted to coach was so
different. And I think that IU fans identify with that as much as anything else. You know, because Indiana is a state. It's it's it's in the middle of nowhere. It's it's an agrarian factory combo state. It's a state that doesn't have a lot of the advantages of being on one of the coasts. And you know, IU people and Indiana people and especially people that have nothing to do with Indiana University. I think this is the the population that gets forgotten about.
The people who were did not go to college, but IU was their, that was their team and they followed that team and they took a special pride in the ethic that IU Under Knight carried, which was we are going to take a group of players who aren't the most talented, who aren't the most physically gifted, who may be limited in certain aspects of their game and we're still going to win at least 7075% of our games. We're going to win a a Big Ten title. We're going to compete for national titles.
I mean, you know, one of one of the, the kind of the, the favorite under the radar players for IU fans from this era was a guy in Brian Sloan who never shot the ball. His whole idea, the whole purpose he's out there is screening for people became what like Dick Vitale's watchword, you know, it was like Sloan 45. I mean that was the fact that Knight was able to establish that kind of a mentality and that kind of of an ethic and and the the emotional response among
fans for those sides of things. It just complete it perfectly fit Indiana, the state of Indiana in a way that it probably wouldn't have fit at another school or another state.
I mean it it would have been hard to have seen him do this at you know like a Texas or a Florida or his or Wisconsin where he you know he actually accepted the the job back in in 1968 and then backed out of it. I mean, it's it is really interesting, like it was such a perfect marriage for almost 30 years, and not not necessarily in terms of the university, because certainly things have fallen apart by the end there. But it was such a perfect marriage between coach and
fanbase. And again, not everybody, but the vast majority of the fanbase, it was, I don't think you could have picked a better coach, a coach that was more representative of how people wanted to root for a team then you could have with Knight in Indiana and even in the lean years, you felt like Knight was just one player away or one result away from getting things turned around and that that's it. That's probably never going to get replicated ever again with IU.
It's really hard to envision and I guess you know that I don't want to go forever here. We're going to wrap up in a couple of minutes, but I'll I'll probably take that away from it More than anything else is like, here's the the fact that I, you know, you and me as as people growing up, as fans, as as students, as people who were in his class, got a chance to be a part of that for a lot of our, our early years.
I'll always treasure that. I mean, one of the reasons I go back and digitize all the old tapes of those games and try to put them on YouTube, I I want to try to preserve that in some way. And and you know, there was a time when Indiana University basketball wasn't just special. It really was the epicenter of college basketball and night was the reason why. I don't know if you could have done it at another place in quite the same way.
Don Fisher once right after Knight was fired was like these two things did a lot for each other and it's true. But I I can see we can certainly say in the 15 years prior to night getting to IU and certainly for most of the 15 to 20 years since he left IU is, you know, it's it's been a struggle for IU and it was certainly a struggle for Knight two. You know, Knight went to Texas Tech certainly didn't have the same level of success because
that's a tough place to win. And I and you know, Knights magic was kind of inextricably linked to what he was able to do here at IU. And I just think that everybody tonight, if you think about anything with this, think about how special that was, if you were a part of it. And if you're if you're further down the line, if that legacy precedes you it's it helped to build what Indiana basketball still is today what it what it could be again.
And I really do think that that's that's an important thing and I think that every fan base that's had such an iconic figure in its midst for as long as as night was here. I think that's something you can take with you and and keep as part of the way that you think about that program, think about your relationship to the program and that's certainly what I'll be thinking about tonight. I I'm not sure like that was great that was all I mean that was all very well said.
I'm not sure I I echo all of that and and agree. I mean, I I feel lucky to have grown up in Bloomington during that era, you know during that run of 87 to 93 when when it it wasn't the the 70s and the undefeated seasons. But it's like it was still close enough. You heard that and it yeah, I, I, I echo everything you said. And it's it's a sad it. It does hit you. It kind of hits your own mortality because it's like that was the coach growing up and there's family.
It's just, it is so interwoven with with me growing up and I think everyone who's on this pod and listening and just a fan of IU, most people have a night story or a night interaction. And you know, when I tell people, I was, I was in his class, I was like, I got to know some stories. And it's like I I have stories like, I have tons of stories, like. And I think that's that's The thing is, you know you can bump into famous people or you.
It's like I've never met anybody who had an interaction with Knight that doesn't have a story where it's like, Oh yeah, I got my story, I got your. And it's whether it's a funny or bad, like there's a story to go with it. You know, I also just it's, you know, apropos of nothing else. But I I do wonder how you know how the university is going to
honor him. You know it's it's always been the joke you know Dick Vitale never starts to say you know they got to name the court after Bob Knights like all right the court is named like all IU fans know that's branch for Kraken is also very important So if Kraken did something as well. But I do you know I do wonder you know what what else can you name out there or or do you know Knights in the the the IU Hall of Fame doesn't need to be answered today.
But I just I that's the other thing I think of is like you know so that that he you know if you were going to take Mccracken's name off the court and move him somewhere else. It would be fitting to put night there and be fitting to name Assembly hall after night. It would be fitting to name the athletic. I mean it. I go, I go back to, it's I go back to that initial thought of he wasn't just Indiana University, somebody from Indiana. He was Indiana.
And you know, when I grew up, the Colts were bad. The Colts weren't there. The Pacers were, as you said, kind of an afterthought. They were there, but they just weren't really that, that, that thought of, you know, up until 91 or 92, when the Colts started to have a little bit of success in, the Pacers had Reggie Miller, like that entire run. The state was Notre Dame or Indiana, and for basketball it was Indiana and it was Bob Knight.
And he was when I would travel, it would be, oh, Bob Knight. Like he throws a chair and it's like, I'd hear that we went to France and I heard that. It's like that's. That was the state of Indiana. So you know and it's it's a it's just it's a sad night for everyone it's conflicted. But in the end I I think you're right. It's like it was special that we we had that and we had it at IU. No. And look I mean all that's true and I'm it's gonna take me a a while still to process what I'm
feeling. But you know, I'll say this night and IU. Breaking up the way that they did was like, you know, watching your parents get divorced and then take shots at each other for, you know, 10 years. And so I'm just glad that, you know, there's still people who are going to point out things that they didn't like about night, things they didn't like about the way night interacted with IU. And I get all that and and I'm not saying those people are wrong.
I'm just saying for the people that really loved night and love Indiana. I'm glad that we don't have to have that as the backdrop. I'm glad that at least the reconciliation of these two institutions were the backdrop. And so look, I appreciate everybody joining us tonight. We didn't want to go too long on this, but certainly was nice to be able to talk about some memories and and watch everybody's comments coming in and and hear your memories as
well. We we appreciate it and we certainly appreciate Coach Knight our our sympathies with as we mentioned his his wife Karen and his sons Tim and Pat and his his grandchildren and all of his extended family. So Bob Knight dead at the age of 83. Well, we'll certainly have more coverage with this on the back home network moving forward, but we really appreciate you folks taking the time to join us tonight. Scott, thank you for hopping on on short notice and we will chat
about this again in the future. We hope you folks have a great rest of the evening. Go watch the remainder of the post game podcast that do the work is doing right now on the women's game as they had a a big win tonight in their exhibition game and both the women's team and the men's team we've learned are going to be wearing commemorative patches honoring. Bob Knight on the jerseys throughout the course of the season. So happy to see that. Anyway, thanks everybody again for Scott.
I'm Galen on behalf of Crimson Cast and the Back Home Network. We'll catch you folks on the flip side. That's all everybody. Well done man.