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Hi everyone, I'm Bernabé Brown and I'd love to tell you about a new series that's launching on Unlocking Us. I'm calling it the On My Heart and Mind Podcast series. It's going to include conversations with some of my favorite writers on topics ranging from revolutionary love and gun ownership to menopause and finding joy and grief. The first episode is available
now and I can't wait for you to hear it. All new episodes will drop on Wednesdays and you can get them as soon as they're out by following Unlocking Us on Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of violence. Please use discretion. Tell me about your father. Well, his name was Antoine Francois, but the funny thing is because in Haiti people always have nicknames. So for the longest, we thought our dead name was Rina Is, but
he goes by the name of Francis. He was strict. He was very, very strict. My only job, my dead will tell me your only duty is to go to school. Maritionard's father grew up in the Dominican Republic. He moved to Haiti as a teenager. Then he met Marie's mother. I didn't know my mom very well. She left me when I was three months old. My grandmother and my dead will tell me my stepmom didn't have kids until
I was about 10 years old. Give or take. So I was, I was the only kids around for a long time and my grandma pretty much raised me with my dad. When she was growing up, the president of Haiti was Jean-Claude Duvalier. He'd been president Marie's whole life. He became president at age 19 when his father, Francois Duvalier, who people called Papa Doc died. People called him Baby Doc.
A dictatorship. It's what he was. You know, you told what to do, went to do it. Now I remember being, you know, told time to go to bed like people could not be out on the streets and stuff like that. Francois Duvalier, or Papa Doc, was known for ordering Haiti's secret police to commit over 30,000 murders. Minicier, it's what they called them. And they're where like navy blue uniforms.
They were officially called the taunt-taunt Makoot, after a mythical character said to kidnap children and eat them for breakfast. When Marie was seven, people started protesting after the public beating of a pregnant woman by police. The government sent soldiers and machine guns to patrol the streets. But protests kept happening. Entire cities came together and refused to go to work. People signed a petition saying Jean-Claude Duvalier, or Baby Doc, was keeping Haitians in quote slavery.
The police started killing and arresting protesters. By the time Marie was eight, students were boycotting class. And then the government closed schools. This was in 1986. Protesters passed out flyers for quote, operation approved. I remember it, you know, quite vividly. I was only nine years old, about to be nine years old. To try to fix this public image, Baby Doc drove around the capital, throwing cash from
his car windows. It didn't work. Protesters blocked roads, destroyed government offices, and burned a courthouse. Baby Doc declared a state of siege and announced he was suspending some civil liberties, like freedom of speech, the right to assemble peacefully, and to see a judge if he were arrested. And then he fled the country. Marie remembers seeing people retaliating against anyone who is part of Baby Doc's regime.
Before out in the street, beheading those people. When my house was my grandmother's house, it's like an corner of a four-way street. You know, you used to have multiple bodies. It's being burned there. They would get them from their house, drag them out to the street. The best way to do it, because they feel like beheading was too much of a mercy killing,
because there was no pain being inflicted. So the best way to do it was to put tires around them and set them on fire with gasoline burning them alive. After a few more years of protests and strikes and multiple election attempts, there was an election planned for December 1990. I remember my grandmother singing like, this is the first time in her life being able to vote. So it was like, you know, that's the time you thought, things going to change.
That's when really my dad started to get into local politics. He joined a group in their neighborhood supporting a new political movement called Lavelas, the Haitian Creole word for flood and avalanche. Then the Lavelas backed Canada, won Haiti's first free democratic election. His name was John Bertranda-Aristide, and he was a Catholic priest. You know, we thought that's going to be a big change. You know, it's a priest what could go wrong having a priest for a president.
President Aristide was inaugurated in February 1991. Marieva members her father got bigger roles in the Lavelas movement, so they moved to the city. But less than eight months later, there was a coup and military leaders took over again. They arrested anyone who supported President Aristide and soldiers deliberately shot civilians in public. There were reports that people could be arrested, tortured, or killed for as little as looking at a photo of the former president.
All I know when the coup happened, my dad went and hiding, there were hunting anybody who was in the Lavelas party. So I was sent to my grandmother, who lived in a little town called Zima, which is a little bit far out in the country really. Nobody would have any business going over there, and my dad wasn't hiding. So I stayed there for a while until one day my dad sent for me. The inner stepmother and four half siblings left home in the middle of the night. Marie
was 14. They walked for two hours to the ocean. Eventually they reached the shore and got on a boat. It was still dark. And we got so sick. We, I was sick. My stepmom was sick. My brothers were always like sick. We were sick, sick, sick. Until this day I can get in the ocean. They were on an oversized fishing boat. It's a handmade boat. It wasn't, you know, and you use pedal. You know, you pedal the boat. There was no mortar or anything like that.
And how many people were on the boat with you? Maybe 150 people. We were packing a lack sardine. People was the sun top of people. But the sea was rough. So we ended up only getting to Latot too. And when we got there and we couldn't go any farther for whatever reason, we ended up having to head back. And when we head back, my stepmom said, I ain't doing this again. You know, so we stayed in hiding for about a week. And we got back again.
This time, just Marie and her father got on the boat because I was, you know, I would be an orphan if my dad never come back. And I would be an orphan. So my dad said, if we all, if we're gonna perish, we're gonna perish together. I would not, I would not wish this, you know, up on my worst enemy because person who's navigating the boat doesn't know where they going. For one thing, it's like, we're gonna just navigate it. If we lend
somewhere, we lend somewhere. Marie says she thought they could all die on the boat and thought that maybe her father believed that would be better than being killed at home. If they would catch my dad, it would be all over again, what I used to see when I was younger with people being beheaded and worse, you know, being burned alive. And the only thing I could think of is if you're gonna die, die in your own term, and we used to own
couple of fishing boats. So he loved the ocean. So, you know, I didn't want to die, but I'm guessing like, if that's how he's gonna go, I think that's the way he would want to go. Then they were approached by another boat. It was the US Coast Guard. Tell me about what happened when the boat was intercepted. So when the boat was intercepted, you know, got into this huge vessel. I thought it was a house on the ocean. You know, it's just
like, you couldn't even feel the movement when you were in the vessel. So we were processed that issue us an idea with the number. Everybody was in a few families stays together. I think we spent maybe three days on the boats in the Coast Guard. Through Gravvine, you hear, you were not going to the US. Finally, Marie found out where they were going. They say we were going to Cuba. Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.
In 1991, thousands of people on boats from Haiti were intercepted by the US Coast Guard. Under US refugee law, you're not supposed to turn people away if they have a well-founded fear of political persecution. But what happened was they were interviewed on the boat. And many of them were simply returned. They never got any closer to the United States. This is Harold Hungruco from Yale Law School Studio. I just finished today my 39th year of teaching.
That's a really long time. I was a young man when I began. As a young professor, Harold Co. co-founded a human rights legal clinic at Yale where students would work on cases. By November 1991, there were more than a thousand Haitian refugees held on Coast Guard boats. An official told the New York Times, this thing is coming to a boil. Then two students walked into Harold Co's office to ask him a question. And they asked me whether we would bring a lawsuit against the US government.
They'd heard that the Coast Guard boats had gotten so full of refugees that they'd started taking people straight back to Haiti without thoroughly screening them for asylum. And we thought that was illegal. The question was whether we should file our own lawsuit. In fact, it was kind of crazy to do it. The US government with a bunch of kids, yeah, crazy insane, insane. But they weren't members of the bar. If I didn't file on it and sign the pleadings, there was no lawsuit.
So he said okay. I thought we should at least start drafting papers and see what they looked like. A few days later, a student slipped a memo under his door, outlining potential legal arguments. Then two memos, then six, then zeroxed case files and annotated law review articles. His voice mailbox filled up and more than once he came to work to find his door, covered in posted notes. You know, I just got in tenure at Yale Law School and I thought, you know, I had actually
been pretty cautious about the way I lived my life to that point professionally. And I thought, if I'm not ready to take the chance, who will? And I had told the students that they should live up to their principles because my father had been betrayed by people who didn't live up to their principles. Harold's father, Kwong Lim Kho, had been a law professor too. He was the first Korean from his island, Jeju Island, ever to study law in Seoul, which
is amazing accomplishment. And then the first student from Seoul, ever to study law in America. He was accepted to Harvard Law School and became the US ambassador for a new democratic government of South Korea, established after mass student protests. About six months after that, this was in 1961, the government was overthrown by a military coup.
His father put together a meeting at the Korean Embassy in Washington, D.C., asking people to take an oath that they wouldn't work for the new Supreme Council of military leaders. Sixty people signed the pledge within a year or two later. The only one who kept the pledge was my father. The leader of the coup would stay in power for almost 20 years. A US national security official helped Harold's father get a job.
He said, by the way, what are you doing? Now that this coup has occurred, and my father said, well, I'm a political exile. I have six children and I'm unemployed. And one week later, my family, six children, parents, each carrying one suitcase, we came to New Haven. Harold's parents both started teaching at Yale Law School. And less than 25 years later, Harold did the same thing. When you were first approached by the students asking you to get involved, did you think about your father?
That's all I thought about. That's not true. I thought about my father. I also thought about my wife and children. You know, it's very risky, suing the US government. I had served in the US government. They have huge resources. They have an advantage in the courts. And the pace of litigation is brutal. We had to win. There's no point bringing the case just to lose. We recruited about 150 students, and they all worked on it around the clock for free while they're doing their schoolwork.
And then, over spring break, Harold and the students took a train to federal court in Brooklyn and filed the case. A different lawsuit in Florida had temporarily stopped the government from taking people back to Haiti, but the Coast Guard needed somewhere to send thousands of people. What did you know about Guantanamo at the time? I knew two things that there was a song called Guantanamo about the girl from Guantanamo.
I knew the movie A Few Good Men, where Tom Cruise plays a Navy Jag Officer defending some people who were charged with executing a code red on the Guantanamo naval base. That's all I knew. When you got to Guantanamo, what was the first thing that happened when you got off the boat? Well, you know, we were lining up. They give everybody a little package, which have your blanket, soap, toothbrush. You got rid of what you had on. They give you a uniform.
You got tested. You have to have tested again and tested for what? People were getting tested to see if you're sick for whatever disease that you may have. Marie, who was 14 at the time, remembers they were assigned numbers. My number was T1286. My father was T0126. I was only called by my name, by my dad or, you know, the other Haitians. But through everybody else, I was T1286. They gave Maria Photo ID. She still has it. What do you look like in that picture?
Granny little kids. No smile. I have a baseball cap in my head. My hair was disheveled. I mean, this is, I wish I was that size again though. But a scary looking kids, I looked like I was afraid for my life. Marie's father told her she might be interviewed about why they left. If they ask a question, just tell the truth, will he? The immigration and naturalization service was conducting screening interviews, meant
to determine whether people qualified for a full asylum hearing in American court. They had sent officials to the Coast Guard Boats to ask the screening questions. And the interviews were going on on boats. They would sometimes last for, we were told 30 seconds to two minutes. Once they got on shore, the screening interview stretched out to sometimes 10 or 15 or 20 minutes. But they were being conducted without lawyers for people
who couldn't speak English. So depending on the kind of question you were asked, you could give an answer that would make sure you got returned to Haiti. So if the question was, are you fleeing from political persecution because you're a member of La Vellasse and a supporter of President Aristide, that should be sufficient for you to get an asylum interview. But often there being asked, do you want a better life in America?
The answer to that question was also yes. But that could mean that you're an economic migrant. In which case you would simply be returned. You could have multiple interview with multiple different people just to try, I guess, to try to catch you in the live. Like if people won't tell them the truth, the story wasn't always consistent. The government kept count of the screenings. From 1981 to 1991, they interviewed 23,000
people. And only 28 were allowed into America. But Marie felt sure that she and her father would get a hearing because of her father's work with a La Vellasse party. I know there was no way there would send us back meaning like my dad and myself, based on our story. Being a naive kid taught maybe I'll be there for a few weeks. Marie says that at Guantanamo, they were fed packaged military meals.
My favorite was the omelets with the hot sauce, Tabasco sauce in it. They slept on cocks and assigned tents. It was a massive camp. Tants after tent, green tents. We have like camp one through camp seven. Camp seven, we all know that's where all if you get into fight, you would get arrested. I would send you to that camp. Camp seven was the gel camp. It's what I call it. I was in camp three. Camp three was mostly families, people who have adult who have children. So it was family camp.
Marie and her father were waiting for news. Then they heard they were going to have to leave camp three because Marie's father had tested positive for HIV. They were sent to a separate camp called camp balkyly. We learned that they had segregated a group of about 250 Haitians who all had clear asylum campaigns. They were fleeing from political persecution, but they had also contracted the HIV virus. I thought the US government was out of its mind. We'll be right back.
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When Professor Harold Koeh heard that the US government had sent a group of HIV-positive detainees to a separate camp on Guantanamo, they couldn't believe it. What kind of public health directive are they considering? To segregate them in a place that was, you know, dirty water, lots of insects under tremendous heat was essentially
putting them in life-threatening conditions. Nothing could be more medically dangerous than to put 220 to 250 immunosuppressed people in unsanitary conditions in a prison camp. If one person got sick of an infectious disease, everybody would get it. And so that group of people who we call the HIV positive became our most dramatic concern. Harold Koeh and the Yale Law students asked US immigration for access to the detained Haitians at Guantanamo, but didn't hear back.
Well, the first argument was that they needed lawyers. I don't know if you've seen the great case Gideon against Wainwright, which is you have a right to a lawyer before your sentence to a felony. These people were potentially being sent back to their death and they didn't have lawyers. So it started as a case about Gideon against Wainwright. But then it became a case about the detention of people on Guantanamo, so it became like
Kauramata through the Japanese internment case. Can you hold people of color in the detention camp without charging them with any sort of crime? When the group from Yale went to file in federal court in Brooklyn, the case had to be assigned to judge. They were hoping for someone specific. You have to go to the clerk's office and put your name on the wheel, which means you get
whatever judges randomly selected. So I was standing there with the opposing counsel from the US Attorney's Office and they spun the wheel. What do you mean spun the wheel of fortune? What is that? Yeah, that's how you get your judge. They literally spin a wheel. Is this the common practice this wheel? Every court in the country, every federal court in the country, yeah. Go on the wheel
as the term. So they pulled the judges name out from the available duty judges and said Sterling Johnson, Jr. This was not the judge they were hoping for. Harold never heard of Sterling Johnson, Jr. He'd been appointed to the court about 10 months earlier. And then we went over to the courtroom to wait to go in to see him. And my co-cowsell, Michael Radner, dear friend, looked in and he goes, Harold, he's black. Now it turned
out that he was a Republican. He had been a police officer. But also in his time, he had been a military guard on Guantanamo. Judge Johnson had been stationed on Guantanamo in the 1950s as a young Marine. Harold and the students walked into his courtroom with an emergency request. They were asking Judge Johnson for a temporary restraining order. A pause on all detainee interviews until lawyers were permitted access.
I could tell he was wary but interested. And he wasn't buying the government's position, he wasn't necessarily buying ours either. And no civilian lawyer had been to Guantanamo to that point ever. The government was allowing almost everybody else to go to the island. Filmmakers, piano tuners had been down there, but not lawyers. The government lawyers took the position that the students in co-head no idea what they were talking about. Author and law professor, Brand Goldstein.
This case should be dismissed immediately. The US Constitution does not apply to Guantanamo. No other federal law applies to Guantanamo. We can do whatever we want to these refugees. We can be arbitrary, we can be capricious, we can even be cruel. That's a quote in the court record. And at one point in the first hearing, they said, we're going to bring out a general
so-and-so to testify. And we're going to bring down the slisser general of the United States, Ken Star, and Judge Johnson said, I'm from Bed's die, which is actually, but you can't intimidate me. And then we thought, what did you have a chance? So what happened? I gave us a temporary restraining order, which lasts for 10 days, which meant that we could
start to assemble a team to actually go to Guantanamo to meet our clients. And then we had to prepare for a preliminary junction hearing where we could turn the temporary restraining order into something that would last throughout the trial. While they were preparing for the next hearing, less than a week after the case began, the US Department of Justice filed a motion against them for bringing a lawsuit that was frivolous,
asking that Harold pay for their lawyers and court fees. And they asked him to post a bond, $10 million, even though he wasn't a criminal defendant. I checked to see if there was an insurance policy for clinicians at Yale, and there was one for doctors and a million dollar deductible, which meant that we would lose our house. If they prevailed on this motion, we would lose our house. And I went home and I held my
life. I think our house here is at risk. And she had been a bankruptcy lawyer and she said, well, if necessary, we can declare bankruptcy. They tried to challenge the government motion. I gathered the students at my house and I said, if we lose this motion, I lose this house. If we win the motion, it's not frivolous. So we have to win. And I said, give it everything you have because this is not just play acting at doing the government anymore. This is for real.
Harold would take the train back and forth from New Haven to New York City to argue the case. One time he was in Grand Central Station and got word that Judge Johnson wanted him to address the court right then. And I went into the Grand Central Station, Hyatt, and I went to the restaurant, which had an open for lunch yet. And I said, do you have a speaker phone here? And they said, yeah, at the Matrudee station. So they sent me up. I called the judge. And as I'm arguing,
people are coming up and trying to get their table to sit down at the restaurant. And I thought I was sort of waving them away, but I didn't want to acknowledge that I was even having these other people around me. Anyway, we won that motion. And we won a lot of them. Judge Johnson was more and more sympathetic to us as time went on. After they got the temporary restraining order, the students flew to Guantanamo on a military plane from a base in South Carolina.
They developed personal relations with the refugees, many of whom were at the same age. They were excited to see that there were young kids and their 20s who were fighting for them. But they also, I think, were a little suspicious. Why are you doing it? What's in it for you? What are your chances of success? Harold Coe didn't visit himself until much later. Your members leaving on a tiny propeller-driven plane. It took hours to get there because they had to go around Cuban airspace. Anyway, we
planned. And they took us to this huge aircraft hangar. Some of the Haitian detainees were gathered inside. And I gave a speech and I said, my father was a refugee like you. And people helped him get to America. That's why I'm here. I think they were relieved to see that I was not Caucasian. But I think they weren't quite sure what the Korean American was doing. And there was a moment of indecision about whether they accept our representation. And then a guy got
up in a Creole Haitian and he gave a speech. It turned out when he said, they're here to help us. And I saw their names in a dream so we should accept their friendship. Harold asked the soldiers to take him to the camp where they were being held. There was this barbed wire. It was a prison camp. It wasn't a refugee camp. And people were behind the fence. And they had been wearing t-shirts and shorts that they were given
by Catholic release services. So they were wearing t-shirts as they'd things like Miami dolphins or Miami heat. And when I got out of the car, they all started gathering and moving toward the fence because they just seen me inside the hangar. And suddenly about four or five of the Haitians ran to the fence and just grabbed the fence, grabbing the barbed wire. And their hands were just bleeding and they were shaky. And they started screaming,
Harold, Harold. And in French they were saying, free us. And the soldiers were so freaked out. They told me to get back in the car. And we drove away. And at this point, all of them are screaming at the top of their lungs. Harold. And for the rest of the time I worked on the case, I would wake up in the middle of the night. And I think if I don't get them out, that's what they'll be shouting when they go back on the boats. So I thought I got
to get them out. It was worse than you could have imagined. Well, talking to me, it means to be a lawyer. You take on somebody's representation and they don't have anybody else. And you better give it everything you've got. Because if you don't, and you fail, you don't pay the price. In April 1992, Judge Johnson extended Harold and the students' access to Guantanamo. But
the president, George H. W. Bush, didn't want them there. It was an election year. No president wants to look like they can't control immigration. The Justice Department appealed Judge Johnson's order. The case made its way to the Supreme Court. Normally, a lawsuit gets to the Supreme Court, if at all, once in three to five years. This case went to the Supreme Court five or six times in the first year. And the pace
was just insane. I had never argued a case in court before. I probably argued 25 to 30 times in about a year and a half. I probably stayed up all night working on briefs 50 times. The Justice Department applied for a stay, which is an innocuous sounding term. And it effectively, it packs a punch because it effectively tears up Judge Johnson's order and says, we're now, it doesn't mean anything. You can't go to Guantanamo. You can't interfere
with what they're doing. Students at Yale were in Harold Kose office and heard the decision over the phone. The Supreme Court had cited with the Justice Department. Harold Kose and his students wouldn't be allowed to investigate asylum hearings in person anymore. And that was it. Kose and the students had, and the other human rights were that
no access to Guantanamo. Brand Goldstein says that immigration officials immediately started interviewing people again, deciding whether to send them back to Haiti. They sent back as many people as they possibly could. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It started at 6 a.m. Then President Bush decided to make another move from his vacation home in Kenny Bonkport, Maine. Bush decides, you know what? Forget bringing any more Haitians
to Guantanamo. We have thousands there. It's too many. And he issues what amounts to a direct return order. He basically said, we're not bringing people to Guantanamo anymore. If people come, we'll just pick them up and bring them back. People would be returned to Haiti without being considered for asylum. They were told they could try again from the embassy in Port-Aprins. Now, you have to remember this was just after
the Berlin Wall had been knocked down. This was essentially a floating Berlin Wall. You know, people were trying to flee from persecution. And they were picking them up on boats and bringing them back. It wasn't a humanitarian mission because they could have brought them anywhere except Haiti, but they were bringing them back to Haiti. And among other things,
they were forcing them off the boats with fire hoses. So we called it the Kenny Bonkport Order because you know, something issued from someone's vacation home essentially spelled doom for many, many people. They'd expedited the decisions for the people waiting at Guantanamo. And soon there were very few people left. Marie Jeanard was still there with her father. It's literally deserted because there was, you know, really no more people left except
for these people who were HIV positive. She says that conditions improved. They were sleeping under roofs instead of tents. What was your day to day like? My day to day, I would wake up in the morning. My dad had kitchen duties. We actually have like a kitchen where we could actually cook some decent food by 11 o'clock, you know, 10 o'clock. We would be done. We used to play cards and dominoes from like, I don't know from anywhere from two
o'clock to five o'clock in the evening. Once in a while, we would get a movie. And I remember the first movie I ever, ever watched an American movie was Basic and Stink. Wow. That's quite a choice for a 13 year old. Yes. Sometimes she says they were allowed to watch Terminator 2, Judgment Day. There's no school, no education, no nothing. And you just sleep and do it again the next day. They had no idea how much longer they would be there. The lawyers weren't coming
anymore. There were no journalists, very few doctors and no information. There were rumors that no one would be allowed out of the camp until scientists found a cure for AIDS or that they were all going to be sent back to Haiti. And a lot of us and myself and all the kids, we resented our parents. I mean, you were so young, were you talking to the other kids about how your parents had tested positive for HIV? Yeah. So yeah, we talked about
it. But we were as kids, we were so green watch with what our parents was telling us, you know, our parents telling us that, yeah, we're not really HIV positive. It's a lie. They're just saying that because they don't want us to go to the US. So, you know, all those people, they were political asylum seekers who were deemed to be asylum seekers. And, but they
couldn't send them. So they were like, yeah, it's probably the employer just to make sure, like, even though we all, we all qualify, we are deemed as political, but they didn't want us to come here. So they just put the sting on us and like, we were, we have AIDS. I think, I think until the day my dad died, he was in denial that he was HIV positive. Some of
the asylum seekers were getting sicker. The doctors at the camp said they asked you a immigration to evacuate everyone with AIDS because they didn't have good enough facilities to treat them. Some women at the camp said they were pressured into birth control injections that caused bleeding for months. The detainees started to organize protests. One woman did a lot of planning. She has not to be named. Here she is speaking in an Amnesty International News conference.
I even told the colonel I am willing to give my life for the others so we can be treated, for the so the rest can be treated as human. And I started the hunger strike. I even wrote a letter to my parents in Haiti and I said, you no longer have a child because I will give my life to save the other Haitians at Bontanamo Bay. It would get violent. Sometimes I, a few times I remember I was getting really violent out there. They used to do those pee bomb. I guess you would call it. We have buckets.
That's what we had to be on at night time because nobody, you're not going to get up and go to the portal party. So people would have those buckets fill it with pee and then create a pee bomb to throw at the militaries when they get bad. The next day, there were more protests. Other people tried to sneak out. US soldiers swept the camp in the middle of the night and arrested 31 people. US immigration had given the parents in the camp an option to give up custody of their
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Maresianard learned that the immigration and naturalization service had given her father a choice. If he waived his parental rights, she could leave Guantanamo and be sent to the US without him. My father refused to sign the paperwork to hand me over to the custody of the court. And it wasn't just my father. It was many of the parents. I think their mentality was we were their last ticket to come to the US. They believed the minute they
give up their rights to us miners. They would take us and they would shinnon back to Haiti. And nobody wanted to do that. Nobody wanted to do that. They were like, if we hold on, eventually they would have to get, it was like that we come in as a unit. We want to go as a unit. But I think as time progresses and they realize the American, we call them the white people who weren't playing. So eventually, I think my dad was one of the last person
to actually sign the paperwork with consent toward me to the court. Did you want him to let you go to the US? Absolutely. I did not want to be there anymore. I told my dad if he didn't want me to sign the paperwork for me to send me, then release the consent for me to go back to Haiti. I didn't want to be there. Nobody would want to be there. I mean, for a while it was fun being there, no school, no homework. But after a while,
you start missing, you know, you start missing the food you used to eat. You miss your friends. You had your family. You don't have anybody. When I was there, I was molested. I didn't want to be there. It wasn't fun for me. I wanted to go. If I couldn't go to the US, I wanted to be, I wanted to go home. And my dad knew that. Eventually, her father told her that he'd given up his custody rights. A few weeks later, Marie was called to leave.
I was super excited, super, super excited. I have, I got called. I went to the processing center at that processing center. Usually you there for a couple of days and then they call you a number again. So you get on the plane to come to the US. You go to Miami. And then once you get to Miami, they put you in a half way house and then await your final destination or wherever your pet, first appearance is located. So when I went my first time and
went to the processing center, I didn't get called again. So I got sent back to my dad. And my dad was highly pissed off. And I was, I was highly disappointed. And I thought, oh my gosh, am I back here for good? Am I not? This is not going to happen about a week later. They call my number again. So this time I actually ended up, went through. On March 19th, 1993, Marie was placed with a foster mother in Michigan. I had just
joined 16 and I didn't speak any English. First, she only knew a couple of curse words. No one spoke Haitian Creole. Marie got into biking at school. She played basketball and softball and joined the debate team and yearbook club. She says she remembers camping, a lot of camping. And she got a call from her father once a week.
Harold Coe and the students had continued fighting two separate cases in court. One about whether it was illegal to return people to Haiti without screening interviews or asylum hearings. And what about Guantanamo detaining people who have not been charged with the crime? What was the government's argument? The government's argument was basically that Guantanamo was a land without law, a black hole because of outside the United States. They didn't
have to comply with the Constitution. Guantanamo is a very unusual legal entity in that the United States has since 1903 had a treaty with the Cuban government where the United States has complete jurisdiction and control. That's the term over the area of Cuba, which is called Guantanamo. Each year the US government would send Cuba a rent check for $4,085. But Cuba refused to cash them saying the lease wasn't legitimate. So we just pointed out that it's essentially
an American enclave. The US flag is the only flag that flies there. The only law that applies there is the US law. It looks like middle America. There's a McDonald's, there's a, you know, shopping mall. And the only thing that doesn't apply is the US Constitution according to them, which meant that they could do with these people what they wanted. If that were true, they could discriminate against people based on their race. They could prevent them from worshiping the
God of their choice. They could force pregnant women to have abortions against their consent. And then we found out that iguanas are protected by US environmental law on Guantanamo. So iguanas have rights, but not human beings. One of the government lawyers admitted in court that the government knew the medical care for the detainees with HIV AIDS was inadequate. Brent Goldstein
says this was a turning point. And if that was the turning point in the case, the moment that sealed it was the result of a video recording that the students had gotten their hands on just a few days earlier. And this was a video recording of one of these camp sweeps by the military with the soldiers in riot gear and the M16 weapons and the guard dogs and the bulldozers knocking down gates and barracks. And this is when the judge finally saw exactly how bad things had been. And by the time
they turned off the videotape, the case was effectively over. Then one of the lawyers working with Harold Coe, Joe Trangali said, you could be convicted of murder, your honor, on death row, and you have to be given adequate medical care. But if your Haitian and HIV positive and found to have a well-founded fear of persecution, you're entitled to die. Judge Johnson issued his judgment in June. He said that constitutional rights do apply on Guantanamo
and the government couldn't hold detainees there indefinitely. He said the refugees should be released and that they couldn't be sent back to Haiti. But there was still the risk of an appeal. And then the deputy attorney general called me and said, we will release the 235 HIV positive Haitians if you agree to vacate the precedent that aliens on Guantanamo have due process rights. And I thought, what if they bring more aliens to Guantanamo in the future? Shouldn't we have
this precedent? But then it was pretty clear that this about the lives of 235 people. If we went back to the Supreme Court, we're going to lose the precedent anyway. So we agreed. And they brought them out a couple of weeks later on one plane. Harold Coe went to LaGuardia Airport to meet them. We had them being checked in by immigration. And they were wearing barcoded bracelets like their piece of meat in a grocery store. And suddenly one of the Haitians comes up to me and he
has a piece of paper on which he's written his name. And he points to the barcoded bracelet. He said, this is not my name. And then he holds up the piece of paper. He said, this is my name. This is my name. And there are a couple letters off it was spelled wrong. And then I realized the only reason he had a legal right to be in the United States was because of the court order that we had won. And his name is misspelled in the court order. So if we change his name, he'd have no legal entitlement
to be here. So I went back to him and I said, we can't change it. And he said, why not? And I said, well, this is your Ellis Island. And then he said, what's your name? And I said, call, okay, which he said, where they give that name to you? And I said, Ellis Island. As for the so-called direct return order, the one that President Bush had signed in his vacation home telling the Coast Guard to send people back to Haiti without screening interviews or asylum
hearings, it was still an effect. When Bill Clinton campaigned for President, he promised he would reverse the direct return order. But after he won the election, he kept it in place. Harold co argued that US and international laws going back to after the Holocaust made it illegal to return people fleeing persecution to their persecutors. The Supreme Court announced their
decision in June of 1993, 821. They ruled that the word return didn't mean return, because the refugees were not being returned from anywhere if they were intercepted on the high seas. It's a pretty unpersuasive reading of the law, but the justices were evidently worried about tying the President's hands beyond US borders. So the refugees that were held on Guantanamo, the last few hundred, are allowed into the country, but the direct return order remains.
The prison we know as Guantanamo today was opened the year after 9-11 by President George W. Bush. Well, what do you mind when Guantanamo reopened in 2002? I thought, don't people learn anything. For people who don't think very hard far ahead, Guantanamo looks like a solution, and then it turns out to be a problem. There is no exit strategy. People who are in a crisis bring people there, and then they can't figure a way to get them off. Obama said he'd close it
within a year. Even Trump started to wonder why we had it, and even Bush opened it, said it was a mistake. So it is, you know, Obama said in any number of speeches, is this who we are? Is this who we are? There are 30 men still incarcerated there today. It's still there, so I guess it's who we are. When I heard it was opening again, it just made me think about, wow, we were actually in prison. Because at the time, I don't think any of us thought of it that way, but that's exactly what it was.
Because we were incarcerated for the one and a half years we were in detain. I mean, I don't typically have this conversation. Most people not going to ask you, hey, tell me about your time in Guantanamo Bay. You know, Marie's father was released into the United States a few months after her and came to visit in Michigan. I couldn't go back to my dead even if I wanted to, but I didn't want to.
She says at that point, neither one of them knew the language or the culture, and she felt like she was better off staying with her foster mother. After a few years, Marie's foster mother officially adopted her. We always kind of say, yeah, we were like kind of destined because the March 19th that just passed March 31, 31 year of being a family unit. So we was just joking about that. And I say, yeah, you know, I've been putting up with you for the last 31 years. She said, you've been putting up,
I've been putting up with you. Like, he said, you know how difficult it is to have a teenager who didn't speak your language. I wouldn't be where I'm at today without my mom. That's hands down. Today Marie is married with three children. She lives in Tampa. As for the other kids, Marie was detained with all of them were eventually led into the US. Some joined the US military. One became a well-known chef in New York.
Harold Coe says he's attended some of their graduations. A number of them went to school in Matapan, which is a community of color south of Boston. And I remember being at this graduation and this kid who had come off when he was 12 years old was now 18. And he's wearing his graduation robe. But he's wearing a backward baseball cap instead of a mortar board. And his pants are down around his thighs. And he sort of swagger's across the stage. And the woman sitting
next to me said, isn't that awful? What will he become? And I couldn't resist. And I said, lady, I think he's going to be D.W. L. Law School. This year, there have been more reports of people fleeing gang violence and Haiti. The director's turn order still stands, which means the Coast Guard is intercepting boats and sending Haitians back without a chance to apply for asylum. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Beship is
our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Silicin, and Megan Kenane. Special thanks to Gabrielle Burbe, who helped produce this episode. To learn more about this story, check out Brand Goldstein's book, Storming the Court, how a band of law students fought the president and won. We'll have a link in the show notes. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Seminetti.
Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at ThisIsCriminal.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter at ThisIsCriminal.com slash newsletter. We hope you'll join our new membership program, Criminal Plus. Once you sign up, you can listen to criminal episodes without any ads. And you'll get bonus episodes with me and Criminal Co-Creator Lauren Spore too. To learn more, go to ThisIsCriminal.com
slash plus. We're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal Show, an Instagram at Criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com slash criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. For more than 50 years, Nature Sunshine has been harnessing all the healing power that
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