Ep 1008 - IU Basketball Preview with Alex from Inside The Hall

You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home Field Apparel. All right, folks, welcome back to Crimson Cast. Scott here with you. And we're starting our basketball previews. And Oh my gosh, does it feel good to be talking about basketball and not football? So we're going to keep it to basketball. Although at the very end of this pod, Alex and I do go into a bit of a football talk. I I I can't help myself. I'm just, I'm just masochist. I just keep going, going at the pain.

But I'm super excited about today's podcast. We have Alex Bozich from the founder of Inside the Hall, the original OG in my mind of the Indiana basketball kind of media sphere that has built up over the last 20 years or so. So great discussion with Alex, but before we get there, want to give a shout out to the entire home network. Definitely check out Assembly Call. Doing the work, just tons of great podcast firing up now on

the home network. After every game Assembly Call will be there doing their their recap. That's must listen for me especially. I'm driving home. I love just picking it up on YouTube, get it on my phone and just listen on the drive home. It's a great way to recap the game and the entire home network is brought to you by your friends over at Home Field Apparel, Just Home and Home Everywhere Home Field, Home Network Home Field Apparel has the new Heartland collection of

jackets. Just awesome stuff growing up. I I mean, I grew up in Bloomington. I I wanted to go to IU, but I also kind of wanted to spread my wings to his friends were going different colleges. So I I applied to Wisconsin. I applied to a lot of Big 10 schools. Honestly. Wisconsin was where I kind of really wanted to go and I got I got wait listed. I ended up getting in. But at that point I agreed to go to IU or I signed my letter of

intent for IU, so to speak. But you know as a student not as an athlete or anything. All of this said home field apparel has a killer Wisconsin jacket. It's got kind of the logo I remember in the 80s the West with The Walking Badger. It says Badgers on the back part of their Heartland collection. You got Minnesota, Michigan, Northwestern, as we would say OG Big 10 schools for you New kids with West Coast, Big 10 home field apparel has the Heartland

collection. Great bomber jackets, you know, tough to wear if you're an Indiana fan, but you can definitely pick up one of them. You know, I I think you can get away with a Wisconsin one. There's not a lot of bad blood between Wisconsin and Indiana, so check them out and if you're getting your first order on home field, use the promo code HOME 23 for 15% off your first purchase. Check them out Home field apparel.com. And one final programming note before we get to Alex from

inside the hall. We will not be talking about the Mackenzie and Bako arrest on this podcast. I probably won't bring it up on any of the other preview podcast that I do. I'm aware of it. Know what happened. But I just think that it's something that you know, it's still still out there to be played out. We don't know what all happened. We don't know what the ramifications are going to be.

And so I think until it plays out, it doesn't make a lot of sense at least on this podcast to be bringing it up and talking about it. But just wanted to mention that obviously we're aware about it and but we're not going to dig into it because it's just not really the platform. I want to be talking about it and also want to be previewing the season. And I'm, I'm aware that, you know, if there's a suspension that's going to affect certain games and we'll discuss that as the time comes.

But it's still something that's in flux, still don't have all the details. And so at this point it's not something that we're going to bring up or talk about in the preview podcast, at least the ones that I'm doing until we know more and just kind of know how it's going to affect things on the court. I think that's at least for me the, you know, the, the most important thing in the end this podcast is about basketball. You know, college kids are kids

and people make mistakes. Not condoning it. Again, I don't really know what happened outside of what we've all read about. But I think at this point it's best just to focus on how it's going to affect the team. And right now we don't really have those answers. There's no point in digging into it. So just wanted to bring that up up front that it's not going to be mentioned and it's not because this was recorded, you know, two months ago or it's not something that we don't know

about. It's just something that really isn't, you know, the the purvey of this kind of podcast, So just pointing that out there up front and won't do it again. But as you hear the other previews that I have scheduled and lined up for the next couple of weeks, not going to dig into it unless we get an announcement that says, you know, that there's suspensions and what games, in which case then we can

discuss how that'll be affected. But at this point, I mean there's so many questions, don't even know what guys on the court are going to look like. So not even sure what we're gaining and or losing. So anyway, just bringing that up upfront, mentioning that and then we will let that go for

now. And now very excited to have Alex on the podcast, a great discussion as we look at kind of the Woodson era as a whole and what we can look forward to and what we're both looking forward to for this upcoming season. So with no further ado, Alex from inside the hall. All right, Excited to have him back on one of the O GS. Like we get kind of the OG podcast, but this is literally the OG of Indiana basketball. Social social media, social.

The Alex Bozich inside the hall, dude, glad to have you on. Good to talk to you again. Scott, it's always a pleasure to talk IE basketball with you. You know, I have a ton of respect for you and Galen and kind of laying the. The groundwork for all of us who followed after you in the IU podcasting game. So anytime you want to have me on Crimson Cast the answer is always going to be yes.

I will say, you know it's it's grown on me the the Crimson cast name and I I named our pod but it's like I inside the hall is just the best name like you you killed it on naming like well done years ago. I I'm so proud of you for the name. It's it's well done. I can't. I can't take credit for it because. I've told the story before when we were when Ryan and Eamon and I were coming up with the name for the site. We I still actually have the

Gmail thread where the names. I'd love to know what toss about. And some of the ones that didn't make the cut are I'm glad they didn't make the cut, but Eamon, actually, it's credit for tossing out the name inside the hall is like, we've been trying to figure this out for a couple weeks and he just throws that inside the hall. I'm like. Wow. I'll go register it right now. What a great name. So he gets all the credit for that.

So that's great. Yeah. If you're not, if you're not following his latest venture too, I'll give him a a free shout out here. Go to eamonbrennan.com and check out his work that he's doing over on Sub Stack. Really good stuff. No, he's fantastic. You've had a lot of good people come through there so it's it's been you have a good eye for talent as well. I'd I'd love to know that list of like is like Creed, Creed and Crimson on there. Like, I think you guys started. Actually, you're Samson.

You're like Samson, right? Yeah, it was the first year of the first year of Inside the Hall was the year that kind of everything came falling down. So it was like the summer before Eric Gordon plays for Indiana, so there's all the high expectations. And remember that season I think they beat. It was like what Purdue and Michigan State at home, back-to-back they did, yeah.

And also, they wanted Illinois too, because I remember it was a huge game because that was Eric Gordon, like going back and yeah. Yeah, thanked in the shot. So yeah, it was. After that, it got pretty bleak, man. Not, not, not the greatest time to enter the the IE basketball market.

I always joke with people, you know, really, it's been amazing just to kind of see the site grow and the support despite the lack of success for the program because really there there's not even been an Elite Eight since we've been doing this. There's been a couple Big 10 championships. There's been I think what, 36 Sweet Sixteens. But other than that. A lot of seasons to forget sprinkled in there. So yeah, hopefully one one of these days we'll get to talk about a lead eight, Final Four

something. You know, it's funny. We I was, you know, we we had our one thousandth episode and I went back and I found some of our original first episode, our first season and it's like we started in 2009, like the Big 10. This we started when the Big 10 season started in Queen's first year and it's like we're doing preview and postgame podcast at that point. It was just just me doing half of them. And it's like, I look back like, what the hell was I doing?

Like we were like, what we're going into a teeth of like a one in 14 season and we're doing these previews like playing Michigan. It's like you're going to lose. That's it. Like moving on. But yeah, it's it's wild that we both started in that era and it was it was a rough time. But you you bring up a great thing. That actually is the first question I wanted to ask you something I've been thinking about. You know, this is you tell me if

I'm crazy. I don't want to start off too optimistic, but this is one of the first times in the last 20 years, the other time being right kind of in that, you know, Stew of the Zeller Oladipo #1 team. This is the first time that I actually see a path for us to get back to where I think we all want to be as a fan base.

Now I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I look at what Woodson's doing on the court, you know, getting, you know, the guys he got this all Stevens aware and Embako and some of those pieces. You know, I know we just didn't get, you know, boogie flan as a 5 star, but we got Liam Mcneely, you know, we're we have five stars in the hopper. It seems like there's a plan in recruiting.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but if I look at it like this is the first year I can see a plan and see a path where it's like, hey, if this team does pretty good and then we get like two more five stars next year and then, you know, Woodson really is able to get this going. Like I I see for the first time in 20 years a path to us being to where I want to be. Tell me if I'm crazy or if you

kind of feel the same thing too. I would say from my perspective, the biggest compliment I can give Mike Woodson thus far in his tenure is just kind of getting the stability back with the program. Yeah, it seemed like for so long it was on a roller coaster. Up and down there would be, you know, the highs of the Queen era followed by a really bad season. And then obviously we know all know how the Archie era played

out. But. The fact that Woodson's come into a program and kind of laid the, you know, the first two seasons expectation is going to we're going to make the tournament, right. So I think that's kind of the first step every year Indiana needs to be in the tournament. So if they make it again this year and they finish in, let's say the top half of the Big 10, because I think obviously the size of the league continues to grow, I mean, it's going to be 18 teams next year, so.

You could be the 8th or 9th best team in the Big 10 and still be pretty good. You know, next year, even this year, I think if you're 6th or 7th, I know people want to finish higher than that, but I still think if you're in the top half, you're still a pretty good team.

So I think just being setting like the baseline expectation of being in the tournament every year, I I think if you can continue to stack those appearances eventually I think you're going to breakthrough in some manner, right? If if you continue to have the talent that he's been able to to bring in, I think. He's connected very well with the players on the on the roster. It seems like everybody's very happy just to to be on the team

and to play for him. Has a good relationship with him, which is something we couldn't always say in the in the middle of our era, in the green era, it seemed like, you know that he would. Most of those coaches would wear guys down a little bit and they would maybe grow weary of some of the things that they did from a coaching perspective or just, you know, whatever conflicts they have, but it seems like.

I I've not heard really anything that seems to suggest that any players have anything but love for Mike Woodson. And I think having that connection with the players, being able to get talent and then being able to get to the tournament every year. I don't know if you can really set like an expectation of hey, this year we have to get to the Sweet 16 or this year we have to get to the final Four because in the tournament we all know anything can happen.

I think you want to give yourself a chance to get in, get a favorable seed, and then and then see what happens. So. I agree with you in terms of the optimism from the standpoint of I think he's just brought a solid foundation to the tournament or to the to the program. I think the next step is all right, The first year he he got into what, the playing game and then they they played they won a game and lost to Saint Mary's last year. They get to the second round.

So. So now I'm not saying it has to happen this season, but I think the next step is let's get to the second weekend and and see how that goes and then you just kind of have to build from there, but. It's not like he took over a completely bare cup cupboard either. I mean obviously having Trace Jackson Davis there in the program kind of set you up to have some success, but to his credit, he has been able to fill

in some of the gaps. Saber Johnson was a great get I think from the transfer portal getting Miller cop and then this this past offseason being able to bring in where as you mentioned in Bako, I think Anthony Walker can be a piece that helps. Getting a guy like Gabe Cubs who is probably going to be what, a three or four year player that gives you those are just continuing to have these incremental steps I think ultimately set you up for success in the long run. Yeah, no, I agree.

I the the thing that I'm really curious to see this year is you know what, this year is so interesting because there's so many new pieces, you know, so, so many changes.

The thing that I'm really interested in is, you know how much of the offense the last two years was Woodson just running based on what he had in that Trace Jackson Davis was awesome, but Trace Jackson Davis was kind of, you know, the sun that everybody orbited around and you kind of you had to create an offense around Trace Jackson Davis. It's not like same thing Purdue's having with Zach Edie.

It's like you you can't not do something with that you know asset, but it's also it's limiting in a very weird way. I'm really curious to see how our offense runs this year and I think it's what makes this year's projections so hard as there's so many question marks. But it's also like I don't know if last year, last two years that was the offense Woodson wanted to run or if the OR if he just looked at his pieces and says this is the this is the best offense that I can run and

maximize the pieces that I have. Well, we're going to find out pretty soon if he was just running that offense because of the personnel that he had. The one thing that kind of gives me pause when I look at this roster and say all this, OK, all of a sudden are they going to shoot a bunch more threes? I just kind of look down the names of some of these guys. Yeah, like who's going to do? Who's going to make, who's going to take the threes? Who's going to take the high

volume of threes? Trey Galloway, I talked to him at media today a little bit about about that and and he was mentioning just, you know he he feels like he could be a guy that maybe takes a little bit more volume but also he has to I think become a little bit more comfortable just kind of. Letting the shot fly when it comes to him and then you you look at the other guy who's Avery Johnson.

I don't know that you want him taking, I mean he's he shot a pretty good percentage but do you want him taking six or seven threes a game? I I don't know CJ Gunn, such a small sample size coming off the bench last year but his his percentage I believe from three-point range was below 10. So that's not necessarily something that we that the Indiana fans can count on coming through this year. I think he's going to obviously be much better.

Wild card I guess is Imbacco. He was a pretty high volume 3 point shooter at the EYBL level. I think most people think they're going to try to line up with Imbacco and wire and renew. We'll see how that works out if it if it does come to fruition. But in that scenario if he is playing the three, I think he's going to have to take some threes. But I I just don't foresee a large jump in three-point volume

with this roster. I could see it the following year when you bring in Liam Mcneely and maybe you do a better job in the portal of getting a guard or two that can be a higher volume than 3 point shooter. But I I just look at this roster and I I look at Kilo Ware, I look at Malik Renew, I look at Peyton Sparks. These are guys that are going to be getting scoring opportunity opportunities on a lot of possessions and they're not going to be coming from beyond three-point range.

I mean you you kind of feel the same way just in terms of the volume of of three-point shots. I just don't see the roster set up to be. This team that's going to all of a sudden come out and take you know 2025 threes a game. Yeah, I I tend to agree. Although last year it felt like threes were just such an afterthought like that.

That's the you know, like you had Miller Cop who was a really good 3 point shooter and they just didn't get him the ball a lot or at least it felt like they weren't getting him the ball a lot. You know, the the the positive way you can look at is, you know, Woodson, I'm not trying to be an apologist here like I'm I'm just trying to stay positive. But you look at Woodson like you know first year the team shot 33% from three, last year was 36%. So like they're making

incremental gains. I I agree with you though I do look at it as like you know what we've missed is kind of that Jordan Halls, Matt Roth kind of like we have a dead eye 3 point shooter you you kind of had that with Miller Cop, but you saw it last year where he was. It was really hard to get him the volume that you wanted to get or they just weren't looking

to him to for that volume. I I guess I'm also just more interested in not that you need more volume in three-point shooting, but just you know is the offense going to be run a little more you know guard to post versus last year was very post to guard. It was very much like it went into Trace and then it came back out and that just kind of limited things and it slowed things down at times.

But you know, last year is a tough I, I, I continue to go back and you know, the more I look retrospectively at last year, the more I'm impressed with what Woodson did and what the pieces that you had and that, you know, you had to do that. But it's also like you lost Xavier Johnson, you know, a third of the way in and basically you're just like, all right, our backcourt is Jalen Hood. Like there's a there's a freshman who's really not a point guard, who's supposed to

be a two guard. And it's like we're going to put all the responsibilities of everything in the backcourt on your shoulders and it's it's going to work. You know, I just, I don't think in the sands of time that the Xavier Johnson injury is just not going to be remembered enough at how much it really probably fouled up last season. And as good as Jalen Hood Schaffino was, he probably could have even been better had Xavier been there the entire year.

So I just I I I'm curious to see how that all works. But yet as you mentioned, you know, if it's going to be a guard heavy team this year, it's like where who are the guards going to be? Like you have Xavier Johnson, then it's kind of like you have Trey Galloway and then it's kind of like a lot of question marks. So it might we might end up being in the same boat again this year where we're doing a lot of playing out of the post because that's where a lot of the talent seems to be. Yeah.

And I think, Mike, as you mentioned, I think Mike Woodson deserves a lot of credit for the job that he did last year because I agree with you that Zabre Johnson was a big loss, not just from an offensive perspective from, but from a defensive perspective. If you go watch the game last year against North Carolina and how impactful he was, just making Caleb Love and RJ Davis completely uncomfortable from the tip in that game. And then you watched Indiana

later in the season. They clearly went the same defensive team now. Obviously this year, I don't know what it's going to look like defensively without Trace because he was able to, with what he was able to do in the paint, blocking so many shots. That's kind of an equalizer, right? If you have a breakdown on the perimeter and you have somebody getting in the lane, you have Trace back there, then he can alter shots, he can block shots, he can just make things more difficult.

I don't know if that's going to be the kind of the same thing this year, but the other thing is just offensively last year. But if I'm Mike Woodson, I kind of would have done what he did was just put the ball in the hands of two guys that are now playing in the NBA, right? I mean, at Purdue you don't win unless you just give Jalen Hood Shaffino the ball and say go get 35, right? That that's why Indiana won that

game. There's plenty of other games where they weren't going to win unless Trace had a huge night they weren't going to, you know, it wasn't going to be anyone else but those two guys. So I think this season we get maybe do get to see more of. What he wants to do from a schematic perspective, because I don't necessarily think you have that go to bona fide superstar in the rush.

I mean there there's obviously guys with a lot of talent, but they're not maybe as as going to be as polished offensively as what we saw out of Trace and Jalen Hitchafina last year. Well, and the thing, the the thing with Trace Jackson Davis and and the Woodson connection that you know is really amazing to me. And again, just.

Looking at what Woodson did last year, you know you had trace two years under Archie and he kind of he honestly regressed a little bit of sophomore year when you look at the numbers and and he became a really limited player in those two years under Archie. And then you look at what Woodson was able to do in two years and if I'm if I'm Woodson, I'm selling this all over the place and talking about it, it's like trace it it you know his first year was was good under

Woodson but. Last year, you know, he became so much more, you know, efficient. But also like, like I said, he was running the offense and he started to pass and he started, you know, everybody's like, Oh my God, you got to take a bunch more threes. And I was kind of in that camp too. Like if you want to be an NBA player, you can't have this game. And I I still think he's going to have to get a bit of an outside shot, but. You you saw like his ability to to get assist.

He's getting triple double s and you know basically the offense was running through Trace Jackson Davis and he was bringing the ball. But he was a de facto guard for half of the half of the season and became like the, you know, the third most, you know statistical best player on Ken Palm. You know, was national player of the year candidate. And to me that all goes to both. It's both Trace and Woodson, like Woodson devising a game plan, getting him to work on those.

Those skills and kind of taking a guy who was really borderline not going to be drafted to, I mean he was drafted and now it's like you look at the Warriors and like, hey man, this guys, awesome. Like, I mean he's not you know there's even like little talk of like is this the Draymond Green replacement? And again, that's that's different, different podcasts for the NBA. But to me it's like that's that's a huge sell and that that's a huge sell for everybody on the team.

And I look at that and it's like all right, can Woodson do that with you know with where you know get his motor going, he do that with Renew this year. You know, it's like Woodson now kind of has that history of. I can take a guy and really add pieces to his game. So I guess I'm, I'm curious see who he does it, if he's able to do it again and who he does it

with this year. But that's that's the piece as we look back on Trace Jackson Davis that it's like his, the things that he added to his game his senior year, it's really, it was kind of small, but it was also big when you really looked at it. Well, I think the most important thing that he added, you kind of spoke to it a little bit at the end of what you just said. There was the motor, right?

He? Yeah, going back and watching him in high school, I remember watching him playing for Center Grove. He was obviously most games that I saw him. He was the most talented player on the quarter. When he's playing Romeo, he was probably the second most talented back in those days. But when he got to Indiana, he was a good player, but he wasn't a great player. And I think what Woodson kind of was able to instill in him was, all right, you're talented, you

can do all these things. But to make yourself a pro, to make yourself an all American, you're going to have to play a lot harder than what than what you have played in the past. And I think if you go back and watch the games last season and compare them to the earlier games in his career, he was running the floor harder. He was way more aggressive trying to block shots. Some of that was skiing because Archie kind of didn't want him going out of his area to try to

block shots. But on the on the glass I mean he was he had a he had a hand on pretty much any rebound that he wanted to try to go get. Those are kind of the subtle things that that show up over the course of the season and kind of make you a all American when it's all said and done. The talent was never a question. I do agree with you that he was much better as a passer last year out of the post and reading

situations. You're right he almost did have some some moments where you're like he has some guard skills here. Yeah, but I think the the you, you made a really interesting point there. Like can Mike Woodson unlock these things out of Cole Weir? Because Cole Weir was a what, a top seven player coming out of high school. He was a guy that people thought was going to be a lottery pick after year.

He goes to Oregon and Mike Woodson hasn't been shy about talking about like they called you lazy, they called you, you know, like you didn't want to work. If you're going to come here, you're going to have to do that. So let's see. It could be scary, right? If, if he does unlock that out of him because the talent has never been a question. I think Malik Renew I I thought last season had a pretty good year based on just kind of the

role that he was asked to play. You're a 5 star freshman. You're coming in behind Race Thompson and Trace Jackson, Davis. Those are guys that are obviously going to gobble up most of the minutes. He had a he had a problem staying on the floor due to foul trouble. But I think he's another guy that it looks like he's in better shape to me this year.

He's worked on his body. If he can just kind of ratchet up the intensity and play a little bit harder, you know, I just think that's it's kind of a cliche, but it's true. I mean the the margins are so thin sometimes with but these guys are all talented. They all have ability. It's being able to focus on the little details and being able to execute and and figure out you know how to get to your spots, how to be the guy down the court for an easy basket, how to chase

down a loose ball. Those are the kind of things that show up over the course of the season. And if those two guys in particular can buy into that, I think Indiana has a chance to have a really high ceiling as a

team. The the thing with where that I that makes me you know positive about this season and I always say it's in the offseason like and I'm I'm as guilty of it as anybody that you know you start doing like the pre you start looking at the season it's like it's very easy to just assume that everyone like in the old like you know you know the old NCAA Football games where it's like guys would go from you know a 78 to an 85. It's like, it's very easy to

assume that everyone's just going to have the the perfect offseason and it's like, well, this guy's going to get better and that guy's like. It just doesn't work that way. Like somebody's going to regress, somebody's not going to get better and somebody will get better and it's trying to figure that out, but not everyone's going to have the perfect

offseason. All of that said, you know, the two things that I'm positive or I'm excited for for this year is, as you said, the the kind of the question with where is is the motor. It's like he went to Oregon and it was kind of like, you know, like fish out of water didn't seem to to connect. His first ten games were pretty good, and then it seemed like he just kind of checked out, which

isn't awesome. But like, like we both said, like, I I think there's a part where I think Woodson's pushing him. But you know, it's funny, I remember in the the early years of Korean, it was all about, you know, we got to build an identity. We got to have seniors who can teach our freshmen. To me, it's like that there's no better senior that I want leading A-Team like this than Xavier Johnson, 'cause it's like the the if the problem is motor, it's like Xavier will solve

that. Like like Xavier is a guy you got to almost pull back a little bit. Like I don't see him. Telling where like all right man it's a couple days off like I think he's going to push where harder than anybody on this team.

So I feel good about that. The other thing you mentioned like Renew being a 5 star like this goes back to my thought about you know why I think we are in the right direction is you know as as IU fans we just haven't had a lot of like 5 star talent coming through here and unfortunately it's kind of like we'd have one it's like oh we got hotter parade it's like that didn't work. It's like we're getting kind of these like. Pseudo 5 stars there's no knock on the players. They're good.

But the Christian Lander and it's like you get one and then it's like you get like a Romeo Langford. He's good. But like not all five stars are created the same. You know the Eric Gordon's the Jalen Hood Shaffinos that they're kind of unique. But what I like that we're starting to do is like you're stacking multiple five stars on a team. So you have, you know, this team has Renew Ware and Embako.

Not all of them are going to be awesome, but like that's what makes Kentucky Kansas Duke good is like when you're getting four or five, five stars a a season. And again, we're looking at, you know, Liam Mcneely a couple next year. You know they're not all going to be awesome, but it's like there there's a better hit rate. Like if you start getting two and three on your team, one of them is going to be good.

And then you can deal with it. I think the problem that we've had over the years is like we just get one and it's like I really hope that this is the right one. And some years it's not, some years it is. So anyway a lot, a lot there to digest. But that that's what gets me excited is I think we're starting to stack talent on talent. And between the three of those guys, I think one of them will

pop this year. Yeah, I mean, the thing that made like Trace Jackson Davis unique is kind of like the five star, borderline 5 stars he stuck around four years, right? Yeah, typically going to see that with these guys. And so I think that with a guy like Malik Renew, I think he was like right on the range of, I think he was top 25, top 30. But he's not a guy that's going to bolt right away for the NBA.

It's just like his profile and how his game is and I think he could eventually be a pro, but it's going to take him some time to develop. Those are really kind of the guys I think you can kind of build a program with. And if you can get them to stick around, you know, Romeo Langford is great to get and Noah Vonleh is great to get.

But if they're just there for what, 9-10 months and then they're gone and they don't really help do anything in terms of winning, then they're quickly forgotten. I mean, I think people obviously remember those guys somewhat, but they're not going to be like lasting memories of IU basketball because they didn't really win anything and they were just there for one year. So I think with just, there's

the problem there. There's kind of like a bit of a problem with recruiting 5 stars from the standpoint of if that's what you're going to, that's like the primary component of your team is going to be like you better get them every year, right? Because a lot of them are going to be gone quickly. So that's why Kentucky and Duke and Kansas have been able to contain it because they been able to maintain it is because they can land those type of

players year in and year out. I think Woodson's done a pretty good job now every every year getting a couple of those guys. So if you can get those guys and then sprinkle it in with guys like Trey Galloway or find some portal guys that can really kind of bring everything together, I think that's where you can kind of see the consistency come from. The other thing I'll say about where is and this is just kind of a business perspective from him, right?

So he comes out of high school as this five star guy he's talked about as a potential lottery pick after one year, right? So NBA scouts are are watching him and he goes to Oregon and he has this up and down year. They're still the flashes of talent. Who knows if he would have declared for the draft, maybe a team would have taken a chance on him in the second round. But he's he's probably thinking to himself, I can do better than this. I'm going to go somewhere else

and try to boost my stock. So this is really, I feel like it like if he wants to be a first round pick or a lottery pick, like this is his year to do it. Because once you're in college for more than two or three years, the NBA kind of starts to put you down the list, right? Because there's an 18 or 19 year old kid that they can draft and say I've got this guy, he's a year younger, I can get him in my system, I can develop them the way I want want.

And there's just not a lot of examples of guys who stay in college for three years and are a high draft pick. I mean there's some but so I I think for him like if he's not motivated to come in this year and be like the best version of himself that he can be and kind of because it make no mistake about it he's in. I mean a lot of these guys their their their dream is to get to the NBA right.

This is his opportunity. I've his best opportunity to kind of rebuild his stock and be that player that a lot of people thought he could be out of high school. So it's kind of a make or break year for him in terms of the

NBA. Not saying that he couldn't make it if he has to stay in college for multiple years, but I think if he wants to be a lottery pick or a first round pick, this is his chance to do it. So we'll see how, how motivated he is to take Mike Woodson's advice to heart and realize like, you can't just float around that out there and show up for for games when you want to or, you know, play hard when you want to. I mean, it's got to be a consistent thing because, I mean, there's what 60 guys

picked a year we just saw with Romeo Langford. I thought coming out of high school he was one of the most polished scorers that I had seen watching high school basketball. And I've been going to games in southern Indiana since the early 90s. I've seen a lot of good players, a lot of Division One players. I've seen pros at different EYBL events. He was one of the better pure scores that that I've seen. He's basically out of the NBA at this point. I mean, he just got cut by Utah

because he didn't. I mean he never really distinguished himself in terms of just having one or two things that he did really well consistently on a night in, night out basis on the NBA court. So clearly there's got to figure out what he's going to do night in and night out that's at an elite level and he's got to do it consistently or he's, I mean, his chance to be, I think what he, what he desired to be out of high school is going to be very limited. I think that's a fantastic

point. I would, I would add on this if anybody's interested. This was a couple weeks ago on the Bill Simmons Podcast. He had Austin Rivers on. And it was one of the most interesting discussions I've heard. And and Rivers talked about me very quick because it's nothing to do with IU.

But Rivers talked about, Rivers talked about how, you know, he went from basically being a stud in high school, like #1 player in Duke. And he's like within 18 months I was on the bench in New Orleans and like he, he got drafted in the same class as Anthony Davis. And he's like, normally when you're a lottery pick, you come in, they get the red carpet. He's like, that was Anthony Davis. I was still a lottery pick, but it's like.

I was second tier and then like that offseason he got injured and I think that offseason they they they get Drew Holiday and they get I think Eric Gordon. They got somebody else. Suddenly he's like he's the third, the third guard on a team. He's like, I'm suddenly a role player and now he's like, I'm just a role player and it's like now and he's he's like, it was a really interesting discussion but to your point on the Romeo like it goes quick.

Like you get to the NBA goes quick and I think your point on where is is spot on and I think that's something.

To look at this year because I think you're 100% right like if he comes out and if you're aware like that you look at this it's like hey man you're going to play against like they they just had the the the preseason all American team like Hunter Dickinson's on there Zach Edie's on there obviously like if you're aware you're A7 footer you're playing against two of the top guys in the on the all American team you're going to

get three shots at them. If you go out there and you average you know, 17 points a game and you put up big games against those guys and you, you lead Indiana, it's like a top three Big 10 finish or something like dude, you're a lottery pick. Like Congrats, you got it. And to your. Point if you come out and kind of zone in and out and you you score 7-8 points a game, it's it's not over. Nothing is over. But you are right When you look at the NBA, it's funny.

Like I talked to friends who are not huge NBA fans. I like the NBA a lot. Like trying to explain to them it's like, yes, Trace Jackson Davis is a right now, you know, last year was a better basketball player than Jalen Hood Chaffino. Like, no question. Jalen Chaffino is definitely a lottery pick, and Trace was barely drafted. It's like it has nothing so little to do with what you are as a player. It has to do with, like, potential.

It has to do with when your next contract is like, that's a problem Trace is going to run into, is like his next contract he's going to be 2728. Like Jalen will be 23. It's like there's so many other factors, like age is such a big piece and most of these teams in the NBA look at it. It's like, all right if you have one elite skill. We can figure the rest out. If we get you under our tutelage for two or three years, like we can add those things.

But you're right. If you're if you're Khalil Ware and you're now 21 or 22 and you've been in college three years, if he didn't get drafted this year, you're going next year. It's like teams are like, all right man, like, well, that's he is what he is and now it's too late to add it. And even if we did add it, he'd be 27 by the time he's good and we'll be done. So I I think that's a a super interest, a great point.

Because it's like, if you're aware, it kind of has to happen this year if you want to be a lottery pick, Yeah. And you also have to look at it from the players perspective. From a lot of these guys, they're used to being the man, right? They've been told since their 7th and 8th grade or through high school, depending on when they developed and became a national recruit. Like they they think they're going to the NBA to be Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown or Giannis or Jokic.

The reality is there's fifty or sixty players in the NBA that are what, superstar level talent, maybe less if you even really drill it down to the guys that you get a Max contract. I know that the money is going everywhere now, but the guys who are actually going to make it like This is why I think Trace Jackson Davis has a chance to have a long NBA career because he's on a team in a situation where he he's just going to have to play a role to the best of his ability.

He's it's not going to be what he was in Indiana. They're not going to be throwing the ball into the post to him. He's going to need to run back on defense as hard as he can, block shots, finish lobs when he gets them and play hard like that. Like if he can do those things with his size and size likeability, he's going to make a lot of money over the long, long haul. The guys that don't make it are the ones that aren't able to

see. Like I'm just a role player now and I and I I got to do one or two things. Like Duncan Robinson is a great example. When he we watched him at Michigan, he transferred from the Division Two level. Nobody thought Duncan Robinson was going to be getting a huge NBA contract, but what can he do in an elite level? He can shoot right So he's parlayed that into probably over making over $100 million in the NBAI mean that's he's not a superstar.

He's not a household name. So just with all these guys I think that the the hardest like every draft class there's going to be like one or two three guys that turn into All Star level superstar level. The rest is about figuring out where you fit on a roster and being able to, whether it's bring energy off the bench, whether it's being able to defend. OG is a great example. He's not an All Star lower player, but he's gonna make a ton of money because he's a defensive stopper.

I mean, he's one of the 10 or 15 best defenders in the NBA. He's probably not gonna be an All Star or a guy that he's a household name among basketball fans, but he's going to make hundreds of millions of dollars because he can go out there and play defense to a really good level.

Right. Although he's like he's like a trade all *. Too but like he's a trade Hall of Famer like O GS been traded for LeBron 30 times like O GS in every single trade Anyway we are we are off the off the cycle here before before we talk about the the season kind of you know projections and stuff. The other thing I want to talk about, just as a program that's changing, that I really like is,

you know. And again not trying to just blow praise on Woodson. There was times last year I was very concerned but I really like that he's come in with this ethos of like hey man we are going to be we're going to play for a title like we're not maybe we don't get there but like we're going to treat this program as if and and it's

something. So the scheduling is what I want to talk about is that you know this is again you see us and we we we've entered into Atlantis for next year, but this year you know we're playing in. The the New York game we're playing Auburn. You know obviously we have the home and home against Kansas. We got the Kentucky series back.

To me, this is, this is something that has bothered me for the longest time since we've been both doing this this pod, you know podcasting and inside the hall is you know, I I I think back to you know Galen did a couple of podcasts where he recap like old Bob Knight seasons on AI forget the name of the other podcast but. Like you go back and look at like the 92 Indiana season and it's like the non conference is

ridiculous. Like we're playing just everybody and everyone's ranked and it really has bothered me over the last 15 years. First off it's bad business because it doesn't get fans excited playing bad games. It also doesn't help when you're playing you know the cream sub 300 worst teams. It really always seemed to hurt us trying to get in the tournament, but it always bothered me when we didn't act as if in the sense that it's like, hey, we're going to be a big time program.

It it's like it's infuriating to me the Michigan State and rightfully so just kind of grab that mantle of like hey this this game that happens in Indy every year with Kansas, Kentucky. It's like we're just going to be the big 10 team for that and it's like that should be us but we're not and we're not scheduling it and like we're not playing in pre season we've never played Atlantis. The fact that we're doing bringing this back in. I I think it's a really good thing.

I think it's better for the program. I think it's better for recruiting. I think it's better for fan engagement, but I'm just, I I love the ethos of like hey, we're going to play a really tough schedule. We're going to play really you know, high level teams and we're going to put ourselves back in the in the discussion and you know, we didn't. The thing that I think sometimes is hard for fans to understand,

myself included. But it's like last year we lost to Arizona, we lost to Kansas. It didn't affect us like I mean it did. Wins are great, but it's like it's not like we were still a protected seed in the tournament. You know, this year we could lose to UConn, we could lose to Auburn, we can lose to Kansas. We could still be a five seed in the tournament. Like good games against good teams don't. Losses don't hurt you. At some point you need to start

winning those games. But I just, I love that we are starting to schedule as if we are one of the premier teams in the Big 10 and in the country. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things with Woodson from the scheduling perspective. First off, he's never going to be a guy that. Beats around the Bush when he talks about expectation. He came in from the beginning talking about national championships and Big 10 championships.

That tells me he understands the fan base and what the expectation is. He's not afraid to to speak what everybody's thinking. If you would have come in and said, hey, I just want to get in the top half of the Big 10 and I maybe want to make the tournament every other year, let's beat Rutgers once, That's. That's not what Indiana fans want to hear. So he understands the audience, like Indiana fans, to their credit, are. Some of the, you know, the most knowledgeable fans in college

basketball, they're not stupid. So their expectations, whether they're too high or not, is a completely separate debate. But at least come out and say this is what I aspire to do, and then back it up by playing a schedule that, you know, backs that up. He's done that, to his credit. So I also think it. He's just where he is in his career. I mean he's coached for so long. He's, you know he's been with the Knicks. He's been in the NBA so long. Like this is his one chance to

coach a college program. He's not there's not going to be like a slow build to do like he's going to go in full tilt and say this is what we're going to do. You know, you're completely right. Last season they they got blown out by what Kansas and Arizona. It didn't affect anything. I think it made him better in the long run. It was helpful.

I mean it's it's it obviously doesn't hurt your resume some of and I. Speaking specifically about past Indiana coaches, but just in general, like there's a lot of coaches that want to schedule seven or eight wins every season because that's how they continue to keep their job, right? I mean, it's job security, right?

Because if you figure you can, the math is if you can get seven or eight non conference wins and then you can go 500 in your league or you know, maybe go a little bit over 500, make the tournament like you're going to continue to keep your job. It's it's like almost coaching. To not get fired rather than coaching, like move the program forward. And so, I mean, you talk about Bob Knight.

Well, by the early 90s, what Bob Knight, he was as secure as any coach in the country, had won three national championships. He could schedule whatever if he would have told the fans that we need to schedule 8 cupcakes. Because this is what I need. To to make this team its best. Oh, yeah. Yes, Yes, Sir. Coach will be there to focus

somebody else. Or if he would have said we need to schedule 10 top 25 opponents and he would have lost half of them and it would have said this is kind of the process of building the team, that people would have nodded their head yes. Same thing with Tom Izzo. He's won a national championship at Michigan State. He has a long track record of winning games and building programs, making teams better over the course of the season.

So he can do that. I just find it refreshing that Mike Woodson is like telling people. What he actually aspires to do rather than trying to like, you know, give us some kind of, you know, I don't know, maybe the right, the right way to put it, but just kind of trying to obscure the fact that, you know, he wants to to win at a high level and try to maybe ease his way into things. I think it's refreshing that that he's willing to schedule this way. And I agree with you, I mean.

I don't obviously buy season tickets because I have a media credential, but I hear from I heard from plenty of season ticket holders in the Green era and different you know, like we're OK, we're paying for all of these non conference games and maybe we get one good non conference game and it it was maybe the ACC or Big 10 challenge or the Gavic games that we had to play and OK, now I'm paying for eight games against sub 300 teams or sub 200 teams.

Nobody wants to watch that. I mean after a while too from a. From a podcasting perspective and the media perspective, how how do you keep talking about the same game over and over through November and December? So like for this season, from mid November on, it's pretty intriguing, right? The rest of the way there's that, there's the games in New York, there's the early Big 10 games in December, which I think of kind of helped generate more interest early in the season.

Then you've got the the mid November or mid-december games against Auburn and Kansas and then right into Big 10. So there's really no. You know, let's let's dip our toes in and and see what we are as a team anymore. With Indiana Basketball, it's we'll play maybe a couple warm up games and then let's get to it. It was fun for one or two years, but I mean GAIL and I have both been hammering on this for years.

It's like this. This was the problem with the Crossroads Classic. It's like it came right in that area when everyone's scheduling. It's like the Crossroads Classic was a regional tournament for kind of mid level Indiana teams. It's like we we elevated that by being in it, but we were in it way too long. It's like if we want to be a national, a national power, we got to stop playing Notre Dame every two years. So I'm, I'm happy we're out of

that. I also think, you know, this is, I'm just kind of going back and looking like the 2014 season, just a a random year where it's like that's when Cream should have had things rocking and rolling and it's like we don't play anybody in the top 15 in the preseason. You know, like a best team that year was Syracuse. We lost on the road and it's like I think that was an ACC Big 10 that was a contractor. That wasn't a game That wasn't. That's what I'm saying. That wasn't a game they

scheduled, right? And it was and you look like. What's in Kansas? He's scheduled Arizona. He's scheduled Auburn. Like, these aren't games that the Big 10 is saying you have to play well. And again, it's it's nothing to do with what Scott does, but it's like last year I went to Vegas, I was excited to do that. I'm going to New York this year and I think a lot of, you know, I was in Vegas last year and that was like 80% Indiana fans.

Like there's a ton of IU fans that I remember thinking like this is awesome. And it also like this is this should be concerning if you're an Arizona fan because no question Arizona's been a better program for 15 years. It's a 45 minute flight. Like, there's no reason we should have 80% fans in the stadium, but we do. And it, you know, in an era where fan engagement is going to be more important, you know with nil and like you just you need to get the fan base more fired up.

You know, this is it. It's such a breath of fresh air that we're doing this, that we're getting in these tournaments. People are already, I know, friends who were already fired up to go to Atlantis. And again at some point you have to start winning these. But I do think this is all good. It's better for the team.

I love the Auburn games. I think that's in the that's in the Georgia Dome. But this is my buddy Robert who's a Michigan State fan who has had way more success than I have in the last couple of years. But his his big thing which I kind of agree with is always like he loves when Michigan State plays in one of those games in a football stadium at some point during the year which they they Michigan State plays they play in aircraft carriers

they play on the moon. They play underwater like they play everywhere. But his thing is like that that gets you ready for Elite Eight games. It's like they're going to be in big arenas. Like you get at least A and it's like we're we're following that road map, which I like, but I just, I look at this compared to the one time I'll mention football. It's just like, you know the the football program seems to be doing everything to antagonize the fan base and not get kind of

team support and NIL support. It does feel like in basketball you're you're creating all these opportunities where you can go to events and you can go to games and you're playing high level opponents. You're playing North Carolina at home. You're playing Kansas at home.

You know it's like this this is this is what's going to keep the fan base engaged and you know help with that NIL dollar thing and and it's I it's to me it's the biggest kind of hidden secret that Indiana has that I think outside of you and me and other fans don't fully know is like we have one of the largest alumni bases in the in the world or in the US they're very engaged in sports and for the longest time there really hasn't

been outside of the varsity club a way for those fans to kind of engage with the team financially. And it's like it's there now and you know I I think with nil we're going to have a real opportunity to be a bigger powerhouse. But you the team has to kind of provide that. I I feel like they're doing that with the scheduling, giving all these opportunities to go to

games, have fun experiences. And it's like those create fans that want to provide more to the team, which is what you need with Nil World. So anyway, let's talk about this year's team. God, we're going like an hour. I mean, so give me like what are your expectations? Yeah. What are your expectations for for this year's like for this year's team, I'll kind of leave it open-ended. Don't don't give me, like, you don't need to give me like where we're going to finish, who's

going to be the starters. But just kind of at a high level, like what are you, what are you looking for, excited to see with this year's team? Well, I. Was asked to vote in the the athletics pre season media poll for the Big 10, which the Big 10 doesn't do its own pre season media poll. I don't necessarily understand why they couldn't just send out a survey and have people vote on it, but maybe they don't want her feelings among certain school. Yeah, I don't know exactly what.

They're an amateur organization, Alex. They're they're not a big they're only making 200 million a year in TV money. They can't do that. You're too busy investigating Michigan football, right? And we'll do nothing about it like that's there's anyway. Sorry. So Brendan Quinn of The Athletic and Adam Jardi of The Columbus Dispatch send this thing out every year and they ask us for our full order finish one through 14. I picked Indiana 7th.

I think it was Zach was the other person from Indiana beat that voted. I think he had him six. So we were kind of in that same. Same neighborhood there. So you know, I picked them 7th. Do I feel like going into the season they can finish higher than that? I I think the ceiling's probably 3 or 4. To me, that's what it feels like. But I also feel like there's a scenario where they they can finish lower than that if some things don't go right.

And who knows exactly how things are going to because I really looked at it from some of these teams. Besides Minnesota, who I believe got drilled in like a early secret scrimmage against Colorado State by something like 30 something, it was like it was, it was like ugly. So you don't really see that like the in in in those close scrimmages teams getting beat that bad. So that kind of hurt me up a little bit and said man they're they might be as bad as people think they're going to be.

But beyond that I just don't really look at any of the team. I mean maybe Penn State you you look at them and and say. They're going to have some struggles, but they did bring in a lot of transfers and some good players. I I I see it being another year in the Big 10 where the middle just kind of, you know, slugs it out and beats each other up.

And there's going to be a lot of teams that are 8:00 and 12:00 and 9:00 and 11:00 and 10:00 and 10:00 and you know, whatever the the the messy middle, whatever we want to call it, that's how it's going to. I think Indiana is going to be involved in that because, you know. What we've seen so far under Mike Woodson, while he has been able to win some Rd. games, it's been still pretty difficult to win away from home. And you know, you know, best

case scenario, I think you win three or four big 10 Rd. games in a year if you're having a really good season. So that really puts a ton of pressure on you to to protect homecourt. And the other thing is just the guard depth. I have serious questions. I mean, I was writing a player profile this morning for the site about Anthony Leal and I'm thinking to myself. Is Anthony Leal actually going to have to play this season?

Because, you know, not not to joke because I've kind of, it's kind of befuddled me a little bit why he hasn't gotten more of an opportunity the last couple of years. When I I saw him in high school, he could make threes and he played a little bit Archie's first year and then like the last two years, it's been like almost an afterthought to even put him in the game. But then I look at the guard depth and I'm like, OK, Saber Johnson, Trey Galloway, That's

pretty good. And then behind there is. Gabe Cups, a freshman Jakai Newton who we nobody thinks is going to play because he's injured and CJ Gunn, so Anthony Leo might you know get so some some some minutes. So the back court to me is a little bit of a question mark as is the front court to an extent with you know we'll see what happens with where. I think he's got a ton of

potential. I think if he plays to his capability, I think you could see an Indiana finish, you know third or fourth of the Big 10. I think if he doesn't then you're putting a lot of pressure on. Somebody like Malik Renew and Mackenzie and Baco to provide a

lot of square. I mean they you know I I said to Xavier Johnson at media day you know I think you guys lost like 7075% of your scoring from my She just kind of looked at me like wow man you have to put it out there like that but it's the truth. So you wonder you wonder where the scoring is going to come from. I I do think was Xavier Johnson back in the line up the the defense on the perimeter I you know I think is going to be

better but I I'm. I'm entering the season with the expectation that this is a tournament team that's going to be in the middle of the of the pack in the Big 10 in terms of, you know, somewhere from, you know, I had him 7th, but I could see anywhere, you know, from from 3:00 to 9:00 or 10:00 depending on how things shake out. And you know, Mike Woodson's talked a lot about wanting to win Big 10 championships, but this year I I kind of see.

Purdue and Michigan State as a cut above the rest of the field in the league and it you know Purdue was last year and Indiana beat them twice. But look at the overall body of work what they were able to do in the regular season.

They were really good team and they they bring everybody back in. Michigan State just has so much guard depth and you know with Izzo you don't really want to bet against him and I thought I think they brought in some exciting young players too that'll that'll fit well. I think it'll be a team, maybe take some a little bit longer to figure it out than Purdue because I think Purdue's just

going to step onto the cord and. Have most of their team back and they've got Edie who's going to just be able to the bully people from day one. So, but Indiana's right there in the mix that there's a lot of Big 10 teams that kind of in that same category as Indiana where they they have some, they have some key returning pieces. They have some new pieces that are going to have to be acclimated to the system.

But I think this is probably going to be another year where the Big 10 gets you know, 88 teams in the in the big dance. I agree with all that. I mean I think no question Purdue and Michigan State are cut above and I I agree with that kind of the messy middle theory. And it's like, what's funny is the difference between 3rd and 9th in the Big 10 this year could be two games like you could be looking at. One or two games.

So it's like, you know, for people to be like, Oh my God, we got to, you know, you got to finish top five. It's like well, that could be the difference in like, you know, a a Boo Booey Bank shot at the end of a game where it's like you go from 4th to 9th and it's like that that's what you're basing everything off of. I I look at this year, I, there's two things kind of at odds here is that I think based on this team, based on the how young this team is and the

growth is going to happen. I do. And and based on the scheduling which we just talked about is good the negative size. I do think this team will be better at the end of the year than the beginning of the year. I do worry about them digging a little bit of a hole just as they learn and as they figure out how to play together.

Where it's at odds is when you look at the lat, you know, the first two years of the Woodson era in 2022, you know that team finished two and seven down the stretch. It wasn't, it wasn't until basically the second-half of I think that Illinois game or the Michigan game in the Big 10 tournament where they figured things out and kind of got going. Even last year they finished three and three, their win, one lose, one the kind of the finish the year, you know, win, lose, win, lose.

That's kind of how it went in the Big 10 tournament and it went in the major in the NCAA tournament. So it you know it's only a small sample size that the team is basically totally different. But you know when you when you just look at historical records, Woodson doesn't have a doesn't have that season where it's like you know they start the the Izzo kind of thing where it's like they start slow but they figure it out as the Big 10 goes on. It's been kind of the opposite.

That said, I think the way this team is constructed, I think it's going to be better as a season goes on. And I I mentioned this when we looked at the schedule to start, I think there's a stretch that fans need to highlight in on. It starts on on January 27th. We're playing at Illinois with the from there till February 21st.

So basically at a month we're at Illinois, home to home to Iowa, home to Penn State, at Ohio State home or a way to at Purdue, home to Northwestern, home to Nebraska. And so you have the road games in that period are Ohio State, Purdue and Illinois all within like a 2 1/2 hour range and then all the rest are home games. So basically for a month you are really basically home. I I know there's three Rd. games, but it's like, you know, Rutgers is not Purdue.

And so I look at that as like that could be a time where the team really coalesces. Maybe you lose at Purdue, but you could go like six or seven in that period because you basically have a one month home stand with some pretty short Rd. trips. I look at that as like that's a time where I could see this team coalescing, coming together and

making a run. And then honestly the rest of the season, you know you're you're at Penn State, home to Wisconsin, at Maryland, at Minnesota, who's off like you said, he finished at home to Michigan State. You could finish that stretch 5:00 and 1:00. So I look at that as like that could be the time when this team pulls it together and and kind of changes the narrative.

But I definitely think, you know, I think this team is going to be better and different in February and March than what we see, you know against Kansas or against Connecticut in in November. Yeah, I think a lot of it's going to come down to just how some of the lesser known quantities on the team kind of develop as the season goes along. Like ACJ gun, right?

Like it's important for. Indiana to have some every year we, I feel like every season we talk about, well, this is one of the deepest Indiana teams that I've seen. It's my favorite joke and you get to February and it's like we got no one to play. There's like seven or eight players that play at that point, right?

Yeah, I I don't necessarily disagree with that tactic because I'm I'm kind of the the mindset is like identify your eight best players and play them the most as you can and and let everything else figure itself out. But in this case. Yeah, I just think with the guard situation, you have to have somebody else that develops behind the two starters because you don't want to play in your guards 36 minutes a night because by the end of the season

they'll be worn out. And that that's that's a good way to to not have a strong finish to the season. So I mean, I agree with you that there's probably going to be some bumps in the road here early in the season. I'm playing UConn in New in New York early this early in the season. We'll see how that goes.

That's a game where I feel like Indiana's going to be, you know, an underdog going in. But if they come out and are super competitive and and get put up a fight there and have a chance to to win that game, I think that would be a notable moment early in the season. The other thing that has me a little bit concerned and I know it's not a trend because it's

only happened two seasons. But you know I'm a big Ken Palm guy and I I like to look at the numbers and I I don't know if you are, but I know Galen is And you look at where India has been ranked in the preseason the last two seasons under Woodson. I believe they finished eighteen spots lower than what they were ranked in the preseason last two years. And so I looked at this year's preseason ranking their 49 and Ken Palm, if that trend continues that would not be a

good season finishing. So this like this has got to be the year where they kind of outperform the expectation of of what what are projected to do on Ken Palm. And obviously a lot of that, a lot of of that of what's baked in is who you have coming back and you know what kind of what he's able to pull from a numbers perspective on the guys that they brought in the transfer portal and figuring out

freshmen. But you know I think this season Indiana to to Demon to success, they need to to finish. Obviously I don't want to say top half because as you mentioned, you know, you could finish it could be teams 4th through 9th could have the same record of it. It's a tiebreaker on the last day of the regular season. But be in that mix in the middle of the Big 10 at at minimum and

get back to the tournament. And I think at that point you say, wow, we've we've made the tournament three years in a row. I mean once you get to the tournament, right, it's all about match ups and what happened, you know, any team. Can we start with Miami? Last year, I mean Indiana ran into the wrong team in Albany, NY because that Miami team was you know poised to go on a run. They made the final four.

They they knocked off. It wasn't just that they beat Indiana. They then they then they went and they beat Houston next, right. They beat other good teams on the run. You just keep putting yourself in position to be that team and eventually you're going to breakthrough. But you know if that was the problem, I think going back to you know, with Cream and not to, we don't want to get back to

that. But it was like, all right, he had these good years and then he followed up with not being in a tournament. So that was the problem where I think with Woodson, he's got a chance now. You come out, you come in and you make the tournament three straight years. I think that's a pretty strong statement. No, I I I agree and I've I've made that point before that you know and.

Obviously at some point you know you're you're going to have to breakthrough and make a Sweet 16 and you know at some point we we'd like to make a final four again. I feel like that's something you and I would all I'd I'd love to podcast about a Final four. I know you'd love to talk about it inside the hall. I never thought we would be having this kind of drought. That said, you know, I've made this point that, you know, last year to me it's like it was a

successful year. Like you, you were a protected seed in the tournament and. You know, bad. I don't want to say bad luck happens. Like you can't just always chalk it up. But it's like sometimes you just get you meet the wrong team at the wrong time and it's like Miami was that wrong team. You know, when you go back to the the Final Four run of 2002, it's like part of what happened that year and I'm always talking my memory, I think, I think we were the five seed.

And the four seed in that bracket was USC, if memory serves right. And they got bounced in the first round and it's like. I'm not saying like you got to have luck to get there, but it it it helps. But it's like it's like poker. It's like you're at the table enough, you have enough hands, you have the best hand, you're going to start winning some of those. And that's been our troubles. We haven't been in protected seed enough times to to be in a good spot.

We're either not in the tournament, as you said, or we're like in that 910, you know, playing spot where it's like that's death, where it's like you're you're more than likely going to play against A1 or A2 seed and you're going to get thumped. So I I completely agree. It's like that's to me that's the goal this year is you've got to get back in the tournament. It would be great if you were in

that. I know I just said it's bad like in that 678 range and then let the chips fall where they may and then let's get back to protected seed territory the year after. Real quick shameless plug. You mentioned the the Ken Palm stuff, yes, big into Ken Palm, love it. I will say we are on sub stack. You know if you find a way and you want to support Crimson Cast, if sub Stack is free, join us.

We we send it out there. But we do have a premium section and Galen and I provide premium videos every week for our premium subscribers. I will just say that Galen did his, I just got it this morning. He did a 10 minute recap on Indiana and Ken Palm and kind of some of the reasons why we may be 49th in Ken Palm, just kind of breaking it down, but you're

right, it's not great. That said, I'm kind of stealing from Galen's post, but you know, it's Ken Palm is based and I'm not speaking to you, but Ken Palm is based on predictive statistics, so much pulled from last year and there's just so many question marks where it's like we all know Xavier Johnson's going to give you, you know, 13-6 and three, but Ken Palm actually doesn't because he doesn't have much of A resume from last year and Ken Palm doesn't go back 3-4 years.

So it's like Xavier Johnson's kind of a zero in Ken Palm numbers. You know where didn't have much there and BACO is a freshman like there's just not a lot of production from Ken Palm to pull from. I will say it you know another good site is Bart Torvick which is kind of found a way to meld that really you know some of that predictive stuff a little bit better. They have us 35th which I feel is a little more where we should

be, but I'm with you. You know Ken Palm will start to figure itself out by Game 10 or 11. But I'm I'm with you on that that if we're you know ranked 49th, 50th in the country if we're 9:00 and 11:00 that's not great but it's still that should still get you in the tournament like that's what's funny is you top 25 kind of matters but it's like that's just a protected seed.

Like if you're ranked 50th in the country you're probably still going to be a six or a seven seed in the tournament which is where I think we need to be in. But yeah I I think that's been the problem is we just have so many years where we're not in there and doing it and honestly like. The floor of Indiana, if we're where we want to be and we're going to be acting as if the floor has got to be making the tournament.

Like you look at North Carolina, you look at Michigan State N maybe not a great example last year but like Michigan State you know. But these teams that just have these runs of like we've made the tournament, you know, 1520 years in a row or 20 out of 21. It's like Indiana's like at this you know we made it 5 of 11. It's like it's just not good enough. We've got it. The floor has got to be making the tournament every year.

Yeah, I mean the other thing that you I don't have it pulled up right in front of me, but if you go look at like the Ken Palm rankings like by program for each school since that, I think it goes back to what 199798. You look at the Big 10 schools. I mean, I think, I think Indiana is middle of the pack when you when you look at where where they are in that time frame and that kind of jives with the date of what we know.

India has made one Final Four in the Ken Palm era and that you know they've had some obviously some seasons where they've won the Big 10 but don't have a lot of tournament success to really fall back on. And the only way you have more tournament success is just keep getting there and and seeing what seeing what happened. I mean the tournament is so unpredictable. So I mean like going back to that year that Indiana made it, would you say like that they

beat Duke, right. Does that mean Duke had a terrible season? No. They just ran into the wrong team at the wrong time right when they ran into Indiana in 2002 at Rupp Arena that it was, it was a bad night. It wasn't. I wasn't really taking anything away from Duke season. I mean, Virginia a couple years ago, loses to AA16 seed, then comes back next year, wins the national championship.

So it's just. Yeah, and I, you played two double digit seeds to get to the Final Four and it's like, no one is like, well that sucked. It's like that was a Final Four run. Like it is what it is. Yeah, exactly. So you know I I tend to put more value on I I know ultimately you're judged on what you do in

the tournament. But if if you're not, I think and it's more reasonable to to kind of just judge the program and its trajectory more on what they've done in the the regular season and if they're able to continue just to make the tournament after after you get there, I think it's largely A largely A crapshoot as to what happens at that point. You mentioned Ken Palm, I'll end on this.

Just I'm I'm sure you've done this, but if you're if you're a fan out there and you you kind of poked around on Ken Palm a little bit. It is. Galen found this first couple years ago, but if you go to the Texas Tech page and then you click on Bob Knight you can actually get Ken palm stats pre Ken Palm era for Indiana. So you can look at like yeah like I'm looking at 9. It goes back to 97 for Bob Knight and it's actually kind of wild looking at some of the stats like we were.

He was top 20 in adjusted offense in 979899 and 2000 and honestly like sub 50. Like above 50 in defense. That 2000 team was like 15th in offense, 28th in defense. Like the numbers on on night were kind of wild. Like I didn't realize how good his adjusted offense was in the late 90s. But just you, you can't dig in

deeper. But it's like you can get this statistical line of Indiana back to 97 in Ken Palm just by going through Bob Knight. So the defense wasn't good is what you're saying those last couple years, right? Well, it wasn't good in 9798, but then it got, you know, it was 53rd and 99 and then 2000 that team was like the the tempo was was getting faster, but that team was 15th in offense and

28th in in defense. Yeah, I'd love to see like the 1976 and you know some of those teams in the 80s, early 90s teams like to see the 92 team, what their Ken Palm numbers would have. Been I know Ken Palm if you're listening. Ken, if you're listening like I would pay an extra 10 bucks a year just to have like historical Ken bomb data. Like it's. I think the problem is probably for him. He probably has a hard time finding all of the yeah, the box scores and all the data from so far back.

I'm sure it's available. It's probably expensive too, to put all that in somehow, so maybe that's something that'll be. On the No, it's fair. You go back and look, it's hard to find box scores, even from the early 90s of games. It's such a different landscape. That's one reason why it's so great. Galen puts all those old games on YouTube, so you can actually go back and see some of those. I know. Well, that's how. How else would you ever see that? Stuff.

I know he has all that stuff, and that's how he and I kind of. Really bonded as he was one of the few other people when I was at IU that I met. And it's like he had tapes of games with Don Fisher over it on radio. And I'm like, dude, I used to do that. Like I would turn off the audio and put on Fisher and it's like it's wild that like I found someone else who did that. And yeah, he had all those tapes. Yeah, I know it's it's cool that he's put.

If you're not on, check out Galen's YouTube channel. He has a bunch of old games. He's throwing them on there. And you know, I know we've mentioned this in one of the

other pods, but it's like. For for the younger listeners out there who are pissed about having to sign up for Peacock, it's like just there was a world where it's like games were on Ray, Com and Raytheon and it's like it was Channel 4 and you didn't get it. And if you didn't live in Bloomington, you were kind of Sol and watching IU games.

Yeah, I mean at least, I know it's annoying a little bit to have to pay a little bit extra, but I mean 5 bucks a month or whatever it is, it's drop in the bucket. Just cut back on your Pumpkin Spice Lattes from Starbucks and your your Peacocks paid for. Dare you. Or you can be an IndyCar fan like me, and you already pay for it. Oh, is that what? What else is? What else is on there? Is it like it's just sports wise? Big 10, right? Big 10 football.

Big 10 basketball. Big 10 football, Big 10 basketball, I think Premier League, right, is on there. I'm not a Premier League fan, but I'm a IndyCar fan. And so a lot of the races are on there and a lot of them are already on NBC, but you can get like recaps the races. And so I was already part of Peacock and then, you know, like Brooklyn 9/9 and The Office and all the all the NBC shows, obviously. Yeah, good. Good stuff. All right Alex. Well, hey it's this has been great.

Let's, let's have you on again at the end of the year hopefully we're we're previewing. A tournament maybe we're previewing a couple of Big Ten wins and yeah it's it's it's going to be an interesting season. There's just there's a high level of variance. It could be one or two games. But I think like, I like I started this whole pod. I I feel very positive about the direction we're going. Things still need to happen and

things still need to be done. But I I think we are definitely in the right going the right direction. But I think this year is going to be an an important stepping stone where if we want to get there, you know, you still need probably one or two more recruits. You've got to hit the portal hard again at the end of the year. But this season has to be a year where even though it's a growing year, it can't be no knock on

that year. But like the the Noah Vonle year, the year after we lost to Syracuse where it's just like the the kind of like you're like wow, the wheels are falling off. You're like we can't. Have that again because we didn't have the same highs like last year was good, but it wasn't. We weren't ranked number one. We didn't, you know, honestly do anything. We just kind of made progressive steps and I think you you have to make that next step this year, agree Scott.

It's always fun to talk IU basketball with you. You can expect Adm or an e-mail at some point too. We're going to have to do a home and home here. You have to come on podcast on the Brinks. I'd love to. I'd be happy to, Yeah. Anytime. I appreciate it. We'll do that here sometime in the in the near future maybe after a couple games we have some some basketball to actually discuss. But thanks for having me on.

It's always as I said ton of respect for for you and Galen what you've been able to do with the podcast and always enjoy listening to your opinions in the show and and like I said thanks again for having me on. You're welcome. I I will end with this. Do you have any I I promised I wouldn't talk about it but do you have any football comments you want to make? You're you're primarily basketball site which was smart. You never made the football tab

which was a very smart idea. But as an IU fan, oh God, you're like rubbing your temples here. You're already going to happy, I can remember. This to say, whatever you want on football. I can remember when Kevin Wilson was hired, somebody asked me, are you going to get into football? Are you going to start covering football? And I said no. And smart. I've I've stuck to that for what, 16 / 16 years now I've been doing this.

I've, I even. There was a time when I would even tweet some football stuff just 'cause I don't watch the games like religiously, like if it's on. And because my son now he's 13, so he he'll want to watch like we live in Louisville and his mom grew up a little fan. So they'll want to watch some of those games and other like what he calls, you know, the big time games that like he wants to

watch like the the the top. Like he doesn't want to watch Indiana Ruckers football, which, I mean, I don't blame him. I mean, I don't either watch the Indiana basketball games. So there was a time when I would chime in with my thoughts on social media. I just, I don't honestly know enough about football to to tell you exactly what's going wrong.

But when you watch it and you watch some of these other teams, it's the talent level and the coaching is just not the same at Indiana. It is these other Big 10 programs. I mean, it's as simple as that. And I think it's a bigger discussion than just Tom Allen and whatever players are on this Ross right now.

It's more of an institutional commitment I think to say we have to make this a bigger priority and we're going to use the whatever resources that need to be committed to this to make this work have not been committed to. I mean you can give a coach a contract and you can say you're going to do these things, but just look around the league and look at watch the other teams play and Indiana is not anywhere close. I mean that's that's just that's just the the reality. It's sobering.

But I mean, I feel like the other problem that that that they would have even if they did get the right coach, just with how the program's been for such a long period of time, Would you be able ever to keep that person in place, right.

Would you like if they. Because if they came in Indiana and won really big for a couple years, they're going to use it to go somewhere else because someone's going to look at them and say, wow, if they can win in Indiana, they can definitely win at our school with more resources.

So and I don't know the financials of all of it and what it would take to kind of get it going in the right direction, but it's clear that it's it's not working right now and obviously I don't cover cover the program so I'm not there in a day and day I'll base this. I will say that I've met Tom Allen a couple times at at Huber's during the tailgate tour. He seems like a great, a great guy. I know there's a lot of heat on

him right now. And I would just remind people to to remember that he does have family and you know and all that and to just you know express your anger however you want to express it but try to separate the coach from the person. I do think he's a a really stand up guy, but it's clearly from anybody I mean and I can get some texts from friends that are maybe a little bit more doubt into football like did you watch the game today? I'm like, no, man, I'm out.

I'm outside picking up, please, in my yard. I got. I got a beside city. Yeah we call that you football but but it's it's just not, I don't know. I mean I'd be interested you watch it far more closely than I do. But am I am I wrong in saying that it? It's a it's more of a commitment to like we have to like really revamp this and get the right. It's not just the coach, right. There's, there's there's more to it than.

There is a couple things like First off, as as a podcast that does both football and basketball, of you were smart to just focus on basketball cuz A it's more fun, but B like when we look at our numbers like. The football podcast kind of start well then just it's just off a Cliff and then when basketball starts our numbers go back up.

So and this is the point of the pod that no one's listening so you can say any of your deepest darkest secrets because once they hear football everyone's tuned out. A couple things you know we we've brought this up before you know the last I'd say 10 to 12 years IU has really focused on providing resources to football. They. They finished both the end zones.

They've increased the the facilities like they've done a really good job of focusing on football, making the game day experience better, kind of provide and paying coaches and assistant coaches more. I think the trouble is they basically just advocated doing that from the end of World War 2 to like 2009. So, like from 1945, like for 50 years, they were just kind of like they they they treated football for the most part, as an afterthought.

And then when Mallory is there, it's like oh that's great we'll we'll we'll be OK in football but we're going to focus on basketball. So I think the trouble is like now they're they're starting to put resources in which is great but you still have that 50 year deficit where you you've got to play catch up at some point which means you've got to spend more than you know I'm not even talk about Michigan or Ohio State but like Minnesota like or Purdue or Purdue.

Yeah, it's like the the the 40 year gap that you just let them lap you like. You're going to have to pay put double into facility into something more than you know then they do. And I think the trouble Indiana has in football wise now is like the the game has changed again and we're not prepared in that. It's the nil era like we mentioned earlier for you know, for basketball and scheduling. But it's like football's got a real existential problem. Is like you, you basically haven't had.

A a functional program for a while and there's not a lot of memories that fans, you know I went to IU during the Cameron era. I remember we had game day there for Ohio State. We lost like 58 to three or something. It's like you know Randall had a couple of good plays. I don't. I don't have any great memories outside of sitting with Gale and drinking and like the I've memories of football that don't

involve football. Under any period of basketball, even if we had you know we we haven't been to a Final Four in a while like you mentioned like there's still two wins against Purdue last year. There's I mean back-to-back years we beat Purdue. You know even under the Archie era, there's a couple of wins there that that are memorable. You know you have in the cream years.

I mean you're beating Michigan at home for, you know that the number one seed in the country like obviously the Watford shot like. You can take a 5 year period and anybody who went to IU is going to have memories of basketball. It's like dude that was fun like that was a really good time. I remember this game and that play.

I remember she he I remember you know Tom Coverdale like you just you players you remember football hasn't built that up like they just haven't and they they did for like a two year window but they've lost a lot of that goodwill now and I think that's the trouble is like now they're looking at fans like we need nil dollars which they do but it's like you're looking at a fan base like you haven't given them anything to be excited about for 40 years and now you're asking him to give

money. I think that's a problem. The other thing I would say is I hear what you said a lot of you know if we get a good coach and he's going to get hired away. I, I, I look at a if I'm IE you like you can't do you can't look at that as a problem because my counter to that always is that when that happens it'll be the first time like go back and look at our football coaches like they've all been fired or left. Like we've never had a coach hired away by a better football

program. It hasn't happened and the one time it felt like it might happen with Alan we got freaked out. I still think the contract was right. I still think the extension was right at that time. It hasn't. Nobody could have expected it would go this wrong.

But it's like that. That's I think where if you're IU, you have to realize that this is where you are in the pecking order, that yes, if whoever our next coach is, whenever that happens, if they have a ton of success, more than likely they are going to be hired by somebody else. And that has to be viewed as a good thing, not something to be scared of or try and stop it. Because we're just not a

destination yet. And you have to look at it kind of like, you know Michigan State football where it's like they had Saban he left that they got to a point where they are now somewhat of a destination. I I don't know I I look at it as like it's just like you've got to you've got to start making some right decisions. You've got to kind of play catch up. But I still look at it in a positive way in that you know you're you're still like I talked to my dad about this all the time.

He's like who would want to coach here. It's like well any coach who's not in the Big 10 of the SEC should want to coach here because we should be able to we should be able to pay more than anybody else out of those out of those two. So it's like there's 40 schools that we we can't hire from, but there's a, you know, 300 other schools, like all those coaches want to come here.

And that's The thing is like if you're coaching at, you know, Colorado State or Washington State or you know, Ball State, I'm not picking on schools. It's like you're coaching at any school, if not in the Big 10 or the SEC, you want to coach here because there's only 40 jobs like that and Indiana is one of those. It's not the best, but it's going to pay more than any of those who are damn well better

if IU wants to compete. So I don't know, that's a lot of ranting on on a couple of points there. I think that I think that nil two is like a huge problem not going forward for Indiana football, because I think most people that want to give nil money are going to give to basketball. Want to go to basketball, right? And not only do you need more, more dudes in football, you need way more. I mean, look at the size of the roster that you're going to have to develop the depth and have

the. Amount of players to be able to compete and it's only gonna get tougher with when they're bringing in UCLA, USC, Oregon and Washington. I mean these are all, it's not like they're bringing in any programs that are even close to Indiana's level. I mean their their Indiana's now falling down even further in the pecking order and and football's almost more of a collective.

Like you need just that collective fan base cuz like at least in basketball it's like and I've not given to NILI think it's great the players get it. I just it's not something that I've dove into deep yet. But it's like if you're if you're a donor, it's like, all right, I'm going to you know, pick. I'm just, I will not say that like pick a basketball player. It's like I'm going to give him

$25,000. And it's like you can do that in basketball because you can kind of pick that it's in football you need money for like the offensive lineman who you don't know their name but it's like you need to somehow get them 20, thirty $40,000. Not a lot of donors who want to do that. So you need a collective, and for a collective you need kind of that like inertia of years of being excited and willing to give.

And I think you're 100% right. I I think this is where it actually helps basketball and hurts football even more nil. Because basketball is kind of like it unlocks people being like, yeah, I love basketball. I want it like, you know there's there's a small group of fans who like, I wish I you was paying players back in the day. It's like, well, now you can and now it's unlocked and now we can play the same game Kentucky and Kansas did in our in in our mind.

But I I just don't think it's there for football. And it's like I as a fan, I'm like, I don't trust anything football's done in the last 20-30 forty years. To just say, hey, here's 20 grand a year to figure it out. It's like I don't trust them. But you you need to have that trust. And I don't also don't think it's the best environment right now to be asking people to donate. And I owe money to football right when your team is not performing.

I mean people, a lot of people with the money that could actually make a difference will probably respond with. Maybe get a change in the coach or get somebody else in here and get trying to shift the public perception of the momentum of the program and then I'd be willing to do something. But like right now it just feels like it's kind of a hopeful

situation. I mean, I've just read some of the things that that Zach's written and a couple of the other people in the media and it's just like there's you can only. Sugarcoat it for so long and it sometimes it at some point it just kind of is what it is and it it doesn't look like it's going to turn around anytime soon. I made this as one of our pre

this is a couple weeks ago. I made it as one of our premium sub stack videos but I'll I'll let you know now like this is all tongue in cheek and on a funny joke a total tongue in cheek. But I've joked like this is the problem. Indiana athletics has like to me the solution is please this is total joke. It's like you need to find a way to unlock money for football, but it's all going to basketball.

So my thing is like you just, you hire Brad Stevens as your football coach and it's like that's where you unlock all the money. And then it's like, hey, Woody, you're good for the next six year. Whatever. You pick a year because he's 63 and it's like, I I honestly, I'm, I'm joking, but I'm kind of half serious. And I think if you know, 'cause when Archie was fired, it's like there was like, boom, $10 million for Stevens. So it's like immediately

available. I I do think there's people who'd be like, hey, man, I would gladly pay 10 million right now to get Brad Stevens in six years. And again, you're not pushing what's again all joke, but it's like there's a world where you do that. And then it's like there's also this alternate world where it's like, I mean Stevens is a good coach. I know it's been basketball. But like he knows how to run organizations. Like maybe he gets the football

Tove girl. Then you get this weird spot where it's like, I don't know, man, maybe we keep around on the football side. Like we hire a different football, we hire a different basketball coach. And I was just, it was a thought I had. I did a whole like 10 minute let me. Ask you this, I know we've been on a little long, so that's that's to wrap up, but who? Who would they like?

What would be like a successful hire for IU to somebody that can consistently like, go six and six and make a bowl game? Yeah, I think so. I mean I think the thing that we've looked at on Crimson cast that we've talked about in the past is you know where where I use had struggles is when you hire somebody who is a coordinator or doesn't have head coaching experience and is trying to learn it on the job.

And that's a in football. It is just it's different than basketball in that like the head coach in football and I think you've seen giving Tom Allen the benefit of the doubt. You know he's the trouble he's had is where he's like I'm good at defense. So I'm going to continue to coach defense while being a head coach. And like you see this all the time like Kevin Wilson had. He came in and kind of had his hands too much in offense.

And it's like in football being the head coach is like that's a just it's a manager job. Like you are in charge of a program, which I know is kind of like a no dumb moment, but it's like it's true And there's always a learning curve of assistance taking like one or two years in football to kind of figure that out. When you look at when we've had success, whether it's Mallory or Hepner, it's guys who had head coaching experience at a lower level and then was able to kind

of plug that in right here. So I'm, I think that's what you'd want to do. But you know it doesn't always work like I, you know analogizing it back to basketball. Like I I know we've been on too long don't want to get into Archie. But it's like that's the thing with Archie that never I find it fascinating. I don't want to learn more about it. It's like everything about Archie should have worked like he has a defensive mentality. His guys played really hard. He was a great coach at a mid

major. It's like just give the guy more resources and you are off to the races. But yet you see it time and time again.

Sometimes mid major coaches it works and sometimes it doesn't and I've I've been fascinated with that in basketball because Archie didn't work but at the time he like he was the best coach available and all signs pointed to it should work and I still don't quite know why it didn't but it didn't but I mean that's in in my mind in football like that's take one variable out take the variable of a guy having to learn how to be a coach head coach out and just now try and figure out which mid

major coach is going to give you the best shot. And like I said, again, go into it knowing that in three years, if they're successful, they're going to leave and that's great. And then just do it again. Well said. Now go do it anyway. Alex, check them out inside the hall. It's been an absolute honor. I love having you on. I love your insights. And for everybody out there, thank you for sticking on through football talk and everything else. Appreciate you listening for Crimson Cast.

This is Scott signing off.